The Chris Cuomo Project - Harlan Coben

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

In this week’s episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, writer Harlan Coben (author, “I Will Find You,” and creator and executive producer, Netflix’s “The Stranger”) speaks with Chris about how it’s tougher for children to grow up today than when he was a kid, why he likes to write about the American dream, the reasons that politicians should read more fiction, the need to embrace being wrong and changing one’s mind, whether he prefers developing work for visual mediums like TV instead of books, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Visit Indeed.com/CCP to start hiring now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Harlan Coben, you know the name, and you know his books, and you know his magic, but how does he see the world? And how does that inform how he makes his magic and tells his stories? Is he like us? Is he not like us? I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. What a big name we have. Harlan Coben, 30 plus books, tens and tens of millions, TV, streaming. He's killing it. The 6'4 Power Forward. And to speak with him about how he sees the world and the dynamics in his own life is

such an amazing window into why he tells stories the way that he does and why we all love to consume what he makes. Thank you for subscribing and following and for wearing your independence as a free agent. I appreciate that. This is about respecting the deployed all over the world. Every time I see at any of the fishing expos I go to, anything that supports vets, try to help out. Why? Because they're helping us out. That's why. So thank you so much for being part of our

efforts here. And the gift to you is Harlan Coben. Listen, if you know anything about me, you know I've been doing AG1 for over five years, okay? Why? I heard about it just as I was looking at all of these white and translucent brown bottles in my life. Had to be a dozen of them, okay? Which vitamins I took with when, with food, in the morning, at night. And it was making it so that I didn't even want to deal with it anymore. Then I discovered AG1. One scoop, one glass of water. I like it warm.

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Check it out. Take control of your health. We don't fake the funk here. And here's the real talk. Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70. I know it's taboo. It's embarrassing, but it shouldn't be. Thankfully, we now have HIMS, and it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment, and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why? Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments.

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HIMS.com slash CCP. Prescriptions, you need an online consultation with a healthcare provider, and they will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. You see the website. You'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan.

Harlan Coben, what a gift to the audience you are for the Chris Cuomo Project podcast. Thank you for taking the opportunity. It's an honor to be here, Chris. Nice to see you. So you and the wife are still in the kid game. You're raising kids. They're in school. You're very connected. As a parent, where's your head in terms of the next set of worries? Well, my kids are sort of grown now. My youngest is a senior at Brown, but the worry never stops. I think kids get better as they get older. That's been the big surprise for me, that each age is actually slightly better than the one before.

You still worry as much, but I've liked each age, other than maybe girls 13 to 16. Pull that out. But I think the kids, they become more people, and the relationships actually grow stronger. It's been really wonderful watching them as adults now. But even where they are, none of them is completely two, three phone calls a year. We'll come see you when I can. I got to get the kids' schedule straight. You know how it is.

You know how it is. So you're still having to process their worries with them. Do you count yourself lucky that none of them are still in your house? Yeah, right now. Actually, they kind of move in and out. Like when they're between apartments, they take a room in one of our places somewhere. So it's sort of a revolving door. We never have more than one, perhaps two at the most.

But one thing, you know, you did turn during COVID is as great as happy as I was in a sense to have them home. There's a reason that they leave at a certain age and they're not happy there. Yeah, I tell my kids, my wife often gets on me for not pushing the kids' aspirations enough. But I would love, as long as, you know, I can get back up on my feet and keep getting paid, I'd love to have them home.

You know, so personal industry to me is almost a threat to my ability to have them home. You know, so personal industry to me is almost a threat to my ability to have them around the house, which I love so well. When you look at their world, what jumps out at you at how it is different than the one that we grew up in? I think it's tougher. I actually think I was born in 62 and I actually, you know, maybe every generation thinks this, maybe not, maybe it's the opposite. I think I grew born in 62, and I actually, you know, but maybe every generation thinks this. Maybe not. Maybe it's the opposite. I think I grew up in, like, the best time period. You know, the 70s were fantastic, and the 80s were past the Vietnam War, the longest peace in America.

Things seemed to be getting better for almost everybody. I'm not saying the world was perfect by any stretch, but better than it had been ever before. We didn't yet have the pressures of the Internet. I think that's been, you know, social media, all of that sort of things. You know, again, we were too young for NAMM, too old for Desert Storm. So I think, you know, you and I kind of, you know, early on in NAMM Atlanta grew up in that sweet spot for America. Also, when we got out, we kind of like, even though I didn't take one of them, we sort of had set positions, right? Like you had certain banks visiting your college and law school and medical school.

And people had direction and jobs waiting for them that they thought maybe, right or wrong, they were going to be able to have for life. And, you know, it's just, I think it's a much harder world for these kids right now, which is the first generation. I think that really says that. Do the kids have artistic pursuits, creative pursuits, or are they leaning towards their mom and being in the, be the ultimate helper aspect of give back? No, my wife's a pediatrician and now now she's right now also dean of admissions for Columbia University's medical school. So I'd say three are on her side, and one is kind of on my.

One's a terrific writer. Not only has she written several episodes of my TV series, but she just got her own show greenlit that she'll be show running and writing all six episodes of and filming in Liverpool, England, of all places. She turned 29 today. So that's my daughter, Charlotte. And I'm thrilled about that. Then I got one guy who's a NASA, just graduated Rice University.

He's a NASA flight control. I mean, he's like a rocket scientist. And another daughter who's a computational biology major. And when she tries to explain that to me, I'm like, whoa, whoa, slow down. This is dad. I don't get it. it i don't understand the word you're saying so we got you know a little bit of everything here how much more satisfaction do you get out of their success than your own a lot uh it sounds a little corny but when i'd gotten the call that my daughter charlotte's show had been greenlit i kind of ran upstairs to tell my wife and when I came in the room, she goes,

what's wrong, what's wrong? I'm like, what do you mean, what's wrong? She goes, you're crying, there's tears on your face. And I think all the parents out there are nodding. It's funny, I just was in an article today in a newspaper. I just finished book touring for, I will find you. And one of the people asked me about, you know, how the competition with your daughter.

I'm like, I hope she crushes me like a bug. I hope she crushes all the ratings I've had like a bug. And that's, it's just a great joy. I joke, I have a 17 year old. We have a 17 year old. Um, and he can't wait to be taller than I am. I was just a point guard. I wasn't a big shot like you. Um, but he's like, yeah, that's right. Any day now, any day now, old man. And I say, you know, you're making this horrible miscalculation that I am in competition with you. I said, nobody is ever going to be happier for you when you do me dirty in one-on-one, pool, ping pong, whatever it is.

You know, I may seem pissed off in the moment but nobody i win every time you win every time with the hand on the top of the head or whatever he does um they don't get that though and i don't think i ever got it either growing up like i never got any sense that my parents were that but maybe it was a different generation maybe one of the good things about us is that our kids have a better sense of how much we love them and how much they mean to us. It could be. I mean, I was ridiculously lucky. My father died young. Both my parents were gone by the time they were my age. And I direct people to the New York Times submission short story that Harlan did

called The Key to My Father about his father's death and processing it. It is so helpful. I suggest it to people on a regular basis. And it's worth reading. You know, God willing, your family is not the same kind of dynamic of loss, but read it. You think you know Coben. This is a different aperture into how he sees things and why. Very powerful. Continue. Well, thank you. That essay, you know, means a lot to me. So thank you for mentioning that. But my father was, you know, maybe I lionize him in death, but he was sort of perfect in that way. He was one of those fathers who knew how to push without pushing, who knew how to lead without necessarily, you know, he wanted greatness from us without making it seem like any kind of part of why he loved us so much.

It was, my brothers and I talk about this. It's almost like when I became a father, it was almost like I was trying to watch a magician to see how he did the trick, you know, and I was trying to copy how he did it. So I'm lucky in that way that I had a sort of miraculous father and I always knew he wanted me to beat him I always knew he was very self-deprecating in that way even mentioned you know he used to call himself he was terrible he wasn't a very good athlete he was encouraging me to be you know always said I was better than him in that way and in a very encouraging way so in that department I just got you know I just strangely lucky. Not that anybody out there didn't, but he pushed without, he just had a way about him. I don't know what it was.

What did it mean to you when you became older than your father was when he passed? Died at 59, right? Yeah, it was really, it was pretty tough. It was, first of all, I always thought, as many of us do, that my curse is that I will be dead around that age too. And I had met a famous cardiologist who, at a book event, that he sort of forced me to come down to his lab and check out my heart to make sure. And he told me I don't have my dad's heart, which was sort of a relief. And I was about 55, I would say that happened. But still, it's still weird. I still look back on, I can't have my dad's heart, which was sort of a relief. And I was about 55, I would say that happened.

But still, it's still weird. I still look back on it. I can't believe I'm, you know, because he seems so much older and more mature. You know, this is one of the human conditions, Chris. We always think we're always 17 waiting for our life to begin. I think about that a lot. I said that, you know, and I write about this a bunch. But we never really feel much older than that, do we?

You don't feel older, your actual age. And it's always like you're kind of at the step, but okay, now I'm ready to start my life. And so it was a real head screw when it first happened. Two things. First, just a quick follow on that. What would you do if you were going to do something else? What else would you want to do? Because look, knock on wood, you're healthy as a horse. You're not your father in that regard, thank God. And you could do whatever you want. What box would you want to check? You know, this sounds like a corny, but I don't really have another one I want to check. It's sounds like corny but i don't really have another

one i want to check it's like the different way some people have asked me that question is what would you be if you weren't a writer and i'm like i got no other marketable skills i've got not good at math i'm disorganized the only skill i have is i know how to make shit up so politics then yeah there's three things i was going to make a writer. Two are obvious and the third is not. Inspiration being obvious, perspiration doing the work, but the third, maybe most important, is desperation. I'm not fit to do anything else. Like, if I called a real job, I'd be a duvet cover. There's nothing I got. So that desperation, in fact, fuels me to write. It makes me, because otherwise, you know, from when I was starting out, I was like, dude, if you don't do this, you're going to have to like wake up and work at a Duane

Reid and not get out of your house at six in the morning. And that terrified me, that whole idea of having to hold down a real job. But now that you're not a paycheck from the street, what does it do to your why? A lot of people, their hobby is, let's say, painting or doing something creative. My job is doing something creative. And I'm not that interesting and fairly one-dimensional. I don't have a lot of hobbies. I think that's why I've been able to channel into producing so much work is that it's kind of all I have.

I have family and I have my work. I took up golf a few years ago, which as we all know through listings, I'm sure you have a lot of golfers. I should have just smashed a glass, picked up a jagged edge and jammed it into my eye. It would have been slightly less painful. But it's a joke that even when I'm out there playing, there's always a voice in my head that says, you should be writing. It's usually somebody I almost did with my R&D shot.

But that's how it kind of goes. Now, the other thing is, the day that you had when you met the cardiologist and they prevailed upon you to come in and get a workup and then happily announced to you you don't have your father's heart, I had that day today. Oh, wow.

How weird is that? Well, I didn't get that conclusion yet. My father died of a really weird heart disease, and he was not diagnosed until he was in his 70s. My pop was a very avid ball player. He was playing full court basketball in his 70s. And he then got diagnosed with this weird protein deposit in his heart thing that wound up, you know, starving all of his different systems of oxygenated blood, you know, supercharged his own dementia process.

And that was it. He was gone. So I went in today for that CT scan with contrast where they nonchalantly tell you, you may feel like you're urinating when we put in the contrast, but you probably aren't. Oh, well, that's good. That's good. So you're saying I have a chance. But anyway, I just did that today.

And it was very interesting for me, Harlan. I want your take on this. interesting for me, Harlan, I want your take on this, because I am like coming out of a traumatic period, right? With my brother going down and me going down for help with my brother and all that drama and all the externalities of it that don't matter to the public, but are completely an obsession for me, which is how it affected my kids and my wife and my sisters and all of these, all that. So I am in a place more than at any other wife and my sisters and all of these, all that. So I am in a place more than at any other time in my life that I can remember, because I've been doing dangerous shit for a long time.

You know, this job, whether it's Iraq or Pakistan or Afghanistan or whatever it is, where I did not care what the guy was going to tell me when I did the scan today or what my doctor who's a woman is going to tell me when they I don't really care and it's not that I want to die god forbid I'm not that dramatic or that selfish but it is interesting how life can change your perspective like that in ways that you would have never expected I would never expect that I wouldn't care whether or not I had my father's heart thing. I wanted to know. I was asking questions he didn't like when he was alive with his doctors.

I'd be like, so you're saying it's genetic, but not his type. And he was like, well, excuse me. Can I talk to my doctors for a second? But what do you think that does in terms of the shift of where your head and your heart are as you move through your own life and circumstances? What has surprised you the most? First of all, let me just say that's devastating, man. I mean, I get exactly what you mean. I can't imagine the loss of sleep, how that weighed on you, and how I'm just sending you all

kinds of positive vibes. And that's very moving what you just actually said as a writer you know it's those moments you're always trying to write about there's so many sliding doors in our life and you go one way or the other and a lot of times it's fate in some way or it's just accidental or it's the chaos theory which is more what i believe that just things kind of unravel and i just and part of what i read about is there's is always life is fragile man you learn it's the hard way that these protective bubbles that we kind of have are you know you sort of fight like i read bell up the american dream and the american dream is really the worldwide dream we sort of go out in suburbia and we get a picket fence and we have 2.4 kids and a two-guard garage and now life is perfect,

right? And it kind of is, but that's also really frail. And that's a bubble that oftentimes in fiction, it's my job to sort of shatter or play around with. In that quiet pool, that's where you can make big ripples when you drop a stone. Choppy waves, you won't see the stone disappear. And that kind of cool. So what you're saying is like a story to me. It's like it's a real narrative. And it's so honest and authentic as well, which has always been, I think, your strength anyway

as a broadcaster that you're willing to bring that kind of authenticity. But I'm just genuinely moved by what you said. I think that the kind of wake up is just that, hey, look, they're all going to talk about this anyway. They're all going to write about this anyway. They're almost invariably going to get it wrong. So it's not going to be,

I just got to be careful about my kids and obviously my wife and the rest of my family because they can't own my shit. And again, you know, my wife and the rest of my family because they can't own my shit. And again, I'm not my brother. I talk about guys who've made it through a hard time. It's one of the things that has made it completely doable for me is that I'm not dealing with anything the way he is. And that's good. But my decision has just been, well, I'm going to talk about it because you're going to talk around the edges of this anyway, and that doesn't help anybody. So I might as well use it.

And if it's meaningful to you that I have a therapist who's now more like a life coach for me after all these years, fine. Use it as a point of criticism. If me telling you that an antidepressant helped me when I couldn't figure out what I was going to do every day, okay. Then you can say I'm crazy. what I was going to do every day, okay. Then you can say I'm crazy. But I know that there's so many commonalities that it's worth that bridge for me, no matter what shit comes with it, because I've, you know, I've gotten a surfeit of shit as it is. I'm not worried about that. But I see that in a

lot of what you do. And I was, I made it through about 150 pages of your latest work, which is, I'm not going to give anything away. And you know what, by the way, it's too hard to give away Coben's stuff anyway. If you read his stuff at all, he has this gift of understanding where he's going and you don't think he's going there no matter how many of his books you read, because it's like, well, I get where this story's going. Yeah. He gets that you get it. And that's how he throws these freaking curve ball. But the idea of a guy has to go to prison, convicted of killing his own kid,

and then there are all these twists about how that didn't happen and he's got to get out. And it made me think, how do you do that? How do you, I'm not talking about process. I'm talking about our world has gotten so crazy. You could have never come up with the 2016 cultural and political timeline after that and the pandemic. And I don't care what people say about the one that came out 10 years ago about a pandemic.

This was way crazier. How do you say here is the supercharged version of this very relatable concept? And have you developed any insecurity about doing that, given how crazy everything has gotten? I mean, fiction's always been harder to believe than nonfiction. If I wrote Trump and all that stuff, no one would believe it. You'd throw the book across the room. A lot of, and when you look at, when you studied a lot of real cases, I remember the Elizabeth Smart case, for example. I mean, it was like a year and a half later, and someone said, hey, how come we never looked at the crazy homeless guy who has a God complex who was living in the house for a while?

How did no one look at him the first day? If I wrote that in the book, you'd throw the book across the link. And that's reality. So reality actually is tougher. And what you're talking about, and I think this is one of the great things about writing and trying to do it, is empathy. So like I wanted to, you know, your situation is almost,

you know, it's almost a novel. Part of me as I'm talking to you, because this is how my mind works, is thinking this is when you take someone and you pull out the rug from under them, however high or low they might have been, and they make a dramatic move. It could be from way up high to just high or high to whatever it is. You know, your life had a dramatic move that way. And that's really what happens in Humble Finds You to this guy. I want to say what would happen if, imagine starting the guy in the lowest place possible. The opening line is I'm serving the fifth year of a life sentence

for murdering my own child. Spoiler alert, I didn't do it. And a little bit like what you're saying, he then kind of explains that i don't really care because even if i'm found not guilty my kid is still dead and that's kind of a little bit of what like like you're saying here it's it's it's sort of profound in its own way what you what you're telling and then so how can i find redemption for that guy, the only way is if he can find this child again. So now we have to set up, if you're not interested in that,

I'm not your author. Any better guys you can read. But that's, you know, that, that, that whole thing, those sort of how people are,

you know, rise and fall is what really makes interesting fiction. Look, no shame in my game. I've been using AG1 for over five years. Why? It works, it's easier, and it's less expensive. That's why. Since 2010, they've been getting their formulations right

and tweaking their formulas. Why? Because the science changes, okay? It's not like politics where people decide to believe one thing and no matter what happens. Why? Because the science changes. Okay? It's not like politics where people decide to believe one thing and no matter what happens with the facts, they never shift. This is the opposite. Oh, prebiotics work with probiotics, but in this way, D works with K and this type of B works with that. They have the scientists doing it. So I don't need all the bottles. I don't have to spend all the money and I don't have to figure out when to take what and why. More importantly, it's not just the regular list of vitamins. It's the extras, okay?

The adaptogens, the prebiotics, the probiotics that support your body's universal needs, gut optimization, immune support, stress management. that's what foundational nutrition is about and these are the people at ag1 who've been doing the work to get it right okay i tell friends i tell family i get no complaints okay if you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1. You get a free one year supply of vitamin D3, K2 and five free AG1 travel packs. OK, that's what happens with your first purchase. So make it. Go to drink AG1 dot com slash CCP drink AG1 dot com slash CCP. Check it out. We don't fake the funk here, and here's the real talk.

Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70. I know it's taboo, it's embarrassing, but it shouldn't be. Thankfully, we now have HIMS, and it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment, and it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment,

and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why? Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments, and you do it right from your couch. HIMS provides access to clinically proven generic alternatives to Viagra or Cialis or whatever, and it's up to like 95% cheaper. And there are options as low as two bucks a dose. HIMSS has hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers. So if ED is getting you down, Time to pick it up. Start your free online visit today at HIMS.com slash CCP. H-I-M-S dot com slash CCP.

And you will get personalized ED treatment options. HIMS.com slash CCP. Prescriptions? You need an online consultation with a healthcare provider, and they will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. You see the website, you'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. How do you dance the line of wanting to address what's happening in the world, in public events, culture, politics, whatever it is, without becoming part of that dialogue

and losing the escapism gift of your craft? In the oldest way possible, and that is I can do it via story. In other words, I don't want people to come to my book thinking he's a right-wing lunatic, he's a left-wing kook. And I can actually change more minds by being subtle and not polemic. And as we know online or whatever else, no one's mind is changed that way. No one. The only way minds are ever changed,

first of all, in the cynical side of of me is when you align it with their self interest as much as people want to appeal to people's better angels that just never works unless it also appeals to their self-interest and you know one of the things reading does do i think is give you empathy reading and writing gives you empathy and empathy is going to be one of the few things that saves us again i'm not even talking politics with you but the politicians or leaders who do not read any fiction versus the ones who do you'll notice a huge difference in empathy and in that sort of in the feeling that they're a real person and so that's so what i try to do is do it via story, but not, and part of my job is to understand the other side, whatever.

I've made arguments for the other side in things that I completely disagree with because a character does. But by doing that, now you will be let in and try to, and I think I could change more hearts and minds that way. It's not my goal. My goal, I'm entertaining you, right? My job is you take, I will find you to bed tonight, 11 o'clock. You say you're going to read for 10 minutes. It's four or five in the morning and you're cursing me.

That turns me on. That's my goal. I want you to disappear. You've turned on one of my Netflix shows. It's, you're going to watch one episode. You watch all eight in one sitting. I'm a happy camper. That's my job.

But as a human being, the storytelling has to kind of do that if i stop and i try to stick in something it will stick out like a sore thumb and it will backfire really in every way the other thing is this is something i'd love to see normalized or or even applauded mind-changing i love when i find out i'm wrong about something and i change my mind that i looked at something wrong now for some reason we sort of defend like you know i felt the same way since 1986 well then you're stupid yet when you get no information change your mind that why can't we should learn to embrace that instead of criticizing that in all people

and so it makes it harder for people who kind of go, oh shit, I backed a really crappy horse here, but I just got too much of my ego invested. Imagine if we made it a positive quality that you realize, oh, I messed up. This guy I've been supporting, he's awful. One way or the other. Again, that would be a cool thing. All right, my rant is over.

No, it's not a rant. It's an obvious anodyne observation, really. Here's the problem. As long as the game is zero-sum, I can show no weakness. And in politics, right or wrong, and we could spend hours tracing its roots, change is weakness. And that was one of the problems that I wish I had understood and articulated and advocated

about during the pandemic. You should have never had a clinician as the face of the pandemic response. It had to be a politician because things were going to have to be finessed, nuanced. There was going to have to be a case made. You're going to have to convince people, even if you couldn't prove it to them, but you believe that this was the right thing. That's all politics. that this was the right thing. That's all politics. When they put Fauci or Birx or whoever it was up front, anybody with a white coat, science is exactly what you just said, which is science is we thought it was flat. Now we know it's round. Science is we thought we had to clean all the

vegetables. Now we know it's aerosolized okay new facts new position in politics that's death so what we did was we put a scientific standard in a political dynamic and it played his weakness holy cow the guy's changing his mind again one minute masks will make you sick the next minute this now this vaccine it never tried it. It seeds doubt. And by the way, that is why, to not have to do your own homework if you're watching or listening to this, that's why in politics changes weakness, because it changes the dynamic of persuasion. People are not like Harlan Coben, where, hmm, I like a little doubt. I like when the person's not sure. I'm glad you can't give me an answer. That is not leadership in the American paradigm.

We expect black and white and easy answers. We expect to learn that 140 characters be able to sum up our positions. And that's a view of the world that, as a novelist, I've never liked. Because my job is to find all the grays and the nuance that doesn't exist anymore, that we don't care about that the answer is not so simple that maybe the other side is a point all the things that i thought we try to grow up with a little bit but now it's all and the audience noticed also on top of i agree absolutely what you're saying is also the what what gets clicks the most outrageous ridiculous

horrible i was actually joking there. I've been working too hard on my villains, you know? I mean, most of the villains now, they have the complexity of Gaston or Jafar. There's no gray at all. They're just, holy shit. And it's weird. I was naive. I really was. I grew up in this era, and I thought I'd have to give my villains, I hope I do, reason. I hope at the end you kind of say, oh, I get why this person did what they did. But just nowadays, we kind of, where everybody is either

the bully or more often, we are the, even worse, we are that person in the playground who loves the bully and we're standing behind him and cheering him on because we're too chicken shit to do it ourselves. That's what we are experiencing as a society. And boy, we are going on a lot of different topics, aren't we, Chris? But I'll tell you what, first of all, that is the exact aim here.

Because I'll tell you, as a consumer and a fan of your work, I think that, and it's hard to have this perspective when you are in the creation business. I'm in the repeating business, you know, I am in the news business and it's different than being a creative like you, but I do know that it is a gift for the people who love your work to understand where your head is on things that have nothing to do directly with your work because it gives them a deeper appreciation of what you do with your work. And I think that one of the saving situations, I won't say a grace, but one of the saving situations we have is that your success, your popularity, and the genre's popularity is proof that people are still willing to search. And they're still willing to be engaged in ways that are going to make them unsure of,

I mean, especially you. It's like if you took a political mindset of where we are with this zero-sum binary toxic political system, no one's ever going to read something that may now come out the way they want it to. That's all we do in politics is it must be. It must be what I need it to be for me to be right. And I believe that one of the tender mercies that we still have in our culture is that there are people like you putting out stuff where you can get away from that. It's okay, by the way. It's not seen as

cheating on your tribe. And read something that makes you think, huh, I didn't see that coming. And I would have never thought that that person or this situation was going to happen, but I'm glad it did. It's one of the last refuges for that in our society in a way. I was talking to James Patterson the other day, and he is way more political. And there's an obvious frustration for him in that he wants to make more of an impact. And my point to him was this same point, which is you don't understand, you'll never make the impact in politics that you're making here. You're good. You're not that good because you can mess with your mind. You're not going to mess with people's hearts and their fears and their self-protection.

You're going to lose that battle of persuasion. Stick where you're at. So I hope that you appreciate that. I hope you appreciate that about what you're doing. Well, thanks. I mean, it's trying, if we can, you know, if you can shine lights and story, I mean, it's been a, it's not a, it's not a new tradition. What I'm saying is not exactly cutting edge.

That serves as much a purpose. I mean, putting a certain block up on a tweet or whatever else, that's not changing anybody's mind. It's just pissing people off. True. And causing, in a way, you're feeding it, this beast even more. But I think it's a gift. That's why I was chasing after you.

As you said in the beginning, that's why I never listened to, you know, to the guys who are predicting on shows like you used to be on because no one gets it right. Literally, no one said like a guy in Tunisia is going to set himself on fire and that's going to start an Arab Spring.

No one predicted we'd all be addicted to these phones that we hold all the time. No one predicted Trump or Biden. I mean, no one gets it right. You could have 500. No one gets it right. So I try not to pay attention to that kind of a thing and sort of do what I do via story.

And one of the things that somebody wants, I got early advice from an editor, which I try to follow, is my job as a writer is to take you where you don't exactly know you want to go. What you're talking about, like people want to go. You're what you're talking about. Like people want to hear their narrative when they turn on the news. My job is for you to think you're going to get that narrative as you kind of

pointed out, but take you somewhere else and you enjoy it. You're happy for it. Can't do that with facts because that ticks people off. Well, and you're assuming that that's what they're going off of. You know, I think it's much more feelings about facts than facts.

In fact— I'm using the word facts incorrectly, yes. One of the worst defenses I ever gave on television—it was a good defense. It was a cogent defense, but it was never going to be met with any kind of fairness— is when Kellyanne Conway, who I've known for a very, very long time, is a friend of mine, which pisses people off, which always makes me, it's so funny that people will see me as an instrument of the left and then hate me for being friends with Kellyanne Conway. Talk about, you know, can't win by losing. But when she said there are alternative facts, the left crucified her as if she was saying that what you say are facts or not facts. That is not what she was saying.

It was not what she meant. But it was so interesting to me how I know the people who are crushing her knew what she was trying to say. But they were not going to give her the benefit of that because they liked that they had her and they wanted her down. And the point was as simple. It's not, you know, there's nothing abstruse about it. The point was you say, hey, this has happened 150 times and that's too many.

And I say, yeah, but there are alternative facts. What are you saying? It's not 150? No, I'm trying to say only five of them happened in an area that were vulnerable and the other 145 didn't. That's a fact too. It's an alternative fact to your own.

That's all she meant. And you know it, you get it at home. You get it wherever you're listening to this, but you had her and you wanted to take her down. And I see that all the time in my business. So what I've tried to do, because I can't do what you do. We need what you do. Love what you do, literally need it. But I have decided

to make different choices with the work that I do. This is easy. I talk to people that motivate my existence on the podcast. I like what you do. I need what you do. I feed off what you do I need what you do I feed off what you do because it helps me forget how this shit really goes that I've covered like even I will find you you know I know so much about the reality of what puts people away

not like this guy this guy's atypical but that it's nice for me to have a different version of reality that I can look at keeps me open it keeps me almost hopeful but what I've decided to do is because I think there's very little that I can look at. It keeps me open. It keeps me almost hopeful. But what I've decided to do is, because I think there's very little that I can do that will be

helpful, but that's my only cue, is I used to referee the game. That's what I did. At CNN, that's what I did. They want to call me a lefty, they want to call me lefty. You want to say that I'm against the left, say, I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. But I refereed the game. I don't referee the game anymore. What I do is I just tell people when the game has become so dominant that I can't ignore it, I say, let me just show you what the game is here. Because the game's always being played. Show you the game, expose it to you. Nobody understands it any better than I do. I've been doing this for 30 years and I was raised, I've been around 15 different elections, personally, let alone professionally. I know what's happening.

Here's what it is. You do with it what you want. And then my deep dives are no longer on politics. I do not believe I can go deep enough to reveal something that will change anybody's mind. I just want them to know they're getting played and that's your determination. If you want to play along, go ahead, but here's how you're getting played. Knock yourself out. Crime. I've always loved crime. I was the head of law and justice at ABC News. I was the anchor of 2020. I've always loved crime. Didn't do it at CNN. Why? We had too many huge political exigencies going on for people to have any other need of self-protection. Now I talk crime more than I ever have on cable television. Why? Politics is too crazy and too foreign. Whereas murder trials, even if they're

like horrible things, are far more relatable. Not that people are homicidal, but I have a kid like that in school. I knew a guy like this here. And how is the process going to work? And what is justice here? And do they really have a... These things actually still matter. So on the new show, I do a lot more of that. And sometimes I bridle, you know,

because, you know, journalists, I'm going to tell you a little secret. Journalists are kind of looked down on crime. They see it as like tabloidy. But I was one of those, even though, because when I would do law and justice, I'd do terrorism and stuff like that. Now I feel totally different, Harlan,

because I feel that actually matters to people. Not that you have an Alec Murdoch in your backyard. But you might. But you might. And something about it, power and privilege. Will the system treat this guy the same way? Really? And the expectation of outcome. I don't know which way this is going to go. I thought the guy was 100% guilty until this. And now, I don't really know. I see that as more valuable to people as connective tissue,

to tie him to the institution of our democracy that matters, which is the administration of justice. Because if you look at it through the political lens, like what's going on in New York with the former president, you can't have a straight take on the system. You can only see it as part of the problem, no matter which side of the equation you're on. And that's as close as I can get to what you do,

not because I'm fictionalizing anything, but you have a genius, particularly so, of telling stories that keep our heads in the world of the possible, but then you elevate with romanticism of outcome and process. You give us a sense of not just outcomes, but of ways things happen that are almost magical.

I can't do that, but I can reveal the magic within the reality that we have. And I think that's the best thing that I can do. I don't think that there is any percentage in me making the case for anything, even like school shootings. Like last night, I did this thing on school shootings. I wasn't going to do anything. And Dusty, my EP, who I've made part of the show, that was another thing. There's no filter on my show. I mean, I don't curse because I'd get fired, but you want to know who's talking in my ear, I'm going to tell you who's talking in my ear and what they're saying. And when I don't believe something that you just said, I'll say, I don't remember that.

I don't think that's the right day. Dusty, will you check Harlan right now and just see? All right, you keep saying what you're saying, but I'm going to check it. There are no, it's completely transparent. And, you know, we even do phone calls on the show. And, you know, we do it that way because I think it's the only way that I can help.

And at the end of the day, that's why you're doing what you do. You help people. You give them a distraction from their reality that actually helps them connect to reality. But certainly, yeah, I mean, I try. It's an old-fashioned tradition. It's storytelling. It's a tradition as old as time. And the fact that you're able, you know, that's how we used to learn.

That's how we used to be taught. And even, you know, you're talking about this political stuff. I've sort of concluded it's a little bit like fandom or religion or cults. But, you know, if you're a Yankees fan and you find out the Yankee manager

is a cheat and beats his wife and does horrible things, you don't become a Red Sox fan. Right. You stay a Yankees fan. And that's where you're talking with Kelly and whatever else. They're going to stay the Yankees fan. They're going to stay the Red Sox fans.

And we know this is true because we saw it with the Yankees with Billy Martin. You knew he was a bum. You know, he almost made us blow Reggie Jackson. And you still liked him. I like his spunk. Yeah, exactly. All of a sudden, the guy, hockey's even the best when you have somebody who's the goon on the other team. Now he's on your team.

He's your favorite player. And talking about refereeing even, and I hope you don't get too many calls about this, but when Tom Brady had his deflation gate, if you're a patriots fan you saw it one way and if you're not you saw it another way and that's a referee issue like you were saying trying to be the referee on the air why are people still saying left and right everyone just has now you know it's like everybody's sort of pretending they're a lawyer in court and just looking for evidence truthful or not that's going to back their particular narrative. Yeah.

And so what I try, you know, what you try to do in fiction is to just show what that person is sort of thinking inside in their own philosophies that have led them to this place where they are where they are. Because people, you know, whatever you want to say, as I said, I'm making my villains too complex. But I think by learning their origin stories and by doing it in a story way, it may help people see other truths. Who knows? You know, you try your best. What can you do? Oh, no, I think it absolutely does

because it expands the realm of possibility of outcome. And that's what's in such short supply in our society today because I don't even see it as a political issue. I really don't. I don't see anything that's happening in politics as residing only there. It's all cultural development. This is cataclysm of a heterogeneous young culture where the only thing we have that knit us together are our events and our rules, because we don't have color, type, ethnicity. We don't have any of those things that homogenous countries

get as an advantage. Now, I think we're better off. I think diversity wins every time, which is why America has been so tough to beat on so many different levels. But we're in cataclysm. So whatever's happening politically is happening everywhere. And you talk to people and you see the resistance. I have a buddy, one of my buddies who's a fan of yours. He was like hitting me over the head with something. We're getting the boats ready to go back in because the season's starting. And he's like, well, this transgender thing, this lady, the swimmer. And I said, transgender people in sports is an obvious

source of controversy. It's also like a small, small slice of a small, small slice of a small, small slice. You're making it sound like this is happening every day in every school. And he's like, oh, come on. You don't think it's weird? I said, here's what I think. Why do you care what I decide to call myself? I show up tomorrow and I say, you know what? I've been fighting a fight my whole life. And I'm not a guy. I'm just not. I don't feel like it.

This is how I want to live. This is how I want to be. Now you got a choice. Am I still your friend or am I not your friend? Even if you think what I'm doing is weird. Why is it any more to you than that? If you don't like it, then don't accept it. But it's not your life.

And he was like, oh yeah, but now they want us. See, and that was it. I said, see, you were with me for a second. For a second, that's the way we would deal with it. This is my friend. This is my friend's kid. How do I feel? How can I help? I love them. Do I want to deal with what they're dealing with? No, I don't see it as a positive. I see it as a real turmoil, but now you took it to the they and the us. See, so it's everywhere. And what you do is give all of us an opening on the realm of possibility. Now, let me ask you one other thing. You're in all these TV projects, small screen, big screen. Do you enjoy the development of the visual the way you do the written? They're different, but I enjoyed them both, yeah.

I mean, there's something that's funny. Writing in books are, I think, more magical and all of that. But I think Stephen King said it. Movies and TV are cool. I just came back. I was on a set of mine in Manchester, England for a new show. And every time I go on a set, I'm seeing all these actors and cast casting crew. And I think I was sitting here in my little, in my house in New Jersey. I came up with this weird idea and now hundreds of people are putting it to life and Netflix is going

to push a button. It's going to be in 200 countries with 200 million. And that's heady and really, it's just something really cool about watching your vision be brought to life. Even if it's not exactly how you saw it, even if it's not exactly how you saw it, even if there's parts of it, you know, you would change or whatever, because it's now collaborative. It's fun, it's special. And for me as a storyteller,

that I now have two ways of doing it, not just the books, which are still my main source of pride and joy, but I also have these TV shows that, frankly, are watched by many more people than read any book. You know, in two days of a tv i think when the stranger came out on netflix and in two days they had like you know three three hundred million hours of viewing or whatever it is so it's fun i mean part of it at this age

too is i i want this stuff i'm just having fun with you know i don't really feel like uh like you say you guys stage in my career. I had written a lot of books and I wanted to try something a little different. And I haven't had a good time. Do you ever go back and read any of your old books? Oh, yeah. I have to adapt them. And I always, I was recently rereading The Innocent.

We made it into a Netflix Spain show, which is also fun to do in other countries and foreign languages. And I midway through it, I'm like, where am I going with this? Like, which is also fun to do in other countries and foreign languages. And I've made my way through it. I'm like, where am I going with this? Like, who is this character? So I write as many books as I do. And sometimes, you know, one of the criticisms of my work is that I have a habit of twisting too much. Well, yeah, it's fair.

You don't like twists and turns. I'm not your guy. Here's the thing, Chris. When you read an old book, it's like if I ask you to watch an old interview you do, and even if you thought it was great back then, you go, nah, I was dumb then. You know, if you find that old essay you wrote in college that you thought was so brilliant, and you read it now, and you go, nah, because you're older now, and you think, what did that stupid kid know? It's the same thing with old books. So when people ask me what my favorite book is, I'm like, I will find you my newest,

which is also self-serving answer, but that's kind of how it is because it's closest to the me now. The adaptation though, gives you a chance to improve it. So you have, you know, what the innocent is and then, okay, but here's, we're going to do something different now. And I should have done this then, but now I know, so I'm going to do it. How easy slash hard is it for you when you watch choices being made about who is going to portray and they're not spot on what you were thinking about? Lucky enough, I'm in a position where it happens. I can actually veto it, which is rare for an author, but because I'm also a showrunner on most of these shows, it's a cooperative thing. There are times when that happens. But I don't necessarily,

I think the worst adaptations stay slavishly devoted to the text. The book is a book and a TV series is a TV series and they should be different. One is a visual medium. So like when I did The Stranger in the book, The Stranger is sort of a nerdy,

white computer geek. In 2011, when I wrote that book, that kind of worked. But I was the one who came up with the idea of having Hannah John Kamen, who's a woman of color, play that role. Not because I wanted to be politically correct, but it looked cool on the screen. And you completely bought that whole dimension when she goes and drops the bomb on people. It's just better visually. It was better. Her acting was better. So that's part of the joy is that you

can change it and a visual medium is different. So I've never locked in or precious about keeping close to the story. I just want to tell the best story possible. And oftentimes the way I did it in the book works for the book, but doesn't work on the screen. It's an interesting second level of pressure. You know, like you're, you're creating this story. You're like, oh, are they going to like this? Is this going to work? Now you got a whole new set of that with who you pick. I mean, I remember growing up, I was a huge Robert B. Parker, Spencer for hire guy. And Mark Wahlberg ain't Spencer. And when they did the, uh, the TV show, the guy who was Hawk, who was like his heavy guy, who I had a very, very set image of in my head, was not the actor that they picked, who I thought was fine, but he just did not have that feel of being able to take the punishment that this guy and dish out the punishment that he could.

And it's also because I'm a self-defense geek and I fight all the time, so I have even more strictness about those kinds of vibes. all the time. So I have like even more strictness about those kinds of vibes. And I was thinking in preparing for this, oh, it's like, he's got to go all through the anxiety all over again. It's like, I got the story, right? People like the story, but now am I going to get the character play, right? How do you do that? Well, with the series character, I have a serious character named Myron Bolotar and Myron and Wayne. And those have always been more difficult, which is why I haven't yet made it. We're talking, Netflix is now developing it. But I know, frankly, between us and your whole audience, I probably won't like the series character

I've written 11 or 12 times. I'm nervous about it because the same thing, what you're saying with Spencer for Hire or other, I never loved those kind of shows. For books, I mean, I love Robert P. Parker. He's one of my heroes. And even in his obituary, I was fortunate to be quoted saying 90% of my colleagues admit he's an influence, 10% lie about it. He was a hero in many ways to me. But I don't want people seeing Avery Brooks

as fuck. I don't want whoever is playing Myron or Wynn for you to see them. I don't worry so much if The Stranger, if Richard Armitage isn't exactly Adam for you, or Michael C. Hall isn't exactly Tom. Okay, it's one book. We'll be okay. But I do get worried about it for the series. And my guess is I won't love that particular series as much as I really kind of enjoy the standalone ones that I've been doing with Netflix right now. I think the solace is you're going to have a new audience. You got to take the chance because otherwise, better than not existing at all. I mean, when people get super upset about it, I'm like, whoa, calm down. I'm just making this stuff up and you're reading it just, you know, but I don't want you to have stuck in your head, you know, whatever actor's going to play it. When I remember

selling the rights years ago to a guy named John Kelly, who's running Columbia Sony studios, he ended up not getting made, but he's like, you're going to hate this movie. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm going to love it. He goes, no, I mean, for Myron Boulter, I'm thinking Adam Sandler. I'm like, what? He's a big star. Maybe Jim Carrey's big right now. I'm like, what? No, he's not. So every actor he kept going, I kept going, it's not that they're bad actors, they're all great, but they weren't Myron Boulter in my head. And that's just part of what you got to put up with. I like that you called yourself in one of these articles the Jerry Lewis of this fiction genre.

And I'll tell you what, I'll give you it because I was a huge Jerry Lewis fan, and it was always remarkable to me, and I don't know anybody else who has achieved this, he was so not who he played and how he played. And not just because comics tend to be dark and deal with shit, but there was a depth to that guy and an edge that the crazy professor would have never had. And I think that it is one of the best gifts of a creative to be able to deliver what they are not you know what i mean like for an actor okay it's hard to be a good actor but there are plenty of good actors that play themselves in different roles um again and again and again and we're just fine with it because we like the the movie you do something different and i think it's great and i think it's

needed and i think it's appreciated and that's why we chased you down to have you on the Chris Cuomo project. Thank you very much. I appreciate you. Glad to be caught. I love what you're doing. I love why you're doing it and how, and I wish you every success. And I look forward to it because I need it. I need to consume what you're putting out. And Chris, just one thing to back to you, when you were talking before, it's like one of my favorite quotes that I've used in a lot of books is the Yiddish expression, man plans, God laughs. In five years from now, you're going to be in a place, my guess is better than you think, but definitely not going to be where you think. And that's exciting. I think, you know, man plans, God laughs, as you know, better than anybody,

You know, man plans God's life. As you know better than anybody. But that happens all the time. So... You are right. I am okay. I'm all right. I'm all right. You don't know what's going to come, and I'm okay with that.

Because I know what I control. I know what I don't. Maybe better than any other time in my life. And I appreciate the well-wishing, and I look forward to reading you all along the way. And if you want my story, you can have it. Just make sure I don't die in an inglorious way, And if you want my story, you can have it. Just make sure I don't die in an inglorious way, okay? No one's going to buy it if I write it as fiction. If I die, it's got to be heroic, all right?

Eight, ten guys. They have scimitars. I have a pencil. You know, the last one gets me because I think it's over. That'll work. Harlan Coben, thank you very much, brother. Be well and continued success. Thanks very much, Chris.

Nice talking to you. Isn't it interesting to know more about how the people who make what we take in see the world around them? Not just their work, not just their process of how they write or how they produce or how they act, but how they are reading the same dynamics that we are and how that informs what they do that we all love. I love that kind of conversation and I'm really happy that Harlan Coben was willing to have it. So thank you for subscribing and following and wearing your independence and for following on News Nation. Yes, it pains me that so many of you still don't know that I'm back on cable television doing news, but I'm at News Nation and we'll put a link up for you to find the show and please do 8 and 11 p.m. Eastern, five days a week.

It's great to have you. Thank you for having me. I'll see you next time.