The Chris Cuomo Project - Michael Eric Dyson & Gary Vee on Jesse Jackson and Algorithms

Episode Date: February 22, 2026

Chris Cuomo brings together key moments from this week’s Cuomo Mornings on SiriusXM, featuring conversations with Michael Eric Dyson and Gary Vaynerchuk as the country reflects on the life and legacy of Reverend Jesse Jackson. Dyson shares personal stories from decades alongside Jackson, tracing his rise after Dr. King’s assassination, the Rainbow Coalition campaigns of 1984 and 1988, and the relentless activism that defined his final years. The discussion turns to who carries that mantle now and what leadership looks like in a moment many Americans feel is lacking it. Gary Vee joins to talk about the algorithm-driven culture shaping politics, outrage, and self-worth — and why accountability, mindset, and economic opportunity may matter more than partisan warfare. Cuomo pushes back on whether social media is neutral, how political primaries reward extremes, and whether Americans still know how to disagree without dehumanizing one another. Calls from listeners also take the conversation into the Epstein controversy, transparency, media credibility, and the danger of conspiracy culture replacing serious inquiry. Join The Chris Cuomo Project on YouTube for ad-free episodes, early releases, exclusive access to Chris, and more: https://www.youtube.com/@chriscuomo/join Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Get 15% off OneSkin with code cuomo at https://www.oneskin.co/cuomo. #oneskinpod Head to https://factormeals.com/cuomo50off and use code cuomo50off to get 50 percent off and free breakfast for a year. Eat like a pro this month with Factor. Reverse hair loss with iRestore and get exclusive savings on the iRestore Elite—use code CUOMO at https://irestore.com/cuomo! #irestorepod Go to https://Leesa.com for 30% off mattresses PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code CUOMO, exclusive for my listeners. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Michael Eric Dyson, professor, pastor, reverend, historian, civil rights activist, and of course, social critic par excellence, and a friend of mine. Michael Eric Dyson, thank you for joining us, especially on short notice so early in the morning. And I am, I mourn the passing of the reverend who mattered to me personally and mattered to all of us from a civic and professional perspective. What do you want people to know about who he was and what he meant? Well, thanks for having me, my dear friend. And he certainly was a man for his times, but a man for all ages. A man who, as you've already indicated, was not only beneficial to black America. And in the aftermath of Dr. King's death in 1968, when he was in his late 20s, around

27 years old, and he emerged as the heir apparent to Reverend King, and not without controversy because surrounding him were Andy Young and Ralph Abernathy and the like. Jesse Jackson had only recently joined that circle after the Selma March, where he met Dr. King for the first time, and then quickly ascended as head of Operation Breadbasket, which was their economic arm up north, attempting to integrate businesses so that black people could have a fair shake in terms of financial arrangements. So Jesse Jackson became the heir apparent and then emerged in the aftermath of that. But when he ran in 1984 and 88 for the presidency, he proved that he was part of what he

borrowed from some of the Black Panthers in Chicago, part of the Rainbow Coalition. that it was for poor white working class people who were white as well. I was with him in London in the immediate aftermath of Nelson Mandela's release from prison. And we sat in the house of Oliver Tombo in a flat in London with Mrs. Mandela and Winnie Mandela and Nelson Mandela and Reverend Jackson right there. I saw him on that international stage, and I cannot tell you how many noted politicals. from around the world, the Australian ambassador, expressing profound admiration for Jesse Jackson. And then when we traveled the length and breadth of this country, going to San Antonio, off the radar, by the way, not the media following him, those who thought he was merely a media hound

missed his profound commitment to ordinary people. And he would call me sometimes in the morning far earlier than this. and he would say this is your brother and then he would run right into the issues he wanted to talk about this man you weren't going to get up earlier than him you weren't going to go to bed later than him he was committed in a most profound way to the betterment of not only his people

but this nation at large big strong man big voice you know we we try to mitigate these qualities only when we don't have them And the presentation mattered, the voice, the boss so profundo, the rhyming, the cadence, the reach of history, the righteous indignation. And such an amazing battery life. I want to say, Michael, you'll know, you'll remember better than I, as always. But I really want to, it certainly was after 2020.

I remember when I was going at it with Joe Manchin about the filibuster, which I was probably wrong about, by the way. We probably do need the Senate filibuster because these people are crazy and the simple majority will just take us in all kinds of wacky directions. But Jesse disagreed. My father disagreed, by the way. And Jesse, I think it was after 2020. He got arrested, I remember, for protesting to get rid of the filibuster so you could pass the last iteration of the Fair Voting Act. Oh, yeah. I mean, brother, to his dying day, I went to see him a few weeks ago when he left the private care facility to return home. And, you know, he's watching CNN, MS now. He's listening to you. He admired you. He admired your father. So it takes one to no one, the high eloquence, the beautiful poetic resonance. of words, the use of words as warehouses of divine inspiration or earthly struggle. And he sat there and listened and was motivated to the very end by politics, by the world around him, by trying to make things better. And getting arrested, of course, that's what he did.

He didn't mind. Even into his late 70s and early 80s, he was determined never to be a relic or an ornament. And when I went to preach in Chicago a couple of years ago, he was right there in his wheelchair on the front row. He was a man who only knew one speed that is full ahead with full force trying to do the best he could, not for himself, but for the people he loved and for the nation that he served so valiantly. I wonder what this meant. I forget which convention it was, but it was probably the last one he attended. I remember he was being escorted around and, you know, diminished capacity. In Chicago, but yeah, but with great men, you take what you can get.

You know what I mean? You squeeze every drop out of them because it doesn't matter if they're not at the height of their powers anymore. They're still far more powerful than you when we need their agency, right? And I remember him saying, uh, in that, you know, halted speech, uh, don't be precious. He said to me, don't. Don't don't be precious. You're not there for them, he said. And he took his hand, he put it big hands,

put his hand on the side of my head, kind of clapped the side of my head a couple of times, just like my father would. And it was so important to him that you fought what he saw as the good fight. He was not a party person. He was not a partisan. He was not about calculation and advantage.

He was, what would they call these days, a real one. And what do we do with the loss? Who is a real one to turn to a la, you know, Joe DiMaggio, lonely country turns its eyes to you? What do we do without a Jesse Jackson? I mean, he was unique and powerful. He was, you know, brought the panoply of gifts to bear, as you've already. indicated the oratorical skill, the extraordinary good looks. I remember I was a professor of his son, Jesse Jr. in 1989, where I first met him in when I went over to his house to be

considered to be a writer for his book, which I eventually did win, though we did not publish the book. And he was remarkably strikingly handsome. It's hard for people to understand that at his height, what this man presented physically, just a gorgeous embodiment of tall masculinity, a black masculinity, of what might now be unpopular to say, a kind of virtuous masculinity that was beautiful and redemptive. And he used it for the advantage of, you know, his community to be certain. But here was a man who was relentlessly dedicated to doing the right thing. figuring out what could occur. His greatest, I think, if you will, the person who will,

let me put it this way, the person who will inherit his legacy is certainly Reverend Al Sharpton. The Reverend Al Sharpton has been with Jesse Jackson since he was, what, 12, 13 years old. He has been in the circle. He has been around him. He has learned from him. He has had conflict with him, but mostly love and celebratory engagements. And there's no question that the man to whom that mantle is passed, the man who receives that baton is a man already established. And really, the significant figure who has inherited what Reverend Jesse Jackson has been about is Reverend Al Sharpton. So it will be telling and it will be revealing to see the nation then turn its eyes,

as you brilliantly quoted that, Joe DiMaggio, or as W.H. Auden said, when Dag Hammershow passed off the scene, a great light has gone out. And that great light has gone out and now rests, I think, upon the shoulders of Reverend Jesse Jackson, of Reverend Al Sharpton, who has transformed himself over these many years and into a leader that, you know, Barack Obama looked forward to and felt that his advice was critical and essential. So I think Reverend Al Sharpton is the man who will carry that medal forward. Michael Eric Dyson, thank you very much for your perspective, your acuity, as always. And on one level, this has become a more familiar feeling for me.

I'm just sad because certain things, you know, you'll have another. You'll have more, but you'll never have the same. And I'm just happy I knew him. and got to learn from them. And, you know, not always easy lessons, but I've all, all respect for the entire family and the legacy. And it's an important time to talk about it, especially with where we are with the lack of leadership in this country right now.

Boy, imagine if it were 1980 right now. If that Jesse Jackson came on to the stage, we would have a much shorter conversation about what's going to happen in 2028 on the Democratic side, that's for sure. All right, brother, I'm sorry for your loss. Please extend my condolences to the family. Anything I can do, I'm a call away.

All right, thank you, my friend. God bless. You like that taste of Cuomo mornings? That's my new show on Sirius XM, the POTUS channel, 124. Every weekday morning, 7 to 9, Eastern. But if you want to just join here on my YouTube, channel, you'll be getting a steady diet of selects. And depending on your subscription level,

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You know, there's a saying in America. It's hard to succeed when you have a funny name. Is that a real saying in America? No, but I just made it one. You know who Gary. V is and you know why he goes by V because nobody can say Vannichuk, Vaynerchuk, Vaynerchuk, you go online and you look up this guy's name and how to say it and it's like a commercial for hooked on phonics but Gary Vee has

succeeded in a way that is not only spectacular but to me makes so much sense of what we need more of a guy who humped it as a young person found a way to be an entrepreneur and remember what that means French word for someone who takes risk, who goes and gets out over the skis and takes risk that maybe doesn't even make sense to a lot of people and then succeeds. And Gary V has taught us about brand, about extension of self, and about what it is that keeps us from succeeding, which I think we need so much more of. And he is one of the few where I can say, this guy's success is deserved and I hope it multiplies.

and he joins us now. Gary Vee, my brother, thank you for calling in. Always, my friend. Great to be with you. So when you look around at how social media is now dominating our existence, it literally gives us the list every day of what is trending, what we must focus on, what do you see as the plus minus for people in terms of this being a tool that helps versus hurts? You know, I see it as an exposure. I mean, I think it's, you know, net net,

you know, where the country and the world's sentiment is, it's probably neutral. It should be remarkably net positive. But the reality is that we spoke about this recently. The algorithm responds to what you're consuming, what you're searching, what you're engaging with. So I view it as a blank vessel that is an exposure of your mindset at the moment. And ultimately, that becomes the mirror, not a net positive or not. negative. And how, what's the adjustment?

The adjustment is really taking a step back and leading into accountability. I think if you really look at what's going on right now, we've become incredibly good at pointing fingers instead of thumbs. And so, you know, we're very, you know, you think about the nature of this show. I think you do such a good job at this, but I know what's happening on the other side of the audio. People are jumping to, it's this person's fault, it's that person's fall, instead of what can I do about it? So my favorite thing to do with friends and my audiences tell them to go to Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or any platform they use and search happiness, joy or hobbies,

right, cooking, skiing, and following 10 accounts, liking 50 pieces of content and then opening up their phone the next day and asking them, has their algorithm changed? It's a real eye opener for many. And I think it's a small indication of what's really happening in the mindset. And I think for me, entrepreneur, it was easy in the 80s and 90s when this was not popular to not see college the same way everyone saw it. I went to appease my parents. But I really, I, everything's been very common sense and clear for me, my whole life. I think we connect on that, my friend. And this is just another example of people not able to see the level above. what the conversation is.

Well, I wish that I could echo Gary V's mentality. I often see myself as someone who sees the sword of Damocles as a joke compared to what I'm worried about falling on my head at all times. But I do think there's such a wisdom

in what you're talking about, but I do have one point of pushback. So Gary V comes on my show at News Nation and hits me with this, you're the problem with your algorithm then, right? And totally bloodies my nose. And winds up, I wind up following a couple of people who are doing beautiful things. I'll even tell you who they are.

Because I only followed in my main account. I only follow my kids, which I don't know why they wanted that because people just shit all over them. But the Victor, Victor, Victor, the good boss, Victor Olivera, okay, who has a good following, like a million and a half people, but for amazing reason. He goes out into the streets and videos him trying to get people clean. and taking on advocacy for their situations. Love it. Love him. So I do what Gary V says with the algorithm.

But now I have a point of pushback, brother. You are correct until we get into the category of politics. Because if people search the political issues of the day, which they should, the algorithm poisons them with outrage and provocativeness, not perspective and good information. and good information. If that, we don't control. Yeah, but again, you know, listen, you're going to know this better than me,

but I would ask you, you know, and it's tougher than ever because you can't win a primary and that's probably something we should talk about as a nation. But, you know, who are the purple politicians? Do they exist? I ask you, Chris, I'm flipping the switch.

Like in the political climate where you can't win a primary, unless you're to the edges of your party, you know, who are the voices of purple? You know, we're very far away away from Teddy Kennedy and Dole, you know, acting like actual politicians. But again, if you consume and follow those individuals and engage with their content, it will go there.

And again, let me tell you how I do it. I'm obsessed with being up to the moment of what's going on in the world. I don't put my head in the ground, but I use different apps to consume my news. versus what I'm consuming in social. And so there's also the ability, again, to say, hey, I'm going to use social for information, for escapism, for joy, for the ability to enjoy that scrolling instead of it becoming something that brings anxiety. And I'm going to consume my information from these four or five news apps,

something to think about. What do you believe comes along with your success in terms of design, I won't say responsibility because you don't have one, but desire to be more involved in the conversation in America, let's call it. I think that I've done it pretty successfully for the last 10 years. My desire is pretty deep. I just know that 50% of people are on tilt on issues depending on what the issue is. So what I've decided over the last decade is I'm not going to do what I think everyone's doing,

which is spending all their time on the sink. I'm going to spend all my time on the well. Oh, explain that to me. God, damn, it's a piece of genius. So that's what I'm talking about. Not on the sink on the well. Look at Dusty right now. Dusty's like,

Dusty doesn't understand what you're. Justy's very smart. Don't razzling. I think that. He's right, though. I have no idea what that meant. So I'm hanging on your every word. I need to know because I will use it as my own.

Here we go. So I think a lot of people are addressing the now. But if I can get. everyone to follow me and pay attention. I can systematically over time put out enough content that talks about accountability and responsibility, self-love and opportunity, because it's enormous, Chris, right?

You know, Charles Barkley once said, America doesn't have a black and white problem as a rich and poor problem. I've been very effective over the last 20 years of helping people get happier and get wealthier by putting out unlimited amounts of content on both. So for me, I know that if I go overly political, and by the way, I'm sure you know exactly what I'm about to say, I sometimes change my mind on political views. And we've completely,

like the truth is, and I'll be very honest about this, I just don't trust America in the group of it all, like the bulk of it all, to be able to have the kind of normal conversations that I was accustomed to watching be had in the 80s and not. 90s, we've just gone to a totally different place. And by the way, that's okay. I'm not crying. There's no crying in baseball. I've just focused on if I can get people to work on their actual self-esteem, if I can get people to actually like themselves, if I can actually show people how to make money at night after their nine to five, because I know so many people don't have the ability to quit their nine-to-five. Well, if I make you happier, you're not going to have the

capacity to hate someone because of their race, gender, skin color, or even how much money they make. So there you go. If you could wave a magic wand and change things in society, no world peace, no live forever, no cancer goes away, what would you change? I would do something very unique. You ready for this one? I've thought about this. Yes. I would create a magic spell that took the way people feel about dogs and make it flip into them feeling that way about their fellow human. So you would make people feel about people the way they do about dogs? That's right. I think that humans are default in love with dogs and on default are not in love with people. I walk around Earth. Today I will walk to work and I will literally look at dozens

of people's faces and by default I will like them. Gary Vee. Thank you so much for being a part of our family. And I am happy to echo your message because I think you're part of what makes us better in this society. We need more, Gary V, not less. Can't wait from the own the Jets. Brother, you go about your day. I'll talk about you in your absence.

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What is your name and where are you? My name is Susan and I'm in Lansing, Michigan. How you doing? Been there. What do you got? I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. You know, I just want you to stop saying. young women. When you talk about this subject, they're minors, they're children.

And when you call these... They're both, right? Well, we don't know. Well, then... Well, then... Well, then... Well, then... And let me tell you why I'm cutting you off, Susan.

You're playing a PC point right now that pisses me off, and I'll tell you why. I do not deserve your criticism for not being respectful of the situation and who's involved. Okay? I do not deserve that. It is unwarranted. And the reason I say it the way I say it has purpose behind it. And I'll explain it. I'm not mansplaining.

I'm explaining, okay? If you rape a 24-year-old woman, it is a crime. If you take a 22, 24-year-old woman and travel them under false pretenses and put them in situations where they feel compelled to act, it is wrong, if not illegal. It is wrong. If it's not the man act, it's just wrong. If they're 17, it's definitely illegal and absolutely wrong. If they're 14, it's definitely illegal and absolutely wrong.

But all of it is wrong. So even if you take it at what we know the most about, what do we know the most about, young women, young women, above the age of consent, who were brought in and abused, that's what we know about the most. That matters. You're saying, you're saying,

you're mitigating this, you're making it look like it's not as bad because you're not talking about it being children. You're wrong. I say it's children all the time. But it is not what we know the most about. That's why someone like Megan Kelly, who I guarantee you don't call and blow her up, says, you know, he's not really a pedophile. Why is he not a pedophile? Well, because the kids were a little too old. Well, that's a bullshit distinction, right? To me, anything under 30, you could argue, is two years. young. But look, I don't want, I don't want to judge. Or you do whatever you want as long as it's legal. But that's why I say it the way I say it, not to minimize it, but to cast as big a net as I can of how wrong this was. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. And I apologize for coming on so strong in my criticism. But I think the net needs to include words that are indicative of what really happened, which was young girls under the age of 18 as well. So I'm with you except he was never convicted of that. So he was convicted of having sex with a woman who was almost 18, which he said was a setup, which he said he didn't know. That was the deal he was given in 2008. In 2018, 19, he was charged with what you and I are talking about right now, which is, you know, coercion, abuse, underage. you know, all kinds of stuff. And we never had that trial.

People should go back and read that indictment, though, and understand why we should care about this. But I'm with you, by the way. I am 100% with you on this. And I want as broad a net as possible. And that's why I don't want to chase these men and women away and just cancel them as if that's satisfying. So somebody's worth a gazillion dollars

and they step down from Hyatt. Who gives you shit? I want to know what they knew. that's got to be the bar speaking of bar let's go to barb in michigan good morning chris just a couple of things first of all very sorry

about uh... Reverend Jackson that's a very sorry and praying for his family regarding Epstein when uh... Donald Trump was running for president and

I voted for him but when he was running for president he made all these claims we're going to open all the files. This is every speech. And now all of a sudden, I don't know how many months or maybe a year, he's been saying, no, no, you know, it's all a democratic hoax. I'm not blaming him, accusing him of anything. I don't know.

I'm just saying it looks suspect when all of a sudden you want to hide everything. Why? If you have nothing to hide, let it all come out. Yes. Here's the problem for Trump, okay? And I guess some of these people, he doesn't like what's in there about them because while it's not a crime,

it may destroy their reputation. Now, by the way, I respect that. I respect that distinction. It is not the place of the Department of Justice to tell America that Barb drank too much in 2003 and smacked a guy. That is not their place. They make criminal cases.

That's why I'm saying they shouldn't have been in control of this. If they are not going to make criminal cases, okay, you can like that, you can not like it. But that's their determination. Take it from them. And now we get to the next level of scrutiny, which isn't canceling, which isn't just ruining reputations. It's who knew that this guy was victimizing children, young women, and women, okay? Just to be all-inclusive. who knew, who protected him.

Why did it go on? That's what we're talking about. That is not a DOJ conversation. And I respect that. But it is a conversation. And you got to take it away from them and you got to give it to somebody else. And this president does not want to do that.

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Yes, ma'am. What do you got? You know, I'm kind of in shock that the Q&N people in our lives that we all labeled as crazies and, you know, that they are actually on to something that was real. What were they on to? I think the pedophile ring, I mean, obviously they exaggerated, but the fact that there was this pedophile. you know there's this group of powerful people that supposedly were running the country were we're actually we're actually trafficking children I mean I'm a shock that yeah Kathy hold on yes let's come out of shock for a second okay and go back into the world of the intellectually rigorous um look Q and on on is a bunch of psychos where they take a little bit

of something that could be true, mix it with an unknown, and create an impossible, okay? PizzaGate had nothing to do with Epstein. It was psycho babble about Hillary Clinton in the basement of a pizzeria, okay? That is just stupid talk. Epstein is a very different thing, and we still don't know that it was a trafficking ring. And we may never know what it really. really was. And I don't even understand why we're not going to know. I don't understand why the president had these files scrubbed in March. I don't know. My suspicion, his buddies were in there saying stupid things, and he is all over the place in here. You want to talk about going after people to hear Scott Jennings and these other people say, oh, the left, they better talk about Stacey Plaskett

and Bill Clinton. Oh, but you're going to ignore that the guy with the most allegations against him, with the most imprints, with the most references, is the president of the United States right now. And they just ignore it. And they let the president say, I've been completely exonerated. Really? Really, exonerated. Let's remember what that word means. It means that after a trial, okay, of fact and law,

you were found to be innocent, not guilty, not they couldn't make the case, but that you did nothing. How can that be true based on what we know? And again, I'm not here to judge the man as a man. I'm not. I don't give a shit how he lives his personal life. I think it's a distraction from us for us from what actually matters. But the idea that Q and on had it right.

Give me a break. DJ, VA. What do you got? You know, I understand the importance of this case because of what involves the time, you know, the time, stamp that's on it is for decades. But the only thing I cannot

ever get out of my head is how was that son of a bitch allowed to die? Imagine that he was alive today. Hold on. Hold on. I'm with you. I'm with you. But that doesn't mean he was murdered. That's what pisses me off about Bongino.

Okay? Maga got you guys on this. And there is a virtue and a vice in that. okay i ultimately come down on the side of it being of ice why because they never had any intention of delivering on it how do we know look at what we're living okay and they made shit up and then they got put into positions of power and they went quiet what pisses me off about cash and bonjino isn't just what they lied about to make fortunes for rumble and podcasts and sell little shirts with their names on it it's because then they got into positions of power and they didn't tell you what is in there. And now Bongino goes back to being the podfather and says, oh, they, Bill Clinton better

speak from. Fuck you. Why didn't you say anything when you were in a position of power? What the hell is going on here? Why do you keep rewarding people who lie to you? Why would you make this guy rich by now pretending to be a warrior for the truth in Epstein? Give me a break. How hypocritical? How pathetic is your allegiance to magic? that you just embarrass yourself this way. It's changed topics. It's making me sick. The best measure of where we are as a society is hearing from other members of that

society in conversation that has some cogency to it, some intelligence, not just, what do you think about Greenland? It's not about provocation, okay? It's about conversation. That's what we're getting after here on the YouTube channel for the Chris Cuomo Project, on News Nation, where I'm doing my cable show, and SiriusXM, Podish Channel 124 for Cuomo in the mornings. Bon Appetit!