The Chris Cuomo Project - Rainn Wilson

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

Rainn Wilson (actor, “The Office,” and author, “Soul Boom: Why We Need A Spiritual Revolution”) joins Chris Cuomo to discuss the need for social transformation based on spiritual precepts, why humans cannot afford pessimism and cynicism, what makes partisan politics one of the great evils of the contemporary world, how to get young people to look at religion through a new lens, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When I say Rainn Wilson, you say, oh, actor, maybe the office. But what you should say is solution to one of the most vexing problems we have. Hey, I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to another episode of the Chris Cuomo Project. Special offering today in the form of Rainn Wilson. Why? Because it's someone you know who's talking to you about something you didn't know he knew. Namely, the big questions that all surround us about how do we get better than this? How do we get out of this? This nastiness, this cultural kind of revolt against decency and all the hate parades and the sides taking, Rainn Wilson has an idea, a soul boom of an idea.

That's his latest book. And before you make any of the mistakes that are, of course, derivative of the dogma that we're all dealing with, oh, it's about religion. He's going to put his weird faith that I can't pronounce on me. No, he is selling nothing but belief in better. And it's a really smart book that draws from so many quotes that you will know and want to know. And it's Rainn Wilson in a way that you haven't seen

or heard him before, which is talking not about make-believe, but about what is all too real. Listen, if you know anything about me, you know I've been doing AG1 for over five years, okay? Why? Well, because I heard about it just as I was looking at all of these white and translucent brown bottles in my life. Had to be a dozen of them, okay? Which vitamins I took with when, with food in the morning, at night. And it was making it so that I didn't even want to deal with it anymore. Then I discovered AG1.

One scoop, one glass of water. I like it warm. Glug, glug, glug. Boom. Done like it warm. Glug, glug, glug. Boom. Done for the day. Doesn't upset my stomach, and it has everything. And by the way, you take AG1, it is a hell of a lot more cost effective than doing these things separately. Trust me, okay?

It will give you a better way to elevate your baseline health, all right? better way to elevate your baseline health. All right. AG1 is therefore the supplement that I trust to provide the support my body needs every day. And that's why they've been a long time partner. If you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1. Get a free one-year supply of vitamin D3K2. Why not just D3? Combinations matter for absorption. And you'll get five free AG1 travel packs. Very cool, because you can't get through the TSA otherwise. Go to drinkag1.com CCP.

That's drinkag1.com slash CCP. Check it out. Take control of your health. The Chris Cuomo Project is supported by Cozy Earth. Why? Because I like their sheets. That's why. A lot of people don't get a good night's sleep for a lot of reasons.

One of the ones that you can control is bedding. One out of three of us report being sleep deprived. Okay, well, what is it? Well, it stresses all kinds of things. But the wrong sheets can make you hot, can make you cold. I'm telling you, I don't even believe it either. But Cozy Earth sheets breathe.

And here's what I love about them. Cozy Earth's best-selling sheet is a bamboo set, okay? Temperature regulating. Gets softer with every wash. I'm not kidding you, all right? Now, so if you go to CozyEarth.com and you enter the code, enter the code CHRIS, and you can get up to 35% off your first order. CozyEarth.com, and the code is CHRIS. Rainn Wilson, what a pleasure. I love what you're about and what you're trying to introduce

to the rest of us with Soul Boom. I'm so happy that you took this opportunity. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here. So I am amazed, and this rarely happens, very different. You have great talents. You have such an interesting and eccentric, as you say, background, different from mine. And yet I identify with so much of what you're putting out there. And I really hope it resonates with others also.

And what I love most about it is the sense of purpose. So I wanna question your optimism. Why do you believe that we can establish a we? You know, like in the title, you talk about we, and you talk about we as if you assume that we can have a collective interest, whereas all I see is stratification. Why do you believe that you can reach the collective? Oh, that's a great question.

Two reasons. One is there's a story I tell in the book in which I was a young actor in New York City in the 90s and I was studying with the great acting teacher, Andre Gregory, the star of My Dinner with Andre, and he acted in various movies and whatnot. And he would meet with the students, and he met with me in his little apartment

in Greenwich Village, and he said, so Rain, what's going on? How are you feeling? And I was like, Andre, I'm so overwhelmed. I'm pessimistic. I'm run down. I'm cynical about the world. And this was the nineties things, you know, we had a balanced budget. Things were going okay in the nineties, relatively speaking. And I said, yeah, I'm just kind of overwhelmed and just feeling really negative and down. And I'll never forget it to this day. It was one of the shortest conversations that had the greatest impact

on the rest of my life. He grabbed my arm hard. I should have canceled him right then and there. He grabbed my arm hard, but he was like 70 years old. And he looked into my eyes with like laser beams. And he said, don't, don't do it. You can't do it. You can't be pessimistic. You can't be cynical. If you're pessimistic, they win. If you're cynical, they win.

You have to keep hope alive. You have to stay positive. You have to create joy and create hope. Otherwise, you'll just sit there on your couch being cynical and they will win and then he's like get out of here it's like a coach saying go play the second half kids and then I stumbled out of his apartment and uh you know onto Greenwich Avenue and um I uh I'll never forget that conversation and he's a hundred percent right so part of it for me is kind of like, I'm skeptical that people will come together.

I'm skeptical that people will come together in a united front to heal, fix, and unite with love until something really dangerous and drastic and horrific happens, as is often the case. Remember the way that people came together after 9-11? We had a year of collective goodwill and love and hugs. Then we made some disastrous decisions, some international policy decisions. But nonetheless, there was that time. So I do believe that perhaps

something really terrible does need to happen, but I truly believe that anyone working to make the world a better place, we cannot afford to sit in pessimism and cynicism. I agree. And as a student of philosophy and spirituality, as you are, I do accept the idea, the maxim even, that it is choice. You decide how to feel. I can't make Rain angry. Rain can't make me angry. I make me angry. But easier said than done. said than done. And we struggle with that all the time, which is part of what you're laying out in the book, which I think is a really great approach, especially, and also I was looking at some of the

reviews or comments online. There is zero proselytizing in this book, okay? Yes, when you're going to hear a word, I don't know how many people are ever going to have seen the word B-A-H-A apostrophe I before. And they're going to say, wait, what is this? What is his faith? You got to know his story and you got to Google the faith and understand it. And then it's not going to bother you. What will bother you is how people throughout the development of this faith were persecuted for believing in something just because it was different, even though it's completely synachronistic with everything else. But zero proselytizing. It's not about what you believe in. It's about what the famous Christian scientist Teilhard de Chardin said, all that really

matters in your life is dedication to something bigger than yourself. And you see that as the root of progress. How so? Well, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin also said my very favorite quote of all time, which is that we are spiritual beings. We're not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. And that to me really lands and is in some ways the foundation of the whole book, because if we recognize that we're spiritual beings and we've got 80 or 90 years riding around in our meat suits when they fall away, that we have souls, that there is a divine force or presence. We'll call it him or God. God, I have a chapter in the book called The Notorious G.O.D., where I explore the concept of God, then this spiritual way of seeing the world needs to be something that drives how we do

everything. Unfortunately, Chris, and this is kind of one of the main theses of the book, I hope that's a word, theses. It sounds like feces, but I'm going to go with theses, the main theses of the book. I hope that's a word, theses. It sounds like feces, but I'm going to go with theses and say that, unfortunately, in contemporary America, spirituality means one of two things. It either means going to church on Sunday or synagogue or going to mosque or whatever, or it means a kind of very vague general new age kind of smorgasbord spirituality where you pick and choose what makes you feel better and brings you serenity and calms your anxiety. And then you're done. So you do a meditation app or a yoga class, or you read an Eckhart Tolle book or something like that, and you feel a little bit better and then it ends there. But if we are all collectively souls going on a journey,

then we are waves on one sea. We are not different. There is an illusion of separateness between us. And we have to work for a social transformation based on spiritual precepts. And that's really what I get to later on in the book. I start with my personal story and then I investigate some stuff like death and God and the soul and the sacred and some of these kinds of concepts. But then in the second half of the book, I'm really

getting and aiming toward my thesis, which is what you said, aiming for something bigger than ourselves, which is a radical transformation and re-imagination of how we do most everything based on spiritual concepts. Now, I understand that might get a lot of eye rolls and a lot of like, oh, you're just John Lennon. Imagine the song and blah, blah, blah. No, that's just the hat. um and uh it might be naive but it's it's crucial because everything is unraveling you know as yates said the center cannot hold and we've investigated a lot of different political tools and you know what they're not working out so well we're getting more and more divided and things are getting more divisive and things are falling apart to an even greater

degree. So how can we come together and reimagine systems based on spiritual precepts? I love it. And it's, I believe, a panacea. I believe it's a cure-all. And there's a lot there. And the book gives you a lot, but Rain just gave you another device that he uses in the book, which is a great one. And again, maybe it's just that it resonates with me, but I don't think I'm uncommon in this regard. I love aphorisms. I love quotes because so many people

have thought the words better than I ever could. So many great minds have been applied to these simple and accessible ideas, and Rain gets them. And so his book is just completely not littered, but it's completely sprinkled with quotes and aphorisms that really drive home these simple ideas. And they are simple ideas. They're just hard to apply. I often joke that if life were a written test, I would ace it. I have no question in my mind that I would certainly get above a 97 on the written test.

The practical is kicking my ass. My ability to make the same mistakes and have the same negative behaviors and the same feelings are proof positive of that. And what they are really a manifestation of, assuming And what they are really a manifestation of, assuming all my chemicals are balanced, you know, and I'm basically healthy, is that it's hard to do things consistently, especially alone. And I had a theologian yesterday. I was having lunch with this guy who's a theologian. And he said two things that really got me going. One was, he said, you know, you asked the other day, what is it to be religious? I don't know. The guy's a theologian. I said,

what do you mean you don't know what it means to be religious? He goes, I don't know. He goes, I can give you a Latin root of the word that means to follow a set of rules, but what rules and when and who's and why? He's like, being religious is irrelevant and anybody who makes it relevant is judging and comparing. And all that matters is how you live. The Christian faith boils down to two words, and Pope Francis said them early on. My faith is love mercy. What the derivative of that is and where that power comes from, he goes, that's for me to care about, not for you to assess.

Love mercy. If you love mercy, you're living your faith. If that makes you religious, that's great. But it's also completely secular. You don't have to believe in someone bigger, but something bigger, which means that you're guided by a why. And he said, you know, we're all fixated on our kids. People are upset about the books.

They're upset about identity. People are upset about the books. They're upset about identity. They're upset about reproductive rights. It always comes down to our kids, school shootings. We're worried about our kids. And yet none of us live what we're so worried about losing in our children, the things you tell your children about kindness and believing they can be safe and how they're supposed to treat each other and how they're supposed to respect distinctions and all the things that you want kept special for your kids,

none of us practice in adult life. And I think that that's exactly what you're getting into with what you call a soul boom. Now we get to the boom part, which we touched on a little bit earlier. And I don't want people to misunderstand something you said earlier, because you know how nasty every mofo is these days.

Rain lays out very well in the book that he is not hoping for something apocalyptic or catastrophic to happen, okay? But if you look at American society, the reason he points to 9-11, I have, many others have. Crisis unites us because we have common enemies, we have common fears in that moment. That's what 9-11 was. What really worried me, Rain, is that it didn't happen during the pandemic. And I don't know if it's because the pandemic wasn't bad enough, although we lost millions of people, but we decided to use it as a political football. And that scared me that, wow, this pandemic doesn't have everybody kind of putting down their signs and coming together.

That's spooky. But if you think about it, it's hard to unite when you're not afraid of something. Yeah, that's very well said. There's so many topics you brought up. I'm not sure which one to dive into, but you know what? I feel like since you come from a political family, and by the way, I used to listen to your great father on his late night call-in governor shows back in the day in

the late 80s, which were just fantastic. If people haven't heard those, you could just call the governor and be like, hey, it's Mario Cuomo. And like, yeah, governor, why are there laws against pet ferrets? I want to have a ferret in New York City. And like, yeah, governor, why are there laws against pet ferrets? I want to have a ferret in New York City. And he would go on about, you know, health and safety and, you know, and government ordinance and whatnot. And it was really fantastic. But you come from a political family. You worked on what many people would call a political news network for quite a long time. And one of the great evils, I think, of the contemporary world is partisan politics. So I feel like America has all of these systems in our contemporary culture that are based on the very worst aspects of being a human being.

Competitiveness, backstabbing, one-upsmanship, the seeking of power, every man for himself, to the victor go the spoils, it's a dog-eat-dog world. All of these aspects that are, for lack of a better word, let's call them the more animal side of being a human being, have been put into place in all of the systems that are going on in education and in healthcare. Healthcare is completely about profit. And now you've got, you know, these, you know, companies, investment companies buying healthcare systems and closing down, you know, hospitals and doctor's offices, especially in poor neighborhoods that aren't profitable enough. But one of the greatest kind of evil systems that we've got going right now is partisanship itself. And unfortunately, we have these two sides that believe that the other side is causing the end and the destruction of the United States. And you can go into great detail on why that has

happened. But that is a natural outcome of creating a system in which the seeking and acquisition of power is the most important aspect of that system. So it was always destined to head to where it is right now. It was always destined to head to a kind of January 6th and probably something worse because the system is created on that foundation. And people talk about like, well, we just need to fix things. If we end gerrymandering, then everything will get better.

If we have another great president like Obama or Ronald Reagan on the right, then everything will get better. If we can only have a super majority in Congress, then everything will get better. If we can only have a super majority in Congress, then everything will get better. But no one is having the discussion of like, hey, wait a second, let's stop. Let's pause. Let's take a deep breath. Let's take 10,000 foot step back and look at America as a country and where we're at right now. And let's look at this system that is fueled by hundreds of millions of

dollars that is completely about the getting and obtaining and seeking of power by any means necessary. And let's question the system itself. So some people right now, I'm going to go on an extended rant, Chris, but some people right now might be rolling their eyes again. And I use an example in the book of my faith that you mentioned before, the Baha'i faith, which has no clergy and is completely democratically elected in its administration. There is, however, in the Baha'i faith, there's no campaigning, there's no funding, there's no money changing hands. And every year, the Baha'is of, let's say, Los Angeles or New York City or Schenectady or wherever you happen to be, get together and prayerfully, with great meditation and reverence,

elect nine people that they find to be best suited to conduct the affairs of that community with selflessness, humility, and spiritual service to others being at the forefront. Those are the qualities that they seek out. No one has a yard sign. No one is saying, hey, vote for me. No one is saying, hey, vote for Bert. There's none of that. It's prayerfully done. And I bring up the idea that There's none of that. It's prayerfully done. And I bring up the idea that couldn't you do something like that, at least on a small scale in the United States? Couldn't you have like a small town in Nebraska where they get sick of partisan politics and

Democrats going at it and Republicans going at it and everyone trying to raise tens of millions of dollars to run stupid ad campaigns on these networks that profit from all of that ad campaign money. So they want to stir the fires of antagonism because they actually get paid more in the doing. And they say, enough of that nonsense. Let's just pick the nine people for our city council that really feel that are going to serve the town the best. And let's do it on a silent ballot way. And when someone is called to serve, they leave their job as a dentist or a police officer

or a bus driver and serve the town. And can we envision slightly a slight change in a system that would allow us to rise above all of this conflict and antagonism but those are some of the ideas that i am trying to dig into and look at these huge political problems and social and economic problems through a little more of a spiritual lens sorry for my long rant. You take it away. No. I'm telling you, I am in a state of mild shock that someone I thought I was going to have a hard time identifying with

because I had a complete misperception of what your component parts would mean. Rain's got a really interesting and eclectic background. You got to look at his parents. And even what he's saying now, you're going to hear Baha'i and think that it's some kind of like crunchy thing that was developed in the hills outside Santa Monica. And that's not true. It started in Persia. The leadership structure is somewhat akin to pure Presbyterian presbyters of having community people who are respected,

but it's done in a quiet way. But you can research it on your own time. I agree with every single thing you just said, and not here. I agree with everything that you just said here and here. And in fact, while I was sitting in the fetal position with a tequila bottle, trying to figure out how I didn't see it coming that I was going to get pushed out at CNN for helping my brother. And I was trying to figure out, like, what does this mean? I've got to find some kind of value in this. I have to turn it into a challenge to grow.

And, you know, because I didn't want to just be consumed by all the, you know, the easy emotions that come with any kind of disappointment or failure. And I designed the new TV show that I do on this new network called News Nation. And it is owned by a massive company called Nextar that owns more television stations anywhere in the country. So it's not like it's starting out in someone's garage. anywhere in the country. So it's not like it's starting out in someone's garage. But the show approaches politics only from the perspective, unless there's an exigent circumstance, there's breaking news or there's process that we got to cover, from the perspective of anti-partisan. I'm not non-partisan. I'm anti-partisan. And the idea that this is a new idea is nonsense.

George Washington in his farewell address laid this out with the help of first Madison and then Hamilton. They were both co-authors of what wound up being his farewell address. And in it, he spent a chunk of time saying, be a nation. One of the reasons I'm not going to serve again is this stuff with the parties. I can't believe we're doing this. You're going to have men of ambition dividing you along lines of advantage and opportunism. And that is exactly where we are.

It's the only place you can get when the sole value is us versus them. If it's rain or me, if those are your choices, sure, it's going to win. But over time, all of that makes the most sense. Oh, no question. Within my own family, you clobber me. But only no matter what has to happen is eventually the straightest path to me beating rain is that rain sucks. It doesn't work as well for me to tell you why I'm better. That's too hard. All I have to do is to play to your self-interest, and your self-interest is going to be fear-based most of the time. So if I paint him as bad, that triggers your fear assessment and you'll go for me as the alternative. And that's where we are in our party politics. So what I do is I encourage people to

leave the parties and we have the term for it as I call them free agents. Be a free agent. Make the game come to you. Don't get played by the game. And I believe that that is huge, but here's why it doesn't happen. What you're asking for and what you see within your faith does happen. It happens in small communities all the time, where they basically, the town council is a rotation of local business people and people who are respected, or where a mayor kind of like goes on rotations of one-year terms. But once money gets into it,

and there's enough diversity in the population to create fear-based us and them, that's when it disappears. And as long as there's so much money in the acquisition and retention of power within a two-party system, you won't change it. And that's so obvious that the men and women in power won't even pass term limits. Everybody says you need a constitutional amendment. You don't need a constitutional amendment for term limits in Congress. They could pass that law tomorrow. They won't do it because it doesn't work for them. And that's why the only way it works is the way you're suggesting it in the book,

not that it's a political book, but is bottom up. The only way it works is if as individuals and then into groupings of people with similar mindsets, we start to create a change in culture. That's the only way it will happen. It won't happen top down because this works great for the people top down. Yeah, yeah, that's so well said. Amen, brother.

I'm completely on the same page as you. Look, no shame in my game. I've been using AG1 for over five years. Why? It works, it's easier, and it's less expensive. That's why. Since 2010, they've been getting their formulations right and tweaking their formulas. Why? Because the science changes, okay? It's not like politics where people decide to believe one thing and no matter what happens with the facts, they never shift. This is the opposite. Oh, prebiotics work with probiotics. But in this way, D works with K and this type of B works with that.

They have the scientists doing it. So I don't need all the bottles. I don't have to spend all the money and I don't have to figure out when to take what and why. More importantly, it's not just the regular list of vitamins. It's the extras, okay? The adaptogens, the prebiotics, the probiotics that support your body's universal needs, gut optimization, immune support, stress management. That's what foundational nutrition is about. And these are the people at AG1 who've been doing the work to get it right. Okay. I tell friends, I tell family, I get no complaints. Okay. If you want

to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1. You get a free one year supply of vitamin D3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs. Okay? That's what happens with your first purchase. So make it. Go to drinkag1.com slash CCP. Drinkag1.com slash CCP. Check it out.

We don't fake the funk here, and here's the real talk. Over 40 years of age, 52% of us experience some kind of ED between the ages of 40 and 70. I know it's taboo, it's embarrassing, but it shouldn't be. Thankfully, we now have HIMS, and it's changing the vibe by providing affordable access to ED treatment, and it's all online. HIMS is changing men's health care. Why? Because it's giving you access to affordable and discreet sexual health treatments. And you do it right from your couch.

HIMS provides access to clinically proven generic alternatives to Viagra or Cialis or whatever. And it's up to like 95% cheaper. And there are options as low as two bucks a dose. HIMS has hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers. So if ED is getting you down, it's time to pick it up. Start your free online visit today at HIMS.com slash CCP. H-I-M-S dot com slash CCP. And you will get personalized ED treatment options. HIMS.com slash CCP.

Prescriptions, you need an online consultation with a healthcare provider and they will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. You see the website, you'll get details

and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, the price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. I have a quote in the book from President John Adams. There is nothing which I dread as much as the division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil

under our constitution. Right? 200 years ago. Yep. In the end of my book, I ended my book i you know i ended my book uh and it and i was finished with my outline i was very feeling very good about it and i realized oh this is a little bit depressing and i need to write another chapter where i give people hope and i and where i present some tools

that people can hang their hat on and turn toward. And you've mentioned some of them just in your conversation right here. So the last chapter of the book is seven pillars for a spiritual revolution. And one of them you just mentioned, which is it's grassroots. And I say, it's grassroots, baby. And conversely, hand in hand with the idea

that change needs to happen at the grassroots, is a section I have called, don't just protest, build something. And this is part of the problem with contemporary culture, is that we are in this mode of protesting injustice. And this especially comes from the political left. And listen, protesting injustice is part of our DNA, and it's very important. The civil rights movement wouldn't have happened without it, right? But you can't stop there. And this is what is happening right now is like, you know, hey, there's this injustice. You know, like the guy, I'm forgetting his name, who was choked on the subway, that it had 40 prior convictions,

that was really a victim of a failed mental health system. And this guy choked him out, which he obviously shouldn't have done. The guy didn't deserve to die, but it's a shit show. And so there's great sturm and drang right now about this guy. And then something will happen and he'll get sentenced or he won't, or the police will promise to make a change or they won't. And then we'll move on and everything will stay the same. Because it's easy to protest. And we're in a culture of protest where you can tweet, you can rant, you can call in radio, you can go on Facebook, you can hold up a sign at a rally, and then you feel like you've done your part. It's much harder to build something.

And that's really hard because then you have to work with people. You have to listen. You have to consult. You have to try and create community. But that's where we need to go in terms of a spiritual revolution. I have a lot more aspects to it than that, but you're 100% right that people keep waiting for some president or congressperson or bill to kind of fix things, and we're slapping Band-Aids on a cancerous system. Right, and we're doing it for the same reason that we get all the different types of cancers that we think about, which is because it's easy. It's easier to oppose. Pop used to say, any jackass can kick down a barn. It takes a good man or woman to build one. And these are not novel concepts. They're easily accessed. They're pretty simple.

They're just hard to do. And it's easier to go negative. When you look at any appraisal of campaigns- And also, I have to say, because you've said this several times, it also polls better. If it didn't poll better, people wouldn't do it. People act out of self-interest, and it's usually fear-generated. When we look at breakdowns for ads, like when my brother was campaigning and he was going to have someone do an ad assessment, ads, like when my brother was campaigning and he was going to have someone do an ad assessment. And a fool like me would say, you know, why isn't there more, I'm Andrew and here's what I'm doing for you. I'm Andrew and this is what I'm about. I'm Andrew. Now, why isn't there more positive development ads, as they call them in that business? And they say, here's why. Look at the

polling. Nine to one ratio of what they offer up as attack ads to personal promotion ads because of their resonance within the voting communities. That voters many times over will quote what's wrong with rain more than what's right with Chris. And that's what we play to. And that's what our politics has become, especially with only two teams. You can't be pro-Jets and pro-Patriots. You're pro-Jets, which means the Patriots suck, and it's become a sport. Which is true, which is 100% true.

The Patriots do suck. I'm a Jets fan. Yeah, the Patriots suck. And the Jets never win. Not anymore. And as a fan of the Jets, I love this thing. Not anymore. Because of Aaron Rodgers?

It's the Aaron Rodgers era it's the aaron rogers era they've got a great defense they've got great receivers they've got some running backs i really believe this is their year just jinxed us to go deep into the playoffs nope right here i'm doing a joe namath right here right now you're wearing legs pantyhose do you remember when he wore those pantyhose i do remember that i'm a seahawks fan but i i we're really off we're really off topic here but any chance i can get to kind of try and diss the patriots i'm going to take it but but here's here's the deal the the deal is is this and people might listening right now i don't even know who your audience is i'm trying to picture like who the hell these people are but but you know, we're talking, why is this, why, what does this

have to do with spirituality? So in the book early on, I talk about two of my favorite seventies TV shows because I have a sense of humor and I like to bring some levity to the situation. There's an amazing TV show called Kung Fu from the mid-70s that was about the Shaolin priest wandering the Old West and fighting racist cowboys and looking for his brother. There's also, I bring up the show Star Trek as another idea of what a spiritual path or journey might be, believe it or not. So Kung Fu to me is the personal spiritual journey. We are all Kwai Chang Kain. We're all Shaolin monks walking a racist, antagonistic, aggressive world, trying to do our best, trying to bring great wisdom and serenity to the proceedings, trying to grow and develop ourselves along our journey. So putting that aside, that's how most people see the spiritual

path. Star Trek, to me, is also a great spiritual lesson because humanity, after a great war, has solved all its problems in Star Trek. Racism has been healed. Sexism has been healed. Income inequality has been healed. And this has allowed humanity to develop its technologies and boldly go and seek out new life and new civilizations and bring humanity's wealth of wisdom and love and courage and positive qualities toward the exploration of the we're trying to build it in the galaxy, right? So people often don't think of the Star Trek path when they think of a spiritual journey. Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i faith that you've referenced a few times, said, all men were created to usher forth an ever-advancing civilization. So it's part of a Baha'i spiritual mission that we have a role to play to usher forth an ever-advancing civilization. So it's part of a Baha'i spiritual mission that we have a role to play to usher forth an ever-advancing civilization, to contribute to public discourse, to building

community, to fighting for social justice, for bringing people together, uniting folk, and moving the ball down the field in terms of humanity becoming more and more wise and more and more arrived as a species, mature as a species. This is part of the spiritual path. That's why I've kind of like gone into this kind of political side of things because we need to, again, put aside the partisanship, think about grassroots community building, and think about this as an exercise in bringing people together, loving one another in the same way that Jesus did, in the same way the Buddha did, in the same way even Muhammad did, and help, again, usher forth an ever-advancing civilization. The audience is seekers, curious people, different than my News Nation audience, although there is a disproportionate number of independent voters compared to most usual cable news viewing. And that's good because independents tend to be, by definition, open and a little bit more reasonable. Also, Rain is not talking about a version of Islam.

That's not what Baha version of Islam. That's not what Bahiism is. And I know you're going to think that, although the Bahiism is. And if you do the research, you'll see actually Islam is one of the nations that came after this religion when it started in what was Persia. But you can do all that research on your own. The point is that a lot of these ideas are ecumenical. And the book is, Soul Boom is the why, which is really important, which should really be very accessible to a lot of us because a lot of you are always saying that you want more focus on the why and what we're about and something deeper. And there's also a lot of how in the book, which is very helpful. The trick is to then look at, well, boy, this all makes so much sense. Why aren't we doing this? We're not doing it because while it can be done, it is hard and we are on a sugar diet in our culture and our politics. And by that, I mean the sugar, the sweetness, the easy rush is the demagoguery, is the fear, is the prejudice. There's a reason that the Greeks didn't give us a

positive opposite for the word demagogue. Why is there no Greek term in political philosophy for one who inspires by positivity and communal strength and love, because it doesn't work as well, because it's easier to do it the other way. And that's why we see what we see in our politics, where you have the left saying, boy, the people on the right are crazy. And they've been helped out by that, by having a poison populist at the head of the Republican Party right now. And the Republicans say, look at how these people are trying to destroy our culture and who and what we are. They're nuts. And sturm und drang would be enough for me. When he used that German phrase, sturm und drang, that shows a level of intellectual curiosity in this book.

That's good enough for me. Sturm und drang, that's great. I thought that that was like, you know, what I saw on a label on one of the shirts that my wife gets me that I don't wear because I'd rather wear this ugly shit. But it means like lightning and thunder is a German phrase. But I think that the intelligence that you put throughout this book and helping people understand the why and the how is very good. My question for you is this,

the heartbreak that may come on this road that you are on. Now you're living it for yourself and for your family. So that's fine. But in terms of, gee, I hope people get this. And I would really love for this to catch on. I think it would be really good for us. Are you prepared for what happens if people reject that and it keeps going the way that it is now,

despite whatever success comes with the book i'm 100 prepared for that this is a this is a shot in the dark this is a a flare gun of hope and love and compassion in a very dark night sky filled with missiles and filled with sturm and Sturm und Drang, as you've quoted. Yeah, it's, again, I feel like the stakes are really high. That's why I needed to write this book. And it's interesting. I just got back from a book tour. I went to like 10 or 12 different cities, including like Ann Arbor, Cedar Rapids, Bellingham, Washington, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I went kind of off the beaten track a little bit. Bellingham, Washington, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I went kind of off the beaten track a little bit. And there is a hunger for these ideas. And I don't have the answers. I'm not. And one of the things I try to do in Soul Boom is I really make sure that I'm not a guru. I'm not especially wise.

I'm well-read. I've suffered a lot. I have some ideas in this regard. I draw on some rich Baha'i spiritual traditions and ideas in the book, but I don't have the answers. I simply have a lot of questions, but these are conversations like the one that we're having right now that people need to be having. And I don't expect the book to create a revolution, but I do expect bringing this idea to the forefront that spiritual questions and concepts need to be looked at, investigated, explored, dived into is crucial for our development,

both on a personal level, again, that Kung Fu level, and on a collective level, the Star Trek Kung Fu level, and on a collective level, the Star Trek level. So I just want to get people, especially young people, young people that are lost, might be suffering from this mental health epidemic, to get them thinking about this stuff and talking about this stuff. Then that's where my win is. What was the most common sticking point in these different communities that you entered in terms of what people thought was keeping them from being more this way, individually or collectively? Well, I feel like the book has touched a nerve where there is a lot of people that are, you know,

they're not, you know, maybe they're in a church, but they're not completely committed to their church, or maybe they're a bit alienated. Maybe they're agnostic. They are hungry for spirituality, and they're hungry for community and love and exploration of the divine and the sacred and the holy in their lives. And there's a hunger there and a longing there in a big segment of the population. And they don't know where to find it or where to go other than the odd podcast here or there. So there was an incredibly positive reaction to the book, which I was, Chris, I didn't know. I spent COVID in my underwear at this desk writing this book because I wasn't working as an actor because not much stuff was getting shot during COVID. And I didn't know what people's reaction were going to be to the guy who played Dwight in The Office writing a book about spirituality.

And, you know, it's been pretty damn positive. but it has been the nuns, the politically independent folks. And the other nuns, that is the largest growing population, is the spiritual but not religious, the people that check none on the survey, none, N-O-N-E-S, they're called nuns. None of the above is what church they belong to. That's the largest growing spiritual denomination in the United States. that's the largest growing spiritual denomination in the united states and they've been drawn to the ideas in the book i've been it's been great so i just i just want to foster a conversation and i'm really glad that you're a part of it it's you know we're in a weird look this everything about this place is weird uh this this country is one of one nobody has a constitutional democratic republic the way we do. Nobody has this kind of diversity and the lack of homogeneity.

I mean, it's called an experiment for a reason. But it is interesting to me how touchy a subject this can be because we've never had fewer people expressing religiousness. You know, I'm a Catholic. That's what I am, or I'm a Presbyterian, or everything that happened from the Protestant Reformation has largely broken down in American society. And yet, people feel if they want power, if they want to be respected, they have to identify with believing in God. And there is something suspicious about what is called ethical culture or ethical humanism, which is where I don't believe that there's any larger intelligence in the world other than mine, but I do believe in some ideas and values and principles that transcend my own existence that

beg for a devotion to something bigger than myself. People don't want to say that because, oh, wait, so you're an atheist? So you're one of those? I often say to people, so here's the proposition. Somebody has a gun to the head of one of your kids, and they say, is there a God? What are you going to say? And, you know, that would be a really hard question for a lot of people to answer that way if the guy, if he doesn't like the answer, is going to shoot your kid. And I think that it sets up a false standard for people who want to adhere to what they think will be accepted and acceptable.

And that's what needs to change. And the question becomes, what is the catalyst for change in a culture that is flying in one direction and is unmoored by anything other than trends? And what is cool one minute is out the next. And what you can say one moment, you can't the next. It shows a desperation, a searching, a reaching. And too often in our collective experience, which is pretty young by most countries' measurement, is crisis, crisis. And how big a crisis would you need? But I do believe that you waging this effort is really, really meaningful. And I think your timing is great. And I love that

you wrote it during the pandemic, because I think a lot of people's head was where yours was during the pandemic. Yeah. The religion question is interesting because a lot of people are like, oh, so you wrote a book for people that are spiritual, but not religious. And I was like, well, no, not really, because I do talk about religion a good amount in the book. For me, I jettisoned my Baha'i faith when I was going through my 20s. I was living in New York City and a struggling theater actor. And I talk about the suffering that I underwent at that time, mental health, anxiety and depression and addiction. And long story short, I won't go into it right now, but I found my way back to the faith of my childhood. And I do feel that one thing that I had done was I threw out the spiritual baby with

the religious bathwater. And I think that's what we've done collectively, that we've jettisoned religion in large part through a majority of the country other than, you know, big chunks of the Bible Belt. And but even there, young people are leaving the church, you know, in record numbers. And for good reason. There's been a lot of corruption. There's, you know, no one wants to hear that they're going to hell if they masturbate or decide to marry a Jewish person or anything like that. No one wants to believe in a scowling, judgmental, patriarchal God, as I call him, Sky Daddy. And there's a lot of reasons why people have abandoned the, you know, organized religion. And people say, I could never

be a part of organized religion. Well, guess what? We've lost a lot in the doing, you know, we've lost a lot in doing that. There are a number of things that an organized religion does give us and have given us. And guess what? Those are kind of the things that we need right now. Now I'm not advocating that everyone run and find the church or mosque or synagogue of your dreams and go join that. That's not necessarily what I'm talking about, but we just need to have this conversation that church gave us transcendence, an idea that we were in service to something greater, that our material life and comfort was less important than a life of service to others and the development of our soul.

It brought us community and a community engaged in service to something larger. Prayer, communal-ness, meditation, song. There's nothing more powerful than people gathering under a roof just singing together about love. It's a very powerful thing. The list goes on and on of what we've lost and that kind of community where you would gather with your neighbor that might have different political views than you in loving convocation is really important. So we just need to be talking about that and investigating it.

So that's why I have a chapter called, Hey Kids, Let's Build the Perfect Religion, where I create soul boom, the religion, kind of with a tongue in cheek. I have no desire to have any religion associated with this book. But to say, let's take the very best aspects of the world's faiths and put them in a soup and, you know, create a religion around it. What would that look like? Just to get, again, young people having this conversation and looking at religion through a new lens. It's a, it's a kind of a tired old lens of like, oh, religion sucks. I want nothing to do with it. It's like, okay, that's a good knee-jerk reaction. I get it. It's very, very well understandably motivated. Now let's talk about what the intersection of religion, spirituality, and community does give us.

I think you're spot on. You get a big amen from me. And look, we all know these realities of what the limitations are, what the potential is. I mean, we know what the problem is with religion. It's not so much the nature of the faith in most cases. It's how it's practiced. And we're in a situation now where when I see a crucifix next to somebody's name on social media, fix next to somebody's name on social media, I am waiting for an ass beating because they tend to be the most judgmental, least WWJD, least Christian people in terms of their animus because they believe that saying what you believe in is more important than living it. And proselytizing is more important than performance. And that's what turned people on religion

as much as anything else, but it did not remove the need for galvanizing virtue and beneficial practices and behaviors. And we talk about it all the time. And what's so interesting is we are consumed with the self-help industry. The self-help industry is booming. Now, there are a couple of

reasons for it. One that's good for you is hunger for a way to be better people and to maximize ourselves. And it's not just about having a six-pack. It's about having a six-pack soul of where there's virtue and there's an idealism and there's a transcendence and there's an aspirational aspect to your life. There's meaning. There's purpose. And the other reason is not so good, which is a uniquely American appetite for the easy, which is the root of everything. Nobody wants hard. Even you using the word suffering.

I suffered. I am consumed with struggle and suffering because to me, it is the great equalizer. Everybody struggles, but we don't like to talk about it. Why? Because it's weakness. And we don't like to talk about it. Why? Because it's going to be compared and someone's going to tell us that we're wrong to feel the way we do, and we hate the rejection of something that is so important to us, so we just rather not talk about it. And we don't discuss how to struggle and how to suffer and how to see it, except in the self-help industry. But even then, people are so desperate for the three rules, for the secret, for the seven habits, for the easy way to get through something when the reality is, and your book's reality is, this is simple, but it's not easy.

It's hard, but everything in our lives and everything that we tell our kids and everything that we want said is that everything that matters in life is hard. Anytime you take the easy route, like even kindness, you know, if there's anything that Jesus's message was supposed to convey to people is it's hard to love mercy. You got to turn your cheek seven times 70, whatever the hell that means in a non-math oriented nation, you know, that you got to let people nail you to a cross because you love everybody else so much that it's going to be okay, even though you're a superhuman. That's a powerful message. That's a hard message. That's why there was only one of them, you know, in Christian reckoning. And we're waiting for a second one. But just because it's hard

doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. And that's something that we accept as a value everywhere else in society. I want to make money, but I want it to be easy. I want to get rich quick scheme. They're very popular, but they also get condemned. I want to be in shape, but I want it to be with a really easy diet

where I can eat bacon and eggs every day. We kind of laugh that off as anything other than a ploy. But when it comes to what matters most, which is our collective destiny, we are kind of turning a blind eye to the fact that this is going to be hard. But you got to do what's hard if you want to get to what's good. That's so well said. And that's folded into the DNA of my book in a number of different ways. And contemporary spiritual thought is all about that. It's consumerist. So I have anxiety.

I feel disconnected. I feel fear. What can I do to feel connected and to soothe my anxiety? Oh, here's an app I can use. I can do cold plunges. I can do a quick three minute meditation. I can read this roomie quote on my Instagram. I can listen to this podcast and then,

ah, I feel relief from the suffering and the anxiety. And now I can just go back to my 50-hour work week, 60-hour work week, try and make tons of money, you know, just go back to my kind of like self-involved life. Now I'm not trying to mock people that are seeking spiritual serenity. We should, you know, it starts,

we have to have a meditation practice, connect with nature, understand mental health tools for our well-being, but we can't stop there. So again, this goes to that other spiritual path. Then we recharge our spiritual batteries in that way so that we can go help others. The Buddha said, go forth with compassion and reduce the suffering of others. It's the same task that Jesus charged his apostles with. Let people know of salvation, of the message of love of the Father. And you're absolutely right. Like, all too many times in contemporary Christian faith, it's, I believe in Christ, therefore I'm saved and I don't need to do any work in my life. But Jesus' brother James said, faith without works is dead. Without works, where are the works?

We have to do the works, which is reducing the suffering of others. There's a number of ways to do that. We've talked about them, some of them, working in the grassroots, working to build something, staying out of partisan politics, which by the way, have a lot to do with those people on Twitter with the little crosses by their names, because everything has become politicized. Vaccines became politicized. Education is politicized. Social media is politicized. It doesn't have to be that way. I don't know that Jesus would approve of being angry and judgmental and conspiratorial. I just don't buy it for a second. But putting that aside, when we go serve others and we take that spiritual impulse that we are spiritual beings having a human experience, then we want to go remind other people of that same fact, serve them, love them.

And in the doing, we recharge our own spiritual batteries, which positive psychologists and social psychologists have pointed to that actually we gain more happiness and wellbeing and fulfillment by being of service to others and putting our own egos aside. And that makes us feel even more fulfilled. And then our capacity becomes larger to go serve

even more. So there's this yin yang dance of spiritual service that we can all engage in. You don't have to be a ruggedly, wildly handsome former sitcom actor to do it. Everyone can be involved in this process to make the world a better place. And you have to be right, and not just about your personal aesthetic assessment, because there is no ancient wisdom, faith, or spiritual or religious reckoning that doesn't agree with you. You can pick whatever you want. You can pick whatever tradition you want, knock yourself out. Every one of them leads back here. You want to go Eastern? Cool. Buddha's real name was Siddhartha. Before that, it meant open to all in service. You know, Buddhists say life is suffering and you're trying to heal the suffering as many as you can.

The Judaism, which is, you know, the oldest within the Judeo-Christian and Islamic ethics or institutions. Tikkun Olam, repair the universe. Yes, yes. Siddhaka is the idea of charity writ large in terms of what are you doing for everybody else? You know, obviously we talked about Christianity. People know Jesus's message, whether they follow it or not. So these are all the oldest ideas. The Stoics said the right, the same thing.

I mean, they were fine with monotheism, but they, they, they, they're virtues. They had four cardinal virtues, um, wisdom, which was, was largely went into not just understanding things, but understanding others, uh, justice, which largely went into not just understanding things, but understanding others. Justice, which was about making sure there's fairness for others. Courage, which was about having the strength of character to do what's right for others. You know, I mean, it's always been all over the place. So then the question that becomes hard, which is why I like the book, which is why I was very anxious to get rain on the show is, but I really need this put into a practice for me. I got to get the why, but I kind of already understand the why I've had it around me my

whole life. The book does that. Soul Boom is a worthy read, but more to me, a worthy practice. Go through the book a little at a time. Don't rush through. If you want to rush through it, fine. But have the discipline to go back. That's the fourth cardinal virtue, by the way, within stoicism is discipline. Okay. And go chapter by chapter because he's done a lot of work for you.

He's done a lot of work and he's made it really appetizing. But go chapter by chapter and try to put it into your life. See if you can put it into practice. See if you can do it a week later when you forget about the chapter. And I think it's a really great guide. And Rain, I'm really happy that I discovered this aspect of you and your offering as a human being, as a father, as a husband, and as an artist. And I really appreciate it. And I think Soul Boom is a great book and I recommend it highly

and I can't wait to finish it. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it, Chris. And it's been a pleasure speaking with you. And yeah, let's start a revolution, baby. I told you, Soul boom, no joke. It's good to have good minds who believe in better grappling with the problems that surround all of us. Isn't it a worthy read and a book I have already given

to multiple people and with good reason. And I will probably read it again. I hope that more than reading it, it resonates and that you think about finding something within yourself to help get you and others around you to a better place. Thank you for subscribing, following, giving News Nation a shot. I'll see you there at eight o'clock and 11 o'clock Eastern.

As soon as you can find it, it'll be great to have you, and I'll see you here again. Don't forget to wear your independence. Get the free agent merch. That is the solution to our political ills. We got to get away from the parties, and it begins with you. See you soon. Take care of yourself, and take care of those you care about.