The Chris Cuomo Project - General David H. Petraeus

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

General David H. Petraeus (U.S. Army, Ret., Former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency) joins Chris Cuomo to discuss Israel's military strategy against Hamas. They analyze how the Global War on Terror after 9/11 compares to Israel's current campaign, the challenges of urban warfare in Gaza, winning hearts and minds of Palestinians, and the possibilities for escalation in the region. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

who really knows if Israel's current strategy is the best one? I've got him on the show today. Chris Cuomo here. Thank you for being part of the Chris Cuomo Project, subscribing, following, checking us out with our free agent gear for independent thinkers. So to the extent that we can analogize

what's happening in Israel to what we've seen before, now you can certainly do that in terms of the Middle East conflict, but if you want to do it to the recent American experience after 9-11, what did we learn from what worked and didn't in the war on terror, which is what fighting Hamas is really about, an idea that manifests itself over an aggrieved population, not just one group of individuals, General David Petraeus. Retired, of course, but he was in charge of the surge that made the difference in Iraq. And he wasn't dropping bombs

as much as he was dropping truth bombs. And he came up with a different strategy, specifically as counter terror, which went not to destroying the man, but destroying bad idea with a better one. So I asked him to come on the project to talk about how it worked there and what he's seeing in Israel. This isn't about the simple binary choice of Israel good, Gaza bad. There's nuance, there are tactics, and time. Here's General David Petraeus. This stuff is good. I like it. And if you're a meal prepper, okay. But if you're a meal prepper wannabe and on the go,

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Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. General, thank you for joining us. Do you believe that a bombing campaign by Israel alone will get rid of Hamas? No, and I don't think the Israelis are under any illusions about that either. What they've been doing is carrying out what the military calls shaping operations, setting the conditions so that when they do introduce their soldiers into this very fiendishly difficult context, really the most difficult conditions I can think of, arguably since the end of World War II, that those soldiers, the conditions will be set to the greatest extent possible so that the Hamas headquarters, key leaders, logistical sites, tunnels, their major weapons platforms, and so forth, all will have been destroyed or at least

degraded. And this is standard. Remember that we pounded the Iraqi military for 39 days from the air before launching what turned out to be a 100-hour war to defeat the Iraqi forces and liberate Kuwait back in the first Gulf War. We undertook similar operations, not as much air power in many of the cities that we liberated in Iraq from al-Qaeda during the surge, but we never faced an enemy anywhere near as numerous or as determined as I think this one will be. Keep in mind that this enemy knows Gaza City like the back of their hand. They have been presumably preparing to defend it for months, if not years. They've built hundreds of miles of tunnels underground. They don't wear uniforms. that built hundreds of miles of tunnels underground. They don't wear uniforms. They use civilians and hostages,

as we have seen tragically and terribly, as human shields. They'll use improvised explosive devices, booby traps, and most pernicious of all, some of them will likely prove to be willing to blow themselves up or blow up car bombs with themselves in it

to take Israelis with them. So again, I can't think of a more difficult set of factors for any military force really since the end of World War II. Mosul, clearance of the Islamic State, Mariupol, as you know, in southern Ukraine, very tough urban operations. But I think this will prove to be even more challenging given the sheer number of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters. We're talking probably tens of thousands of them and the fact that they have to be captured or killed in this

case in order to fulfill that mission that's been assigned to the military of destroying Hamas and then also dismantling the political wing. Would you be doing anything differently than is being done right now? Well, I've publicly suggested that I think it would be helpful for Israel to lay out a vision for the future of the Palestinians in Gaza. I know that they're trying to work out who it is and what will administer Gaza in the wake of the destruction of Hamas and its political wing. I'm not sure that they're going to find someone whose hand goes up who can be competent and capable and will give them the confidence that they could hand off to that entity, keeping in mind that whatever it is,

whoever it is that administers Gaza in the wake of this conflict of the war, when Hamas is determined to have been destroyed, they'll not just be handing out humanitarian assistance and restoring basic services and overseeing reconstruction of the enormous damage and destruction. They'll also have to carry out a counterinsurgency or counterterrorist campaign to ensure that the remnants of Hamas and Islamic Jihad that inevitably will be there cannot reconstitute in the way that the remnants of the Islamic State, after we defeated them during the surge in Iraq, kept them down for three and a half years, and then after we withdrew our combat forces,

Iraqi security forces took their eyes and pressure off them. And a couple of years later, there was a caliphate in northern Iraq and northeastern Syria. So again, the challenges of the post-conflict here are very substantial. And as you well recall, we didn't exactly get that right when we took Baghdad and toppled the Saddam Hussein regime. Our post-conflict phase four, as it was called, operations, the plans proved to be less than adequate. of resistance because of the bombing and all the civilian casualties and losing political support because of the optics of the lopsided nature of this. How relevant are those factors?

Those are relevant. Arts and minds do matter. Again, you really should think about this entire campaign as a counterinsurgency campaign, not just a conventional military campaign, because a counterinsurgency campaign reminds you of the crucial importance of not just offense and defense, but stability operations. That's essentially the nation-building piece, and you need the people with you. As you'll recall, Chris, when we set about the task of destroying al-Qaeda in Iraq during the surge, we laid out for the Sunni Arabs, Al-Qaeda, of course, being

a Sunni extremist organization, that life would be much better if they either helped us or at least stopped supporting Al-Qaeda in Iraq, given that the extremists had caused so much damage and destruction and loss of life in their own neighborhoods. And over time, they came to support us. We had a process of reconciliation, stripped them away from al-Qaeda, and that made our task much more straightforward. And ultimately, of course, we did improve life for the Sunni Arabs very, very considerably. So again, thinking about hearts and minds once the conflict is done is really important, and that means you

should think about them during the conflict as well. And these scenes are obviously grim. They're gruesome. I'm not going to second guess my old Israeli partners without knowing precisely what the targets were, what they were seeking to achieve, how vitally important they may have been. have been, but there's no question that these scenes are going to lead to an erosion of support around the world and a half-life of that sympathy that Israel was rightly experiencing in the wake of that absolutely horrific attack on 10-7. Keeping in mind that we lost not quite 3,000 Americans, international citizens, on the attacks of 9-11. The Israelis lost the equivalent in U.S. terms of over 50,000.

So 1,400 Israelis, population 9.3 million. The U.S. population, again, over 50,000. And the hostages are over 6,000 or 7,000, depending on the exact number, equivalent per capita in the U.S. But again, thinking this through, laying out what the vision is, and I think acknowledging that if necessary, the Israelis are going to take over the administration of post-conflict activities in Gaza until a competent, capable Palestinian entity or other international interim authority can be put in place. But that authority is not going again just to hand out humanitarian assistance. They have to keep a very close eye on Hamas and Islamic Jihad remnants to ensure that they can't reconstitute and you end up going through this all again. The Chris Cuomo Project is supported by Cozy Earth. Why? Because I like their sheets. That's

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Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70. I know it's taboo. It's embarrassing. But it shouldn't be. Thankfully, we now have HIMS. And it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment. And it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why?

Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments. And you do it right from your couch. HIMS provides access to clinically proven generic alternatives to Viagra or Cialis or whatever. And it's up to like 95% cheaper. And there are options as low as two bucks a dose. HIMS has hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers. So if ED is getting you down, it's time to pick it up. Start your free online visit today at HIMS.com slash CCP. H-I-M-S dot com slash CCP. And you will get personalized ED treatment options.

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What do you make of the reaction on the campuses of certain universities here in America? That it's exceedingly emotional. It's not quite the, if you will, the perhaps reasoned. Again, this is a very emotional topic, and I understand that very much. But one hopes that there can be at least discourse and communication with each other rather than what has become the very, very emotional outbursts that you see, frankly, on either sides on these campuses, some of which is very disturbing. Do you think if there had been social media in place back in 2001, we would have seen a different reaction at home to what America did after 9-11?

It's certainly possible, but it might have been even more in search of vengeance at that time. I think the desire for revenge was obviously very, very palpable then. And it's very possible that it may have led to even a greater sense of need for that. But clearly, the presence of social media has really changed the landscapes in which combat is carried on now. You see it in Ukraine. the landscapes in which combat is carried on now. You see it in Ukraine. There's never been as much transparency on a battlefield as there has been in Ukraine, given that everyone has a smartphone, internet access, and social media onto which they can upload videos and photos and so forth. And again, that can cut in a variety of different ways. And if people are inside

social media silos or go down so-called rabbit holes and so forth, echo chambers, then that can obviously magnify the emotions that one is feeling, again, from the different perspectives that are in play here. How long do you see this phase playing out in the region? And what do you think is most important for American leadership to do right now? Well, to answer the last one first, I think what we are doing, according to Secretary of State Blinken,

who has stated that he is going to sit with the Israelis, discuss how more humanitarian assistance can get into Southern Gaza in particular, how they can work on trying to get more of the hostages released, how to get more of the international citizens out of south Gaza as well, and also to discuss the imperative of Israel explaining their commitment to abide by the Geneva Convention, the laws of land warfare, explain what their process is in this regard.

They actually have a concept called purity of arms, which is their interpretation of the laws of land warfare, very similar to our application of them as well. And then to talk about the future, because I think these elements are missing right now. I understand, again, the focus on destroying Hamas. That's what needs to be done. But that's the military's task. And there are other bodies in the government that clearly can do a lot more thinking and explaining on this. And I know that there are at least two entities within the government that have been charged to examine the options and determine what might be possible.

But I think the sooner some of that is made public, the better, because it then conveys that there is a concern about the Palestinians in a very significant way in their life after Hamas. I'd also submit that it probably would be wise to do the same to provide a vision for the Palestinians in the West Bank as well. Again, this has been a horrific event, 10-7, absolutely unspeakable, barbaric actions taken by Hamas. discussions and negotiations and actions that could finally reach some kind of resolution on the aspirations of both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Last question, General. Why isn't there a shift of focus off of Israel and on to Palestinians to reject Hamas and

the Arab states who go out of their way to talk about brotherhood until it comes time to donate humanitarian aid to Gaza to create stability there and to help nurture that community? Why is so much of it on Israel and not their natural allies within and around Palestine? Well, I'm not sure the standards have ever been fair in that regard. There are inclinations by different groups around the world. We've seen it many, many times, tragically, in history before. And we're seeing some of that again. The ugly head of anti-Semitism clearly is present. It has been amplified and so forth. And so that's, I think,

what we are seeing. And to answer the question about the regionalization of this and just the duration of this also, Chris, it clearly depends. Israel has made rapid progress to this point in northern Gaza, encircling Gaza City. But now is when the tough work begins. Now is when Israeli soldiers are literally going to have to go building to building, clear every floor, room, cellar, tunnel, hundreds of miles of tunnel underneath Gaza City that were established, constructed by Hamas for just such purposes. that were established, constructed by Hamas for just such purposes. And again, a very, very tough enemy that knows the landscape in a way that Al-Qaeda in Iraq or the Islamic State in Mosul never really quite had.

And it will depend on how fierce their resistance is. It's going to depend on the sheer numbers that Israel can bring to bear. Keep in mind that you don't just clear a building and go on to the next one. You have to clear and hold. You have to leave forces behind to secure the building so that the enemy can't re-infiltrate, slip through somehow, or come up through a tunnel that hasn't been discovered. And all of a sudden, you're fighting in 360 degrees, or in fact, those forces get taken hostage themselves. So again, the challenges here now are really going to begin because it's now that you have to expose infantry soldiers to the enemy to draw their fire, noting that again, the enemy doesn't wear a uniform, they're not flying flags above their

positions, and all the rest of that. So this is going to be very, very challenging. And then you have to look at the other potential areas of escalation around the region. There's an important speech that would be made tomorrow by Hezbollah's Hassan Nasrallah. I don't think that he wants Hezbollah to get into a full-on fight with Israel, that he wants Hezbollah to get into a full-on fight with Israel, especially now that Israel's called up 360,000 reserves and increases defenses and readiness and so forth. But they did lob more rockets and so forth into Israel today. That is alarming. Israel has responded more forcefully. But when you recall the damage that was done by Israel in 2006 to Hezbollah and their infrastructure in southern Lebanon, you tend to think that they don't want to revisit that. In other words, an escalation could lead, you know, it essentially be an act of suicide on the part of Hezbollah, noting that, of course, they have sympathies for Hamas. Iran might be pushing them to get involved in a more substantial way.

But I don't think Iran can lead an organization like Hezbollah to commit suicide. And I hope, again, that that will not be the case in this situation. But clearly, there are Iranian-supported Shia militia in Iraq and Syria. They have already undertaken dozens of attacks against our bases. Our forces are there at the request of the Iraqi government to help them keep an eye on the Islamic State and also in northeastern Syria to ensure that the Islamic State cannot reconstitute itself there. You have the Houthis in Yemen, Iranian-supported, that have been launching surface-to-surface missiles that have been intercepted by Israeli ballistic missile defenses and also U.S. ship ballistic missile defenses. And you have Iran itself that could take action that limits the freedom of navigation in the Gulf and could actually have an effect on the global economy if it were to reduce the flow of crude oil and natural gas out of the Gulf. So all of these are possible

areas of escalation. And we haven't really talked yet about what's happening in the West Bank, where there's more unrest as well among Palestinians and violence between settlers and the Palestinians there, or what could possibly happen in Israel proper, which 20% of his population, of course, is Arab. So there's a lot of different worrying possibilities here, and the pressure will be very substantial for the Israeli army to get on with this into the city. I'm not one who believes in a ceasefire at this point, unless it is in the southern part of Gaza to enable the delivery of more humanitarian assistance and perhaps get more of the international citizens and most seriously

injured Palestinians into Egypt. But I think they will continue to press the fight. There's one other dimension here that we should not overlook, and that is in a country of 9.3 million people, when you call up 360,000 reserves, the impact on the economy is substantial as well. And so you get into this, there are multiple clocks ticking, and obviously there's an economic clock in Israel that's ticking. There's also the battlefield clock. This is not unlike the Baghdad and Washington clocks that I used to talk about during the surge, where the Washington clock often seemed to be racing ahead a little bit faster than it was our clock on the battlefields in Iraq. Do you think there's any chance, or do you think there's a good chance, that you get out

a majority of the hostages? It's very hard to tell um i know that the intelligence is working very hard to identify them presumably quite a few of them are in various tunnel systems uh getting them out and by the way that complicates the situation even more makes it even more fiendishly difficult for the is because they have technology that they can use in the tunnels in a variety of different ways that I won't get into. But if you're trying to rescue hostages down there at some point in time, you're going to have to go down there. And that may limit some of the possibilities that they could employ in those tunnel systems. So yet another one of the really complex issues with which they'll have to deal in the days,

weeks, and possibly months ahead. General Petraeus, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Good to be with you, Chris. Thank you. Strategy took time, took commitment, and it took weathering the storm of opposition. And that last one may be the biggest threat to peace. Thank you for watching The Chris Cuomo Project. Chris Cuomo here. Follow, subscribe. Appreciate you.

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