The Chris Cuomo Project - Dave Rubin on Why We Can’t Trust The Media Anymore

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Dave Rubin (host of “The Rubin Report” and author of “Don’t Burn This Country: Surviving and Thriving in Our Woke Dystopia”) engages in a candid conversation with Chris Cuomo, discussing Rubin’s shift from progressive to classical liberal, his critiques of COVID-19 policies, and his views on mainstream media. They discuss the importance of civil discourse, the societal impacts of lockdowns, and the erosion of public trust in institutions. Rubin shares his concerns about government overreach and media bias, highlighting the need for open and honest dialogue. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dave Rubin is a name you should know if you spend time on social media and He is a really interesting in my opinion thought leader was a progressive now He's a classical liberal. He'll get put in with libertarians plays to the right Big problems with kovat big problems with me and I thought it was really important to sit down and have a conversation Why? It is okay to disagree. It's the only way for there to be growth. But demonizing who you disagree with,

that's cheap, it's counterproductive, and I believe ultimately wrong. So it was good to have a conversation, to go through some of the sticking points. We left a lot of them on the table, but we unpacked a lot of the issues that show why he's so worried about what he's worried about and why I don't quite understand his level of concern.

So here's the conversation. ["The Big Game"] Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from Shopify. I'm wearing my belief in Shopify, okay? The free agent gear I'm selling through Shopify. Why? Because I trust them. They're good at what they do.

Free agent matters to me. It's how we're raising money to crowd source contributions to efforts that we care about. For instance, when we gave money to the kids who were affected in Gaza by all the bombing, that was 10 grand that came from the money I've made selling free agent merch. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you at every stage of your business. You get your launch, your online shop stage, you got the first real-life store stage, all the way to the, hey, did we just hit a million orders? I'm nowhere near that. But Shopify is there to help you grow. Businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. You can sign up. You can get a $1 a month trial period at Shopify.com slash Chris C. That's all lowercase, Chris C, all lowercase.

Go to Shopify.com slash Chris C, grow your business. No matter what stage you're in, Shopify can help. Shopify.com slash Chris C. Brother Ruben. Cuomo, pleasure to meet you. What's happening, man? Good to meet you. I'm happy for your success.

It is not new, but you are having another wave of relevance. Thank you for taking an interest in what I've been doing and it's great to have you in my house. Well, it's good to be here. And you know, it's kind of funny because I've beaten you up quite a bit. Yes, you have. Over time.

Yes, you have. And this is the first time that we're meeting. I said to you right when we sat down that my family growing up in New York, growing up in Long Island, you up quite a bit. Yes, you have. Over time. Yes, you have. And this is the first time that we're meeting. I said to you right when we sat down that my family growing up in New York, growing up in Long Island, like we were a Cuomo family. Your dad was an incredible governor of this state, which has in many respects really fallen apart. I have to say, I've only been in New York for about a day now, but it is nice to see

that the city is kind of humming along and it doesn't seem as bad as it's been over the last couple of years, at least when I visited two or three times a year. But it's nice to actually sit across from somebody and look them in the eye, somebody that you just, everyone sees us just in those boxes and you think that's the sum totality of who somebody is. And for whatever we agree on or disagree on, and we can definitely get into all of that stuff,

and I think it's interesting actually watching you now because you're stepping out of that very controlled environment. Tucker stepped out of that controlled environment. You're out of that environment. Lemmon's out of that environment. And some people will thrive in that new frontier. And some people just won't.

And I think it's actually cool watching you do some of these debates and getting in it. Even if I don't agree with some of the positions you've come to, because otherwise that box, that'll keep you, I don't have to tell you, it'll keep you quite confined for quite some time. But the pay is good, I mean, that's. Well, the pay is good, the relevancy is good,

the platform is good, the majority of the country is not social media activated, is not digital media activated, even though that is the future, I understand that, but I was just talking to some money guys in our business. And you know that old expression, the rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated. Nightly News is very often the number one television show

in the country. They're still getting 8 million a night. There's still a lot of money in cable. Will it abate? Yeah, over time, stratification. But what I think is important to me, why do I go down and talk to Patrick Bette-David's, you know, very zealous,

flumming it down in priority. right audience, Dirty South. Pat's a beautiful guy who's doing things for the right reason, but disagreement is fine. Disagreement, and no, no, we just don't disagree. You're wrong, is fine. Disagreement and no, no, we just don't disagree. You're wrong is fine. But I don't like Dave Rubin. You're a bad guy because we disagree

is not who we're supposed to be. That you on Twitter and all those anonymous accounts saying those mean things to me. Yeah, right? That is not who we're supposed to be. And I believe that it only serves the power interests. And that's why they hate this. Yeah.

They hate this. They hate that I'm down there talking to Pat's people. Not because they're, like, liking me. It's that you are still Americans and human beings, and you don't have to agree on anything, and you can be friends. That's, to me, the only energy that matters. And that's, by the way, that's what the city was about.

Perhaps more than any other place on earth in the history of the world, right? I mean, New York City, the idea that right now, I mean, it's a little different now I suppose, but in the heyday of New York City, like the really great times of New York City, like you'd get on a subway and there would be every single person

of every walk of life, every economic stratosphere, every gender sexuality, all of the nonsense that we're obsessed with these days. All on the subway. And it was all here. And yeah, we weren't that nice to each other, but we weren't trying to kill each other either. Where now things seem to have shifted

because everything's become so hyper political. That's the New York that I miss. I mean, as you know, I'm very, very happy in Florida and they can bury me in the Everglades and feed me to the Gators. I'm so hyper political. That's the New York that I miss. I mean, as you know, I'm very, very happy in Florida and they can bury me in the Everglades and feed me to the Gators. I'm never leaving. But if New York could return to some of that, which I'm not very bullish on.

But that's not what Florida is, by the way. No. You have found a haven in Florida, but it is not the world of diversity. No, no, no. Well, it's not the world of diversity in that it's every, all of that, meaning people from everywhere.

But Florida has, I would say, a much better situation, which is that Florida has people who are flocking to it for freedom, for the promise of what America was and should be and hopefully will become again. And no income tax. And no income tax. But I'll tell you, I did not, listen,

it is very nice when I talk to my accountant and I look at the books at the end of the year, I now save more than I was making most of my life. So that is very nice. I'm not going to pretend it isn't. And I brought two companies there and all that stuff, but I didn't move for the taxes. I moved because I lived in Cali for eight years

and it was great for six years. And then those two years in LA of COVID were unbelievably horrible. I mean, they were absolutely horrible. And get this, three days after the recall, which I campaigned with Larry Elder to get rid of Newsom, who I think is truly the devil incarnate, I was audited by the state.

And that's the day I put my house for sale. I had already wanted to get out, but once I got audited by the state, I said, there is no way I'm staying here. Now you think that Larry Elder, by the way, I have dealt with plenty on Twitter and I've had him on the show in the past. I believe that it's not a judgment of him as a person.

I don't know him enough and we gotta get out of that business of judging the person. We probably should put aside all the qualifications. Right, but he is an opportunist and he plays opportunity. How do you mean? Because he is the black conservative and it creates, makes a magnet effect right away

every time he's out there because black people aren't supposed to be putting out those views. Black people get angry at him as if they were a monolith. The media believes that he doesn't make sense. So all of it is energetically works for him. I just feel that he pushes it. Do you think it's not authentic? I mean, I can tell you knowing Larry very, very well.

I think it's 100% authentic. I think that's who he is. I just think he picks his spots to be as provocative as possible. Oh, sure. Well, he's on television. You're on television, you know, online, whatever you wanna call it.

But I can tell you, his beliefs are his beliefs. And they are authentic. And by the way, you know, they're sort of cool now. You know, a lot of this stuff is kind of cooler now to be, say, black. I mean, I hate to do all now. You know, a lot of this stuff is kind of cooler now to be, say black, I mean, I hate to do all this stupid race stuff, but to be black and like be breaking away from the Democrats, that's become cool now.

You see a lot of athletes doing it, rappers, blah, blah, blah. What's cool on the right. But he was cool on the right. He was doing it way before it was cool when, you know, and by the way, I mean, just look at the way the media treated the guy when he ran for governor. The black face of white supremacy, according to the LA Times, there was a guy in a monkey outfit

that threw stuff at him in Venice. The media didn't cover him friendly at all. Joe Biden came to campaign for Gavin Newsom during the recall and wouldn't even say Larry Elder's name. He kept saying the Trump acolyte or something like that. So, you know, these are the, it's interesting because when I, you know, I was a lefty most of my life

and then I had my political awakening, whatever you want to call it. And I started sitting down with Larry and with Dennis Prager and Ben Shapiro and some of these guys on the right. And what I found was I thought first as a lefty, I thought they were supposed to be mean and they only care about money and war and all this stuff. And what I found was they were by and large much friendlier, much nicer, much kinder. Well, then I expected conservatives to be.

But don't you notice one of the things that pisses me off about this business in general, now part of it is stature, right? Just man to man. People aren't gonna come at me the same way in person when you're 230 pounds as when you're on TV, right? It's much easier to talk shit about somebody than to them, especially when you do any research,

even Rogan, right? People will say, well, Rogan, you gotta be careful. All the guy does is fight train. That's all I've done for 35 years also. So there's a little male-male simplicity. Women will still dig into me any chance that they get in terms of if they have a disagreement, because they don't care about this.

They're like, what, are you gonna hit me? You're a fucking jackass. But I find that in the media, people are rarely what they are as their performance suggests. Oh, well, that's one of my biggest pet peeves. So I just spent the morning with Megyn Kelly and Megyn Kelly is the same person.

She is the same authentic person on camera as she is off camera. And you meet, you know, and we could probably go through the laundry list of these people that the second the camera goes on, it's as if you're looking at a different human being, like something has possessed them, and there's just this whole-

She's also a screed monster, you know, provocateur. Oh, I adore Megyn Kelly. How do you- No, no, no, no, no, no. She's not easy to adore. Oh, what do you mean? Not personally, I don't know her personally. I'm saying her persona. Oh, I- She doesn't have like a warm and fuzzy persona.

Well, I wouldn't, well, it's who she is. I think she shows the teeth when she's supposed to, you know, she drops the F-bomb when she's supposed to. But I think she also, you know, she's been burned in many ways by the mainstream. She holds no bitterness about it, but she calls out the BS. Oh, she holds bitterness.

Not that, I mean, I know Megan, I know Megan very well. I have never seen any bitterness out of her. I'm saying you see it in her presentation. Again, I don't know her personally. I don't have to. I'm saying she goes after things and people all the time. There's gotta be a bitterness.

She failed at the level she wanted to succeed at. It's gotta bother me. No. Well, I don't think she failed at it. I think the corporate structure showed her that you better play the exact corporate structure and apologize the second we want you to apologize and everything else.

I don't think she failed at it. I can tell you. Well, our numbers she failed that. I can tell you. Well, her numbers weren't. I can tell you having been, but she didn't get fired because of ratings. That the morning. If she was doing better, they wouldn't have done it to her. I'm not so sure about that,

but I can just tell you knowing Megan the way I do, I've just never met a more warm loving person. And it's interesting. It's interesting. So you see her, you see the public part of her as not warm or something? Absolutely not warm. I think one of the reasons she didn't make it on television

is because she doesn't project any warmth. But what do you mean make it on television? She had the number of the show on Fox for many years. Network is very different. Network, so cable television are people who are seeking out news-related content, okay? That is not the basic premise of television viewership. The whole dynamic that you and I grew up with was you have to

entice them to want to watch you. They're just flicking through. When are they gonna stop? That's not cable. Cable is I love Ruben. Cable is I hate Ruben. I'm gonna find him, right? And now you have digital media, which is that plus hive thing. So Cable's one person. There's a reason that you don't see a lot of people go from network television to cable.

It is a very different skillset. Cable television is people seeking out volume, provocativeness, sometimes depth. You know, it depends. It depends what show, what viewer pocket you're talking about. Network television is the majority of American mentality, which is, what vibe do I get from you? Do I like you? Are you nice? Are you a nice person?

She did not pass that test. Well, just to be clear, I mean, she didn't get fired for not having ratings or- I know, I'm saying they wouldn't have fired her. She got fired because she had internal problems with the staff. She said the- Well, I don't even know that technically she got fired.

And she said the blackface thing. Whatever it was, they paid her a gazillion dollars to leave. I mean, think of it, relatively though, think how insane it is because she said that Santa Claus is white or something to that effect. She said, I don't know why black faces are a big deal or bad or anything. It's interesting though, because it may be true.

I don't think she should have been fired for those things by the way. Yeah. For what it's worth. It's interesting though, because it may well be true that 8 million people still watch 6.30 PM network news. I don't even know who the anchors are anymore, but shows you, I mean, I'm fairly well attuned

with the news and I just have no idea. I used to know it was Tom Brokaw and Peter Jennings and who was the other guy? Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather, of course. For some reason, Rather always gets lost with me, but he's still trying to do it, right? The guy's 106. He's still doing something.

But whether though, if that, I'm not sure that 8 million is right, but whether that is right or not, I mean, it's interesting because it pales in comparison to the numbers that say Rogan is getting. He gets 11 million unique a month. They get eight million a day. 11 million uniques a month.

Where are you coming up with that number? If you Google how many people watch Joe Rogan, the number will come up 11 to 11.8 or 11.2 million uniques a month, meaning these are individual viewers who watch it. You have 8 million a day there. Are they uniques?

Ah, no, not by the same tabulation. So there's a discount effect. Yes, how much is? Depends who you wanna talk to in the industry. Anywhere from 20 to 40%. So any way you look at it, if you go around the country, they're not gonna know Joe Rogan the way we do, because they're not living that existence.

He is the biggest fish in a pond that is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And it's not even a pond now, it's a lake. And it's gonna be a bay, and then it's gonna be an ocean. And then eventually it's all gonna be converged together. I think we might've shifted, we might've already shifted into that. The cognoscenti has, the media has,

and there's a bad reason for that. And I'm pro digital media, right? I paid for all this out of my own pocket because I think it matters. The media covers digital media as Vox Populi, because it's there. And they have these amazing, eloquent communicators like you. Mm-hmm.

You know, where it's like, this is awesome. I can find out how people feel about things. And the guys are pro. This is awesome. It's so much easier for me. The problem is, I never really liked Vox Populi reporting anyway. But it's also not mainstream America.

Like, you look at Twitter, you would think every lefty is like ready to savage you as a left trader, right? I would say most of them are actually. On Twitter, 80% of Democrats are center left. Yeah, but the center left Democrats, if you mean sort of the blue dog Democrats and the Democrats of your father and the Democrats.

Yeah, just reasonable Democrats. Daniel Patrick Moynihan and JFK, what Bill Maher I think still largely represents. Unfortunately, they don't have any power in the Democrat Party. Same way on the right, though. We are dominated by the fringes. But the difference is that Trump, and I didn't vote for Trump the first time around. I definitely voted for him the second time and I will absolutely vote for him this time. Trump though is not, when people are like Trump's far right, Trump is actually far closer to a moderate Democrat

from 30 years ago than the left. Then the left has anything to do with a Democrat of 30 years ago. He was a Democrat 30 years ago. I know. So the point is, although he is governed, particularly when it came to the Supreme Court on abortion, he's governed in a more conservative way.

Most of his policies are Democrat policies of 30 years ago, even as it pertains to the border. Everyone used to be for having a sane border, every Democrat, even Barack Obama promised that. He didn't do it. But the left, unfortunately, has nothing to do with the old school liberals anymore. I would say largely the Democrat party has nothing to do with the old school liberals anymore. I would say largely the Democrat Party has nothing to do with the Democrat Party.

I think your dad would be looking at this party and saying he has way more in common with Republicans today than he does. No, because my father, first of all, I'll tell you what he wouldn't do. He wouldn't get in politics today. I wouldn't blame him for that. He would believe that it's too cheap and he's going to knock somebody's teeth out. Because he had rules of decency. And if you cross the line, then you were asking for something.

And maybe there was gonna be trouble, but he was okay with that. We're all talking the walk these days. Everybody talks mean things, but they're not tough people per se. The problem that I perceive is both parties are afraid of their fringe. The fringe is a magnified minority.

We see that operating minute by minute on digital media. So what would be the fringe? I think everyone listening and watching knows what the fringe of the left is, like sort of let's say the craziest woke whatever and what's going on in college campuses. What would you say is the fringe of the right? The hard maga. Hard maga. But what is that?

Like what are some of their beliefs? Hard maga belief is Donald Trump can do no wrong because the system is worse. Completely situational ethics. Things that are right, wrong, good, bad, only are true until they become a disadvantage and then they don't matter anymore. So law and order, yes, but not Trump, okay.

What happened during the pandemic has to be reviewed and they shouldn't matter anymore. So law and order, yes, but not Trump. Okay. What happened during the pandemic has to be reviewed and there shouldn't have been lockdowns and the vaccine is not a good thing except for Trump. Okay. We need to have integrity, except for Trump. Okay. We need to have fiscal conservativeness, you know, because that's me, I'm on the right. Okay. Except for Trump. So it's about an article of convenience. And then you have the reaction formation to the far left, which is on the far right, which is white fright, right? DEI is terrible, diversity is all unfair. DEI is terrible.

It's a matter of perspective, not on the left it isn't. I mean. It's that on the left, it's the sole ambition of America. But right, but it has nothing to do with our founding documents or our laws or anything. It's because they're all white guys. No, no, no. I'm giving you their argument.

That's their argument. But do you believe that? I have no home and it's not because I'm a fence sitter, which by the way, I want to talk to you about libertarianism as a Mizis guy and classic liberalism, which I believe in. I believe in the political philosophy. Philosophy is my thing.

I don't work well in the political context because I'm believe in the political philosophy. Philosophy is my thing. I don't work well in the political context because I'm burdened by the philosophy. So I have to go issue by issue. I'm a gun owner. Do I think we're doing the right thing with who gets weapons? Fuck no, we're not doing the right thing.

Do I believe it's an absolute right? Absolutely not. But I believe it's about being pragmatic. We're not pragmatic anymore. Everybody's got me 100%. What do you mean it's not an absolute right? I think if you get a concealed carry permit, okay? You're gonna fill out this form,

you're gonna put a list of people, right? You're gonna put me on there, you're gonna put whoever you want. They're gonna call me and say, you know, Dave Rubin, I do know Dave Rubin. What do you think of? Great guy, love. Okay, how's he been doing? What do you mean he's killing it? No, no, no, I mean, Dave Rubin, I do know Dave Rubin. What do you think of him? Great guy, love. Okay, how's he been doing?

What do you mean he's killing it? No, no, no, I mean, like as a person, has he been going through anything recently? No, not that I know of, why? Well, you know, he put you down on the list. Oh yeah, yeah, yes, yes, he did, he did. Has he had any problems with people lately, or have you seen any changes in behavior or anything like that?

No, why? Well, we want to know why he's getting the weapon to make sure he's all right. That's what they do in Canada for everything. That's what they do for us with Concealed Code. You have the conversation. They're over as long as you're not like, you know, someone's going to say, well, he does want to kill our neighbor, Frank. You get the weapon. I don't have a problem with that. I don't believe, now, is that our problem with weapons? No, our problem with weapons are weapons that are bought illegally for use in crimes.

That's the problem. But there's nothing wrong with that to me, but it'll never be allowed. It's seen as far too extreme and limiting of the right. Wait, I'm sorry, what's not seen? You'll never be able to have what I just explained, which is what you need for concealed carry, right, a carry permit here in the many states, as the rule just for all weapon sales.

Right, so I mean, I'm a, well, first off, I do think it's an absolute right. I mean, it's in the Bill of Rights. But none of those- It's an absolute right. But none of them are without any check at all, right? All of them have regulations. No, no, no, but we do have checks.

Even in Florida, I mean, I have a couple of guns. You can't just walk into a store and get a gun that day. It's true. Even in Florida. Unless you had the far, the fringiest people on the right in control, and then you would not have to do that. That may well be true, but Trump in many ways,

I think is the bulwark against them. That's the bizarre thing. I think some of what you said there is true as it relates to Trump there. Look, I was a DeSantis guy during the primary because I felt America has to get on the other side of this thing. I've seen the way the guy governed

and it's just been absolutely- He does not campaign like he governs. No, he was not a great campaigner. I think that there were some flaws there. I think it really came down to more than anything else that Trump is just an other worldly force. Whether you love Trump or hate Trump or whatever, the universe is still circling around him.

And DeSantis thought, and I think it was a legitimate argument, you know, and I was there with them as they were launching the campaign, he thought that competency, that people were ready for competency. And I also think that when he, at the beginning of it, he was still with a lot of the COVID hangover

and that's where he excelled. Once the COVID hangover, although it's now because of the Fauci stuff, it's starting to come back again, right? But once that kind of went away and then all of the trial stuff happened with Trump and everything else, it just put so much fuel on that. DeSantis had, there was no option.

There was no lane. He was like, ah, I'll tack a little right of him. Maybe it'll work. And there was just no way. And then, and then he does, I genuinely like the guy, but he does, he's not the most charismatic. He actually- Do you think, is it true that he has some type

of personality work? I don't think so. I've had dinner with him many times. I've had breakfast with him. I've had smoked cigars with him. I've drank whiskey with them. It's just, he's not, he would sit here and do this with you and make eye contact with you the entire time

and be completely fine, completely fine. He's not the other thing, you know, that Bill Clinton walked into a room and everybody just fell in love right there. That from the two or three times that I've met Trump, he just walks into a room and you feel it. He's not that. My calculation was, wow, America has been so and you feel it. He's not that.

My calculation was, wow, America has been so effed up for the last couple of years, everything has been so screwed up. They've lied to us about everything, COVID, all of the stuff that maybe everyone is ready for competent governance. And that was my argument for him. They are ready.

I don't think they're ready. They don't even know what it would look like. They are ready for it, first of all. Well, I would say the large masses aren't. I would say in certain pockets, they're ready. They don't even know what it would look like. They are ready for it. First of all. Well, I would say the large masses aren't. I would say in certain pockets they're ready. The majority of the country is ready for it. Remember the majority of the country, right? The fastest growing part of our electorate now for the first time in our our history is people who don't want to assign partisanship to themselves. Yeah, right. It's not a majority, but it's a plurality, 40 something percent. The majority of this country is not what we see

on social media. They're just quiet because they're kind of afraid of it. And Trump represents competency to people. The reason DeSantis couldn't compete with him, there's never one reason, but what is Trump? And I was right in 2016 that he was gonna beat Clinton because of the rallies. And people were saying, yeah, but this is America.

I know you're looking micro, it's only 20,000, it's only 20,000, it's only 20,000. We got wrong, I'll say we, I did. I forgot how big a deal to you guys being a celebrity is. I forgot, you know what I mean? Like I never really saw Trump that way. I didn't know him as the TV star. I knew him my whole life.

So I forgot how much that matters in America. So he has, it's why people think Oprah could be president. Celebrity is a huge magnifier of that. If you're sitting here like this with any really well-known actor or actress, okay, you could be 80% better versed on the topic. You're gonna lose the likeability at the end of the conversation.

Why? Because they like the celebrity. So there was that, he has that. Maybe that's the it. I actually think it's more than just it factor. Being a celebrity and having it is big. He is also the recognized agent for, let's say 30, maybe 40% of the country's animus.

He is the guy who is seen as he will go in there and he will break this shit up. Now, yes, he didn't do it the first time, but it doesn't matter. They still want it to be done. No one appeals to them the way he does on that level, even DeSantis. Why?

He'd be able to be so much more effective, but he's got that feel of the system to him. This guy definitely hates the system. He doesn't talk like he has sophistication. He doesn't act like he has sophistication. He kind of acts like someone I don't want dating my mom, you know, but that's what I need to go collect the debt. My line on this was that, you know,

we all wanted a panther in a china shop the first time he came around, but that's not the phrase. Everyone wanted a panther to walk in, and there's a china shop, and with its tail, it knocks over one thing, maybe another thing, and then calmly closes the door. But you don't have a panther in a china shop.

You have a bull in a china shop, and that's what you get. So for me, it's like, for all of his flaws, and believe me, I got the flaws and he didn't, he was rolled by the swamp. The swamp, he didn't drain the swamp. I mean, Operation Warp Speed and all of the COVID stuff and everything else, even though he was far better on COVID from where I sit than Biden.

I mean, he didn't want mandates and he was leaving a lot of it to the states and everything else. That's where you and I probably just see the- Yeah, I mean, we can talk it through because remember a little bit of it is an unfair analysis, period, and to Trump, because he didn't have the vaccine. He made it, I'm not taking away his credit, but I'm saying- Well, I don't think he deserved credit for it.

I think the vaccine was not a vaccine. And well, not I think, the vaccine was not a vaccine. The vaccine did not work. Fauci is on right now. It works, it worked, it worked. It's why the hospitalizations came down. I mean, I don't think- It's why the healthcare system

is looking back on its feet. I know everyone says that, but I don't think there's really any evidence of that. Yeah, the folks are- I'm not vaxxed, they're not vaxxed. None of my crew is vaxxed. We all got COVID. You are not the people

who should have been made to be vaxxed. Well, first off, but they were forcing everybody to be vaxxed. That is going to be something that needs to be reviewed and scrutinized. And I believe ultimately found to have been wrong. Yeah, but Fauci should be in jail. Do you- For what?

What's the crime? For, well, we can do a whole bunch of things. Just one. We'd have to decide what the crime is at the end. Let me just go through a few of the things that he did. Then we can figure out what the technical term for the crime is. So just in the last few days,

he's admitted that six feet social distancing was largely made up. He completely admitted it. No, he didn't. Yes, admitted it. No, he didn't. Yes, he did. What did he say? We'll do it point by point. Yeah.

What he said was, I don't know where it came from. I don't know why they said six feet. He's the head of the NIH. The rule was from the CDC. Bob Redfield, who was the head of the CDC, says to me and to anyone who asks him, Tony had nothing to do with Six Feet, it was us. We gave it to him as the parameter.

It doesn't, but he has to have the wherewithal to say where did you guys come up with this? How did you just magically made up something? Oh, no, no, no, they did not make it up. There was a debate in house at the CDC. I know this stuff cold from Bob. I believe that they had debates and internal memos about all of those things,

but there was nothing backing it. There was nothing backing it. No, they had funds to stuff backing it. There was no evidence that when you went to a restaurant, if you were sitting, you could take your mask off and COVID could only get the waiter who was standing and had to wear the mask off. And masks don't work at all.

He even emailed. They do work. They don't work. They're not perfect. There's a lot of research that's all over the place. I would just ignore, don't work at all. He even emailed. They do work. They don't work. They're not perfect. There's a lot of research that's all over the place. I would just ignore, I would just avoid the extremes and the positions. Do masks work?

Of course they do. Why do they wear them in hospitals? Why do they wear them? Obviously it helps. How much? Enough that you can't get me sick? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on your viral load.

So it's iffy. It's not 100%. They're, everyone in their right mind knows that if you put on one of those, you know, 50 cent masks that everybody was wearing and it's loose up here and it's loose over here and loose over here and loose over here, that you breathe and cough and those germs get out

just as easily. They do, but not as the same as if you don't have it. Yes, it might stop someone from coughing into, but either way, the idea that they were forcing people. See, it's the forcing that you don't like. I'm just saying that's fine. It's a legitimate position to have. And that's why I want them to do a review

of all these policies so they don't have it. So the reason, so, okay, so social distancing, let's say it was iffy at best. Let's say- But it wasn't his call. Let's say masks, iffy at best. Then the vaccine. Yes. Joe Biden went on stage and said- Which is actually a-

He will not get nor transmit, but they literally changed the definition of the word vaccine for this vaccine. Joe Biden went on stage. No, they changed it before. They changed it when MLRNA became a dominant research tool for them with Zika and AIDS. They then changed what a vaccine is that today

approximates what's called a therapeutic because they learned that this new species of viruses that they're dealing with doesn't react the same way that they used to see. So they changed the definition. I don't see anything nefarious in the change. Do I see something problematic in the messaging? Yes, and that's the point you were about to make. Well, Joe Biden went on stage and said,

you will not get nor transmit COVID if you get the vaccine. Rachel Maddow gave one of the most ridiculous, five minute beginnings of her show talking about the exact, just repeating what I would say in essence was state propaganda. Why did I not get fooled by all of that stuff? So when I was like, so that's where I started becoming critical of you

and more of the cable news guys. Where I was just like, every day I turn on, and I don't mean any of this to own you or any of that. Every day I turn on. You'll never own me. Never. Good, good. But that every day I turn on the cable news

and they're all saying the exact same things. And all I kept saying was, I don't know if this vaccine works. And I don't know if masks work and everything else, but I know you shouldn't be locked in your house. I know the government shouldn't have that power. And I know that I shouldn't be able to force my employees to be injected with something, which is what the government wanted.

You know, I don't have a thousand employees, but the OSHA mandate and everything else. And all I did was remain skeptical of the entire thing. And then to watch everyone go completely insane. I was supposed to do a hit at Fox in LA during the height of COVID. I was gonna do a hit basically debating vaccines, mandates really, with Gloria Allred. So Gloria Allred, the legendary civil rights attorney. What's that? Odd pairing, but okay.

Yeah, strange pair. I had never met her before, interviewed her before anything, but they wanted, she was gonna debate the pro-mandate side and I was gonna do the anti-covid, anti-mandate side. I get to the studio and they said, well, where's your passport? I said, well, I don't have a passport, I'm not Vax. They would not let me in, so they sent me back.

And that was Fox. That was, that was Fox, it's the Fox affiliate, not Fox News there, but the local Fox affiliate. Anyway, but I couldn't get in Fox News here either. So nobody's, you know, guiltless and all this. Anyway, I go back home and then we do it digitally. And then on air, Gloria Allred, the legendary civil rights attorney

asked me if I was vaxxed on air. Think how insane that is, that she was asking me my private medical information on air. I asked her when the last time she got laid was, she was not too thrilled with that question and I still didn't get an answer. But when do you think that was?

That was probably- I don't know. I wouldn't call her a civil rights attorney either. But the... What is she? I mean... Oh, she's an ambulance chaser, I guess. No, she's whatever she is. I'm not judging her either. But the...

But the point is... I don't see asking somebody if they're vaccinated as some kind of intermittent information. I think you guys are making it that to make it more important and more... No, it's not anyone's business what your medical, what your private medicine is. I don't know that that falls into like,

have you had anything that would be sensitive? It became sensitive for some people. Well, no, no, no, but it's important and it was sensitive because depending on whether you were vaccinated or not, they would decide whether you could go to restaurants in Los Angeles. Right. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. So let's talk about why. Because the first thing I like to understand in these situations, right, because I got in trouble too, right?

I took a run. I came back into the lobby of this building. Some scumbag neighbor of mine saw me not having a mask on because I can barely jog as it is, Dave. If you think I'm going to jog with a mask on, you're going to be doing a different kind of story about me in public. You're a good shape.

I'm heavy. I'm heavy and I'm old. Dave, you don't see a lot of 230 pound, 50 something year old guys whipping around the park. So I didn't have the mask on. Fucking told on me, New York Post goes crazy with it. I then have a conversation, but look, they say that you've got to figure out within your own discretion how you do this.

They can't enforce this. It's not like driving while drunk or something like that. There's discretion involved. I don't know how me running in the park made a fucking difference. Walking back into the lobby, there was no one in the lobby. I walked in it. So I got in trouble too, so I get it both ways. The first point is this.

This is not an American phenomenon. These are not American policies, okay? Everyone was doing these things because they were working off the same basis of understandings about transmission. That's important. The only distinction you see with America is that we did worse than a lot of other countries for two reasons.

One, well, I'm just talking about in terms of death and severe hospitalization, severe illness that led to hospitalization. We do worse than wealthy countries. We do worse than most countries. Why? We're fat and sick. We're fat and sick. We're fat and sick. I'll go with you on that one.

And we wanna make it, and I get in trouble for this, that's why I'm whispering because I think people can't believe it and understand it as well. I whisper sometimes on my show. Obesity is not a disease. Obesity causes disease. We have given people an excuse,

not people who have a thyroid that doesn't work, not people whose intestines don't absorb it. That's not what we're, we know who we're talking about. Fat people, okay? That it's okay to be fat because it's a disease. It's not okay to be fat and it's not a disease. It will lead to disease. That's a signature American trait.

That's why we had more people die. The second reason we- Shouldn't have closed up gyms, shouldn't have told everybody to stay home and order in food and eat burgers and pizza all day long. But most developed countries did exactly that. So it's not just us. So to just burden Fauci with it, even though he didn't make the policies, he

recommended them and president Trump and president Biden put the policies into place. That's why I don't know why you don't blame Trump and Biden. No, no, no, no, first off, Biden has been unbelievable. You don't blame Trump and he gave you the shortcut vaccine and he closed down the society. No, no, I think Warp Speed was absolutely terrible. And he did the shutdowns. Yeah, wait, wait, wait.

I think Warp Speed was absolutely terrible for sure. As I said earlier, he got rolled by the deep state. He didn't know what to do. Why can't he just, why didn, he got rolled by the deep state. He didn't know what to do. Why can't he just, why didn't Biden get rolled by the deep state? What do you mean? Biden was way worse when it came to COVID. So why doesn't he get the excuse of being rolled by the deep state? No, no, but well, first off, I'm not one of those, like whatever you're calling that version

of MAGA, I'm not in that crew. So I do call balls and strikes as I see it. Trump absolutely got rolled by the deep state. When he had Burks up there and Fauci. But why didn't Biden get rolled? He had the same people. But what do you mean he didn't get rolled? He was way worse on COVID.

But I'm saying if Trump gets the excuse. I think it's because we look at COVID the reverse way. I think COVID basically was a giant scam. And- That the entire world participated in. Something to that effect. Something to that effect. Not a scam.

I know COVID itself was real. We also had no flu deaths for two years, basically. Because we were keeping away from each other. No, no, because it was a version of the flu in essence. It wasn't because we were keeping away from each other. COVID is no joke. We've never seen as many people with long symptoms from a virus as we do with this.

I'm not saying COVID was nothing. Obviously, I know people with long, but I would also say that there are plenty of Vax people that now have myocarditis, that I know somebody that has a vision problem now post-vaccine. There are not a lot of people that are having balancing problems. There are younger people who got vaccinated. Who should not have been vaccinated.

Who have a disproportionate amount of myo and pericarditis, but they're very small numbers. They resolve well in almost all cases. Does that mean we shouldn't figure out why? No. Have we figured out why? No. Does anybody care about why? No. Even this congressional committee, part of their mandate is this issue. We've heard nothing about it.

It's just Tony's on the take. We're not focused on the right thing, but I share your curiosity. Right. So I would say that a man... Let's put... I'm an American, so I would say that a man, let's put, I'm an American, so I can only talk about the Tony Fauci version of this, and every other country has their own Surgeon Generals

and people that they have to deal with with their health. We're all doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were desperate for our vaccine. Okay, what I would say is they largely, as we've watched most of our institutions just absolutely crumble in the last 10 years or so, they failed us at every level.

They didn't really know what they were doing. Fauci, two months into COVID, his friend sent him an email about going to vacation in Mexico and saying to my kids have to wear masks. And he said, masks don't work. Like two weeks later, he's on TV saying, a mask works and really you should double mask. It was all nonsense all along.

And if we would have based, I think that the world, absolutely, if you factor in the levels of depression, the levels of anxiety, what we, the speech delays for young people, all of the stuff, the addictions that went up, the drug use, if you factor all of that stuff in, I think the world would have been way better had we done absolutely nothing as it pertained to COVID. As long as you'd be okay with a much higher death toll. But I don't even know that there's evidence of that. More people maybe. There's definitely evidence of that's what would have been done because that's why they

put the measures in place. But that's just... That was their offsetting equity. It's interesting because I think maybe what our disconnect is, is that you still believe to some extent that the system operates either in good faith or that it really is looking out for the man. I believe publicans, people in public service are not there to do bad things inherently.

I don't believe it. No, no, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I believe they have good intentions. I don't think the NIH, that the average person wandering through the NIH is like, I'm here to kill everybody, let's spread the disease.

I agree, but we were all talking. But they're also government employees. They're not the best of the best anymore. This isn't NASA going to the moon. It depends. It depends what field of service you're talking about. But what I'm saying is anybody in my position, I must have had 30, 40 different clinicians

in the rotation of talking about this. Were there degrees of disagreement? 100%. Were there degrees of disagreement? 100%. Were there degrees of disagreement about who had to get vaccinated? Yes. Was there overreach? I think I agree with Bob Redfield,

who by the way is a lot louder about it now than he was then. Was he saying at that time, I don't know about all these people that were having, yeah, but he was saying it like that. Like he wasn't like, I 100% know that we shouldn't be doing it the yeah, but he was saying it like that. Like he wasn't like, I 100% know that we shouldn't be doing the way he is now, why?

It's the benefit of hindsight. There's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong with that is having the benefit of hindsight, knowing how right you are versus how right, let's say, Tony Fauci is, and vetting it with people who are neither you nor Tony Fauci, and nobody wants to do that. So maybe a better way to discuss it would be then

what I see is the divide, especially now that you're on this side of the cable news thing in essence. I think what happened largely was that people saw the inconsistencies, they saw, you know, they didn't like what was happening to them. All of the, you know, nurses one day are indispensable.

Then we're firing nurses that don't wanna get injected. All of the craziness, right? And then what happened was alt media largely, not everybody, cause there's plenty of lefties and Democrats and whatever on alt media, but alt media largely started being much skeptical much earlier. I mean, for me, you can go back and watch my videos.

For the first two weeks, two weeks to stop the spread or 14 days, whatever it was, I was in on it just like everybody else. I was like, all right, we have to do what we have to do. And I kid you not, on day 15, suddenly I was watching TV. I think I was watching the rerun of the Golden Girls on TV land. And all the commercials were about the new normal,

the new normal. And they just went off in my head. I was like, this is insane. This makes no sense. They have so, they're so programming us in a way. I don't mean that in like the most conspiratorial way ever, but we're all just going with this lunacy that we have no idea what's happening.

And then from that moment, I basically was like, I'm not gonna believe anything these people say. And then I was largely right. That's what I'm saying. So I think that was the divide. Two things. One, we all know the joke about a broken clock, right? And being right in hindsight is different than being right in the moment.

And there's no question that what we were doing was bringing the cases down. Was it worth the price? That's a fine debate to have. But it wasn't a conspiracy of lies because Tony and the other guys were on the take from Big Pharma. And that's what you're hearing in Congress. And that's what I hear every time I'm on a podcast other than mine. Have you seen that compilation video of all of the cable news?

Yeah, sure. Assuming it's real. The Gravian one? Brought to you by Pfizer and brought to you by Moderna. I mean, it is real. And NBC News and Meet the Press and CNN. But here's the thing. I mean, isn't that a little odd, right?

Like that is a little odd. Is it odd? There's a lot of group think involved in me. A lot of countries don't allow that. But I'm in part of that group, right? I'm not in that compilation, but I'm part of the group. So as someone who I would absolutely double my earning potential on digital media if I were to go bad on all of these things

that I think are reasonable and need to be assessed. I have never had a conversation or a payment or a suggestion from anyone in that industry about anything. No, but I'm saying, I have never had, even now on the podcast where I get to pick who I do, I don't have any big, I would, I would, depending on what we're talking about, especially if they get into therapeutics for long COVID, I'm to pick who I do. I don't have any big, I would, I would, depending on what we're talking about,

especially if they get into therapeutics for long COVID, I'm there, I wanna know. And if the research sounds right, my doctor and a couple of the clinicians that I trust say this stuff is gonna work, I would love to sponsor it. But these are excuses. Big media was in the pocket of big pharma. Bullshit, I never had anybody tell me anything.

No, no, but it's not that someone sits you down and says you have to say this. So Rachel Maddow, for example, that day when she just, you know the video I'm talking about, right? Where she was just, because also she's so inauthentic. And you guys want to go after her. No, no, I could care less about her.

If I never talk- She is one of the biggest targets of the right that there is. She's the oracle of the left. Well, but she gets everything wrong. I mean, from Brett Kavanaugh as a serial rapist, the Covington kids are racist, Jesse Smollett was almost lynched,

very fine people on both sides. I mean, these are all things that were on CNN that are all absolute lies. That even Jake Tapper, everyone always is like, oh, Jake Tapper is the one sane guy at CNN. He's in on all the lies too. These guys, they get everything wrong. Like we could do the laundry,

the very fine people on both sides thing. Do you think that's legit or not? I think you guys are 100% given him a pass in a way that you would never give one end on the other side. He said very fine people on both sides, except then literally the next sentence was, I am not talking about the white supremacists or the neo-Nazis.

He was talking about the people who debate whether we should have these statues or not. And of course there are very fine people on both sides. Yes, and then they keep asking him about what he's meaning and he won't qualify it. No, because he's learned- And it didn't happen for two days after that. No, but he's learned that you do not give the media an inch.

It's like the motions with the guy. And oh, he always does that about everybody and they search for three weeks to find a couple of motions of him like this. You know he was mocking the guy. You know he was mocking the guy. Why protect him from these things? I'm not protecting him from that.

Again, I don't defend Trump on all of the things. And you know how he has been with racists and alt-right people. He has been very hands-off and very delicate in his treatment of them. But I would say Joe Biden is far more in bed with racists and alt-right people. He has been very hands-off and very delicate in his treatment of them. But I would say Joe Biden is far more in bed with racists than Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib. You mean the racism of the world?

But those are the real racists we have to worry about. Those are the racists who are ruining this city. Those are the racists who are taking over our institutions. Those are the racists that are gonna make it. Why isn't it the same as saying, you worry about Omar, the people worry about Matt Gaetz. Neither of them have any real power. Well, she was on the foreign intelligence committee.

I mean, they kicked her off now, but she has a huge amount of power. I mean, look what she's amassed in Minnesota. But whether it's MTG or Matt Gaetz or the crazies on the right versus the crazies on the left. Well, I would say- They're not running anything. They're just mouthpieces. Putting aside whether I agree with Matt Gaetz or MTG about everything, or I certainly don't

agree with them about everything, but the policies that they are trying to put forward to the country, you may not like their tactics and you may question their motives or whatever, but they are not trying to put in policies that would actually, systemically put racism back into the country. The left and DEI and all of that, they are. That is actually- But DEI, the point of DEI, you can talk about its execution,

you can talk about degree and duration, but the whole point was to stop minorities from being excluded from places and institutions that matter in American advancement. That was the point. I'm not sure that's what the point was. I think that would be a sort of, pardon the way I'm gonna say this, I would say that would be a slightly

naive way of looking at it. I think that these people that are pushing this stuff are way more nefarious maybe than you think. What do you think they want? Oh, I think they actually want to up and all of the meritocracy that America has been built on I think they would gladly shred all of our founding documents I think that's very clear listen to what they're saying at these camp and campus protests they're starting with Israel

but but the United States is the big fish they they they want to make sure that we are going to degrade you they're not trying to lift everybody up but that's what equality does, the equality of opportunity. You know that obviously. They are not trying to lift everybody up. They are trying to take a hatchet job to people that have become successful so that your kids will be discriminated against when they,

you just said your son is graduating college now, right? No, no, high school. So graduate, oh, okay, sorry. I can barely take where I am. Graduating high school, okay. So I assume he's going to college? Yeah. I would recommend he doesn't. Thatuating, okay, sorry. I can graduate. Take where I am. Graduating high school, okay, so I assume he's going to college? Yeah.

I would recommend he doesn't, that guy over there, my executive producer, college dropout. I only hire college dropouts at this point. And guess what, their brains are not infected and they are then, what? We're going to school in Europe. Let's put that as, okay. Let me be okay.

That's probably not great too. But okay, either way, put that aside for a moment. I 100% know that Chris Cuomo as a father, four years from now when your son is out of college and he goes to get a job on Wall Street or if he wants to be a doctor or whatever, does not want him to be discriminated on by the basis of the color of his skin

nor how much money and how famous his dad is and everything else. And that is what they literally have systemically put into the country. So you might say, well, Matt Gaetz gave Trump a pass on this, or you may disagree with him on abortion, let's say. That is fundamentally different. That's a philosophical debate.

That is fundamentally different than what they have actually done to the system. The Supreme Court just reversed affirmative action as it pertains to college admissions, which was absolutely right. You don't solve past discrimination by discriminating against Asians of today, right? You don't do that. Everyone knows that. I had RFK on and he was not happy with that decision

and we got into it for five minutes. And by the end, he basically, he was like, you know, Dave, you're kind of right, but I grew up knowing about Jim Crow South and I guess I have to think about it a little bit more. And the liberal, the true classical liberal position, of course, would be that you're against any sort of discrimination.

So they have done something much more nefarious. In your opinion, they would say that, no, we are just trying to make sure this group isn't discriminated against anymore. Not that you are. But I don't think it's an opinion to say that, well, I suppose it's an opinion at some level, but I think it's an empirical truth that discrimination based on immutable characteristics is bad.

But they're not saying no white, they're saying more other than white. Doesn't matter, then thus you must discriminate. Thus you must discriminate. So what will happen? Otherwise you would have a lock, but you're assuming that it was fair in the first place. If it's not fair in the first place, then you're just locking in a white advantage. I'm not assuming that anything was fair in the first place. If it's not fair in the first place, then you're just locking in a white advantage. I'm not assuming that anything's fair in the first place. We all come from different backgrounds.

So you're Italian, I'm Jewish, so Eastern Europe. I'm gonna guess that our... What generation are you? Probably second. Your dad came from Italy. Okay. So... No, he was born here. I'm second generation. Oh, he was, sorry. He was born here. I'm second generation.

He was, sorry, he was born here. Otherwise, he could never run for president. Ah, okay, there you go, there you go. Which everyone in my family wanted. That's not why he didn't. Yeah, which everyone in my family wanted him to do. The point is that everyone's ancestors, virtually everybody in America's ancestors

came from another place that they were fleeing authoritarianism. Virtually everyone came with nothing. It's the same thing that your ancestors came with from Italy. They had nothing and they built something here and they lived in the Lower East Side or in Brooklyn or in the Tenements and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they built something.

It was my great grandparents had absolutely nothing. My grandfather grew up in a one bedroom thing with six brothers and sisters. His father died when he was two months old. Lower class, my parents from Brooklyn, sort of lower middle class. My dad finally made it. We moved to Long Island, middle class.

Now I'm obviously better than middle class. Like that is the American dream. No one was given anything. So yes, I can accept that perhaps in their utopian version of the world, the plan is, well, these other people, it's been a little bit worse for them, or this happened or that happened.

But if you think that at the end of the day, a giant corporation should say, oh, or Harvard should say, oh, you Asian kid, well, your parents were from South Korea and they owned a bodega and worked real hard and you did everything right and you studied and you guys cared about family. But we're not gonna let you in.

That is discrimination. And by the way, you want to have real discrimination in America, let's play that out after a couple of generations. How do you think the Koreans and the Japanese and the Chinese and the Jews, they don't count anymore or the white people will feel about everybody else after generations of being discriminated. Jews are now included as white people I think.

You can find tweets of mine from eight years ago where I kept saying that Asians were next because it was obvious because Harvard used to discriminate against Jews, right? In the 50s and 60s they had quotas against Jews. There were too many smart, hard-working Jews and then they've just shifted that now to Asians. So again, I think you might argue that some layer of it, the intentions are good. I don't think these people are all evil. I think many of them have been confused by bad ideas. And I would say largely the leadership of all the DEI stuff and all the woke stuff is evil.

Ibram Kendi is actually an evil person. Robin DiAngelo, these are evil people trying to upend the beauty of America. But they can be wrong and not evil. I would say that at this point, what they have wrought on this country is evil. I think that you have a digitized disposition. You guys are very extreme in how you talk about each other.

I don't think that's extreme. That's not extreme. Evil is not extreme? Well, no, you should call out evil when you see it. But an evil means that they wanna kill you. That's what evil is. Well, I actually think that's the next version of this. You wanna really play this out?

They will gladly make sure that your son will be unemployable. And then eventually you don't, this is what the revolutionaries always do. It doesn't just happen overnight, right? They push you a little bit, push you a little bit. We were revolutionaries. Who?

The Americans. No, but we were revolutionaries. That's how we got this country. But we were revolutionaries fighting for equality. and we wanted, we didn't want representation with that. That's what they say they're doing. I may not agree with their ideas. No, I know.

But I don't ascribe evil to it. I think that's, well, I'm not, as I said, I'm not saying every single one of them. I named two specific people that I think are agents of evil at this point. I think what they have put into the system, I would say Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, you come to this country as a first generation immigrant to destroy this country. Do you have a problem with them because they're Muslims? Is that part of it?

No, not at all, not at all. Absolutely not. They happen to be Muslim, but, and that may have some- You don't think that being Muslim has something to do with it though in your analysis? Has something to do with it? Well, I think that Rashida Tlaib, who is Palestinian, which isn't even a nationality and there was no Palestinian state, as I'm sure you know, and we can do that all game, she, I suppose,

is Muslim and maybe that forms some of her beliefs as it pertains to Jews. So there might be something there, but she, but there are Muslims in every community that are perfectly wonderful Americans. So I don't, I'm not judging her because she's Muslim. If she believed in America, if Ilhan Omar wanted America to be great and the promise of America rather turning it, rather than turning it into Somalia,

I wouldn't be against Ilhan Omar. She thinks what she's doing, why am I doing this? Because I think that the exercise matters. Two reasons. One, it's just not done enough. People skip the work of rigor. that the exercise matters, two reasons. One, it's just not done enough. People skip the work of rigor. Everybody cherry picks and everybody just demonizes who they disagree with.

And that's fine for clicks and making money, but it's not fine for the country. And that's why we are where we are. So I actually agree with you and I'm completely fine questioning that, right? It's not, you shouldn't just take these things at face value. Look, I'm not a particular fan of hers.

They all hate me by the way. And that's not an exaggeration. I get a lot of false credit for being like this lion of the left, like I'm the guy, right? Like, you know, I'm their guy. That's why you gotta come to Cuomo because, you know, he's their guy. They don't like me.

And not just because of what happened with my brother. And I certainly never harbored any resentment towards the party. The party's got a rule. Democratic party has a rule. An allegation against you is enough. Unless it's made by somebody from the far right, who we can kind of discount as that person

is from the far right, so they're trying to take out Dave. We may discount that, maybe. Otherwise, an allegation is enough. Andrew had more than one allegation. He was a dead man for them. Do I like the rule? Of course not. But then don't be on the team.

So I never had any problem that way with it. Their position is, I wasn't, CNN, I don't bash CNN, people get frustrated by that. CNN didn't fire me. Zucker fired me, because Zaslav told them to. And my beef is with them, okay? And even then I gotta say, Zaslav, I don't know. And Zucker is still the best maker of TV

I've ever worked with. And he fucked my life. You would say that now after what he's done to CNN. I know. Maybe before at NBC and the other stuff. Oh, no, no, no. Hold on, let's be very clear. Zucker made CNN the most powerful outlet

for media in the world. When did he take over CNN? I guess like 14 years ago. But it seems like it's lost, well not seen. No, now that's post-Zucker. Post-Zucker went like this, zhup, okay? But when we were there, I mean, the whole reason that everyone in the media was saying the same shit about COVID,

but you think about CNN. Neil Cavuto was saying the same stuff I was, but you think about CNN. Well,uto was saying the same stuff I was, but you think about CNN. Well, I think that was also largely because, and I say this on my show all the time, I wanted CNN to be better. Whenever I was talking about you or talking about Lemon, who I think is-

We're really not the same thing, by the way. What, you and Lemon? Most of the clips of Lemon, you'll notice I'm not talking. Oh, no, no, no, no. Well, we would sometimes, on my show, we do like a cold out and a cold open of just usually just, I love like weird media things or when someone reads a prompt or wrong or something

like that and we would show a lot of you and Lemon because to me it was like, I can't tell that these guys hate each other or are they pretending? No, no, I like Lemon. I had a lot of affection for him, which is why I would stay quiet. You know, because there are rules. If I'm on your podcast and the dynamic isn't

that you and I go at it with each other, like that's not the playful association, then I'm gonna let you, I'm on David podcast and the dynamic isn't that you and I go at it with each other like that's not the right the playful Association then I'm gonna let you I'm on David Rubin's podcast. I'm gonna let him say what the fuck he wants to say Yeah, well, that's why I wanted to do this because again, I know I don't think we could check all the records I don't think I was ever going after you as a per as a person, right? I don't know I don't I wouldn't have you here. No, no, no, no, no, of course But no, but you might actually I can tell you might. You might think that would be interesting to do. I mean, that is a credit to you.

Oh, no, no, I'm saying if I thought that there was no value, this would just mean like you were talking about my kids or something like that, then I just wouldn't have you on. Yeah, by the way, I will also say that you're, you know, I said obviously nice things about your dad. Your brother, if he was governor of New York right now, New York would not be as disastrous as it is. It'd be in better shape. She is absolutely awful. I'll tell you what Andrew would have done,

and now he's gonna get mad at me. But still. Because look, I don't know what Andrew... And I'm not defending his COVID stuff, obviously. I totally get it, but I don't know what Andrew's gonna do. As his brother, I think he's served enough, and I just want him to enjoy his life. He's so brilliant, he's so talented. There's so many people who want him to do so many things.

He has public service in his head, in his heart. He believes that there is nothing that matters as much. So if Andrew were governor right now, and I obviously, I spent a lot of time with the guy. So I got a good sense of where his head would be. Yeah. Bail reform was a mistake. Was pushed on him by the left flank of his party.

Judge has to have discretion. Andrew knows that. They would have changed it. Oh, he would have never gotten it through. He would have found a way. The migrants situation, Andrew would have had a plan. And he would have had a way to put it together. Was New York a sanctuary state under your brother?

Probably, but when the flow came, it's easy to be one way when it's not in your pocket. Andrew had to deal with that with the homeless. Andrew started what is now one of the largest homeless housing organizations in the country many, many years ago. And then my sister ran it, but it's a big deal. It's called HELP, Housing Enterprise for the Less Privileged.

He would never manage the homelessness like this. He would have never managed the migrant situation like this. And he would have never allowed this to happen. He'd have his fights with Trump, but he did business with Trump also. And they'd go back and forth, and it worked for both of them.

By the way, I think that's largely right. I think that's fine. I have a feeling if he was governor, I'd probably still not be thrilled with him on sanctuary stuff and maybe some of the homeless stuff, but I absolutely think he would be better than Hokel. Well, he believes. Hokel, who has just been unbelievably terrible,

I would say, at every possible level. And the sad thing is that, so New York, again, for whatever the criticisms of your brother are, New York had your brother, and then it got worse with Hokel. I think anyone honestly assessing the situation would say it's worse with her. And it's the same thing that happened in the city.

Everyone, I mean, de Blasio, who I think is a true socialist and had no idea what he was doing and largely wrecked this city, people thought that Eric Adams was gonna come in and just suddenly be much better. And Eric Adams has almost exclusively, I know he says better things,

but everything has systematically gotten worse under him. And that's my fear for all of the blue places because, I'm sure you know this, but in the governor's race, Hoke will beat Zeldin by about 450,000 votes in New York. That is not a lot. New York has lost about 800,000 people post-COVID. Now it's not that every single one of them are voting age

or would have voted Republican or anything else. Or went to Florida. Or went to Florida, but largely they did, largely they did because the New Yorkers usually move to Florida, the Texans maybe do a little. But the Carolinas, they carry a lot of the population too. Sure, but regardless of where they went, a certain set of people left this place.

So you lose the tax money, you lose that these are functioning good people and all that, but then also it creates more of the red blue divide. So New York is now bluer and Florida is redder and Texas is redder and everything else. How over time the country arbitrage is that, I have no idea. But it's a problem. And the reason it's getting worse, again, is not because of the nature of this country.

We've always had sectarian issues. This is why Washington said to avoid it, it was farewell addresses. And it's top of the list of what to avoid, parties. I am hung up on this, okay? Now you're a libertarian, which I very much appreciate. I would say I'm a classical liberal, which is I do have a distinction between libertarianism. Which, right, right, yeah.

I would say we're more realistic libertarian. I've read your description of it, and I'll give it to you. I don't know how Ludwig would feel about it. He loved the classical liberalism for what it was. I think Ron Paul would see it different, but it doesn't matter. I like the philosophy. I love the questions. Now, it is an article of convenience in this system

because you get to be better than both sides because you don't have to own either. But I'll give it to you. Well, okay, okay. I'll give it to you. But you do guys tend to wind up on the right more than on the left. Yes.

Well, certainly the way politics is framed now, yes. But it's the parties. But growing up, you and I growing up in New York 30 years ago, we were more on the left. Liberals, most New Yorkers, I mean, I'm from a family in Long Island, New Yorkers, we were all Democrats. Yes, but I think it's because of the ethnic,

I'm sorry, I know I'm a white guy, I know I have white privilege. Oh, stop doing that, Cuomo. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. You'll be happier when you stop doing that. I'm just saying, I get it, but I'm just saying, I grew up in a very ethnic experience. Most people on my block were speaking a different language.

There were Jews, but mostly Italians and Jews, little pockets, little different other things, but people were there there and they were different than I think people think of Jewish people when they think of them. Because I think people conflate being Jewish with being white now. Not only, I don't have to tell you,

but there are a lot of non-white Jews, but forget it, let's say they are all Caucasian looking. There was a culture brought from Europe of food and family and faith. And tradition. That was fundamental and very synergistic with Italians. So I had a different experience

where I had a lot of respect for the underclass. My father, the reason your parents loved my father was that they saw in him, look how smart we've gotten. Yeah. Look how he speaks the language now. Look at all the words this motherfucker knows. Because all America did was give chance. That's right. And that's the thing. And that's what these guys- And it was aspirational.

We still like seeing one of our own do well. Now we got crab pot syndrome. We want to pull them all down. And the parties dominate us and they keep us apart. And all of this stuff that is toxifying us, even the COVID after debate, which really pisses me off because I hate that we're ignoring long COVID and the vaccine because I don't know what's happening and nobody's focusing on it.

And just people keep getting sick and they're overwhelming me on social media because nobody can help them and nobody talks to them and nobody can give them answers. The parties get advantaged by it. Yeah. The parties get advantaged by it. The parties get advantaged by it. This all works great for them.

The more divided we become, the better it is for them. Less work they have to do. That's why as a classical liberal, I will always vote for whoever would be less involved with my life. That would be my general rule. I don't expect the government to save me. You know, Ronald Reagan, the eight scariest words

in the English language, or I'm here from the government, I'm here to help, or I'm from the government, I'm here to help. And I think that that largely has proven right over time. I think more and more people are waking up to it. And that's what we gotta, we have to reinforce that belief. Save yourself. If you save yourself and if you,

cause if you save yourself first. Put your mask on first. Well, I don't agree with that, but if you save, well, you should do what you think is, No, not that mask, I mean the airplane. Oh, that if you save yourself first. Put your mask on first. Well, I don't agree with that, but if you save it, well, you should do what you think is. No, not that mask, I mean the airplane. Oh, that mask, yes, yes. I guess I can get on board that one, although maybe throw it on the kid first, I don't know.

But either way, like if you do what's right for you first, by extension, you will do what's right for your family. And if you do it right for your family, you will do it right for your community. And you build up that way, as opposed to let the king tell us all how to do it. Listen, I'm totally fine with that. I'm not a top down guy.

I believe in bottom up. It's the only thing anything great has ever happened in this country. You can't expect your leadership to do it. You have to have your leadership be forced to do it. That's the way it is. But I do believe that the big problem and I don't have the solution to it.

I'm trying to practice the solution and I'm probably batting about 300, which would be great in baseball, but kind of shitty at this, which is you gotta stop demonizing the people you disagree with. You can disagree with them. You can say that they're wrong.

But like, you know, I go down there with Pat and I'm happy to address those people. I know they're angry. Do I agree with what makes them angry? Yes. Do I agree that the things that make them angry were all wrong or worse, like intentional? No.

But the idea that you, again, I can't get past this. Trump's okay. They're all voting for Trump. But I owe you an apology. I owe you an apology because I was worried that the rush on ivermectin was so robust that people were buying veterinary-grade ivermectin because somehow, and they'll say, or Dave would say, was just well-meaning clinicians. Oh, really?

That sent a panic wave across the country that if you get COVID, you better have ivermectin, and if you have ivermectin, you don't have to worry about getting COVID, and you don't have to take the vaccine. It was just well-meaning clinicians that put that up in the air that made our entire supply disappear so much

that people were taking veterinary grade. No, it was propagandized, and I was against it then, I'm against it now. People needed to take the vaccine early on. It made a difference. Later, different analysis. What I don't get any credit for is when it got hot and heavy, end of 21, end of 22, where the variants, the vaccine was not giving us

the protection that it was, I wasn't on TV anymore. I wasn't on TV. I didn't do a social media post for the whole year. I was curled up with a bottle of tequila, trying to figure out how to process what had happened to me. Oh, you're a tequila guy? We should have been talking about tequila this whole time. I love tequila.

Yeah, oh, I'm coming out with a tequila in September. Are you really? Yeah, I just got back from Jalisco. I gotta talk to you about it. Because friends of my wife, Christina, she runs a wellness business called Purist. That's the coffee cup. She doesn't make coffee cups, but that's the company. Yeah. Her

friends do Casa Dragonas. Yeah. Berta and Michelle. And they've taught us so much about what matters and how you do it. But I just know this, they can be mad at me. They can want an apology. They're not getting one for a few reasons. One, I don't know enough yet to apologize. I know Ivermectin does not have the research behind it to be seen as a surefire cure for anything that we're talking about here. Two, what I was working off then still stands, which is that was a very extreme position to take and you shouldn't be taking it.

The third thing is what matters least, but most in this context, they only want an apology to beat me over the head with it on every media clip that they can put everywhere of see, see, he admits we were right about everything. Now all of them will apologize. I'm not playing that game. Well, I would say you should only apologize if you believe you should apologize. But even if you think you should apologize for something,

like I shouldn't have said this, it was wrong about you. I was wrong. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. I have no problem with that. I'm married 20 something years. I know how to apologize.

Yeah. And I'm wrong a lot. Yeah. I also don't know that I'm wrong. If we were to do a review and they were to say, wow, telling anyone to get the vaccine except this one group was wrong. I'll say, I shouldn't have said that everybody

should get vaccinated while I was there because now we know this was the right parameter, this was the wrong one. I'll do that, I have no problem doing that. But we know what they want the apology for. They don't want it because now we're acting in good faith and we're on the same page. They'll still hate me,

they'll just have something to beat me over the head with. I'm actually not totally sure of that. I suspect, again, I'm not saying you should apologize if you don't think you should apologize, but I can tell you that largely people on the right, generally speaking, if they see an act of contrition, they love when someone evolves because generally as people get older,

they start becoming a little more conservative, right? So if you're not liberal in your 20s, you have no heart. And if you're not conservative in your 30s, you have no brain. And I have found that conservatives, if they see someone that's kind of an old school Democrat or the son of the former governor and brother of the former governor,

if like waking up and maybe this will change some of your other, like RFK right now, it's very obvious to me, he's going through his own political thing and he will end up far more right, not far right, but he's going through his thing. Well, being an anti-vaxxer, he's pretty far over there anyway.

That doesn't make sense to me as far right, but putting aside that little- You know, you hear a lot of Democrats saying that they're against the vaccine. No, but it used to be a position of more lefties, the hippie lefties that were the anti-vax and women. Yeah, but putting aside the label thing for a second, generally I think that for whatever contrition you feel

maybe is there still or needs to be worked out, I think you will consistently find people on the right willing to talk to you. And the more that you do that, you will find people on the left that want nothing to do with you and only burden you. No, I find that they'll all nothing to do with you and only burn. No, I find that they'll all talk to me, right and left.

And that all of them are in what you guys now call the owning business, which I believe is like the lowest rung of debate. By the way, I don't do any of that. But that's the commodity, right? When you see the clips, because a lot of times, they're my clips of me owning some. Yeah. I'm not in the winning business. Yeah. I'm not in the debating business. I just want to give people food for thought about things

and hold power to account. Now, you'll say, well, then you should have done it during COVID. There is no one covering the remaining questions of what's happening the way I have since I came back on TV. No one. Now, I'm not saying Dr. McCullough, I'm not a doctor. I'm saying in the media, a journalist who covers long COVID

or what's going on with the vaccine and not being asked right now, more than I do. Why? Because I wanna piss off the left as much as possible. Why? Because I want a group of people on the far right who will never like me to pretend to like me? No, because it's the right thing to do.

A lot of people are sick. There are questions that we don't understand that we have to. COVID is not going anywhere. Whether you had COVID or not, whether you're vaccinated or not, you're gonna be exposed to COVID. And God forbid you or someone you know

is gonna have a funky malady that people are gonna think is one thing and it's gonna be spike protein based. Could it be from the vaccine? Maybe. Can definitely be from the virus. And no one's doing anything about it. I am a different person because of having COVID. I have allergies, I have oxygen capacity issues. I never had it. I was a division one level athlete, okay? And you're Vax, I assume. I am, but I had my symptoms before I got vaccinated. Like my COVID just never fucking went away.

And my VO2 max came back. But maybe, again, I'm not your doctor, but maybe that had something to do with the Vax, maybe. No, but I had it, I was sick before I got vaccinated. No, no, sure, but now these symptoms that you now have. No, I had them before I got vaccinated. No, no, sure, but now these symptoms that you now have. No, I had them before I got vaccinated. No, no, sure, but you now have them for a long period of time.

It might have something to do with the fact that the vaccine is not a vaccine. I mean, look, is it possible that the vaccine may have added something to me? It's not that it's not a vaccine. It's a therapeutic that worked to reduce viral load and the ability of the virus to expand within the body. The problem is what they didn't know at the time and what they know now is they give it

to you, they give it to me. You have a really strong immune system, so you don't make that much spike protein because your body's too strong. I have a weak immune system. I make a shit ton of spike protein and it overwhelms different systems in my body and starts to affect my blood vessels, in my liver or in my brain or my heart. They're just learning that now. They did not know that at the time. They should have started talking about it more when they did and they didn't. It's one of the questions I'm chasing. But let me tell you, I know that conversation is the cure.

And I am very happy to have you on my couch and talk to you and I'll come on your show anytime. Absolutely, I appreciate it. And I will tell you one other thing, we know when we were walking over here, said I have no freaking idea what to expect. I've been pretty damn critical of this guy. I don't know if he thinks I'm a maniac or an asshole or what, but I've absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this.

And anyone that's angling for something true, which I can see you are, like that's what I'm interested in. I don't, I'm not interested in who's fighting with who on the right and who can own who. And I'm not even interested in the debate thing. Like even when I saw the, the you and Smith doing that thing with PBD, I was like, I'm kind of even over that. I'm interested in figuring out how we can solve some

problems right now. Because otherwise we're going to give away the most precious freaking thing ever. So let's not do that. Well, I'm with you. I wish you well, and I don't care if we don't agree on things, because I'll probably learn from you.

There is nothing scarier than a person who believes they got it all figured out. And is there change over time? Fine, and you never have to apologize for being wrong. You could just change your opinion. It's a shame it's too early for tequila. At least for me, at least for me. I love it.

That's never too early. It's the only thing you said that 100% I know is wrong. Dave Rubin, big following and for obvious and big reason. It was good to talk to him. There's plenty more to be discussed, but it's about the way you disagree. Disagreement is fine. Owning, demonizing. That's all bullshit. That is all for effect and to get clicks and to build platforms and make your money. It doesn't make change. And that's what we should be about. That's what Let's Get After It is

about. Confront our problems, have our disagreements, figure out how to fix and get to a better place. Thank you, the three out of 10 of my listeners and followers who subscribed to the channel. Where are the other seven of you? Come on, join, follow, subscribe. And if you care about the long COVID, please get involved with my sub stack.

I'll see you on News Nation, AP and 11P every weekday night my sub stack. I'll see you on News Nation AP and 11P every weekday night. My friends, I'll see you there. The problems are real, but show still should be our resolve to get to a better place. How? You gotta get after it.