The Chris Cuomo Project - Mark Leibovich

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

In this week’s episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, Chris is joined by Mark Leibovich, staff writer for The Atlantic and author of “Thank You for Your Servitude,” for a wide-ranging discussion about the G.O.P.’s relationship with Donald Trump, the gap between what politicians say in public and what they say in private, the importance of basic decency, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

People mock Joe Biden all the time, especially on the left, especially on the left, but also on the right for all of his kind of kumbaya, like coming together rhetoric. And, you know, Biden has not really unified the country like he said he was going to be. But I think it's great to have a president that tries. Hey, and welcome to another episode of the Chris Cuomo Project, coming to you from my digs here at home. If you're listening, that's where I am. If you're watching, you can see that's where I am. Really appreciate you. Please continue to spread the word, subscribe, and follow. Today, very cool guest, Mark Leibovich. Great journalist,

really good interviewer, known for long form. But I'm talking to him about a book he has called Thank You for Your Servitude. Not service, servitude. And he's talking all about the game. And that's why I think he's so useful for you guys. And we had a conversation heading into the midterms about what the dynamics were at play and what we were hoping for. And here's the good news. It all came true. Everything we were hoping for came true. And that's going to be a big angle for me going forwards. What really happened in these midterms? Because let me tell you, a lot of my brothers and sisters in the media, and certainly both parties, are ignoring the biggest thing. You. The story of this election, the midterms, was about independent voters, free agents. No party, no tribe, no team,

open minds, open hearts, willing to listen, looking at the person, thinking about policy, all of that instead of just party. That's the story. And there's a lot of context to it. And Leibovich is one of the best. So subscribe, follow. Here he is. Don't forget your free agent merch. I don't have it on now. Dragon Hemp, very cool stuff. My buddy started it. No, not an advertiser. I just like him. Dawn Patrol. That's a surfing thing. I don't have it on now. Dragon Hemp. Very cool stuff. My buddy started it. No, not an advertiser. I just like him. Dawn Patrol. That's a surfing thing.

I don't know. It's my wife's shirt. So, Mark Leibovich. Without further ado. Listen, if you know anything about me, you know I've been doing AG1 for over five years. Okay? Why? Well, because I heard about it just as I was looking at all of these white and translucent brown bottles in my life. Had to be a dozen of them, okay? Which vitamins I took with when, with food, in the morning, at night. and it was making it so that I

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for doing it. Chris, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Sorry for, I was stuck in traffic. I was a little late, but here we are. Don't worry about it. The podcast and the streaming audience, they don't care. They just want good content, and that's what you are. The new book is called Thank You for Your Servitude, a play on thank you for your service. It is very interesting, and I wanted you on for a couple of reasons. One, you're a good interviewer,

and I wanted to give people an insight into how that comes to be. And secondly, I like your take on this because it's an analysis for all of you who hopefully will get thank you for your servitude. It's an analysis of why the party fell in line behind Trump. But that's not a new idea, right? All of you know that that happened. But what Mark does is he takes a look at not just what the motivation was or the pressure points were, but how main players in the party and then some side figures really took advantage of it. So it's a little bit more of a layered thing.

It's not just that Trump was a bully and they were afraid. It's much more complicated than that. And Leibovich's reckoning, very cool. And on the back flap, it says, thank you for your servitude isn't another view from the Oval Office. It's the view from the Trump Hotel. We can check out any time we want, but only time will tell if we can ever leave.

Hotel California reference. Very nice. Do you think we can ever leave? I mean, look, many of us, the majority of us were never there. I would say the vast majority of people I know and, you know, I suspect many people in our business know we're never there. I think there was a lot of mystery about why people did fall in line with them. And this is what I tried to do here is not try to out psychoanalyze Donald Trump or out White House intrigue Bob Woodward or Maggie Haberman or anyone like that.

I wanted to figure out who are the people who are going to play the game with him? I mean, look, opportunism, as you referenced before, is not a new Washington story. It's not a new politics story. It's not a new story in any sort of powerful business. I would say that the people who are under the spell of him and who continue to be under the spell of him are the biggest story in America right now. Because again, without them, Donald Trump is, you know, he's a guy that we could have ignored and we did ignore. Is it a spell?

You know, I don't know. I think it's, by saying it's a spell, it lets them off the hook to some degree. I think it's a weakness. I think he's someone that people don't really want to take on. Look, I think Donald Trump said to me early on in the process, he said, look, I think I'm going to win this Republican nomination. It was very early on then,

but he was the front runner because I think they're all going to fold. I think like these people are weak. I am used to dealing with sort of people or, you know, creatures in the jungle. It's a different jungle. These people up here with me, you know, referring to the debate stage you just got off are weak. And ultimately, you know, he was right. They all folded. Any complex situation in politics is certainly complex. Never has a single factor explanation, which, of course, is the trap in any interview where when somebody asks you for a reason for something, you know, and they're looking for a soundbite most of the time. Podcast is more free form, obviously. But they want you to give like one, two things. And usually it's nuanced,

it's layered. And one thing led to another thing. And it was more of a dynamic than it was simple cause and effect. And that's certainly the case here, because obviously, if you want to simplify it, the reason that they fell in line with Trump was because it was working with the ever-shrinking, more extreme-oriented electorate. That's why. And it is only remarkable because we had never seen guys go all in and outright hostility towards somebody the way Cruz, Rubio, and Lindsey Graham did, these three. And again, Leibovich, in fairness, I don't know, Mark, we've never met, but this is a much more expansive look at something that you've heard about before than I have seen. And if I haven't seen it, you haven't seen it because this is all I do. And for the last 10 months, I've had a lot of time on my hands.

So, you know, these three guys went out of their way to get into personal combat with Donald Trump to out macho him when it seemed like that was the simple metric. Rubio had his moment with the he'd be selling watches on 34th Street if he weren't here. Ted Cruz, you know, kind of, I believe, weakly and incompletely tried to resurrect his honor for his wife when he was like, you know, keep my wife's name out of your mouth or whatever bullshit he said that didn't really get it done. And Graham, most demonstrably, had made like a Christian play about how morally this guy was going to wind up having to pack light when he died because it was going to be hot where he was going. And he just turned around and is also the most shamelessly willing to explain why he did it. Unlike the other two, who will just kind of spin you out of it. Lindsey Graham would say even to Alibovitch, hey man, as it says on the back of his jacket, he has him on here. You don't want

to be reelected. You're in the wrong business. And it's as simple as that for Lindsey Graham. Oh, absolutely. It's relevant. Well, first of all, Lindsey Graham needs a job. If he weren't in the U.S. Senate, one of his colleagues in the Senate said to me, there's no one in this room who needs this job or in the Senate who needs this job more than Lindsey Graham does. He doesn't have a family. He doesn't have really any hobbies. He just he needs whatever the juice, whatever the craps table is of power, of being in these rooms and these negotiations and these war zones, whatever it is, you know, being in Donald Trump's orbit on the golf course, he gets some real, I mean, he's got a twisted story, you know, he's got sort of a twisted mind. And I think he gets a lot of sustenance out of

being at the craps table, as he says, you know, a guy like Kevin McCarthy, who you didn't mention, but he wants a job too. Like there's nothing this guy wants more or needs more in life than to be Speaker of the House. It will redeem all of the indignity that he has put himself through and continues to put himself through. But isn't that enough in politics? I mean, at the end of the day,

as grotesque as this may appear, grotesque, you know, not in like the horror movie way, but, you know, in the more classical sense. As obvious and ugly as this was, isn't this what politics is? His message was resonating. Yes. In a lot of cases, it's you need a job. And it was a classic case of a demagogue, you know, so somebody who got people scared and played on fear that was real and they're already and pointed at a system that all the other guys were part of every one of them and said they all are part of what sucks, which Leibovitch accurately depicts in here as the swamp, which he says they turned into a gold plated bathtub, which is a nice play on them actually getting into the water and enjoying it. And gold-plated, obviously good for Trump.

And mine was nowhere near as clever. I used to say they said they were going to drain the swamp. And instead, they added the biggest and angriest alligators we've ever seen in our lives to it. Because nobody's ever had more people dismissed from an administration than Donald Trump. And it wasn't political payback or gratuitous. It was that he had guys who were not fit to be around him. And yet here we are, brother. And it is every bit as real right now as it was when Donald Trump was president.

Now, what I just said is knocked down by this stat that is floating around that 20 percent less of the GOP says they want Trump than when he was president. What do you make of that? I think it's probably true. I think there is. I mean, Trump definitely has eroded somewhat. I think he has a shelf life. I think like anyone that big or even not that big. I mean, you know, this is seven years, right?

I mean, this is like seven years into his political run. I mean, that's a long time. And I mean, look, I mean, well more than half of the Republicans that were in Congress or the Senate when he came to Washington have either retired or were voted out or turned on him. I mean, so there's definitely been some erosion. But what you have is the Republican Party that remains today is just this, you know, pure, what is it? What's the kitchen term? I'm not a cook. A reduction, like a fine reduction of Trumpism, where you have some truly awful people. I mean, look, I don't, maybe I shouldn't be that definitive here. Too late. Yeah, too late. I said it. Okay. There's not a single person that I know of in the party who will even mildly rebuke this. So this is, you know, to me, a character assassination about every single one of them. And that's the party now. Like there was even five years ago, you know, people like after Charlottesville, there were people who would have lined up and, you know, rebuked it. Have you figured out yet why right slash really right or whatever, you know, whatever qualifier you want to put on it? Yeah. Voters are still like, well, he's still better than the rest

of them. I mean, I think there's some of that. I mean, I think, look, the Democrats are vulnerable. Biden's vulnerable. I mean, inflation, the economy makes everyone vulnerable and, you know, and gives the alternative sort of 40 percent from the start. But what does it mean that all of these things that would have killed anybody else in the Republican or Democrat Party can't touch this guy? I would say it has touched him. But look, shamelessness is a superpower. The guy is not dealing with normal quotients of shame, ability of being embarrassed. You know, I mean, you know, if I were caught in like lie after lie after lie or, you know, potential criminality, I mean, I'd be under the bed.

I'd be embarrassed. But that's because you're ruled by a club. I'm ruled by a club. You're ruled by a club that has, you know, is there hypocrisy? I'm the wrong guy to ask about it right now. But yes, but you get judged by people who can take you out of your ability to do what you're doing. And Trump's ability to be taken out is by this base of voters who it seems, I mean, maybe the answer to my question is that they've said, yeah, okay, all of these things are terrible. But two things you guys aren't understanding. One, we do not accept the judgment of Donald Trump from people who we think

are his equal in terms of skankiness. And two, these are rules of a game that we now reject. And two, these are rules of a game that we now reject. We reject the game. Now, the left doesn't reject the game. I mean, you know, my brother is evidence of that. There are rules in the Democratic Party. And if you offend those rules, you will get removed by Democrats. So that's not his rule with that base. And his team can have no rules because he is the head of the team and they are afraid of the base.

They are afraid of the base. And it's been bad for Republicans if you look at, you know, Trump being the first Republican or the first president in 100 years to lose the White House, the House and the Senate in one term. He coughed up two Senate seats in Georgia. I mean, you know, we've all lived through this. Lost the House in 18. He runs and everybody else stays out of the primary. Yes or no? I don't think everybody else, but I think he wins.

I think there's no question he wins. Chris Christie can't beat him. No. Ron DeSantis can't beat him. Nope. I don't think so. I mean, I think DeSantis, you know, obviously he's got a little bit of a mystique now. DeSantis is a socially awkward dude. People who served with him in Congress, people who,

you know, Republican governors, I mean, Republicans, he doesn't wear well. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't really come off well. I mean, Trump tends to make mincemeat out of guys like that. I don't see that as a good match for DeSantis. I think likely, given that he's an opportunist like everyone else, would probably try to be his vice president and perhaps could be if he, you know, wins some delegates. Do you think Trump runs? Yeah, why not? I mean, I think he says he is. He seems to be indicating that he is. And, you know, he seems to think that it makes him more bulletproof than he already is. I had put up a theory that Paul Manafort and a bunch of these other guys who are still close or whatever that word means to the former president smack down,

which is he enters, he gets all of the energy and then he abdicates and appoints who it will be. You know, he'll say DeSantis should be the guy and then he's a King maker and he builds up truth social, but, and they all smacked it away and said, Nope, he's not about

me he wouldn't even do that for one of his kids i was gonna say he wouldn't even do it for don jr or ivanka maybe of matt probably not ivanka no it's it's all about him i don't see i mean it's he doesn't he just goes straight ahead he's not gonna do the uh the bank shot and for cruz and rubio is it the case that they are only able to exist because he allows them to, but they will never be able to rise up and oppose him? And they probably will not be able to take the crown if he puts it up for grabs because then there'll be a shift and these guys will be called out for being craven. Yeah, I doubt either of them run against him. I mean, there was a there's a chance DeSantis runs against him. And that could be an interesting race, but I don't think he wins.

And then, you know, you could have a Christie, you could have a Liz Cheney, you could have, you know, an anti-Trump or Kinzinger or someone like that, which, you know, there it'd be a great debate to watch. I just don't think the RNC or Trump would allow himself to get on a debate stage with any of these people. And, you know, then it'll just win. You know, people say the Democrats need to keep Trump out of their mouth and speak to the concerns of the people who voted for him and show that they are better than Trump would be for them. Do something for those people and then they won't have to make the desperate choice of being for a Trump. What do you think of that? I think they can do both. I think Democrats could, you

know, I think they probably have a pretty good story to tell at this point. I mean, I just, they haven't figured out a way to tell it. I mean, Democrats have never been particularly good at this. But no, I mean, I think Trump is a great asset for Democrats. In fact, he's arguably the best asset for Democrats. I mean, one of the few national politicians who's less popular than Joe Biden right now is Donald Trump, and not by a lot. You think Biden runs again? I mean, I don't think he should. But yeah, I do. I mean, that seems to be where this is headed. Do you think he's in decline? Yeah. I mean, I think when I'm at 79 years old, I'll be in decline, too. Yeah, no. I mean, look at Trump's side by side with,

you know, the interviews he did 20 years ago. I mean, it's clearly they're not as sharp. And, you know, Biden, he did he made his biggest contribution to America on November, whatever the date was, third, 2020. And he beat Donald Trump. And, you know, he spared the country, whatever that second term would have looked like. And he might be called upon to do it again. But, yeah, no, he's not. I mean, look, he wasn't that great to begin with. I mean, there's a reason his two other campaigns were utter disaster. So yeah, I think he's in decline,

but I don't know if the Democrats have anyone else. Kamala Harris, she's been weakened. They're trying to bring her back now on Roe v. Wade. But she seems somewhat compromised by their own reckoning. I don't know why he wouldn't run again. Yeah. I mean, it's like it's not his job not to run. If he wants to run, he should run. Yeah. I mean, it's like it's not his job not to run. If he wants to run, he should run. And if he runs, he almost certainly gets the nomination. Now, when I say that, I'm not saying you can't make a case against him running. I'm saying personally to him.

Why wouldn't he? He keeps saying my intention is to. Yeah. Then I guess we should just take him at his word and take Trump at his word. I mean, I guess they'll both run. And I think if that happens, they'll probably wind up facing each other again. So in reading this, you know, this is a lens on those players and then how people got into what you call the graft game here. The graft game suggests, obviously, you know, making money off the situation.

But you mean it in a little bit more of an expansive sense than just pay for play, right? Yeah. I mean, it's not the Trump Hotel. I mean, we called it the Paola Palace, we called it. I mean, there was any number of, yeah, the literal grift of like Rick's American Cafe and Casa Blanca. I mean, there was a lot of that going on. But no, I mean, there is something in it for these people. I mean, it is a pay to play in that people have tried to make Donald Trump work for him. And the way to do it is absolute sort of pathetic sycophancy. And, you know, that's the play. Do you think we're making a mistake calling it Trumpism and giving him ownership of a sentiment, an outrage, a disaffection that he did not create. He probably aped from what he

was taught by Tom Tancredo and Steve King when he went out and spent some time with those guys. But is it a mistake to put it all on his shoulders when really he's just become an agent of it for this group of people? He has, but he put a touch on it. I mean, there's something distinctly Trumpist about it, obviously, because it takes every aspect of his personality. It's not conservatism, by the way. I mean, the idea that like people describe like Trumpers as like, oh, these are the arch conservatives of the party. I mean, this is not conservatism as you and I know it. I mean, family values, free trade, you know, anti-Russian. I mean, you know, go down the list, right?

It's basically doing what you want to do and not being told. And just don't tell me what to do. I'm going to do what I do. And if it's wrong, screw you. I mean, that's Trump, right? And, you know, I don't I've personally never been terribly compelled by that, but I can see why people would be. And so, yeah, in a way, you know, the cult of personality analogy you keep hearing is totally appropriate because that's sort of what it is. I want that not to be true, not because I'm against Donald Trump. I always feel like,

you know, I always wave away any criticisms like that. One, they're usually just made out of convenience. But also, it's that people have to really overcome a high hurdle with me for me to have a personal opinion of them. I'm high on indifference when it comes to people. Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that. And it's like, you know, I really have a big dose of, well, I don't give a shit what that guy says. Like, most of the time, I'm not, I don't mean that with reference to the former president. You got to care what he says about you because it's going to change your lifestyle. But I don't mean that with reference to the former president. You got to care what he says about you because it's going to change your lifestyle. But I don't like that it's true because I think that we are sacrificing a really important

look at what's going on in the country and what we need to get to a better place. I don't think that you're getting rid of Trump. I don't think you're that move away from making the country better. I don't think that you're getting rid of Trump. I don't think you're that move away from making the country better. I don't believe that. And I don't mean this, and please, everybody, just forgive me if it's not a good enough analogy. But when we were going after Osama bin Laden, and I was spending an unusual amount of time in Pakistan and all these other places, the thing that they would always say is, you know, you'll get rid of him. There'll be another guy. And okay, is there another guy? Yes. Al-Zawahiri

and other guys, but are they as charismatic or as meaningful a symbol as OBL was? Probably not, but it does go on. And I think that's probably true here. No, I don't believe that people who voted for Trump are terrorists or bigots or prejudiced. Some of them are, and that's not unusual, but most overwhelmingly are not that in my opinion. And I know many on the left don't like to hear that, but I'm just saying it shouldn't be about Trump because I think it's much bigger than him.

I think he was an opportunist and, you know, bravo to him because that's politics. But I don't think you get to a better place if you make it about him as much as the Democrats have. You may win. And that's why they funded those extreme candidates in those primaries to give themselves the weakest challengers, which really pisses me off in terms of making themselves the better party. But I think it's got to be about more than him. Well, first of all, there will be another guy. There always is. There always will be. And there'll be another expression or someone trying to channel the expression of that, you know, dissatisfaction, anger, whatever. I mean,

what's interesting is that like the Democrats, a guy like, say, Fetterman in Pennsylvania, he has something that's kind of original and new. I mean, he's a different kind of Democrat personality. He dresses funny. He's tall. He's weird looking. He's. I mean, he's a different kind of Democrat personality. He dresses funny. He's tall. He's weird looking. He's extremely, I mean, when he's at his peak, and he's not now because he's still recovering from the stroke, but he's got an interesting rap

and an interesting story. Republicans will figure out a way to vilify him like they did Obama, like they do Biden now. Look, Democrats are not great at selling whatever their story is. There's no question about that. I think you got to change the game. I think as long as it's me versus you, there's too much temptation in you versus me. As long as it's allowed in the game, and it is, for you to say, he's just a bad guy. He's a bad guy. And okay, yeah, you got me.

Leibovich didn't pay his taxes. Okay, Cuomo's worse. And here bad guy. And okay, yeah, you got me. Leibovich didn't pay his taxes. Okay, Cuomo's worse. And here's why. And okay, yep, you don't like my position on this. Okay, true. But this guy did all it. It works too well right now for you to try to come and make a case about why you're better.

You know, look, people should, it should resonate. It should work. But there's something energetically, there, people should, it should resonate. It should work. But there's something energetically, there's something emotionally, viscerally that doesn't allow advantage for somebody saying, we can be better than this. To overwhelm the way, if you let this guy in, bad things are going to happen. He will take this, he will change that, and this will be, that works better, especially in a binary situation. What's your thought about what you do in that circumstance? Well, first of all, it is harder to do that in a Senate race, but I take your point. I think that in a situation like that, you just have to fight like hell. You have to say, you know, this is bullshit. And maybe you don't say bullshit, but you say something real.

I actually think you're right, by the way. I think you don't say bullshit anymore. Even I, I've had people say to me, I love what what you do brother um you don't need to curse like that and i've actually been pulling back on it because you know i guess i felt that it was okay now for me to speak the way i do when i'm on the dock with my buddies and we should be better if you want to be better be better in every way that you can so one you're right you don't say bullshit you should find a more eloquent way because you're trying to make the case that we're better. Continue. Yeah. Say BS or whatever, whatever it is. But look, I mean, get mad. Just like talk every day in a press conference, like like just yell at the guy. Say this isn't true and this is why this is why you're playing to the word.

And, you know, just get out there because when you're being attacked for better or for worse, you have an audience. But look, just fight back because what is being hurled at you is not in good faith. It's not fair. It's not 100 percent true. Look, I mean, the private conversations that are going on now, I know because I had them when I was reporting the book. I mean, I've never in all my years of reporting seen a bigger gap between what politicians say to me. And you probably have the same experience, say privately and what they say publicly. I mean, obviously a public person makes you crazy, doesn't it?

Absolutely. And, you know, if I could burn them, I'd burn them, right? It'd be probably sell better than it even did. But I can't do that. But I mean, there's enough there to, and enough truth comes through when you interview these people that if you listen to it, you can, you can find the truth, even if people don't know they're being inflammatory. So, you know, when Lindsey Graham says, look, I just want to be relevant, that to me speaks volumes. Okay, relevant. At what price relevance, right? So if you're a John Cornyn who was just reelected two years ago, like a, you know, just sort of a regular Republican senator, why not just be the guy who says, yeah, this is wrong. And by the way, President Trump shouldn't be thrown around racist slurs at

my friend Mitch's wife here. And good for hypothetical John Cornyn. Now, is that going to happen? No, because then everyone will be like, hey, be quiet. You're just like, you know, we got to circle the wagons now. And that's what we do. And also Trump will get triggered. And then we'd have another four days of you going back and forth and you'd get a nickname and he'd be mean to you. And my God, how scary is that? So look, we know where this is going to lead, but I don't know if it were me, I would. Look, no shame in my game. I've been using AG one for over five years.

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Restrictions apply. You see the website, you'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, the price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. So what happens to change where we are right now? And let me just add one fact to the question. One fact is that the fringes are on the decline. Social media aside, where, you know, not you, but I'll actually take some of the blame for this, where people in the media use social media as a proxy for Vox Populi, and it isn't. It is magnified fringes, but they are on the wane. The biggest growing number in the electorate are people who don't want to be part of either party. So the majority of the country and probably about two thirds of the country doesn't really want to play this game that they've become a little bit conditioned to slash obsessed with watching.

That's a good fact. So given that fact, what changes this? I'm going to say something that probably would be mocked if I said it. Well, you know, I don't care. Let them mock it. People mock Joe Biden all the time, especially on the left, especially on the left, but also on the right for all of his kind of kumbaya, like coming together rhetoric. I mean, he was getting all kinds of heat yesterday from the left. Like, oh, he's standing with Ron DeSantis. He said he's doing a good job after this hurricane. And I'm sure DeSantis, I mean, he was getting all kinds of heat yesterday from the left. Like, oh, he's standing with Ron DeSantis. He said he's doing a good job after this hurricane. And I'm sure DeSantis, I mean, I haven't checked, but I'm sure DeSantis got some blowback for

appearing with Biden. And, you know, they had a nice little photo op. And, you know, Biden has not really unified the country like he said he was going to be. But I think it's great to have a president that tries and that continues to try and talks a good game. And like, remember during the one sixth hearing, like a few months ago, one of the oath keepers, one of the, one of the guys who got arrested, he testified and it was kind of a sad, but compelling testimony. And then he immediately went up to the cops there afterwards that, you know, who were attacked or the Capitol

Hill police. And he just hugged them or he shook their hands and that, you know, who were attacked or the Capitol Hill police. And he just hugged them or he shook their hands. And, you know, there's a big cynical thing. OK, he's trying to probably get a lighter sentence. You know, his lawyer probably told him to do that. You can be cynical anyway to Sunday for that. I think those things are beautiful. I think moments of grace, even if they're politicians, being graceful are extremely important in setting.

And again, maybe I'm a sap here, but in setting the right kinds of example that, by the way, I mean, every time a hurricane or something like that happened for four years, one of the single worst things that Trump did is he just made everything worse all the time. You know, there is a terrorist attack in London. Oh, let's have the president attack the Muslim-born mayor of London. I mean, God only knows. I mean, throwing paper towels at the porter. I mean, whatever. I mean, that to me was just so, I mean, the other version of the word grotesque, right? I mean, I think it's a beautiful thing that we have a president, and it's a low bar at this point,

but we have a president who tries, and will continue to try, and maybe he's gotten, maybe he's a sucker, but I think that's a good thing. And I think that that's the level of kind of baseline grace that we need to at least think about trying to get back to. It makes me wonder, what is public virtue? What is good i mean everything that we say in is good in politics is a function of holding somebody else down you know what i mean like right you know right now i mean there's a perverseness here to the discussions we have and it's like are we about virtue well you know what are we about virtue? What are we about that's good? Well, we're about freedom. Okay. But we seem to be exercising that only mean I have the freedom to hate and want to hold down and want to otherize anybody that I can.

And it's just so weird in a place that is culturally Christian that there's just no place for it in the public forum right now of being a good man or woman and exercising virtue. It's not there. It's just nobody's exhibiting that because nobody's asking for it. I mean, I think virtue is almost too high a bar. I mean, I would even just go for, like just decency, like be a good guy. I mean, believe me, I've known, I've been known as a cynic for years. Like the books I've written, the stories I've written, everyone's like, oh, Mark's just like the cynic. And he writes, you know, tough profile, whatever. I mean, I always, the older I've gotten, and maybe this is just me getting older or living

through Trump or living through a pandemic or seeing my kids grow up or whatever it is, the power of extremely basic decency to people who deserve it, which is pretty much everyone. You know, I was like flying back from somewhere the other day. I had a flight delay in O'Hare and I was sitting next to some guy in the airport at the airport bar. We're like watching. There was a football game on. What did we talk about? We talked about our families, our flight delay and whatever game was on. It was like a it was an Alabama game or something. I talked for about 20 minutes. He asked me what I do. I said, you know, I wrote for The New York Times for 16 years. All right. For The Atlantic. And he's clearly a Trump guy. I could tell, by the way, he looked at me, we shook hands, we said,

all right, we won't talk about politics. But, you know, it was a fine 20 minute conversation between two Americans at the airport. And the conversation might not have gone to a good place if he said, you know, I think the election was stolen from Trump. I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't have engaged, I don't think.

But look, to me, that's like baseline decency. I don't care if you're a public person or a private person or a person walking down the street. I mean, whatever. Just do your best. I mean, I don't think – I think, again, things like virtue and freedom are big and almost too complicated concepts because they're too subjective. Yeah, I hear you. They sound highfalutin too. I totally get it.

That's also why I'm not cut out, you know, for running for office. But you know, I talked to so many, and I'm really lucky in that I've taken the time to distance myself from social media. I mean, I'm still there. I'm on social media. But I realized, you know, a while ago that there is a disconnect and I'm playing to the echo chamber within the fringe fold because that's what cable news is. That's where I was. That's what I was being judged. That's where my competition is. That's what resonates. Those are the people who watching and boom. Right. But it really does seem to me that if we could get to a place where we say, just apply the rules and standards that you do everywhere else in your life,

your fantasy football league, your weekly poker game, the people that you spin with and then go to lunch after or whatever, your parenting, your friend group, your coupling or throupling or whatever you do. Right. Those standards don't make politics and government subject to a different set of rules. It's just, if you're full of it, then I don't really trust you on a regular basis. And if I screw up and I come to you and I say, look, man, it's not what you think it was, but I am sorry that it was anywhere close to what you think it was. And I'm sorry, man, anywhere close to what you think it was. Right. And I'm sorry, man.

I shouldn't have done anything like that, even though I didn't even do what you think I did. Right. And that you then have the ability to say, okay, let's keep going with what brought us together in the first place, as opposed to, ah, now I got you. And now you're not part of the group anymore. And I win. Right. Just let's do that. And that was one of the things that kept coming back to me when I was reading your book. Thank you for your servitude, Mark Leibovich. And in the book,

you'll see that people keep making the decision in this really cool. A lot of you are going to be listening, but to those of you who are watching, you see the cover, which is a really cool illustration, by the way, of all of these different faces in the game. Reminds me a little bit of the mosaic that's behind the guys, Will Bond and the other guy. Yeah, a little bit. Kornheiser, yeah, yeah. Of how these people all kind of just keep making the worst choices. Now I say worst, but that's a defined term. They are the choices that you make to stay in a position of influence and access to Donald Trump within that party, within his term of power as president

and even beyond. And I just kept thinking to myself, you know, they could just have decided, you know what? I'm not going to go out of my way to be the Cornyn that you depict. I'm not going to die on this hill because nobody's coming with me and nothing better is going to happen, but I'm not going to do it either. And I'm going to say that. And I'm going to vote the way I would normally vote. And I would say kind of like a bunch of Joe Manchins on the right, because I subscribe to the theory that Joe Manchins sucks at playing team ball for the

Democrats, but he has not changed his politics and he is not a coal baron. This is who the guy has always been. And the party is now in a position where they can't work with the other side. But Joe Manchin, that's all he's ever done. And he's never been about the kinds of things they want to do now anyway. They just don't make that choice to make the moves that they would make in anything else that they do in their lives. anything else that they do in their lives, business, friendship, romantic, parenting, family, totally different set of rules and standards. Does it have to be?

No. Well, in some ways, I mean, it's set up. If Donald Trump had a boss, if he had a board, if he had stockholders, he would have been out of that job in, what, a week, two weeks or something, or a few months. I mean, Charlottesville, certainly. But, you know, the oversight of the American electorate in its entirety voting every four years makes you pretty much bulletproof. All they can do is impeach and convict you, which never happens. I mean, they impeach, but the conviction threshold is too high in such a partisan Senate. So, you know, in Nixon's case, you had a level of shame that even Nixon fell to and he resigned. He walked away. You know, that wouldn't happen today. He'd have had Fox News on his side. He'd have had like like he had had a completely complicit Kevin McCarthy, Lindsey Graham. I mean, you know,

the reason Nixon left is because you had, you know, Barry Goldwater and a bunch of elder statesmen, Republicans. Said we're going to go bad on you. I mean, that's why. I mean, not, you know, not to disrespect his decision, but it's easier to say you're going to resign when we say if you don't resign, we're going to vote you down and it'll probably lead to a prosecution. Right. I mean, exactly. So, I mean, but that's, you know, again, these are different times. I don't know what Nixon would have done today. Well, he wouldn't have had the options because for Trump to say that anything that they say or do

is illegitimate. Right. Everything they say is true isn't. And only I am telling the truth. they say is true isn't. And only I am telling the truth. And every operation of government is corrupt. We weren't there when Nixon was in power. You know, a lot of this stuff is a process of devolution. And it was ripe for when Trump wanted to do it. Had Trump run against Obama, I think Obama would have spanked him because the country was coming off Bush, which was bad enough for them once we all kind of realized that Iraq wasn't the place to go. Although it's amazing how often I still hear people on the right, Ari Fleischer will contact me every once in a while and say, hey, you know, it was good information, by the way. The weapons of mass destruction,

I mean, that was real stuff there. Really? Something for you to pursue, perhaps. But the idea that he would have been effective then, no, you needed Obama because it gave some heft to the white fright. I have guys who voted for Trump who will say to me, and this is an interesting

thing for you guys to do on your own. I don't know that you should judge it the way my friend does, but he says, let's watch some commercials and see how often you see white people versus when you see brown or other kinds of ethnic people. And I said, okay. So we watch. And I was like, all right, you know, there's a white guy and there's a white lady. Okay, there's a brown one. This is this one, he's Asian, you know, whatever. I don't know what that person is. And he's like, yeah, all right.

And I said, and what's your point? He says, this country's over 50% white, you know. I said, yeah. And he said, so then shouldn't the commercials, isn't it okay if over half the people are white? I said, yes, in a fair world, you would see people on TV that reflect your makeup as a society. But the corrective process in American culture is often pendular and goes farther in the direction of correction maybe than you need so that you'll see less than half the people are white now and more are black and Asian and Latinx or whatever it is.

There's more diversity because that's how we correct. And you overcorrect. And then it will come back to a baseline. And I don't love that, but that does seem to be the way. But this is a reasonable guy, by the way, and not a Trumper. He's embarrassed by Trump. He's your typical, I'm a fiscal conservative, social liberal. Right. But he does skew a little bit more to the right, more he's aged and gotten more into his own opinion. But I think that the left's reaction to that is to not treat it the way you would

anywhere else, which is to say, whoa, whoa. OK, I get why you feel that. But understand what we're trying to do here. Not trying to get rid of Leibovitch and Cuomo. It's just we don't want all Leibovitch and Cuomo. That's all. Right. That's not how it comes from the left.

It plays in to the right being able to make this a fear campaign. As in, to the right, being able to make this a fear campaign, and then it changes the game, and you get into a situation that is unnatural anywhere else other than in politics. If it were a company, you wouldn't deal with it like this. If it were a school, you wouldn't deal with it like this. If it were a community situation, if it was a fishing club, you would not deal with it the way we deal with it in our politics. The question is, what do you think might be a catalyst to get people to treat politics the way they treat everything else? You know, it'd be good if we had models, examples. You know, I think it's old-fashioned, but I think, you know, the sort of public gentlemanly decency that, I don't know, that politicians used to exhibit as sort of a matter of course would help. But look,

politics has become just sort of this blood sport. I mean, look, we've been saying this for decades, but I mean, Donald Trump sort of raised this to a level of, these are bad people, meaning our opponents are bad people.

They are corrupt. They are sick. I mean, just think of the language everyone used. What did Marjorie Taylor Greene say the other day? And by the way, the continuum just keeps going down. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene could be. They thought Steve King was bad for cantaloupe. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We cry that we cry out for the gentleman, Steve King. But I don't know. I think I put a lot of the blame on the politicians themselves at this point. And I think a lot of them try their best. And they probably

aren't bad people. But the Republican Party is the story here. And the story continues to be those who prop up, you know, really, really dangerous instincts. Let me give people a flavor of a different part of your skill set. Do you have a favorite question or line of questioning in an interview? I always like to ask, what's the most stressful part of your job? Which always gets people thinking. I mean, I think sometimes they'll answer quickly. They'll say firing people or not being able to sleep or something like that.

But, you know, I'll even expand it. I'll say, what's the most stressful thing in your life? And that almost always gets to some kind of vulnerability, like that I might not measure up. You know, if you're like in a sort of national security space or in a policing space, that something will blow up. So, I mean, there's that. But a lot of the times you get answers that go to self-doubt, like, I don't know, maybe I'll lose. I'm terrified of losing. And why do you like that? Because I like it here. I want to be liked. And, you know, they don't say this explicitly. I mean, I think a lot of it is, you know, I need this pen. I need my parking space. I get status out of it. I mean, I'm going to go home to Montana.

What that question does, they say, I'm afraid of failing. I mean, they say it in so many words. I mean, and again, it takes them by surprise because, you know, politics is not a game of vulnerability. See, when you talk about interviewing, by the way, and you probably have figured this out as well as anyone. First of all, you got to listen and then you got to ask quick questions. I mean, the worst thing I think a lot of interviewers do when you're talking to a politician is you're shy and you're sitting with Donald Trump and you say, Mr. Trump, isn't it true that, and you know, he's just, boom, you just click. Who was on, Rick Scott was doing a horrific job on, I guess it was CNN the other day, trying to defend the

Mitch McConnell, Elaine Chao thing. I don't know if you saw this, but like, I think Dana Bass said, are you okay with that? I don't know. I saw this, but I think Dana Bass said, are you okay with that? I don't know. I mean, I just like, quick, take them by surprise and you see the moment where they just like gasp, right? There's always that moment.

And if you're writing about it, you can describe it. So another question, I always ask how much people sleep because they often lie about it. I mean, say, oh, I sleep four hours a night. No one willingly sleeps four hours a night, at least that I would want to be friends with. But to me, that's a window.

Like I sleep six hours, but I would like to sleep seven and a half hours, but I always wake up a couple of times and I can't get back to sleep. But I don't know, it's a window into the soul. What else? What's a part of your life where you have struggled. Because that always, if you're like talking to like Mr. and Mrs. Smooth and they're 55 years old and, you know, they're at the top of the hill and they're going for the, they'll say, well, you know, I've gotten people came out of nowhere saying, you know, there were times in my marriage when my wife and I were fighting all the time and we went to counseling. I mean, this was, I didn't expect that. So, you know, if you get them to sort of go to a vulnerable place. Why, why is vulnerability a good thing to get out of a subject?

Because you get more honesty that way and you see them more. I mean, vulnerability is kind of the under, it's the flip side of exposure. But no, I like vulnerability because otherwise you get artifice, right? Otherwise you get people protected in their armor and vulnerability is where we live as human beings. I guess why I would direct people to profiles that you do and to this book and certainly this town. That's a great book. That was number one bestseller. Although I can understand why Leibovitch

needed to write this book because the one that he made up, the town that he made up was really a victim of its own creativity because it that he made up, the down that he made up was really a victim of its own creativity because it can't match up to the reality. I'll tell you that right now. You don't use negativity as a proxy for insight. My experience is that most profiles, you do a profile of so-and-so and it's, this woman is really smart, really strong. She did this really well.

And listen to this struggle she said that she had. And it's really cool that she says that, you know, she's not really done with that yet, and she really wishes that this could have been different. She's doing the right things at the right time. People are like, Pfft, Leibovich, what a loser, what a softball, what a puff piece. What a loser. What a softball. What a puff piece. Right. But even if it is clearly beyond the reasonableness of what you could have ascertained in the conversation that you had, you smack them around.

The negativity is a proxy for the insight. And people will say, now, that was a good profile, boy. Leibovitz really came at him or her. And I think that's part of the insight. And people will say, now that was a good profile, boy. Leibovitz really came at him or her. And I think that's part of the problem. And I think it's part of human nature, but it's also about something that we try to course correct everywhere else in our life. I mean, how many times have you said to your kids or somebody, you know, that you're like kind of trying to help be better? Hey man, you can run her down all you want. That doesn't make you better, by the way. And you know, if you have nothing nice to say,

maybe you should just shut your mouth, you know, and just do your homework because your teacher's not your problem. You know, whatever the situation is, we don't do that in our politics and our media doesn't do it either. No, I think that that's a hundred percent true. I wish there were a how-to guide in all these jobs. There just isn't. I mean, I think what the best people do is a little different, right? It's a twist. It's original. It's smart. It's something that rises above Chris's threshold of, what was the word you used before? The threshold of indifference.

By the way, have I gotten above the threshold of indifference? That's why you're on the show, brother. All right. Yes. That should be the name of the podcast. You know, the rising up, it's too long, but no, I like the idea though of a threshold of indifference because I have a very solid. Well, you need to have it. If you're going to do a job where you're going to put yourself out there, and this is much more true for me than it is for you. Although, you know, you can see Mark a lot. He's on cable TV and he does a

lot of radio and he does stuff. He's out there. But you're not asking people every night, tell you how they like your face, you know, or whatever. Right. Right. You know, the BS. Thank God for that. No, you're kidding. You're a huge star. Rugged good looks. You have to be able to hold some of it off. And I'll tell you what, the tricky part is not having the indifference towards criticism and criticism, not again, in the classical sense of the word, which would be balanced, you know, now critical only means negative. And by the way, you know, the pushback for when they call you a cynic, you should say, thank you, because diogenes is a very big influence in my life. And cynicism as he developed it was

not just, I think everything sucks. It wasn't pessimism. It was, I'm going to stand one step outside and tell you what I see and the rest of all of you that you should examine. And I think it's a great thing. It's that you have to not listen to the shine the same way either, because the shine is as corrupting and influenced as the sour.

And it's easier to say, ah, and everybody's a hater. Haters are going to hate. That's easier than, you know what? I get that they like this, but I got to look at it. I get that they say this was good,

but I have to look at it. And how do I feel about what I did here and how I did? That's much harder. And that took me a longer time. And I have tons of built-in advantages. I grew up being examined from the age of 12. That's when Papa became governor. We went from just another Italian middle-class family in Queens to all of a sudden I'm in the mansion, you know, and everybody, you know, thinks you're special all of a sudden. And so I have some advantages, but it's very hard. So the indifference for me is that, you know, when people say compliment me nine times out of 10, I'll say, thanks for the generous assessment, which is my way of saying, you know, I'm not going to disrespect you for saying something nice to me. That's, that's not, that's not kind. That's not good. You know, if it's bad, I'll listen to it.

If it's good, you know, I'll, I'll listen to it if, if it's at all substantive, you know, but most of the time I got to tell you, especially on TV, it's, you know, the color you had on what you project and all that kind of stuff. But it's a good standard to have in the business that we're in. I mean, like tonight, I know this will be dated, but whatever. I'm interviewing Tony Fauci. And here's my angle. I don't think Fauci's friends do him a favor of having him on and not giving him the opportunity to respond to what he is getting clubbed with like a baby seal everywhere else i think that if you're my friend you're going to tell me what they're saying okay and give me a chance on a platform to answer it right and i'm not talking about petty

personal shit i'm saying this is what they're saying. They're saying that you absolutely funded and wanted to do research on this stuff in Wuhan. And I think you should answer it like completely and once and for all answer it. And I'm going to do that. Now, I happen to like Tony Fauci. I happen to have grown up knowing Tony Fauci. I happen to have grown up raised by a man who helped get Tony Fauci into public medicine. And my father worked openly and in a big way with Tony Fauci on HIV

AIDS in the 80s in a very big way. And it was very big for Tony, a big part of his legacy. So I am absolutely not impartial. And I think that's going to motivate me to ask him questions that I guarantee you, you did not hear in his last six appearances on television. Because he's winding it up and he should get the chance.

Now, I will get attacked. People will say, you know, see, this is what he's doing. See, now he's attacking everybody because he's mad. He's mad about what happened to his brother. He's mad about what happened to him. he's mad about what happened to him he's beating up on tony fauci now i don't think it'll come across that way but i've also made a big decision which is i am not doing the shows anymore for the same people i'm really trying to get the people who aren't watching i'm really trying to get the majority of them to see i'm asking exactly what you people talk about when you do talk about this stuff in

your own lives. And I am treating things the way you think they should be treated when you watch the rest of us and are like, what is going on with these people? I'm playing to the disconnect. I'm living in that space, which is way harder, by the way. Oh, it's extremely hard. Are you kidding? Yeah, no, I don't envy. I mean, it's a big job, but you know, look, I'm glad you that space, which is way harder, by the way. Oh, it's extremely hard. Are you kidding? Yeah, no, I don't envy. I mean, it's a big job. But, you know, look, I'm glad you're doing it.

It'll be out on my social media and stuff. Nobody can find News Nation. I got to keep putting out this channel finder. I feel like doing an investigation of my own employer. They keep giving me numbers that their reach is as much or more as MSNBC and Fox, but not quite as much as CNN in terms of households. But all my friends keep telling me they can't find the channel.

And I got a lot of buddies who don't watch MSNBC. They would never ask me what channel it's on. And I have a lot of friends who don't watch Fox, but they know what channel it's on. So I have to get over that hurdle. Listen, brother, I'm not going to take any more of your time, but I will say this. I would love to have you on the TV show.

You're always welcome here, and not just to push a book. I'm happy to push your books. And I'm trying to create a salon effect of people who understand the game, but don't play the game, who aren't just, you know, pissing on everybody else, but helping people understand this is why it is what it is. Absolutely. Those are my two phrases. It is what it is, which I think is one of the most great things in thought, even though I don't really know what it means, but I say it all the time. And the only question that matters is why. And it's the only question. It's not my favorite question, though. My favorite question is, what was the hardest thing for you in this emotionally, especially for men? This, you mean?

Anything. When I'm interviewing somebody, and if it's a man especially, what was the hardest thing for you in this emotionally? As a TV question, you know, I don't believe in a single question. That is an ignorant supposition. It's about a line of questioning. It's about a conversation for people to get people into a place of openness and candor. So anyway, Mark Leibovich, the book is Thank You for Your Servitude. I will show it for those who are streaming and watching his pretty face. You can get it anywhere. I do suggest that you read This Town Also because the contrast of what was reality versus being stranger than fiction is really stark.

But he talks about what you think you know in a way that you haven't heard it before. Mark Leibovich, I appreciate your brother. Continued good work and thank you for helping. All thanks to you and we will see you again. I'd love to come on again. Brother, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you very much for watching and listening. Mark Leibovich, I told you he was really smart. He's been following the game for a long time and it's really interesting to get the insights about what we need to expose. Please remember to subscribe and follow. Don't forget your free agent merch. And you know you can call, right? 516-412-6307. You can leave a comment,

and I will take your listener calls by the batch and get back to you. Keep spreading the word. I'll see you here, and I'll see you here soon. Let's get after it.