The Chris Cuomo Project - Kevin O’Leary and Matt Taibbi on Power, Money, and What’s Breaking America

Episode Date: February 8, 2026

Chris Cuomo highlights key moments from this week’s Cuomo Mornings on SiriusXM, bringing together two conversations that cut through noise and ideology. Kevin O’Leary joins to break down the reality of the U.S. economy beneath the headlines — from tariffs and affordability to why small businesses are getting squeezed while markets stay near record highs. Cuomo presses O’Leary on whether Trump’s policies are helping everyday Americans or quietly undercutting the very entrepreneurs they depend on heading into the midterms. Independent journalist Matt Taibbi follows with a wide-ranging discussion on press freedom, political instability, and the dangerous incentives driving modern media. Taibbi explains why journalists don’t have special rights under the law — and why that makes government pressure on reporters even more alarming — while Cuomo challenges both parties on escalation, outrage economics, and leadership failures fueling national instability. Callers also dive into press freedom, the arrest of Don Lemon, and growing concern over how far the government can go before journalism itself is treated as a crime. Join The Chris Cuomo Project on YouTube for ad-free episodes, early releases, exclusive access to Chris, and more: https://www.youtube.com/@chriscuomo/join Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Get the right life insurance for you, for less, and save more than fifty percent at https://selectquote.com/chrisc Refresh your wardrobe with Quince—go to https://quince.com/cuomo for free shipping and 365-day returns. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

talking about the economic realities here in America, what matters and why people should believe that the Trump administration may be doing the right things for the many instead of the few, which I don't agree with, but it's not about what I think. It's about what we know. Kevin O'Leary joins me. You know him, one of Dusty's favorite people, Mr. Wonderful, from Shark Tank. It's good to have you, friend. Great to be here. Thank you very much for taking the time and the opportunity. How do you see, I was making the case before you came on,

that all of this division and clickbait is distracting us from economic data that just came out again to reinforce the idea that America is struggling against a K-shaped economy, which of you, of course, know what that is, but for the folks getting where they got to be this morning, just a quick reminder, K-shaped looks like the letter K, one prong going up, is the few, the top, doing better, on the curve and the many are lagging behind. How do you see it? Well, we've always had economic disparity for 200 years in America as a democracy because the economy is built on the fundamental

engine of entrepreneurship. The idea that one-third of the population creates the jobs for other two-thirds is a proven model. Not everybody can be an entrepreneur. Not everybody should try and become one, but the ones that do create companies, some of the them become behemoths, you know, talk about SpaceX merger with XAI. That's a big deal. That's an entrepreneur named Elon Musk. Everybody knows who he is. But the majority of jobs in America are created by companies between five and 500 employees. And so that is 64% of job creation. When you add in the use of supply chains, because they work with giant companies like Amazon to move their packages around, it accounts for 72% of jobs.

And so America is really fueled by men and women that have the you know what's to get out there and risk everything to start a business. Now, you're talking about a theory that would have people hold that against them. And this is where I come out and say, this has nothing to do with politics. the fundamental engine of success of the entire most successful economy on earth is that man or woman that creates something from nothing. To ever touch that, to ever mess with it, to ever try and change it is a huge mistake because the number one export of America is not energy or technology. It's the American dream. I don't see people drowning themselves trying to get into North Korea, Cuba, Russia, China. They all want to come to America where you balance entrepreneurship with freedom.

That's it, my friend. That's the best speech you've heard all morning. It's also the only one. But let me ask you this, Kev. How do you square what you're saying or reconcile it with what I keep seeing in the data, unless you can tell me I'm seeing it wrong, that the tariffs have been crushing exactly what you're talking about, small businesses, the heart, the dream in America, that they are not as resilient because they don't have the pockets of the big shots. And the data keep showing that small businesses have been getting crushed by these tariffs. And isn't that the group that Trump said he was going to help? Yeah, you're bringing up a good point.

So let's drill down on that. You know, I don't shill for politicians. I shill for policy. Politicians come and go. Policy has a lingering effect, either good or bad. And so let's talk about this tariff policy. The initial concept of tariffs, originally back 50, 60, 80, 90 years ago, and they first put in place after the Second World War was reciprocal tariffs.

In other words, if you're selling an American tire for a car in Switzerland, they whack it with a VAT tax, a value-added tax of 8.3%. The Swiss government keeps that 8.3% that they added on to the American tire. And so back in those days, what would happen is the government here would say, well, if the Swiss are charging us 8.3, we'll just whack on a reciprocal taff 8.3. And the entire economies work just fine. Same with Australia, England, Canada, you name it. Those countries have value-added taxes, VAT taxes. We don't have that here. We don't like value-added taxes, consumption taxes. We do something called a tariff. Now, when things went a little wonky is when this administration decided to use tariffs as, let's call it tariff warfare, punitive tariffs, when they slammed on 50% tariffs onto Canada and Mexico for a thing. Remember that one? So right now, those tariffs are sitting at 25% because there's a little bit of a poo-poo match going on between the Prime Minister of Canada and the President of the United States.

And that's just what I call negotiations. Same with Mexico. But here's the problem. When you tariff something you don't have, let's take potash, fertilizer. It just happens for geological reasons. It's all sitting up in a Canadian province called Saskatchewan. Now, you don't have it. You're a farmer in North Dakota, and you put a 25% tariff on potash.

You've just made the cost of food go up that you're referenced in grist. So what has to be done is a little fine-tuning. pineapples, bananas, we don't grow them. Why to put a tariff on them? Anything, boxite for aluminum, we don't have it. So why would we tariff it? That's the fine tuning that has to happen before midterms if you want to see all this inflated cost go down at the kitchen table. And I think that will happen because the administration has figured out just like you have that it is killing and hurting and putting the squeeze on small business. If you could tell the president, midterms are coming, this is what you need to do because the economy is going to be the narrative, no matter how much

you're trying to distract us from it. He's done a pretty good job, to be honest. And of course, we're helping him distract because the media jumps at every instigation. But what do you think the biggest problem is that he is going to own in the midterms? The concept of affordability, number one, that's going to be about 50. 50% and the other 50% health care. These are the two issues he faces rolling. Related. Yeah.

I mean, they are related. There's no question about it. But pretty well he's got everything else under control. He can boast and the administration does it every day that they have created a remarkable market. It's near its all-time highs. It's only 2% off. The S&P 500 is a measure of the American economy, the engine of success, if you want to call it that, is at all-time highs. And so, and that's multi-sector, that's 11 sectors.

You can't criticize that. But affordability and health care interrelated, as you pointed out, are the big issues. So he knows that, his whole administration knows that. They're going to have to get to work on it, or they'll lose the house. It's that simple. And they're not stupid. Everybody that's counted out, Trump, listen, I'm not an advocate, you know, for, me people say, oh, you're MAGA.

I'm not MAGA. I'm a policy guy, 100%. A very fortunate policy guy because they get to walk on the hill, go to Washington. Everybody takes my meeting because they want a picture for their kids with the Shark Tank guy. And they know I create jobs. I create blue jobs, red jobs, I create jobs. I get 52 investments in small entrepreneurial companies that create jobs. I do it sec to wireless charging, to greeting cards, you name it, I do it all.

So the point is, for me, what's going to happen next is this administration is going to focus on affordability and health. care. Watch it happen. Well, I hope so. Of course, it gets really tricky because it doesn't get tricky. It gets tricky because they're going to have to use tricks because to do it right means to take on the people that have the most power and get dictated to the least, which is the health care companies. Nobody has more money in the economy domestically, more jobs to provide, more lobbying dollars. you know so this is why they were able to get congress to pass a law that they're not allowed to negotiate with them on drug prices because that's what kind of sway they have the only thing i want you to clarify for us kevin i appreciate you being with us this morning on serious 124 the potis channel

you say the s mp 500 can't argue with that well here's the argument it ain't 500 you are almost umbilically tied to AI now in the form of about seven companies that are almost half of the S&P return? You're right. We have concentration in tech, but that's always been the case. They're the fastest growing companies, the fastest growing earnings with the most potential. So you have big swings in what is valued at any one time in the S&P 500. But here's why I'm right. If you took $10,000, $25,000, years ago and you just stuck it into the S&P 500 and you never touched it. I got it. You could retire now.

You don't care which companies in any one. No, I agree. I agree. I'm just doing it in terms of policy. It's very hard. I'm with you. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I look at it and say, that's what I do.

You know, I don't pick individual stocks. I own the indices. And, you know, I learned my lesson a long time ago. Stock picking is very hard. Yeah. Everybody tries it. Everybody gets slaughtered. then you figure it out.

Just stick it in the SP, don't worry about it. And that's how it works. And I'm very happy with the outcome. I'm very happy. Yeah. No, no, I get it. It's just, you know, the investor economy is very selective, right? You only have about 40% of the Americans that are in it.

And even that's a generous number. Well, give Trump some credit on that $1,000 birth kid deal. He just put out the Trump account. Everybody was poo-pooing on it. I love that idea. And Michael Dell, I sat beside him. He put in $6.3 billion. I know. I like that part. I like that part. Criticism where these rich guys don't give back is complete BS.

Look at what Warren Buffett did and look at what Dell is doing. You know, we treat these people out of California. We chase them out of the United States with these crazy taxes. They create all the wealth and they give it all back. What are we stupid? Well, I don't know that they give it all back, but those two guys have done a very nice thing and so have other guys. And I do think that should be encouraged. I think most of how we treat the wealthy should be. an incentive structure. And by that, I mean, on the corporate side, as you know, Kev, but as most of you should know also, the biggest tax break that corporations get under domestic law is on health benefits. They get a dollar for dollar deduction. You know, you want to deal with

health care costs, put a cap on there, on what gets deducted for the corporation, that, you know, you're going to get your deduction dollar for dollar up to this. And it's going to be a formula based on how many people you have working for you. And then they'll start negotiating differently. If you were to say to them, if your workers make a certain percentage of your productivity, this is your tax rate. If they make less than this percentage, this is your tax rate. That's just a choice. And you can say, yeah, but that would slow down the corporations. Well, you know, corporations are doing great.

The people who work for them are not doing anywhere nearly as well. Something that's got to be addressed. Chris, hold on. The corporations hire all the people. They provide the incomes for them to raise their family. I know. I know. We shouldn't tax corporations at all. We should tax the people that work for them in a fair and graduated basis.

You know, it's ridiculous. You don't pay them enough. Well, I'm happy to pay them more. I let the market be the market. You know, I have all these companies that are trying to figure out how to make a profit for their shareholders and take care of their customers and take care of their employees. It all works together in a wonderful economy, an entrepreneurial economy that's worked for 200 years. Anytime people criticize the American dream, I go out of the American dream.

of my mind. And I always say, show me where you want to live. Well, that's different. That's different. Well, I rest my game. A lot of this world, a lot of this world is broke because it's basically an extension of a feudal system. What I'm saying is the American experience is, has changed for the many. And the reason for that is the difference in pay and productivity. And it was a choice structure and it's still a choice structure. I got to go, I got to go to a break. But Kevin, you've been really generous with your time and I appreciate your arguments and your intelligence and your acumen and your flare. So thank you for bringing it to us here this morning. Anytime Chris, enjoyed it immensely.

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Just go to selectquote.com slash chrisc. Yeah, that's right. I said save more than 50 percent on term life insurance at selectcote.com slash chrisc today. Selectquote.com slash chrisc, one word. Local news is in decline across Canada, and this is bad news for all of us. With less local news, noise, rumors, and misinformation fill the void, and it gets harder to separate truth from fiction. That's why CBC News is putting more journalists in more places across Canada, reporting on the ground from where you live, telling the stories that matter to all of us,

because local news is big news. Choose news, not noise. CBC News. Let's talk to somebody who understands this so well because he is an independent journalist. And this is what independent journalism is supposed to be. And this is why I'm a Matt Taiibi fan. Because he's got his team. He's got money.

He's got resources. And you need them. You can't be a one-man band who just gives hot takes. Okay? That's not enough. But if you are doing that, are you a journalist? Yeah. Why?

Because we don't have a litmus test. We don't have a standard. We don't have a law. license. If someone says they're a journalist and they're putting out information and the counter argument that, okay, I'm going to rob a bank and then say I'm a journalist. What the, who taught you logic? That's not what this is. This is that Don Lemon was in there. He said he's a reporter. He was doing reporting. Everybody sees what he does. This is a pattern of conduct. You may not like it. It may be bad practice. I would not have made the same choices. It does not mean he's not a journalist. It could

mean he's a bad journalist in this instance. Matt Taibi, do you agree or disagree and why, my brother? I think it's irrelevant whether or not he's, first of all, hi, Chris, I don't think, I don't think it matters whether or not he's a journalist in this instance, but I don't like the indictment of him using the FACE Act. I think that's heavy-handed, and he probably, for the reasons that you pointed out doesn't qualify or his actions shouldn't have triggered the law for the reasons that you cited you know on the other hand it's not good practice as you point out right like when people you wouldn't have done it's an exercise of free speech yeah I mean like I couldn't barge into a private property and stick a microphone in someone's face

and call that journalism, no matter whether I was following the crowd of people or not, it's still not typical practice, right? But arresting is too much, and it sends a signal that journalists are at risk, and I'm not a fan of that action. When you say, Matt, I don't think it matters if he's a journalist. What distinction are you making? Well, the fact is in the law, the law, doesn't really make a distinction about whether or not your journalist.

Journalists don't have particularly special rights under the law. We all have First Amendment rights. Journalists just happen to be the ones who practice them more than other people. And when there is state action against journalists, it's usually an indicator that first amendment rights in particular are under siege. you know, the one thing that the law does speak about with the press is the freedom of the press. And that's just, that just involves the question of whether or not the government has the right to restrict or establish, you know, a state organ. But that's not the issue here.

The issue here is whether or not he violated this law, which I can't stand anyway. But, you know, it's a hard question, right, because on the one hand, we don't like to think of journalists going into a church service and bothering people. And it's the kind of thing that has made us unpopular in the last 20 years or so. But it's also not the kind of thing you should go to jail for 11 years for. Right. Listen, I'm with you on it. And again, the reason I keep bringing up Georgia for it is that the indictment is so thin. And I think, you know, by design, to be honest.

But and also I believe that, you know, I, somebody checked me on something and they were right to do it once I took time to think about it, which is I say, wow, man, I do not want the federal government coming after me. They got like a 93% conviction rate and 90 plus percent of those convictions come because people plead guilty. Yeah, that was true before this administration and frankly, before the Biden administration. because they are now politicizing their this lawfare thing is real and it cheapens cases. And that's why cases like the one against Comey are going to go away because it's not a typical federal prosecution. They're not coming to people with the certitude and the depth that they usually do. And Don Lemon is confusing what I think should be a really basic analysis. And Matt Taibi just dropped a truth bomb on you guys, which is journalists.

don't have special free speech. We are just manifestations of free speech. We just do it a lot more. But it is the same right that every U.S. citizen has. And that's why it's so scary when they mess with it. And Don is masking the issue. Why? Because he's easy to hate for a lot of people in politics.

You don't like that he makes it about himself. You don't like that he says the news is not the information. It's the person giving it to you. they are the news. I get that that can piss you off. It doesn't mean that you want to see him punished for exercising his free speech. That's why I focus on Georgia Fort. You don't even know what she did there. And the more you look into it, the more frightening it is because she did nothing even compared to Don. What do you think of that, Matt? Yeah. I mean, again, the face act, even if we recognize the face act, there's something legitimate that could be used

against, you know, reporters or people who are not actively protesting. It has a lot of pretty specific requirements. Right. That don't come into play with most of the people who went in there. Now, when somebody asks you to leave private property and you don't leave, then, you know, that triggers it, right? But that, as I understand, it wasn't the situation with either Don or Georgia. And, yeah, so the whole thing.

makes me uncomfortable. And having lived in a, you know, a country under Putin and Yeltsin where, you know, they were steadily finding ways to imprison or even institutionalized journalists, it's a very steep, slippery slope. Like, once you start going down that road, and we started doing it before the Trump administration, it's, it tends to accelerate, and it tends to accelerate, and it tends to accelerate, quickly. You know, I haven't checked in with you in a minute. How do you think we're doing in the country right now? What are you thinking about the political state of play? I think it's horrible. I think this is as tense and unstable a moment as we've had certainly in my lifetime, you know, and just going by the history books. I can't think of a moment other than, you know, the Lincoln presidency in the years of

you're leading up to it where there's been this much ongoing tension and dispute about the legitimacy of governments. We don't know whether the federal government has authority in certain parts of the country, and we don't know whether state governments have authority in certain parts of the country. That's unprecedented in my lifetime. I don't know about your experience, But I think this is, we're heading toward a completely new paradigm in American history. And I worry about it. You know, I think Americans aren't just aren't experienced in the area of political instability and don't know how horrible it can be and don't value it enough.

And that worries me quite a lot. What is your biggest boogeyman right now? What are you worried about most happening? Well, I mean, the Trump. administration is determined to execute this ICE policy and they have an opposition that I think is heavily incentivized to create these sort of episodes where there are clashes between protesters and the administration. And what I'm not seeing anywhere is any effort by any politicians to sit down and kind of negotiate a more peaceful resolution to the situation.

It seems like everybody's incentivized to make things more radicalized and unstable and worse. And that's what we're most. It's just the complete absence of leadership in the direction of normalizing and stabilizing the country. I don't see that anywhere. Do you? Look, to me, we are in a phase, okay, of where the influences on us are out of control. And I believe that there are obviously, it's always multi-factor. But the algorithms have changed the game.

The game has always been, it bleeds, it leads. Headlines are provocative. Negativity is a proxy for insight. The media, news, business is a contradiction in terms, but now a necessity, and there are compromises, et cetera, et cetera, which is why guys like you have always distinguished yourselves. So, quality over quantity. But we've never dealt with anything like the algorithm.

which is where the most powerful media platforms, by design, which they put right in your face, they tell you, we design it to deliver you the worst version of yourselves, to provoke, to enrage. Enragement is engagement, and that's where people want their ads. So even if they're not doing the enraging, they want the enraging because that gives them the reach. And I do not believe in censorship, obviously. I believe in the marketplace of ideas to a fault. obviously, but, but, but I do believe that the design of the algorithms should be in question for regulation. And that's what we're seeing in France, by the way. They just raided those

Twitter offices, not just about Grok with the nudies, but abuse of the algorithms. Now, I get that that is scary on a level of messing with media, but I don't think these guys should be getting the past they're getting because of Section 230 in the Internet Act. What do you think? Yeah, I'm not a fan of government solutions to those things. I just don't think that we've come up with, we've found a way to make a better form of media profitable and desirable. And, you know, that's a failure on the part of people like me, like, you know, independent journalists. I think we've got to come up with something that delivers higher quality, investigative reporting and journalism. and does it faster and does it in a way that engages or tries to engage the whole audience.

Because what's going on now, you're exactly right. The algorithm has essentially splintered the entire population and atomized it into these little pockets of ever-increasing radicalization, hostility, anger. And it's telling people to view people who live in up. other worlds as not entirely human. And that is extremely dangerous, yeah. Amen, you know what I've decided? I gotta spend more time with you, man.

I gotta talk to you more. I gotta have you on more. I mean, because you know what? I'm not doing what I say is the solution, which is to reward people who do it right. I'm not doing it enough. So I apologize for the past and in advance for not sticking to my word because I'm a hypocrite.

But I appreciate you. I love you. your work. People should go to your substack. Matt, remind people, where do they get what you do? Rackett.News is where you can find us. But thanks, thank you so much, Chris. That's very kind of you to say. I'm always happy to come on and, you know, keep it, keep it up. You're doing God's work. Listen, I am just trying to help. This is your world. You are going to be a part of the influence that matters. And I am just here to support people who are doing it right. And you are just here. You do it right.

Thank you for joining us on Sirius 124. You're always welcome wherever I am. Appreciate you. Matt Taibi, ladies and gentlemen, racket news. Check it out why. There's rigor. He does not have an agenda other than exposing agendas. And he does it really well.

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Why wouldn't you do it? Let's get after it. With MX Platinum, almost every purchase made with your card, can be covered with points, including new tastes, new fits, and virtually everything in between. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. 8669676-687. I said the idea that the president wants to review Georgia because the illegals voted and swung the election,

and that's why the left wants them here, is known as the great replacement theory, and I believe it to be bullshit. Sean from Florida does not. What do you got, brother? All right, so I really wanted this t-shirt, so I wanted to make sure I caught him, had everything ready for you. You ever watch Key & Peel? Yep.

Okay, so best way for an illegal to be able to vote, they get their green card, wait approximately five years, go through the naturalization form, the N-400 form, get their naturalization before. It takes about another eight months, and then after they finish their naturalization,

process and get their certificate, apply for the ability to vote. It's foolproof. First of all, I've heard this many times. Very, very few people go through this process. Second, they have done a specific review of those present in the country that way, and they don't vote. So every time they review this, are there cases? You'll absolutely find me cases. I'm not saying you won't find cases, but they are de minimis. which means they would never swing an election. The only thing that clouds this analysis is not national, is not federal, is not even state. Some localities allow people who aren't here as residents legally to vote.

But that is not what we're talking about. And what you're talking about is a can, but is not a do, meaning it's not a real thing in terms of there being a lot of people. Now, the pushback on your side, and again, this argument I'm very familiar, familiar with is, well, you don't know, we don't look. Yes, they do, which is why I knew what you were talking about. And you do not have an estable number, you know, a significant number of people who are doing that. This is a boogeyman. It's not a real thing. A real thing is what happens when you do voter ID, which I think people are going to want. I think the majority wants it. I think it's going to happen. I get the policy arguments against it. Why? Because there's no chance that it doesn't

benefit the right and not because yeah because if you only have legal people voting they win no because you're going to have fewer people voting and it is no coincidence that the right is always in favor what will make of what will make fewer people vote i don't think it's a coincidence james in georgia your state man your state is under the microscope again what do you got well there's two things we need to go to open to open primaries where it's the top four advance to the general for rank choice. Agreed, agreed. Next. That gets rid of the AOCs.

That gets rid of the AOCs and the MGT, MTGs. Yep. Because you win a primary in a safe soil. Yep, yep, rank choice. I'm with you. Next. A shoot-in. And you need to bring them in. And you need to bring in Catherine Gale to talk about it.

Okay. I'm good with it. I like it. I dig it. I'm about it. I've been talking about it. Andrew Yang, also, big proponent of it. But another example in real time of the manipulation of the algorithm that distracts, that divides, and provokes, okay? X CNN anchor, which although already is a, to me, is a triggering mechanism, okay, because I've been at News Nation for several years. How am I still X CNN? You see what I'm saying?

It's pejorative. Anyway, X CNN anchor, Chris Cuomo threatens conservative commentator Scott Jennings with FAAFO and street violence over use of illegal aliens. on live TV. One, it wasn't illegal aliens, it was illegals. And second, I didn't threaten him. A threaten is where you suggest action against another that is used to intimidate. Okay, that's a threat. I didn't do that. I would not do that. I don't want to hurt Scott Jennings. What I said to Scott Jennings was not a threat. It was a warning. You keep using this incendiary language and you are asking for people to be violent. You are provoking.

You are escalating with extremism. And he's, because what did he do? So he's with this punk kid there who's kind of eating his lunch, right? Smart, young Democrat. And the kid says, well, you stop using the word illegal. You can't say that anymore. And so Jennings starts bullying him. What are you going to do about it?

What are you going to do about it? How are you going to make me stop? How are you going to enforce that? I don't even know you, brother. What are you going to do? he was punking the kid. Why? Because he's a little young guy and Jennings thinks that he has some kind of advantage. It wasn't about semantics. It wasn't about rhetoric. It wasn't about language. It wasn't about speech. It was about power. It was about bullying. And I said to him, hey, brother, you ain't a tough guy.

Okay? Scott Jennings is not a tough guy. All right? What he is is an opportunist. I remember this guy killing Trump. Now he defends everything about him. Why? Opportunity. And it's working for him. Fine. That's how you get paid. but you keep escalating this way there's going to be problems and you're going to own some of the responsibility what happened several days later all these ice protests are blown up i'm not blaming scott jennings but this is what i was afraid of and i'm still afraid of it and i think it's still going to escalate and get worse okay Alex prety is not the last one and i don't like that and i don't want to be right so that's not a threat see but that's the way this bullshit item from a bullshit outlet called purple room politics twists it to trigger the algorithm because that's how you get paid.

Phil in Pennsylvania, what do you got? Good morning, great show today. But I'm a little concerned. You seem to think that sort of journalists or independent journalists shouldn't put themselves sort of in a media harm way. But how do you rectify that for years I've been hearing about, you know, Oh, our news station goes where the story is. We're on the inside.

I look at people embedded in a military situation so that we can see what's happening. Imagine if there was a journalist that was in Jones Town. You know, we'd just say, well, that person shouldn't have been there. No, no, no. See, this is the interesting thing about it. This is the interesting thing, Phil. And I mean this, even though, look, the situation bothers me, and I believe that what makes it interesting has made it confusing.

we don't have any other example of this because it doesn't fit any of the other things you just said of course journalists go into places where illegal activity is happening of course of course that's about access that's about exposure there's always been standards and practices and you have believe me i've done it i've embedded many different ways i remember 25 years ago um making the decision to show kids on the run doing heroin and it was, well, do you really want to show them doing the drug? Are you encouraging it? Are you participating in a crime? And we think about this. We wrestle with it. We struggle with it as an industry. And that's why standards matter.

And that's why being independent isn't necessarily better. But, but, but this context we've never seen before for two reasons. One, Don Lemon made choices that most journalists wouldn't, which is to follow people who are going into a protected space to do something illegal. because most organizations would say, no, talk to them about why they're doing it, cover it afterwards, do not get mixed up in being perceived as someone making it happen. Don is okay with that. Why? One, I don't think he has the head for the analysis of what the law is and what the line is, and that's why he should benefit from a boss, but also because he loves to make himself the story.

And in that motivation wound up being his mistake, in my opinion, because he made bad choices. I just don't think they're illegal choices. Okay. However, the Face Act puts into conflict the two of the different protections in the same amendment. Right? Freedom of worship and freedom of speech, which of course are interrelated, not just in the amendment, but conceptually. And we're not used to that. So the reason they were able to jam him up at all is because where he was doing this is also

protected and their speech in there is protected. So it's protection versus protection. So it's a little confusing and we're not used to that. And that's one reason that we've never seen this before. The other reason, as I said, is because Don made choices that most wouldn't make. And well, what about Georgia Ford? She made the same choices. No, she didn't. She was in that place, but she was doing the job a different way than he was. And I think that's really important. And that's why I say Georgia Fort matters more. Two reasons. One, Don Lemon is absorbing all the energy. And look, yes, he loves it. Yes, Trump did him a huge favor. Yes, this is a big boost to his career. Yes, he's going to milk it. He doesn't even mention Georgia Fort, which would tell you something.

And she matters more than Don also because she made better choices inside and was punished for them anyway. And that goes to this administration deciding who's a journalist. And I think that's really, really dangerous. Alex in New Jersey, what do you got? I don't hang up on me a third time, okay? I'll hang up on your ass. I will say this. Go ahead.

What I will say is this. Every single problem that we are having and that you're discussing in great detail ultimately comes back to one thing that very few people, if any, really discuss. And it is the coercion, the coercive behavior of government. Government in general behaves through coercion. We don't have a legal recourse to get out from under their actions, right? We have to pay taxes or we go to jail. They can decide what we pay taxes on. It could be something that you're

morally incredibly opposed to and you're still legally forced to pay for it. That doesn't make it moral. And to quickly finish the thought, when one group coerces in one direction and then the other group comes into into political power and they coerce in the opposite and equal direction, it starts to get out of control. And I'll tell you, I'm a Trump voter because I can't stand the status quo and the establishment. But there are things right from the beginning that I haven't been on on par with on with him and i continue to not be on far with but you know and i see it he's going equal and opposite he's very he's got a lot of bravado he doesn't give up if he had had a a a prime time national address when rene good was shot and called out the fact that walls and fray

are refusing to cooperate which i think is a big part of the problem this may have gone very different But he didn't want it to go differently. See, the reason he sent ICE in there wasn't fraud. And look, people got to get their hands around this. Nick Shirley did not expose new fraud. Okay. And here's why I say that. The state investigated the places he went to.

Oh, the state's lying. Okay. The feds are investigating them. They have come up with nothing. Okay. So is there fraud there? Yes, there's fraud everywhere. But is there fraud specifically in the places he went to?

Yes, but not of a criminal nature. It's not me saying that. It's the state saying it. And if you find out differently, that's great. Oh, but what do you mean? It was the biggest ever. You're talking about the COVID-era scams. And there was a huge one in Minnesota.

Shame on walls. Shame on Minnesota. Shame on everybody who was part of it. And it was prosecuted by the feds in 2022. Now, you are correct. Fry, the mayor, walls, the governor. are enforcing the sanctuary city, over extending it, and pushing back to Trump in rhetoric and, in my opinion, unreasonable restriction. However, Trump didn't want to negotiate it before.

He wanted the smoke. He wanted the conflict because it works for him, because of exactly what you said. The binary nature of the other side is worse. Zero sum means I only win. by making you lose. If you and I are going to run a race, what is the easiest way for me to win? Not to run faster than you, to trip you

is the easiest way for me to win. And that sums up our politics, which and what and who is our worse. And that's what Trump is doing. Is he doing other things too? Yes, but that's what got us into this ice situation. And that's what is getting us out of the ice situation. Is it getting too hot?

Trump having to own it, not liking it, and now backing off. And now the mistake is for the left to see that as surrender and call it that because you're just going to repeat the cycle. The best measure of where we are as a society is hearing from other members of that society in conversation that has some cogency to it, some intelligence, not just, what do you think about Greenland? It's not about provocation, okay? It's about conversation.

That's what we're getting after here. on the YouTube channel for the Chris Cuomo project, on News Nation, where I'm doing my cable show, and Sirius XM, Potish Channel 124 for Cuomo in the mornings. Bon Appetit!