The Chris Cuomo Project - Iyanla Vanzant

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

Iyanla Vanzant (author, spiritual life coach, and podcast host, “The R Spot with Iyanla”) joins Chris Cuomo for an extended look at how people cope with struggle and suffering, touching upon why people avoid speaking about their struggles, how people run away from the “star” of surrendering, trusting, accepting, and relaxing, the reason it took eleven years to repair her relationship with Oprah Winfrey, why being authentic is sexy, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Struggling and suffering are horrible things in life, and that's why there's nothing to be done about them, right? Wrong, and I have someone to prove it. I'm Chris Cuomo, and welcome to The Chris Cuomo Project. Ayanla Van Zandt. You know Ayanla Van Zandt. Big name from Oprah. Fix your life.

She's doing it bigger and better than ever. Author, speaker, knower of things, liver of life. And we talk about struggle and suffering and how they are a pathway to something better and how even at their worst, you are in power. You have the ability to control what they mean and what they wind up being in your own life. And a yanla has this beautiful way of expressing it called reaching for a star. Star is an acronym, and you're going to have to watch on or listen on to see what it means. But it is a great recipe to be consistent and persistent in finding better ways through life, no matter what

it brings your way. Thank you so much for subscribing and following, checking out how to wear your independence and get free agent merch. Love you coming up on social media and YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. I'm putting out more stuff for people based on what you're asking. But right now, you have a Yonla Van Zandt. She has been so successful for so long, and she's going to tell you the truth about how to struggle and what it means even when you suffer. The Chris Cuomo Project is supported by Cozy Earth. Why? Because I like their sheets. That's why. A lot of people don't get a good night's sleep for a lot of reasons. One of the ones that you can control is bedding.

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by providing affordable access to ED treatment, and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why? Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments, and you do it right from your couch. HIMS provides access to clinically proven, generic alternatives to Viagra or Cialis or whatever,

and it's up to like 95% cheaper, and there are options as low as two bucks a dose. HIMS has hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers. So if ED is getting you down, it's time to pick it up. Start your free online visit today at HIMS.com slash CCP. H-I-M-S dot com slash CCP. And you will get personalized ED treatment options. HIMS.com slash CCP.

Prescriptions, you need an online consultation with a healthcare provider. And they will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. You see the website. You'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, the price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan.

Ayanla Van Zandt, what a pleasure. I have been looking forward to this for a very long time. Thank you for taking the opportunity. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. You know, it excites me. So I want to talk to you about something that you communicate through your own life and your understanding of life. What I believe to be the most common human experience that gets the least attention and the most excuses, which is struggle

tension and the most excuses, which is struggle and suffering. Everybody suffers in life. Life has pain. Pain is personal. We never talk about how. We never really make it okay. We always want people to believe that they're not struggling. They're not suffering. We lie about doing it, and we don't help each other, even though it's probably the most relatable human experience. So I want to talk to you, a pro, about how to perceive it and how to act on it. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I guess we're talking having a light subject on today. Struggle and suffering. light subject, huh, today? Struggle and suffering. But it is so, it's probably next to fear, one of the most common human experiences is sorrow, is struggle, sorrow, suffering. You know,

the Buddhists speak about suffering as just a way of life. But the fact that we go into resistance about it or we get against it, that that is what creates the suffering. The struggle and how we respond to the struggle creates the suffering. And it's something that we all experience. I mean, if you crush your ankle, that is suffering. That's physical pain and that's suffering. But if you, and I know you know this, walk among a place after a tornado or an earthquake and you see the human suffering, then you experience another level of suffering. And we don't talk about it. We do it in silence because for some reason we think if people know I'm struggling, if people know I'm suffering, they'll think I'm weak. They'll think less of me. They'll think poorly of me.

And so we don't talk about it. We don't talk about it. And when we do, it's a variation of struggle. And you are brilliant on this. And one of the many reasons I was looking forward to this, that everything that matters in life that you want to achieve in a positive way is most likely hard. The very few things that we want in life are easy. Even if, well, be kind, it's easy to be kind. No, it's simple to be kind. It's not easy. And you have to struggle and it's going to be difficult

and you're going to have to want to do things and feel things that you don't want to to get what you want. And that's really where most of us break down and we can read the self-help. We can watch a Yonlo. We can read her work. But doing it is hard because we don't really talk about process except to make it seem like there's a magic solution

or seven easy steps or here's the secret and this is the way when really at the end of the day it doesn't matter how you want to do it you just have to do it and deal with what comes with that effort which is struggle yeah well by its very definition struggle means strenuous effort, strenuous effort to eliminate difficulty, opposition, limitation, restriction. It's a strenuous effort. What creates the suffering is when we make that strenuous effort wrong or bad, or we have a certain mental construct, how we think about the struggle, how we feel about the struggle will create the suffering. But as you said, it's a normal part of life. Struggle, meaning to learn something new. When you go to the gym, if I went to the gym today, I would be struggling.

To pull myself up on that bar, to do more than five push-ups. It would be a struggle for me, but I would be working towards something. Here's the problem with common everyday struggle. We can't see the end, so we think it's going to go on forever. We can't control the process, which then gives us fear. And we don't know how to speak about the things we're afraid of, the things we want to control, and the things that we don't know. Those are the three aspects of struggle that turn it into suffering. Why are we so quick in our society, especially, to play gotcha, to expose his weak, to jump on people when they do express something that we know damn well we feel as well. Why do we do that? What is that about?

Ego. Ego and the belief in separation and that whole competition, which is a part of struggle and suffering. Ego will say, well, at least I ain't as bad as you. of struggle and suffering. Ego will say, well, at least I ain't as bad as you. I got to point out to you how bad I am. Or at least I never did nothing that bad. So I have to highlight what it is that you did. Well, I'm doing this, but you're doing that, that whole competition. And then this is the big thing, Chris, the belief that we're separate, rather than me seeing your struggle as a part of my struggle, because I want you in peace. I want you in joy. I want you in happiness. I almost relish that I'm one up on you because I believe you're over there. That's your struggle. I'm over here. This is my struggle. And that's ego, the little separate self that wants us to

compete and be against each other. And really, Chris, where do we learn how to deal with struggle? We don't learn it in school. We don't learn it in church. Most of us don't even learn it from each other because we hide our struggles from each other. And we will criticize, judge, and condemn before we have compassion, support, and empathy. What is the upside to someone, let alone a male, a perceived alpha male, in telling people that you're hurting, you're worried, you're struggling. What is the upside to doing that? Because on its face, it seems like, oh, that's all downside. Well, if you're speaking to the right person, it humanizes you and it gives them the opportunity to practice humanity. I think you did it beautifully when you had COVID. You talked about your struggle and it was not seen as a weakness, but you were speaking to

people who had care and concern for you. If you don't know who you're talking to and they don't have the right consciousness or the right connection to you, they can use your struggle against you because people love histrionics. So six months, a year later, they'll remember when you said, oh, how are you going to tell me what to do when you did so-and-so? So again, it's the ego, it's the belief in separation. And for men, my heart goes out to men because there are very few soft places for men to fall, a place for them to say, I'm struggling. This doesn't feel good to me. I'm confused. I don't know what to do. So men will try to live into that, not only the alpha energy, but also the external expectations of them. Don't cry. Don't be weak. You got to know,

you got to do, you got to get it done. And if you don't, then something's wrong with you. And that is so unfair of what you choose to believe without that becoming delusion? Okay. Good question. Can we look at it this way for a moment? There are four levels to a struggle. I don't care what the situation is. There's the mental struggle, what you tell yourself about what you're doing, what you're facing, what you're experiencing. Then there's the mental struggle, what you tell yourself about what you're doing, what you're facing, what you're experiencing. Then there's the emotional struggle, what you feel about what you're going through, what you're doing, or what you're experiencing. Then there's the actual physical struggle, what you're trying to do to get out of the

situation. And then there's the spiritual struggle. Why is this happening to me? Who is responsible for this? Why would God, source, creator, whoever, allow this to happen to me? So sometimes you've really got to understand when you're talking to the person, what level of struggle are they on? If somebody is creating the struggle by their thoughts and their beliefs, you can't tell them don't do that because the mind is the most powerful thing you have. What you want to try to do is drop them into another level. So if they're telling you what

they're thinking and feeling, thinking and experiencing, you might want to say, tell me what you're feeling right now, because what that's going to do is anchor them back in the body. Or if they tell you I'm feeling sad or afraid or whatever, and say, why do you think this is happening to you? Let's get down into the spiritual level. So you've got to hear what the person is saying, what they're experiencing, and move them from one level. Because if you're struggling on one level, you're struggling on the other levels, but you can't solve it at the problem where the person is experiencing it the greater.

You've got to go to another level. Does that make sense? It does to me. It's just so hard to accept because of all the external judgment. You know, with like what I recently was dealing with, with getting shit canned from CNN was processing what things meant to me versus what they were said to be. And, you know, there's objective and there's subjective. Objective is

this bottle spills and the water goes wherever it goes. How I feel about it is completely subjective. It's not that water didn't fall. I even read like four of the Pollyanna books because I was like, why do people say Pollyanna like it's a bad thing? So I read some of the books. I was like, no, no, I get it. She's not saying the water didn't spill. She's saying I choose not to care about the water spilling the way you want me to. So I don't know why we use it as something derisive or negative to be Pollyanna when that's a good way to be. But what I had to learn, and it's very hard, is what somebody said or did or didn't do

or didn't say, what does that mean to me? How do I choose to feel about it when it's being reported everywhere and talked about on social media and people who even who you trust say to you, you should feel, you should be angry or you should not be angry or you should be this, you should be that. How do we keep our own counsel? For me, it really all depends on what your spiritual foundation is. Because the same mind that's angry or hurt or upset or feeling betrayed or feeling lost or feeling whatever, that same mind is the mind that you go into to get help about how to get out of this. That's not going to turn out well for you. So it's at those times that I feel, think, experience, you've got to turn to something greater than you.

And when I look at your situation, which, you know, of course, I looked at because you were my secret crush for many years. When I looked at that, right, I'm not, we're not supposed to tell anybody. When I look at that to understand the experience of what was going on with your brother, which is going to create mental and emotional suffering, and then what you had to do at the physical level, act like this is not going on. Act like that's not your brother. That is crazy making. That is crazy making. And then whatever the fallout was. So I would see your, first of all, not the struggle for you or in any situation like that. I first of all saw the suffering. That's someone so close to you. I mean, we can look at the people who just got shot in Texas or wherever.

First, that's the suffering. That's the crush of the ankle. That is real. That is visceral on all four levels. The struggle is, how do I manage this mentally, physically, emotionally, and still move on with my life? So there are those situations where the struggle is going on that creates the suffering. And then there are those situations

where the suffering is present and you've got to struggle with how to unfold it. I got a buddy right now who I grew up around. He's a very good friend of my sister, but he's like extended family and he's on hospice. He's had bad cancer and this is it. This is the end. And I call him up, comfort call. And he says, yeah, I'm okay with it. I'll live both my parents. I don't have a partner. I don't have any kids that need me in any acute way.

I don't have any kids that need me in any acute way. I'm good. I've had a good life. I'm all right with this. So I talk to him, hang up the phone. Bothers me. You're suffering. And I'm thinking to myself, this is some BS right here, man.

There's no way. So I call him back. And I'm like, look, I don't want to go all Tuesdays with Maury on you, but how, how, how you're only in your seventies. Uh, you just were finishing a book. You got two other books you want to do. You kind of been coming in your own since you were 60 and now you're okay. That it's about to be over and you believe in nothing else so that this is it. You just worm food after this. And he said, yeah. Yeah. And I said, why? He said, I choose to. That's it. And it really was a crystallizing moment for me. Now, I've heard

that many times, as you might imagine, over my 25, you know, and then some years in this business, I've got cancer. I lost this loved one. I lost things, opportunity, whatever it is. And people are like, yeah, I'm okay. I lost my legs, but you know, it's all right. You know, or yeah, I don't have any legs. I only have one arm, but I love to exercise anyway. And you're like, these people are delusional. No.

No. They know they have no legs. If they didn't know they had no legs, then they're delusional. But it's about how you choose to feel about it. And there is such tremendous power in that, that I know is true for me, but I think for many that we run away from. So there's this interesting paradox. Ayanla's fix my life. Yes, I must fix. And I want to know because Ayanla will tell me and she will give me the steps and the tools and then I will fix. Here's the secret. Here's the

plan. Here's the diet. Here are the seven steps. Here are the habits. Whatever the mechanism, we leave out the most important part, which is the easiest to access, which is your belief in what you choose for yourself. Why do we run away from the easiest, relatively, simplest, certainly, aspect of change. We avoid the star. Star stands for surrender, trust, acceptance, and relaxing. Surrender all of the mental attachments because craving and attachment and being driven, that is what creates the suffering. The mental.

So he said, I choose to. I choose to. So I don't have anything in that I'm telling myself this shouldn't be happening. I've surrendered. I've surrendered. This is what it is. Not that I've given up. I've surrendered.

Believing it should be another way, thinking it has to be another way. Trust. That's the next one. Surrender is the S. Trust. I'm going to trust that no matter what, I'm going to be okay. He said, I don't have kids. I don't have a partner.

You know, my business is in order. I've lived a good life. I'm leaving something behind me. I got friends like you that have call me until the last day. So I'm going to trust that things are exactly as they need to be and that I'm going to be okay. And so is everybody else when I'm gone. And then acceptance.

All right. If I had to pick this out of a hat, I probably wouldn't pick this, but here it is. And I am accepting it. I'm not fighting against it. Remember, struggle is the forceful or violent effort to get free of something, but I'm accepting that this is what it is. So I'm not going to fight it. I'm not going to call it bad or wrong. I'm not, I'm going to choose to be here, be in this. And then finally, once you surrender, once you trust, once you, okay, here we go. It's just that simple. But we avoid the star. We avoid surrendering because we want to control. We avoid trust or we think we can't trust because

we don't know what people will do. We don't know what's coming. We can't control it. We avoid acceptance because the human ego tells us this should not be happening. Well, too late it is. Okay. And then we don't know how to relax in the reality of the moment. We don't know how to relax in the things we can't control and we don't understand. So as long as we avoid the star of surrender, trust, acceptance, and relaxation or relaxing, we will suffer and we will struggle. Sometimes when internally or externally, there's a desire to dismiss that. It's therapy speak, self-help speak. But what you learn when you do the research is it's everywhere. These concepts are in every major religion. Certainly they're the foundation even of Zen if you don't want to

do religion. So there's got to be something to it because they're in every cognitive behavioral therapy thing. They're in every psychological dispos, array of tools. So there's got to be something to it. And yet we fight against it. And I see it in myself. And I think that the best attack on embracing the star is a Yonla. It's too late. Too much water under the bridge. Done too much bad stuff that I can't fix. Can't fix my life. Can't fix broke. It's broken. Not broke financially. I know there's always hope that things can get better there, but no. Too many bad things I've done. Bad things. Live with me. Legacy of pain. Relationship shattered. Never be what I want them to be. They know me for who I am and I know them for who they are.

I can't get past any of this. So what is the use of pretending? Because that's all it is, is a pretense of change when the reality is still there. You could put lipstick on a pig. It is still a pig. But it's a pig with lipstick. That's a different kind of pig. But it's a pig with lipstick. That's a different kind of pig. You know, two things, Chris, I want to say to you. Number one, remember suffering or the struggle. Some people are addicted to struggle. I don't care what it is. You can give them the way out and buy them a

first class ticket. They're not going to take it. They are addicted to struggle because they don't believe it can be easy because nothing has been easy're addicted to the struggle, it gets you high. You feel accomplished. You're driving through. But like you said, when so much stuff has gone on in the past, and again, that's the ego. That's the mind telling you, this is how it is. And because you can't control it, you'll go along with that. control it, you'll go along with that. Yeah, a pig with lipstick is a different kind of pig. It's a better pig. I swear, lipsticks makes everything fine, makes everything better. But it's really that person who's going to hold on to that. I've robbed too many people. I've done too many things. I've shattered too many relationships. They're heading for what's known as the dark night of the soul, where they're either going to face it and accept, they're going to go for the star. They're going to surrender those beliefs. They're going to have

to trust it can be different. They're going to have to accept everything that they did, forgive themselves for it, and then relax into a new way of being. And it's about how you think about it. It really is. I agree. And when I was reading up on the tour you're doing and the efforts you're making to help people fix their life, I was reading through. And I think that something that you're very good at

and it's not always easy to communicate, but your own life is a great demonstration of it. So that's helpful because, you know, you're one of the few people where it's actually true that you're getting better as you age. We say that, but that is very rarely true. It is in your case. So amen and, you know, thank God for you.

But it is the consistency. And so then I go down this road and I start researching and boy, oh boy, just smacks you in the face. Recovery. If you don't have a problem, you cannot do something for 90 days. Early probation phase, 90 days. The most common kind of romance, three months. three months. Any diet that you go on as a fad, three months. And that seems to be the line of change. Yes. That I can do this for three months, but then it's everything that happens after that. I mean, that's my concern even about the Ozempic and these weight loss drugs is I, look, I'm glad it's working for people. Anything that works, I have very little judgment in me as long as it's not unhealthy.

But what happens if you go off it? Well, I'm never going off it. At some point, somebody's going to make you come off it. Either it's going to be your pocket or it's going to be something health or it's going to be something practical. How do you teach people to sustain and maintain? It's a choice. It's a choice. It's too hard. 90 days is important. You

know, it takes nine months to have a baby. You go through that gestation period. So that nine is a very powerful number. Being able to go through that 90 days takes 40 days to change a habit. So if the habit is overeating or drinking or whatever the habit is, 40 consistent days of a new behavior or a new belief or a new activity will create a new habit. Then the next 40 days is to sustain it. So it's 40 to change, 40 to sustain, and then you're at choice point. You're at choice point. Choice is your power. And if you don't make the choice on that 81st day, that this is it. And the drug or rehab or taking the weight loss drug or going to the gym, that's only addressing one level. Remember I said there's the mental, the emotional,

the physical, the spiritual. So you take the drug, you lose the weight, but that's only dealing with the physical. If you don't believe you can maintain it, if you don't believe you can be thin or healthy or whatever it is, then you haven't, the mind will take you right back into the very thing that got you in the first place. If you haven't, the mind will take you right back into the very

thing that got you in the first place. If you haven't dealt with what it felt like to be overweight, or an alcoholic, or a crackhead, or whatever it is, what did that feel like? And how does the, what is the new feeling you're going for? And can you choose the new feeling over the old feeling? If you haven't the physical thing, I remember when my daughter passed away, her favorite place in the world, I don't know if this was a commercial, was Whole Foods. She loved Whole Foods. She would go to Whole Foods to buy a pack of toilet paper. I don't know why she liked Whole Foods. And when she died, I could not go to Whole Foods for three years. I could not walk in the Whole Foods. I see the

Whole Foods, I fall apart. Well, one day, she had been maybe four months after she passed away. I snuck out of the house because everybody was watching me like I was an egg that was hatching. I snuck out of the house and I went to Whole Foods. And I walked in Whole Foods, really nice Whole Foods. And they had the mist coming down on the broccoli. You know how they spray the vegetable? I saw the mist and her favorite vegetable broccoli and dropped to my knees and began to weep. And I crawled over to the broccoli and I was fondling the broccoli and the broccoli just snid down on the floor with the broccoli. I had broccoli spurs up my nose. People were looking.

Oh, my God. They didn't know what to do with me because I'm just weeping and clutching the broccoli to my bosom. And they didn't know, call the ambulance, call the fire department. They didn't know what to do with me. And I wept and I wailed and I wept and fondled. And then I got up, picked the spurs out my nose and left the store. You didn't buy the broccoli? No, it had been in my nose.

I didn't want that. So you just left it for me? I don't know. So what was that about? I was having the release of suffering on all four levels. The broccoli triggered the memory. That was the physical. The emotional of her feeling of her being lost.

Then having the physical touch of the broccoli. I had it on all four levels. And do you know I've been shopping in Whole Foods ever since? But if you only deal with one level, if you only deal with the mental, the thoughts, or the physical, you won't be able to sustain it. You won't be able to sustain it. That day, as a mom, having buried my child, that was a turning point for me. Because one of the things was, I never thought I could handle the depth of the pain.

So I walked around like this for three months until I could accept it was there, the thoughts, the feeling, everything. So whether you're dieting or stop drinking or gambling or whatever, you've got to deal with it on all four levels. Look, no shame in my game. I've been using AG1 for over five years. Why? It works, it's easier, and it's less expensive. That's why.

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but it shouldn't be. Thankfully, we now have HIMS, and it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment, and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why? Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments, and you do it right from your couch. HIMS provides access to clinically proven generic alternatives to Viagra or Cialis or whatever. And it's up to like 95% cheaper.

And there are options as low as two bucks a dose. HIMS has hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers. So if ED is getting you down, it's time to pick it up. Start your free online visit today at HIMS.com slash CCP. H-I-M-S dot com slash CCP. And you will get personalized ED treatment options. HIMS.com slash CCP. Prescriptions?

You need an online consultation with a healthcare provider. And they will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. You see the website. You'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan.

It's interesting. I've been revisited by that truth. This has been a really bizarre thing. I've been revisited by that truth. This has been a really bizarre thing. Like if I had the appetite for the rigor and for all that comes along with it, I'd really write up what I've learned during this time. I've decided instead to share it through the podcast.

I never talked about my life experiences, not because of some bogus objectivity standard as a journalist, but it was just, I never saw any value to it for anybody else. And I certainly felt no need for it personally. Like, I mean, you know, you don't know me, but even within my family, I have very little need for the assessment of others. I am hard to manage. I am not coachable. So I've always been, I went to a military school.

It was a bad fit. But, but, but one of the things that I have come to realize because very often things that are in the extreme become very instructive. So everything that I would say about what I was experiencing during this period was twisted to my disadvantage. I was talking to somebody and I said, listen, man, when you're in that place where you're being consumed by anger and negativity, whether it's righteous or not,

you've got to make the decision of how to get to a better place. Because if you're filled with that, what are you going to do? Kill yourself? Kill everybody else? No, you got to figure out what you're going to do. They take that quote and only use the, when I got fired, I wanted to kill myself and kill everybody else. Why?

Because it makes me less than. And it was a magic moment for me because I was like, and this is why I have to stick to my own reasoned choice, which is not my phrase. It comes from the Stoics. And all that can matter is how I feel about it. That's all that can matter because I will never get fairness and that's okay. And I'll never trust anybody else's assessment anyway. So if people told me you're good now, or this is good, or this is enough, I don't care what they say anyway. So it has to be internal. And it was a really interesting thing for me because I see that most people reject that. I want you to think I'm attractive. I want to

dress in a way so that someone else is happy. I'm going to put these heels on my feet and these shoes, even though my feet are killing me because these are the shoes to have. I said to my daughter, I see my daughter, she's fixing herself, fixing herself, fixing herself. I said, what's going on? She's like, this push-up halter top that I got is really uncomfortable. I said, well, why are you wearing it? She's like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, look at it. And I said, that's the price of beauty. what are you talking about? Like, you know, look at it. And I said, that's the price of beauty. Yeah. And it's so interesting because we're so sensitive to the external, yet we're always telling our kids, we're always reading in the books. We're always saying when we're saying the right thing to thine own self, be true, forget the haters, turn off the noise.

We say it, but maybe we say it so much because it's so hard to do. Yeah. Well, a couple of things. Number one, you are coachable. Otherwise, you would not have gotten whatever you got for yourself. That's number one. Number two, what you said about how people will take the little clip and use it to one up you. what you said about how people will take the little clip and use it to one-up you. That's usually the result of them not knowing how they would manage what you've already managed. Yeah. But here's the important thing, Chris, the very thing that you said, we're seeing it in the world, but we don't recognize it because we haven't done our own work.

This young man that shot up the mall, I want to kill myself and I want to kill everybody else. The young man who's still a young person that shot up the school, I'm suffering and I don't know what to do. So I'm going to take it out there because nowhere are we taught how to address our suffering. We're seeing it in the world and it's calling for us to do things in a different way. But because again, the separation, that was you, that was your problem. You had that situation. I'm not talking about my situation. Who did these people have to talk about? So it's really a wake-up call for the whole entire world that we, the way we handle stuff is obsolete and we've got to do it different. And let me say this, just this one, this one other thing. You said that how people took one thing that you said and used it against you. I want to give you another possibility

because it sounds to me like you know that the world is always rotating. Things are always coming back. One of the things that I learned from some of my deepest struggles is those watching me and those talking about me. I was their textbook. I was their Bible. And how they responded to me had nothing to do with me. It was about them. You're either learning the lesson, teaching the lesson, or the object by which the lesson is being taught. You got your lesson. How you did that was teaching other people, but how they interacted or looked at you, Chris, I'm telling you, it's coming back. They're going to have to face it. Somehow, some way, you may never even know about it, but that's just how the world operates. The law of cause and effect, the law of compensation, the law of correspondence.

So as we go through our struggle, not so much the suffering, because suffering is a different thing, but as we go through our struggles, remember, somebody is reading you. You are somebody's Bible. That doesn't mean you speed up your process to help somebody else. But also, in the sharing of what you learn, you support and educate other people. I realize, look, the feedback I get from people outside the media, the only problem I have with what I'm doing is that I'm still in the media. I really wish I could do it and share just so that somebody's getting the benefit of my travails. You know what I mean? That like, and here's why anger, you know, keeps, you know, working its way through my life. And here's why this, you know, it's just that I still

have to be in the media and be a part of this circus in this game. But the podcast has been a real game changer for me in terms of the level of satisfaction. I do not get the satisfaction, whether I was at ABC, CNN, or News Nation, which I'm very happy to be at. I love building something there. It's very cool to build a culture. Never done that before. But, but, but, a lot of people can tell you how to analyze this case, this situation,

what's happening at the border, all these things. There are a number of people who can do it well. I'm one of them. But being willing to open up about really an extraordinary life in terms of what I've dealt with and how relatable it'll be. Not that people will be like, I can't get it,

but that they'll be like, oh yeah, I got that and then some. Oh, is that what that expert told you? Or is that what you read? Or is that what you were trying and it didn't work? I appreciate it more than anything. When we do our comments here or people are coming at me on social media all the time and saying, I heard you with a Yanla star. Yes, I avoid the star. I avoid the star. I get it now. That means more to me than anything I've ever had happen to me as a journalist. analyst. Well, you know what? I want to offer you this little bit of coaching. I'll take it. Again, you are the, I use this term because I think our life experiences, the teaching goes so far to support people in eliminating struggle and eliminating suffering. So because you are the Bible, people are reading. I mean, a sacred life that's unfolding before them. I want to encourage you to consider not saying, I don't care, but instead saying, I make another choice. Because I'm hearing in your speaking

that you are choosing not to get caught up in the false headlines or the false, that's a choice. That's powerful, Chris. But when you say, I don't care, it's almost, you know, poo, poo, poo. No, but I heard it. I thought this, I felt this, I did this and I'm making a choice. That will be really, really helpful for people because sometimes people say, I don't care, but they're struggling on the inside because they do care. They just don't know how to talk about it. It's very hard. But I hear you say, I'm making a choice. I know this business. I know this industry and sharing authentically. There's nothing more powerful. authentically. There's nothing more powerful. There's nothing more sacred. There's nothing more sexy. There's nothing more intimate than when we share authentically as humans.

And it doesn't have to be proper English. And it doesn't have to be this way or that way. And because you're making a choice not to get caught up in how it'll be reported, not to get caught up in how it'll be reported. I hope you have an appreciation for how many people you will be supporting in their struggle and to eliminate their suffering by simply being authentic. I just think it's very sexy. Let me ask you, as someone who helps others figure out their lives, what is your personal experience with what is a consistent set of challenges for you? Well, a couple of things. I had a challenge last week. Well, a couple of things. I had a challenge last week. I was going out and my assistant was with me. And sometimes we do these little candid videos where she'll just video me.

So I got in the car and I did like that. And I look, Chris, I had a long white hair hanging off my chin. Now that's sexy. OK, you got to remember, I'm Sicilian. You know, all the women have that. The little black ones I know, it was a white hair hanging off my chin. And because one of the challenges I deal with is people always think you got to be on. You got to be on all the time. I couldn't go to the Dollar Tree with the gray hair hanging off my chin. And I didn't have car tweezers. I had never been taught about car tweezers. Ladies of a certain age have to have car tweezers. I

didn't have any. So that's one of the challenges, always having to be on. I create a clear boundary. I create a clear boundary. I'm sorry. I'm with my grandkids today. I'm not signing your book. I'm not. I had a very public challenge. You may know or not know about it, but back in the nineties, I was a part of Oprah's Fix Your Life faculty, myself, Susie Orman, John Gray, Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz. And because of my innocence and naivete, I made a statement to her that the people who were jaded by and involved in the industry thought that I was leveraging. I didn't even know what leveraging was. I'm Nell from the country. I don't know. I come out of the criminal court system.

What do I know? And it created an 11-year separation between me and Oprah. And in that time, what I learned and looking at myself and surrendering the hurt, the pain, the confusion, surrendering and trusting that it would be okay and accepting my part of what I did and what I said, not beating myself up about it, but I did this in innocence. I did this, this was inappropriate, blah, blah, blah. And then just relaxing. It took 11 years because I'm a slow learner. But one of the struggles that I deal with in this world today as a public person, people think nothing's supposed to be private. They think they got to know everything about you and they'll write everything and they'll say everything. And I just reach for the star. Okay. Well, all right. I'll tell you, I have gray hair on my hair. I got gray hairs on

my chin too. She's your chins and nicer shaped in mind. You say 11 years. Cause you're a slow learner. shaped in mind. You say 11 years because you're a slow learner. Well, then what did you figure out? That what Oprah was offering me at the time, I didn't think I was worthy of. So I had to blow it up. And I did. That's the bottom line. I didn't think I was worthy of it because I was in the doing. I was in the doing. I wasn't in the being. And she was offering me a way of being that I couldn't receive. I just wasn't worthy. And so what it looked, all the little details, who said what, and I did this, and Barbara Walters, and that didn't have nothing to do with it. I was not worthy.

I didn't believe I was worthy of it. So my subconscious ego, my mind had to find a way to blow it up. And once I discovered that, I spent, you know, seven, eight years understanding why I didn't thought I was worthy, think I was worthy. Where did that come from? How was I living it out in my life? And what was I choosing to do to override that? Once I got that, Chris, she called me on the phone. Hence, Iyama fixed my life. She called me on the phone. I, you know, 11 years later, I thought she had forgot my name. So you believe you're a person of faith, but do you believe in energetic dynamics?

Absolutely. Everything is energy. So you believe that there is a connection to your level of recognition. And I'm not doing this as some gotcha hocus pocus. I'm saying that you believe that there's a connection between where you got in your own mind and what actually happened between the two of you. Absolutely. I believe that because I worked for your father. I worked for your father. I was an intern in his office. I believe that the number of years that I've carried love in my heart for you, for your brother, for just because he was my mayor, he was my mayor, he was my governor, that that energy at this time would also bring us together. Everything is energy. Everything is energy and it all begins in the mind. all begins in the mind. So I believe that there was a destiny for Ms. Winfrey and I, which came out to be, I'm going to fix my life, which served people on this planet for nine years. And because

I did my work and because I reached for my start and because I made certain choices when it was time, it would have happened earlier, but I wasn't ready. I couldn't fulfill the greater purpose. Just like what you've been through, everything. There's a greater purpose than us just struggling and suffering. There is. And I think that you being on the podcast and as you learn more and teach more and share, men, men are going to listen to you in a way they would never hear me. Men are going to come to you and women are going to hear men differently. I just know it, you know. It depends how, I hope you're right, but it's also not vis-a-vis you because I,

I, uh, I see you as somebody who has tremendous value, so I'm no substitute. But I also think it's how men are raised. I was raised, I've never really known women who weren't strong. Like, my grandmothers were, of course, first generation, so they were ridiculously strong. And, you know, and a very kind of basic survival, hard. I remember my father's mother saying to me, she didn't speak English, but she was basically saying to me that, I heard your mother saying, your mother says you're not happy. Who told you you're supposed to be happy? And she meant it. She was looking me dead in the eye and said, you're here to do for your own and

do for others. You're not here to be happy. She says, happy's for puppies. And I remember, I was like, ah, damn, this woman's hard. I mean, I didn't say that to her because she would have smacked the taste out of my mouth, but I've only been raised by strong women. My mother is extraordinarily loving, but she is tough, as she would say in her dialect, furbo. She's shrewd and tough. My sisters are accomplished and strong and never needed a man to define them in any way, you know? So to me, I listen to women because I've always had them, I'm the youngest, I've always had them doing for me and explaining to me. In fact, I'll tell you an embarrassing story.

You wanna hear embarrassing, you think the white hair is embarrassing. When I was in college, I'm out with these guys after practice and I go into a deli and I order a girl cheese. And the guy behind the counter is like, what? I said, I have a girl cheese. And if you could put, grilled. I had no idea it was called grilled cheese. And I was in college because my sisters had always made them for me as kids because we were alone so much in the house. First of all, that's how stupid I am. But also it was just the conditioning of how,

I'm lucky that way, a lot of men aren't. And they only see women, you know, sexually or subserviently, you know, or, you know, there's that insecurity. So that's my hope is that anybody who can receive the message, and if it helps them to receive it by saying, boy, that Cuomo is such an idiot,

you know, I know how to do this. That's great. That's fine. A coach, you know how like sometimes when you're in an exercise class and the guy or the woman says, you're going to do 20 of these. And you hear in the class, oh. So this woman who coaches this class I go to is a great lady. And she will go up to people and say, when they're like, oh, God. She says, why are you here?

To be less strong? Do you want to be less fit? Is that why you're here? Or do you want to be more fit? And I was like, I want to be more fit, coach. Just joking around with her. And when I was walking out, somebody know, I was like, I want to be more fit coach. Like, you know, just joking around with her. And when I was walking out, somebody said to me, oh boy, I don't know how you do that. I said, this is exercise. This is easy. I said, I got to go home right now and tell

my son that the way he heard me, um, talking about what I was going to do to somebody, if I got my hands on him, that I'm embarrassed by that, that he should never be that way, that that is me at my worst. That's hard. I was like, these are pushups. Okay. I'll do pushups until everything cramps and I fall on my face. That's just physical. It's the emotional, it's the mental that breaks us, not the physical. But let me just say this, and this may not be for your mother or your sisters or your grandmother, but strong women suffer too. And more often than not, they suffer in silence because they haven't been taught how to honor their pain. They haven't been taught how to witness their pain. They're not willing to offer their pain. All pain needs a witness. offer their pain. All pain needs a witness. So what happens for strong women, ask me how I know, very often is we suffer in silence and it turns into other things. It turns into things that, physical things in our body. It turns into ways that we behave with ourselves. So for all of the strong women out there listening, yeah, you do

have a right to be happy. And you can be happy without the suffering. But because most women think that, particularly strong women think, you don't have to be happy. But I read a book by Arnold Patton called You Can Have It All. You can be strong and happy. You can be powerful and gentle as women and as men. So, so much of our suffering comes today, I believe, because the constructs that we're working in and the things that are obsolete, they're outdated, but we still continue to embrace them because no one is teaching us anything any different. So, you know, things like sharing your heart and then choosing not to be upset about how people respond to it. I'm sharing my heart, my story, my experience, because I'm trying to heal myself.

How you respond to it is not my business. But that authentic sharing, it's a sacred, intimate, sexy practice, being authentic. I agree with you. And I agree with your point about women and how they often don't benefit from standards, especially in our society. There's some change going on, but it takes time and a lot of it is circumstantial. And I just want to let people know that I think there are very few people that are worth an investment of time and practice, and you are one of them. And I came at you very direct and consistently because I wanted you on the podcast because I think you'll be a gift to my particular audience, which may not be a group of individuals as like, you know, more energetically political people than they are of a more cultural space. But you've got value.

You've lived it. You understand it. You're such a great combination of head and heart. And I appreciate you being a gift to my audience and coaching me up. Well, thank you for inviting me. My crush has been finally satisfied. So I'm going to leave you now and I'm going to go find somebody else to crush on. No, no, I need you. Anytime, anytime. And thank you, Chris, for the ways in which you have been authentic. I really, really appreciate that.

And I appreciate your contribution. It's just, it's a beautiful thing to see. If you can just reach for a star and keep understanding that the choice is yours about what everything that happens in your life means and how we're going to react to it. Easy to say, hard to do, but it's a little bit better to know that you're in control, isn't it? Thank you so much for being part of the conversation. Let me hear your comments and your feedback and I'll get to them as well. Subscribe, follow, check out the free agent merch.

I hope it works for you. Wear your independence and don't forget me on News Nation. You can look right up at the top of any of my social media. We'll show you how to find it near you, 8 and 11 p.m. Eastern. What do we do there? We get after it. See you next time.