The Chris Cuomo Project - How You Actually Beat Trump

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

Heading into the midterms, what actually beats Trumpism — and is the two-party establishment even capable of it? Chris Cuomo brings together three of the sharpest and most different voices in American politics to argue over what's really broken and what actually wins. Marjorie Taylor Greene (former U.S. Representative for Georgia's 14th Congressional District) details the falling-out that ended her alliance with Donald Trump — the White House phone call in which she says he warned her "friends are going to get hurt" if the Epstein files came out, the death threats against her family, and the loyalty demands that led her to conclude the movement had become a cult and the whole system is broken. James Carville (Democratic strategist and political commentator) makes the case that Trump is an existential threat that calls for scorched-earth tactics, and spars with Cuomo over the better path to a majority — hammering Trump as the most destructive figure in the country, or winning back voters by telling them "you're right about what's wrong, and here's who actually fixes it." Brian Tyler Cohen (YouTube and podcast host, "No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen," and author, "The Day After: How to Wield Power in a Post-Trump World") argues Democrats are institutionalists to a fault — too precious about the filibuster and the norms while the other side barrels through them — and that the only way to beat the fear-mongering is to seize power and actually deliver for people. Join The Chris Cuomo Project on YouTube for ad-free episodes, early releases, exclusive access to Chris, and more: https://www.youtube.com/@chriscuomo/join Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Upgrade your everyday—go to https://quince.com/cuomo for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK. NOBL gives you real travel peace of mind — security, design, and convenience all in one. Head to https://NOBLTravel.com for 46% off your entire order! #NOBL #ad Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And for you, I have a little reminder of the great stuff we've done on the Chris Cuomo project, all for you and with you. I'll see you soon. themselves. Donald Trump's response to us is, boy, are you guys naive? I think you, you change. You change for the worst. Israel is an easy analysis for him, right? They're under attack. I'm with them. Right now, he's in a tough spot because Bibi doesn't want to get out of the Iran situation and Trump's going to have to use his leverage. I think that's actually the easiest part of this for him. But he says, I didn't change. I am MAGA. Maga's whatever I say it is.

the moment. Marjorie Taylor Green isn't with it. She she bought into bullshit about Epstein and she bought into bullshit about me for her own popularity, but I'm still me. Trump is always Trump. You've changed. I don't think I bought into any bullshit about Jeffrey Epstein. He's a convicted pedophile and my entire political career was sacrificed on fighting against the president himself to released to Epsine files. So nothing ever changed about me. Wait, I want to give you a chance on that. His people say to me all the time, and this is not going back to put you what you, this is something you're going to want to address, where they say, yeah, yeah, he never said anything to her about Epstein files and his friends and people

going to get exposed that he didn't want. He never said anything like that. What is the truth? The truth is he called me from the White House and I was in my office. And I was in my office. office in the Rayburn building. And I had a very tough phone call with the president where he told me that his friends were going to get hurt. He said, people that you know, Marjorie in Palm Beach, he said, they're my friends and they're going to get hurt if these files come out. And I said, I'm sorry, Mr. President, I'm not taking my name off that discharge petition. Jeffrey Epstein is a rapist. He's a pedophile. And these files need to come out. This is what we campaigned on. This is transparency. And the victims deserve. And I actually told him also, I asked him to have these women

to the White House, to the Oval Office. He has all kinds of people in the Oval Office. He has sports teams. He has the new leader of Syria, who is a former terrorist. Yeah, ISIS. He had mom Donnie, the new mayor of New York, who he constantly attacked and criticized, he will have anybody in that Oval Office. But he will not have the victims that were raped as teenage girls by Jeffrey Epstein and other men to the Oval Office. And I asked him to do that, and he absolutely refused. So I don't care what does people say. I will tell the truth over and over again about that phone call, just as I will tell the truth about the text messages, where he said, and I informed him about the death threats that we had coming in on my own son, and I told him

that it's, you know, I said, no matter the disagreement in politics, no one's children should ever be threatened or murdered. It's totally unacceptable. And he told me it was my fault and that I deserved it. Yeah, I got the same message. When I said to him, look, I know what I signed up for. I know what my brother signed up for. I get it. I get the Fredo shit. I think it's ethnically insulting. And you should know that as a guy who grew up around a lot of Italians, which he did.

But I get all that. But you're making my kids own this. And it's not right. I don't go after his kids and they're all adults. Now he's forced my hand because the son's getting involved with these businesses that are getting government contracts is just stupid. I don't know why they're doing this. They don't need to do this. But I never went after his kids.

never even though they're adults and he i got the same message this is on you be nice and then you don't have to worry about it wow so see there's if he said the same thing to you that he said to me about the death threats on my son then he has a clear pattern of saying that so he doesn't care if anyone's children die uh because because we're disagreeing with him um which shows this is why he doesn't care that children were bombed and murdered in Iran, he wouldn't care. He would say, I would deserve it. If my son were murdered because he's calling me a traitor for standing with women who were raped as teenagers, and he's saying the same thing to you, that if something terrible were to happen to your children, well, you shouldn't have said what you said and you deserve it. Well, look, I'm sure he

would say, I don't want to see kids get hurt. His higher value is, though, you're against him. If you're against him. But he doesn't say that. Chris, he never said that. He never said to me, no, he didn't say that. Oh, I believe you. If he had said that, if he had said, I don't want to see kids get hurt, then I would be saying he said he didn't want to see kids. But he did not say that. He said, it's your fault.

You deserve it. He said, you deserve it. You deserve for your son to be killed, foregoing against him to release Epstein files. That's what he said to me. So why do you think he allowed the Epstein? transparency crowd. And remember, he put Cash Patel and Dan Bongino in positions of extraordinary power on the basis of this, that they were out front saying, oh, there's a lot in there, there's a lot in there, there's a lot in there, and then he never delivered. Why did he make it

a part of the MAGA campaign if he didn't ever intend to allow it to come out? I have no idea. I can't even begin to answer that question. I mean, isn't that crazy? If somebody came to you and said, hey, part of your next campaign is going to be like the three things that you hate about yourself, you would say, no, I don't want anything to do with that. I don't want, that's not, that's not helpful to me. Why did he do it? I have, I have no idea. I can't even begin to speculate.

You know, I often think when I was reviewing for this, there are people in your position. Now you got Nancy, I think, look, on Epstein, you have high ground. I mean, there's just no other way to see it. In my opinion, I'm not saying that people should be, you know, pilloried or canceled or whatever, but the idea of transparency is really simple. And that's what you guys were about. You, Nancy Mace, APL, Anna Polina Luna. No, she didn't sign her name on the discharge petition.

There were only four of us, Thomas Massey, myself, Nancy Mace, and Lauren Boeberg. That's who I'm thinking of. Lauren Bolberg. Yeah, Anna Paulina Luna, she refused to sign her name on the discharge. petition. But do you see her as an ally in the Epstein transparency calls overall or no? No, I see her completely obedient to whatever the White House tells her to be, which is why she didn't sign the discharge petition. She was just like the rest of the, all the Republicans were cowards, Chris, all of them. They were, so first off, let's be clear, the Democrats never cared

about the Epstein files. If they had, they would have gone hard charging into that during the four years. they had control. Fair. You don't believe the Galane Maxwell excuse where they say, oh, well, there was an ongoing litigation. No. No, I don't believe any of it because I never heard one single Democrat that I served with. And I served under Nancy Pelosi when she was speaker. I served all four years under President Biden. And I never, ever heard a Democrat bring up the Epstein files. They only latched on to it when they found out, oh my gosh, people really care about this. This is a big deal. Then they thought, they. heard us, they heard us talking about it. And then they latched on to it and all of a sudden

they were all for it. So when it came to the discharge petition, you can only get a resolution or a bill to the floor for a vote. Only two ways. The speaker says, let's move this bill through committee and bring it to the floor for a vote. And then the second way is if the speaker refuses, which Mike Johnson had a lock on that resolution because he was being told by the White House and by Trump, do not let that bill, do not let it get a vote. So we had to create a discharge petition. Well, all the Democrats jumped on immediately

because it was an attack on Trump in their eyes. But there were only four Republicans, Massey, myself, Mace, and Bobert that had the courage to sign on to it. And the rest of the Republicans were straight up, cowards, even though they had campaigned on release the Epstein files. They only voted for it because the public outrage was so immense for months through the government shut down and all the months leading into that. It was the number one call that came into my office and we received

thousands of calls every single day. God bless my staff that had to go through all the voicemails and answer the phones. But it was the number one call for months and months and months. And And the Republicans that finally did vote for it because four of us held on on the front lines as we were being attacked and yelled at and being threatened by Donald Trump and threatened by the White House and threatened by Speaker Johnson and threatened by everybody because we signed our name on there. Well, finally, when we passed that discharge petition and the resolution did come to the floor for a vote, oh, all of a sudden all these Republicans found their courage and voted to release us. signed it? He had to. That was the one place we forced his hand. He had to because he couldn't

politically survive it. And he also signed it, Chris, and let's be honest, because look at what has happened. All the files have not been released. Because he is in charge of the DOJ. He's in charge of the FBI. He's in charge of the entire executive branch that controls that key function. And do you have any question in your mind, whether Todd Blanche and all these other people are being straight with the American people when they say, no, we've given you everything that there is. I'll say this very clearly. Every single one of them, whether their intentions are good or bad or indifferent, every single one of them serve at the pleasure of President Donald Trump. Therefore, every single one of them are under his directive and what he commands them to do.

And that is the most significant thing that everyone needs to keep in mind when they're They are seeing a Todd Blanche or a Pam Bondi or a Cash Patel or whomever it is. All of those people have their jobs because they were appointed those jobs by President Trump. Therefore, they are not going to cross him. They are not, I mean, look at the only people that have crossed him. There's only a handful of us. You've got Joe Kent, he resigned. You've got myself, Thomas Massey, Thomas Massey, who just got taken out in his.

election. You've got Nancy Mace, who just lost her election, and you've got Lauren Bobert, who President Trump has said he's calling for a primary on her. So there's not many. You put Tulsi on that list? Well, Tulsi, she resigned with her husband's cancer. I think Tulsi did a very honorable job, but I wouldn't say Tulsi crossed the president. Well, I don't think it's crossing either. You don't take an oath to the president. You know, you take an oath of service and his name's not even in it in terms of even in the office isn't in it. So when MAGA folks say to you, oh, you left us, Marjorie, I know that that's super frustrating to you because you believe you're still fighting for exactly what you thought it was about.

But how do you explain the support of the president within MAGA when a lot of the things that were supposed to be fundamental to MAGA have either been ignored or? or actually counteracted? Well, the only place where I see those type of comments, interestingly, are on X and on Facebook. I only see those in my comments. I never run across that in person. I'm not kidding you. In person where I go to the grocery store.

I go to restaurants. I go to the gym. I go everywhere like a normal human being. And I never have anyone come up and say that to me. And so I think that's significant that the only place that exists is in the comments on social media. I also know that there's a prevalent bot problem on social media. And so I'm not saying all of these accounts are bots, but I do think a significant portion of them are bots because it's amazing to me. I can post something and I can instantly watch in less than a minute all these comments all of a sudden just.

just line up. And it's shocking to me, I'm like, I don't think anybody could have watched that video and commented within 33 seconds. It just doesn't happen. And so that's a, that's, I don't really consider that reality. I consider the reality that I live in every day where I really enjoy talking to regular people and most of them all say that I did the right thing. Because I held true to my beliefs and my positions, I didn't serve a man because I'm a Christian and I serve God, and I didn't swear an oath to a man

because I swore an oath to the Constitution, and the people I served were the people in my district. And that's the problem in MAGA to where, it comes from the top, where it's a loyalty test constantly, and it's a loyalty demand. And I'll not give my loyalty to any man because I'm not an occult.

I'm not in a cult. I don't serve some sort of weird religion where I have to do whatever some man says I have to do. Do you regret leaving public service and do you expect to return to it? I do not regret leaving the institution that has enslaved Americans

in nearly $40 trillion in debt that does nothing to fix the health care and health insurance horrific situation that Americans are living in. I do not regret leaving the institution that refuses to do anything about the fiscal cliff that is approaching in just a few years with Social Security. And I do not regret resigning after being called a traitor in having my life threatened and my son's life threatened because I sit up for women who were victims of rape as teenagers. And I don't regret leaving a party.

that didn't even lift a finger or utter even word of support for me when I was being treated that way. So no, I don't regret it. Not one bit. I'm a normal person that actually fell for the fantasy and the lie that you can run for Congress and actually make changes. I tried to do that, and I got there and found out this is a system that you can't change, you can't fix because the system is completely broken.

So no, I don't regret it one single bit. Is Trump just a feature of this? Well, do you think you'll run again? I have no idea what the feature holds. So you're not closed off 100%. You'll see what happens. I'm just a type of person that in every area of my life, I go, I have no idea of what I'll do in the future.

So this is just like anything else. There are no ambitions right now. No, no ambitions, but I never had ambitions before either. Support for the Chris Pummelmo Project comes from Quince. Let me tell you, I dig their stuff. I dig the shirts. I dig the quality. I dig the price point. And I do believe that just because you can get a quality garment for less doesn't mean you should forget that it is quality. Okay. And that really is the secret behind Quince. Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe that are staples, okay? Nothing exotic, no weird accessories,

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So you can't lose. Just please tell them I sent you so that they know that I'm trying to help their business. Okay. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash Cuomo. I think this gives the best chance for Democrats to get a majority.

I don't know. I don't know. I've got to say at some point, I know this, we're winning, Democrats are overperforming by, I don't know, anywhere between eight, probably 12 and a half, 13 points in every election that's being run. Everyone. I don't care where it is. It could be in Florida.

It could be in Georgia. It can be in Texas or anything that you look at. And when I'm, the other thing that I find greatly encouraging for, you're going to, you're our future democracy is black voters are very agitated and turning out in unprecedented numbers. Secondly, you had the election, the most important thing that happened last night, bear with me, was the Republican primary for governor of Iowa. There was all this Trump's on a rampage. Everybody that he endorses wins and everybody else loses, he is in total control of the Republican Party.

except it didn't work out in Iowa. And I think you're going to see a vote out of these agrarian states, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, for sure, a lot of Wisconsin, Minnesota. This man is destroying American agriculture. And it's something I knew about because I grew up agrarian. The increase said, I don't care about the price of gas. Let me tell you who plans about the price of petroleum.

them that's a far. They tract the fuel. They have fertilized. They've got transportation costs. They also need immigration laws that allow them to hire season of labor. So I think you can see a big, big, big, big anti-truck boat in agrarians. Well, they're also huge beneficiaries. And I'm not talking small farms. I'm talking agribusiness. They solicit, encourage, motivate, and compensate people for coming in illegally. They then reward them with jobs where they put them up in substandard houses with substandard wages. And those people wind up putting a lot of money into the economy. So the bad guy here has always been a little misdiagnosed, in my opinion, because you should be busting the employers. And not someone who's made, you know, a guy who's a senator who's made is from Honduras

and didn't come in or overstayed or visa or whatever. That's not the threat. The threat is the big employers. But big money always wins. See, that's what I don't get. Why aren't you more, not Bernie, not Bernie, because there's an idealism that seems to overshoot practicality with him. But go after the people who benefit from the bad system. Call out the bad system and go after that. That's the treasonous. That's the ruinous.

That's the decay. Trump is just a big mouth who's going to be gone in two years. Well, first of all, he's been gone and how much destruction and how much is he? Or do you think he's not going to be gone? Do you think he won't leave? Can I answer your question? Can I have a better question? Can I, can I?

I like the new question. I might not like corporate agriculture. Okay, I got to pick my targets. There's 50 things that I don't like, all right? But I got to pick my target. I might, I got to pick my target. And my target, who I think is the most instructive person in the United States happens to be our president.

And I cannot get that across with enough depth and enough passion right to see that and and i gotta tell you you know everybody sees what they want here's what they want but boys i travel around this country i'm a little bit of a walking billboard there's a lot of people i'd agree with me and not just no question people you would usually expect more than ever more than ever i just wonder who you're leaving on the table by saying i hate this guy i have tds he's the worst he's treasonous right i know i don't think you're lying i'm saying i'm saying i I wonder how many independents are like, all right, well, you've gotten a little bit too upset about this, Jimmy, and you've got to calm down and tell me how you're going to make it better. A lot of people have asked me to calm down, right?

I'm not asking you to calm down. You're pointing out that you're different. But however you do it, understand. I think this is, yeah, and by the way, independence is broken from Trump, depending, we could do it a half-hour show on independence and how you define them. because everybody has their own definition of independence. If you see a poll that has more than 10% independent, throw the poll out. It's not accurate. They don't know how to ask the question.

But even there, when he's lost 20% of the Republicans, you say, well, 97% of the Democrats are against him. Well, assume it's a 40, 40, 20, 20 country, 40, Republican, 40, Democrat, 40 independent. 97% of 40 is a substantially bigger number than 80% of 40. So you're going to have a lot of Democratic movement just as a result of self-identified Democrats or self-identified Republicans. He's underwater with the best definition of independence. He's probably underwater 40 points. This is not sustainable. I agree.

Can we get to the next election? I just wonder if you're helping him by becoming like him. I don't know. I got to do what I think. I've got to do what I feel. I don't think I'm like him. I'm not a criminal. I've never been convicted of a felony.

I've never bought and traded stocks in the middle of a war that I knew it was getting ready to happen. I've never done any of these things. I was asked by somebody, what's the difference thing? You're in the January 6th rioters. I'll tell you what the difference is. I'm not a criminal.

I didn't assault the Capitol. I didn't beat up a police officer. I used my constitution given, God-given right to speak out and save my mind. And I don't, I've never advocated that anybody ever break a law. because that would be the most necessary thing. But I do know what he's doing. I do know about all of the sleazy stock trading.

It's all been public. It's all been documented. I do know this is going on. I do know that he said he could care less about the war that Americans at risk that are overworking, that are over deployed, that are over everything. I do know he said he doesn't ever think about the American family's finances when he's making a decision.

I know that happened. I am not a criminal. I point out what I see. And at some point, the other hand, I don't even see any wisdom in the other hand. That's how passionate I am about this. But I am not a criminal. You are not a criminal.

You're nothing like a January 6th. January 6th is somebody who decided the system no longer mattered as much as their own ambition, as their own outrage, and that they would take things into their own hands and break the law and it was okay. And they were right because Trump did everything he could to not just motivate him to do that, but to save them from what they decided to do.

And that's what this slush fund was, which was, by the way, when I decided to have this conversation with you, when I saw that even on the right, one of the only benefits of them running away from their job and ducking out on the war powers resolution was that they, got to hear at home, hey, this slush fund, insulating him from ever getting audited again, giving them money, paying the people from January 6th. What the fuck? With my money, in the name of 1776 on our 250th birthday, you're doing this? They came back, as you know, but just for the audience, they came back, went to Johnson and said,

you got to stop this first. We cannot own this. We have owned too much already. we will not even give you votes on things that we need to do like CBP and Homeland Security. We're not going to do it. You've got to get rid of this. He went. He met with Trump.

He told him I'm scared about the caucus. I haven't heard him like this before. You've got to back off. And he did. And it made me realize that there is still space for these people and certainly regular people to respond to what's in their best interests. and best interest for American families is not hearing that I got to vote Democrat because Trump is a piece of shit who may want to ruin the country. It's going to be, I'm going to give these people power because I believe there's a chance that they'll do something about the things I know are wrong. That's the space, Jimmy, as I see it.

First of all, he didn't have votes, so to speak, said, I don't have the votes, all right? He wanted to do it. Understand. It's motivation. No question. No question. Dark motives. Again, the fact that he couldn't do it by losing five votes in the Republican House,

I don't know how much he would have lost it. It would have been much more than that. But that's plenty enough to kill it. Now we have this idiot arch that we're trying to deal with. And so much of what Trump does, Chris, is not just that it's ghost. It's stupid. It's undignified. It's part of what I see is he doesn't like our country.

He doesn't like our values. Our capital city is built on small or Republican values. So it doesn't look anything like London. It doesn't look anything like Versailles, all right? Because that's not what we do. We don't do ghosts. We do tasteful Republican architecture to reflect what the country is. He doesn't even understand that.

He doesn't understand anything about to origin this country. He's using the 250th anniversary, but frankly, he's embarrassing in the country. The concert and the fact that no one will do it, and they got every D-minus level entertainer saying, I'm not going to do this. So I go back to my central point is I think he is a threat to the United States. And all I see here does nothing but buttress my argument. I don't think he even knows what the United States is. Well, maybe it's all. They changed after the Civil War.

I know. That is true. I see it as a look, I think it's implore of a sunum. I think it's an entity. I think it's an is. And I think we've got to emphasize that much more than what you see is the current point of emphasis. I don't disagree with you about your analysis.

And, you know, I was thinking the other day and talking with Andrew, my Andrew, my brother, about the difference, and he put this really well. The mistake of the Democrats is that they want everybody to be offended at what they're offended by and to be offended and to punish the other side for how offended they are. And that that's been a mistake and that people are tired of people telling them how to feel and who's bad and what's wrong. And that you need to be, instead of being offended, you need to be offensive. And you have to go at your opponents. and blame them for what's wrong and make sure these lawmakers are being heard or being told constantly

you own this you own this i'm running against you and you own what he says you own what he does and don't tell me that you don't say what he says no no if you don't speak against it what you ignore you empower and you own be offensive be on offense be attacking what's wrong and saying it's got to change and i'm here to change it maybe i didn't do it in the past but i see it differently now and our politics is all about rebirth, that that's the space. And I think that you're giving up that space if you get, because people are going to follow your lead. I'm seeing it already. And I respect that about you. But the idea of I can out Trump Trump, I don't know that that gets you where you want to be in the midterms. And isn't that what matters is winning the most elections?

Chris, be sure your brother sees to follow what I'm getting ready to say. All right. In the 90s to late 90s, I decided on my own that Ken Starr was a threat, was not a good guy, that this was all hypocrisy and pars and crap. People were going, oh, my God, you can't say that about Judge Stollman. Oh, God, he's a man of integrity. Oh, he's a man of integrity. Oh, he served in the Court of Appeals. Oh, my God.

You know what? It was one word to describe me. Correct. In 2021, early, 2021, I said, this identity, woke shit is killing Democrats, they need to get out of that. It's stupid. It's politically not, not only is it not productive, it's damning. You know what? I was right. Throughout 2023, on your show, repeatedly, I said, Joe Biden should not run for re-election. I went so far as to say on July to 7th of the year 2024 that he should drop out in President Clinton, President Obama should invite six people and have

four town halls around the country. You know what? I would have. right. In each and every one of these situations, I was told by the smart people, oh, no, this is not good. You don't understand. You got to do this. And I am convinced, more convinced that I'm right about this, that I was right about Star, that it was right about Woke, and that was right about Biden not running for president. That is my history. And I, like I said, I didn't come to this lightly. Just like when I said, Biden shouldn't be running free election. I called people. I said, man, I've never done this for my life. I love Joe Biden. I can't believe how much I like him. And I can't believe I'd do this.

But I cannot see a way out until a person said, James, you've got to do what you feel. And I can understand how you feel that way. And that's where I am now. And like I said, I'll give myself credit. In their 80s, you get to brag on yourself a little bit. I've been right on three big issues, and I'm convinced I'm right on the fourth. I look, I don't know that you're wrong. It's about whether or not it motivates the change that you want to see. I don't know. I'm not arguing that you're wrong about Trump.

That's easy. That's easy. It's about whether or not you're right about what wins more elections. And let's look at it through the prism of past and present. Do you believe that what you're saying right now beats Bill Clinton's approach that he took against Reaganomics and Bush? So no one ever thought in the deepest inner recesses that President Reagan or President Bush didn't like the country.

All right? But that call, during that situation, you said, look, I completely disagree with trickle down. I completely disagree with cutting food stamps or a different vision of the social segment. At no point did Bill Clinton or anybody around. around here, anybody in his government remotely think that Bob Dole was acting intentionally against the interests of the country.

It is a different time. This is a time where we're not, this is not Bob Doe, all right? This is not George Pataki. This is not Governor Tom Kane of New Jersey. This is an imminent threat to the United States and calls for God. different tactics, then you're running against someone who you think has the wrong ideas and the wrong priorities. Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from Noble, N-O-B-L. Let me tell you, it's worth remembering, especially now as it's back-to-school time of year. We're packing off the kids,

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What do you think has to happen differently? I mean, Trump has shown that our institutions are not sacrosanct. I mean, he has barreled through everything to get what he wants. Isn't that bad? Yes, but my argument is that you don't do it for self-enrichment. You don't do it for vanity projects. You don't do it to consolidate power for yourself. You do it to deliver for people.

You know, the example that I often point to is like, look how close we were to voting rights reform, but Democrats thought it was more important to adhere to protecting the filibuster than actually getting that legislation passed. And I think that something happens when you get to D.C. Some type of D.C. brain rot where you think that your job becomes to defend the institutions of government as opposed to ensuring that the government can actually deliver for people. You are not there to defend the filibuster. You are there to deliver for your constituents. And because we weren't able to pass voting rights reform, now we're in a world where they don't have it. We're in a world where we're watching black opportunity districts disappear throughout the entire South.

I wouldn't be surprised if by 2030 there are no opportunity districts in Republican-run states and that black representation has been completely eliminated. We defer to these institutions at the same time that Republicans show a blatant disregard for them. And so that asymmetry just creates a playing field that we're never going to win on. And so I hear what you're saying. It's not in, look, you know as well as anybody. It is not in the Democrats' DNA to consolidate power so that they can enrich themselves and build monuments to themselves.

It's just not in their DNA. Democrats are way too precious about government, precious to a fault about government. These are diehard institutionalists at their core. So I think that we have to be less precious about these institutions and way more precious about delivering for people because frankly, Chris, like you also know this just as well as anybody else does, which is we have a very disillusioned population. They became disillusioned with the Democrats, which led to a massive victory for Republicans. And now, because Republicans refused to deliver on their promises, because they've watched costs rise, health care get gutted, new wars in the Middle East start, the Epstein files continue to get suppressed. Now people are disillusioned with that party. So I think we're going to have one more bite at the apple from an electorate that's already at their wits end to gain power and show that we can do something with that power. But then we have to actually do something with that power. Okay.

This is a great conversation. Good. Now, I'm wearing this because this is what wins in the midterms and for good reason. And you should be wearing this. And this is what you guys should be about. I am not about your party. I do think you are nowhere near the level of downside that MAGA is. Maga is the most toxic populist movement that has devoured a party that I've ever seen.

Trump is a huge part of that, but he's not the only part of it. So is there opportunity? Does the country want different? Are they sick of the fringe? Are they sick of magnified minorities? Are they suspicious of the algorithm? Yes, yes, yes. everything's going in your direction.

The direction of change, they're in power. That's the best thing you got going for you. You are now the disruptors. There's so many levels of nuance here that you guys have to negotiate in order to get to where you want to be. The biggest one is what you're outlining in the book, how to use power, which is so smart. And that's why I'm happy to hawk the book for you, because I actually think it's a good

critical thinker literacy guide. You should read it. You don't have to agree with everything that Brian puts out, obviously, but it'll make you think about the right questions. The answers come and they're a function of preference. I am anti-party, but that is a luxury, right? I am anti-party because I know what Washington and Jefferson and Hamilton and Madison and Monroe and Teddy Roe and all of them said, which is the parties will kill us. They are killing us. But we are where we are. are and the rules are what they are and they're not going to change. I call for a constitutional convention. I'm like a poor man's Thomas Payne. You know, I'm trying to change the framework. This is a luxury. This is an academic conversation. I get it. Now, the filibuster, I believe, is a great

fulcrum for this conversation. If the institutions are not protected, respected, and used instead of abused, everything will break. The filibuster is frustrating as hell. You would have had a lot of change that you don't have now. So would Trump. And I think more than ever, we can't rule off a simple majority. We're too crazy, Brian. We need 60 votes for the next Supreme Court justice. And now it's over. It's just a simple majority. And that is killing us. You guys. started it with Harry Reid, and now you're paying for it with this Supreme Court. Are you sure you want to get rid of it? You said everything will break. My contention here, my retort to that is everything is broken. And so we can make the conscious decision to sit here and do nothing,

or we can do whatever we have to do to get something else done. Like, there is no world in which people always say, aren't you worried that if you do this, Republicans will abuse it? Republicans are already abusing it. So are we going to not act for fear of Republicans doing something that they're doing right now? I mean, we are watching Donald Trump barrel through all of these institutions. We're watching the Republican Party not lift a finger as he shatters the emoluments clause. I mean, this guy, you could make the argument, good faith, that Donald Trump is not even acting in the best interest of this country because he's acting to consolidate more wealth for himself. We know that the UAE, that Qatar are pouring money into World Liberty Financial. We know that Donald Trump is

opening or inking real estate deals in foreign countries. And our foreign policy, because of his son-in-law, and Don Jr. and Eric. And so our foreign policy, taxpayer-funded foreign policy is being dictated by what's going to be to the best benefit of this family. Yes. And so again, I think that I get everything you're saying. And look, I also am not somebody who wants to tear government down. I want government to work, but I want it to work. Like, government can't just work so that we can watch different processes and norms and traditions block any progress. That's what government is about. Why do you think the Republicans are holding off on getting rid of the filibuster? This is the most extreme, the most craven faction. I've ever been. I've

ever seen running the government. They're not holding off on eliminating the filibuster. They've eliminated the filibuster for their priorities. They've eliminated the filibuster for confirming judges. They've eliminated the filibuster for passing tax cuts, which they do often, and they do it to the disproportionate benefit of millionaires and billionaires. So the filibuster is gone for Republican priorities. The filibuster exists for progress.

The filibuster exists for climate change legislation, for the Freedom to Vote Act, for the voting rights act. The filibuster on judges, not them, right? You know you did it. Yeah, I mean, Harry Reid did it. You seem to ignore that. Makes me want to grab that luxurious head of hair and say, don't you play those games with them. It was a little bit before my time, I will, I will admit.

But the reality is. Now you're playing that I'm an old man. Now you're playing this card. You're playing the gray hair. You know history. You're smart and you do your homework before your time. I can't take ownership, Chris, over what Harry Reid did. That was, I was, I was, I was, I was blackened out in college somewhere.

But I'm just saying that's why it happened. The Republicans said, don't do it. I understand that. And he did it to get around the recess appointments and then they did it for the Supreme Court. If it goes, it's got to mean something to you, BTC, that they don't want to lose it all together. It means that they know. It means that they recognize that Democrats will disproportionately benefit from being able to have no barrier to passing progressive legislation. I mean, what else do Republicans,

want to pass the Save America Act. I understand that they want to do that. First of all, there's not enough support for them to do that. But second of all, they know the risks of limiting the filibuster because then Democrats will pass a Muslim ban. They might pass some crazy corporate deregulations. But you have to remember, political gravity exists too. So they can pass bills saying that everybody has to pay Donald Trump a dollar when they say his name. That's all well and good, it might pass muster, but voters get a say in this stuff too. You can pass a Muslim ban. Voters get a say in this stuff. You can pass a blatant voter suppression bill. Voters get a say in this. Now, of course, with a voter suppression bill, that may have ramifications on their ability

to have a say on this. So that's a little bit of an outlier. But remember, unpopular policy will not redound to their political benefit. And they've got midterms coming up. They, you know, their voters go to the ballot box just as much as Democratic voters do. So yes, they can do that and they can, you know, think about this. Like, these people don't have good policy instincts and they don't have good policy positions. So sure, they would be, they would be unmoored in terms of, in terms of what they're able to do. But them passing legislation that mandates, you know, only fossil fuels used in energy is not going to be popular. Them passing legislation that says, you know, only white Christian men can vote is not going to be popular. I mean, they can go all the way

to the ends of the earth. But then why would you create a mechanism that allows the frenzy of the moment to dictate even when it goes against, uh, the common, the collective conscience? I mean, and it depends on the issue, Brian, you know, yes, there's a whole story of how fraught the Democratic situation was in the last election. And I definitely believe you guys lost it. He didn't win it. He had no business winning, let alone get in the most votes in the modern era. That was on the Democrats. And you should learn that lesson. I don't know that you have. Immigration, okay? You're on the wrong side of that issue in terms of the American people. Buy a lot. Okay. Overall taxation.

now it's shifting, but you've been on the wrong side. Culture issues, you've been on the wrong side. You're a bunch of canceling. You don't believe in live and what live. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you've been wrong on things. So, where the country is, is not always where you are, especially now. You know I don't buy in that the DSA is going to change us from capitalism. I have a terrible argument because they keep saying they want to change it. And so every time I. say, look, yeah, you're not going to get me with that bogeyman. People are more worried about the reality than what the remedy is. And then people say, Cuomo, it's right here. It's right here.

Get rid of capital. I know. I know it is. It's so stupid. I wish they would stop saying that. But you guys weren't always on the right side. You know, let me, let me propose something to you. Let's say the Democrats are able to pass one of their signature pieces of legislation, legislation that was so important, they presented it to the House of Representatives first. H.R. 1, the Freedom to Vote Act. One of the provisions in the Freedom to Vote Act was a provision banning partisan gerrymandering nationwide. When you have districts, when you have districts where they're not R plus 70 and D plus 80, what happens to Congress? And in turn, what happens to the willingness of those members of Congress to pass the most extreme legislation.

Yes. This would fix the principal issue that you're complaining about, which is, okay, now you've got a political party in power with only a simple majority threshold. Yes. You have to pass to change legislation. But if you have people there that didn't have to pander to the farthest fringes of both parties, and you can pass legislation that's going to help people. Yes.

I have a better provision for your HR1, by the way. because I don't think you guys would pass no gerrymandering. I think that you like it too, and you like it too. And this is about people in power and retaining power. Now, what you could do, and I think it's constitutional. Because by the way, your rule may not be constitutional. My rule may not be constitutional either. I like your rule, by the way.

I'm just not sure it would pass muster. Depends on the court, takes us to another problem. But I'll tell you what you should do. There should be a rule that political parties cannot control primaries. Now, the Supreme Court has ruled on this, and they have said, yeah, they can. They get to determine who's in their club, just like any other club. Ah, yes, but there is no country club running my democracy. and that's what makes this different.

And it wasn't argued in that case. What was argued in the case was Brian doesn't get to tell Chris who's allowed to be in his club. Chris gets to say who gets to be in his club. Okay, we agree on that. Okay, that's not the issue. Congress should pass a law,

Democrats should push, that the primaries cannot be closed. They have to be open. Or you do a top two, top four. Some type of ranked choice has to be involved. If you do that, I think that the American people win. I also think your party wins, by the way. But let's say it doesn't. Let's say it's neutral. That would be a huge fix for the problem we have right now, which is what? One third of the population has over 50% of the representation. And I think that other than changing the Senate, which we can't do, you're not going to change the electoral college. Need a constitutional amendment. Unless you have a constitutional convention. The national popular vote, the national popular vote interstate. compact. That could be a way to circumvent the electoral college. Right, but then the states have to do it. You know what I mean? Then you're asking for states, the compact is a nice way of saying hurting cats.

And states could pull out of it. See, that's the one problem with getting rid of the filibuster. So you pass HR1 and it's got both of these things in it. And it passes by a very slim majority. But now it's the law of the land. And then you lose in the midterms. They come in and they're reverses. that's the problem of no filibuster is that you are really now in whimsy mode on a regular basis. And I fear the proposals will get more and more extreme because you have more and more of a limited window to get things done. Well, I mean, you know, look, what was the most unpopular bill of the 2010s? It was the ACA. When Obama passed it, it led to a massive exodus of Democrats in the House and nearly cost Obama his presidency. Republicans have tried to repeal it 77 times and they've failed every time.

Never tried to improve it though. Never tried to improve it. Never tried to do a single damn thing to make it any better. And that's the space for you that people now recognize. Perhaps. But, but I mean, the risk with attacking legislation that is otherwise popular is that then you own taking it away. And even these people, look, they, they, even, even, even the biggest partisans in the House and the Senate want to be elected the next term. And I remember, I remember their efforts to destroy the ACA being a death knell for a lot of these Republicans. It was one in New Jersey. It's, it's been a long time. It's been like 15 years. But like, was his name McCarthy? I can't remember his name exactly. The bald guy. I think he actually

was in charge of one of the repeal and replace provisions. But in any case, he, you know, A lot of these people lost their job. So sure, you can immediately come into power and try and rescind what the other party just passed. But if what the other party just passed is popular, again, I'm going to go back to my initial thesis, which is political gravity exists for these people. Real Canadian Superstore has everything you need this back-to-school season. Save on lunchbox savers like Ziggy's sliced deli meat products for always $3.75. And get life brand pure Vita shampoo or conditioner for $8 each.

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