The Chris Cuomo Project - Mehdi Hasan on Trump and Democracy’s Future, Biden and Gaza, and Leaving MSNBC

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Mehdi Hasan (founder, CEO, and editor-in-chief, Zeteo News) joins Chris Cuomo for a comprehensive discussion of contemporary politics and media dynamics. Hasan dives into his departure from MSNBC and aspirations for his new media company, Zeteo, the importance of critical journalism and the necessity of confronting ideological echo chambers, Donald Trump’s continued hold on the Republican Party, and whether Israel’s war against Hamas may end up costing Joe Biden the presidential election. Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You always hear about the big idea people on the right, but what about on the left? Who's making a difference? Who's the thought leader? Oh, I got the guy for you. And he's going to weigh in on why Trump has to be stopped, why the Democrats are the obvious choice, and what happens if the election goes the other way at home and in the riddle of the Middle East. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to another edition of the Chris Cuomo Project. This is about being a critical thinker, a free agent where you need food for thought. You don't have to love the menu, but you do need the nutrition in deciding what is right for you to believe and on what basis.

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and you can join part of the long COVID conversation that we're having there. Look that through the lens of my treatment, trying to get past my symptoms of long COVID. All right, so check that out. If you wanna wear your independence and I hope you are learning that the parties are the problem, you can go and get free agent gear

and wear your independence. All right, so Mehdi Hassan Was at MSNBC. I didn't like the circumstances under which he left He's decided to move on and start an amazing opportunity for him called Zeteyo Z-E-T-E-O it's a Greek word. Mehdi's not Greek. I know but the word is and it means to seek intellectually curiosity and he's starting his own independent media outlet. And I know it has not been easy for people on the left to make it.

Why? The left ideologically is not as much of a collective. I know many people on the right wanna believe that, but I think that that is projection. You want that to be true because it's what you crave in yourselves is that cohesiveness that is projection. You want that to be true because it's what you crave in yourselves is that cohesiveness that is an advantage on the right. The right always says the left sticks together. Again, I think that that's a nonsense device.

And I think the proof of it is often seen in the punditry. People make it on the right all the time. You got Ben Shapiro, Megyn Kelly. You don't have anything like that on the left where someone just shouts at people for a living and gets a huge following online. But Mehdi Hassan, I believe, is different. And I wanted to talk to him about the state of play in politics, why we are where we are, why he feels about Trump the way he does and what he sees as the stakes here and abroad. Mehdi Hassan. Mehdi, congratulations on the new you, the new evolution, the new iteration.

How do you feel about the transition? What have you decided about how to process the exit from MSNBC? What does it mean to you, and the transition? It feels good. I mean, it does feel good to be free and independent and liberated in many ways. That's not that I'm ungrateful to the opportunities I've had in corporate media and international media.

I'm someone for the benefit of your listeners who don't know my background. I grew up in the UK. I worked in the UK media for the first 15 years of my career. I worked for Sky News, for the BBC, for some of the big media organizations in the UK. I worked for HuffPost. I worked for Al Jazeera English, the Global Channel.

And in the US, I worked for The Intercept and of course for NBC News, for NBC Universal before leaving in January. So I've worked for a bunch of big media organizations on both sides of the Atlantic. I learned a lot, worked with great people. I still have a lot of respect for a lot of those organizations. I'm not one of these people who says burn it all down. But at the same time, it is great in this moment that we're in, Chris, which is a pretty major historical moment in terms of election year, in terms of the bloodshed in Gaza, in terms of everything that's happening in our global

politics, geopolitics. It's good for someone like me, who's always had a big mouth, always been quite opinionated and outspoken, to be my own boss and sail my own ship and decide my own destiny, whatever cliche we want to use. Zeteyo is what Mehdi's talking about. If you look it up, it's a Greek word. Really, it's such a great example of what Mehdi's mind is about.

It is a Greek word that means to seek, to find, but it's of an intellectual curiosity of a nature. It's not like, you know, to look for a certain mushroom in the grass. It's about ideas and intellectualism. And so is Mehdi. Mehdi, as people process the transition, what is your narrative on the exit from MSNBC?

And you know, this is coming from me. I am not a muckraker, I am not a drama guy, and I don't love the Salacious or the Gotchas. But people to know the background. I feel it's best heard from the source. Why did you leave? What was the exit?

What does it mean to you? So in terms of the background, the background is the NBC canceled my shows. I had two shows for the one on Peacock on the streaming network and one on cable on Sunday nights. Both did very well. The Peacock show did very well online as a social production and the cable show for Sunday night, Chris, which you know is a graveyard slot on cable, did pretty well in that time slot. What Mehdi just said is true. We looked at the reach and the ratings. There is no good

statistical argument that Mehdi was failing. So they got rid of him, which was out there in the media about what happened. Yeah, an anonymous source told the Post that it was a ratings issue, which is BS. At the end of November, shows are cancelled, and I was offered the Post, this is all public information, I was offered the title of a guest anchor and political analyst on air. And I thought about it, and pretty quickly, Chris, it wasn't really a hard decision to say, this is not for me. This is not what I want to spend 2024, which I consider to be one of the biggest years of our lifetimes

in terms of news impact politics. I love sitting in for Chris and for Alex and for Lawrence and the Bride Time guys. It's a great opportunity, great privilege to speak to the audience. But that isn't really what I wanted to spend my year doing. So it was a bit of a no brainer to speak to my wife and talk to people I trust and say, look, I'm just going to try and find a way out of MSNBC. MSNBC, to be fair to them, you know, allowed me to negotiate an exit, which let me leave pretty quick. I did my last show on, I think, January the 7th, where I announced I was leaving,

and then had a few weeks in between, and then launched the new setup. Piers Morgan asked me this the other day, like, why do they cancel shows? People keep asking this. Honestly, you would have to ask MSNBC. I was never told why. You didn't ask?

Of course I asked. And what'd they say? No reason given that I understand. Do you think that you were advancing ideas and agendas And what'd they say? No reason given that I understand. Do you think that you were advancing ideas and agendas that MSNBC doesn't want to own? It's a big question again. What MSNBC wants or doesn't want, you have to ask MSNBC. I've always advanced ideas and agendas that people are uncomfortable with, and that's

been the case throughout my career. I've always been a bit of a round peg in a square hole, both in corporate media, print media, et cetera, just because I'm a bit different to most people. I don't think it's controversial to say that I was pretty different to most of the anchors at MSNBC. I've been pretty different to most of the people in quote unquote mainstream media for a while now.

I'm proud of that. I come from a very different background. There's not many people at MSNBC hosting MSNBC who have my background, either ideologically, in terms of nationality, in terms of multiple journeys that I've been on. I moved to the US in 2015. I became a citizen in 2020. My politics are to the left of most people in cable. I am a Muslim who's quite outspoken on issues related to Muslims, Islam, the Middle East, foreign policy. So, and I'm not someone who plays the game, Chris. I mean, this is something I've talked about openly. There is a media game which

requires certain norms and conventions, and I've adhered to some of them, but others not so much. And whether it comes to my interviewing style, whether it comes to how I interact with people in power, I'm somebody who likes to try and do tough interviews with most people. Obviously, there's certain people, it's hard to do a tough interview, maybe you agree with everything they say, but even then, I try and be a devil's advocate and say, this is what your critics say. I was just interviewing the South African foreign minister. I support the South African foreign ministers, the South African government's petition at the ICJ

accusing Israel of genocide. That doesn't mean I didn't put criticism to the South African foreign minister from Israel, from South Africa's critics. So I've always been someone who tries to be tough on everyone, tries to speak my mind, don't worry about access issues. And obviously that doesn't fit with everyone. South Africa wasn't the my mind. Don't worry about access issues. And you know, obviously that doesn't fit with everyone.

South Africa wasn't the perfect messenger. I get why it seemed clever at the time. There is no perfect messenger. True, true. I also don't think it is genocide. I also don't think it matters because whatever is happening, however you define it, it's too much and it needs to stop. I agree and disagree with what you just said.

So Mehdi has a book over his shoulder called Win Every Argument, which I have, and it needs to stop. I agree and disagree with what you just said. So, Mehdi has a book over his shoulder called Win Every Argument, which I have. And it is a really interesting book about, really rhetoric about how to understand argumentation, how to argue. Mehdi is a master and champion debater, and he's very good at it on TV. Here's my supposition for you.

I believe that you have a chance of being a unicorn, which is someone on the left that can gather a following in digital media. It's very easy for people on the right. They're a much more cohesive group. You guys on the left are much more cats to their doggy mentality in terms of being a pack animal. I think you can do it.

And I wish you will, inshallah. But is it a fair criticism that the problem with you people on the left is that you win a lot of arguments. You just don't win over people's hearts and minds to your side. You're very smart and very clever and adept. You just don't get where America is coming from. And that's why you have all you can handle in the form of one of the most flawed candidates

in political history in Donald Trump. I 100% agree with everything you just said. In fact, chapter two of my book is about that very premise. The idea that you have to be able to win people over with their hearts and not just their minds. You have to be able to offer emotional arguments and not just logical, rational arguments. And it has killed me, Chris, for 20, 25 years, as long as I've been covering politics as a journalist in the UK and in the US. This is not a US phenomenon.

This is a global left liberal issue, whether it's the Labour Party in the UK, whether it's the Democratic Party in the UK, whether it's the Democratic Party in the US, wherever you are, you do have a set of kind of technocratic managerial politicians who rise to the top of these liberal parties and then think that they can factually get their way to power. You see liberal parties always, I'll give you one more pew poll, I'll give you one more peer-reviewed paper, one more statistic. And that's just not how people operate. It's just not how human beings accept evidence, arguments, are persuaded. And I think

what the right has so successfully done over the years, and Donald Trump is a master of this in his own dark and evil way, is play to people's base emotions. The right does it with the worst emotions, in my view. Anger, fear, hate, you know, concern about the other. And what I say to liberals and leftists is you have to do the same thing, obviously not with dark emotions, but appeal to people's better angels, to, you know, solidarity, hope, community, inspire people with collective action. Tell a story, like the idea of telling a story is such a basic thing. Think about 2016.

Donald Trump says, build a wall, ban Muslims. We all still remember it. It's very, very similar. Islam hates us, he said. It's all, it's very, very evocative, provocative. We all, I literally can tell you his 2016 platform right now, eight years later. Can you tell me Hillary Clinton's? I'm sure she had a great childcare policy, much better than Trump's. I'm sure it had 16 different sections. Great. But that's

just not how you win people over by throwing policy papers at them or hurling facts and figures. And I trust that doesn't mean you give up on facts. Let me just be very clear so people don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying you go down the alternative facts route of Kellyanne Conway. I'm saying that in order to win people over, as you say, to see where Americans are, you have to be able to give them a factual proposal. You have to give them facts and figures, but you have to really, really connect with them at a very visceral emotive level. So, how is it that not only is the left not overwhelming the right, but is now defined

by many on the right as the darkness? You want to destroy, you want to replace the white man, you can't find white people in commercials anymore. And all of the other tropes and fears and phobias that it's the left that is about the darkness. They don't want, they wanna destroy everything. Sexuality, now our institutions, you guys prosecute all your political opponents.

Look what you're doing to poor Trump. 90 different indictment counts, gazillions of dollars in fines, deep state. These are all left vehicles now. I grew up with them as right vehicles. What happened? Well, I think that the right has done two things very successfully. One is owning the libs has become the mantra. There is no real ideal. What is the modern conservative movement? Is it about low taxes? Is it about strong defense? Is it even about tough borders as they claim?

If you think about Ronald Reagan or whoever it is, even George W. Bush, there is some kind of ideological platform that we understand. For me, one of the most telling moments in modern conservative history, Republican Party history, is the 2020 platform when the Republican Party, the RNC says, we have no platform. We just support Donald Trump. If they're ever more telling, you know, when people say, oh, you can't call it a cult, it's literally a cult. The RNC said so in August 2020, when they said we've got no platform. So this idea that doesn't stand for anything, there is no modern conservative movement, and therefore it only stands for owning the

libs in the most vicious, the most insulting, the most immature way. And by the way, not just the libs. Do you remember when Mitch McConnell fell, he fell some steps and you had people like, what's her name? Jenna, what's her name, a Trump's lawyer? Jenna Ellis. Jenna Ellis and others just mocking him on so like, I don't like Mitch McConnell, but I'm not going to mock an old man who falls down some stairs.

This is what it's reduced to. It's the most kind of pathetic, childish, immature, venal, vicious approach to politics. And that includes obviously the left. And we're seeing that with the rhetoric now. The left are just left. They're communists. They're Marxists. They're cultural Marxists.

All this BS. Joe Biden's a communist. Don't make me laugh. So this kind of nonsense that we have. And then the other point is this, is that it's a very, very calculated form of projection, Chris. What they're saying, they're often describing themselves. You know, I often use the hashtag on social media, every accusation is a confession.

A lot of what they say is what they're doing. So when they're saying Hunter Biden is really, really corrupt, it's because they saw four years of Trump and his family milking it. When they say that, for example, if you notice, Chris, the Donald Trump now talks about democracy a lot. Because for four years, finally the liberals got their act together, had a coherent argument that the Republican Party is an existential threat to American democracy, is engaged in the voter suppression, tried to overturn an election, doesn't believe in our democratic

institutions. And now their only response is they will election, doesn't believe in our democratic institutions. And now their only response is they will, Biden doesn't believe in democracy. And you know, this is a president who spent four years threatening to lock up his opponent, demanding the DOJ go after his opponents. People have such short memories, Chris. Do you remember the image Trump posted once of all these political figures, including his own deputy attorney general, behind bars? Yes. Right? Brand of people were behind bars. Yes. That guy is now saying,

oh, you're weaponizing the government to go after me. So it's all projection, and they are masters of projection. Support for The Chris Cuomo Project comes from AG1. If you're a long time listener, you know I've been drinking AG1 for over five years. Okay? I started drinking it daily because it was easier, it was less expensive, and the thinking was done for me, okay?

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Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hey, I'm Tom Power. I'm the host of the CBC podcast, Cue with Tom Power. I get to talk to artists from all over the world, writers, musicians, actors, directors, all kinds of creative people.

And we try to have the conversations you have with really, really good friends. The conversations you have when you share a love of something, about ideas, when you want to hear about everything. I feel really lucky to have these conversations. Cue with Tom Power, available now on Spotify. So one of the sticks I've been beaten with recently is that I underestimate dangerously the dangerousness of Donald Trump. My suggestion is pretty simple. I'm

not gonna argue that he doesn't say what he says. I'm gonna argue that it doesn't mean what it would if you said it because this man is a lie machine and a hyperbole machine and you have to look at it that way. That the idea that he's a man of great vision and strategy, who wants to become an autocrat and is going to put people around him, who can help him overthrow America's democracy, I think is a laughably absurd notion. And the more the left insists on it,

the more it makes people think who are in the center, right, that small group, that you guys are exaggerating the problem because you don't have better ideas. So a couple of things. I'll engage in the substance of what you said in a moment, but let me just question your premise. This is a left critique.

I know, Chris, I get it where you're coming from. You have this kind of stick, you're in the center, there's a right and there's a left and you're above the fray. That, first of all, that's not true, but where does this left come from? Some of the most. First of all, that's not true. But where does this left come from? Some of the most eloquent, passionate and most informed critics of Donald Trump's fascism and assault on democracy are not leftists.

It's true. Judge Michael Lutig is not a leftist. Liz Cheney, last time I checked, is not a leftist. True. George Conway is not a leftist. True. All of the former Trump administration officials who have said the man's crazy, he's an authoritarian, General John Kelly.

They're not leftists. Right? So they're not leftists. General John Kelly. Right? So they're not leftists. I don't accept the premise that this is a leftist critique, not at all. In fact, there are people on the left who attack people like me and say you're being hyperbolic and agree with the premise of your statement. So it's not a left thing. Let's just put that to one side.

In terms of the substance, number one, let me snarkily say this. Chris, did you think Donald Trump would incite an insurrection and refuse to leave office in 2019, in 2020? No, but I also wouldn't characterize the behavior the way you did. You don't think he incited an insurrection? No. I don't think it was an insurrection. I think it was a riot.

Okay, did you? Okay, I don't agree with that for a second, but let's part that for a moment. Did you in 2019 or 2020 say Donald Trump will refuse to leave office and incite a riot, an attack on the Capitol? No. I did. In 2019, I wrote a piece for The Intercept saying Donald Trump is very clear about the fact that he won't accept the election result and he won't leave and people are ignoring

this danger. And if this, you know what's going to happen? Violence and rioting. I wrote this in The Intercept in I think May of 2019, about 18 months before the election. People said to me, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a Brit. You don't understand American politics. The Secret Service will walk him out.

There's no danger here. This is all hyperbole. So my first point, Chris, is forgive me when I hear people say it's hyperbole. I was right then and they were wrong. So maybe we should have a little bit of humility from the folks who say calm down. A lot of the calm down folks were completely wrong on January the 6th, 2021. That's my first point.

And then in terms of the substance, I mean, he is saying this stuff. I agree with you, Chris. He's a liar. He's an exaggerator. He, you know, I completely agree with you. He's not a strategist. I don't think you need to be a strategist to be an autocrat strategist. I don't think you need to be a strategist

to be an autocrat, right? I don't think you need that. I think you had autocratic tendencies and instincts, and then it's an issue of whether those around you and the institutions- And they usually have a plan, Mehdi, as we both know. Well, he's got people around him.

Have you read the Heritage Foundation 2025 report? It's a pretty clear plan for authoritarianism. Pretty well laid out over multiple pages. But just go back to Trump. Okay, when I say, so a friend of mine said recently, a friend of mine who doesn't want to vote for Biden because of Garson. So I can't vote for Biden. I said, well, what happens when Trump's president?

And they said, well, you know, we'll protest Trump just like we protested him the first time. But how do you vote for Trump if you don't like Biden's position on the other? No, no, they didn't say they would vote for Biden. They said, well, they don't care if Trump wins. They're so mad at Biden. They don't care if Trump wins. And I said, what are you going to do once Trump's president?

You're Muslim. You're going to suffer. We'll protest. We protested the first time. I said, what happens when he puts the military on the streets and they open fire on protesters? Oh, Mehdi, you're being exaggerated. Too far.

Mark Esper, Chris, I bet you know better than I do, just went on MSNBC last week and said, he told me to shoot protesters. I said, we can't do it. Mark Esper won't be there next time. Next time it'll be Cash Patel or General Michael Flynn. He'll say, sure boss, whatever you want. So when you tell me like, it's hyperbole exaggeration,

it's not, he's already said it. He already gave the order to shoot people. We just got lucky first time around that there were a few half spined conservatives in his administration who said no, they won't be there next time, Chris. It'll be Michael Davis. It'll be Michael Flynn. It'll be Cash Patel. It'll be Sebastian Gorka. Who will love it? So you really believe if Donald Trump wins again, there's all kinds of mayhem and he

is doing everything he can not just to settle scores, but to turn himself as closely as he can into Putin. Yes. Why would I not believe that? Every bit of evidence we have, public and private, suggests that is his plan, and that is the plan of people around him. And the rest of it...

Because the institutions are too strong, and because the... Oh, the institutions are a joke in this country. Which institutions? Is this the Supreme Court that's now running down the clock Because the institutions are too strong and because the branches of government are too strong. Which institutions? Is this the Supreme Court that's now running down the clock on his behalf so that he never faces a single federal trial before the next election, which in any other country would be laughed at?

Chris, let me just bring you the immigrant perspective here. The rest of the world thinks we are a joke when it comes to our institutions. In Brazil, Bolsonaro didn't incite an insurrection. He simply questioned the results. The Brazilian judges banned him from running for president again until 2030. We have judges in this country who, by the way, are appointed by the president. Absurd system. No other country does it this way.

They have independent judges, not party nominated judges. Our judges, three of whom were appointed by Trump, are now running down the clock on his behalf. This ludicrous decision to hear his immunity case at their own slow pace. So no, I don't believe the institutional front. I believe we dodged it in January of 2021 by the skin of our teeth, by people like Raffensperger happening to be in the right place at the right time, by the Supreme Court in that moment realizing that none of the 60 cases, including the Pennsylvania case, were worth hearing. Next time around it's a different ballgame. You've

seen the Republican Party, what they beat up two recent years. They've purged any of those folks from 2020. Raffensperger, thankfully, did just get reelected in Georgia. They weren't able to get rid of him. But in other places in Michigan, they've carried out purges. And this time around, yeah, they're much better to take on our institutions. Which institution? The House? Chris, the Republican Party in Congress is a Trump party. You know this. Chris, the Republican Party in Congress is a Trump Party. You know this. Mm-hmm. It has been to date.

There are different ways to look at it, certainly as a matter of degree. How so? Well, when you listen to General Kelly, now do I wish he had been saying these things while he was chief of staff? Absolutely. But even with a pretty weak, okay, Esper, I would put it the stronger scale of this, although he made the decision to work for Trump,

he had that good explanation of, I knew this guy was gonna have to need good people around him, because all right, I'll give it to him. But that could break either way, you know, out of conscience, you could also say, no, I won't work with this guy, and let me tell you why. But that with a pretty weak lineup around him, there was a lot of pushback.

And the theory from even John Kelly is, the stronger people are around him. If you had regular people who were around other White Houses that he had interfaced with, they would have been a much bigger check. So even with these weak people, people were telling him, no all the time. And he listened to them because as

long as it's good for him somehow at the end of the day, he goes along with it. He doesn't have what most people who want you to shoot at protesters have in their heads about why. And that for him, it's really that he wants to win. He wants to stall these lawsuits. And agreed, it's really that he wants to win, he wants to stall these lawsuits, and it's basically the end of it. Here's where we agree, is that the one saving grace we have with Trump as the autocrat in waiting is that he doesn't have an underlying ideology of any kind.

He's not all-band Putin, Erdogan, MBS, Modi, in that shape or form. He wants to be liked. He wants to save his ass right now, right? In terms of the legal situation. And be liked. He wants to be liked, Mehdi. If you were to go on TV tonight and say... Well, he's not running a campaign that implies he wants to be liked at all.

He's running a base campaign. He wants to be liked by his base. He's given up on any kind of... In 2016, he was reaching out to independents trying to pretend to be anti-establishment candidate of workers. Not now. He's not even trying. But Mehdi, he has a out to independence, trying to pretend to be anti-establishment candidate workers, not now. But, Meti, he has a pathology involved in his behavior. I can use that word with you, that most politicians don't. He is an actual amoral agent, as somebody

who has studied philosophy for 35 years of my life. He's also a malignant narcissist. And you mentioned pathology, Chris. Here's another, sorry to do another kind of I told you so moment. Back in 2018-19, Dr. Bandy Lee of Yale put out a book called The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. A bunch of psychiatrists analyzed him in different angles. I pushed that book heavily.

I had her on my podcast at the Intercept. I went and spoke at a conference. She organized. People said to me, this is crazy. This is a left going over the cliff, like trying to psychoanalyze the president. This violates all sorts of medical rules. Guess what?

John Kelly, who you just mentioned, he bought the book. The guy in the White House who was chief of staff was using the book as a guide to his boss. I do think it's weird for clinicians to want to analyze somebody that they haven't met. It is weird, but it's a unique, you know, we live in a case of lots of unprecedented bobbits thanks to Trump.

And he's a pretty obvious narcissist. But to come back to your point on the yes man and the no man. I'm not denying that there were people who said no around it. They didn't say no enough, like you just pointed out, they didn't resign and say their peace at the time. And by the way, even with those adults in the room, he still almost started a nuclear war with North Korea. He still almost started a war with Iran.

He still kidnapped children at the border. He still praised neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, he still allowed a half a million Americans to die who probably many of them didn't need to die from COVID. So even with that, he was a disastrous, perhaps the most disastrous president of our modern American history. I'm saying next time around, Chris, there aren't going to be those people. He is coming back with vengeance. Four years is a long time. He's not the same Trump as term one. He is going to come back much angrier, much more organized and surrounded by way more yes men and open fascists like the Bannons of this world than he did last time around. I'll give you an example, Chris. Just one example. Mike Davis, who Don Jr. is touting as future AG or future senior figure in the administration, conservative lawyer, used

to be a Bush guy guy gone full MAGA. This guy is on Twitter saying, I'm going to deport Mehdi Hassan to Guantanamo Bay, right? Now, he doesn't have the power to do that, even as attorney general. But those are the kind of people that he wants to, he and his people want to bring into the administration. It is not Jeff Sessions, as bad as Jeff Sessions was,

he was still a conventional conservative. I understand. I understand the concern. I don't believe it. And now you could say, well, you're being delusional. I don't think so. I just think that I'm being swayed by my very long time knowledge of him. So what do you think is going to happen, Chris? I've laid out my vision. What do you think is going to happen from 24, 25 on when he's president? I'm not sure that he wins. No, no, let's assume he wins.

Alright, so if he wins, one, does the left create any dynamic like the one we had after the last election? I don't know. Not that it would be baseless, but is Donald Trump, are the people around him capable of rigging 100%, they're capable of it. So what if we get real proof that he rigged the election and that's why he won? I think he's much more likely to rig an election

than it is likely that it would be rigged against him. So I gotta see what happens with that. Then if he wins, I believe that that is so much of what the satisfaction was for him that he may coast from silly media fight to media fight and he will do a lot of saber rattling against us. I think that will be his main focus. Because the Democrats will all fall in line

like every out party does. Unfortunately. What do you think, I said two questions, what do you think happens to all these freaks around them? The heritage folks, the ideologues, the batters. You think they just go- You know, he has been- You don't think they have real clear plans

on the social liberal culture wars front on these down-piling fronts? He's not a Heritage Foundation guy. But they're the ones who are going to be... They're the ones pushing... They are pushing certain things. Whatever kind of agenda you want to call. Talking about firing the civil servants.

They were very effective in the judges. Yes. Deep state stuff as they call it, which I don't believe in, by the way. Bureaucracies definitely have their entrenched issues, but I don't believe in what is called deep state. I believe it's a false negative. But it's projection, right, Chris? They want it to be a deep state that they can then weaponize. The stuff they say about Biden runs the FBI, Biden has nothing to do with the FBI. That's what Trump wants. We know that. You and I both know he would love to have an FBI chief. I think that's a little bit too clever for them. I think that's...

You don't think Donald Trump wants to have an IRS chief and an FBI chief and go after his enemies? I think that he absolutely likes the idea of power so he can abuse it. I think we have every bit of evidence. So that's my question to you, Chris. Where are the abuses of power that you are worried about? You're saying you don't think... You think I'm behind, but you must be concerned about some abuses of power under Trump.

What are they? I guess that I have been reserving judgment because I don't think he's going to win. He could win. He could win. And the polling now has been bad longer than I expected it to be. But I did not expect a non-campaign from the sitting president either. And I did not expect him to not take any action on the border when it clearly has become the dominant domestic issue. I did not expect that. But he has tried to take action, not actually I agree with, but the Republicans screwed

him for political reasons. They screwed him on that Senate bill. Yes. And we know it because they said it out loud. All right. Which to me would have been the biggest shock in recent history to hear that out loud that way I've never heard that before a second. I wasn't shocked. Um, he could take issue though he could he could take issue right now with his own executive action and Would he be challenged in the courts potentially depends on what they architect But even still it would move the needle in his favor because he'd be trying at least

But I don't know why they're playing it that way. So that aside, I don't know what to fear of Donald Trump. And I know that many people say, but Chris, that's enough. That you don't know, but you know that he's gonna do something, that's enough, he has to lose. And I say, okay, then beat him.

I'm worried about the lawsuits because it looks like from the outside or from the person who's not as invested in the minutia as everyone who covers it, it does look like they're out to get them. That a lot of these cases, a lot of the counts seem a little weak. We've been talking for about half an hour.

This is the moment I've disagreed with you the most. Please, I love it. I'm of the exact opposite view. I am tearing my hair out at Merrick Garland, wishing we had an AG who was out to get Donald Trump. Instead we had an AG who slow walked the entire damn thing, was way too cautious and small C conservative. He should have put Elizabeth Warren in there.

He should have put a Rottweiler into DOJ Biden. Instead he appoints this kind of centrist Republican, let's all be come by our friends type who doesn't want to mention the Trump name, who wants to kind of avoid anything Trump related, as we know from a lot of the Washington Post reporting. And now we're finding out that the Southern District of New York has screwed over the Manhattan case. Again, many questions for Garland. So no, again, it's projection. And also when I hear Trump and the Republicans say, Garland's out to get us, Garland, this is a campaign, a witch hunt. I'm like, if only, I think I say if only, if only they were out to get them.

If only they were single-minded in their pursuit of this guy who tried to overturn our government, it wasn't just a riot, as you suggested. So no, I don't know what it looks like to certain swing voters. But to me, who's been following this for years, tearing my hair out, wondering why they haven't taken more action, why Liz Cheney did more to hold Donald Trump to account than the Democratic Attorney General. Yeah, I come from an exact opposite position. By the way, quick thing before I forget, it's been in my head for a bit. Do you believe in 2028, President Donald Trump just says, it's been great. See you later, guys. I'm

off to play golf. Maybe with a strong suggestion that the next one should be one of his kids. Interesting. That's an interesting point. God help us all. You know, I'm much more about understanding the present than I am about any kind of sense of prognostication because to me, I reject the idea that it's a cult. I reject the idea that... You reject the idea that the GOP is a cult? Yes. I reject the idea... I think it's all about the two-party game and it's all zero-sum.

And they want to win. And that that is the only goal in two-party politics is to win. Then they wouldn't nominate Donald Trump. He is the best chance to win. Nobody does better. If they wanted to win, Nikki Haley would be the candidate. And I should walk, all the polls suggest she wipes Joe Biden off the board. Why would you nominate the guy who lost in 22, 2020 and 2018? Why would they nominate him if they didn't fear what happens if they don't?

They fear what happens to themselves because he runs a personality girl and he runs a mob style movement. Some of these people fear for their own lives, Chris. This is the America we live in today. Political lives. They fear he's going to primary them and win. No, no, no. They fear for their safety and their family safety, right? Unless Mitt Romney's lied. Mitt Romney has gone on the record and said that members of Congress told him they couldn't vote for impeachment because they were worried that their children would be attacked. Their wives were getting death threats.

Multiple House members have quit. That is America in 2021. Never happened in my lifetime. I believe in your lifetime where people are having to quit politics because their own supporters might kill them or hurt them because they go against a great dear leader, the orange man. So no, I think it is a cult

and that's the only way you can explain how, I'm not saying everyone's in the cult. Chris, clearly there are cynical members. There are people trying to get ahead in life. There are people who have put their, JD Vance is not in a cult. We know that JD Vance thinks Donald Trump is Hitler. We know that, because he said so.

We know that JD Vance backs Trump, because it's self-serving. It's expediency. He could get the vice presidency and boost his career. He shouldn't be anywhere near a high office. So those people put you on side, but in general, the kind of the freak show in Congress, the people out there in the base who worship Trump, who, you know, you've seen the clips and you've seen the polls and you've seen the focus groups that they will believe anything he says, that they will oppose anything he says.

I don't need any of them. I live in a place that he won. And a lot of the people who are in... They're all rational actors? Who are in my life, like that I fish with and that, you know... And they're rational actors? They are rational actors, small businessmen, almost exclusively, some first responders. And they are not under the sway of Trump, except for one thing. And this is what I don't understand, why it isn't more of a motivational tool on the left.

Go on. They are so, I've learned two things. One, why do they dismiss his obvious flaws as someone they wouldn't want in their house, on their boat or anything? Because they believe two things. One, it takes that kind of guy to deal with this kind of dirty system.

And two, they're all kind of like him. Enough so they don't get to judge Trump and tell these people, leads me to the second point, they are so outraged, hurt, disappointed, put in the pejorative that goes to emotional letdown that you don't get to tell me that Trump isn't worthy when I find you unworthy. And everything is so stilted against me,

culturally, endemically, systemically. You're so against me and for everybody else that this guy is the virus that I need. I don't worship him as a cure. He's a virus and I'm going to inject him into the political corpus and make you motherfuckers sick. That's where their heads are. I've met those people too. I've spoken to inject him into the political corpus and make you motherfuckers sick. That's where their heads are. So I've met those people too, I've spoken to those people. It's interesting because you're dividing up the people now.

So we're not talking about the people who turn up at the rallies in the Red Hats who say he's the king, the leader, we love him, he doesn't lie. Some of them do, but I believe that they're supporting him the way I support the Jets. You know, that they are my team. I get it, I get it.

But you're talking about the people who say, look, we know he's a liar. We know he's a bullshitter. But that's useful to us for whatever reason. So let's deal with that a couple of ways. So let me respond in two ways. Number one, that's why some of us supported Bernie Sanders in 2016 and 2020, because that anger is out there.

It's bipartisan. It needs to be channeled in a fruitful way into reforming. And if necessarily, reconstructing parts of our system, economic and political, right? I don't dispute the analysis that American politics is broken, that the economy doesn't work for everyone, et cetera, et cetera. I just think Bernie Sanders populism,

which is actually for the people, genuine, honest, actually for the little guy, rather than the false fake populism of Donald Trump. So in that sense, I'm with you. But here's where I differ from you all, from your friends. The problem is that we as a media, especially media, have failed in outlining what is at stake and what is going on. So I, of course, look, I interview people for a living, Chris, as do you.

You've seen me do interviews. I'm aggressive. I'm combative. I challenge people's lives. I'm not disputing the politicians lie, politicians bullshit, politicians, right? Of course not. That's literally what I do for a living. But that's not the same as saying they're all the same.

No, no one is like Donald Trump. No party is like the modern Republican Party. I'm anti-conservatives, Chris, but the Conservative Party in the UK and the Conservative Party in France and the Conservative Party in Germany is not like the Republican party in the US. I can deal with them. They're in a reality based universe. I can have a good faith conversation with them. Not these guys, not the MTGs, not the Mike Johnson.

No. So we need to be realistic about the fact that they're not all the same. If people say they're all the same, that's great. But we need to be able to inform and educate them as journalists to say, well, actually no. What Donald Trump did in the pandemic was unique to Donald Trump. Most Western leaders did not do, including conservative leaders,

did not do what Donald Trump did on the pandemic or on vaccines or whatever else it is. And I think that's where, and by the way, the whole virus stuff, I heard that in 2016, and I gave it the benefit of the doubt. I can understand why someone votes for Trump in 2016. I don't agree with it, but Hillary's on the ballot, establishment, hawk, blah, blah, blah, the Clinton name.

Trump, he's gonna shake things up, burn it all down. I get that in 2016, but you don't get to play that card in 2024, Chris, because we've seen him. He came into office, he gave tax cuts to millionaires, he deregulated for billionaires, he did not do anything to help the little guy. He screwed the healthcare system. He screwed over the coal miners.

Sorry, you don't get to then come back and tell me this guy is the anti-establishment blue collar billionaire. Then you're just in a cult because we saw four years of Trump and he didn't do shit for the little guy. But they say the economy was better. The border was not a nightmare. That's not true. I mean, I can't deal with people's delusions. That's not true to say the economy was better. The border was not a nightmare. I can't deal with people's delusions. It's not true to say the economy is better.

Well, it depends on who and by what metrics you're looking at. I'm looking at the metric of four years. You know what the Trump people do? They stop in 2019. How convenient. Well, they stop with the pandemic because everything became artificial in terms of how much money was being forced in. Let's not forget the pandemic. I don't disagree.

Although it seems like the left owns the pandemic. We did worse for the countries. I don't disagree, although it seems like the left owns the pandemic. Again, for whatever messaging reasons. Yeah, I agree. They screwed up. I get blamed for the pandemic more than Donald Trump does. I'm sure you get brother comments. Which is, and some of it is because of Andrew,

but oddly I own a lot of it individually, which is also always interesting to me. But unlike Mr. Trump, I have a genetic predisposition towards the no fucks to give. One of the reasons people will sometimes say, if they don't know me, if they know me, no one says this. No one who knows me has ever suggested I get involved in public service in any way,

anyone who knows me. But if they don't know me, they'll say, why don't you think about it? I have the opposite of what you need to be in public service, which Donald Trump has too much of, which is the desperation to please these people, have them love you and do things that are solicitous of that.

However. I mean, he's one of the most loathed men in modern human history. It is interesting, but it depends on by who, because, you know, boy, we get wrong. By the majority of human beings. Not we, because, you know, I don't lump you in with me, but in 2016, one of the things I definitely got wrong, although, although I believe that he was going to win long before others and won many one dollar bets.

I got it wrong. I thought Henry would win. I was wrong on 2016. But what I got wrong was how persuasive and powerful celebrity is in America. I didn't give it enough credit. Yes. Anyway, they look at this. They say policy for policy. I'm going with Trump. Not because of Trump. Despite Trump. Chris, please. Come on. Nobody looks at policies.

Trump voters are not sitting and comparing policies. They are owning the libs. This is pure culture war. That is true. I'll give it to you as an and. And inflation wasn't the same at the grocery store and the gas pump. And that's the most important economic metric. People felt that field test of how did you feel four years ago versus now.

They felt like the economy was better. Four years ago today, we had an economy that was in the ditch. We had hundreds of thousands of people dying from COVID. Right. Whole four years ago, my former colleague, Chris Hayes, did a very good segment on this that you can't do the four years ago because it puts you in the middle of the worst year in modern American history. That's true.

So they pretend that Trump was only president from 2017 to 2019. And they give them a pass for the pandemic. Even in 2017 to 2019, the unemployment rates lower now. Most of the economic indicators are better now. Those are just objective facts. I don't even try and get bogged down too much in the economy. Chris, I disagree with a lot of my fellow leftists who talk about the importance of the economy. I actually think the economy is not that important. If you look at the polling again and again, it's informed by partisanship. Christoph, you hate the two party game.

You look, I did this on my old show. You look at 2021, you look at the polling from when Biden becomes, there's literally a line graph. Overnight Democrats say the economy is amazing and Republicans say it's bad. Overnight, it's binary. It's like that. It's who's in the overall. At 100%. So forgive me when I kind of have very skeptical position on people's

polling. I'm fine with you about that, but you still got to take people where you find them, right? Which is as obvious. Kind of. I don't have to accept people's delusions. If people tell me Biden didn't win the election, I don't understand. No, no, no. I'm saying in terms of understanding their motivations, you have to take them where you find them. I'm not sure everyone is honest about their motivations, to be honest. I think a lot of what drives Trump support is bigotry, is racial resentment, is cultural resentment.

You mentioned it earlier, white people are being replaced. This country doesn't look like what it used to look like. It's MAGA, the whole concept of make America great again. Great when? Yeah, listen, I'm totally with you. And I remember Trump getting stumped on that question So I give you that Hey, how did your doctor's appointment go by the way, did you ask about Rebelsis actually I'm seeing my doctor later today

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because I had tired of the border. I am many years into covering it. I can't tell you how many times I have treated this as if it were new. I can't tell you how many coyotes I've been with. Sometimes I feel like, you know, hey, I better be careful about how much I say I know about the border.

I may become, you know, arrested at some point for having too much knowledge of felonies. But the border has now become the top ticket item. And it happens to be the weakest issue for the Biden administration. Agreed. And it could beat him. And I think if it beats him,

it's kind of his own fault on a policy level. What do you think of that? It's tricky because I come at it If it beats him, it's kind of his own fault on a policy level. What do you think of that? It's tricky because I come at it from a different perspective, which is I also think Biden's done badly on the border, but I think he's done badly on the border because he's appeased the right too much, which I know you won't agree with that. Right wingers will laugh at me for saying that. But even that border bill, the Senate bill, I think is a ridiculous bill.

It doesn't even have the DREAMers in it. It also gives crazy powers to a Secretary of Homeland Security, Stephen Miller. I don't want to grant powers to an executive branch that may be run by Trump, Bannon, and Miller in a few months' time. So I just think that whole thing was wrong. Look, for me, immigration stuff, it's unfashionable. It's not as sexy as it's pointed out, but it happens to be true, which is it is not just a demand

issue. It's a supply issue until you deal with what's happening in those countries in the triangle on the ground. This will never be resolved. You think you can build your way out of this, build a border out of it? It's absurd. But they say it was better under Trump and now I don't feel safe. Just not true again.

Okay, so again, not true. In the last year of Trump's presidency, again, they only say that, Chris, because they start at the clock in 2019. Go and look at 2020's figures. It was a constant upward direction and people coming across the border. And that's with Section 28. That's with all the COVID rulings. So just not true.

Have a look at the numbers. It's just a lie to say it was better under Trump in 2020. There was less. Unless President Trump was not president in 2020, that is a lie. There was absolutely what we saw, what I characterize, and I always say this and yet people always say that I'm misquoting Trump. I'm not saying he said these words. I'm saying this was his characterization.

The Brown Menace. When they started to come up in the spring under a lot of enticements from a lot of big employers in the United States, that's the year that you're talking about where we saw numbers spike. He put a number of, and I gotta give him credit because it was on his watch, even though I really don't even believe

he knew this was going on because I knew the people who designed the policies and they were not Trump people and they barely even talked to him even though they were in the administration. The home country agreements he did, the symbolism of Remain in Mexico, not the practical effect, only 74,000 people went through Remain in Mexico.

Also led to a lot of rape and sexual violence, which Republicans claim to care about. Yes, but selectivelyively they care about it. Those things and the Biden taking all of them out in one big sweep when he came in, definitely led to a spike assisted by a messaging change. There's no question that people believe that Democrats slash Joe Biden don't hate them the way Trump did. And when people are making the decision of the most dangerous decision of their lives to leave everything they know and trust terrible people

and to do terrible things for a long time, they think about the chances of success. So I believe that if that border becomes the defining issue, you lose on the left. Which is why, which is why I don't think they should allow it to become the defining issue. That doesn't mean you try and propose draconian policies. I come from a different school of thought.

As I said, I wrote a book about rhetoric. I don't believe that you take your opponent's most salient issue and lean into it. I think that's madness. Well, what do Republicans do? Do Republicans talk about healthcare all the time? Do you think Republicans sit around and go, wow, people really hate our healthcare policies.

We should come up with healthcare policies and talk about it all the time. They don't. They just avoid talking about it, Chris. When was the last time a Republican told you their health care plan? Because they know they've got nothing and they know the Democrats' need on health care always have. I think it's madness for Joe Biden and the Democrats, if they do this over the next six months, to carry on talking about the border and say, we'll be tough on the border.

And the Labour Party did this in the UK. My position is people don't vote for fascism like they vote for fascism. They don't vote for the guy who meets you on the middle on border security. They meet go for the guy who goes all out. Right. Like there's no value to offering the light version of the Republican plan. You either do your own thing and stand up for it, or you just don't talk about it. And that sounds cynical, but that's the reality of politics.

There are multiple issues that voters care about, and it's up to you as a politician to choose what you want to focus on. I think Democrats should lead into democracy and the threat to democracy, abortion rights, healthcare. These are, and of course Trump's awfulness. I'm an ad-hom guy. I think Biden should have been unloading on Trump long ago. He's come out very late out of the gate on Trump.

They should have already gone after Trump. He's also not good at his best and he's not at his best of making that kind of case. And he is a flawed individual, not on the scale of Trump. Let me be very clear. I think Joe Biden is a fundamentally good man in my dealings. I feel the opposite about Trump. And while everybody's got to be open to voting for whoever's on the tickets in their own interest. I feel the opposite about Trump. And while everybody's gotta be open to voting for whoever's on the tickets in their own interest. Agreed. I don't tell you who to vote for. As I've said before, if Trump is depending on my vote

to get into the White House, he's in a lot of trouble. Now the foreign issue that they'll point to, which is very important to you, and I wanna discuss it, because I want the audience to understand where you're coming from on these issues and how thoughtful you are on them. Whether they agree or not, MEDE is thoughtful and we need that.

We need critical thinking. You don't have to agree, but you can't say you just made the shit up. So right now the state of play in the Middle East is that everybody knows it's an untenable situation. Even within Israel, yes, there's a lot of resentment. Yes, there's outrage and a lot of other negative motivators, but nobody wants to see the continuation of large-scale destruction of

innocence. And that's what's going on. But how do you stop it? What is the mechanism that gives Israel the assurances it needs to stop going after Hamas? And does that have to start with the return of the hostages? That's the only part I don't understand in the analysis is why doesn't it always begin with Hamas? Give back the hostages, give back the hostages. Then you have a modicum of leverage. You have to give back the hostages. But what have a modicum of leverage. You have to give back the hostages. But what is your take about how you get to better,

or just less bad? Big questions, no easy answers. I would question your premise that no one wants to see death and destruction in Gaza. Actually, plenty of Israelis do, sadly, and that's what Israeli society has moved. It shifted a lot to the far right in recent years. Well, plenty of extreme Muslims,

including some of the leaders of Hamas, want to see it also, because it works very well for their cause. Agreed. There are extremists on both sides who want to see death and destruction. The extremists on the Palestinian side are not funded by the United States and protected in the UN Security Council by the United States. So there's a big difference between the government of Israel and Hamas. I always enjoy this idea that Hamas is this ISIS-like terrorist group, but anytime

you say anything about Israel, Hamas has brought forward some kind of benchmark. Why is Hamas the benchmark? I judge Israel as a government, as a democracy, as a member of the United Nations. So I hold it to that standard, not the Hamas standard. Look, this is the question since October 7th. Well, what is Israel supposed to do? How are you supposed to get security? Hamas will attack again.

There is no short-term answer, Chris. I can't tell you that if there's a ceasefire tomorrow, there will never be another attack on Israel because I don't know what's going to happen in the long term. We can talk in short-termism, but this is a conflict that has gone on for 75 years or more. It's gone on. The occupation since 1967 has been going on for 57 years. And this doesn't get resolved overnight. But the reality is that you cannot continually indefinitely hold Palestinians in occupation and say, well, we need security. The smart people in the Middle East on both sides know that the two go hand in hand. For security, you need freedom. For freedom, you need security.

We all accept that. The reality is, though, that there are a bunch of people in the Israeli government and Israeli society who have never been interested in allowing Palestinians to be free. And look, it sounds cliched, it sounds naive, it sounds utopian, but actually some of Israel's top security people, Chris, say, unless we sort out the freedom situation, Israel won't be secure. They say it. One quote for you, I'm sorry, one quote for you.

They're just not in Bibi's administration. Unfortunately, no, because they're, I've got lots of choice words for them. Shlomo Brom, former Israeli general, big strategist in the Israeli military, he said after October 7, it is absurd to hope that Israel can indefinitely contain, with its military might, millions of Palestinians who claim the right

to self-determination and a free normal life. Eventually the oppressed will rise against their oppressor. Now, if I said that, you'd say you're a Hamas apologist. I'm not saying it. Shlomo Brown says, eventually the oppressed will rise against the oppressor. Until that dynamic exists, there is no hope in the middle. I totally agree. Don't talk to me about two states and borders and terrorism.

None of it matters until we deal with that. Although it's hard to even get to the that when really, to be fair, Bibi Netanyahu doesn't believe in a two-state solution. No, he doesn't. And by the way, right now, even let's take a step back. You said about hostages, of course the hostages should be freed. They should never have been taken as a war crime to take hostages. And I've seen the people who've been released, and a lot of those hostages' family, by the

way, Chris, they hate the Netanyahu administration because they want to ceasefire and a negotiated release. But put that to one side, we are now in mid-March, late March. This is not October or November. We're in a situation now, Chris, we're according to Tony Blinken, the Secretary of State, everyone in Gaza, everyone, 100% of the population is now food insecure. Yes. Right? Half a million people at least are in a famine situation. We're now being told by the experts that it's not an impending famine, the famine's begun. Yes.

Because the indicators are all lacking. I've heard the same things. So we right now, we, I'm sorry, with the greatest respect to Israel's security needs, and I want those hostages to be released, but right now, millions of people are at risk of starving to death, and we are paying for it. We are complicit in it. For me, that's the only issue that That's what history will judge us on. In years to come, history will look back on this moment

and see where people stood on the mass starvation of an innocent civilian population that had nothing to do with our mass. And it's the easiest part to fix. And I've talked about this a lot within the administration. And it doesn't even require a ceasefire. But I now remember this, you're too young, Mehdi. But I remember when we, after post 9-11,

and all of us became, you know, not all of us, Mehdi. But I remember when we, after post 9-11 and all of us became, you know, not all of us, people became embeds and went over and started covering what was happening. It was, I had to be educated. And all right, so you're going in there, I'm watching all the rules change in real time because we had these different rules of engagement

that weren't for urban warfare and where everybody is weaponized. So I'm watching all the rules change. But every time they would blow up a community, right? And they were blowing up more and more communities as we were getting harder and harder fighters, right? Because we weren't ready for that. There was so much aid, Medi. There was aid all over the place, constantly. And some of the guys would say, you'd hear like, boy, we're feeding these guys a lot

so they can have the energy to try to kill us tomorrow. But it wasn't ever questioned. And that was the big mistake from the American perspective in the Middle East right now is that the aid should have always been maximized. And it was like- But Biden allows Bibi to walk all over him. Yeah, I agree. I agree that there's a fundamental problem there.

You say the border will cost Democrats the election? My fear is that Bibi will cost Democrats the election because every leftist I know, every Muslim and Arab- But how can they vote for Trump? And some of them are going to vote for Trump. 20% of Muslims voted for Trump in 2020. It's crazy, but they did. I don't agree with them, but they did. And more of them will vote for him next this time. For precisely the reason you said earlier. Send him in to burn it all down.

That's what I hear from a lot of people on the left and Muslims. Well, let's see what happens during the election Trump lets slip that he would blow up a mosque. My worry is the young voters, the black voters, the social justice voters, the leftists, and the Muslims and Arab Americans, they don't show up because of BB, because of the humiliation of the United

States on the international level. We are dropping aid while Israel drops our bombs, and then we're building a pier that's going to take months to set up because we can't drive our trucks across the border. Not because Russia is blocking us, or North Korea is blocking us, or Iran is blocking us. Our ally, the guys we give $3. half billion dollars a year to are blocking us. That's an embarrassment for the world. The aid doesn't work.

But I still believe that just in basic, just basic logic, they have to be forced to give the hostages back. It changes the negotiation. Who is the they, Chris? That is Hamas. You and I don't control Hamas. The children starving to death in Gaza don't control Hamas. I'm sorry, if you talk about it in terms of Hamas, that is a definition of collective

punishment, right? The people in Gaza cannot be held responsible for the crimes of Hamas. Just as the people of Israel cannot be held responsible for the crimes of Danielle. We're going down a very dangerous road if that is how we establish all conflicts. Because what I hear Israelis say, well, it's the fault of Hamas, that's exactly what Palestinians say when Israelis are killed. It's the fault of the government, they are oppressing us. I don't think you should ever punish civilians, ever, on either side,

anywhere in the world. Unfortunately, it happens every time there is a war. Mehdi Hassan will give you food for your brain. You may not like the diet, but here's what we know for sure these days. No matter where you see yourself on the ideological spectrum, you need not just perception, you need perspective. And perception is just like what you feel

you come up with yourself. Perspective is ideas that inform your own. Mehdi Hassan is one of the best at that. Again, it's not about agreeing, although it's hard to disagree with a lot of what he says. It's about why you believe what you believe. Mehdi Hassan, Zateo, having critical looks at investigating, seeking for knowledge and perspective,

I wish you every good fortune, and I think you deserve it. Chris, that means a lot. I appreciate your support. I appreciate the conversation. I think we agreed more than we disagreed, which is always a good thing. And I'm going to do a shameless plug and say zeteo.com, z-e-t-e-o.com. Check it out. Subscribe.

The full launch is next month. Thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I hope you have me back. I would love to have you on my platforms on a regular basis. My audience can only benefit. And I'm easy pickings. Plenty I do is worthy of criticism. on a regular basis, my audience can only benefit. And I'm easy pickings, plenty I do is worthy of criticism. Mehdi Hassan, all great things for you to come,

to be continued. Cheers, Chris. Smart, smart matters. Too smart by half? Well, that takes us to a central proposition about the left. Do you win the argument, but lose the election or the overall persuasion? You don't have to agree with Mehdi Hassan to respect his intellect and where he's coming from. It's authentic. Okay, yes, he's a debate champion,

but he's not just doing this for academic purposes. It's not just an exercise. He believes for academic purposes. It's not just an exercise. He believes too. So you can check out Zateo and see if Mehdi Hassan adds to the nutritional value of your intellectual diet. I know I will be there for Zateo, even though I don't agree all the time. It's about understanding what else is out there

in the marketplace of ideas. More ideas, not less. Thank you for subscribing, following, understanding what else is out there in the marketplace of ideas. More ideas, not less. Thank you for subscribing, following here and at the Substack, the Chris Cuomo project.substack.com and I'll see you at News Nation, 8P and 11P every weekday night. Good to have you there. Good to have you here. The challenges are real.

So let's get after it.