The Chris Cuomo Project - Free Agent, Sean Penn, Andrii Yermak, and Ukraine

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

In the debut of The Chris Cuomo Project, renowned broadcast journalist Chris Cuomo addresses his absence from the airwaves, his ongoing personal transformation, and what it means to be a “free agent.” Academy Award-winning actor and activist Sean Penn joins Chris for a conversation about his forthcoming documentary about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Andrii Yermak, Ukraine’s Head of the Presidential Administration, speaks with Chris about his nation’s ongoing battle. Plus, a military veteran volunteering to provide safe passage to Ukrainian refugees shares his experience of the situation on the ground.  Subscribe and follow The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Thursday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, I'm Chris Cuomo, and welcome to my home. First, thank you. Thank you for being here, and thank you for all the good thoughts. Thank you for checking in on me and the family, and for telling me to get back here. I really appreciate all of it more than you can imagine. I'm sorry it took this long, but as you may know, this has been an interesting few months for me. took this long, but as you may know, this has been an interesting few months for me. Some hardship, yes, but also a renewed sense of purpose. Now, for me, the past is the past,

and there is no benefit to you if I re-litigate what was said and done involving my brother. And there are some outstanding legal fights that I have to respect. But let me be clear. I really do regret how everything ended, but I will never regret helping my family. I promised my father I would always be there for my brother, and I always will be, just like he has always been there for me, just like my sisters have been there for me and have been there for him. That's family. Now, still there is loss and there's sadness. Being a reliable source of information and analysis for you matters to me a great deal. And I really have missed being able to help and communicate, especially during such wild times for all of us. As for CNN, I'll never be a hater. CNN has great people. CNN has a great

purpose. And I wish them all the best. And I miss so many of the people there. But it's time for me to move on. And I believe I can be more than I ever was before, especially with your help. But before we get to now, I do have to recognize one group of people. My amazing team. The people who made my show number one at CNN from jump and kept it there, they never get the credit that they deserve. It's always about the hair and the teeth, the people on TV. I didn't get to say goodbye, and I am sorry about that. I'm sorry that circumstances made it impossible to tell you face-to-face how much each and all of you mean to me. I just want to say thank you very much for everything you did for me and for the audience. So I am back and I am here to help

any way that I can, personally, professionally. That's what the Tomal of the past few months has reminded me, has taught me, has galvanized in me. I took the time to refocus, to rethink what matters. How can I make a difference in my life personally, for my family, for the people I care about, and for you, especially in uncertain and dangerous times. And they are. I don't want to sound like some politician because I'm not, but all of us could just look around and see that there are a lot of things that we have to know more about and talk about and understand and fix. Now, to many of you, I probably sound different than you remember or maybe that you expect. And that's because I am. Now more than ever before, I'm talking to you as me. I've always been real and tried to be authentic when it comes to how I speak to you on television. But be very clear, these words are only my own.

They have not been massaged to stay on message. No one is telling me to stay on a story, even if I think it's been run into the ground. Nobody's going to, I encourage, the stoking of flames that I believe should be smothered. I'm done with that game. And it is a game. It's measured minute

by minute for what resonates, processed by groups of pros before being relayed to those who present to the audience. And I'll tell you more about that. But be clear, again, I'm not pitching some conspiracy BS, okay? Our media is good and strong. I believe it's the best I've ever seen in this world. Are there problems? Yes. Are they getting worse? Yes. I know what they are.

I've struggled with them myself, and I can show them to you in real time in situations that matter. But my goal is not some gotcha contest. It's not to say, don't listen to them, listen to me. Anyone who tells you that has an agenda of their own and they're just trying to get paid, just trying to be relevant.

My goal is to help all of us get to a better place. I know there are solutions. I know there are better ways that we can speak to each other, dialogue, which means listening. There are changes we can make as a group and yes, as individuals. That's why I'm back.

That's why I'm reaching out. And that's why I'm asking for more of you to recognize yourselves as free agents. Okay, a free agent to me is someone who's not tied to any party, team, or tribe. You're not burdened by affiliation or agenda or dogma. You have an open mind, an open heart, and you're willing to listen, to learn why others agree and disagree, that you are open at least to the possibility that someone project, okay? I want you to be able to

benefit from what I know about why the media covers things the way they do, but also about why politicians operate the way they do. And I mean that. Operate. They're operators. I'm not being cynical, but we got to be skeptical. We have to look at why things happen the way they do. I want to share experiences that I've had, and I want to hear about experiences you've had. I believe we can help each other. I believe we can help others. And I know damn well it's worth the effort and I'll make it every time out. That I guarantee. Chris Cuomo project. Why? I call it a project because a project is a collaborative enterprise that is carefully planned to achieve a particular aim. That's the definition. And for me, that definition is you and me sharing information, sharing experience that led to insight to help us reach better understanding of what's coming at us from everywhere else.

I really see this as a chance to bring all I have seen and learned, bring it all to bear in a positive way. bear in a positive way. So to what matters now, do you remember the beautiful talent and spirit that was Nightbird? You remember the singer who wowed even Simon Cowell on America's Got Talent? You probably do because she went totally viral, but if not, Google her, okay? I loved bringing her to you on my old show. I loved her special reminder of how precious our blessings are and how powerful our determination can be. You know, Jane was her name. We kept in touch. She was so good to me. She helped me when I was finding my way. Now, imagine that. Jane was fighting this vicious metastatic form of cancer, and she was worried

about me. She reminded me of her famous thought, you don't get to wait for everything in your life to be okay before you decide to be happy. God, was she telling the truth. So easy to say, so hard to do, right? And she kept reminding me, hey, when you're figuring out what to do next, all that matters is that your work reflects something bigger than you. A bigger idea, a bigger ideal, a bigger goal. She was right and smart and a gift. And I really do miss her. She encouraged me to do my own show, to come directly to you,

to be more myself, to talk about not just politics, but struggle. And not just reward people like her for fighting for their own needs, but to talk about her process and her pain. She promised that she was going to be my first guest on this show. And now, of course, she is gone, but I know that I will, and I hope that you will always remember her spirit and keeping your own life clear about respecting your blessings. And I will try to keep this show about making things better and sharing what I've seen and lived, even when it's painful, even when it's about my flaws. sharing what I've seen and lived, even when it's painful, even when it's about my flaws. I really have seen all sides of our media and politics. Now, on the media side,

you may not know this, but I started at Fox News working for Roger Ailes. I ended at CNN working for Jeff Zucker, two of the most impactful, powerful, talented, and of course, controversial media moguls. In between, I spent over a decade working with giants at ABC News, over 20 years covering most of the major events all over this country and this world. That's why I look so old. I've been an eyewitness to so many things, certainly history, the worst of what the world has to offer, of what humanity has to offer, war, disease, terror, violence, but also us at our best. Charity, collaboration for good cause, beauty, all up close, all over this country, all over the world. I have seen the best and the worst that mankind has to offer. Now, that alone is a rare pedigree that I am very grateful for.

But here's the interesting thing. Media is only half of my pedigree. I'm a lawyer by training. I worked in structured finance. But most importantly, for our project's purposes, I was raised in politics, okay? I didn't learn this in school. I didn't get on the job experience over time. I lived it at the foot of a giant named Mario Cuomo, three-term governor of New York, national voice for the old Democratic Party. I literally grew up watching Pop's Amazing Ride. His main advisor started as a teen himself, also taught me how to ride a bike and throw a ball and a punch. Of course, that's my brother Andrew. He also served as governor for almost three terms. He was state attorney general before that. And he's had his own issues that he has to deal with and has had to deal with over the last couple of years.

Now, what does that mean about me? I spent decades at the table watching and listening to generations of journalists, big shots, presidents of both parties, countless campaigns. shots, presidents of both parties, countless campaigns. For example, one of the guys I grew up around, the guy who eventually counseled me to leave the law and to enter the media, to give it a shot, his name was Tim Russert of Meet the Press fame. Before he was a big shot on TV, he worked for my father. He was one of Pop's speechwriters, and he was super tight with my brother. I learned from him. I watched him. He was good to me, and I miss him. So it was a unique upbringing. I mean, imagine your Pop telling you to answer the phone, and on the other end was a big-shot advisor to President Clinton,

and they were chasing my father to accept a Supreme Court nomination. And Pop wasn't ready to answer, so he didn't want to get on the phone. Should he run for president? Should he be a Supreme Court justice? It's heady stuff compared to most kitchen table fare, right? But that's how I grew up. So I know how politicians work.

I know how they work the media. And I know as well as anyone how news coverage works. You know, it reminds me sometimes of the Matrix. You remember when Neo just starts to see the code after a while? I just get why things are happening and being covered very often the way they are, for better or worse. And now I can tell you what I see that is being missed, exaggerated, underplayed. And the goal is simple. I want you to be able to make your own choices. That's it. I don't really care what those choices are. I'm not going to try to push my own choices on you. I'm really not interested enough in what I believe to put it on you.

But I am deeply, profoundly interested in helping you get the best of what is around you and the choices that you have to make. Now, why here? This space is a little different and digital is the future that's not because mainstream media is bad in my opinion it's because that access to the ability to create content and communicate is expanding and it's expanding reach and it's expanding our ability to interact and i know that people want alternatives and I want to provide one. Again, not because I think that your other choices stink. Okay. I'm not in that game. I just know that what I can offer is different and I hope for you in some way better. Okay. Now, part of that is I have to change. I mean, journalists don't usually share personal

opinions or positions, right? It's a nod to impartiality. It also keeps them out of trouble. But maybe the time has come to be more transparent. My goal here is fairness. Now, I may not agree with an argument, and I'll tell you that. But I will also give you that argument on its best footing. I'm not going to cherry pick facts and find ways to make somebody else's opinion seems weak so mine seems stronger. That's not my game. So, transparency. Okay, here's the deal.

I am a Cuomo and I'm proud of it. I was raised in a profoundly Italian family in a large Italian neighborhood. My block went like this, name by name. Cuomo, who was my father's godfather, Ross. Capolongo, Cuomo, us. Squatieri, Vitale, Testani, Favusa. My grandparents were new to this country. Italian was spoken. We celebrated in a traditional way. Fig trees were wrapped for winter. Yes, people made their own wine. People largely went to Catholic church. And family was everything, especially when they were in trouble. especially when they were in trouble. The formula was simple. Family, trouble, go. In the best of times, you could beat each other's throats, but in the worst of times, you had to be there. So as a teen, my father became governor. Everything changed. Goodbye middle-class life. The biggest celebrities I knew before Pop became governor

were these two local kids who made it on a show called Dance Fever. Remember that, Denny Terrio? And there was a sister of an uncle by marriage who was a backup singer for Barry Manilow. Those were the big shots. But then Pop became famous, governor of the immigrant Mecca, New York. And Mario was the man and the metaphor. His parents barely knew the language. And now he was one of the most eloquent in politics. National figure. He had his name shouted from trucks and sidewalks as he passed by until the day he died. Now, Pop was a Democrat, okay? To him, that meant fighting for the working class, for the little guy exclusively. The new immigrant was absolutely who he identified with. The Republicans were the elites. Seems to me now

that the parties have switched, at least in terms of the perspective on it or the perception of them. So how did my father and his politics shape my own? Fair question. He was a Democrat, but not like today. He wasn't about this zero sum, you know, inaction is action, opposition is a legitimate position. He wasn't about manufactured culture wars or massive government. His slogan was all the government you need, but only the government you need. No extreme ideas of redistribution. He was highly anti-elitist. He was literally

disappointed when I got into Yale. He wanted me to go to his alma mater, St. John's in Queens. He was obsessed with his record of getting things done. I know he was known for speeches, but that's not what mattered to him. Believe me. What did he do? What did he pass? How many budgets? All these little things that we never talk about. Now, people can fairly disagree with my father's positions. That's okay. But nobody who's being honest, who knew him, will question his integrity or his determination to make things happen for the people of his state. And I don't think it is that way anymore. Not in his party, not in the other one, not in the system.

My brother was his own man and a different kind of governor from Pop, but he too fought Pop's good fight the way he saw it for the little guy. And he tried hard to get things done. I love my father. I love my brother. I respect them both tremendously, but I'm no Democrat. Not simply because I'm in the media. And I am not here to make any of you feel comfortable being a lefty. I want you to question why you are. I want you to question everything. Skepticism here is the rule, not cynicism. Okay. We have enough of that, But clear-eyed. What's right and what's wrong. Not group think. Now, on the other side of the ball, I have Republicans, I have Trumpers among my friends. And I mean my real friends, not just, you know, people I take pictures with at events.

My first vote ever. How many reporters tell you this? My first vote ever, George H.W. Bush, 1988. My father supported Dukakis. Why? I was at Yale and Bush was a Yaley. But that's the truth. That was my first vote that I ever cast. But I'm not a Republican either. Now, here's the truth.

I am not Democrat or Republican, but not because of what I think of them. It's because I reject both. I am anti the two-party partisanship. I don't believe in it. I think the two-party system is part of our problem. We need more parties. We need more parties. We need ranked choice voting at a minimum. Now, this won't fix what happens in the presidential elections because of the electoral college. I'm happy to bring on arguments about what to do about the electoral college, but I don't think there's any chance that you'll ever get a constitutional amendment. The only thing is if the purple states, the swing states decide to make their state rule an apportionment of electors. We'll get into that. President Washington, he was right in the beginning.

Parties destroy patriotism. Here's his quote. If we mean to support the liberty and independence that have cost us so much, we must drive far away the demon of party spirit. He warned that parties become targets for unprincipled men. This is his quote, unprincipled men to subvert the power of the people. Just be Americans, he said. Be a nation. That's it. That's his quote. Look it up. Boy, have we fallen off. That's why I ascribe to the idea of being a free agent, not merely independent. What's the difference? 40% of us say we are independents now. Now, that's a rejection of the party system, and that makes sense. But independent means you're out for yourself. That can't work in America. We have to be

connected. We have to be interconnected, interdependent, not independent. Now, caring about one another also doesn't mean that you have to be sheeple, okay, or tied to a party like some lousy team, no matter what it thinks. I've been watching the dynamic over the last few months, right, because I've been on the sidelines. And I see how forced the division is. I always knew that, but now I like, you know, really smack you in the face. How little we try to relate to common causes and concerns. You know, most of us want the same things.

Most people are regular, not extreme in their wants and their notions. Most don't hate what or whom they disagree with. You want politicians to be there for you, not in a blood sport that's about them and trying to scare us all into an us versus them hellscape. You want the media to be transparent, accurate, and advocate for your interests. I've always understood this and tried to tap into it. That's why I reported from home during COVID. I was sick and it helped me to have

something to look forward to other than fever. But I also knew that it would help people deal with the boogeyman of illness and to see what the reality was with that first tough strain, even for a healthy, basically fit, not elderly yet person. So many of you reached out with your own issues and your own insights, thanking me for making that effort. I've never felt anything like that in this business before, that sense of value to you. It was like we were all family. That's also why recently I decided to go to Ukraine. Obviously, I was in no position to cover it initially because I didn't have a platform, and that really hurt. But I saw the coverage dropping off. And be clear, don't point your finger at the media. This is about you. This is about what people want to see. If you wanted to know more

about Ukraine, you would have very brave men and women all over that place in all of the hottest spots. This is not about the bravery or the daring do, as we used to say, of the media. This is about what we care about. Now, look, it goes hand in glove, right? The media should be pushing these stories. They should be showing you the desperation of it. But more importantly to me, when I was there, I was blown away by the people. They deserve our attention. The stakes at play. The principles they're fighting for should really matter to you, especially in America.

And yeah, America has given billions and billions, but we seem to be telling ourselves that's enough. I'm telling you that's going to prove to be a costly mistake. Ukrainians are fighting for the freedoms that we hold dear here. We pledge, give us liberty or give us death. That's what the forefathers put on the table and gave their blood for it. That's what the Ukrainians are doing.

Ukrainians are dying. They really do remind me of America 240 or so years ago when the Brits came back. They are true patriots. I saw something there that I really would love to see here without the exigency of somebody in an existential crisis against us. They are all together. They have divisions in their society. Not as much as here, they're much more homogenous. But the divisions have all but faded in the shadow of a unifying threat. They are literally living unity until death. Got to pay attention to what's happening now. For their sake, but yes, for ours as well.

Why? What do you think happens next? The latest is Russia saying, you come near Crimea, it's going to be judgment day. What does that mean? You really think Russia wouldn't do something reckless? The way they're killing people and innocents and maiming in Ukraine? You really think they'll stop in the East? You really think they'll stop in Ukraine? That they won't expand in more ways that compromise our interests? We've got to care. And that's why this first episode is about me talking to you, but now me sharing with you insights that you may not have gotten into Ukraine. Now, I'm going to put up some video that we shot there. The villages there are being razed like World War II. People are still living there, burned out, desperate, scared, unarmed, outmanned, outgunned. World War II era foxhole fighting. Okay? Hand dug. No technology.

These holes in the ground that they hide in that are too often becoming graves. They are living that pledge of give me liberty or give me death. And we have to be aware. So let's talk to the man that I was with in Ukraine, Sean Penn. You know him as an amazing actor, but also an activist on the ground with his organization, CORE, the Community Organized Relief Effort. They did so much during COVID. They're on the ground in Haiti and they are in Poland and Ukraine trying to help with the humanitarian crisis, which is getting worse all the time. He got extraordinary access at the beginning of this conflict. He was with President Zelensky in the bunker at the beginning of the war.

And he's been going back and monitoring what's going wrong and what it means and what Russia is doing. I teamed up with him and his co-director, Aaron Kaufman. I watched what they were seeing. And we went to the Eastern Front together, a place that you get very little access to. And let's hear why it matters to Penn to take the risks that he's taking and what surprises him most about the lack of connection between Ukraine and America. We don't fake the funk here. And here's the real talk.

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And here's the real talk. Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70. I know it's taboo, it's embarrassing, but it shouldn't be. Thankfully, we now have HIMS, and it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment, and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why? Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments. And you do it right from your couch. HIMSS provides access to clinically proven,

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going to need a subscription it's required plus price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. Sean, good to see you, brother. Good to see you, Chris. I want to thank you first for letting me join your team, letting me see what CORE is doing and let me see what Inside Ukraine is really about. I appreciate you. I appreciate you coming. It was helpful to all of us to have you there. You got good background there and always got a sharp mind to go with it. It was very helpful.

When did you realize that what you had thought this documentary was going to be about had changed? Yeah. So the history of the documentary was a partner and I, Billy Smith, originally started out working on a documentary. We were going to do one after the killing of Khashoggi. I had been doing some trips into Syria at that time, and I felt that I had some access that would have been unique to the documentary world. And we were going to branch that out, go down to Saudi Arabia, go to Russia, talk about the Russian perspective on the war there. We were very interested in an American prisoner named Austin Tice. There was a kind of multi-pronged story that we wanted to tell of the region and its impact on the United States and U.S. impact on the region.

For various reasons, that didn't pan out. Somebody kind of got there ahead of us with a big budgeted documentary. We ended up sharing our contacts with that person, letting them roll. We went back to the drawing board, and then Billy came to me, having made acquaintance with a friend of President Zelensky. At that point, President Zelensky was to myself and to most Americans most notable for a dynamic phone call with the President of the United States, Donald Trump, and for having been a comedic actor who had become president after playing a character who became president. There wasn't much else that was being

discussed at the dinner tables about Ukraine at that time, and we thought we'd go down that trail. As we move forward to encounter Zelensky, which we did on Zoom because this was during COVID, and it was very difficult to visit anyone, much less a head of state, during that pandemic. We developed a camaraderie. during that pandemic. We developed a camaraderie. And then when COVID was at bay to some degree, we found time to go down in November. In November, the struggles that had been going on since 2014, as you know, Crimea and some of the east, where there were thousands killed, but nothing like the bloodbath we're seeing today. We went and traveled Mariupol, Kiev, you know, speaking of military, speaking of cultural figures, moving towards speaking to this president that would have been the focus of our documentary.

An immediate crisis in the country kept that from happening, and so we resolved to go back in February. By February, we were hearing all of the tensions rising, all of the talking heads and experts in the intelligence community and military community and others were assuring the world that there was going to be a Russian invasion. Others were not so sure. I was among those who weren't so sure. It seemed like there wasn't a tremendous upside in a practical sense for Putin and Russia. But each day we were being told more and more that American diplomats and others were being ordered to leave Kiv, which they did. We chose that time to go to Kiv to meet with the president.

We met with him on the first promised day without cameras to let him get an eyeball on us and see if we would be trusted with opening up his story, his life, his presidential view of the country to us. That meeting went very well. Very early the next morning, having made a meeting with cameras for the following day, the invasion began. So when we met with him next, it was on the day of the invasion, during the invasion, and we had a brand new documentary to tell. Why did you stay? Well, I think there are a lot, there are many situations where one can, I mean, you and I have both been in situations that we would call sketch and sketch probably more quickly than some others would. You know, there are soldiers, there are civilians, and there are conflict journalists who stay very long times in very sketchy areas. The statistics seem to work very well on our side. We weren't going to be there for a long stay.

And we were at a point of history that I knew was affecting me in a very kind of heartbreaking way. It seemed to extend immediately to all that I grew up with believing was America, all that would be my children's future. Here were people fighting for democracy and incredible unification movement, everything that we'd been longing for here. And it felt like home. And so I wanted to go and see the current father of that home and see what he could tell us about the new world that had happened on that day. So we stayed. The invasion, it looked as though at some point that Kiev, the city of Kiev, was going to be encircled. At a certain point, within a couple of days, we made the decision to pull the trigger and get out rather than be hunkered down for the next six weeks, each of us having family obligations, not looking to tell the wartime documentary per se that could be recorded on a lot of people's cell phones, but feeling that we had gotten directly to the heart of the issue and knowing we'd go back. Made a couple of trips back, went back to Lviv about two months later, and then this last trip with you to the East and to Kyiv. What do you want Americans to understand when you describe that you feel an Americanism there that sometimes seems absent here. Yeah, I think the word normalization has been used a lot since 2016. Whatever anybody's perspective on Trump administration, certainly

it's changed the way that we absorb media. It's changed the way that we look at leadership. It's largely dismissed accurate accountability for people in public service, and it's put it into a kind of, you know, a popularity poll mentality, sort of like a contest winner from a game show, or the ones that hold the positions but with no accountability to the systems that we claim to cherish. With Ukraine, there is every bit the amount of diversity of thought in that population as there is here in the United States. However, there is every bit the unity of purpose that makes for a country, that makes for a community.

And then with that, it comes at a time where it's coupled with great, great courage, something that's a kind of mystical part of our better beings. And so to go there and to see what I had normalized of the aspiration of America and sort of hypnotized myself in the believing was part of my daily life. I didn't know that it wasn't until I was in such a circumstance with people who are truly fighting for freedom with their minds, their hearts and their bodies, with their families at risk. It's a very moving, inspiring gift of a place to have spent time. What do you tell people back home who say, hey, I feel you, Sean, but it's their war, not ours. And we gave them $70 billion. I mean, haven't we done enough? What do you say? Yeah, well, talking about dollars when talking about military budgets is really kind of a smoke

and mirrors enterprise. I mean, I don't want to be a wonk on this, but anybody who wants to go down that road a little bit further will understand that they will be the same people putting money in the tills of, let's say, sub-Saharan African for-profits when it comes to feeding them when the food security issues based on the Ukraine being cut off by the Russians is dried up. Now, we know, you know, there's a little-known piece of trivia that in our richest farmland, say, Iowa, we've got about one foot of black soil. Ukraine has three feet to our every one foot of black soil. It's one of the richest farming lands in the world, black soil. It's one of the richest farming lands in the world and therefore is responsible for feeding not only us, but also sub-Saharan Africa. Whatever price tag one puts on the military defense budget, it's never difficult to just double that. What you and I have seen in Ukraine is a simple doubling of that budget will save us enormous amounts of money, will fight a fight that represents our values,

and will put it behind the team that is most deserving of it. We are going to give that more money, but we're going to give it too long and too slow. And as a result, we're going to have more reconstruction, more destruction, and more death among civilians and others. And this is going to be a protracted war of attrition, just as Vladimir Putin planned it. I don't know of anyone in the community who thinks otherwise. I think that what's happening is that we're throwing money with the caution of political campaigns, and we are not arming a righteous military to protect its sovereign grounds. And it is tragic. It's a tragic state of things in this country, and it's a particularly tragic state of things in Ukraine. I can't find anybody in doing my research from the military analyst community,

experts on the policy in the area, who doesn't believe that this is just the beginning. That if America needs a reason to care is that if you don't stop this now, Putin has no reason. Russia has no reason. stop this now. Putin has no reason. Russia has no reason. Even its society has no reason to stop at eastern Ukraine, all of Ukraine, or any of the surrounding now NATO signatories until they get back what they used to have. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's clearly laying itself out to any common sense minded observer. Then you throw in Taiwan and China. And I've heard the argument, in fact, that we are saving our stockpile knowing that we are going to be entering World War III

in China. Well, what greater deterrent than that, than standing up for the values this country has and doing it in a way that is in our reach? Furthermore, there are deeper sanctions. doing it in a way that is in our reach. Furthermore, there are deeper sanctions. Those two would be the central bank, for example. Those two would be a deterrent for a wise China to perhaps negotiate instead of warfight. We've got if we don't stand up now, we're going to have to stand up later. Those who are concerned about nuclear war, I believe, are positioning the least likely result over the most righteous result. And as long as there are nuclear weapons, we know that we've got a problem. But we're talking about a country that gave up 20,000 nuclear warheads in an agreement that

they would not be invaded. We signed on to that. If we fail that agreement, what does that say to all the other nuclear nations? The United States is at a tipping point in terms of its credibility. We've worried about its credibility through the use of drones, through various international policy decisions that have been made from Iraq to today. But there's nothing, there's nothing like our credibility around deproliferation of nuclear weapons that this world is counting on or will respect us for or believe us when

we say what we're going to do. on or will respect us for or believe us when we say what we're going to do. And so I think that if we're going to play all of our cards against one man, who, by the way, it would not be one man who presses a little red button. There are generals whose children were going to schools in America. There are generals who were getting their playtime done with their mistresses in London who all want to go back to business as usual, who are surrounding Mr. Putin. They, too, would have to participate in this obscene notion of nuclear war. I don't think that it would likely happen.

And if it does, that can't be the threat under which we will do nothing. Because then we just trade off our freedom today. Many people, it's changing, but many people, when they see your face, identify you as a master of make-believe. You don't have to feel that way yourself, but too bad. That's how you are respected and recognized. What drives your deep interest in going to bad places and bad situations and not just witnessing yourself, but taking steps as you have in Haiti and now as the sign behind you says with CORE, testing for COVID, vaccines for COVID, and now you're setting up in Poland and trying to get

access to Ukraine. What drives this interest of getting so involved and so exposed to situations around the world? Well, I think first there's the magnet of curiosity that I would wish on anyone. Secondarily, there is the handicap of a visual mind. I don't read a book or a newspaper or a streaming site and absorb things very well until I've seen it. I sit at dinner tables most of my life, not being able to keep up with the conversation. But when going, and I've had the privilege and the luxury of being able to travel to places where I feel magnets pull, privilege and the luxury of being able to travel to places where I feel magnets pull. And it's there, starting with the commonalities that we have as human beings. We've all talked about it, where, geez, if I can just get my kid into a good school,

if I can have decent health care, if I can have access to reasonable food, there isn't a lot of fundamentalism that goes into that mix. As soon as those things are out of reach, you start to get a violent world. So I've been very interested. My curiosity has led me to those parts of the violent world, whether it be politically violent or literally violent, where human behavior is taken to a level where I just shake my head as a Vietnam-era child watching what we call the war show on television thinking, boy, our adults are so stupid. You don't have to do this. And at least to paint some initial observations on solutions in my head, to see that the world isn't just madness. And I think that that's what it has been. I think there's something healing in those

trips and those explorations. I'm still not going to go down as God's genius on any of this, but being able to reach out and touch those parts of the world that are aiming their arrow tips at us, at my children, to see what's been demonized and find out why, to scratch the surface of why. I think that's the humble journey, you know, as best I can do. And then share that with like-minded or like-less-minded people than myself in whatever way I can do and then share that with like minded or like less minded people than myself in whatever way I can. We've gotten to know each other well, and I want you to explain to people what it means to you to be able to say I went to where it is at its worst. Most people in your position absolutely don't do that. Ukraine's leadership was not pumped about you wanting to do it. They showed us the HIMARS, which is obviously the missile defense system that they want more from the U.S.

You gave me a look and said, this isn't the reality that people need to see. Then they took us to an artillery post, uh, which was very dangerous and in a town under active shelling. Uh, and you said, this is not the reality they need to say. No bravado, no cowboy matter of fact. And then of course we wound up, uh, with the fighting men in their foxhole in a place where they felt very confident. And then it wound up changing hands some 48 hours after we left. What is the value in that exposure and witnessing it and being able to show it to others? Well, I'm hoping there's a value in it. The difficulty is in translating, you know, you can see men in trenches who have been in those trenches living that life as a fighter for freedom for many months or in some case years.

What's harder to show is their families living in occupied territories, their wives, their children. The atrocities of the Russians are more than documented, they are proven. This is a terrorist mission as well as it is a special operation and a war that's been brought to Ukraine by the Russians and by Vladimir Putin. To see a man fighting that fight or a woman fighting that fight, knowing the abuses that are going on in a home they cannot at this point return to, and still fighting for that freedom that in spirit will translate to those family members behind those lines in the dream that one day they will retake those places, to see their homes evaporated by random missiles. We should be able to celebrate life and joy in sync with an understanding, a true human understanding of that. We're not alive when we're doing one without the other until the other is not going on anymore. So the hope, for example, in the documentary is to bring a little bit of that home through those people who are fighting their fight.

They're not extraordinary people. We talked, I thought a lot, what it is, what is a hero? At a certain point, it's the only job we do when it means our child's next breath. We don't suddenly get a feel that cape coming over our shoulders and that we can take flight. We take one day in front of one foot in front of the other. We try to pass off a joke with our friend because we've got to keep our humor alive in the most violent, the most venal of all circumstances, which is this continuing romance with war that the human species engages in. continuing romance with war that the human species engages in. And from the comfort of where I now sit, where you now sit,

as two guys who've looked each other in a very uncomfortable human zone, I can look at you with great respect and affection. I can tell you a joke fully without ever losing track of what the rest of the world might be going through. And I think that that's the human experience we should seek every single day until that black eye has remedied itself. Well said. Why do you think, you know, one of the amazing things that people will appreciate in this film is you've gotten tremendous, unprecedented as a hackneyed expression, but access. We're going to talk about the interview that you did with President Zelensky. I've said it to you. I've said it to everybody. I've told about the trip.

I believe it is, if not the best, one of the most moving interviews with the president I've ever seen. And not because you were there to hold his feet to the fire and all the other gotcha stuff that we value here, but because of the bond between the two of you and what he revealed emotionally about the existential nature of this crisis. And in trying to get people to care more, you know, you had a source there who understands the intel very well. It's not just killing. There are atrocities going on. They are killing our children. Your source told us about raping and castration of men in occupied areas.

Why do you think that that is not echoing all over the world? Well, I think that it will echo all over the world. There are interpolitical decisions that are decided upon because, for example, I would speculate that there is a framing moment for the ukrainians uh and putting that out there relative to the morale and the go get them fight of these young men particularly uh there is an inherent terror uh that comes with being a young man fighting where uh capture means castration um it's easier to get shot in the head, I think, in most people's, you know, theoretical sense of things. personality of military strategy are are truly looking to infuse that that Ukrainian uh fighting team with those kinds of nightmares uh it will do some good but I think it will it will ultimately uh raise the ire and uh through you know, it is its own direct attack on freedom.

It's a visceral one. And in, you know, for anyone who believes that the truth will overpower the lie, I think that the truth is that courage is bigger than castration. is that courage is bigger than castration. And that in the end, every single day, every single Russian who participates this war will have castrated themselves for a lifetime. There will be no coming back from the kind of behaviors that they're exhibiting and there will be no victory.

What did you read in President Zelensky's emotional, poignant, powerful, and pained, not to be alliterative, but to be accurate, real conversation with you about what's at stake here and his confusion as to America's reticence. Not that they haven't been helpful. He's very grateful, very thankful, but that America, its leadership, its people doesn't seem to get what's at stake for them. You know, you were there. I don't think that his His intention was to speak to a system that is paralyzed by its own political immediacies. But I do think that that was underlying all that he did say. I think, you know, when I went to Ukraine during the February invasion, I got those red messages on my phones from the United States government basically saying, don't go under no circumstances. Go. Well, they had everything on there. I didn't even know they had access to my phone.

They had everything on there, except any language of prohibition. There's a ban, there's an embargo, so on and so forth, which meant that as an American citizen, I had every right to go. But do know the cavalry won't be there if you get in trouble, et cetera, et cetera. I know that when I've gotten myself involved in other such excursions, I've had the FBI knock on my door very diligently there looking out for my safety because I had reached a color code of a potential threat warning me. All this is to say that in my experience with the United States government, it is, if it is great at anything, it is caution. And as that bleeds through into the choices that politicians make

with a midterm election coming up, with looking for consensus amongst their constituencies. All of the cookie cutter, sensible obligations to doing politics as politics is done, has led us to a time on earth where even the distribution of cars to people who don't have them would destroy our ozone. It's led us to a time where the public square is so public you can't hear anybody scream, where we are going back in time with major Supreme Court decisions in terms of a woman's right over her own body. There was a Bruce Springsteen song he introduced it saying, America, we've gone a long way and we're going back. Well, I don't see going back as a productive thing. And with all the incredible events and technology that could be our friend, we're turning most of them into

our enemies. And I think that one of the things we can point to in terms of accountability is our entire system of governance and the total naivete of those whom we hold accountable for what. those whom we hold accountable for what. And so we go to personality politics, yay for our guy, yay for our girl. The left is masturbatory in its interest in claiming itself socialist. The right is masturbatory and win at all costs. And in between are people like you and me and our children and their friends and the butcher down the block and the person bagging our market buys and our gas stations and building roads,

all of whom are rendered invisible to this current system. And I would also call into it the media, the media that's become a sort of schadenfreude jungle, all of which is exercising our weakest selves because none of it is taking responsibility for ourselves and for ourselves in the system. And did you see in Zelensky's posture that he wanted to reach past that culture and that system and get to people who he hopes identify

with the basic human need and the appetite for freedom? Yes, and what is the need? One of the most interesting moments, and that'll be shared in the documentary, you were there, when he talked about the new day in Ukraine, when he talked about a post-victory Ukraine that could not be the same as Ukraine before the war, where he in essence pledged not a new policy frame, but a commitment to a new one, that this was no longer the Ukraine

he ran for the presidency of, that while it might not be Israel, it should be understood and expected that there would be soldiers in the streets in a peacetime Ukraine, at least with a sunset. Why? Because a dangerous decision had to be made to repel the Russians. They had to arm their citizens. Very little training, very high caliber weapons throughout the streets of the major cities. Malicious, in essence, community malicious. There would have to be more cameras because Ukraine, not unlike the united states does have

great diversity of thought a lot of passionate positions on all on all ends of the political spectrum but those won't be reckoned with until this war is over because they fight as one and it's in that spirit of fight as one that they have the the front row opportunity to see what it works like when we are a we and not an I. That which we grew up believing was going to be our MO. E pluribus unum. Now it's something that too many people can't read on a coin, but they are living it. And he's ready to be a president of that new Ukraine. That's what I believe in him. Well, you saw it today. I don't know how close you're following, but we just saw Zelensky under some of these clouds of suspicion about, well, where'd our money go? And

is this place still corrupt? And is he just an extension of that? He got rid of one of his head intel people and a lead prosecutor for the government because the people underneath them, he says, will be shown to have been treasonous towards Ukraine. So he got, and one of them is a good friend of his, an ally of his. What does that say to you about where Zelensky is coming from, that he removes two top of his own people in the middle of a crisis? Well, it goes earlier than that for

Ukraine. It goes before Zelensky, in fact. It really goes back to 2014, since which there have been extraordinary reforms on corruption in the country, very little advertising on it for the broader world. Why? Partly because of our caution in terms of considering them for NATO partnership. There's no sane person on the planet who's going to suddenly say, hey, there's no corruption in Ukraine. There is. There's a culture of corruption. It's there. We know it's there. We also have seen an enormous amount of anti-corruption activity and legislation passed since 2014. I think when we get some horns and bugles on that and you lead it up to what President Zelensky is going to bring to the party and the mandate he will have following this war

with all knocking on wood now, all things going well, should the United States and others ultimately deliver on the package. We talked about HIMARS. When we were there, there was a lot of international word about the HIMARS that were sent by the United States. There were four in the entire country. That's not what this country thinks we're doing when we should be sending 40. With 40 HIMARS, you and I would be in a very different discussion today. With the HIMARS alone, notwithstanding, they have 16 jets, the ground-to-air defense, the sonar. It's an expensive package, but it's an expensive package

a lot cheaper than the one we're going to send over time to a much more devastated area. I honestly have less opinion than I have bafflement on what this administration is doing in Ukraine, this Biden administration. delivery plan of those resources before the midterms would show the American people, not who we are as Democrats, but who we are as Americans. And the Democratic Party would have an opportunity to show that it is just as tough as the other party, only smarter. And that goes to the things they call socialism as well, which when you break it down into words like, hey, do you have to take your credit card out when you call 911 because your grandmother's got a second story man breaking in?

No. Well, that's socialism. How do you feel about it today? We're just too quick to use these words and not how it breaks down and how it meets our lives and all the ways that those kind of comforts can actually inspire us to pick ourselves by our own boots. And nobody's asking for a huge American invasion, certainly nobody being taken seriously. But it does make you wonder the situation that that party is in heading into the midterms with really a panoply of intractable problems. It's not going to really make a difference with inflation between now and then.

Probably won't make a real difference with gas prices between now and then. The trip to Saudi and the requests and the hand-fist bump with MBS, all of that is playing neutral to negative for them. And here you have staring in the face an existential exercise in democracy and a complete envelope of everything you're supposed to be about. And you're playing dollars and cents with it. Biden's doing doublespeak with it. His people are quiet about it. And the media hasn't been aggressive covering it because the American appetite for hearing about it is gone. It does seem like an opportunity is being missed, not to simplify and

not to cheapen the need. But it does seem that this would check a lot of boxes for leadership in America about showing what it stands for, showing what matters, showing who we are at our best. There's no question about it. And it has a direct tie in to the world's use of fossil fuel. This is a moment for a maverick leader to stand up and show how little babies get murdered over the use of fossil fuels and how we can all, rather than let Putin execute a war of attrition, we can all be enlisted. It can be made sexy into a war of attrition against these existential polluters. We can do it in stages, but now dynamic stages. I think that if I were making another documentary today, it would focus on Germany, Germany and its play in the dynamics of what is happening in Ukraine, Germany and its play in letting Germany know that we're serious about this fossil fuel issue that you're so concerned about. And that's why we shake the hands of murderers in Saudi Arabia. All of this stuff could be done once better. There's an opportunity for a world leader today that

there's never been before. And it is the existential threat of climate. And as long as the Ukrainians who are fighting on behalf of the freedom to live within that climate are forced to continue this long war is going to be the degree to which our eye is off the ball as a world, as a world unified against this climate threat. You know, that was one of the things that I brought home from Ukraine was that, you know, here we are so desperate for a cause, so desperate for an understanding of what's right and wrong, that we're creating all of these confrontations and situations and exaggerating reality. And there is a reality that can't be exaggerated, that is all about inculcating the values that

we say we're fighting for here. And it's all but being ignored. And that's why I'm so proud of you for taking the time and the risk to do the documentary. Now, one thing that I, sorry to interrupt, one thing I need to get out there is that while I was, as you put it, taking the time and the risk, I made a point of doing it from the front facing backseat of the four by four we were in. And I think your audience should know that all six, 500 of you were in the bed of the truck for about eight hours over mortar pitted road with only the view out the back window, bouncing and bouncing and bouncing. And my partner, Aaron Kaufman, and I, we had in that tragic zone, we had a lot of laughs on your behalf, looking and watching your body bounce.

And you sleep through about half of it. So we know that you care, too. First of all, I don't like that you laugh through that type of abuse of someone you say you care about. And I wasn't sleeping. I was unconscious because that's what happens when you inhale gas fumes for five hours and knock your head against walls with a man who's asleep next to you holding a loaded weapon. Look, the adventure, and you said it very well. I've never thought of it this way before, not how you threw me in the back like luggage, but that levity, me in the back like luggage but that levity humanity fraternity um you know the bonds that people have in bad situations are often reinforcing uh of that reflex to danger and you tell a joke so that you can remember it's not all like this all the time and yet here we are. This documentary is going to come out. And that war could be almost lost when this film comes out.

What does that mean to you? I'm adopting Ukrainian mindset. There's no losing. But what you know, what what our friend Alex, who runs the railroads there in Ukraine, told us is that, you know, he had gone past the fight that was just there to win. He said, we're fighting the fight because we know we're fighting for the right thing. All the more reason we need to get behind them. I keep hoping for a surprise that the United States will notice, really notice what's being fought there and who's fighting it. notice what's being fought there and who's fighting it. Man, it's you and me. It's our neighbors. It's people like we know. And they are, you met them with me, the veterans, they were a machinist. They hadn't held a rifle in their whole life. They went to popular music shows. They went to museums. Many traveled the world. This is every bit as much a European country as Paris, France is a European city. And they are those that hold the values we hold. is that if they prevail that that experience of being with a winning team will no longer be as dependent on that color of skin for those who we support because we realize it's the same friggin beating heart and there are so many of the same struggles going on just as viciously in so

many parts of the world but i look look at Ukraine as a Trojan horse to get us out of our normalization and then once secured into broadening what is normal to us. The other question is, what happens if Russia wins? I think that's almost the stronger, the easier way for people to conceive of what's at

stake here. You look what happens when a singer speaks out in Russia, or God forbid, an opposition leader. This is the nightmare of existence that we want to keep away from our world and away from our kids. And this isn't the old kind of, oh, if the commies spread through Vietnam, they're going to spread to us. This is a very real and present interconnected world today. And it is not a question of whether Russian authoritarianism will spread. It is when, if it is not defeated at the door of Ukraine. One of the purposes of this film is to invigorate the American audience. I hope it has some type of

similar impact on the Russian audience, because this isn't North Korea. This isn't closed off portions of China. They have the internet and they can see what's happening in that country. And America, as an article of convenience, always just talks about Putin and that it's about him, him, him and the people that they are all under his thumb of oppression. I don't know that Ukraine isn't teaching us a lesson that there's more buy in in Russia than we knew. Ukraine is going to teach us a lot of lessons if we keep paying attention. What do you want people to know about CORE and what you're doing over there and what the experience is teaching about the need? Well, most of CORE's deployment is in Poland, Romania, and in Ukraine itself. Our teams are principally Ukrainians working for their own country. Those we've trained and those we've hired out of a resume of their own training.

Doing a lot of work with refugees outside of the country, a lot of work with IDPs within the country, working with local governance, working on shelter solutions. You know, Poland, for one, has opened its big wide heart to so many refugees, more than any country on the planet, when it comes to the Ukrainian crisis, the invasion, criminal invasion of Ukraine, pushing so many out. of cash assistance and and you know partner organizations uh doing the kind of stuff that we've done in in other areas where we try to get a kind of you know uh umbrella over the immediate needs while working into development and into you know trainings and psychosocials is a big part of it with especially to begin with with mothers and, so many of whom had to flee the country to get their kids into safety. And yet they're dealing with new schools or no schools. And you know that the mandate for Ukrainian schools is to open up back September 1st.

There's going to be some logistics challenges there because a lot of the school facilities have been used for shelter up to this point. Sikora's in the game and scrambling and trying to raise money to do more than it's already doing now and will do its best with what it has. The other thing that's been very interesting about this invasion by Russia on Ukraine is that I have been called, people who know me and know I have an organization and that we work in Ukraine, typically the humanitarian world gets contacted by humanitarians. In this case, the first time ever, 50% of the calls that I feel relate to arms. People who have been burning incense and sitting at home cross-legged to some Beatles records and singing Peace, Love, and Happiness are wanting to help to buy arms because they recognize in this case that that will be the preservation of love and freedom and happiness for many Ukrainians in this

criminal war of Russia's. So I think that people should rally around. This is a really, really great time in our present history for people to spend a little bit of time, not a lot of time, it doesn't take a long time. But cross-referencing news outlets and seeing what's actually going on around this dynamic in Ukraine, it doesn't take a lot to help a lot. And there are so many ways that people can help. They can help through CORE. I can assure that directly. But they can also help with organizations who are buying biractors, the drones that have been so successful for the Ukrainians. These are things that would crowdsource or available to be purchased privately. They are a real contribution to the war effort.

You're going to go back? Yeah. This time, I'm sitting on a seat. Do you understand? I'll be with you. I believe in the cause. I'll go, I'll pay. But this time I'm sitting on a seat. Do you understand? I'll bring a little pillow. Thank you. That's all I need. Sean Penn, I respect you. I care about you. And I'm very proud that I got to see the work you're doing firsthand and the documentary you're making. And I hope it makes a difference because America needs it to make a difference. Appreciate you, brother. And thank you. Thanks, Chris.

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He is now his trustee deputy. And he was able to give us some time right in a moment of crisis when there are things happening right now on the ground to give us a present-sense impression of what's happening, what they need, and what will be lost here in America if they lose in Ukraine. Mr. Yermak, good to see you again. Good to see you too, Chris. Thank you. Thank you very much.

I'm happy to be with you today and to make this dialogue and to explain the current situation in the front and in Ukraine and discuss some very important for our country issues. I know that time is short because the situation is very dangerous and changing very quickly. What do you want people to know about the state of the war in your country right now? First of all, I'd like to say that our country, Ukraine, our brave nation and absolutely heroic nations continue fighting these five months. We show to all the world that we are fighting not just for Ukrainian territories, for our sovereignty and territorial integrity, but

for all freedom world and for all democracy world. I think that we show in the 21st century that it's possible to not be afraid, to be strong and to really continue this fighting, this war for the freedom, for our independence. And and of course we are sure that we will win of course we need the help of uh continue the age of our partners our friends we are really grateful uh first of all uh for united states for american people uh for other other others partners for this great support for this great help but we need more we need more weapons we need more sanctions because because this terrible war is continuing. And I'm absolutely sure that you and the people in the world know the names of our cities. And the last tragedy in Vinnytsia, when Russians continued to destroy and continue bombing civilians infrastructure

killed our people killed our children unfortunately it's continue but we united we are strong our people working our heroes fighting in the frontline, our people working in all the territory in Ukraine, our economy in difficult situation it's working, our infrastructure is working. And all of us believe and are sure about our victory. And I'm sure that it will be our mutual victory. And it's very, very important that we receive all these necessary things in time. It's necessary to stop this war, to stop Russian aggressors before winter because after the winter it will be more difficult to deal with and more expensive to territories and of course very important that once again i want to emphasize that billions in support of ukraine are not money taken from the ordinary americans that's money that will allow average Americans to continue living in their normal life

and maybe get a little richer over the time. Because now the surviving Ukraine is a large market for American goods. And now I think that all this aids, it's a contribution for the future security of all the world. What do you say to Americans who believe we've done enough? 70 billion or whatever the current number is, that's plenty of help. We gave what was needed and there's no more for America to do. What do you say to them? It will not stop Russia, and we show to all the world that we are able to do it, we are sure how it's possible, how it's possible to fight and to win. But this war is continuing. And believe me, I think that if Ukraine will not stop, in some very short period of time, Russia will go forward. It will be in other countries, it will be members of the NATO, and happen following things.

If now Ukrainians fight and only ask about help, help by the weapons, by the necessary equipment, by the financial support, support but if we will not stop it will be necessary to United States physically participated in the absolutely possible new world war it will be necessary once again descended American soldiers to the Europe to fight for the lithuania for the poland for the other countries i think that uh and i absolutely sure that our presidents will uh done a great great job than he make his speech in the congress in different platforms and some members of our team in which we described all these things and i absolutely i think it's now we have the historical moment that uh the ordinary americans so deeply understand what happened in Ukraine and so deeply support our country I don't remember that it's happened before and Americans and I know that Unfortunately, I'm here in the office of the president from the 5 am of 24th of February, and not president, not me, not some other members of our team, not able to travel,

but I know how many our flags, how many Ukrainian symbols in the streets of the United States cities? And I'm absolutely sure that in this week our First Lady visits the United States, to Washington. They will have speech in Congress. She will have the meeting with the First Lady of America and the State Secretary and many others. I'm sure that it will be a historical visit, and I'm sure that through the voice of a very strong, very smart woman, the first lady of Ukraine, mothers, the Americans once again and received very strong signal from all mothers ofism, of new people who is absolutely destroying all world structure of the security, all structure of the humanism and the international law. When we were on the ground in Ukraine, the soldiers and people in the government

kept saying, you don't understand what the Russians are doing in the region of Kiev. There are over a thousand bodies that have been found, many of them in temporary graves, that this isn't just killing, that people are being castrated, people are being raped, people are being tortured. Is that true? Yes, unfortunately, it's true. It's absolutely shocked and terrible pictures, which I personally saw in this small city around the Kiev. And now a lot of the international leaders visited in this place. And we especially make this some exhibition which called Russian war crimes, which now traveling now it be in Berlin. And I hope that in September, it will be possible to travel to United States.

I think that Americans have to see exactly photo and video evidence and confirmation about these crimes. One last thing. Yeah. Time is of the essence. You have to go right now because there is literally a war that is going on that you have to help control.

What do you want the American audience to know about the essence of time and that the help has to come now or it will be too late? You know that we need to receive everything in time because if it's not happened, more people will die. More people, more children will die. Our obligations, it's not just to win this war, but survive our people and survive our cities and our country, our infrastructure.

I'd like to, I can answer to your question in the following way. This war is a problem of the world. The sooner it ends, the less the world will suffer from the rising prices. For example, we have done our best to not give the Russians to provoke the food crisis. You know, it's the life of the millions of the people in Africa, in Asia, in many other countries. And it's mean that we need to stop to win this war as soon as possible. And we hope that the biggest our strategic partners, United States, our friends, really will help us to do this. And we can celebrate our victory together as

friends, as partners, for the long, long period of time. I know you believe you're fighting the good fight. I know that you have to live every day with knowing that Russian forces want to destroy your cities and kill you and President Zelensky personally. I wish you well. I hope you stay safe. And I look forward to talking with you and seeing you again soon.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. American veterans are on the ground in Ukraine doing what they do best, helping people in need. They're not there fighting the war. Some Americans have gone there to volunteer. But there is this network of veterans that are helping with all the humanitarian needs, the logistical needs, and also to try to help keep people alive on the battlefield. They don't have the sophistication that our military and our citizens take for granted. I want you to meet someone we're just going to call Tom because they're in country right now and we don't want to compromise their safety. But I love meeting him and his guys and bonding on the ground.

It was great to have them as a resource. And Tom is still there on the ground now making a difference. It's good to see you. Good to see you, sir. How are you holding up, brother? Good. Tired. Neil, you've been here. The air raid sirens just went off, so it's good to see you. Good to see you, sir. How are you holding up, brother? Good. Tired. You know, you've been here. The air raid sirens just went off, so it's good timing. So it's hard to get a good night's sleep here sometimes.

Now, we're calling you Tom. I know you as Doc. Why do you have to be careful about personal security? What is the situation like there on the ground? You know, the intel is kind of showing that the Russians' RF capability and their EW or the electronic warfare capabilities are pretty robust. So they're able to reach into phones and reach into social media. It's more for the safety of it. For me, anyway, it's more for the safety of my family back home because who knows what they're capable of.

They are definitely targeting people and individuals here who are helping, trying to stop the cause. But for me, it's mostly for our family back home, just to make sure they stay untouched from this as much as possible. You're in Ukraine, there's shelling going on, your Wi-Fi is in and out, and that's fine. People will get it. So let's talk about what they don't get, which is how ugly this war is, how intense it is and how deadly it is and what you now know about Russia. It's definitely a slugfest. This week, the reporting, I think you probably got it back home to this. This week, they stepped it up a notch or several notches. So along the southern corridor, Goliath, Herson, Jaberizia, Dnipro, all those just got basically got the snot bombed out of them or missiled out of them. It's a slugfest. It's an artillery war right now.

It is, you know, you've heard it before, but it's a balance between World War I trench warfare slash World War II artillery warfare. Just going back and forth. They're going into civilian populations, which is pretty frustrating for us. Do you believe what we were shown by Ukraine troops, that they're using cluster bombs, that they're using mines, that they're targeting civilians? Is that all true in your experience? 100%. We've seen the aftermath of it. We've seen the, you can tell the impact points of a cluster bomb. It's clearly different than other impacts. And they were all over, especially, I've been working mostly in for the last few months in the South. And the church that I kind of home base out of, there's at least eight cluster bomb hits outside of the church. So I've knocked out all the windows.

And this happened early on in the war, but it was definitely cluster bombs that hit it. People are going to see this interview and they'll be suspicious. Ah, the U.S. government does have its guys on the ground. I'm being very clear. You're a veteran. You're there on your own.

When I was with you, you went back home just for a few days to take care of some family business. You came right back. Why are you there and how are you there? Well, I'll start by saying if the U.S. government's involved and I'm the best they can send, then we are not as robust as we believe we are. I am definitely here on my own. I am a retired Air Force officer. And the best way I can come up with is we all remember how we felt on September 12th. You know, September 11th happened and then September 12th, we were probably the most united I've ever felt. And that stayed for a while, but it waned after a while and we kind of forget.

And we as a culture and country kind of turned the channel pretty quick. When Ukraine happened, I've been in Ukraine before, and I know some things about Ukraine, you know, like an official capacity. When that happened, it kind of hit me like a September 11th, that it was kind of a gut punch. But then seeing the world's reaction, how everyone came back together, made me feel more like September 12th again. And I had that drive and the calling to come over here and check on people that I know and see what we can do. And I think there's more that we could do and can do. And for me, I'm going to do as much as I can.

So I came over here on my own. I was blessed enough to be able to link up with some other like-minded vets that know each other from the Afghanistan operation, the withdrawal from there last year. And we were able to form some pretty good cohesive units to actually do some good things here. I was reporting a lot, as you know, about the efforts of veterans to get people out of Afghanistan and how the U.S. government wasn't stepping up. And you guys decided to just do it on your own. Now you have the American and to some extent, the government posture is, well, we've done plenty this time. We've given them $70 billion. We've given them all this military stuff. I mean, our commitment has been pretty good.

They should be fine. What's your response? We had this discussion, a little bit sidetracked, but I hate the term, we stand with Ukraine. I think that's a cowardly phrase, if you're not standing in Ukraine. So to stand with Ukraine, you have to stand in Ukraine. Ukraine is asking for anybody to stand with it, to stand shoulder to shoulder. You're standing with someone, you're shoulder to shoulder with them, and you're in the fight. We can stand behind Ukraine. We can say that.

We can pray for Ukraine. We can support Ukraine. But to stand up and say we stand with Ukraineraine you've been here unless you've seen it unless you're doing something to actually help the cause you're not standing with ukraine so my answer to uh have we done enough no we haven't i mean this is a again outside i'm not a politician i'm not political um i'm not even that diplomatic sometimes but this is the most unambiguous righteous fight of my lifetime um and i served 35 years so that was a long career and every engagement the us has been in the last 35 years every one of those in my heart was righteous what we were doing was the right thing but there was always somebody asking some kind of

an underlying question. It was for oil or it was colonialism or it was whatever. This one is the most unambiguous, righteous fight for a tyrant to step into a. He crossed all the red lines by attacking a democratic country, a peaceful country, just because he can, just because he wanted to, just because he thought he could run over it and back in the day again i'm a kind of a student of history but back in the day the united states stood for and we said that if you stand for democracy if you stand for freedom then we'll stand with you we'll fight with you and fight for you and i think we've kind of forgotten that we got away from it giving money giving bullets giving bullets, giving weapons. That's that's great. But I think that's the minimum for a country that's that's I hate to say is being sacrificed, but it feels like it's almost being sacrificed.

So when friends from home say, well, you know, I've heard some other things that, you know, Russia is telling their people that they're there fighting Nazis and that there's all this ugliness in Ukraine that they're trying to save people from. You have been all over that country. You've been meeting with all kinds of people in official and unofficial capacities, more than most journalists that I know. Do you see, have you heard anything to substantiate any of the suggestions that Russia is there for good reasons? I'm an adult. I've been around, like I said, and I'm a student of history. The 2014 fight, I don't know exactly what happened in the Crimea invasion and the Azov regiment. There were some issues about, hey, what are they doing? They're very fascist. And I described them as the monsters we needed, not the monsters we wanted at the time. And it's not a hit on them.

Those are guys that were doing it. And at that time, Ukraine needed someone to step up in that region and fight, and they did. And some of their tactics may not have been what we would call today's, you know, Western guidelines or within our line but uh no excuse for what's going on here right now no excuse for what is happening to odessa to make a lot of no excuse for the hospitals the the schools the apartment buildings that are being hit um because they may i don't know that i'm not taking russian force where they're saying they're targeting military structures but i i haven't seen any military structures yet. I've seen maybe a fuel depot hit, but that's in full months of being here.

I've seen one, two, what I would call legitimate strategic targets. The rest of the people are being told not to put Red Crosses on our vans because they'll target it. That kind of shows you the mindset of what the front line's like. So no, to answer the question, there's no legitimacy in what they're saying. And it's obviously propaganda-based, but it's old Soviet-esque Cold War stuff. If Ukraine doesn't get a ton more military help

from the U.S. and others, how long do you think they can keep up this fight? Well, I'm nowhere near an expert or a person to ask that. But from what I've seen here, I think we can last the rest of the year for the most part. I think the Russians are taking a moment of pause right now and maybe after this to regroup, reset. But it's a war of attrition for them. And the numbers are, you know, I hate to say this and not a naysayer, but it's so much in their favor. But I hope that Ukraine can last out the rest of the year. It depends on the amount of support and the amount of waning support. You know, at some point, I think the West's personal opinion is going to kind of step back a little bit

and do what we've done in the past and turn the channel. And that's sad for here, for being here. This is, like I said, a different fight. This is the most righteous, unambiguous fight, bad against evil, against good, clearly defined and clearly seen on the ground, clearly seen in the tactics. I think we should be doing more.

The idea that it's not our fight. Love that you're there. You're an American. Respect it. Your choice. But we're not going to go head to head with Russia over a place that used to be its and that has complicated politics. And a lot of people in there are Russia.

It's not our fight. I think if we step back and look at it again, I said he's crossed all the red lines again, not being a student of history, but not being a politician or being an expert in it. I believe he respects power and authority. And even if it's against him, he respects power. So someone to step up and stand up and say, no, this is a line you won't cross, and then hold them to that. I think he'll respect that. He hasn't gotten that yet. I think 2014 gave him a little bit of a taste, and no one really stepped up to stop him. Again, not political, but our debacle that happened in Afghanistan on that withdrawal showed him that we were not willing to keep up a fight anymore. We were tired of

fighting. And I got it. It was a long, hard fight. I've been there several, in Afghanistan several times too. But that just showed our position that we're not willing to do this anymore. We were willing to accept that mess that we did to get out of there. And I think that should embolden him. And for someone to threaten nuclear war that he's done, for someone to threaten chemical warfare that he's done, for someone to do the tactics that he's used has impacted the world's economy and the world's food source. I don't know how many other red lines you have to cross before the world steps in or the West steps in and says, hey, this is enough. One of the things that you told me that really was frightening to me is you said, you know, they don't train here the way we train and they don't triage in the field that much. They just try to rush people to the hospital and they have people bleeding out and injuries that people are succumbing to. What did you see, and what is the need? So they don't have the concept of the golden hour. They know, they've heard that term, the golden hour,

for that first hour after injury. They don't have the capability of a Kazevak or a Medevac from the front line. They don't, they haven't. Again, this is just my view of it. What is a weakness for Ukraine can also be a strength because Russia has some of the same issues, interoperability. The units don't really work well together. They're getting there.

In the last eight years, Ukraine has leaps and bounds, developed their capabilities, but they weren't quite there yet. We were helping them through different military programs. But on the front line, if someone gets hurt, there is no system really to get them out. They basically have to wait until the fight stops for someone to run up and get them and then pull them back. And it's not a medic. It's usually just another soldier that throws them in the back of a car that's been commandeered months ago, drives them to an aid station where they get their first level of care, and that's usually more than an hour later.

And then it's, at best, a 10-hour ride to a field hospital, an actual doctor, or a qualified ER staff or trauma center. And by that time, you know, a combat injury, gunshots, shrapnel, things like that, that's too late. So they haven't developed that system yet. And we're trying to help them with different types of training, medical training, trying to get them more equipment, trying to get them vehicles that are soldiers out of there

or wounded out of there, and honestly, wounded civilians out of there. How can people help you help Ukrainians? So I've been here on my own. I've found some uh quality quality organizations that are here so i i kind of call myself a free agent but i i help these programs that i found that i think are just phenomenal um those are some are christian based some are veteran based and they're operating on their own funds i've've come here on my own dime and I've kind of spent a small little fortune on my family. And I have to apologize to them because I know that they weren't expecting that much to go out.

But we're rebuilding it back up. But they can help. Money makes money talks here. It's I hate to say it like that, but it costs money to buy equipment, to buy to get these guys the training to get these guys um just personal protective gear uh they all want vests and helmets every time i don't know if you noticed that when you went through the line if you ask them what they want they want vests and when they mean vesting in the ballistics and when you're looking at them um god bless some of the other creative ukrainians because they're some ingenious people they're just you know going to town on 3d printers and fabricators which are not optimal but it's something that they're wearing that makes them feel better and may or may not provide them better protection but they need those things and it costs money and you know where that money comes

from you know i know we've given them a lot of money on the international stage how that gets distributed that's so outside of my chain of command or my Level but it's not getting down to the end user especially the guys that I know of in the south Right, even the soldiers even the actual Ukrainian army soldiers not territorial guard or not police What did you feel as an American? You and I talked about this a lot on the ground there, that they seem to be living what we talk about in this country. And I'm not saying that we're not living it ourselves. We're just not in an existential battle for our lives.

We're making our own fights here at home among ourselves. But the idea of give me liberty or give me death, that over my dead body will you take my freedom, I was really struck there by how they're saying it and they are living it. Did you feel that? They're doing it. Absolutely. It's a Revolutionary War era mindset as far as from the U.S. perspective.

They are all the catchphrases that we learned through our revolution. Give me liberty, give me death, hold dead hands, things like that. They're living it. And a lot of that they've taken from our persona, from our history. They really look up to the United States. And that's why when I say that, going back to september 12th feeling they they've embraced their liberty they've embraced their independence from soviet russia um years ago they do not the the older officers senior officers know that they for the most part the ones i've met don't want to go back to that so they've embraced the the liberty give me liberty

give me death philosophy and they're living it and that's amazing to see it's amazing to come here and say and sounds maybe not tactful to say but feel more here than you sometimes in the U.S. there's so much infighting for us politically and emotionally and everything else back home. When you come here, it's clearly defined war, clearly defined evil, and they're living their life of liberty or death. Yeah. In one way, they are more American than we are right now. And again, I'm not knocking us. It's just about what I'm surprised people here don't see in them. What are some of the groups that you've seen on the ground there that you think people should support? E3RanchFoundation.com is the one that I

predominantly support. They're a Christian-based organization. Adam LaRoche is a former major league baseball player, founded. We've worked together on anti-trafficking issues before, on the Afghanistan withdrawal. Phenomenal group, just amazing people, huge hearts, pure Americans. And they've allowed me to stay here as long as I have because some of the projects that I've been running that I wanted to do, take some funding and they were able to back a lot of that funding. And it's all humanitarian based, getting people out, getting people safe areas, getting medicine in, getting food in, things like that. That's one. Another organization that I initially came here with was the European paratroopers.org.

They are basically just a group of mostly Italian, German and Polish paratroopers. I'm the only American that was part of it at the time. It was just a jump club and old fat guys to get together and jump out of airplanes and tell lies about old times. But they happened to be in Lviv when the war started, meaning the headquarters was, and they mobilized right away. They were the first group I was with for the first month, and they were doing humanitarian aid drop. Have you been seeing more American vets show up around there and show interest in helping? I haven't seen more, but I've seen many that came here from the beginning and are still here. And some are coming back from their first trip. They went home for a little bit. I'm coming up on the visa requirements. So I either have to get an extension or work something out with that. And

some of them went home because of that too. But I haven't seen more, but I've seen many and sadly when I first was here the foreign the foreign legion that was requested it didn't go well a lot of the guys that I met that were part of the legion or coming into the legion weren't the type of people I think they were looking for but many were I'd say well how many maybe one in ten but that one in ten that was the the right person has stayed here. And now those guys have all formed together into basically one unit, a solitary unit of Americans. And there's a similar group of UK soldiers and they work together because we speak the same language. So, and I'll tell you what, those guys are doing the Lord's work and they're taking it

to town there. are the uh the best i've seen out here and uh that's another group that supports them is a dark horse darkhorse benefits.com um they're supporting the veterans that are here so those are groups that i've affiliated with just because they're doing the right thing and uh i see good things happening all the time so it's it's different different. One group is straight and humanitarian, no military. Another group is veteran organized or veteran funded. I'm sorry, veteran focused and supporting the U.S. vets that are here. So depending on what the need is, that's the organization I'll work with. And to the people at home, what do you want them to know about what they're not hearing from Ukraine and what they're not getting about what's happening? I think they're not getting the size and the impact of what Ukraine's facing.

We talk about it. You know, the U.S., we're always rooting for the underdog, the smaller guy. rooting for the underdog, the smaller guy. I don't think they realize how much smaller Ukraine is, maybe not as much geographically, but militarily and financially, economically, and Russia. And the fact that they are holding their line against Russia right now, with all that against them, and they're screaming for help. And there's a reason they're screaming for their help is because they are so much smaller than their enemy, than the evil that they're facing right now. And in a war of attrition, if it's straight attrition, I hate to even say these words, but Russia is going to win just because the numbers are on their side. 40 million versus 140 million. I mean, you know, that tells you what you need to know right there.

tells you what you need to know right there. I also think that there is a little bit of skin in the game for America that we're not owning enough, which is what you were talking about earlier. And I've heard from many people, the idea that Russia isn't doing this, at least in part to send a message to America and to the West, whether that's in the body of NATO or us directly as the United States. They're not there just because of Ukraine. And there's really no reason to believe from the people on the ground there that they have any intention of stopping with Ukraine. Correct. Again, back to that statement of kind of being a student of history.

Putin's never hid the fact of what he wants to do. He was, we just didn't really listen or didn't believe him. He's never, he's lied. Yes, you know, he's been subversive and things like that. But he's always made it clear that his intent was the old Soviet Russia, the old Soviet Union. He missed that. And I think he felt bloodied when it went away, and his goal, I shouldn't say his goal,

but I think what he is emphasizing whenever he taught this, he wanted to put as much of that back together again, and the West was always the enemy and has always been the enemy, and the West caused the demise of what he loved before as the Soviet Union. So it was no secret of what he wanted to do. we just really weren't listening or didn't listen enough and didn't believe it and he's again crossed all these red lines that we've just moved the line back you know we're just all right there you go here's another one there you cross it and he hasn't stopped crossing it and until we actually step up and hold one of those lines he's going to keep going.

That's what I believe here. And that's what I see. How long will the wife let you stay in Ukraine? Yeah, we'll see. I won't even answer that. I'm not even going to mention that right now. My mom thinks I'm a missionary. So in some regards, I kind of am.

So it's not lying to mom. But for the first two months, she thought I'm a missionary. So in some regards, I kind of am. So it's not lying to mom. But for the first two months, she thought I was in Texas. So I got to tell you, I think that you are demonstrating, Doc, what I used to call an American. You are representing the best of us there in a bad place, no matter what your training is, doing good things. And you are a free agent. You've got an open mind and an open heart and you make your own choices and you're doing the right thing. I

loved bonding with you there. I'm always a call away. I'll support your groups. You know that. And I'm going to talk to you here whenever you want, whenever you or any of the guys have something that they need people to know about the need, about the danger, about the reality, you've got a friend in me. I know you will, and I love you for it. So I appreciate it. Like I said, this is uncomfortable for me to even be in this kind of a forum, but I really appreciated you being here. I appreciated your perspective. Same way it goes back. You didn't have to be here. You didn't have to go to the front. You didn't have to go, you know, see what was actually happening. That was a big step for us. That was a big deal. I appreciate it. I love you for it.

Doc, you're a good man. And I knew that you were going to come get me if anything bad happened. We might be running. I tell you, if you hear any screaming like little baby girl, it's probably me anywhere in this country. Just come get me. It's you comforting me if that's the sound. I want to come back. I will stay in touch. I don't want people to forget about this. I think it matters enough on its own, but I think it matters even more to America and her interests and her future than we seem to realize right now. So stay safe, brother. I care about you. I'll be in touch.

Thank you for doing this. Yeah, thanks, sir. Now you have the inside information and insight into the ongoing war in Ukraine. You want to help the helpers? You can go to coreresponse.org. You can go to europeanparatroopers.org, e3givesback.org, or darkhorsebenefits.com. You check them out. You make the decision for yourself, okay? I'm going to

keep covering the situation for you, and I hope to get back there soon. Now, the goal of all of this is to help you as a free agent. So let me know what you think. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. And if you have a question, you can call me 516-412-6307. We'll put the number on the screen for you. All right, give me a call. Either I'll call you back. Maybe I'll address it on the show. Episodes are going to be dropping every week, and we'll be taking a deeper look at what life is bringing our way together. I don't want you to miss a single episode, so you can subscribe to the show right now. It costs you nothing, and it's easy, okay? If you want the audio version, you just search for The Chris Cuomo Project on any podcast app. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, you know them.

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