The Chris Cuomo Project - Mark Epstein Questions His Brother's Death

Episode Date: January 16, 2024

Chris Cuomo interviews Jeffrey Epstein's brother Mark, who questions the official suicide ruling of Jeffrey's death in jail. Mark argues the evidence doesn't match a suicide, believing Jeffrey was murdered to silence him given his powerful connections. Mark calls for more investigation, saying details about injuries, cameras, statements don't add up. He wants more transparency in this ongoing case mired in inconsistencies. Chris and Mark discuss why the official story is doubtful. Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself, as we've been told, or was he murdered? I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project podcast. Don't forget the Substack. It's part of the long COVID community, and we'll give you extras there. Get the podcast ad-free on Substack as well. And thank you very much for checking me out at NewsNation, 8P, 11P, every weekday night. You got to have different platforms in the new media reality. So thank you for being part of the community. I am driving it,

but it is for you, my brothers and sisters. So keep the feedback coming about how I can be more of a help to you in your critical thinking about the issues in your own life. And so, Jeffrey Epstein, care or not care? To be honest, never very high on my radar above the consideration of how many underage women? Who helped? Why aren't any of the other people involved? That's always been my push.

The intrigue of what famous people he has dirt on and all the sexual prurience and all that, that's always been secondary for me. But it doesn't matter whether your primary concern is for the victims or for the who's who of who was in Jeffrey Epstein's life. They kind of converge into this. Who was trying to hide what when it comes to what they knew about what Jeffrey Epstein was doing with underage women, girls, and what they may have been doing, how is it that with all these women being victimized and so many of them saying it wasn't just Jeffrey Epstein, there's nobody else on the hook except Ghislaine Maxwell after all these years of investigation?

Ah, that takes us to one seminal question. The Graveman, the root, the seed. Did the information about other bad guys, and they'll probably be guys mostly, right, die with Epstein? And if so, is that why he died, meaning someone murdered him? Now, the official reckoning is suicide. Certainly, he was found, as far as we know, hanging from a strap of material in his cell. But then there are all the twists and maybes and mightbes and questions. Justice Department puts out a report, says suicide. There are all these questions about the autopsy, a legend in forensic medicine.

Dr. Michael Bodden says, these pictures don't look right to me. Now, if anybody knows what a jailhouse hanging looks like, it's going to be Bodden. Why does he feel that way? Well, he was hired by the family. Hey, careful going to be Bodden. Why does he feel that way? Well, he was hired by the family. Hey, careful going after Michael Bodden's integrity. But why isn't there an investigation? If there are real questions, that takes us to our special guest, okay? Jeffrey Epstein had a brother. His name is Mark. He did not spend a lot of time in person with Jeffrey. He has never been implicated with any of these nefarious, criminal, disgusting things that his brother was doing. But he does care about whether his brother killed himself or was killed by somebody else. And he has a case to

make that it doesn't make sense based on what his brother was telling him, what he knew about his brother's life, what his brother had told him about what he knew, and what he believes are unanswered questions that may have been fudged by the same people who were in charge of his brother's life. Hear him out, Mark Epstein. We don't fake the funk here, and here's the real talk. Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70.

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You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. Mark, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it. I want to explain to the audience, many are audio only listeners, but if they're used to video, which my show is used to being on video, you are on audio because you have concerns about your safety. Yes. Yes. I just don't want to be recognized outside. And help us understand what has informed that position for you. What has made you feel that

you need to protect yourself? Well, years of death threats against me and my family. I was dealing with the FBI and NYPD for quite a while after my brother's death. And as a brother, as a family member, what has the loss of your brother Jeffrey Epstein been like for your family? Well, I'm really the only family left. Jeffrey had no children. He was single and our parents are gone. So I'm the family. Well, I lost my brother, you know, four and a half years ago. So it's never easy. But, you know, I've gotten over that. I have lost other family members. You sort of get used to that after a while. But other than the fact that the circumstances of his death are very questionable, life is normal. Like I said, it would have been easier for me if I believed he

committed suicide than I could have just dealt with the loss and gone on with my life. We'll talk about that. I just want to take one step backwards. What do you tell yourself about who your brother was and what was he about and why he drew all this scrutiny? Well, from what I know from like everybody else, he screwed up. He was with girls that were too young. When he first got in trouble in 2006, he asked me to come talk to him and I went to see what he wanted to tell me. And he told me he was getting in trouble for this. I was surprised, but you know, I come from a world where, you know, you get in trouble, you deal with it. So he had to deal with the trouble he got himself into. Other than that,

I mean, he was, other than that, he was a great guy. People don't want to hear that necessarily. But other than that, people found him to be a fascinating guy. He was intelligent. He was obviously successful. And he had a great life that he made for himself. Look, the reason is, I know what it's like to have to defend family, right? But it's about a question of degree. It's a question of how people see the that in other than that. To you, you seem to be explaining it as my brother was messing around with women that were younger than they should have been. And to others, it's he was grooming and sexually abusing minors. You know, those are very different reckonings, right?

I understand that. But I want to make it real clear. I don't find it's my job to defend my brother. That was his job to defend himself with his attorneys. I wasn't involved with that. I wasn't part of that. It didn't affect my life because we were not close that way. I hadn't seen my brother in seven years before he died, although we were close in that we communicated. We spoke and we emailed, but I wasn't part of their life. And like I said, this is the trouble he got himself into, whatever it is. That was his problem. Did you ever see any indication that he had what some would see as an illness, if not simply a perversion when it came to underage females?

Like I said, I didn't see him a lot. So I didn't see him with a lot of people. I knew he spent some time with younger women. I didn't know how young it was. I didn't ask for passport identification, but I knew he was with women that were young. I didn't know how young. And that's the extent of my knowledge of what he was doing. When you went to see him as a brother and he was telling you what he got in trouble with, you didn't feel like having a conversation with him about why he had been doing that? No, because when he told me, he told me that he was, he said he was stupid and he got in trouble for being with girls that were too young. There was nothing else to be said. He was sort of taking responsibility. He told me that what he did was wrong. And I figured, okay, this is, you know, it's his problem to deal with. Do you think he was

sick or do you think he was just bad when it came to this behavior? I don't know. I'm not a clinical psychologist. And the thing that I'm really interested in is the circumstances of his death. Like I said, I'm not here to defend him or describe him. I got it. I got it, Mark. And I'm not here to bust your chops either. I'm just trying to give some context to the audience about where you're coming from on all of this. So we arrive at the moment of intrigue, which is he's in the holding center at MCC. And now we have to have a discussion about what you believe the reality was inside. The official story is that your brother was in distress, that he had had trouble with a fellow inmate, and that he had suicidal thoughts, if not attempt, at least one attempt while he was inside.

Do you accept any of that? What I accept is that he was in jail, as you said. I would imagine that at some point everybody on that ward had thoughts of committing suicide. I think that's normal for prisoners. But the people that were close to Jeff, his attorneys and other people I know that spoke to him, and even the prison psychologist who took him off the suicide watch, nobody thought he was suicidal. But he was on suicide watch for a reason, right? Which is that at some point they did think he was suicidal.

Well, because a couple of weeks before the death, he had that incident with his cellmate where they found him with marks on his neck. And they thought he was trying to commit suicide. But turns out he didn't. His roommate attacked him. And you can listen to the Crime Waves podcast with his attorney, David Schoen, who explains that he was attacked, but he was reluctant to report it because he was afraid of retaliation. So he just said he didn't remember what happened.

When I heard that, I realized that's bullshit. You know, he knew what happened. Well, he absolutely knew what happened. The question is whether or not he wanted to discuss it, either because it was sensitive to him and how he wanted to be seen to the extent that that was still real, or that he was afraid of retaliation while he was still inside. I had Counselor shown on my News Nation show, and he took me through what he believed was a sequence of events that showed that Jeffrey Epstein was very intent on surviving and fighting this and then suddenly was dead.

What do you believe happened to your brother? Before I answer that question, be aware that a few days after his death, they had a hearing scheduled to appeal his bail decision. Jeffrey was putting up a huge bail and it was denied. For the appeal, his attorneys called me and asked me if I would guarantee his entire bail, in essence, doubling it. So it would have been the highest bail in United States history between his bail and me guaranteeing it. So there's a chance he might have gotten bail because you are entitled to bail if you can prove you're not a flight risk and put up enough. So there's a chance he might have gotten bail in a few days. So if he was going to commit suicide, I could see him waiting to see if bail

was denied again, and then taking yourself out if you don't want to spend a year in jail waiting for a trial. I could understand that. But to kill yourself a few days before this hearing makes absolutely no sense. So what do you think happened? I think he was killed. You know, for four and a half, four years, we were trying to find out what position his body was in, because that tells you a lot. Finally, in the Justice Department report that came out last year, they described the way his body was hanging that is completely inconsistent with the autopsy results. When the autopsy was done, the city pathologist who did the autopsy and Dr. Barton, who I hired to be there to witness this, both came out of the autopsy room saying that they can't call it a suicide because it looks too much like a homicide. The cause of death on the initial death certificate said pending, meaning pending further investigation.

In the Justice Department report, it just says that the medical examiner declared it a suicide. It skips over the fact that it was initially undetermined by the people that actually examined the body. The chief medical examiner, Barbara Sampson, never saw the body. She claims that there was other evidence that made a change of mind, but has not said what that was. Also, when Bill Barr

called it a suicide, that basically stops any investigation because it doesn't seem like any investigation into his death was done. The EMTs were shocked that they were never questioned about this. They said they were always questioned, especially on high-profile cases.

The hospital personnel where he was brought were never questioned. So we don't know who the other inmates on the tier were. Were all of them ever questioned? And who are they? And where are they now? That would be a very, if you were investigating a murder, if you looked at this as a murder, as opposed to a suicide, you would want to question the inmates that were on that tier. Understood, understood.

And this, and the intrigue here was added to a fact that one of the cameras wasn't working. It was reported that both of the cameras wasn't working. It was reported that both of the cameras weren't working. We believe that's not true, that one camera was working. And why couldn't it be the case that they didn't investigate it as a murder because there was never any evidence that anybody else entered the cell? Yeah, there wasn't evidence that they didn't enter the cell. I had heard earlier on, a few months after the death, through a journalist who told me that the news came from an attorney of one of the inmates,

that cell doors were left unlocked that night. But they had a camera working in the SHU, the special housing unit, where they could see who came in and out that night. And they were able to review the tape and they didn't see anybody go in and out, which is kind of a bad fact for the he was murdered thing, unless they're lying about that. So that takes us away from fact to rationale, which is why would they have murdered him? What you're telling me is brand new information. I never heard of another camera system on the camera. There was one camera in that tier facing the door where you come in. I have a picture of the tier showing that camera.

That camera was not working. The camera outside of the tier was working and it showed that nobody went in or out of the tier. Maybe that's what you're referring to. Also, as far as cameras, the EMTs told me that in the infirmary and at the hospital, there was somebody there with a handheld video camera that was videotaping everything that was taking place. And that was told to me by the EMTs. So where's the footage from that camera? That's a fair question. Who would want to kill your brother and why? Well, I don't know.

Look at the people on these lists that are coming out. I've been asked many times about the list, and I have no knowledge of what was coming out in these lists. I assume he had dirt. He told me he had dirt on some people. He didn't tell me what it was. I've been quoted as saying in the 2016 election, he said to me that if he said what he knew about both candidates, they'd have to cancel the election. He didn't tell me what he knew, but he said that. And I don't think he would just make up that line. And then again, you have to look at Bill Barr. Bill Barr came out with a statement saying that because nobody went in or out of the tier, not to sell, nobody went in and out of the tier and convinced him it was a suicide. Well, any third rate investigator will tell you that's a ridiculous statement because there were a dozen other people on the other side of that door what would bill barr care about jeffrey epstein i don't

know but i don't think there's any link between his father and my brother teaching adult in 40 years ago i think that's just a mere coincidence but yeah i say well who does if bill barb made up this bullshit statement he's covering something up right? So who is he covering up for? Because I don't think Bill Barr killed my brother. So who is he covering up for? Now, Bill Barr runs the Justice Department. Who did then Attorney General Bill Barr work for? Who would he have the interest to protect? Trump says that he's never at the island. He never was partying with your brother, that there's nothing that he could have on him. Do you believe that?

No, not at all. Not at all. My brother said he had dirt on him and they used to party together quite a lot. They used to hang out together. Trump actually even comped my mother and my aunts at the hotel in Atlantic City because, you know, they were Jeffrey's, you know, relatives. They used to fly in each other's planes. I was actually on Jeff's plane with Trump once flying back from from Florida. That was in 1999, before I needed trouble.

But no, Jeff would tell me the funny things that Trump would say or whatever. Yeah, no, they were good friends for a while. Right, but I'm saying they may have been friendly, but that he didn't mess around with underage girls with him. Well, I wasn't there, so I couldn't, you know, I can neither confirm nor deny. I don't have that knowledge. Do you believe that Jeffrey was closer with Bill Clinton than he was with Donald Trump? Again, it's speculating. I know he was close with Clinton. I know he always spoke highly of Clinton. And at the time I got to meet Clinton, he seemed to like my brother when we spoke. But you guys are brothers. You never talked about sex lives and what he was doing and who he was partying with.

It seemed to be a huge part of his life in terms of what he was interested in promoting and organizing. He never talked to you about it? Yeah, we spoke about sex lives when we were teenagers. We're not kids anymore. I don't need to know what he was doing and who he was with.

That wasn't what interested me. I was more interested in him. If there was something he wanted to tell me, he would tell me. We don't fake the funk here. And here's the real talk. Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70. I know it's taboo. It's embarrassing.

But it shouldn't be. Thankfully, we now have HIMS, and it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment, and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why? Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments, and you do it right from your couch. HIMS provides access to clinically proven, generic alternatives to Viagra or Cialis or whatever. And it's up to like 95% cheaper. And there are options as low as two bucks a dose.

HIMS has hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers. So if ED is getting you down, it's time to pick it up. of trusted subscribers. So if ED is getting you down, it's time to pick it up. Start your free online visit today at HIMS.com slash CCP. H-I-M-S dot com slash CCP. And you will get personalized ED treatment options.

HIMS.com slash CCP. Prescriptions? You need an online consultation with a healthcare provider, and they will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. You see the website, you'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. The Chris Cuomo Project is supported by Cozy Earth. Why? Because I like their sheets.

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Now, so if you go to CozyEarth.com and you enter the code, enter the code Chris, and you can get up to 35% off your first order. CozyEarth.com and the code is Chris. Do you believe that there's any reason to look at his relationship with Les Wexler and whether or not there was a vengeance motive there? I don't know. I know when Jeff worked with Wexler and whether or not there was a vengeance motive there? I don't know. I know when Jeff worked with Wexler, he also spoke highly of Wexler. They worked together for many years. They were nice to each other as far as business relationships and friendships. They traveled together, they did things together. But I don't know if there was anything untoward about that. If somebody wanted to silence Jeffrey Epstein, this is a hard question.

Why would Ghislaine Maxwell be alive and well? I don't know the answer to that. I know after he got in trouble in Florida the first time, I don't know how much more contact he had with Ghislaine at that point in time. know how much more contact he had with Glenn at that point in time. All the charges they were hitting him with more recently stemmed back from the activities back then in the early 2000s. Right, which she would have known about. So if he had dirt on people, one would think Ghislaine Maxwell would be well aware. And not only has she not used the information to help herself in her prosecution, but nobody has gone after her for what she might know. And by most accounts, she was as close to your brother as anybody and did a lot of the work

of motivating his social life. Yes, it's a good question. I don't know the answer to that, except maybe if somebody wanted to take her out. If she also ends up dead in prison, that would maybe spark too much of an investigation as being too coincidental. It's sort of like, look how many of Putin's friends are falling out of windows. I mean, after the first couple of people fall out of windows, you gotta look and say, I don't think they're falling out of windows. Do you think Donald Trump is capable of wanting to have someone killed because of what they could say about him? I don't have any doubt about that. Yeah, people say he's jealous of Putin's ability to have people killed. I've heard that said. Well, that's one thing. But you really believe that Donald Trump is capable of

having your brother murdered to spare himself embarrassment? Absolutely. Based on what? From meeting him years ago and just watching his performance the last 20 years. He doesn't seem to have a limit on what he would do to help himself. What experience did you ever have with him personally that made you think that he could be that cruel? I think everybody or most people could be very cruel when it comes to protecting themselves. So I don't think that's a shocking answer. Could you have somebody killed to protect your reputation?

Well, I doubt I'd ever be in that position. So I don't want to speculate on that question. Look, after my brother died, I had every journalist, you know, looking at me, trying to link me to this or trying to cause, you know, trouble for me. And after, you know, quite a while, when they found out that there's no dirt on me,

then they all came to me for background information and as my best friend to help them with the movies and the books. So I'm never a relatively clean life, so I'm not worried about people having dirt on me. So what happens now? Do you believe there will ever be any investigation? Well, I would like the questions answered or get the questions answered. You know, the questions such as who was on that tier? Because if he was killed, he was killed by somebody on that tier. And it's just a small number of people. It's not like, you know, you see on TV that a pool of a thousand potential suspects.

No, there's 10 or 11. This was a specialized housing unit. What they call SHU, S-H-U. What are you doing to make that happen? as 10 or 11. This was a specialized housing unit, what they call SHU, S-H-U. What are you doing to make that happen? Are you pursuing any avenues, legal, political, otherwise? Well, I'm filing for all the paperwork,

but I'm not getting any responses to it. And I'm talking to people like you who might be able to put this story out there so other people can question, hey, how, if this guy got killed in federal prison, you know, who was behind it and why? For four years, I stayed quiet about all of this because I didn't have enough to say. But when the Justice Department report came out and it was obviously filled with bullshit, then I said, wait, this doesn't make sense and somebody should really look at this. How hard is it for you to hear the accounts of the women and others that are being exposed now about how your brother

treated them? To be honest with you, I haven't read them. I'm really not really interested in that because it's not my life. Like I said, this was his life and he got himself into his own trouble. But I'm just concerned that my brother was killed. How do you reconcile that with the, you know, the feelings about what he deserved and, you know, what was good and what was bad, what was right, what was wrong? You know, you say, well, I care that someone killed my brother, but doesn't have to go hand in hand with caring what was going on in his life and how people felt about him

and what he was responsible for or not. I mean, how do you keep yourself out of that mindset but worry about how he died? Well, because, like I said, that was his life. You know that mindset but worry about how he died? Well, because that was his life. You know, I come from a background where, you know, you make your bed, you sleep in it. You know, and he got himself into trouble. And unfortunately, it ended up this way. You know, should he have been doing what he was doing?

No. But, you know, I wasn't around then. And I questioned about all the other people that were around him that knew what was going on. Why didn't they say, you know, hey, what are you doing? But you could have written him off and said, look, people who mess around in ways with powerful people and put themselves at risk sometimes wind up dead. I don't know how it happened, but that's his life. I'm moving on. Well, you know, if it was a stranger, that would be the attitude I would take.

But he was my brother. And I'm not just willing to write my brother off like that. I get it. And anything that we can do to inform people as to what you learn that changes our understanding of the situation, I'm a call away. Okay, well, read the Justice Department report, and then I can show you the facts that don't make any sense in that report. Oh, listen, I've read it. I have it. I talked to Sean literally the other night on my show. I get that there are questions. But at this point, it doesn't seem like anything is going to get disturbed in terms of their

reckoning. I think there are questions. I don't know that there's a better answer than the one that they've provided yet, yet. But I'm open. know that there's a better answer than the one that they've provided yet, yet, but I'm open. Okay. Well, when you look at the way they described he was hanging, you know, and then you see the photographs of his neck from the autopsy, you say he could not have been hanging that way. It's just very factual. Any, any pathologist you hire will tell you that the marks on his neck could not have been caused by the way he was described as hanging. That's very

simple. I don't know that it's as simple as you're making it. I do know that I know what Biden said. I know how respected he is. I know that there is the question mark of why the instant examiner added a disposition to cause a few days after when they had left it unclear initially or inconclusive. But the method of asphyxiation that they believe your brother used, which is kind of common in jail, is not off the ceiling and then you jump down off a chair. It's that there's asphyxiation of the carotid artery, which was really just from a body slumping down and happens in seconds. And it doesn't look like what people will expect a

hanging to look like. Does that make any sense to you? No, because the way he described as being hanging, basically most of his body weight was hanging by his neck because they said he was in a seated position with his legs extended in front of him and his buttocks was an inch and an inch and a half off the ground. So yes, there was some weight on his feet or, you know, part of his legs maybe, but most of his weight was on his neck. So if you look at pictures and you can find them online, people hanging the ligature rides high up under the chin and goes back up

sort of behind your ears and up above to whatever you're tied to you know uh you know like you mentioned soft hangers like robin williams put a belt around his neck or something and tied it to a doorknob you know so that belt would go high up under his chin behind his ears and up to the doorknob the mark on my brother's neck is more lower in the middle of his neck and the scar goes sort of straight back, like as if I put a rope around somebody's neck and just, you know, like a garrotte and pulled it straight back. He was dead for at least two hours when he was found.

That's also a medical fact. He could have been dead for six hours, but we know at least two hours. So he would have slumped down, and that ligature would have been high on his neck. Also, when you are dead, your blood settles in your body. Gravity takes the blood through the tissues down. The way he was sitting, the back of his legs should have been blotchy from blood pooling in his legs. One of the autopsy pictures, his legs are clear, his buttocks are clear. There's no what's called lividity. There's no pooling of blood in his legs or his butt. So how do you explain that? Again, it's a medical inconsistency with what they are claiming in the report.

I hope that you get an examination of it because the transparency can only help people's understanding. And again, anytime you want to talk about new discoveries, I'm here. The ligature, the marks on the neck, may be a little bit more non-troversy than controversy. Why? Because the situation may not be as unusual as suggested for a number of reasons. That doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate questions and that there's been too little discussion about this from the authorities in explaining their own findings. That's why we do the interview.

That's why we push for answers. I'm no conspiracy theorist. I don't even have a big reason to question what we do the interview. That's why we push for answers. I'm no conspiracy theorist. I don't even have a big reason to question what we've been told. But I do question why more hasn't been said. What do you think? Thank you for watching, listening in this case, because Epstein doesn't want people to put his face with his name because he wants to live the rest of his life without the shame of his brother. I understand what he's doing, but that's why you don't see him. Okay. Thank you for checking us out here at the podcast. Thank you for subscribing on Substack so that you can be part of this long COVID community, get the podcast ad free at a minimum, but I'm going to have special offerings that I put there, including access to me.

You're not going to be able to get anywhere else. Why? Because I'm going to reward your contribution to the cause. I got a team to feed. Also, I'll see you on NewsNation 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. every weekday night. We're going to deal with a lot of things. Let's deal with it together. Let's get after it. Music Music Music Music