The Chris Cuomo Project - Kara Swisher Talks Big Tech Billionaires, Trump, and TikTok’s Future

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

Kara Swisher (tech journalist and podcast host, “On With Kara Swisher and “Pivot”) joins Chris Cuomo to explore the political and cultural impact of tech billionaires, from Elon Musk’s ambitions for Mars to the ongoing debate around TikTok’s future. They discuss how social media is shaping democracy, the rise of oligarchy in America, and the challenges of holding platforms accountable in an era of rapid change, while reflecting on Trump’s influence on the evolving tech landscape. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Support our sponsors: Shopify Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at SHOPIFY.COM/chrisc Factor Eat smart with Factor. Get started at FACTOR MEALS.com/cuomo50off and use code cuomo50off to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. Oracle Right now, Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in HALF if you move to OCI. For new US customers with minimum financial commitment. Offer ends March 31st. See if your company qualifies for this special offer at Oracle.com/CCP AG1 is offering new subscribers a FREE $76 gift when you sign up. You’ll get a Welcome Kit, a bottle of D3K2 AND 5 free travel packs in your first box. So make sure to check out DrinkAG1.com/ccp to get this offer! #cuomo #news #tech #politics #trump #elonmusk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Like what's gonna happen with TikTok? I know someone who can answer all these questions in a way that surely I couldn't. You want to know who? Great. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Kara Swisher. You know her from all her work on the technology community, the business, the culture, her

work with Scott Galloway on their amazing podcast. She has unique insights to what Elon Musk is about, but more importantly, what he wants and what the other tech bros want and what TikTok is really about and what's most likely going to happen and like a dozen other things because this woman is D-E-E-P-D. So a conversation about what matters from someone who's been studying these people for decades. Kara Swisher, thank you for joining me. I've missed you.

Thank you. Yeah, you have, really? You think of me often? Yeah, but I don't have to think about you because I'm a fan of you and Galloway. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And I've been watching you recently. What matters to you? Right now? Yeah, about the political dynamic. What are you looking at? What are you looking for?

That's a good question. You know, I just want people to understand who these people are and what they're doing and what's happening here. Having had a history covering every single one of those people that was on display, and I'm using that term very clearly display, they were like, you know, the glass menagerie kind of thing for Trump. I want people to understand how they got there and why they got there and what's happening among and between them and what they actually,

what I think they actually want. They might say differently, but I'm pretty sure I've got a good bead on what they're up to I think they actually want. They might say differently, but I'm pretty sure I've got a good bead on what they're up to. What's the headline? Well, it depends on the person, right? Everybody, I mean, one of the things that really occurred to me when Trump mentioned Mars

on, in his speech, it was kind of a jumble of stuff in that speech, but Mars particularly is something Elon Musk has wanted to get to. And I went back to interviews that I'd forgotten that I had done in 2016 and 18 with Musk and recalling another one where he talked incessantly about getting to Mars. And in the first interview in 2016, he said something that was funny at the time where he said, I want to die on Mars, but just not on landing, which was a pretty famous quote for him at the time. And it was funny, but he really has this idea of that we need to get to Mars for humanity's sake. And so a lot of people sort of try to

guess what his motivation is. And some of it's malevolent. He's just kind of a jerk. But a lot of it has to do with getting to Mars. And what he's doing is getting Trump to back his greatest dream, which isn't money, which he has a lot of, which isn't power necessarily, but it's power to get to Mars. And so it was really very apparent to me to watch him react to that. I think that's been his goal the whole time in a weird, strange way. The word that is being said now is oligarchy. Yes, it's a good word. It's a little frustrating to me because the idea of corporate influencers and the gap.

Not new. Yeah, but new term for it, I guess. Do you see it? Is it appropriate now? I think it is because when you're talking about corporate interests, that's very different than wealthy people, right? This is these are like, you know, you can talk all you want about Jack Welch or the influence of Lockheed Martin But they were you know, pikers compared they know what 10 20 50 million, you know, if they had a hundred they were incredibly wealthy These people have been two hundred billion dollars four hundred

I mean Elon Musk's wealth has doubled from 200 and some billion to 400 and some billion. So yes, I would say oligarch works fine here because it's not just corporate. And then the companies themselves are trillion dollar, multi-trillion dollar companies. And so I do think it's appropriate because of the enormous personal wealth each of these people have.

And even someone that was standing there like Sundar Pichai, who was the poorest one there, has $1.3 billion, right? Tim Cook is a few billion dollars, and Zuckerberg, 200 and some billion, Bezos, 200 and some billion. Musk was in that range and now is in 400 billion. So it's just sitting there with a trillion dollars in wealth

or close to a trillion dollars in wealth. Is the problem the wealth or what it allows them to do to society? Yeah, I mean, if I was that wealthy, I wouldn't be sitting there on a cold, freezing cold diet. So Donald Trump using me as a prop, as a TV prop, I would be, and I always joke, I'd buy France and just be eating cheese all day.

Like, I don't know and just be eating cheese all day. I don't know. It's not the wealth, it's the power that it brings and the ability. In Musk's case, he's using him as a, these others probably wouldn't do this, but he's using him as a cudgel to people that get out of line, threatening primaries and things like that. That's the use of Musk right now, because he's more than willing to spend, and he kind of likes it.

The others, I doubt he could get to spend on his behalf against enemies, but with Musk, he's got his own personal ATM machine. What's your biggest concern of what they want? Oh, well, they want more of what they have. You know, not everything but not enough is the way I think about them in a lot of ways. I mean, they want no regulation.

And I think a good interview to look at is the one that New York Times did with Andreessen Horowitz. They didn't push back on him in any way, full of really wrongheaded interpretations of history, which he does, he's done for years around me and everybody else. And you just sort of, they just sat there and typed it essentially.

But they want no, they have an incredible victimization idea and you saw that today when someone from Fox News was saying how Zuckerberg told him he didn't like being called an oligarch or when you saw Zuckerberg complaining on Joe Rogan that some Biden administration official wrote him a testy email. I mean, honestly, Chris, you've written me more testy texts than I can say, I'm back at you.

But it's like, they're so victimized for wealthy people. And the minute you say a word about them, they melt or like paper mache or delicate flowers, whatever word you wanna use. Well, Rogan is that way too. For a guy who loves the hurt game and is a great commentator of MMA, he does not like anybody judging anything he says.

But more importantly, unlike you and me, although you have a solid base of people who support you, he's got a lot of people who defend him because he is some kind of symbol for them. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of sort of men of his type. I think it's, he has women fans. It's not true to be just men, but it's largely men.

If you were, probably if you did a demographic study, it would be a man of a certain age, right? Who just, I don't like being told what to do anymore. And the fact of the matter is they basically got to tell everybody what to do for centuries. And then for five seconds seconds they couldn't call someone the R word or the N word or the, oh no, we can't do that. We can't call, you know, we can't say boobs over and over again without getting slapped,

you know. And I think they get, they're like, we want to say what we want to say, you know. It's a very, it's a, it's a really, you know, again, for 27 minutes, they don't get to say what they want to say and therefore, someone just told me, you know, Sheryl Sandberg had lean in, we forgot that men slap back, right? Or hit back or something, whatever metaphor you want to use. I don't love using violent ones, but that's what's happening. So yeah, I mean, I think they, these people cannot take criticism.

They, they just can't. It's really laughable. Again, if I was this rich, I wouldn't care think these people cannot take criticism. They just can't. It's really laughable. Again, if I was this rich, I wouldn't care what people thought of me. Like, what do I care? I don't right now, but they definitely have a victim complex. Do you caution people who want to oppose what's happening

to pick their spots? Do you have any concern over the Musk salute thing that's all over the place and having people in high dungeon? I'll tell you, I think we can't react to everything they do. In Musk's case, I think he knew just what he was doing. He likes to troll people. He does it all the time. And everyone, it's kind of like with Trump, you know, you'd get and I get why people are upset by it because

it's upsetting and it does have real world implications because many years ago when he had when he was attacking the press over Tesla, he used to always relentlessly attack and I wrote him and I said, can you just lay off a little bit? They have their criticism of your Tesla and just live with it and and he goes, I will not live with it. And I go, well, your fans are kind of really crazy. Some of them, right. And they're very they have violent words and and he's I'm not responsible for my fans. And I go, you kind of are, like, you kind of are depending on what you do.

And so if I was someone in that level of fame, I would be very careful that I don't do something that looks like that. And I think everyone's like, oh, he's on the spectrum. You know, I have a lot of relatives on the spectrum. I've covered people on the spectrum. I've never seen that happen. Like they don't, it's an insult to people on the spectrum

to say they can't control their arms in some fashion. I think he knew just what he was doing. He likes to troll people. I don't necessarily think it was anti-Semitic, but it certainly was obnoxious. And I think he knew full well what it symbolized. I suspect he did. He'll say he does and he'll make,

my heart is going out to, you know, that. And in that way, you know, I kind of, the joke I made, and I think the best way to deal with them is to mock them in some fashion. I said, you know, when Rolf was doing that hand signal, the sound of music, his heart was just going out to the Von Trapp family. Like, give me a fucking break.

He knew what he was doing. I think you got to pick- He said it was a Roman salute, right? Yes. Well- A Roman salute is what the Nazis copy. That's right. You know that. So it's kind of the same thing. I don't look. I think it was probably an extension of the my heart goes out. Who knows? But my concern is if you go all in all on that, you miss what his father's saying. And I know that maybe they're estranged or whatever, but this Errol Musk, who I'm sure you've come across. I've encountered.

That's problematic for Trump. I have to tell you, his people, even over the course of the last few days, surrounding the inauguration, they don't like the Nazi stuff. They do not like that Musk put them in this position. They think it's stupid. And I'll tell you what it sounds like.

It has the same ring of the text that I had returned after Ramaswami's thing that he put out after Christmas. The same thing. Like, we don't need anybody around us who does, and then I would fill in the blank for them, what Trump does already, is that what it is? Well, no, Trump can do it. That's right.

Trump can do it, and Trump can do it. That's right. It's not like people always want fair, fair. There's no fair here. He get away with stuff that other people don't get. Absolutely. That's just the way it is. And I know sometimes on the left, they're always like,

can you believe it? I'm like, I believe it. And they're like, can you believe it? I'm like, I believe it. And they're like, can you believe it? I'm like, I believe it. He's done it three times. Like, let's stop not believing that he won't do it. And in some ways, it's sort of built into the way you look at him. And believe me, I don't like it.

It's bullying. It's mean. It's casually cruel. It's just cruel in ways that I find you shouldn't treat people like that. That said, that's me, right? I can't, obviously, you had parental issues. That's an obvious thing that you can look at there. But in Musk's case, Musk is not the show.

And one person in the Trump people said to me, said to Maggie Haberman, who then told it to me, in an interview I just did, was Trump is a one ring circus. There's not two rings, there's not two ring masters. And I think even though the only thing that's keeping Musk there at this point is the money and the population, you know what I mean? Like he can use him still as a prop and then draw in, he managed to draw in the other props because of Musk,

because they were like, hey, let's get, well, the getting is good. And so he's useful still, but look, Ramaswami's out, like out, if you don't, like, and it was interesting, because a lot of people are like, because he's brown person and Musk is white, I'm like, no, if Ramaswami had $400 billion, he'd be sitting right there and Musk would be on his keister out the door.

They have a weird, I guess the right word would be perverse irony that they act within, which is we know that this is what Trump does. That's different. You can't be like that around him. That's true. You take away attention. And that, you know, whatever, the logic doesn't work for me, but it still is true.

And in watching what has happened in this immediate flush, you have to believe that the first couple few weeks of Trumpdom is gonna be him pleasing the mega folk. And I know that I am not among the smartest people in our business. So if that's so obvious to me, I don't understand why once again, we see so many jumping at every single thing.

I get it. So it's the flood the zone thing Bannon really did. Bannon clocks a lot of stuff. He's a terrible, heinous person, but he certainly clocks it correctly. Is that you flood the zone, and it was so much shit and so much serious stuff, you can't tell one from the other.

So you're just like overwhelmed. And then what do you hit at? It's like, I don't want to sports person, but I suppose it's like throwing a million baseballs at someone, right? Which one do you hit? And then it always hits you. In there though, there are some really, like, I think letting those all, even JD Vance was caught

unaware because he, letting people with criminal violent records out was really disturbing. That was to me. I get it. Like, years ago, I mean, people don't remember this, but during the whiskey rebellion, George Washington let a lot of people off for their rebellion and violence because he's like, we all have to just move on. And even though a lot of people were saying, no, these people must be hung or whatever, he just was like, I get it, but move on. And so some of the non-violent people, terrible people, they shouldn't have done that. They probably should go to jail, but in the interest of moving forward, we probably have to let the nine ones go. People aren't going to like me saying that, but it's just, there's no way to move forward

without it. The violent ones should stay in jail, period. End of story. The ones who assaulted police officers, who planned things, who Stewart Rhoades is and the Enrique Torres, like come on. And that to me was, even though it's a lot of slop and nothing burgers that he was throwing, that one was really dangerous as far as, he's building his own private militia

from what I, I mean, in that regard. That is what is said. My feeling, look, and maybe I'm just jaded or maybe I don't see it as serious enough and I'll wind up being proven wrong, but my instinct is I'm waiting for what he does. And now some will say, well, that is what he does. No, that's a posture and he promised it.

And I have to tell you, the pardon power is one of the stupidest things in the Constitution. Including the Biden stuff. It's a race to the bottom. Yeah, and I don't know why they invest. I do know why. When you read the convention history, they were just used to a monarchy

and they had a hard time forgetting all those things and it was familiar, so they put it in there and we don't need it and it's always abused. But my concern is, there are gonna be opportunities. He's not talking about healthcare or prices for a reason. He's talking about- Did you notice that?

Yeah, he's talking about gas the way he is for a reason, which is pump, pump, pump. That's a good thing. I'll be able to show I'm doing it. He is going to introduce this country, I promise you this, to the concept of the world market of gasoline that people like you have been talking about for years when they talk about gas prices. And he's going to say, you know, turns out this OPEC and Russia, and they're all against

us. And I would have had the prices here, we'd have like a dollar a gas, a dollar a gallon, but they're killing me. So I did what I was supposed to do that Biden wouldn't do, but they're now screwing me. He's going to introduce the world market out of an article of convenience. So if you wait, you hold your fire, you're going to have opportunities to say, the prices are still high.

That's correct. And you didn't do it. And healthcare, you said you were going to get rid of the ACA, you can't, but you haven't fixed it. And my caution on that to Democrats is, you better work were going to get rid of the ACA, you can't, but you haven't fixed it. And my caution on that to Democrats is you better work with them on immigration reform, otherwise they're going to take the win. And that'll beat you in the midterms again.

So if you want to get to a better place for the country, work with them on immigration reform and hold your fire. What Trump says is almost meaningless, even as president. Well, you know, it's interesting, the feeling I got with a lot of these executive orders and everyone's like, Oh, no, look at him. I'm like, they seem weak, actually, like the tick tock one, he can't do anything. The the birthright citizen, it's going to be overturned. I'm sorry, it just is.

I think, you know, and we should have a debate about these kind of things. Of course, we should reform things after decades. And I'm for I'm happen to be for that, but we should have a debate, people who aren't, right? And there's certainly a legitimate argument to be made on all these, and some of these things, not all of them. But a lot of them felt like, wow, there's a whole lot of nothing burger there,

which he does a lot, whether it's a Bible or like a steak or a university. It's sort of this, like the TikTok thing, which of course I would pay more attention to, is literally all I have to look at is, Apple, you can't download TikTok. They're not, they don't take them seriously. They don't think there's a deal.

And so he has like, in that regard, he has three choices to change the law, right? Because right now, Apple and Google are paying attention to Congress and the Supreme Court, who they consider the power, right? There's now Apple and Google are paying attention to Congress and the Supreme Court, who they consider the power, right? There's a law, they're gonna follow it. They don't think Trump can protect them, nor do they trust him.

And therefore, it doesn't matter, he can't protect them. It doesn't matter if they trust him or not. And they will have huge fines. Amazon and Oracle have exposed themselves quite a bit financially. And it has a five year thing. So if there's another president in a couple of years, it's disastrous for a corporation to have to make decisions based on on this system. So he can't do anything there. So he's either got to get Congress to pass a new law

that's opposite to this law, which is really bad, right? It's that he's going to be looked like a China, a China toady. He's going to force China into doing it, to doing a deal. They're not doing that. They've got us over a barrel. We look like, as Scott says, non-serious people. And then the other thing is use what I call the Elon faint, which is sell it to someone who's friendly to China

and make it look like our national security is protected when it is not, right? When you sell it to a friendly person to China, but you don't really sell it and they continue to have control over it. Every choice Trump has here is bad and that executive order exposed every bit of it. The hypocrisy of the executive orders for his people

is that they talk about going back to the Constitution. So you wanna go back to the Constitution and you like that he just signed an order that flouts the checks and balances of the Constitution. And birthright citizenship is in the 14th Amendment. It really is, it's right there. And I will give you that there are people who believe the amendments don't count as much

as the seven articles because they were add-ons. And as ludicrous as that is to me as a lawyer, I get that you think that, but if you care about the constitution, you can't have a president who thinks he can sign a piece of paper and change it, because that's not the process. So there's hypocrisy, I get it.

There always is. It's just a little bit more obvious. The other part of the TikTok thing is, guess who had an executive order to ban TikTok? Him, 2020. Donald Trump. Honestly, and I actually agreed with him on those, on the national security issues. He was, he was right on that.

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Help me understand this. Every lawmaker I talk to, because you know the votes, we've never seen cooperation like that, right? Since the Iraq war. 79 senators. 300.

So much. It was like 85 to 11 in the Senate and whatever it was in the House. Everyone I talked to, they say, yeah, they took me in the skiff and they showed me, yeah, the Chinese are doing this. I said this, I said in a way that they're not doing it on the other platforms. Well, I don't know, they didn't talk to us about it with that. And nothing that you can share with people.

No, can't share it. When have we ever had a regulation like this that does affect First Amendment rights that is said to not affect them and no debate over it and everybody in government agrees. What am I missing about this? You're not missing anything. Actually, oddly enough, you're in sync with AOC

who made a very good point about this. She goes, what I saw wasn't substantive enough to make me wanna override the First Amendment. And that's why she voted against it. She goes, I would have been happy if they had shown me real proof. And I would have of course voted for it. But I couldn't because they didn't show me anything. That was one.

The second thing is why wasn't there a bigger, larger bill that dealt with all these foreign interference issues across all the platforms because those platforms didn't want their American platforms, they didn't want them to happen. Because these people are so like, as you could see, guess who was sitting in the front row? That's why they were sitting in the front row because they got to get out of it. All those, everyone there had one of those elements, right?

Whether it's Google or Apple or Facebook or Emetta. So yes, I agree with you, there wasn't enough proof, but I have a different point of view having watched. I had wrote a piece about this many six, seven years ago saying, I love TikTok. I think it's great. I use it on a burner phone because I just don't trust the Chinese. I don't. And not because I had proof. I just was like, well, if we were in there, what would we do? We would influence. We would possibly spy. We would definitely try to influence. And so that we don't know what they could do

is enough for me, like that they have the access to that. And we don't let them have it anywhere else in any media. So, and we don't let them have it with phones or chips or you know what I mean? We do it everywhere else. So why not here? That's that to me, you know, I don't really need proof that they can do it,

and they're so interwoven into, they have so much spyware within our cyber attacks on all our systems, our infrastructure. Of course they're gonna avail themselves to that, it just makes sense. So I get it, I get it. I just feel like I'm not more worried about China than I am about Zuckerberg and Musk and these guys,

because I feel they do it too. And if we're worried about oligarchs, then I don't know why they get a pass on this. And I don't understand why there's been no discussion of the user, even by the Supreme Court. In, there was no show of proof G, even by the Supreme Court. There was no show of proof. Gorsuch, in his concurrence, says, I'm glad we didn't look at that classified stuff because

it wasn't shown to the petitioner. So then this was based on government saying trust us. Agreed. Agreed. And who knows if they told him it was true. And nobody talks about the 170 million people and the 7 million businesses, the 23 billion in transactions? Of all the things here that's problematic, it's the creators creating entrepreneurial Nobody talks about the 170 million people, the 7 million businesses, the 23 billion in transactions.

Of all the things here that's problematic, it's the creators creating entrepreneurial things on this platform. And to me, they're the only people that really got screwed. You know, TikTok is owned by wealthy people, wealthy Americans, by the way. It's 15% as Jeff Yas. There's all these American venture capital firms. I mean, it's largely US owned, which is really weird to think about, but it's a Chinese company.

I would say, I guess you're right that they're the same, but they're not the same. And Mark Zuckerberg, in an interview with me in 2019, it was pretty disastrous interview because he was talking about Holocaust deniers or deserve their voice too kind of thing. And he got in a bit of trouble for that. But in that interview, he and talking about Holocaust deniers or deserve their voice too kind of thing. And he got in a bit of trouble for that. But in that interview, he and I had a exchange about China. And what Mark was essentially arguing was, Kara is Xi or me?

Like that was the, you know, it was like us or them. And I was like, I don't like any of you. Like, I got to say I like him less, but I don't like you that much either. And I think you're an information thief. You know what I mean? So you're using it to sell me, you know, like shitty products. They're using it to surveil and dominate because we're dominating on the world military.

You know, it's their way of like, you know, fucking with us from a military perspective. And I was sort of like, God, what a choice, you know, shall I have, you know, I don't know, a shitty food I don't like or a shitty food I don't like, like that kind of thing. And so he was, he was, that was his, that's always been Silicon, but we have to be the national heroes. And then the minute they can do a deal with China, they do it like they would, they'd sell your, you know,

Well, of course, China has none of these platforms there because they like to control, but it also is, you know, like many other things. But you know, remember our parents, how worried they were about television? I mean, the social media is so much more corrosive than television could ever be on its worst day. Totally, the boot tube. And I agree.

Yeah, right. It's heating your brain. It's, I think Governor Murphy, right. It's heating your brain. I think Governor Murphy, I know it sounds like Nanny State, but I think he's right to back banding the phones in schools. We did it in our school in Sag Harbor, the public school there. And I'm telling you,

I mean, my daughter can say whatever she wants. Everybody I know in that school who's on the teaching side is like, it's made our job so much easier What do they do? They do that? You know, I just interviewed today on the podcast and it's up right now the yonder CEO Yeah, those pouches. Yeah, that's one solution is physically we do the yonder pouches. They're really easy to break Yeah, I know they are but that's okay if you get caught with it's the whole idea Yes, you can't have fucking bones in the school. That's right.

And that's what our principle does is that, yeah, you can break the pouch. As soon as I catch you, this is a punishment you're not gonna like. And all the parents, some of the parents, I couldn't believe parents were against it. Well, I can't get in touch with my kid. I was like, go to the front office.

That's right. Go to the front office like we did. It was okay. I never got lost. This is what the CEO was talking about. He goes, it's called the front office. And you do not, you could also give your kid a flip phone,

but offer that to a kid, they don't want it, right? You could give them an Apple Watch, by the way. You can reach them on an Apple Watch. You can give them any manner of devices that you can reach them. I don't know why you need to reach your kids. Yeah, I don't get it. I'm someone who, my kids call me more than I call them.

And they're like, why don't you call me? I'm like, I'm busy. Like, aren't you busy? Aren't you in college having a good time? But I would, Scott and I, as you know, think that kids should not be on social media until 16. And recently I've just done an interview, someone you should have on is the mother of the kid

for character AI, who killed himself. And the character, this AI bot. Yeah, I did, you gave me the idea and I did it. Yeah, yeah, good, because really disturbing. Like disturbing, like that these characters, it's not user-generated content, it's something else that is really dangerous. No, and he fell in love with this AI thing

and he killed himself. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you like someone who never pushed back? And of course, the big reason that that didn't resonate, and I know, I know I'm not supposed to say this, but the kid's brown. And if it were a white kid, and it will be, unfortunately. There's several cases right now. There was a kid on the spectrum

who the bot advised them basically to kill your parents. Right. That didn't come off well. If you wanna use me more, you better do things to, like, these bots, by the way, these bots are only reflecting ourselves back at us. Yes. But it's still that the fact that this didn't alert the company, who then would alert the parents who, the fact that they're able to market to kids with cartoon characters, what

does it remind you of? Cigarette companies. That's right. Remember Joe Camel? Sure, Joe Camel with the penis nose. Yeah, the penis nose. Which I never really understood why you had? Cigarette companies. That's right. Remember? Joe Camel? Sure, Joe Camel with the penis nose. Yeah, the penis nose. Which I never really understood why he had to have that.

Anyway. Oh, really? You never understood? I didn't get it at the time because I liked Camelites and once I saw the penis nose, I was like, shit. Did you smoke? I never smoked. I loved Camelites.

I love cigars. I'm no longer a... I never really liked cigarettes. I liked the habit, but I never tolerated it Well, um, not that anyone thrives on cigarettes, but I didn't get the rush. It didn't help me I was just it just made it harder for me to breathe. So I got out of it Oh, they looked cool with the cigar. That's exactly right. Cigars I love that that's different

I don't inhale them because I'm not a Cuban woman. The the idea with show Why isn't the simple solution that he reincorpor idea with Sho, why isn't the simple solution that he reincorporates in America, and why isn't that what happened? With TikTok? Well, because it's a Chinese-owned company. Like, why didn't any Chinese company reincorporate here? But he is obviously invested in being here,

in moving things here. Why can't he just... The ByteDance CEO? Yeah, why can't he just dissolve it? He's a Chinese national. He's a Chinese person. Right, but they allowed Murdoch to get his citizenship in like six minutes.

Well, I don't think this guy wants his citizenship. The same thing with Jack Ma, which was really interesting is they, Jack Ma, an amazing entrepreneur in China, like they just disappeared him for a while. Right. Like they just, can you imagine disappearing Jeff Bezos for a while?

I mean, people are like, oh, that's normal. I'm like, no, no, no, what if we just put Jeff Bezos, well, he likes to be on the Insta, he likes to be on the socials a lot these days, showing off his pecs, but whatever, good for him. But I think you don't understand the level of control, whether it's control, it's the ability to control, and this country is a surveillance economy. We are a surveillance economy in a different way.

And certainly the government's been caught spying on citizens too. Whatever you think of Edward Snowden, that was pretty devastating what the government was doing. And, you know, I always assume the government's's mine on some level, but not in the conspiracy deep state cutaway. I think they just, they have the information. It's too good not to go after and it's convenient to do so. But I don't know, they're not going to make it a US company.

Mark Cuban, as usual, said the smartest thing to me about this, which was, Kara, at the beginning of this, he said, they're never going to give this up because once we get a hold of that algorithm, we can see what they've done. It'll be clear if they were spying or not. So if they were, we'll know by doing it. So nothing's happened because what they want to do now is buy it without the algorithm, some of the deals. But then it's just a brand. It's not the same thing. So what happens with TikTok? Do you think Kevin O'Leary buys it or something like that?

No. Come on, Kevin O'Leary. He's not serious. He was getting a lot of run at the inauguration weekend in terms of that's what's going to happen. I love that he talks about it, but there's no way it's not happening. I mean, I think there'll be some, I don't know, it just depends on the Chinese. I think there'll be some fake deal that he that Trump will wave his hands around, sort of hand out the Bennies to his friends like Oracle. He already did that in the first time Oracle was handling the back end. Probably Musk will be involved in some fashion because it dovetails really nicely into his AI stuff.

It would be very powerful for his AI stuff to get- Can you have him control two of the three biggest platforms? Be best friends with Trump and as a White House pass, sure, why not? I mean, this is transparent corruption that's happening. I mean, talk about the meme,'s the coins. That's like transparent corruption is all it is, is that you don't have to buy a hotel room at Trump Tower anymore, or go to his stupid golf courses. You just buy some of that coin and show them, you know,

who's your friend. And so, yeah, I think it could happen. I think it'll be hard for people like Mike Johnson or anybody else or any of the, he controls the SEC, controls the Justice Department. It'll be interesting, they have someone at the Justice Department, Gail Slater, who is great, has very well respected as an antitrust person. They might, all they have to do is point to Facebook and say, we have competitors. Like, you know, there's Snapchat, Facebook, Instagram, which is also Facebook, but you know, I think they probably could make an argument that it's fine.

I don't think the Chinese are gonna, I don't know. They'll make some fake hand wavy deal, but it's not gonna be Kevin O'Leary. It'll be more Elon Musk and possibly moving into the Twitter AI universe. So does that mean that TikTok stays? Not as it is, cause they're not going to let the algorithm go with it. The Chinese will not let the algorithm.

They'll have to recreate an algorithm in some way. So you'll get the Twitter algorithm, I guess, which is what I call a Nazi porn bar at this point. But you'll get whatever algorithm they choose to put on it. You do believe Twitter has changed, right? Oh, yes. I never was called names on the, I mean, I got the- Oh, okay, all right, good, good.

No, no, no. So what do you think, not that you're being called names, that I don't like, unless it's me, but what do you think changed on Twitter? Do you think they lost a lot of people, replaced with other people? Oh, yeah, oh, the numbers are clear. The numbers are clear. So what do we know?

I mean, who knows? Because it's a private company. Right. He could be making it up, and he's not the most generous people around. You know, I think obviously the numbers are down, people are moving to blue sky and threads and lots of, I think social media is dissipating in a way

that's really interesting. But I think he just, he games the algorithm. It's been well reported to focus on him, to focus on the people he wants to boost, such as white supremacists and other cagey characters. Do you think he can also make you get less reach if he can make you get more reach? Sure, yeah.

I mean, everything- Because I could be totally paranoid, but I've never had accounts go down, okay? Right, right. And now, and again, I don't really, it doesn't matter to me if it's one million, two million, it doesn't really matter. Most of what I do is in clickbait anyway.

I don't use it. I don't, it's not useful. It wasn't useful before. I'm okay with it, but doesn't really matter. You know, most of what I do isn't clickbait anyway. I don't use it. I don't, it's not useful. It was useful before. I'm okay with it, but I notice, like Piers Morgan, so I went back and I looked, and he gets good traffic, right? They like him right now. He's really ingratiated himself.

He's very smart that way, Piers, and I don't even mean to ascribe any animus. I'm just saying he's savvy. So he puts out this thing saying that salute was nowhere near what people are saying it was. And that thing has gotten millions of views. Of course, of course. And his stuff rarely gets that.

Because everyone wants to hear what Piers Morgan thinks on that topic. That's right. No, it's ridiculous. I mean, he does whatever he wants. He gamed it for himself. I find, listen, Twitter was useless before as a marketing vehicle, and now it's completely useless.

Like, I never thought it was very good. We used to have, our sites would always do better on LinkedIn or YouTube or Google search, but Twitter was never, it was just more of a vanity thing. It was fun and interesting, and now, I don't like being called names all day, and it's not useful to me, and it makes me feel bad. Why should, it doesn't help me.

That would be the only reason to use it, right? Or help sell my podcast. And I do think it's gotten, it's just not a good product. And one of the things Elon said very early was, if you're on it for an hour and you feel bad, you shouldn't use it. And I'm like, yeah, that sounds about right. I just don't think it's a good product anymore. And everything comes down to product, Chris.

It has to be a product you like, whether it's a cable show't think it's a good product anymore. Everything comes down to product, Chris. It has to be a product you like. Whether it's a cable show or whether it's a TV show or anything that you're making in media has to be something people like. Like to consume or hate consume. But it's not even a good hate consumption device anymore because there's all these randos that are just yelling at you. In my case, it's very unhappy men, but that's fine. Like, let them yell at someone else. I don't need to yell at me.

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by building compelling audio campaigns which actually work. Their personal approach, knowledge of the medium, is unparalleled. They believe in the power of radio so much they even use it themselves right here, right now. So help me understand this. I get the competitive basis for saying legacy media or even creating that term. I really see everybody except the, what you call randos in the pod space, people who have no portfolio. There's only one of them.

And it's not because he's on the left. I don't really care where people are on the spectrum. It's about what kind of critical thinking goes on. But Brian Tyler Cohen is the only guy I know who has no business talking about politics in terms of pedigree, who does a good job talking politics. He does.

Well, he's sort of the Joe Rogan of the left. He's sort of the Joe Rogan. Except that Joe Rogan is, wow, Carrie, yeah, I never thought of that. Wow, yeah. You know, yeah, I think that I will try I think the dye can cure cancer. Sure. Whatever you say. That's what I told the Harris people go on there and have her touch his arm Just once or twice. That's right. That's and then he'll be like I love you as you paid attention to me and they didn't do it

So other than and then him and again, it's not right left, other than those podcasts, obviously, I believe in podcasts, I'm hearing it's all my money, but these guys on the right, I believe are going to be replaced by better talent, I think like that. And Adam Carolla will have a resurgence, you know, he's one of the oldest, but Bill Burr and these kinds of guys are going to come in. What is Bill Burr? He's not anything. That's why he's great. Right, but I'm saying like that space of,

you wanna be angry about something? You wanna be pissed off about what's going on? Yeah, yeah, he's great. He's fantastic at them. Let a pro take you through it. Yeah, I think you're right. Instead of like Tim Pool or whoever he is. But here's my question for you.

So I get legacy media for him, for a guy with a ski cap on and a big microphone that's the size of his head, I get why he wants you to believe that the New York Times is meaningless. That's right. From the Russians. The idea of what you just said though, that social media is dissipating. I just heard that from one of the guys at the Wall Street Journal. That yeah, it's not us. We know who the Wall Street Journal is. I'm not gonna split into three things.

He's like, but all of social media is splintering and there's stratification on their end, not on what they're calling the legacy end, CNN, CNN. Maybe it gets sold, it's still CNN. What does that mean? What does that look like what's happening on the social media side? I kind of have a counter argument

and I kind of sort of in Barry Diller's camp on this, like you can't have a worldwide network of information and not figure out a way to sell it to people. I think right now the costs are out of line, say CNN where you used to work, the costs are out of line with the revenue. That's all, it's like, so let's get them into line and then they're not making products

that are differentiated enough, right? Like they're all the same, all the same product. And I think people get bored. Now it only works at Fox News because they have an audience, which is a diminishing audience, by the way, of old people. So they have a captive audience and that, and they, you know, it's sort of like being,

what would be an old person's, it's like the depends. They have the depends market all sewed up. Okay, great. That doesn't mean you're about the future. And so when I got into podcasting, I really think I did see, I do see a lot of things where we did, I did my blogs before everybody did these. Everyone now has the blog and the podcast. We did that 10 years ago because I thought how can you create businesses where costs are in line with revenues? And so my podcast has three producers. That's it. It doesn't cost that much.

And if you look at, which was really interesting, Scott does this all the time. He sends me every week. If you look at say news commentary lists, we're solid number five globally and all around us are right wing people. Like we're always right there. We're like, we're the little, I wouldn't say we're blue. I think we're blueish. Like we're definitely, you never know where Scott's gonna go.

But if you make a great, I just stick with this. If you make a great product and people feel good about consuming it, and I don't mean feel good. I mean, they feel smarter. They feel they've gotten some insight, even if they don't agree with you. They're like, that was a fair, accurate assessment

of what I know. And I didn't know that and I'm learning something here. I think you do well, period, period. And I think you're right. There's all these sort of, you know, randos that are doing stuff that are just noisy and I just think their product is boring. And I think eventually-

So you're in the engagement business, which requires an independent type critical thinker who's not looking to be co-opted. They are in the enragement business. Which works, which works. Which does work, but it seems to me that it's more fleeting. You know, and so many of them are low-rank comedians. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's a lot of them, yeah.

And some of them are good comedians. I love comedians. I think that they're some of the most articulate people in the society, but I don't think it's a coincidence that these guys are popping up on that side who are really just young men who are pissed off. And I feel like they're the ones who are gonna get splintered off,

because that's such an easy market to enter. I would agree, because they're copying each other. That's the other thing, is everyone's rushing to the contrarian side. Let's be contrary. Let's like, and tell you what's wrong with everything. I'm like, what's right? Why don't you talk to us about how to fix it?

Why don't you talk to us? I think the best thing for the Democrats is to start talking about what's right and what we can fix and what do you need? Like that kind of thing. And I think one of the one of the issues is that Democrats are talking about doom and gloom. Let's start like since they're all rushing to tell you the deep state doesn't work, your government doesn't work. Everybody knows this economy is one of the best economies

in the entire frigging world. Start talking about that. Start thinking about hope. It works just the same. You know who's gonna start talking about it? Who? Chief Buttigieg. Trump. Trump, yeah.

Trump is gonna say, look how good the economy is now. Oh yeah, of course he is. And he's gonna own the trend. And I say shame on the Democrats for not making the case. I would agree. But I think one of the things that's really important to make any product is you make a product that people value and want to pay for.

It's just like so cool. If you make shitty potato chips, everyone knows they're shitty and they want to eat them. I just don't know why it's so hard for media to get that and then put costs, even at all the cable networks, you know, as you know, you all made a lot of money as anchors, right? So at one point I was talking to one of the anchors at one of them, it wasn't CNN, and I said, what do you do in an earlier five million dollars? Like, I don't see five million dollars in revenue attached to you and then it has to be 10

because of your staff and everything else, like to market you. So I don't definitely don't see, I see maybe a million here, but I don't even understand. Everything I do is linked to revenue. Like I know if I do this, this happens, and then you can make better products. It's like, I know I hate to talk about news like a product, but, and then it has to be trustworthy. So people believe you and you have to be right.

Like when I was right about like what happened with TikTok, everyone was like, she was right. And I'm like, yes, because I spent 30 years covering this. I know these people, I know the moves they're gonna make and I do reporting. And I think same thing with columns and newspapers. Like I'm so sick of columnists that don't do reporting. Like do some reporting and then come to a conclusion.

I may not agree with your conclusion, but I know you went out and talked to people and tried very hard to get it right. And then you can have a really great discussion on the edges. Like last thing I say is I was on a Piers Morgan show with one of these comics and he just didn't know what he was talking about. And he just was like, mad, mad, mad all the time. Like that kind of, and I have three sons. I know about this. I know these people. Like, and by the time. And I have three sons. I know about this. I know these people. And by the way, my sons wouldn't behave like this. This is a grown man, whining, just whining his ass off.

And I started explaining to him, actually, I'm like, no, actually this, no, actually this. And I said, this is exhausting having to school you on information that you can look up on Google or anywhere else. And I was talking, he goes, you're over talking. He goes, you're talking over me. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, honey. And I called him honey.

I said, I'm so sorry, honey. Did I over talk you? I'm sorry. You're not very smart is the thing, but you're getting by on looks. And he just thought like, he was like, he's like, how dare you objectify me? I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, I shouldn't because you're not that good looking. And I just kept going. And it was like, they can dish it out,

but they cannot take it. And they don't expect it from someone who's more liberal, right? Right. Like, that they don't. Well, the reason they can't take it matters. And I don't know what to do about this. One of the things, and I agree with you,

and it bothers me because I'm not good at it. I always say, I ask questions for a living. I'm not in the solutions business. When people ask me, well, what should we do about it? I don't know. I mean, if I knew that's what I would be talking about, I just know that it shouldn't be talked about the way you're talking about it. Otherwise it'll never be self.

But I know why they feign outrage and offense, umbrage. Here's why. That is the currency in digital media for motivating revolt. They have to be victimized. You have done me dirty. You are part of the establishment, the elite, what we used to call in classical literature the oppressor.

You're the oppressor. You've oppressed me. And you know, you check several of those boxes for these guys. So they have to be. So the- I don't know when I oppress them. No, no, no. I'm not saying that you oppress them.

I'm saying you check the boxes of who they want to say oppressed them. Yes, that's correct. And here's the paradox. I thought you were a tough guy. That's right. I do that a lot. I thought you were saying that you're going to kick my ass. I mean, they say I get it all the time until I'm in person.

And here's the difference between men and women. I say this to my daughters all the time. I wouldn't write that to you. You look pretty fit. If a woman is upset at me about something, they walk right up to my big nose and light me up. They do, I bet they do. There's never any question about my stature

because they're figuring I'm a human being and a male, so it's not like I'm going to see them like another guy, you know, who's walking. They'll walk up and be like, when you said this, I didn't like it, and you should know, 100%. Men, I'm telling you, Carl, men, 90% of the time, they look at me and they say the same thing.

You're bigger than I thought you were. Oh. As if they've somehow been deceived. Like, shit, I didn't know that this was what I was gonna have to beat the shit out of. Cause that's all they say to me is, fuck you, Fredo, I'll beat your ass. All the time, no matter what it is.

But it's fundamental to them. If I say anything to them or anything, you're coming at us. This is what you do. Now we in the 10%, they call themselves, I don't know what 10% this is, but the 10%, we were always right and we're coming for you now. I don't know what 10% this is, but the 10%, we were always right and we're coming for you now.

I don't know who the 10% is, but I do identify the dynamic and I see it even in Trump. Trump has to be at once indomitable and constantly dominated. Everybody's getting him all the time and they even shot him. This is how much they come after him.

That is as important as anything about him. The question is what to do about it. What do we do about it? Well, I think, I don't know someone like that. He's old, like he's not changing. Like something happened to him in the youth. And one time there was one tech executive who was that way, like kind of that way and was always trying to dominate.

And I went up to him and I said, you know what? Your parents, I think your parents are dead. I think their parents are dead. And I said, your parents aren't living and they're not gonna hug you anymore. And I know you didn't get enough, but you need to fucking step off of me. Like, I'm sorry you didn't get hugged enough,

but time's passed, get some therapy, move along. And I think, you know, I'm sorry you didn't get hugged enough, but times past, get some therapy, move along. And I think, you know, I think at some point things do change where people cannot be in a constant state of agitation. And I think Trump would be very smart not to cause, as you know, for an Italian word, because my grandmother used it all the time, was agita.

Agita, like stop causing agita. You're causing me agita. My grandfather used to always walk down the street, he was a tough guy, his name was Sharkey. And he would go to people, Ajita, like stop causing Ajita. You're causing me, my grandfather used to always walk down the street, he was a tough guy, his name was Sharkey. And he would go to people and he goes, you're causing me Ajita, I don't like it. Like, and they'd stop because he was kind of a, a scary kind of looking guy.

But I think, I think there's enough Ajita. And I think at some point people are, are not going to take it well, especially women, by the way. I was in a weird incident today. The reason I was slightly late today was a UPS truck or a FedEx truck, I don't remember, stopped in the middle of the street and a guy was delivering mail.

He blocked everybody, just blocked everybody. And he just was like, and he was right near the edge so he could have pulled back or pulled over, but he didn't. He blocked everybody. And so all these people are trying to get their kids near the school and they were like, what in the actual fuck? And all these women, he was like, I'm not moving,

I'm not moving for you, I'm delivering my things. You could move backwards. And these women were like, you fucking move backwards or we're gonna take you apart limb by fucking limb. Like it was great. And I was right there, I was like, yes, yes, what she said. And it was really interesting because I think this guy had sort of, and the one lady said, you know what, you're not Donald Trump, back up.

Like, it was like, you're not pushing me around. So I think there is a countervailing feeling. And it's not like pussy hats and we're going to get you. It's this sort of like, just as you have a countervailing feeling of violence towards you, you have a countervailing pushback. And I think that is probably where we're going to go. And the democratic leader of the future

has to fight a little bit and it'd be a little tough. And at the same time, give you a sense of hope, right? Which Obama did in many ways, right? But I do think there's several really good Democratic, I mean, everyone's like hopeless in the Democrats. I'm not. I've met all of them. What are you like? Oh, a lot of the governors, a lot of the governors like, you know, Jared Polis, I like Andy Beshear.

I like, I think I like elements of all of them. Gretchen Whitmer, I think is really interesting. I very much think Pete Buttigieg is onto something, like onto the way he talks to people, is really interesting. You know, I'm not, Fetterman I go in and out on, but I see what he's up to. I see his, like I'll talk to, like I'm the regular guy. What about Shapiro? Love him. I did a great interview with him. I think he's really interesting. He's brainy. He's very, you know, he gets things done. And if you can be like, if Democrats can show themselves doing well on governorships around and including mayorships, Dana Lurie just got elected in San Francisco. I like London Breed. I thought she was handed a bag of shit and then was told, oh, look, you improved

the bag of shit, but you didn't get rid of it. I was like, she was handed a bag of shit. That's how it is in politics, she was handed a bag of shit. She did a pretty good job. That's how it is in politics though, you own the status quo. That's right, she just, the pandemic, she did an excellent job and had the right instincts, I think, around crime and a lot of stuff.

My favorite in that field is a name we haven't mentioned yet, Maryland Governor Westmore. Westmore. That guy checks every box. He does. Well, Republicans are telling me that thing about the military is a weakness, where he said he was something,

I didn't follow it that closely. There's some controversy around service. I don't know, I mean look, he definitely served. He was definitely in combat and that's enough. What happened when he was there, he's gonna have to be held to account for it. But, you know, they're lifting up Hegseth. Anybody who does five minutes of research on military,

and I am not, these guys have kept me alive in bad places more than once. But if you are in a command position, and you are in theater, you're in a kinetic combat zone, you almost always get a bronze star for that service. And I'm not saying you don't deserve it. The demarcation is whether it has a V chip. The V is for valor, meaning that you did something

in the combat that warranted the distinction. And if he can be secretary of defense with what is a very basic pedigree for those kinds of guys, then Westmore is fine times 10. There's a lot of, I think that it's not true. Democrats may be in disarray, that's their favorite thing, but I do think there's a lot of really promising people. Maurehealy is so liked in Massachusetts,

and it's not because she's super liberal at all. She just gets stuff done there. I don't know how she's doing right now in her term, but the mayor of Boston is a badass. There's all these really interesting, she just had a baby, they were talking about her, she's going back after maternity pretty quickly, and they were talking about it on a radio show. She calls in, she goes,

so great you're talking about my fucking maternity leave, let me tell you what I'm going to do. She was just like, she owned it and she wasn't being victimized. There's a lot of really interesting all across the country, all across the country. I do like how Gavin Newsom's punching back at them. I don't mind that at all. He's not putting up with any shit. And you could criticize him too. Yeah, he got a, you know, look, he's a mixed bag and that's not unusual and it's not a criticism. He's gonna have to find his lane and circumstance

and the burden of the Democrat has always been to be better. I know the Republicans will yell at me and say, no, you guys are the most vicious. And I understand why they say that, but a lot of it is gamemanship that they're saying that. And Democrats have to be better and outrage is exhausting and people are gonna want something because it's not gonna move the line.

And that's why I believe that it's really important for Democrats if they wanna be productive right now is they gotta work with the Republicans on immigration reform. And I'm not saying that as a partisan because I really hate the parties. If I could change anything, I would do what Washington said, get rid of the political parties.

Right, well, that's not happening, Chris. Don't let them, well, they're not in the constitution. They're not creatures of law. They're just tradition. No, I'm just saying it's just got to change. I think, you know, I love these, these primaries, the ones where- Ranked choice. Ranked choice. I know there's issues around it. I've read a lot about there's different problems, but I got to say it always seems to happen upon a person everyone feels okay with. That's right. Like it sounds, and it would,

I think it was Jeff Zucker who said this, something I was at, he said, the real problem, the things that have hurt our country are Robert Murdoch, gerrymandering, and social media altogether. And I thought that was a really smart assessment because gerrymandering makes it so reasonable, people can't be reasonable,

and therefore all these Republicans had to pretzel themselves into ways like someone like Ken Buck, he left Congress. Listen, this guy and I are so far apart on so many things. I enjoy talking to him. He's a sensible conservative, but has some crazy stuff too. Like I'm like around COVID, for example. But he was someone you could deal with And he learned himself up on social media. He learned himself up on tech power. And he was like, what in the actual fuck care with these people? And I was like, thank you, Ken. Thank you. What in the actual? And we came at it different ways,

but we ended up having a really great dialogue. And then he left and he partnered with a guy, Dave Cicilline from gay guy from Rhode Island, couldn't be more blue, the two of them put out a report that was fantastic together. Yeah, I know him. I've interviewed him a bunch of times. Literally the most unlikely pair.

There's all kinds of people like that across the country, both Democrats and Republicans, that really had to pretzel themselves in certain ways. I think the Republicans more than the Democrats. And the Democrats just scream all the time, at each other and this and that. But the Republicans have had to really mutate themselves in ways that kind of reminds me of,

just how you mutate your body or you mutate yourself. And I think that's the real danger. Trump has an opportunity to not do that. He won't take it because he's a really limited person. But there is a countervailing force, I think, coming. And you could, and the same thing with media. As everyone's moving, tacking right, tacking let's tell you what's wrong,

there is a huge wide open space for saying, let's tell you what's right, and let's talk about how to get there. And I think that, in that way, center and center left media can really reassert itself in ways, as long as they're not scream fasts and you know that on cable, the yell thing.

I wrote you when you did that great mayor thing when I was watching. What did I do? I said, this was something I learned about me. You had a Republican mayor, you had a Democratic mayor. I learned so much in that thing. I loved it. And I wrote you.

I was like, you're like, I can't believe someone's watching. I was like, no, like, I can't believe someone's watching. I was like, no, this is the kind of stuff that was helpful to me, you know, as a person and as a consumer of that stuff. And there has to be more of that. And I'm sure people love it, I know they do. Yeah, we've been doing that stuff.

We've been doing, I hate that we call them town halls because everybody uses that term for everything now. But they're just penetrative single issue dives on things that are based on people who are doing whatever that is that we're talking about. Right, exactly. So look, you, I appreciate and I like, and anything I can do for you at any time,

I'ma call it. Remember, the funny lesbian. That's what you want. Any time you want a funny lesbian, you have it on, and then it upsets them because they're like we don't Ten layers deep on everything you talk about and that's the thing. Thank you. Thank you Anytime you have any any tech tech questions, you need help fixing your phone you call me. I Told you she knows and

what's really interesting is that the possibilities in front of us are so different than what we're led to believe. This media is dead. This media is everything. Neither is true. What is the future? The future is the same as the past, meaning what? Either people believe and want, or they don't. Either people are

inspired and motivated or they're not. It can be light, it can be dark, it can be good, it can be bad, but ultimately it's always about following the money just like the sirens indicate. There's an emergency afoot. Follow the money, follow the power, and you'll find your way to what's actually happening. And Kara Swisher was very helpful. Thank you very much for subscribing and following, for checking me out on News Nation, 8P, every weekday night, where we will be pushing for action that solves the problems that we all know exist. What do you say? Let's get after it. And as part of that, wear your

independence, get your free agent gear, and if you don't like the podcast ads, subscribe on Substack. It's only 50 bucks a year, five bucks a month, if you want to pay more than the per year price. And you'll get my whole fitness body reclamation project that's going on there, as well as dealing with my long COVID. Cheap, cheap, cheap. That's value.