The Chris Cuomo Project - Inside a Russian Prison: Paul Whelan Tells His Story

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Paul Whelan (Marine Corps veteran and wrongfully detained U.S. citizen) joins Chris Cuomo to discuss his more than five years in a Russian prison on espionage charges, his fight for freedom, and what his experience reveals about U.S. diplomacy and Putin’s Russia. He details the conditions he endured, the emotional toll of being left behind while other Americans were freed, and the broader implications of wrongful detainment. Whelan also shares his perspective on Russia’s justice system, diplomatic negotiations, and what needs to change to better support Americans held abroad. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com GoFundMe to help Paul Whelan integrate into a new life: https://gofund.me/43bff09c Support our sponsors: Cozy Earth Surprise your Valentine / Love with Cozy Earth. Get up to 40% off at cozyearth.com/CHRIS with my code CHRIS. iRestore Give yourself the gift of hair confidence this February. For a limited time only, our listeners get $625 off their iRestore Elite when you use code chris at iRestorelaser.com Factor Eat smart with Factor. Get started at FACTORMEALS.com/cuomo50off and use code cuomo50off to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. Oracle Right now, Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in HALF if you move to OCI. For new US customers with minimum financial commitment. Offer ends March 31st. See if your company qualifies for this special offer at Oracle.com/CCP Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey Spotify, this is Javi. My biggest passion is music, and it's not just sounds and instruments. It's more than that to me. It's a world full of harmonies with chillers. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. You think you could make it five years or so in a Russian prison? I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project.

Paul Whalen went for a wedding to Russia, got scooped up, called a spy, called some kind of military big shot, and was just held and toyed with. How did he keep his head together? How did he keep himself safe? And imagine what it was like to feel forgotten, to watch a big shot WNBA player

who had actually done something wrong, not worthy of being detained the way she was, but Brittany Griner go in, all this media outrage, and her go home, and you still stuck in a work camp, sitting there day after day, week, month, year, you don't speak the language, and you have no idea that the next promise will ever be real. Paul Whelan has not done a lot since he got out.

He's home, and he wanted to talk to us and share what it was like, how he handled it, and how he got home and what you need to know. Paul Whelan in his own words right now. Paul Whelan, it is a great honor. I'm so happy that you're home and living your life again. When we got word that you would be part of the swap, August 1st, 2024, I was eight days before my birthday. And, you know, once you're in your 50s and beyond,

you don't really care about your birthdays, but that made it a really special occasion. What does it mean to you to be back in America? Can you believe it all the way through your bones? Well, Chris, thanks for having me here. It's great to be back in America. Can you believe it all the way through your bones? Well, Chris, thanks for having me here. It's great to be home. It's great to be in the United States. It's a first world country.

We have the best of everything available. There's nothing like this. I'd said that I spent five and a half years in a third world country and that's really what it was. So being able to get online and do something like this is incredible. You know, visiting friends and family, incredible. Just everything I've done in the last couple of months,

it's just amazing. It's amazing. So you remind me, you sound like, remember the Jefferson's TV show, we're moving on up to the East side, to the deluxe apartment in the sky. But it's not just that. Deluxe apartment.

In the sky. Not only did you get to move to a better place, but you're leaving out the big part. You weren't there by choice. And they were making it really obvious that they wanted you to be a bad guy who was under their control for a long time. How aware were you of the level of animus directed towards you and what did you think your future was?

Well, interestingly enough, as soon as I was arrested, the FSB told me what they were doing. And they said they wanted three Russians that were in American custody. One had just been arrested for espionage, basically unregistered foreign agent. And their intent was to get those three back for me. The people at the lower end that I was dealing with, obviously they're believing what their people at the top are telling them.

They quickly figured out that I wasn't a general and I wasn't a secret agent. But you know, that's Russia. The people at the bottom were functionaries and they just did what they were told. So they grabbed me and held me. What were you doing in Russia? Remind people. I was in Russia with friends. We'd gone for a wedding, an American friend

and his fiance who was Russian, but lived in America, educated in America. We'd gone for a wedding. We were at the Metropolitan Hotel right on Red Square. We followed all the travel advisories. I'd been there a few times before. We were doing all the safe things in the safe places, being tourists right in Red Square where the Kremlin is, Goom department store and whatnot. So, you know, we're in a safe place doing safe things. And for some reason, the FSB set up an operation, which would have been approved at the top

because in Russian society, lower level people don't just do things on initiative. So this would have been something that came down from the top to grab an American to use for an exchange purpose. Do you believe Paul Whalen could have been anybody or is there anything about you that made you attractive to them?

Well, I don't know why I would have been any more attractive than anyone else who had been a law enforcement or the military, who traveled abroad, worked in the security world, things like that. There's nothing in my background to do with intelligence or espionage. There's nothing that would have stuck out as me being a big catch. The funny thing is that when I was arrested,

the FSB guys that arrested me said I was a brigadier general and a secret agent for the Defense Intelligence Agency, and that's the story that they'd been given. I chuckled and blew it off, but that's seriously what they had believed. You know, they figured out after a while that it wasn't true. But that was the narrative that we had a lot of trouble with because the Russians obviously wouldn't back down from that.

When did you stop chuckling and realize that this could be the end? Well, you know, I have a pretty jovial personality and even when I was arrested, you know, I was talking back and forth with the FSB through a translator because I don't speak Russian. The Russian I know now is prison level Russian, which isn't very polite.

But you know, I'm speaking with these Russian FSB guys, you know, they're young and we're going back and forth, and they're telling me, hey, this will be worked out with a political solution, it's just a matter of time. They brought up the case of Danilov from 1986, which took three weeks. I think they thought that this would be something they could wrap up in a few weeks and that I'd be

home and I wouldn't have to sit in the, sit in La Florida prison for a while. It turned out tremendously different. When did that hit you that I'm not going home? I don't know if I'm ever going home. And what was that like? Well, I knew that I was going home at some point. I didn't know how long it would take. At first, the Russians wanted three people back. Then when Krasikov was

arrested in Germany in 2019, the Russians said, hey, you know, don't worry about these other three. We want Krasikov. We'll trade Paul for Vadim. I knew that that was a bit of a long shot. Number one, the Germans had Krasikov and he was an assassin. I was a tourist. The narrative that we were following, I was a tourist, he was an assassin, it didn't equal up. When Trevor Reed was arrested and exchanged, then Brittany Griner was arrested and exchanged.

That changed things a little bit. Then the one person that was arrested for espionage that the Americans held, they sent back after 18 months, which surprised everyone. And, you know, to this day, we still don't know why they did it. You know, I never gave up hope that I would be brought home. I knew that my four countries were trying to get me home. Everyone realized, you know, that I wasn't a spy and that I was just being held hostage. And unfortunately, this is the problem of hostage diplomacy.

What was life like for you there? It was bad. La Forte of a prison, they call it the shooting gallery. That's where they used to, and I think still do, shoot Russian citizens. It's not a nice place. You know, you're in a cell nine square meters by yourself. You don't really have very many comforts. I did have the four governments, the four counselors, officers and ambassadors coming to visit me quite regularly. That wasn't bad for the first year and a half, but it is taxing. You're in a small space by yourself.

Wait a minute, a year and a half. You can't just say a year and a half, like you did six hours. I mean, anybody who's ever been in a jail for five minutes, it's an immediate feeling of being in a different world and being obviously under threat. And that's here in America, like in the local community lockup, because you got a DUI or something stupid like that. This was heavy. What was the day? What was the routine for you?

Well, you know, one of the problems I had is I didn't understand the language. So I didn't know what the guards were going to do. I didn't know if they would treat me well or if they treat me badly. Um, the power used to go out all the time. And I used to, when the power went out, go under my bed, because if the power went out so the guards could rush into my cell and beat me up, you know, in the dark without the cameras catching it, you know, I would be protected.

It sounds silly now, but at the time I was like, well, you know, why do the lights go off all the time? They've got cameras in the cell. The lights stay on 24 hours a day, except when they have these power outages. So what is happening? Are they targeting somebody else? Are they gonna target me?

So there were things that I had to do to protect myself. It's not fun being in a cell by yourself. It's not fun not being able to hear your own language and to have people watching you through cameras, 24 to seven, to have a light on all night long so you can't sleep properly. You know, the food that you're given is substandard. Luckily at LaFortiva for that first year and a half, I had food coming in from the consulates. But the Russians denied medical care.

You know, I had a hernia problem. The Russians wouldn't let me have surgery and it ended up being an emergency strangulation. I had to go to the hospital in the middle of the night. And you know, here I was, you know, with the FSB and prison guards going to a hospital in an ambulance at a Russian hospital, having surgery in Russia with people that didn't speak English, that weren't explaining what was happening. And then the conditions in the operating room were, like mash.

I mean, it was just meatball surgery. It was unbelievable. Yeah, I kind of laugh it off a little bit now, but that still leaves a searing impression in my mind, just how bad the conditions were. Somebody remarked to me when I said that I was talking to you. They're like, yeah, that guy doesn't seem broken enough

for what he went through. You do have almost a preternatural calm to you. It must've been a very helpful survival tool, but where does that come from? You know, my parents are resilient. They were small children during World War II, growing up in England. The Germans bombed their homes, their cities.

They had to put up with that sort of thing when they were young. And growing up, I kind of took on the same persona. Just being patient, being resilient, it helped through different careers and whatnot. And I knew that yelling and screaming and going mad or going out of control with the Russians wasn't gonna help.

You know, I had to stay calm when I went to court, I had to be in control. And I had to use whatever opportunity, like going to court and the perp walk they always put me through to my advantage and I did. You know, I was able to pass notes to the consular officers, I passed documents and information to reporters during the perp walks.

When I was in court, I was able to say a lot of things to the consular officers and reporters that the Russians didn't really figure out that I was doing until later on and they weren't happy with me. But yeah, you know, there's a part of me that's broken and it's gonna take a long time for that to be mended. What was the harshest part of the treatment?

Did they physically abuse you? Were other prisoners coming after you? What was the hardest part? So the first year and a half I was by myself and then I was moved to a labor camp. And these are the old Soviet Gulags. They were built in the 30s and 40s. Mine was actually improved by German prisoners of war. The place is hideous. I mean, nothing works. Everything's broken. You know, we have cold water. It's really irony. It's horrible to have to drink or wash with. You know, the saving grace actually was the war in Ukraine, because all the Russian prisoners from the camp went to the war. And those left were Tajik, Uzbek, Kyrgyz, Central Asian kids, many of them in their early 20s,

many there for just minor drug offenses. The Ukraine war created a situation where a lot of the Russian prisoners were taken out. Now that's very interesting. So you can confirm for the audience that it is true that Russia did empty the jails in order to create a fighting force. How do you know? They did because people that I knew, Russian citizens as well as Tajik and Uzbek citizens, went from my prison to the war. We had illegal burner phones, and so we were actually communicating with them on the front lines. Who's we? Me and with them on the front lines. Who's we? Me and other prisoners at the camp.

So were these like good guys, bad guys, or just anybody and did they have a choice? Was it, you want to stay here, do you want to go fight? How'd it work? Most of them were either career criminals who had been locked up many, many times and saw the war as a fleeting chance at freedom. And then the rest were young kids who had long sentences for maybe possession of an ounce of marijuana.

The drug laws in Russia are really draconian. And because the prisons are labor camps, they have to keep the prisons full so that they get this free labor. So these kids were saying, well, if I go to war for six months, I could survive and then I go home. That was the thinking. They weren't going because they had some ideological view of Putin as some master and Russia being superior. They just wanted to go home.

Did they try to hurt you, the prisoners there? How did they view you as an American spy? You know, that's the funny thing is when I first got there, I wasn't sure how I'd be received. You know, the Russians said, well, you may not be a spy. We don't know what you are, but you are something because, you know, we've been told not to touch you. We've been told to help you in any way we can and not make trouble.

The Tajik's Newsmax, the same way, they're just like, look, if you're a spy against Russia, that's great. If you're not, well, you're in the same boat we are. So we're all allied in being prisoners of Putin's Russia. I didn't really have any trouble. There are issues in prisons all over the world, mental health concerns. You know, some people are there because they have mental health concerns and they have committed crimes.

Others aren't happy because they're in intolerable situations and you have to deal with that. You know, the Central Asians are a little bit different than we are. The Russians are a little bit different than we are. So, you had different cultural, religious values, societal, socioeconomic values, and these are all things that come into play, some negative, some positive.

But for the most part, I got along well with people. One of the nice things for all the prisoners was that I had four ambassadors coming to visit. But I'm in a remote little place called Mordovia. I'm out in the middle of nowhere. These ambassadors are coming from Moscow, And I'm in a remote little place called Mordovia. I'm out in the middle of nowhere. And these ambassadors are coming from Moscow, and they're speaking with the Russian foreign

minister and foreign ministry. And that impressed people. And it gave a lot of oversight to the camp. And it calmed down some of the corruption and some of the problems that we had been having with the guards when I first arrived. I will say that I helped and worked with the FSP at the camp to have two wardens and a deputy warden arrested and put in prison because their corruption was so bad that even the FSP said, yeah, this is over the top.

So you took an interest in what was happening at the prison when you were there trying to get yourself out? Yeah. Yeah, you're a weird guy, Paul. You're a little bit weird. You have some eccentricities that probably helped you survive in that.

I think you're a little different than the rest of us. It doesn't mean that you were rightfully detained, but I think you had some personal characteristics going for you. So just take us through a TikTok of what the normal day was there. In La Forte in Moscow was really boring. You know, you're up at six,

you have three meals provided through a slot in the door. You're sitting there reading books, writing letters. There was a TV I could watch, a few Russian propaganda channels. They were obviously in Russian. And then at 10 p.m. we went to sleep. If during the day the ambassadors came to visit me, I'd go to a meeting room and see them.

If the FSB wanted to talk to me, I'd go to their offices and speak with them. We were allowed one shower a week. Sheets were changed once a week, that sort of thing. Pretty boring. And after a while, you know, the walls start to close in on you. So, you know, nine square meters, it might not sound too bad. But day in and day out, it wasn't great. And then at night in LaFortiva, they left the light on, so it was difficult to sleep. At the prison camp, like I said, it's a labor camp, and they want labor, so we're up at six.

We're in the factory, we're working in the factory six days a week, sometimes seven, and then we'd go to bed at 10, and during the day we'd get three meals. They were very, very bad meals. We were really relying on the food that came in from family, friends, my consulates, and things like that, as well as what we could get at the shop.

What was the work at the factory? Well, interestingly enough, it wasn't too bad. We made insulated coats and trousers for utility workers and military. So airport runway workers, postmen, railway workers, things like that. I did buttons and button holes. So I had two machines. And for some reason, even though we did 150 codes every day,

I could never get the buttons and button holes to line up. Was that on purpose? Of course. You know, some of the other prisoners would sabotage, you know, the sleeves or the cuffs or whatever. So, you know, everything we produced looked pretty bad. It really did. But nobody seemed to care. And that was the other thing is, you know, after years of doing this, we thought somebody would say something and, you know, people would laugh and say, no, this is Russia. They don't care. So, but I left my mark on Russian society. Support for the Chris Cuomo project comes from select quote.

So here I am in my mid 50s. OK, I got three kids. I'm blessed to have a wife. I've got financial responsibilities. I've got real estate. I have a very uncertain estate tax environment. What am I talking about? I'm talking about?

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Go to Select Quote. Get your life insurance right. Get it for you, for less. Go to selectquote.com slash Chris C. Select quote.com slash Chris C. Get there today and get your quote. Support for the Chris Cuomo Project comes from Factor. Okay, if you go to my sub stack and join, you will become part of my wellness health

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Well, I was actually convicted. We went through the court process and I was convicted. The judge told me at sentencing that I'd be home in two weeks, that a deal would be reached and I'd be home in two weeks, not a deal would be reached and I'd be home in two weeks, not to worry. Of course, that didn't happen. I was sent to the labor camp and that was partly to put pressure on my governments to reach a deal.

So, the last four years I was at this labor camp, it was a shock. I mean, being in prison, being locked up, not being able to make your own decisions and live your own life, things like that. You know, it does wear on you. So, you know, when your friend says that I don't look broken enough, yeah, trust me, I am.

Well, it's a compliment that, you know, you really were able to sustain yourself in such a horrible set of conditions. And then you had these flash points like Brittany Griner, she gets taken for weed or whatever it was. And then there's this huge push to get her back and she gets back home way before you. What was that like?

How aware were you of the Griner situation? And what was its impact on you emotionally and psychologically? You know, so one of the things at LaFortiva, they left the light on 24 hours a day. So, you know, it was hard to sleep. At the labor camp, they would come to my bed every night and every two hours they'd wake me up, take my picture, to make sure I hadn't escaped.

So, you know, we're talking that for four years, every night, every two hours they'd come and wake me up. So I wasn't sleeping well, you know, and that has an impact. So when the situation with Trevor Reed came up, you know, that he was being transferred back, you know, that had an impact. And then, you know, we knew about Krasikov being in German hands and that the Russians wanted to trade him for me. We were hoping that a deal would be done with Krasikov and the merchant of death that was traded for Brittany. We thought there would be a deal put together. And then, you know, it turned out there was a deal, but it didn't include me and it didn't

include Krasikov. That was a low point, an extremely low point, because I realized that the US had nothing left to bargain with. They'd given up their bargaining position. Roger Carstens, the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs and I had been in touch. I'd spoken to him regularly from prison on these illegal burner phones. I was in touch with the State Department and other agencies within the US government. I knew the basics of what was happening. And I was led to believe a few times that, I just needed to pack my bags and wait

because I'd be home soon. And at the four year mark, when Brittany went home, I wasn't too happy. I mean, she was there 10 months. It's not her fault that things worked out the way they did. I was glad that she went home. Even her being there 10 months was 10 months too long. Trevor, you know, he was there more than three years.

He shouldn't have been there locked up at all. But there I was, and it was four years. And, you know, as you say, it's, you know, this kind of thing wears on you. And this is what breaks people down. You know, I had telephone calls with Secretary Blinken from prison. You know, I had the communication that I could, communication that other prisoners in other countries never had.

So I was actually fairly well informed. You know, I couldn't be told everything, but I was told the bare bones. You know, the Russians kept changing the goalposts. Do you think that America took care of you? Do you think that our government did what they were supposed to do with you, or are you disappointed?

They did take care of me. Roger Carstens, Antony Blinken, Jake Sullivan, National Security Advisor, Bill Burns, CIA Director, those guys made it a mission to get me home. And they did. It just took a little while. Well, like how did you explain to yourself or how did you understand Brittany Greiner getting back before you? It was the deal with Krasikov.

The Russians wanted Krasikov. They weren't gonna give me up until they got Krasikov as part of a deal. The US said we can't trade Krasikov because the Germans have them. And that kind of put my trade on one side while they dealt with getting Brittany back. What I was told was the decision was made

to get one American back versus no American. And I support that. I just wish I had been the American that came home. Yeah, I don't get, but I don't understand why you weren't. Why was there this hard and fast understanding that you for Krasikov and why Greiner was easier to get? Were you suspicious that there were motivations

on the American side, that she was somehow more desirable to get back because of the media profile? I'm sure that played into it, yeah. I mean, she was only there 10 months. I mean, even, you know, Trevor was there more than three years. I don't know who made all the decisions. I know the people that were involved,

they were involved in my return. I can't hold anything against them, but I was there an awfully long time and I don't think I should have been. There were those during that situation who were like, so Griner is a black female and a lesbian and she checks all these boxes of diversity and wokeness and that's what's going on and Whalen's just a white guy.

So he's a victim of circumstance of what was of cultural importance to the left when they were in power. You buy any of that? I'm sure that entered into the conversation. You know, at the time I knew nothing about any of that. I only knew about the Krasnikov piece. It did surprise me when the merchant of death

was sent back to Russia for someone who was there on a minor charge. But again, the Russians had the keys. I mean, they had us locked up. They were the ones that were making the decisions as to who would be traded and who wouldn't. You know, the decisions in Washington, the political animus, you know, who was saying what and who was doing what. I really don't know of the details at this point. I do know that Brittany's stature as a WNBA player helped with media attention. You know, the president had a phone call with her family

and had her family at the White House long before he would get on the phone with my family and have my family at the White House. That was quickly resolved after Britney's release. But these are the things that stick in the back of my mind. Why wasn't my family afforded that same level of contact from the White House and high-level people from the start?

Why did it take the media getting involved to kick things into motion. As I said, the people at the top got me home. It took a long time. The media helped tremendously, and that's part of my story. But it was five years, seven months, and five days of my life that I can't get back. The only reason that I was held was because I was an American citizen.

I hadn't done anything. You know, I wasn't drunk and disorderly. I didn't take dope to Russia. I didn't commit any crimes. I went as a tourist and, you know, walked into a situation that the Russians had planned. Yeah, it was very difficult to kind of come to terms and put those pieces of the puzzle together and still, you know, some of that I just have to walk away from and get on with life.

I can't worry about it. How did you sustain your hope when you were in there? What kind of devices did you use? Were you just leaning on your brother and sister? Did you make plans? Like, how did you keep yourself motivated? Well, every day I got up and I sang quite loudly and quite badly the national anthems of my four countries. And I did that from day one to the last day.

At the labor camp, the Tajiks, Newsbacks, and Kyrgyz, they'd sing along with me, singing their national anthems. And, you know, I don't sing very well. I know the words, but I don't sing very well. So, you know, I did that kind of as an act of defiance every day. And it went on from there. If there was something that I could do in defiance at La Forteva or, you know, with the FSB or at the camp, I would. You know, I didn't go out of my way to endanger anybody or make anyone's life really miserable. But, you know, if there was a rule that they weren't following that would benefit me, I made sure they followed it.

I was supposed to have mail, so I pressed the point. I was allowed to have English books. I pressed the point. I would write letters and complaints and speak with the local prosecutor. The local FSB guys at the labor camp, they would come and say, look, Paul, if you have problems, talk to us. We don't need you telling your ambassador that there's something wrong at the labor camp, they would come and say, look, Paul, if you have problems, talk to us. You know, we don't need you telling your ambassador that there's something wrong at the camp.

And then, you know, the foreign ministry gets a call and then the prison service gets a call and then the FSB gets a call and then somebody, you know, unloads on us. So you tell us if there's a problem and we'll come and fix it for you. And for the most part they did, like I said, you know, two wardens put in prison,

one deputy warden put in prison. I mean, that's the kind of thing that my fellow prisoners couldn't get to occur. So, I mean, those were the things that I would fight. I was a little bit of a rabble rouser, a man of the people, I would call it. But if there was something untoward going on, I'd bring it up. And if we couldn't get it resolved locally, then I you know, I would tell whoever I had to, including international media. How did you change?

You know, I've always been fairly patient as a person, a little less tolerant of BS than, than, you know, maybe other people might. I grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan. It's a multicultural, you know, sort of liberal area. I was always more conservative than, you know, the people I ran around with. You know, I've now kind of changed a little bit in that I'm still very, very patient, but probably more patient than I had been. My tolerance levels for BS are higher than they used to be, and I just ignore a lot of the nonsense that I hear on TV and the radio. Unfortunately, when you're ignoring what's happening in the world, to an extent, you miss out on what's happening in the world. But that's kind of a bit of a coping mechanism. I don't want to get wrapped

up in the politics. I don't want to get wrapped up in some of the things happening now because I've got my own life to fix. But being resilient sometimes means that you gotta put your hand up and just say, look enough. I'm not gonna tolerate this nonsense. What did you learn about Russians or about politics or about life? Well, one of the things that I'd known for a long time from traveling the world,

and of course I'm an immigrant, my parents are immigrants, people around the world are the same. You know, they all want the same thing. They want a nice life. They want to have, you know, a family. They want to have a nice home. They just want a peaceful existence. Very few people really want to go out there

and cause trouble and, you trouble and ruin people's lives or ruin their countries or the world. There are some, most of them are locked up in prison, hopefully, but what I learned with the Tajiks, Newsbags and the Russians, we were all stuck in a situation and there were pieces of each of us that were the same. Maybe the culture, the religion, the personalities and behaviors were a little bit different here and there. But I did figure out and I cemented the fact that people are the same and they do want the same out of life.

It's the people like Putin or what's his name, Kim Jong-un in North Korea. It's those sorts of people that ruin it for everybody else. They're the dictators that are holding everybody else back. The sanctions we have against Russia don't hurt Putin. They hurt the people who have kids in prison or just the normal run-of-the-day workers. The same in North Korea. We can have all kinds of sanctions against the guy in charge,

but it's the people lower down that it hurts. How did you avoid the violence that is always ascribed to Russian prisons? Everyone knew that I was a high value and that, you know, I wasn't to be touched. I wasn't to be extorted that I wasn't to be touched, I wasn't to be extorted, I wasn't to have trouble. At first I had two minders,

the two senior guys in the camp looked out for me. There were some other prisoners that spoke English, a couple from Africa, we ended up with some Cubans and some of the Central Asian guys spoke English. So they were able to tell me how things worked and how things went. A lot of the Central Asian guys spoke English, so they were able to kind of tell me how things worked and how things went.

A lot of the violence that did occur, it would be between the Russians, and I would just stand back and watch. Some of the violence was between the different Muslim groups, the Chechens and the Tajiks, they didn't get along. And the Chechens are Russian citizens, but they didn't get along because they practiced Islam differently. So they had a few big brawls and, you

know, that was between them. I only had one instance where a guy hit me and that was over the US support of Israel. And it was actually last November. The guy about my age reached over a table and hit me on the side of the face. He wasn't happy that the US was helping Israel against Muslims in the Middle East. He was ranting and raving and he reached over a table and hit me. Not the worst hit I've ever had in my life, but it showed that nothing could happen in prison. Other prisoners grabbed that guy and they beat him up as a lesson. People were apologizing to me,

the guy was prosecuted for it, et cetera, et cetera. But it just showed everyone that even though the FSB was in control of the camp, the camp leadership didn't want any problems with me. The guards didn't want problems with me. The senior prisoners didn't want problems with me. And I got along, basically, with everybody. If you had a loose cannon

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Take us through it. I had some phone calls with people at home, including, you know, in Ottawa and London especially. And I knew that there were negotiations for the German release of Krasikov. The British and the Canadians were involved with speaking with the Germans and helping the American side get Krasikov. The US had, when Brittany was released,

basically said, okay, Russia, we don't agree with your narrative about Paul. He's not a general, he's not a secret agent, he doesn't work for DIA, but we'll go with it for the purposes of negotiation. For Paul, you want Krasikov. Then throwing that Evan Krasikovic was arrested for espionage too, to sweep the deal.

I knew that something was afoot. I had spoken with Secretary Blinken on the phone. I had spoken with some others in Washington, Ottawa, and London, and my hopes were up. Now, obviously, you prepare for the best and you expect the worst, right? Or expect the best and you expect the worst, right? Or expect the best and prepare for the worst, right? It's the coin that has one side on each. I had an inkling from the FSB that something was afoot. Two young guys turned up at the camp. They wanted me to write a pardon letter to President Putin.

And I kind of chuckled like, yeah, okay, whatever. I said, you know, I can't do that in Russian. Someone would have to translate it, you know, it would take time. And they said, no, no, no, here's a piece of paper and a pen. We don't care what language it's in, write it in English. Just, you know, it's for President Putin and that you want a pardon and just, you know, give us some reasons why you should go home. I said, okay, whatever. And they said, no, no, Paul, right now we want it. The people in Moscow are waiting for it. We have to like scan this and send it back. And I sat back and I remembered that Ambassador Karstens had told me that Brittany and Trevor had had to do

the same thing, write these letters of pardon. And that was soon before they were released. So I said, okay, so I wrote out the letters of pardon. And that was soon before they were released. So I said, okay, so I wrote out the letter of pardon and then started making some phone calls. And nobody would tell me that my release was imminent, but they did say, hey, just be prepared, get ready. I called my parents and said, if you don't hear from me for a few days,

it could be a good thing. Don't panic, stay in touch with the consulate and the hostage affairs team in the State Department. And it was actually the next morning the FSB came and they, you know, they said, hey, Paul, you're going to the hospital. And I said, oh, really? I'm going to the hospital, right? And they said, yeah. And I said, okay, so what should I take? And they said, well, take everything that you want. And, you know, usually when you go to the hospital, you know, you take one bag with just a few things. I said, okay.

So I went, you know, back to the barrack with a couple of guys, and I'd had most of my things prepared, you know, books in a bag, other things that I would have to take with me. I gave most of my stuff to, you know, to friends at the camp, and brought a couple of bags,

and, you know, loaded them up in a FSB vehicle, and we drove the 10 hours back to Moscow. Now, I got to LaFortiva and most of the people that I encountered were the people that had been there previously, four years ago. So they knew me to some extent, a couple spoke English fairly well. As soon as I got there, they nodded in acknowledgement and know, acknowledgement, and they all

went like this. This was something that the Russians would always do. Now, in the U.S. military, this means, you know, kind of huddle up, you know, rally, huddle up. In Russia, if they do this, it means that somebody's listening. You know, there are listening devices, you know, hidden somewhere. So they kept doing that. They wouldn't, you know, We would go like this, right?

They would go like this. I knew what was happening. And so finally, I got to a corner of LaFortiva and one of the officers said, hey, do you know why you're here? I said, I think I'm going home. And he said, yeah, you are. But he's like, hey, just don't say anything, be quiet. You're going to be in a solitary cell for five days.

And then you'll probably go home." I said, okay. So I was literally in a solitary cell. I didn't leave for exercise. I didn't leave this little cell for the five-day period, and then on the fifth day, that same guard came back and he had a bag of my civilian clothes that I had with me. They hadn't been lost in five years and they were all too big because I was so malnourished.

They said, he put some clothes on, you're going. I said, okay. They had some documents and things for me to sign. I was like, cool, this is it. One of the guards told me that a couple of Americans had come in and they were talking about Evan and Al Su and that other prisoners had been brought in. And we were all taken individually out to a bus. And it was on the bus that I met Evan and Alsou, who came home with me. So yeah, it was quite a moment.

So this was August 1st, Russian time. I was still a little bit leery that something could go wrong, that there could be a problem, that you know at the last minute the Russians might yank us back and say look America we want more you know for this exchange. But there were plenty of people on the bus. There was like I don't know 16 of us I think total and the people that I was I was sitting next to were German Russians or just you know German Bulgarian, German Romanians who had been in Russia. They were people that were either allied with Navalny or had done something minor and

been caught up in the Russian nation nations. We weren't sure where we were going. We knew we couldn't fly over Ukraine, so we weren't going to fly to Europe necessarily. We didn't know if we'd maybe go to Doha, go to Qatar, something like that. But we drove to an airport, we got on a Russian foreign ministry plane.

And it wasn't until we were wheels up and we were out of Russian airspace that we all kind of looked at each other and said, yeah, this is actually happening. How did it hit you? You know, I tried to be a realist as much as possible, and I knew in the back of my mind that things could go wrong, that we could be turned around and sent back.

You just never knew. But it gave me a lot of hope, and I was quite pleased at what was happening. But again, I was a little bit reserved. To be quite honest, it wasn't until after we'd done the exchange and we were flying back, you know, to our hemisphere that, you know, we hit the White Cliffs of Dover. And that was the point when I realized that, you know, I was back in friendly territory.

How often do you remember that moment? Quite often. Yeah. What do you think the toughest part was for you emotionally? Knowing what the whole debacle was doing to my parents. You know, they're in the mid-80s. They'd been through a lot early on in life.

They had a fairly nice, calm, quiet life. I ran around the world. They'd done a lot of world traveling themselves, but I ran around the world for work and whatnot. But I always came home. My cat and dog died while I was gone. My parents had done a lot to keep my dog alive especially. But she was 14 and she'd had a good life

and it was good age for a golden retriever. But that was really difficult. That was difficult on my parents because we had thought that I would be home to see my cat and my dog again. And it was that sort of realization that the home I was going back to wasn't the home that I left. And there were other things. I wasn't going back to my job. I wasn't going back to my home. I wasn't going back to my old car. All these things were gone. And that weighs heavily on your mind because you're thinking,

well, this isn't the life that I left. And this has all been taken away from me by the Russians. And then my parents were dealing with that same sort of thing, knowing that I was coming back to a life that was fractured and needed to be put back together. Do you hate the Russians?

No, I hate Putin. You know, it's Putin and the people that he's got in place at the top. The Russians really live pretty badly. When you see the third world conditions in Russia, you see how bad things are outside of St. Petersburg and Moscow, you see just bad things are outside of St. Petersburg and Moscow, you see just how bad it is for them.

And it's, you know, it's partly their fault because they won't rise up and they need to. There needs to be another rebellion, another revolution in Russia. They need to get rid of Putin and all the old KGB hacks. They just need to wipe out all of the people in charge and start again. You know, they're responsible for that, but I can't hate the people for what happened to me because the people that did it are Putin and the people in charge of the FSB and Sergey Lavrov. He's the foreign minister.

When you, you don't want to, you know, you don't have any need to indulge in politics, but when you're monitoring what's happening in America, and there's definitely been a shift on the political right that is sympathetic to Putin and the Russian cause now, which I would have never imagined happening. Maybe on the left, maybe some kind of commie for commie thing, but what does that mean to you when you hear how, because of the Ukraine conflict and Trump and Zelensky

or whatever, people talk about Putin, like maybe he's acting in the right? Well, anyone who says that needs their head examined because if you look at what he's been doing for the last 20 couple of years that he's been in power, all he's done is keep his people down. You know, you look at the wars in Chechnya, you look at what he's done in Dagestan, you look at what he's done, just the hazing and the problems in the military. You know, it's cutthroat at every level. You know, the pensions there are nothing. The economy is horrible. Outside Moscow

and St. Petersburg, like I said, it's a third world country. Anyone who thinks that the Russians have it better than we do or that their system of government is better than ours needs to go over there and take a look. It's horrible. And Putin is a dictator. I mean, you know, I knew that before I went to Russia. But Putin's a dictator. And until him and the other people in charge, the Sloviki, and the people who own everything, the oligarchs, until they're gone, there can't be a modern Russia. They just can't. What has been the best and the worst of being back home? Well, you know, the best is just having freedom. You know, if I want a Chips Ahoy cookie, I can eat it.

You know, if I want to go to Subway and have a Subway, I can do that. You know, I can drive around and see friends and family. I can talk on the phone. I can get up when I want and go to sleep when I want. You know, there's still chores and things I have to do. And my parents have things that that I take care of for them. You know, that's been the good part. The bad part and one of the things that, you know, I'm working on with Congress and community leaders is that once people like me, hostages, get off the plane, that's it. The government's like, okay, go home, you know,

good luck. There is no social safety net for us. There is no compensation. There is in the Hostage Recovery Act, a provision that we're supposed to be taking care of for five years with medical, dental, optical, psychological type benefits, but the government never funded it. Congress is like, hey, there's

a five-year provision in the Hostage Recovery Act to take care of you. I said, yeah, but you never gave it any money. So the State Department can't do anything. And so, you know, Debbie Dingell and Hailey Stevens, my congresswomen, they're trying to take care of that right now. And there are actually a lot of people in Congress that are looking out for hostages. But, you know, in Michigan, I don't qualify for unemployment benefits. No, there's no social safety net for people like me. I'm actually living off a GoFundMe account and the help of people in my community.

I'll eventually go back to a full-time job, but after being held hostage for five and a half years, it takes a little bit longer than four months to get back into the, you know, the right frame of mind to sit in an office and have a normal job and to do things like that. How often do you wake up and think you're in prison? You know, that's happened before,

especially when I first got back to the States. I was in Texas at Fort San Houston in San Antonio. And I would wake up in the middle of the night. I was on the wrong time zone. I'd wake up in the middle of the night, not really understanding where I was. And it was dark and I was used to lights being on all the time.

So, you know, that's happened a few times at home. I've woken up and, you know, I've had to look around and just kind of, you know, check myself to make sure that I am, you know, awake and at home and not asleep and in prison. But yeah, these are the things. This is the reality that you don't just get off a plane and then go back to normal life. Having an income is important.

That's why we're looking for compensation. But medical, dental benefits, things like that are important. Every one of us, Brittany, Trevor, the guys that have just come back from China, the ones that came back from Venezuela, and Iran a few months back, they've all been through

a traumatic experience of one sort or another. This is where PTSD plays in. And, you know, unfortunately, for me, you know, my employer cut me loose fairly early on, so I came back without a job, you know, so no income, no medical benefits, things like that, no insurance, and others have been in the same boat. So, you know, we're really looking for Congress to fund the Hostage Recovery Act, you know, the way it's written,

and, you know, the way it's written. And, you know, we're working with congressional members to work in some sort of compensation for those like me who were held just because we were American citizens for, you know, some sort of diplomatic reason. What do you want to do with your life that you wouldn't have done before? Well, I have to make a difference. You know, a lot of people in the government, in Washington, in Ottawa, in Dublin, in London, they work tirelessly to get me out. Some of those people, I'll never know their names and I'll never meet them. There were people in my local community that took care of my parents before I was gone. There were people all over the country that wrote letters,

especially after Brittany was released, she asked people to write letters to me and she did a lot of advocating on my behalf. Those are the people that made a difference to me. The media, I had a lot of contact with the media. The media really helped me in my cause. So I can't just go into retirement. I want to write a book. I'm working on that.

I'm working with Congress to make sure that the aftercare for hostages is better when others come home. But I need to look at how can I make a difference? How can we work on deterring this hostage diplomacy? How can we better work on recovering people? But then the aftercare piece, making sure that when people come home, this hostage diplomacy, you know, how can we better work on recovering people, but then the aftercare piece, making sure that when people come home, they are taken care of properly and their families are taken care of properly.

Because it's a big deal to be held hostage. I mean, it's not like on TV, you know, it's not like on TV. And you know, I might not look like I'm totally broken, but you know, there are pieces that are chipped and they've got to be put back in place and that clue's got to set. And it's going to take time. So the reintegration we call it is a process. Well Brother Paul, I am here for it.

You got a book, I'll blow it up. You want to come on TV, you text me, and the answer is yes. If there's something that you want me to cover that is relevant to you and others like you, I'm a text away and the story is gonna be on the air. Whatever I can do to help, you deserve it and you have my respect and my appreciation. I am so impressed by how you handled yourself.

I could have never done it. Yeah, I really appreciate that. You know, one of the things I'd mentioned that the GoFundMe account, you know, I use that personally, but I'm also using that for my trips to DC to advocate on behalf of people that are being held right now. I'm using that for trips to New York to talk to the UN about this issue of arbitrary detention. So you know, if you could, you know, get the GoFundMe out and let people know that

the money is going to help me. It will be on the bottom of this screen the entire time of the podcast. I appreciate that. Yeah. I'll be back in Washington on the 23rd of January. I'm meeting with people at the State Department, as well as, you know, going to the International Spy Museum for an event. But yeah, it's, you know, anytime I can get to New York or get to DC

and speak to Congress people, I'm doing it. And this issue of hostage diplomacy, arbitrary detention, I'm just gonna bird dog it until it just goes away. Well, thank you for representing our country so well in such a horrible set of circumstances and showing us for the best of ourselves to people who are acting like the worst of themselves. And you want to come on? I'm a call away and I'll help any way I can. And I'm really, really happy to meet

you and see you at home in the United States of America. Well, you know, I've watched you for years, I mean for decades. I'm big in Russian prisons. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, there was a gap that I didn't, I couldn't follow you to it. Believe me, you missed nothing that was worth paying attention to, I promise you that.

Okay, well, so I certainly knew who you were, so when I got the message, hey, do you wanna do a podcast with this guy? I was like, absolutely, absolutely. So I really appreciate you having me on and for the support. I still can't get over his state of calm, his ability to balance. I mean, he's like the ultimate stoic, this man.

What an amazing gift his disposition was, his mental strength, his psychological strength to survive what I don't know how many would survive the way he did in those circumstances for that long years. Years, amazing. I hope you appreciated hearing from Paul Whalen. I meant what I said. He needs help, he deserves our respect and our appreciation

and I am a call away and we will continue our coverage of his situation. He's home, but he's certainly not healed. Thank you very much for subscribing, for following here at the Chris Cuomo Project. Appreciate you, see you on News Nation, 8p Eastern, every weekday night. Always good to have you. You a critical thinker? You an independent? You a free agent? Are you free? You control your own mind, your own beliefs? Good. Wear it. Wear your independence. Check out

the free agent gear. We'll use the money to give to good causes. Alright my friends, the problems are real. Let's get after them.