The Chris Cuomo Project - Mosab Hassan Yousef

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Chris Cuomo speaks with Mosab Hassan Yousef (author, “Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal, Political Unthinkable Choices”), the son of a Hamas founder who became an Israeli spy and prevented dozens of suicide bombings, about the Israel-Palestine conflict, the mood in America, fighting terrorism, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Three words, the Green Prince. You're going to meet a man today who checks every box of understanding in the Middle East. Isn't that amazing? And equally amazing, he has been rejected by all three sides. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to The Chris Cuomo Project. A special guest for you today. I'm very happy to bring him to you.

Very important for your understanding of the Israeli Hamas conflict. Thank you for subscribing, following, checking us out on News Nation at 8 and 11 every weekday night. Okay. Now, grew up suffering in Palestine, as a leader in the terror organization. You then see that you are part of something that is making it worse for your people and you switch to the side of the enemy and spend 10 years living the spy life at the highest levels. And all these wacko things are going on around you. Then you decide to come clean about it. And you move to America and they think you're a terrorist.

And then you say, I'm done with all of this. And while you're floating somewhere in the southeastern ocean, of Southeast Asia that is, this happens and everybody seems to be getting it wrong in all directions. And you feel drawn to come back and speak the same truth that has had you demonized by all sides. Who else can say, you want to talk about Palestine? I lived there. Oh, you want to talk about Hamas? I was one of their main guys. Oh, you want to talk about Israel? I know their counterterror efforts because I was part of them for 10 years at the highest level. Oh, you want to understand what's happening in America? Oh, well, I've't tell you how many people are going to listen to what this guy's going to say here and say he doesn't know what he's talking about or that he's some bought off guy or an ideologue. Amazing.

The mix of ignorance and arrogance, but not you. You want perspective on truth. You want reality. You want experience. And that's what you're about to get. There is no one I have interviewed who has helped my understanding of the realities and the balancing of pain and purpose that we're seeing on all three sides. What are the three sides?

The Arab world, the Israelis, but also the American influence and the American exposure, Mossab Hassan Youssef. The place to start is how your head and your heart are processing the position you're in, where everyone wants to talk to you. the position you're in, where everyone wants to talk to you, everyone wants your perspective, and to hear a message that you have been saying for 20 years. How does this moment hit you?

You know, I've been saying this for a long time, and I learned the hard way that the strongest form of truth is the silent one. Because when you try to tell people, convince them with something that you have experienced that is irrelevant to them or to their experience, they will deny you. They will doubt you, possibly attack you. And I brought the Hamas world. And Hamas is a realm that is unknown to many people. Even those who think that they are Hamas members, they don't know Hamas because Hamas is just a ghost. So to try to explain

this elusive reality in a second language, not even my mother tongue, in a foreign country, post 9-11. It was a very strange story, I think, in the United States. And this is why many people found it irrelevant. There were also many people who listened. irrelevant. There were also many people who listened. But I cannot control people's minds. I cannot put the truth or force the truth against their will. Your life is a very profound example of the pain of truth. Personally, you learned the pain of truth.

Your father taught you things. You joined the organization. You fight for the organization. Tell me about the moment when you realized you were not fighting for the truth when you were fighting for Hamas. First of all, my father established in Hamas that came at a cost, you know, as a family, because he did not only invest his own energy.

It was the entire family that had to pay. You know, I had to pay as a child, you know, when they came to arrest him when I was only 10 years old. You know, and I waited for him in the cold days and nights outside the Red Cross, you know, for a very long time. And I didn't know about his location. Visiting him in his prison, seeing him, you know, the way he was and being without a father when I most needed him. You know, I had to work when I was 10 years old to bring my mother money so she can put food on the table.

So this is why from the early beginning, you know, I had to pay the price for this Hamas project. And later, when I was 18 years old, I was imprisoned and I witnessed Hamas brutality in prison. And this is where I start questioning the real nature of the movement. You were put in prison because you were a member of Hamas? Yes. So when you went to prison, your anger, your truth was against your jailer, right? Correct. How did it change? What did you see? I was transferred to this prison in the north of Israel called Megiddo prison, where supposedly the Bible quoted the Armageddon, you know, supposed to happen. It's in that location, in that field.

And in that prison, hundreds of Hamas members were inmates and they had a form of a government in that prison. Hamas was outrageous and they wanted to know who gave information to Israel about their secrets, about their cells. So they were very angry, especially the military wing

and the security wing members of Hamas. So they formed this interrogation group of people and they start torturing people. In prison? In prison. And the jailers don't care because you're just hurting each other. They couldn't stop it because Hamas was very evil.

They, you know, Hamas did not only smuggle things in Gaza by digging tunnels. They dug tunnels in prison to smuggle prisoners to replace the ones that they were under Hamas interrogation. So when the Israeli jail administration came to count the prisoners, they found the number correct. But the one under the interrogation was already smuggled to another

section. So he cannot have a chance to escape when the jailers came to count the prisoners. Why were they interrogating prisoners? If you're in prison, wouldn't they assume that you're not helping Israel because you're in prison or they thought there were spies in the prison? Yes, this is what they thought, that Israel planted spies in prison or they were spies outside, and now they are inside to do a job for Israel. So you're in there, but you're like royalty, right? At this time in Hamas, right?

Because your father is one of the founders. So they loved you, but you didn't want to be part of the interrogations? I became their script. So they had lots of information from the victims who confessed their adventure, their connection to the Israeli intelligence. So I was the one who actually wrote many of their confessions and put them in files that were supposed to go outside to the Hamas security wing outside the prison. So this is how I knew it was just ridiculous because the confessions were taken under torture. Many people were killed and I could tell that it was not realistic. It was not true. And this is when I was, wow, you know,

this is very dangerous what they are doing. And what did it change in you? Because these are the people who took your father, the people who everyone in your world was saying wanted to kill you. What has to change in you for you to believe that that's not true? Well, let's put it this way. Hamas gave me privileges. You know, my father's status, when I walked in our town, I had lots of power.

Nobody would dare to touch me or even say a negative word against me. And we were paid very well, respectability, honor, lots of pride. In prison was the same thing. You know, the moment I got into prison, I was received nicely.

The story is complicated. I had some hardships, but now is not the moment to talk about them because it could create just more confusion. To keep it simple, my father raised me to think like him, like a leader, not like a soldier. You know, and again, I considered myself

from childhood that we were partners in this project. Now, here I am in prison and Hamas is forming a mini government in this prison. So I foresaw the future of Hamas based on this model in prison. And I asked myself the question, what if Hamas at some point becomes a government? Is this how they're going to treat our people? Torture them? You know, extract information, false information under torture, pressure, then kill them?

Then what's the point of this entire project? You know, my father is something else. I love them as my father. But the manifestation of this entire project. You know, my father is something else. I loved him as my father, but the manifestation of his ideology, of his intellect, of his religion, political view, it was like a monster in reality and in prison where I start basically questioning the true nature of my father's creation. Who can you talk to at that time? You can't say these kinds of things to other members of Hamas.

So how did you, this had to be so hard in your head and your heart. I mean, it's easy now to say, oh yeah, that's all wrong. That's all you knew. So how did you handle this? From that moment on, I had to walk alone. How do you walk alone without them thinking you're a traitor? Maybe it was very scary for them to consider that. Even for my father, it was very scary for him.

I'm sure he had some signs, you know. But they had also all the wrong knowledge about Israel, you know, and what Israel stands for. Their idea of treason, that someone is coming to ruin the Palestinian future, cause destruction, do bad things, negative things to the Palestinian society. While this is not what the Israeli intelligence was doing. For 10 years, you know, we weren't causing harm to the civilians or to the innocent people. Israel intention throughout my, let's say, career with the Israeli intelligence was, where do we find a suicide bomber, stop them before they reach their target? When you say we, again, I hope you guys can understand how unique the guest is.

We, for you, has meant Hamas. We has meant Israel. We now means America because you're an American citizen. It's true. Is it hard to have all of this complexity of influence on you? all of this complexity of influence on you? Okay, you know, we live in dependent existence. We all depend on each other and we are all the same.

We are all children of God, you know, but sometimes, you know, a group of us are going to be sick. We will have to do quarantine, or we have to isolate the bad vegetable from the rest of the vegetable, let's say. So when I say we, I mean everybody. I see myself in everything, and everything is in me. I'm no different. So I speak on behalf of my mother, on behalf of my father,

their human suffering and the human suffering everywhere. And this is when I say we, you know, I don't mean like a certain group of people. But I'm saying you have been, you have identified with each of the groups that are involved in this. All the rest of us are just with one. are involved in this. All the rest of us are just with one. Yes, because I'm one with everything, you know, but does not mean that I validate Hamas. I can understand their position and their suffering and why they do the things that they do, but I cannot validate their action. I can see the American fear and anxiety, you know, of another September 11th, but in the same time, I cannot live in fear. You know, I understand why they are afraid. I also can see the Jewish dilemma of will there

be another Holocaust? You know, I can totally step into their shoes and feel the way they feel, you know, when they see all this anti-Semitism. So I feel everybody, but I cannot be anyone in the same time. What did it mean to you when American young people, many of whom are not stakeholders, meaning they're not Palestinian, many of them are not really that familiar with what has happened. When they took you and said, well, this guy is a traitor. He doesn't really know. He's just parroting the IDF script. What does it mean to you when you hear people dismiss your truth that way? When I made my choice to write the book some 15 years ago, approximately, I voluntarily exposed my identity

and all the work I did within the Israeli intelligence against Hamas. I was not exposed. There is a difference, you know, when you catch, let's say, a spy in action, then you persecute them and say, it's like, oh, you did it for money. You did it for treason.

We are going to execute you. But I migrated to the United States after a long experience in that field where, you know, I loved my people and I loved the Israeli people. I understood both point of views. And I went to the deepest possible level of two underground organizations that it's not easy to have access to. Then I moved to safety in the United States.

But in the United States, I felt obligated that I have to document my experience. I have to write it down. I had no idea that it would become a New York Times bestseller. I dedicated the work to my experience. I have to write it down. I had no idea that it would become a New York Times bestseller. I just, I dedicated the work to my father. I wanted my father to step into my shoes and to see reality through my lens. So I wrote the book to him and I knew that I would be labeled as a traitor. It's not, I didn't know. I knew the cost. Of course, I could have moved on just like everyone else and started a new life. And I would have not been labeled as a traitor. But when I make the choice, basically, I'm telling my people, I know what you are going

to accuse me with. And this is your biggest fear, but I'm not afraid of it because I'm willing to stand for my own truth and be alone on the ground of truth than being swayed among millions of sheep being pulled to the slaughterhouse. I prefer to stay alone and I prefer to stay on my own. What does it mean that the truth winds up making you an outcast? What have you drawn as a lesson in this? My biggest lesson, if you stay truthful, most likely mankind will crucify you. Because most of us are afraid of truth. Most of us dwell in our delusion, in our comfort zone. We want it easy.

We want the sins and sins objects. The truth somehow take us from our comfort into the unknown, right into face to face with death. And most people don't want to face death and the reality that all of us are going to die. And the risks that I took, they were very similar to that, you know, because given information about suicide bomber in a society where they praise suicide bombing attacks means that you will be shot, most likely killed on the hands of a mob. So who wants to do this? You know,

and those who just say, oh, you did it for money or someone can do it for money. It's ridiculous. I'm coming from comfort. We had all the money in the world. You know, we had lots of power. I did not need, you know, someone to pay me to do something where I lose myself or I lose my comfort and all the privileges my father gave me in that society. So hence, I learned how to die for the truth. Because simply in the most confusing moments of my life when I was there, you know, I'm contradicting and I'm going against my father. I'm working with his worst enemies. I don't know if they are taking advantage of me.

But I always ask myself the question when I was on my own, I said, how can I go wrong by saving a human life? I said, how can I go wrong by saving a human life? And that was the small flame that kept me going for about 10 years. That it was not possible that I was doing something wrong by saving a human life. People I didn't know and they didn't know about my existence. And even though I contradicted the tribe and their interest, I contradicted my father, which I loved very much, and I saved his life.

And I knew that I would bring shame on him eventually, and he would disown me for saving his life. How did you save his life? My father and his friends, most of my father's class of Hamas, rank of Hamas, were assassinated during the second Palestinian Intifada. If you look into the West Bank, he was, could be, the only leader in the West Bank that was not killed. And simply the Israeli intelligence, the Israeli army, honored my work. You know, what I did there was tremendous. They saw it with a great value. We stopped dozens of suicide bombers. And that

led somehow that my father was my cover. Without him, I wouldn't have the same cover I had. So keeping him alive served their interests somehow. And it was my condition that you don't harm my father. In fact, my condition was you don't harm anybody. And I did my best instead of assassinating someone to arrest them. This was my strategy, that I don't want to take part of killing. Because this is where it was tricky and I wasn't sure.

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Check it out. Check it out. How did you stay legitimate in Hamas's eyes without doing the things that you were trying to prevent on the Israeli side? Does that make sense? Like how you're you're a leader in Hamas, right? You're coming up through the ranks, your father's. Right. You have to do certain things.

They want you to be a part of certain things. How did you keep them comfortable that you were a member of Hamas without participating in horrible things? You know, I was my father's assistant. And you can say he's trustee. I'm his eldest son, and he loved me very much. So this is where I invested most of my energy.

I invested most of my energy to create a shift in my father's paradigm, you know, but using reason and logic, trying to bring to his attention, you know, the impact of Hamas terrorism on the Palestinian society and on the international community. It was very early at that time, you know, Hamas was not even a global terrorist organization. And I saw that he was responding to that. So this is where I invested most of my energy. Now, because all Hamas leaders come to him and I was his assistant, so they had to come through me.

So I became the connecting point. If I wanted to isolate him completely from the rest of the movement to just become the mediator, that everything had to come through me, whatever it is, information, letter, military, political wing, Hamas bureau from abroad, whatever it was, it had to come through me. And this is how I became Hamas intelligence hub but without having to be part of the movement and having to execute their plans.

You were about the information not the execution of the actions. Yes. Which was perfect for you. Yes. How did you sleep without being in constant fear that someone's going to find out? Because you must have been hearing people all over you trying to figure out who's giving them this information. How are they finding this out? You know, I have to say that the cover and the amount of secrecy the Israeli intelligence gave me,

gave me lots of confidence, something that I did not expect about them, like how much they cared about me as a human being, first of all, you know, and my well-being, to a degree that they would put an entire city under curfew for my safety, or I would have literally most skilled undercover Israeli special forces escorting me throughout town, whatever I did, wherever I went. And they kept all the time their eyes on me because I was also, I knew a lot about the Israeli intelligence. It's not I only knew about Hamas, I knew how Israel works. And their biggest fear was that I get captured. If I get captured and under pressure, I could confess about how Israel, the dynamic of their work, and this was their biggest nightmare. So protecting me 24 seven became like they're protecting their own operations. Sounds like the makings of the best episode of Fauda ever

is at once, you were the last person Hamas would suspect. You were in the perfect position to know everything that Israel needed to know. And also, if you had been captured

or discovered by Hamas, you would have had the only thing that maybe would have kept you alive, which is if you kill me, you're never going to know everything I know about what Israel is doing. And I'm the only one who knows it. What a unique, now, did you design it that way or was it just how it worked out? First of all, it was impossible for them to have any evidence. So let's say if I had... No phone, they never saw you with anybody? We never communicate like this. We never communicate the way ordinary people communicate.

So let's say we had our own devices. If I had any device for communication at that moment, I would have the special forces in the area. None of Hamas would get close. Let's say if we had, it's not like, you know, what the FBI you see in the movies, they put some like wire, you know, and somebody can search you and find that. It was a lot more complicated than that. You know, that even if they try to search you in a meeting, they cannot find anything, even though you are bugging them or you have something on you. Did you have members of Hamas who were suspicious of you? I'm sure there were.

I'm sure there were, but it was not possible for them to have any evidence. The reason, because I was involved in so many operations, and sometimes we had no option but to arrest somebody immediately after a meeting because they were just a suicide bomber, for example. So when they, during interrogation, they mentioned my name and I was not arrested right away. So we had to orchestrate actually an attack on my apartment where, you know, Israel had to launch some missiles, you know, burn the house, destroy half of the house. You know, even they attacked my mother's house after they evacuated the family. That was all orchestrated to just convince Hamas that, you know, I was wanted, that I was not the person who gave the information on the movement. But this was not perfect because Hamas at some point, after you get involved in so many operations and many of your friends, supposedly, let's say members of the movement being arrested or being

assassinated, somebody at some point will start asking questions. But the power that they did not have any evidence. And my father's cover did not allow them to just come knocking on my door and say, hey, where have you been? What have you been doing? And try to torture me, for example. So they had maybe to put me under supervision for a long time.

I'm sure I was. The Israeli intelligence was aware of this, but we never give them a lead. Now, one of the decisions that you made, which has to, you know, very difficult, is you made a decision and you've said it a couple of times here. I had to walk alone.

I had to walk alone. You decided in a society where you're supposed to take a wife, okay? And you're supposed to walk alone. I had to walk alone. You decided in a society where you're supposed to take a wife, okay? And you're supposed to have kids. That's what a man does, especially a leader. You decided not to do that because you didn't want to have to expose people to risk. How hard was that? And how hard was it to explain?

Yeah, my mother always wanted me to get married, you know, since I was 20. And she would bring the most beautiful girls in town, you know, it's all arranged marriage there. And I refused. And this was the point, you know, it was unfair, you know, because I am not what they thought. So what did you tell your mom? Like, what would you tell other people? I kept, you know, saying it's too early. I have to finish school. And I was in college at that time. So I needed to finish my university, et cetera. And I just kept pushing it until I got out of the region. And then, you know, I mean, it's such a complicated society in terms of its beliefs. You know, if, okay, he's in school, all right, he's really dedicated. If they start to think, well, maybe he doesn't want to marry a woman because he doesn't love women. Now you're in a place, you know, one of the strange

things we're dealing with in America is the LGBTQ community supporting and to different degrees, excusing Hamas. Hamas is not exactly a gay friendly organization. You had to balance all of these things. This is also very, very strange. You know, if Hamas was killing LGBT, you know, then America would like be a lot more serious than Hamas killing Jews. And this is where, you know, I find it really hard to believe. Hamas does not tolerate this. You know, they killed so many people for just being suspicious that they were homosexual. being suspicious that they were homosexual. And Hamas does not tolerate, actually,

you know, just look at the statistics of how many honor killing in that society. And I'm not talking about homosexuality or being completely different, transgenders and et cetera. Hamas does not accept anybody who break the Islamic law, the Islamic Sharia. They would kill them with no hesitation. Actually the punishment for homosexuals to take them to the highest building in town

and throw them alive from that post. This is how bad, you know, the punishment. when I find it very hard to understand why the LGBT community is not seeing Hamas as a threat. Why do you think Jewish people don't count as minorities in American society? And why they're allowed to be targeted the way we're seeing them targeted right now? You know, Jewish people throughout centuries, you know, the people who care about education, you know, they work as a group and they have achievements since the ancient empires. You know, they were the scripts, they were the accountants, and hence they took very sensitive positions in governments, in parliaments, in science,

innovation, et cetera. And even though they have been a minority throughout centuries, but they are very powerful minority. And people tend, you know, to blame those who are in power, especially when there is shift in power, a government rise, another government fall, an empire rise. It's conditioned existence. There is always rise and fall of a certain force. So they're seen as David and Goliath at the same time. Yes. And because if you were on a college campus and you said death to fill in the blank, any minority group, you would be done on that campus. Unless it's Jews. It's the only time I've ever seen it. If you say no more blacks,

whatever language you want to come up with, but that's the idea, is to target this group. I've never seen it allowed, especially on a college campus, which is, you know, they're so liberal by disposition for good or bad. Only Jewish people. And do you think that's because

they're the only minority group that has achieved such a high percentage of that? So I guess that's why in the Middle East, it's the only time we've seen the little guy be stronger than the big guys who want to beat them up.

Exactly. And this is what happened in Israel. First of all, the Jewish people came as legal migrants and they came under the British mandate. And they had the connection to the land, historic connection to the land, spiritual connection to the land. They did not come to steal land. They came as legal migrants. They bought the land.

They developed the land. It started like farms, kibbutzim, and within no time, it became a superpower, leading in technology, the leading economy in the Middle East, the leading army intelligence on a global level with a network that is unheard of with the rest of the world. So, of course, you know, the Arabs look at this, you know, like basically migrants. They came and they took the lead in no time. While the Arab Gulf money, they have so much oil, so much natural resources, so much human resources.

They have everything it takes to actually build the most powerful countries, but they're still behind. So this gap, you know, between the 7th century mentality and 21st century is the gap between Hamas and Israel, where, you know, Hamas advocates for chaos, tribalism, revenge, vengeance, blood feud, while Israel advocates for all the values of not only the Western civilization, but one of the most, or say, richest spiritual religions in the world. With, say, the most advanced or developed religion, I would say. So with that said, the Jewish consciousness is not only exist of religion,

it's existing of lots of experience of every direction of life, of every path of life. And this is what puts them at odd with people who want to stay in the bubble of the seventhth century. So when they see women, you know, freedom, when they see everything that makes Israel different, they are afraid to accept Israel as part of that region. But Israel has given high ground to people who want to support the suffering. The suffering in Gaza, I don't have to tell you.

It's one of the only things that I've come at people about who were criticizing your interview on my show. I was like, well, don't say he doesn't appreciate the suffering. He grew up in the suffering. His people are the ones who are suffering. That's his blood there. And that's the one thing that's resonating in America that I think is a concern for the Israeli proposition is they, Gaza is like a hellscape. And they're pounding them now and killing tons of people who it's hard to say are the people who are the threat to Israel. How do you explain that for people? How hard life is in Gaza largely because of Israel. And how was that okay? Hamas started this war knowing that it would bring wrath upon civilians. And this is their courtesy.

This is what they wanted. They wanted to turn the globe against Israel. They knew Israel would retaliate, and they knew that Gaza is one of the most populated areas in the world. They had a plan, and they knew that the world is going to put lots of pressure on Israel. And this is where they actually Hamas victory. If Hamas, instead of being perceived as the terrorist, Israel becomes the terrorist, then Hamas has won. And this is what they want. Because they always play the victim card, you know, and they always want a justification for their terrorism. But they don't realize that even if you were the victim, let's say that the Palestinians had actually a just cause, let's say. And they were oppressed by Israel.

Let's say, for example, terrorism is still not justified. terrorism is still not justified. And peaceful resistance is a lot more accepted in order for Palestinians to achieve their goals, especially in the 21st century. Well, Hamas does not believe in a peaceful resistance because they are obligated to jihad. They're obligated to use the sword if an occupier took, let's say, their holy site, Al-Aqsa Mosque.

So they become obligated now. It's a vow. It's now a religious, it's a holy war. It's not a national political war against Israel. I wonder if it's striking a chord now with a mood in America. America is getting harsher. I'm sure you've seen in your years here now. This used to be the country of sweet strength.

Of course, this hypocrisy. Of course, this inconsistency. Of course, America has done things that it shouldn't have done at home and abroad. But it was never a place that the majority would put their arms around a strong man. It couldn't be about hate. It had to be about something positive. That's changing. Grievance is becoming very powerful in America as a mentality of being victimized by systems,

by people, by wealth, by whatever. And maybe the reason we're seeing a surprising reaction in America is because the mood in America is changing. And we don't just reject what you just said. I don't know that everybody embraces it the way they used to here, which is what was done to you is wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right. True. I think that we're sliding here in a different direction now where, you know, you did me bad, you did me dirty, and now I'm going to do you dirty.

And a lot of people who voted for Trump, you know, there's a weird paradox there where people will say, I don't like this about him. I don't like this about him. I don't like this. I wouldn't want him to be my father. I wouldn't want him to marry my sister. I wouldn't want this. But he's going to get after the people who are hurting me. That's new in America. And that's exactly the mentality that you're dealing with in the Middle East, which is, well, I'm going to come kill you now, and I'm going to do it in a bad way because of what you've been doing to me. We always rejected that here. This is the first time I've ever seen a group like Hamas, get any kind of benefit of explanation by Americans? Well, I tell you why, because, you know, we attract our kind, you know, we attract our type, and we project ourselves through similar struggles. So, violence did end, you know,

hence the Greek philosophers came with a cure, you know, which is democracy. But it looks like also democracy is in crisis right now, you know, with all the technological revolution and the social media that 20 years ago, most Americans did not sit, watch TV to follow up with Middle Eastern problems, unless America was involved in a war. Nobody would have cared, Palestinian Israelis fighting. Okay, this is irrelevant to the American daily problem. But now everybody has it and everybody looks, see children dying and they don't know the origins of suffering.

They don't have the power of discernment. They don't have of suffering. They don't have the power of discernment. They don't have the knowledge. They don't have the information. They are so far from that reality, but they can't just identify with their own pain, with their own suffering, because we are all humans. And as I told you from the beginning, we are all dependent on each other. There is actually no difference. It's just different climate. You know, but we are all the same. If a bunch of those extremists, say here in the United States, grew up in the Middle East, you know, they would be developed into terrorists. You know, because sometimes terrorism is not only to carry a gun and shoot people.

You know, it could be in thought. You know, a very violent thought could be actually a lot more dangerous. You know, and that's what makes my father, for example, his thoughts and ideas, very violent ideas. You know, he does not carry the gun. He doesn't know how to shoot gun. You know, but others shoot gun on his behalf.

So with that said, you know, it's hatred is a dead end. Violence is a dead end. Violence is a dead end. You want to know what I love? You, but also ExpressVPN. Why? Got to protect my personal information. I'm tired of it.

Tired of having conversations. And all of a sudden I start getting ads. And then I get these same people telling me in my job as a journalist that, oh, well, we can't do anything. We have to let people say whatever they want. Yeah, as long as you can take it to the bank. You ever wonder how they make money? They track our searches, our view, video history, everything, everything we click on. They're building a profile on us and they're selling it. If you use Express VPN, okay, it's an app, computer, phone, right? It hides your IP address from third parties.

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Especially in your culture. And in fact, all the cultures you embrace, right? Family's really important in America. Family's really important in Israel. Family's really important in the Arab world's really important in Israel. Family's really important in the Arab world. You had to go against your father. At first, he didn't know. But you said to me before that you felt lucky that you were able to tell your father about what you were doing yourself face to face.

That would be the last thing that I would ever want to do. Why did you consider yourself lucky? And what do you remember of that moment? Well, actually it was not face to face. He was in prison. It was high security prison for a while. And there was no communication between me and him. I was in the United States at that time. And I was writing the book. So suddenly they moved him from high

security prison to just some jail. I don't know what was the reason they did that. And at that time, I was in touch with my mother. So she told me, listen, your father has access to phone if you want to talk to him. And of course, my mother didn't know that I wrote a book about all my adventure with the Israeli intelligence with Hamas in the Middle East. So I thought to myself, this is my only shot. If I don't tell him myself in this phone conversation, which I had a window of one or two days only to talk to him before he's transferred back to the high security prison, I thought he's going to hear only from media and I will never speak to him again. So this is when I took the phone number.

I called him. I told him, Dad, this is what I did for 10 years. I don't know if you asked yourself the question or not, but I was part of the Israeli operation against Hamas. I, in fact, saved your life many times. You didn't know about that. And I stopped as many as I could suicide bombing attacks. I didn't do it for money. I didn't do anything for any personal selfish gain. I did it because I was trying to save you. I was trying to save myself, to save our family and to save many people's lives. Then he really went into very long silence, like he didn't know what to say. It was, I cannot imagine, you know, how he felt in that moment.

Then he, his words were like this. Do you have any blood on your hands? I told him no. He said, have you ever killed anybody? I told him no. He said, then son, please come back and I will protect you. If you don't have blood on your hand, I will protect you with everything that I have. I told him, I'm sorry, I cannot go back. And this is final.

I wrote a book about it. Everything's coming in the media. And I give you the permission to disown me. Because I knew what is going to be for him in that site, what is awaiting him. Then he said, no matter what will happen, you will always be my son. And I will not disown you. Two days later, I heard from the media that he publicly disowned me. And since then, we haven't spoken.

What is the hardest part for you emotionally in dealing with what you had to do? This was the hardest phone call I ever had. But also I'm very relieved and I'm very happy that I had the chance to tell him the truth. And this is just another example that I was not ashamed, you know, of what I did. Because there was no reason to be ashamed of saving human lives, even though most of the society consider it shameful. Is my father I love him? I know what I did, you know. I saved his life, but he does not owe me anything, you know, because he gave me life before. And I will always owe him as my father.

And I will always honor him regardless of his involvement with Hamas. But I cannot validate his action. I cannot validate his rule as a Hamas leader, as long as he takes part of that move. The father is something, the persona that he takes is something else. How do you deal with knowing that people that you loved, family, friends, want you dead? It was very hard at the beginning. You know, imagine if I go back to see my mother, the first to stab me would be my siblings, my brothers. The only person probably wouldn't do it is my mother in that world. The only person. But everyone else will participate and they will take turn on doing that.

It would take no time for a mob to just form in that neighborhood and I would be finished in no time. I had to live with that before I revealed my rule in the Middle East, you know, and accept that am I ready? Will I be okay with whatever consequences are going to come? And I had to be at least strong, suicidal. And I didn't know what I was expecting. The worst part was, is not to be accused by treason from my people. It was to be accused of treason in the United States.

This is where it was very hard and I did not see that coming. Now, how did they explain that? Why would America see you as treasonous? It depends on how you perceive and everybody would perceive it the way they want. How can they know my real motive behind this? How can they know all the sides of my paradox or even my matrix of life. So the Americans were afraid that you were a terrorist? Some were afraid that I was a double agent, you know, that I'm playing, let's say, a Hamas game here, building a sleeping cell.

Others, when I threatened, let's say, believe it or not, ex-Muslims, you know, who thought that I stole the light from them, you know, that I was competing against them by saying, hey, I was a bad guy, now I'm a good guy. And I never meant to say this. I'm just saying I'm a human being. I'm on a human journey. And my birth was in this this place and I traveled from that place to this place. I never said that I was bad. I confessed and today I repent. So please your forgiveness because I don't ask my forgiveness from people. So even though that was not my narrative, many of the ex-Muslims in the United States who were like New York Times bestseller, et cetera, and they made shitload of money from American people.

So it's like, oh, this guy now is a threat. So they start speaking against me. And because they were well-established authors, writers, speakers way before I came. And I was very young. I didn't know the American diversity. I didn't know the difference between liberal and conservative, et cetera, between CNN, Fox News, for example. I didn't know who my enemy was. And I got attacked, slandered, and politically assassinated in the United States at the early beginning of my journey where, you know, I was,

instead of like, I meant for the book to tell the truth, it became a matter of doubt and suspicion. And instead of like, it was autobiography, you know, everything in it is a fact. I lived it. And when you go to the bookstore, you will find it under the fiction. And I ask, you know, the store, why are you having this book under fiction? You know, it's not a fiction. It's a reality. It's a real book.

It's my life. And they could not explain that. What does the publisher say? You know, my publisher was a small publisher. And they tried to do the best, and they still try to do the best to go against the current of this society and other societies. But your father is who he is. It's not like he ever came out and said, this isn't my son. He wouldn't disown somebody who wasn't his son.

Israel never came out and said, we don't know who this guy is. We don't know anything about this, which they would. So sometimes it's not about the validity of the criticism. It's about the purpose of the criticism. You are taking up market share from people who want to tell Americans what to think about Islamism, extreme Islamism, the Middle East. And you are very intimidating because I don't know that anybody checks the boxes that you do. It's one thing. I grew up in Palestine, a very powerful perspective. I know someone in Hamas. I was in Hamas and I got out. Okay. I worked as an Israeli spy. Okay. And now I've come to America and I understand American politics and I'm worried. And I want to speak to you as

someone who's an expat about what, those are all different people all the time except for you no fear you know hamas and other terror organizations organize violence against people in america all the time you're not afraid that uh especially right now you would be a beautiful trophy for people the The greatest fear, honestly, is not the fear of death. It's the fear of losing one's status. You know, what people are going to say about us. This is what we are afraid. We maintain this image, public image,

and we try to leave this perfect impression because this is our courtesy. This is our value in the society. And we go on our entire life cultivating and building and adding brick by brick in this empire. It's all imaginary. And for me, the real death was when I dropped the status. Even though it appeared for a Hamas prince or the son of Hamas leader

in that culture was like, I was the center of the world, right? It's why it was very hard to drop that status, even though it was a rotten one. But when the person is holding so tight onto it, we don't realize that this is something that's actually against our evolution, against our freedom, and all it takes just to drop it and have the power to say, you know, my potential is much higher than this status. So I dropped the status. I crucified, let's say, the ego of that society, and I had to build it from scratch somewhere

else, somewhere new. But also here in the United States, you know, I built something. I went against so many odds. The US government wanted to deport me. As I told you, some people injustly accused me of things. Many people misunderstood me. Many people thought I was a threat, you know, and they could not actually validate my account somehow. I could not prove it to them. So it was very hard for me to build myself up again. But somehow, miraculously, I became New York Times' Bassala. A movie was based on the book.

I found myself in Hollywood, and I was meeting some Hollywood movie stars, etc. Red carpets here and there, Sundance. Then it's like there was money making. But this is not why I came to the United States. And I thought to myself, am I able to crucify this status that I built here in Hollywood? Am I willing to drop it again? And that was also another form of death that I demonstrated to myself.

It seems like if I have the potential to have the power and I dropped it, I moved to Southeast Asia. I lived in a small island, less than $500 a month. You know, I ate one meal per day. I practiced yoga for 10 years every day of my life, you know, and I forgot about books, status, New York Times bestseller, spy life, everything. New York Times bestseller spy life everything so then it became my daily life

to just drop my identity or identification with ego status even my physical form and this is my freedom now you tell me to die what is it? is it like a gunshot?

this is not the greatest fear. You wouldn't feel anything. I myself died. You know, my heart stopped for about 30 seconds. I was detected by doctors in Scottsdale, Arizona. They said, most people after three seconds don't come back. And you have like episodes of that. We don't understand how you managed to come back. It's a miracle. And what I saw, what I witnessed on the other side was just incredible. The freedom, the lightness of just like being free of this body. And from that point on, you know, I realized, and that was, by the way, with all the pressure coming from losing my family, the pressure of

people misunderstanding my position, the government here people misunderstanding my position, the government here, the government there, the terrorist group, everybody turned against me. You know, when I was in a situation where the Department of Homeland Security is not believing my narrative and telling me you cannot prove it, and on the other hand, Hamas is threatening to kill me, you know, then there is nothing left to trust, you know, and it was so much pressure on me that I was, I remember at Whole Foods Market, I was with a friend of mine and that's it. I just blacked out. I died, literally died. So after that event, you know, after that event and what the doctor said, I lost my fear of death. If they want to kill me for who I am,

if they want to kill me and accuse me of treason, being a traitor or being a mouthpiece of Zionists or being whatever it is, an actor, they're only seeing themselves. Everyone who pass a judgment, I just project back on them who they are. And in the meantime, I just stay truthful to who I am. And now you feel the need to address what's happening specifically in America. Why?

It's my obligation. You know, I made a vow when I became American citizen. It's not an easy thing. I had to drop also any other nationality, any other political interest, any other culture. You know, many people come here to the United States, for example, and they are so confused. One leg in the United States, other leg in Gaza, or one leg here, another leg in Saudi Arabia. So you're either American or not. You know, of course, I understand the culture. It's different, you know, to have the culture,

to have the beautiful things that we bring. It's the diversity of the United States, and that's something amazing and positive. But first of all, when I see my country today going through all this confusion on campuses and all the amount of hatred projected through Gaza, Hamas, and Israel conflict, as someone who lived that, I am obligated to talk about it. Because I truly, when October 7th event happened, I was far away from the Inassis,

in the middle of the ocean. And I thought that my life is going to end there. And I was very happy with it. I maintained that simple life. And I had two choices to just say, okay, it's not my business anymore. I did everything I could. And I'm done with human cruelty, whether if it's in the Middle East or in the United States. But then the calling was very strong. I have responsibility and this is why I just took a

flight and I came back. Here I am, you know, it has been a while before the pandemic. I haven't been to the United States. I have obligation. You know, this is a reality that I lived, you know, and we cannot bring it to the United States. Instead, we need to understand it and be honest with ourselves so we can lend a hand to a struggling region. And I tell you, the way is not blaming Israel on the death of the Gazan children. We need in war people die. That's a problem in war people die, children die. Actually it's a miracle that we have only 10,000 casualties because we are talking about

one of the most populated area on earth with the most barbaric savages living under and beneath the city using human shields. So if this was the United States, it could have been 100,000 people dying. And because one day I was part of the Israeli operation, I know that it's not in their interest to target civilians. Because they know the world will turn against them. Why would they do something like this? It's happening, by the way.

And it is happening. Because a lot of civilians are dying. It looks like they have to know they're going to be hitting them and they're continuing to do it. Chris, listen to this. Our command, you know, my job when there was,

let's say, a target, whether if it's for arrest or for something else, that always the command was make sure no one else in the car. And the last phone call before whatever it was, is there anyone in the car? Yes, his daughter in the car, his six-year-old daughter in the car. And the operation was canceled.

And we had been looking for this guy for six months, and it was a mastermind behind suicide bombing attacks. So when things are at ease, and the intelligence officer sitting there, and it's not as tense as it is right now, when we have thousands of Hamas members storming an entire, many communities, genocide, killing everybody. That was a different reality because the officer could say, okay, we will get him next time. Next

time can wait a little bit. But now Israel cannot wait because the next attack could be Tel Aviv. The next attack could be biological attack, which Iran has access to chemical weapons. And even up to this point, I think it's a miracle that Hamas is not using chemical weapons against Israel because they have the delivery method. They have the missiles that they are shooting.

So why not put like a chemical head and shoot it at some major city. It's within their capacity. And this has been my fear, actually, that they already have it and they may use it. So for Israel to actually have the ground operation, I understand their position. And I understand that the civilian casualty was inevitable

and Hamas wanted that more than anyone else. And I understand that the civilian casualty was inevitable, and Hamas wanted that more than anyone else, while Israel trying to avoid that as much as they could, but it's impossible. This is why I said many times we cannot blame Israel. If we need to see it correctly, we need to condemn Hamas, not blame Hamas, condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization. And in fact, terrorism is an understatement because what they did, only savages of the dark ages, they didn't do what Hamas did to those communities.

So first of all, we deal with Hamas. Civilian casualties, this is inevitable, and we cannot bend just because of our emotions, and we cannot handle the bloodshed, especially for the decision makers. They should not bend for the public opinion because it's not matter of point of view now. We are not in election now. We are not voting for the next president. It's war. It's the language of the gun. It's the language of the sword.

And after counts been settled, then after that, we can move to the political process and to recreate and to heal the wounds of war. of war. Hence, I call all my friends here in the United States, those who don't understand the conflict, to educate themselves first before they start taking sides. Because if we continue going this direction, Hamas and Israel conflict could turn here in our cities and we may witness mass shooting at some point. Because hatred keep growing you know and violence begins with an idea you know i see how uh angry some of those students on campuses on capitol hill interrupting politicians who are trying to do the job you know to manage the war you know the united states is not participating in the war the united states is managing the war. You know, the United States is not participating in the war. The United States is managing the war and helping Israel manage the crisis. So it is not like the United States

launched and initiated a war that is against the interest of the American people. Hence, we need to see things for what they are. If we continue to see them for what they are not, projecting hatred, anti-Semitism, threatening, chanting Hamas slogans in our cities, I worry that this will turn violent in no time. How can I help you? I mean, you already did. You gave me the platform and I'm very grateful. That's all I needed, just to express those thoughts and communicate with people. I appreciate you coming from so many different points

of powerful perspective. And you're a very brave guy. And I respect that. And I appreciate you. Happy to call you brother. It is amazing to have the opportunity to hear about his experience. You should check out the film that's about him. You should read his book and you should listen to his words because painful things really push you to want to have a simple judgment. And that is not the way to understanding with what we're dealing with in the Middle East. And I know that's not satisfying, but I'm not here to make you satisfied with where you are. I am here to feed your ability to be a critical thinker. And so is he. Thanks for subscribing, following, checking me out on NewsNation 8 and 11 Eastern every weekday night. Let's get after it.