The Chris Cuomo Project - Ian Bremmer Explains the New World Disorder

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Ian Bremmer (President and Founder, Eurasia Group and GZERO Media) joins Chris Cuomo to break down President Trump’s 20-point proposal to end the war in Gaza and the geopolitical risks behind it. They examine Israel’s growing international isolation, the political pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu, and whether Hamas will accept a deal that could finally stop the fighting. Bremmer explains how the conflict fits into a broader “new world disorder” — where U.S. influence, global alliances, and regional power brokers are all shifting. He and Cuomo discuss what a real peace would require, how Trump’s approach could redefine America’s role abroad, and what this moment reveals about the fragile state of global power. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Support our sponsors: Get 15% off OneSkin with the code CUOMO at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Sign up for your $1 per month Shopfiy trial at http://shopify.com/chrisc Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is there going to be peace in the Middle East any time soon? What does it mean back here? Does Israel have a stranglehold on America? And if so, is it for bad reason? Or is it a real alliance? And what is happening in this country and our society in America? And is it going to get worse or is there better in front of us? Man, these are daunting questions.

I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. I have the man to answer these questions with a world view, a level of expertise, travel, and contacts that can never be matched by some bullshit comedian with a hoodie who saw something on Reddit. Ian Bremmer, check him out, okay? All of his work, all of his international efforts and organizations. This is a man that world leaders call on to find out what to think. So he is a gift in my life as a resource and someone who is ready to get after it. Ian Bremer, as always, thank you so much for being a gift to the people who are watching and listening. Chris, my friend, it's always.

the pleasure. I was looking forward to it when I saw it on my calendar. Help me understand a few things. First, where are all the people who want this to end, who call it a genocide? Why are they so quiet now instead of telling Hamas to take the deal? The first person I saw online, and I'm not a hyper online guy, in that category was Medi Hassan. And I will tell you that I thought that Medi came out immediately and said, hey, there are actually a lot of good things in this deal, and I hope it gets done. So I don't know if that's, I mean, I'm sure that people that are interested in pressuring Israel, a lot of them are less interested in pressuring Hamas. those aren't reasonable people, obviously. Reasonable people want peace, and that means compromise from both of the belligerents here.

And also reasonable people know that there has been lots of efforts where we've gotten close to peace, and it's never quite made it. So it's easy to bet that it's going to fail. But I think you and I and most right-thinking people around the world, and most global leaders, by the way, and the global leaders have been pressuring Israel a lot. I saw like the Canadian prime minister, the British prime minister, the Australian prime minister, the French president. I've seen from all of them say, this is a really important step forward. We really hope Hamas now accepts this. So maybe, I don't know, maybe those people matter more than the rando bots that show up and you're in my feet. They should, you're being facetious, they should absolutely matter more. But the voluability

of this is also relevant. Medi Hassan is an antagonist. It works well for him in this current climate. There's a difference between saying, I hope this deal gets done, and Hamas, you have to surrender. I have to hand over the hostages and let the Palestinian Authority reform and return.

You need to leave now to save this place. And he's not saying that. No one is saying that. And it makes me wonder if this is more about advantage than it is about peace. It's more about getting clicks than it is about peace. It's more about outrage and venting and fomenting than it is about peace. Well, look, two points here. First of all, President Trump gave a 55-minute speech at the United Nations General Assembly

it was one applause line he delivered in that entire speech, one. And it was where he said, this war in Gaza has to be over, and Hamas has to let go all that to release all of these hostages now. And there was applause across the room. And that was the same room that had all of those delegates from dozens and dozens of countries that then on Friday walked out before the Israeli Prime Minister started his speech. So, again, I think those people are important.

I think those people are important. But I accept that online, and particularly on social media, you don't get an awful lot of plaudits for being sensible. You just don't. For having a more balanced, you know, I gave a talk. Most of what I did was just private bilateral meetings and the like. but I did do one for Axios with, you know, sort of their leading foreign journalists. And I thought it was going to be a pretty good conversation, really smart guy, hour long.

And he started off just giving me all of these headline clicks about how useless the UN is and why do we have it at all? And I said, dude, this isn't a headline. We're having an hour conversation with all these people. you owe your audience better questions than that. And I'm not going to answer that. I'm going to tell them what the UN actually does, what accomplishes that you can't just do in five seconds. And, you know, it was, I get frustrated with that.

Doesn't trip the algorithm. Look, I am, look, first of all, you raised several good points. One, to put front and center of the audience right now is Ian is right. I am overvaluing the temperature. and tenor of mixed metaphors, but still, of the social media aspect of this dynamic. You are correct. Part of that is because I think its operative effect on leaders has become so pronounced, and I hope that that changes or that I'm wrong about it. And second, it is a mistake for me to do that, and it's part of what you're now talking about, which is what are we catering to?

And I think that even when we bring things up like, you know, it's not that the U.N. sucks. I didn't like that report that came out and called it a genocide. I thought the people are suspect. I thought the bases for it were suspect. And I think that hurt the credibility of the organization. And Secretary General Antonio Guitters refused to call it a genocide as a consequence of precisely that. That's right. He's like, unless the international criminal court comes out and says the genocide, they haven't actually made that ruling yet.

I'm not going to say it. Yeah, I thought that was very smart of him. But I am watching, you know, I'm looking at Duncan's book again, The Storm Before the Storm about the Fall of the Roman Empire. He's got a great podcast on it also. He's got another great podcast called Revolutions, which is really interesting for people in terms of what creates that alchemy of our true dissent and disruption within societies.

And I feel like that's what I'm seeing, Ian, is that we are on the way down. I have never said that in 25 years in this business. I've never said, oh, wow, I don't think this is a moment in time. I don't think this is just the swing of the pendulum in this silly binary system that we're in in America. I don't think that anything gets better here. I think that we are in a steady road down,

and a big reason for it is what we have allowed social media. Yes. Because we have allowed these people to have no responsibility, in developing platforms that monetize all of our worst instincts. And that's absolutely what they're doing. That's why Elon Musk tweets, the ADL hates Christians. That's what he tweets. The left is the party of murder.

If I said that at News Nation, I would get fired. If I said at right-leaning News Nation, trying to be fair, the overcorrection, I think, is to be a little right. I'm not, but that's the overcorrection, is I would be fired. If I worked for Time Magazine, and rightly so, by the way. Yes, I would be fired, not just to apologize, I would be fired. But those rules don't apply to the people with all the money and all the power. Yeah.

And that is, of course, a big part of the problem. I saw Elon, since we're going off on Elon, You know, the latest thing that I saw from him was that he said everyone should cancel Netflix because of what it does to kids. And then I someone underneath was like, well, so what do the kids, what should the kids be on? Obviously, Twitter, right? I mean, are you fucking kidding me? I know. I talk about something to boycott.

I actually told somebody today, and I'm thinking about it. I don't think it's responsible for me doing what I do to ignore anything that is being used by people. in this space of media that I'm in to make choices. I think me not being on Twitter would be a mistake for that reason. However, I am also going old school. You know, the reason I reach out to you as regularly as I do, what do you think of this? What do you think of that?

Is I just tap the people I trust and I'm very anti-Zyggeist because it's so increasingly absurd. And I think that absurdist dynamic is coloring what we started talking about here. The conflict in the Middle East with Israel, I think, is a great laboratory for the disruption of reason. And even on a simple level of like, okay, so what you're pissed about is this white oppressor is killing these brown people, specifically Muslim brown people. And you think because they're brown Muslims and because Israel is a white oppressor. Of course, Israel, you know, Jews aren't really white, and Israel is, you know, 20-something percent Arab citizens, almost all of whom are Palestinian extract.

But forget about the facts. It is seen as that. Okay, so if that's what bothers you, why doesn't it bother you in China when it is happening at such greater scale? Why doesn't it bother you in Syria? Why doesn't it bother you the way it was happening in Yemen and all these other places? Why doesn't it bother you when it's Christians in Nigeria or Boko Haram or why don't any of these things bother you? There are only two choices.

One is because you hate the Jews. I am very light on that as the ultimate explanation. I think the Jews get beat up, but that's not the driving thing. The driving thing is I have been conditioned to care about this by social media. And I have not been conditioned to care about this, to care about any of the other things. There's a lot to unpack in what you're saying, Chris, as there always is. First, let me give you one additional factor, not to say that they are mutually exclusive, but the fact is that Israel is the principal ally of the United States.

So the Americans are accountable for, responsible for, leading in, complicit with, pick your descriptor of all the stuff that happens in Israel and with the Palestinians. And therefore, by extension, the American people, voters, taxpayers are too. So in that regard, it matters more because the U.S. is directly involved in a way that they're not with the Chinese, they're not with Nigeria. They're not with Sudan. They're not with any of that other stuff. And that matters, especially in an America First environment where people, the people voted explicitly to say, stop all that stuff. Not off USAID. It may well be the USAID helps a whole bunch of people not to starve.

We don't care as much about that as we care about Americans. So stop it. Stop all the support for Ukraine because it's an ocean away. The Europeans can do it. But not when it comes to Israel. Okay? And that must mean there's something very special about Israel. They must behave in a particular way.

There must be a reason that we find that particularly valuable in a way that we don't about literally anything else. And there are a lot of people inside MAGA, as you know, the Tucker Carlson's and the rest, that are deeply uncomfortable with that. So I think that also plays. I don't think it's the principal reason, but I think it matters. And I think it's important for us to express that as well. The anti-Semitism is absolutely a thing, right? And the level of anti-Semitism that we saw in our country, in Europe, and around the world before October 7th, right, was already spiraling to a very great degree. There's no question.

And I think that matters, too. But it's also true that there's just been a radical transition. Israel has for a very long time been seen as not just uniquely consequentially obliterated by the Nazis. And we all say never again. And we don't say never again in the same way about the Armenian genocide, even though it happened. And there are lots of reasons for that.

But the whole world came together and said, damn it, like this will not stand. And, you know, the Jews were seen as the oppressed. and, you know, sort of the powerless and the weak, and they needed to be protected. And now, in the last couple years, we've actually seen that Israel is by far the strongest country militarily, technologically, the most capable in all of the Middle East. And it's put them in a position where they no longer are deterred even by Iran. They're no longer deterred by Hezbollah, which had been, had been by far the most powerful

non-state military actor in the world. And a lot of young people, you know, they stand up for the little guy. So suddenly, you know, you could make the argument that the Israelis were the little guy 30 years ago, 40 years ago, 50 years ago, however accurate or inaccurate that was, you can't really make that argument today. There's an effort to, there's an effort to say, hey, like if we stop fighting, it's the end of Israel, the way the Ukrainians say, if we stop fighting, it's the end of Ukraine. But it's not credible because Israel has like,

100 nukes, right? Because Israel can blow up all of their adversaries. And that's why brand Israel has taken such a huge hit. And the Israeli, I mean, cabinet members of Israel have told me this directly in the past weeks. Like, they're aware of how much brand Israel has taken a hit and they need to do something about it, which they now are, spending a lot more on social media and developing campaigns and the rest. How effective it will be in this environment. That's an open question, but all super, super important and interesting stuff. Support comes from one skin. Look, if you're going to put it on your body or in your body or both, you've got to have science behind it. Real science. Expertise. Not someone on

Instagram, okay? That's why I am very comfortable endorsing one skin. At the core is their patented OS01 peptide. Peptides are all the rage, but they've got to be the right ones, develop the right way, and that means you need to go with the right people. One skin. This OS01 peptide is the first ingredient proven to target senescent cells. That's the root cause of wrinkles. One skin is the first skin care company built on longevity science. They're patented OS01 peptide targets the cells that cause the visible signs of aging, helping your skin and scalp stay healthier, more resilient, now and as you age. For a limited time, try one skin and you get 15% off. All you got to do is use the code Cuomo at OneSkin.com. 15% off. Onskin.com. Use the code Cuomo. After you

purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Please show the Chris Cuomo project some love the sinister nature of israel's importance to america that's tucker candace all of the right wing cuckoos and the left wing cuckus and i don't always find these people to be cuckoo but selectively they can be cuckoo on this they agree right you got the left fringe and the right fringe agreeing that israel apac they have a good grip on America. It's not us having a grip on them. They have us money choked, and they are our masters. And that's why American leaders make such stupid decisions when it comes to them. Is that true? Well, I mean, the United States is the most purchasable of the G7 democracies,

right so it is certainly true that any organized group with money has the ability to like buy members of congress or rent them for their specific issues and that is true for the nRA and that is true for uh the lawyers lobby it's true for the police unions the tech bros of course big pharma right i mean big oil, crypto, particularly crypto in the last election, they actually provided the most money far more than pro-Israel lobby did. So, I mean, if you're going to make that argument, you should make it in the context of the nature of how consequential that money and that influence is compared to other things, which they never seem to do. I mean, Tucker Carlson doesn't do that at all for Qatar, where he's had a lot of, you know, sort of engagement and money. And,

support, and the cutteries and the Gulfies, in general, since they've become far wealthier, are much more willing to spend that money on branded media, on infotainment, on think tanks. And rest assured, this is not just charity, right? I mean, they want to make sure that they're getting their message out. So I don't think that pro-Israel causes have a unique grab on the United States, but certainly they have influence that they pay for. Of course they do. And the prime minister of Israel has made that very clear.

He wasn't born yesterday. It's also true that the Israeli government has an extraordinary amount of intelligence that they share with the United States. And that that intelligence on the Middle East is generally speaking of higher consequence and actionability. they are better at it than the United States is. So purely from a, who do you get good stuff from that is like important, filtered, human intelligence, technology, surveillance intelligence, the reality is Israel has been one of the most important allies

of the United States. Now, then you have the broader question of alignment of values and the fact that Israel has historic, historically been the democracy in the Middle East. And as you say, a democracy that is not just about Jews, even though Israel is a Jewish state, it is also about Arabs of Palestinian descent who live there as citizens in Israel proper, not the occupied territory. They vote. They have a party. They've been part of coalition government. I mean, it's not like they don't matter. And it's not like they're all leaving. But under the new Israeli prime minister, who's been there for a long time, not in Yahoo, you see that Israel is much less of a democracy today. They have done things to weaponize and politicize, for example, their attorney general, their judiciary, in ways that President Trump feels very aligned with, but are not aligned with American values, are not aligned with the political system.

And in this regard, you know, the need, the desire of the United States to be as close. to Israel no longer has that component of the stool. And over the long term, especially given the nature of the war in Gaza, Israel's asymmetric military capabilities and the staggering amount of death and destruction that's been visited upon two million Palestinians, many of whom are innocent civilians, many of whom are children, are the infirm, are the age. And that is getting out, right? That those are things that are making a majority of young people in America align more with the Palestinian cause than with the Israeli cause despite October 7th, despite that

terrorism, despite the fact that Hamas shares more in common with al-Qaeda than they do with a legitimate government. Do you believe that there is another nation that if they were in Israel's, position would stop while the enemy was refusing to surrender and still holding their people? I think that there are a lot of countries that would handle this very differently. And there are lots of ways that one can handle this differently. You framed it in a challenging way. Stop.

Stop sounds like you're doing nothing. That's it. No more fighting at all. That's not what everyone is talking about. I think that after October 7th, Israel had an outpouring of support from aligned governments all over the world, and the Israelis didn't have to go it alone. They could have actually said, we want a coalition of the willing. When Macron went over, they didn't want anybody to stop them.

Fight with us. They didn't want any stopping. They knew they could do it themselves. and they didn't want anybody putting their foot on the break until they got it to where they wanted to. And we know why. You know uniquely well. This was different for Israel. This scared them to the marrow. Not that they just got caught sleeping, which I believe. I don't believe they let this happen on purpose. I don't believe this was BB's plan. They were planning for a major incursion in the north against Hezbollah. They were not for this. They had fallen in love with peace.

And they had a lot of troops in the West Bank that they had moved from. Gaza border security, right? And they just weren't thinking about this. But the switch, and I consider the Israeli prime minister to be partially responsible for that, right? They just weren't thinking about, they weren't at that state of usual paranoia. And I'm just saying there are other countries that could have handled that differently. There are also other countries that aren't led by an individual who is under indictment, who is facing jail time.

Right. If something happens to him, if he's out of parliament. power, there are other countries that aren't in government coalition with religious extremist fundamentalists that believe in a greater version of their country that involves territorial expansion. So there are so many things that could have been done differently that wouldn't lead to a situation where the Saudis, who you thought you were going to normalize with Israel, the Saudis are saying this is a genocide. The Saudis, Muhammad bin Salman directly said this is a genocide.

Well, he would know. He would know what it looks like to kill people mercilessly because of what they are. When you've gotten it to that point, you've clearly lost a lot of credibility. And look, maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe credibility doesn't matter because if we're in a world where force and it's the law of the jungle is what matters, then the Americans and the Israelis and the Russians just went all over the place. Maybe that's what it is. But I don't think that's what it is.

I think that's too harsh a judgment of what the world looks like today. I think soft power does matter. I think legitimacy is important. I think you do need friends. And all of those things, I think, have been lost over the two years, almost two years now of this war. But what do you do? Look, first of all, you can always argue this lots of different ways, right? And I don't accept this, but if it were a point of debate, this would be clever.

The ratio. You think you see a lot of death here in Gaza. it's because we're showing it to you all the time, and you're seeing it in very stilted ways because they won't let real media in there, which is a huge mistake for the IDF. And I said that since October 7th. But World War II, the ratio was much worse. Our campaign in Iraq and Afghanistan, much worse. What we did after Pearl Harbor, much worse.

If, and then you get into the theoretical, so they are not killing in a way that we're we did and the world did in those other circumstances and in the theoretical, if this were us, we saw what we did after 9-11. And you can say, well, yeah, but that was wrong. We did what we did was wrong. Well, pretty clear. Yeah. It's not how the country felt at that time. And it's not even really how history has remembered it, even though we went into the wrong country for bad reasons for years and lost many, many, many more people. Look, I think that's part of why Trump won, the election. Yeah, I think so, too. Because he was the guy that said no more wars and that those wars were fought on the back of the poor and the disempowered in the United States, and they were angry about

it. Yeah, because I think people do remember that after 9-11, the Americans really shot the bed repeatedly. Yeah, I agree. But we had that righteous indignation on our side. But I'm saying that I hear that, and I understand that in a debate format, those are bad facts for the idea that this is somehow worse. But I don't think that that is the dispositive line of reckoning. I think the Dispositive line for reckoning, for me, subject to what you say in response, is this. I know why they didn't go with the coalition. They didn't go with the coalition because they knew they could get it done, and they wanted to have, and BB was driving this, and it is existential for him, not as a Jew and as an Israeli, but as a politician. That's right.

He's got big trouble. He was very Trumpy in his authoritarian moves, and they were ugly moves, and his society had rejected them, and he was in trouble. but they became distracted by the scariest thing to a Jew imaginable, which was October 7th. And they decided we are not going to let our friends let us not win again, like happens every time, where they let us defend ourselves and survive, but we can't win. This time, we're going to win. And that worked for six months. since then they've been stuck and not knowing what to do because and you know this also in israel

it is a consensus that this can't end as long as Hamas is there that it will happen again and now the iron dome won't save them from the next wave of violence which is the drones so if you don't eradicate it now and remove that threat it's going to happen almost as soon as you stop and in a way that the Iron Dome won't save. What do you think of that? I think that you're absolutely right as to the reasons, the many reasons why the Israeli Prime Minister refused to accept help, even though it would have been the best thing for his country long term,

and why he refused to stop after six months when it was clear enough already. You've blown up the leadership, and now you're losing international support. and why he's continuing to go and continuing to go and continue to go. And look, I really hope that Trump's deal supported by the Gulf, supported by the G7, and with the Israeli leadership accepting it, assuming that Hamas won't,

I hope that Hamas can find a way to support it because it would be the best possible thing. Well, why would they support it, Ian, if it means they're out? Well, it may mean they're out, but in principle, at least it means that some of them, them get to continue to live, which, I mean, in this environment where they've taken out your leaders, I mean, Israel has assassinated all the military leadership, right? They tried to assassinate the political leadership in Qatar, right? And they almost succeeded. So, I mean, if you're the

guy making the decision, look, I can't speak for Hamas's rationality. I have no idea what someone in that position thinks. It's alien to me. It's alien to you. But I'd like to hope for the well-being of the people in the region, Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, and Palestinians in the occupied territory that they can get to yes. Because, I mean, everything else is disastrous for everybody long term, right? That's where we want to get. But we're not there. And do I worry, but do I worry about, you asked about drones. You asked about drones. Yeah, I want you to answer that. long term. I want you to answer that. But fill in one thing. Why isn't the answer? Hamas says no. And then it's on the Arabs instead of the Jews. Okay. Then you go in there. You get rid of Hamas. You make it into somebody

who you want as a neighbor because you don't want that with Gaza right now. That's why you have that wall on the border in Rafa with Egypt, which is the most menacing wall I've ever seen in that region. And they say there are brothers. Yeah, you just won't let them in ever, not even now. But why don't why isn't that the alternative that okay if they say no then you do it there are millions now of course of Palestinians living as as refugees in jordan destabilizing with no right of return and the Egyptians understand that Israel at least the Israeli government as it stands today would be delighted to make that kind of a problem Egypt's problem now the deal that has been worked out will mean that security and reconstruction will be on the back of regional partners.

They're going to fund it, that they're going to provide soldiers, they're going to provide securities, not going to be the Palestinians, they're not going to have their own policing. They'll have their own governance, but that's very different armed forces. Absolutely not. No one is going to tolerate that. My point here, leaving aside all the civilians that are getting killed, is that Israel is radicalizing a generation of Palestinians and Americans. And Americans. And Americans. And Americans and also, and Europeans and all the rest. And I, I, for the life of me, I don't understand how that is better than, um, then the question of 2000, they guess, Hamas fighters that are, you know, still boxed up in Gaza City.

I mean, do I want all the Hamas fighters either dead or in prison? Of course I do. By the way, I also want all the Israelis that are guilty of war crimes. I want them to be held responsible for what they've done, too. That's not going to happen. So there are lots of things that you and I would like to see that aren't going to happen. But I know that what's the most damaging thing is as the war continues, you're going to end up with a lot more violence. You're going to end up with a lot more radical hatred.

of Palestinians towards Jews who are not responsible for this. And who's going to get hurt? Civilians in a bus bomb. Civilians in, you know, sort of a drone attack. Of course that's going to happen. So the longer this goes on to benefit the Israeli prime minister, the worst is.

Now, the one thing I really would like to see for someone who desperately doesn't deserve it is I want some kind of amnesty for BB so that he can leave power and it doesn't mean that he and his family are going to jail. Not because he deserves it, but because, you know,

the fact is you've got to find a climb down that doesn't mean that he's going to fight tooth and nail to stay in no matter what. I see what happens in Latin America when countries understand that your leaders are not just voted out, but they lose everything. They lose their money.

they lose their families, they lose their lives. And that means that these countries end up becoming disastrous kleptocracies. And I worry that in the United States, as our own institutions become weaponized, that we create an environment where Trump has to hold on for everything, because if he loses, that's it for him and his family. They're going to go to jail, right? I mean, Peter Navarro, that's what his new book is all about. I went to jail so that you didn't have to.

couldn't make it any more explicit than that. You know, the Americans, we don't take subtlety well. You've got to really hit us hard, you know, with these damn book covers. But, you know, they are convinced. And I don't think it is equivalent what Trump is doing to weaponize American institutions with what Biden did. I don't think it's equivalent. But I do believe that there were steps taken in the Biden administration that were not

aligned with rule of law and that now can be used as an excuse for Trump to go, all that much farther. And we know how this ends, Chris. It ends without having free and fair elections. It ends with having something that looks more like a one-party state. And that's not sustainable. And that's not the America that you and I grew up in or that love and care for and would fight for. How real is the threat to Israel now that the Iron Dome is not designed to stop what we see happening between Ukraine and Russia. And it is so easy for terrorists to get these kinds of devices by the hundreds and send over in swarms. How real is the threat to the United States? I mean, it's not like Israel's unique in that regard. The White House is deeply concerned about

this. I was recently with a group of chief security officers from the top companies all over the world, they're terrified about this stuff. They don't know how you can have a rally in an open air stadium and not have a drone swarm that comes in and kills lots of people. When I asked, why hasn't that happened yet in this environment? They say, we don't know. We think we've been lucky. I really don't like that answer. Me either. No, luck is not a strategy. And so, yeah, the technology is getting more substantial. Look, Trump gives his speech at the UN, almost in our speech, and most of that speech will be remembered for his excoriation of multilateralism and the

UN, which, I mean, if only they had given him the contract to put the mahogany in and the marble in, he would be, oh, what an amazing escalator and the whole thing. So, I mean, you know, sometimes you're pennywise and pound foolish on this shit. But people will forget that Trump actually called on the United Nations to participate in a new American program to try to ensure that we don't have spread of bio weapons and that we use artificial intelligence. He said, and I want the UN to play a role in that. I mean, when you've got Trump saying the UN needs to do something else, you know it's a serious problem. Right. Right.

So we don't have answers to asymmetric development of. inexpensive warfare in the hands of non-state actors. We don't have that. Yeah. And, you know, one of the Palantir guys was saying that AI is the answer and that the new weapons or the weapons that allow you to control other people's weapons. And that that's what all the cyber war is about. You know why the Palantir guys saying that?

Because they're in that business. Shocker. But by the way, I mean, they're already made men. Only a fool like me doesn't buy their stock because as soon as Elon introduced, them into Doge and made them one of the primary mechanisms and basically integrated them as, you know, an adjunct to government. Palantiers all over the government now. The Trump administration loves them. AI is the future. They're leading that way. I mean, you know, they're like, they're going to be like the equivalent of like the, you know, the railroad guys.

Oh, the drones that are replacing security guards and are being used by the NYPD and the San Francisco force to be first responders before the police can get there, those companies are growing 30, 40, 50% a year. But I don't invest, right? And the reason I don't is because I think it would immediately undermine my ability to have a conversation like this with you. Right. Because suddenly I have a financial interest in the success of that company. I'm no different then than all the guys going on CNBC. No use. Not useful. I'm with you until my next point, question and topic for you, which is you might as well. That's a very short time for you to be with me, Chris.

That's like literally five seconds. You might as well invest. I might as well invest because it's over. Even though you are an expert and a thinker and, in my opinion, a philosopher, by anyone's definition, it is over in our democracy. for any kind of premium on truth or eloquence or intelligence. And we are now in an age where a comedian in a hoodie can be in a box next to you and be like, yeah, I don't think he knows what he's talking about about this stuff. You know, I read a book, yeah, right?

Yeah, like that guy can now be like, well, what do you mean? Here's what happened in 1887 that you're not talking about. And he is now on equal footing. And the guy goes into a bar. Yeah, right. A horse walks into a bar, bartender says, why the long face? Exactly. The question is, how fucked are we here at home?

When people are looking around and saying, all right, so the democracy is dying. So we may not have a transition of power this time. This guy may not leave. There may be civil war. Listen to Hegsef. Look at all his guys. Look what they're doing with the currency. Look what's happening.

What's happening? All right. So this is it. This is the beginning of the end. It's all going down. This is what we get for not cherishing what we had. Even if you believe that, and you don't fully believe that, right? You're worried about it.

You don't fully believe it. You're hoping that it's not the case. But even if you fully believe it, it's irresponsible for you to say, well, it doesn't matter. Because when I started my career traveling to the former Soviet Union at that point behind the Iron Curtain and East European countries, and the captive nations, the republics that were their own peoples, like the Ukrainian Republic, didn't have a country, the Baltic republics.

You know, my friends back then, they were honest people. And they were dissidents, right? And some of them were well-known, and some of them were completely unknown. They were the people that would have been journalists if you were allowed to be a journalist. But that still made them respected. That made society function,

even in authoritarian regime, you know, your ability to have voice, even Solzhenitian in the gulag was able to show that they could not take away his humanity. So, you know, you tell me even in the worst situation that what I say and what I do doesn't matter, I'm not going to leave the country, just like I'm not going to leave Twitter. I mean, they're going to have to arrest me

if that's what it comes down to, I'll be a dissident. I mean, it doesn't matter. The end of the day, you're responsible for being authentic to yourself. I can't be responsible for what other people do.

You go off and say something stupid tomorrow, Chris, you're a friend of mine. I'll send you a DM. You and I have done that with each other before on a couple of occasions, right? We respect each other. It's all, bueno. But I can only be responsible for me.

And I can't be responsible for my political system. As much as I love it, as much as it pains me when we fuck up. And so that means I have to keep doing what I'm doing. And if people want to listen to it, God bless. If I'm making a difference to folks that follow me, that's great. If there are world leaders that actually really want to know what the hell is going on or trying to be accountable and don't want World War III and want these institutions still stand up, I'll talk to them

too, as I do. And that that matters. But ultimately, like, I'm the one that when I fall asleep and I got to be comfortable with what I did that day, you know, that's all that matters. I get it. I applaud it. And I need it. So the follow is, when you wake up in the morning, what are your expectations of what you're going to learn that day about the state of American democracy and society? Where do you think we are heading? And what are the variables? So I'm going to start in a place that you don't expect. because I want to play off of what we just discussed. I was, this morning, the first thing I thought about was, because it was on NPR in the morning

with my alarm, was all of this Heg-Seth stuff. Increasingly in the morning, I try to think about one or two things that I am not bothered by, that are driving people crazy. and I'm like, eh, I don't really think this thing matters. Like the cuttery plane, remember where the cutteries gave that plane? Everyone was like $400 million. Wasn't a $400 million plane. Couldn't sell that plane $40 million.

I think like they tried to sell for $250 million. It wasn't even going for that, right? And we know it would take years to actually reconfigure. And Trump's never going to fly it as president and probably never going to happen. People went crazy, right? I'm just not going to worry about that. And the headset thing, I decided I wasn't going to worry about it. So I write my update on Monday.

And people write me back and like, how come? come you didn't write about that? And I actually said, well, you know, Hegseth, right, who's not the sharpest tool in the cabinet, right? I mean, like, he's clearly in better shape than many cabinet members. And I understand that's important, right, to be in the military, but he's not the sharpest tool. He screwed up a couple times, right? Like, I mean, he was the guy that was truly implicated in Signalgate, not Mike Waltz. Right. It was his stupidity, like, I'm going to show off that I got all this information. I'm going to send it out, right? It shouldn't have been doing that. And then he was the guy that when Trump wanted a really big parade, like North Korea

style, China style, and then like, Hague Seth's responsible. Prade sucks. Literally sucks, right? I mean, like, Trump was bored. He's like, ah, this is, these guys are mailing it in, right? So Higset knows he's got to do something to kind of impress the boss. So what's he doing? He's like calling them all in from all over the world. They're going to look cracker Jack, and they're not going to be any DEI. There's not going to be any woke. There's not any men in dresses. He's the only one with sideburns.

The rest of them are going to be high and tight, baby, right? And I mean, like, he's going to put that on. And he's going to invite Trump. And struck me as something. Like, there was someone that wrote about the fact that, like, this was what happened in Nazi Germany. And then I think it was, J.D. Vance was, like, cool story, bro. Or maybe it was Hegset that wrote that. Whoever the hell it was.

I was not bothered by that. And it was a conscious choice. There are some things that I'm not bothered by because I know that I have no expertise. It's not my lane. And so I'm going to let other people, I assume that there are Ian Bremmer's in other fields, right? I'm not the only one.

So I am the Ian Bremmer of international relations. There are others out there, Fareed Zakaria, for example, there are others that I really love and respect that have devoted their lives to understanding the world. Kukiyama. I got a whole list of those people, right? And we are good to the extent that we keep doing that. We build our networks. We do our research. We travel the world. And we talk about shit we know about. But like when people got really upset about transgender issues, there's no one

transgender in my family. So I don't even have an axe personally. I haven't spoken to doctors about it. I don't know the state of the medical technology. I really don't know much about the issues at play, I'm going to let other people get worked up over that. So the level of stuff that on a given morning that I'm really worked up over is comparatively small. Well, I think also that's a good coping mechanism. It helps. Because, you know, whether it was Bannon or it's Trump or it's both or it's just circumstance, these guys flood the zone in a way I've never had to contend with. And it's a strategy. Absolutely. Yeah, and if it is a strategy, good on them because it fucking works.

But, and it's made for social media. You know, I reached out to this influencer today and said, hey, when you put out that clip of this guy playing gotcha with this lawmaker on a tangential issue that really wasn't even what they were talking about, what did you think that was going to get you? Like, where does gotcha get you? Like, why would you focus on it that way? And the influencer did not remember putting out the clip. And it was like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I was like, well, here it is. It's from, you know, your page.

And it reminded me that Trump is perfect for the social media age. And I'm not saying it's why we have Trump. I believe the Democrats and grievance in America that they misunderstood and lost their touch with is why we have. Trump and this phase, but it is perfect for social media because you can't stay focused on anything. And it's all one line and no context and just keep putting shit out there, keep putting shit out there. And so here we are now. Nothing really ever gets resolved. Nothing really gets, even immigration. I mean, if you're going to pick one thing that Trump was riding like a show pony, it was build a wall. Is the wall finished? No, not really, but it wasn't really

that important. Legal immigration, nothing done. Not a legislative priority. Never going to happen. Tariffs. Is he even making deals anymore? I don't know. Now the farmers are starting to chirp because they're getting beat up. It works perfectly, but I also am really worried. I'm really worried, not about Nazis. I'm not worried about Nazis. Or talking about his agency, right? that the strategy that I have is that I'm going to define the things that will matter to me. Right. And the problem we have is that the media companies and the political leaders or political partisans and the algorithms are defining what matters for a lot of people.

And those things don't actually affect them. Whether or not you have like 10 people in the country that are transgender athletes that are participating somewhere, that doesn't actually affect. the vast majority of American voters. But if you allow other people to define for you what matters, then you're going to be aggravated and alienated all the time. And particularly because, you know, it's very important for the social media companies, right, for you not to have agency.

It's very, because you're the product. You're not a voter. You're not a consumer. You're not the citizen. You're a product. They are making money off of you. and your data, if you have agency, that you're actually subverting their business model. And if there's anything that you and I can do as citizens, it's we need to actively subvert

their business model because their business models are not actually compatible with representative democracy, right? So it's very important that when I wake up in the morning, you know, who I am is what's defining what I'm going to be concerned about. And that's part of why the real answer to Elon saying, hey, take your kids off of Netflix, what should they be on instead? The answer is none of this stuff. Right. Certainly not his. Talking to their families, they need to be playing ball outside. They need to be doing stuff that will connect them with their fellow human beings. Support comes from Shopify. Let me tell you something. Running a business is not easy. I know because I suck at it. But here's what I've learned. That it's not so much the business. It's the

business behind the business that helps you monetize what it is that you do, the service or the good. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, Mattel, Jim Shark, a lot of startups, Shopify is the reason that they get up and they get going. Why? You get to start with your own design studio. Hundreds of ready to use templates. Shopify can help you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. I want to use it for free agent gear to get you to wear your independence. So you can use Shopify to accelerate your content creation.

Packed with helpful AI tools, write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. Shopify is your commerce expert. They have world-class expertise and everything for managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. So you've got to be ready to succeed and then you've got to be ready for Shopify. Turn your big business ideas into a k-ching. Shopify on your side will make the difference in dollars and cents. Sign up for your $1 a month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash Chris C. Where? Shopify.com slash Chris C. Shopify.com slash Chris C.

You know, this is where America gets in trouble, which is where it winds up being on you to make the change. You know, the obesity, the intellectual gap, the manufacturing gap, you know, when we leave it to the individual, which there's something very romantic about that and empowering about that, that, you know, you do you. Nobody in America, live and let live, you do you, you know. Yeah. And I take it. We really do need help and guidance. And I don't like saying that because I don't like the idea of government, you know, marshalling that kind of power in society.

I do believe in all the government you need, but only the government you need. Totology, though it may be. But that's where also the, that's where the family comes in. It's where the church comes in. It's where communities come in. Yeah, but I don't know that those things are working a lot of the time. I know, but it's also where towns come in and cities and stuff. States, people think the government, they think the federal government. And yet, you know, when you look at mayors and governors across the country, much more of those people, red or blue, are technocratic and oriented towards helping their people. I mean, when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, you compare what, you know, Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah had to say, which was the message we all needed to hear. Compare that to what Donald Trump had to say, which was a message that did not merit the office.

that he was speaking from. A hundred percent. That is the point. So we need leaders, but we don't have federal leaders right now. We do have leaders. And we're not spending enough time with the leaders we have. I think that that is a very good point. And we keep seeing them, like, one-upping themselves in a battle to the bottom.

Like, I didn't understand why my friends on the left didn't understand. didn't understand that the phrase, but at the same time, had no place in a discussion about Charlie Kirk's murder. Charlie Kirk's murder was a full stop. This is wrong. We don't do this. Not only is it illegal, it's wrong, okay? Yeah, but at the same time, what he was saying,

and I would say to them, no, no, not at the same time. At a different time, I don't agree with that during a school shooting. That's the time to discuss why these things keep happening because we do nothing about it. This is not that time because it doesn't matter what he was saying unless he was saying something that was specific and imminent to the destruction of the country that was going to happen the next day, there is no legal justification or moral justification. And they don't get it. And they resist it.

I agree with that. But when the president of the United States. says that it is the left that is responsible for all political violence and imputes that before you have a shooter or a motive, then you've already thrown that away. I know. I've thrown it completely away. The messaging that is most, I grew up in the projects. You know this. When I blame people, I put most accountability on the most powerful, most accountability on the wealthiest that have the most influence. Those are the people I blame first. And so it starts.

It starts with the president. It has to. It starts with the wealthiest person in America. Heck, on the planet, it has to. And then after that, you can go to the second-tier leaders and the second-tier oligarchs. But start with where the problem... Yeah, but he is not built for that.

And that's not an excuse. That's a reality. And he's going to be gone. My concern is the guy who follows him, and it will be a guy, is going to be actually worse because Trump is not what they describe him as. This guy does not have the vision, the purpose, the intellectual construct to be the boogeyman that they are saying he is. I've been incredibly impressed with how much Trump has been able to do with his team that is very loyal to him and very consolidated. and his team includes the whole party leadership at this point,

not just the cabinet, in 10 months. So I am not yet ready to spend a lot of time thinking about post-Trump when you are only 10 months into Trump. I'm saying I've never heard anything that is suggestive to me of anything about him wanting to stay beyond this period. And I'm just saying I just feel we're accelerating in a bad direction because we don't have the leaders, we are all grievance, we are all outrage, and I'm watching it make fortunes in the media, that I watch people who were already kind of significant,

who now are independent, but completely dependent on social media and what works there, and they are outrage machines. That's all they are. Maybe they're playing for the right, maybe they're playing for the left. but it is all outrage all the time. So, Chris, I'm going to take you somewhere slightly orthogonal, but address this, which is I see lots of places where the response is not outrage.

And it is outside the United States. It is the 7.5 plus billion people and their governments who are all like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We don't want World War III. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we need the UN and the IMF and the World Bank. We need rule of law. And so we need trade. We need to have access to talent.

We need visas. I mean, the Chinese, we're going to spend a lot on visas. We're going to massively step up ice. What do the Chinese do? We're going to make it easier for the top talent to come to China, right? So what I see happening is other countries around the world trying to create resilience, trying to improve their defense, trying to improve their trade relations with other countries, trying to make sure that their rule of law kind of works,

all of those things so that what happens in the United States doesn't bring everything down. Now you see that when you say orthogonal, so when you're saying that like orthogonal for you guys means at a right angle, but when you say that, is it other than China? Because China, of course, is doing that because they're preying on our demise.

Yeah, but Brazil. I mean, you know, they're getting hit really hard by the Americans for something that has nothing to do with the trade balance. It's just because Trump is unhappy about their Supreme Court going after Bolsonaro through their own judicial and legal process. And so Brazil is now like, okay, we've got to step up and get this Mercosur EU trade deal done as fast as possible. It was dead in the water before that. And they're reaching out to India. They're reaching out to China.

And they're reaching out to Mexico and Canada bilaterally as opposed to through the U.S.MCA process, right? The Europeans are spending far more on defense. The Germans are really stepping up, but they're also saying, okay, how do we make sure that we can, get critical enablers built inside Europe in case we can't count on the Americans, in case the Americans could shut down their chips if they don't like the way we're engaging with them. We can't have that kind of influence coming from a predatory U.S. that we can't count on. So I'm seeing that kind of behavior happening everywhere. So while the Americans are responding with this escalatory outrage, other countries around

the world are saying, we don't want to fight, we're not going to escalate. We know you guys are really powerful, but we're going to try to create a more resilience. We're going to try to keep these institutions. We don't want to have these huge fights because we, and at the end of the day, I know that, you know, America first is what we're all about, but actually we're human beings first. Actually, the most important affiliation we have is with our common humanity on this tiny little ball. And most of the people on a tiny little ball are not oriented towards more and more outrage and escalatory cycle every moment of the day. That's super important, right? We are not modeling behavior for the rest of the world,

right now. That's a good thing in a way that we were modeling behavior for the rest of the world back in 1989 when the wall came down. And at that point, that was really useful. I accept the analysis and I appreciate it. And I'm trying to think on one level, on an ecumenical level, that's good. On a America first level, still good. Well, but hold on, it could still be good. Here's white. So they don't need us as much. They're doing their own thing. You don't have to give them as much money. You're not the world's through pocketbook and all that. Okay, now then there's the main level. Well, that's actually very frightening because it goes along with Duncan's understanding of the storm before the storm, which is we built this system of geopolitics for

a reason. Americans have wanted the rest of the world to be dependent upon them. It was worth the money. And aligned with us. Absolutely. It was worth the money because they were our trade partners. They were subservient. They needed us. They wanted to come here. We were on the ideal. And I believe that that's dying. And not just because you just said in a way that it is being replaced. But what does it mean for us? And what happens here? We're talking, you know, right now it's, yeah, we're going to bring back manufacturing. No, we're not. No, we're not. And not the way we're thinking about it. Like making cars. We have a services economy. We have a knowledge economy. We're not bringing back a 20th century economy. But we're not educating people for it.

Yeah. So we're not educating people for it. We are investing in it. But that is a very, selective class of people, right? That's the tech bros and who they bring in and cherry pick, but it's not what we're designed for as a society. Not yet. We don't even talk about it. And it makes me wonder what stops us from accelerating in the wrong direction. And I don't think it's just, we're not just a new Trump away or the opposite of Trump away. I think it's way deeper than that? Yeah. Yeah, this is not the result of one electoral cycle. Trump is the principal symptom. He's the principal beneficiary, but he's obviously not the cause. You and I have talked about various aspects of this over many, many years now. And so, no, the challenge is much deeper.

The challenge is that the United States increasingly, the Americans increasingly don't know what the country stands for. They don't actually believe in the system or the leaders. And when you lose that legitimacy and when you allow people to actually believe, as Trump said, that the enemy, the principal enemy is the enemy within,

and everyone agrees on that, they just disagree on which side that actually is. That's not sustainable, right? It's not sustainable. That will not lead to a country that you would want to be in and thrive in the future. That's a country that's beginning to tear itself apart. And it will lead to more Charlie Kirk's.

It will lead to more, you know, people taking the law into their own hands, more vigilantism, which is incredibly misplaced, which is the opposite of rule of law, which is exactly what America has stood against, at least in its own system, since it's founded, you know? That's, we won the ability for the people that first, the colonists that escaped repression to be able to make their own lives. And that is, you know, okay, it didn't apply to women, didn't apply to black people. I get all, well, it didn't apply to even people, didn't own property to begin with. But still, those principles at that time meant something fundamental.

And now a lot of Americans, and I fear increasingly a majority of Americans really aren't convinced by that anymore. I agree. or at least they don't know how it manifests or they don't see it outside of their own life. As soon as you get into public life and what everything else is, it all seems very messy. And it seems that the majority is disconnected because it's almost, it's toxic to their existence to take it on. So you have the few dominating the many right now. Now, I believe social media is the focal point. point, but I also believe that I am on the wrong side of the debate of what to do about it

because I can win the debate very easily and not just, you know, in a silly facile way, but regulations of speech, I don't want anything to do with that. Okay, well, then what do you do? So then I say, well, I want to even the playing field, though, so that the people, I don't believe what we said in 1996. I don't believe Section 230. They didn't just build the stadium. They built Thunderdome and they curate the content. They amplify the content. They monetize the content. Even if they're not writing the content, somebody else makes the content who writes it. They decide what happens with that content. That's right. So I believe they are publishers just as

much as my boss doesn't write my monologue. I believe that they promote something algorithmically. Yes. Then they are responsible for it. And I think you can start by saying that only human beings can be verified. Bots cannot. It should be illegal to verify a bot. You should not be able to make money.

A bot should not, a fake account should not be able to pay $10 a month to get a star to be algorithmically verified, number one. Number two is that if you, if someone wants to post something and it's hateful and it, you know, is against the terms of service, you shut it down. It's not against the terms of service. You leave it up. Plenty of stuff that's hateful can be left up. But if you are promoting it algorithmically, you are responsible for that. In the same way that if you and I have a phone call and we're talking about assassinating somebody, the phone company is not responsible for that.

You and I are. But if the phone company then takes that conversation. and promotes it to all people they think might be interested in extremist violence, the phone company is suddenly responsible. That, of course, they are. So do not tell me that these social media companies aren't responsible. And the governments around the world, authoritarian governments are very good at finding individual accounts that are threatening to them

and telling the social media companies, you de-platform those people, or we will shut you down. Turkey has done it. India has done it. A whole bunch of countries that are not as free and fair as the Europeans, the Americans, Canada. And those democracies need to start focusing on the accounts that are a threat to them because they are promoting things that are antithetical to their interest and say, you can't promote those. And we'll shut you down if you do. It's that simple. So what does it look like? You remove Section 230, you have new legislation. Do we have to develop a sophistication

within our government where they can have review of algorithms. I'm going to look at your algorithm. I'm going to be able to tell what you're amplifying, Elon, and you are amplifying these ideas that we know are untrue. Like, for instance... So I'm not a tech specialist, but my understanding is that you don't need that. My understanding is that there's lots of ways to determine

which accounts are being amplified, which are being throttled. And certainly it's easy to tell whether or not an account is acting like a human being or not. Well, no, that part's easy. The bot versus a person, I'm with you. But I think that it's in terms of what they're amplifying, what becomes a hashtag, you know, what trends, what gets put in your for-you feed. That's what they're figuring out on the terms of what's most provocative because that's where people, so you've got 40% of the S&P 500 are in the attention economy. they want the most provocative shit okay uh Elon wants the most provocative shit that's why he says

provocative shit the other 60% want the ads next to that stuff so you'd have to be able to it's not just independent individual counts i think that's the easier part i think the harder part is how you negotiate the ideas that he's putting out that the left that the adel hates christians Okay. That to me is way over the line. It would get me fired immediately if I were to say it. I think Jews have a problem with Christians because they just said that Christian identity is a hate movement. It is a hate movement. The FBI said it in 1986. It's not Christians. It's this fringe group. I would get fired. To me, that is what needs. to be attacked, that he is amplifying that for profit in a way that no other media platform is allowed to. Yeah, well, TikTok will be about, is about to be. And let's also keep in mind that when Trump had his phone call with Xi Jinping, finally, there are all sorts of issues between these two countries. You've got precursor chemicals on fentanyl. You've got critical

mineral supply change. You got semiconductors for AI and on, on, no, no, no. There's one thing that Trump wanted to make sure that he got done in that call, and that was, wants an agreement on TikTok. Why? Because he understands the power of having politically aligned people supporting him, controlling and promoting the algorithms on that space. And that is, again, obviously not going to help our democracy. No.

And that's the problem. But see, then is the answer really to not do what I'm saying? And to keep it as free and unchallenged as possible because that's how you get the most ideas out there that aren't being shaped by the power, which is the sell on it right now. But look at what it's doing to us. Yeah. I think that if you could, if you can actually get rid of the bots, which is such a huge percentage of what's actually promoting this stuff algorithmically, you'd get rid of a big part of this problem. So many of the people that you think you're engaging with aren't actually people. and as AI models improve, that problem becomes exponentially greater,

have to deal with this before that happens. Yeah, I agree. A buddy of mine, I'll leave you with this little anecdote. And Ian, thank you so much, man. You're so fucking smart and worldly and basic, and I appreciate you. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for being my resource. No, thank you, man.

It's really great talking to you. Buddy of mine gets a call from his daughter in college. Um, uh, dad, uh, car broke down, uh, ran out of gas. He's guys trying to help me. Um, he's going to take me this place. He's got a tow service. Tose service is come in when his buddy runs it. It's great.

Raleigh Durham. Um, I need the credit card though, uh, because I got to pay for the toe. And, um, I don't have, um, the, the card number. Mom never gave it to me, whatever. And he's like, gee. Gosh, you don't have a credit card. No, let me get my credit card. And as it's happening, his wife walks in laughing.

It was like, Cheryl just told me the funniest thing that happened. And he was like, Cheryl just told you. I'm talking to her right now. Wasn't her. Wasn't her. It was AI. Yeah. And it scared.

By the way, right now, me, Mr. Multiple trips into war zones, all kinds of death. it gives me the tingles now. Well, fortunately, this is not a problem for young people because they don't take phone calls. Well, that's true. But I'm saying that's how good it's getting. Absolutely.

And we've got to deal with it. Ian Bremer, thank you for saying the best thing that we needed to hear. Before anything else, you're a human being, and it begins with you and what decisions you make for yourself. Okay, be good, Matt. God damn, gave me the chills. Doesn't it give you the chills?

I mean, all of it gives me the chills, but I just... We got to talk more about where we're heading. Because it seems to me that we're all battling about, like, the course and missing the destination of where we're going. And that's why I wanted to talk to Ian, to get that world perspective, to get the understanding of history. and past, meeting present, and what it means there and what it means here. So hopefully it was the brain food for you that it was for me. And I thank you for subscribing and following. Checking me out at News Nation, 8 p and 11P every weekday night, Eastern.

I got to tell you, it is hard to be philosophical, to be expansive, to be open in an atmosphere, year, specifically social media where everything is so narrow and tight. It's all outrage. And that's what's selling. And that is what is made to sell. It's really tough. It's tough to keep doing what I know is the right thing for me and the best thing for us. What do you think? Let's get after it. Thank you.