The Chris Cuomo Project - Ro Khanna on How Democrats Can Win Without Becoming Trump

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

Representative Ro Khanna (D-CA) joins Chris Cuomo to lay out what he believes is the strongest path forward for Democrats—one that centers affordability, health care, wages, and jobs instead of endless outrage over Donald Trump. Khanna explains why letting Affordable Care Act subsidies expire would hurt millions of Americans, how Medicare for All could reduce costs by cutting middlemen and negotiating prices, and why Democrats lose credibility when they campaign against Trump without offering a substantive economic alternative. Cuomo and Khanna debate whether outrage-driven politics actually wins elections, the influence of corporate money and PACs, the decline of unions, and why Democrats risk becoming defined solely in opposition to Trump. They also tackle foreign policy flashpoints—from Venezuela to Gaza—faith and extremism, and what Khanna calls a “new economic patriotism” aimed at restoring the American Dream before the 2026 midterms. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Support our sponsors: Ready to give MASA or Vandy a try? Get 25% off your first order by going to http://masachips.com/CUOMO and using code CUOMO. Go to GetSoul.com and use the code CUOMO. That’s http://GetSoul.com , promo code CUOMO for 30% off. Get $35 off your first box of wild-caught, sustainable seafood—delivered right to your door. Go to: https://www.wildalaskan.com/CUOMO Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You want to know the best case that the Democrats have on health care and for the midterms? I thought so. Chris Cuomo here. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo podcast. Not all Democrats are the same. Who's a real one? Who's got the vision that can actually lead this party back into a leadership position? Not just a majority, but leading the agenda.

Here is a very tricky question. Is going after Trump the way to get you where? you want to be. Representative Rokana has broken through the noise without making a lot of noise. He's everywhere. He's putting it out there. He's burning calories in the media. But he is no flamethrower. Now, is he missing what matters? Is he not doing what Democrats want to be a real one? Or does he see the real way to get the party where it needs to be? Listen to Ro Khanna, and then you tell me. Representative Kana, always a pleasure.

Thank you for taking the opportunity. I'm looking forward to it. Always enjoy coming on. So there's this brinksmanship going on around health care. Now, as you have discussed many times, and I think with a fluency, few do on left and right, is the subsidies should be the easy part, because what we, really need to tackle is why things cost so much, why we need the subsidies in the first place. But we can't even seem to get the easy part done. Do you believe Republicans will allow the subsidies

to expire? It looks that way. I hope not, because it's going to hurt a lot of people in my district and around the country. I have expressed an openness, a willingness to say, let's just get it done for a couple years. Let's negotiate. I'm on the bills with Sam LaCardo, Kevin Colley, Michael Lawler. but they have to be willing to do that. Johnson, what I don't understand is why doesn't just Johnson put up a compromise bill on the floor of the House, force me to vote for it, force Democrats to vote for it? And then if we don't vote for it, he can say we're extreme, but put it up for a vote. What have you been able to figure out, Roe, you're very good at understanding the mindset of the other side to the extent that it's oppositional?

What do they believe is the win for them in getting rid of the subsidies when so many MAGA voters need the subsidies? Well, it's been an obsession of theirs to get rid of the Affordable Care Act since Donald Trump came down on the escalator. I mean, before that, I mean, this was the origins of the Tea Party. So they have voted so many times to repeal these. They have voted so many times against this. And, you know, their view is somehow that it's led to huge costs, which is true that we have a health care system with huge costs, but they're not offering an alternative. I have an alternative. It's called Medicare for All expansion of Medicare.

We can debate the merits of that, but I'm offering an alternative. The question is, what is their alternative? Why does Medicare for all change the cost problems in context, as you well know, a lot of people on Medicare are seeing increases also? They are. The reason it changes the cost construct is, first of all, Medicare is about 2% administrative fees, and you've got 18% administrative fees with private insurance. So there would be a cost savings of about $450 billion a year in the health care system. Second, you'd have Medicare be able to negotiate prices, negotiate those prices down of big pharma or hospital facility

fees. And third, you basically be eliminating a lot of the middlemen front, which are, which are increasing, increasing costs. Now, I'm not pretending that it's going to be free for people. Obviously, you're going to have to pay something. But what I have said is right now, the average family is paying $11,000 a year on premiums and deductibles, and you would be paying far less if you were on Medicare. The idea of it not being free, Bernie Sanders says Medicare for all, he does, but he has also said many times, and there's an echo effect on that flank of the party, I guess we could call it, that it should be free, that it's free in Germany and it's free in other places. Why shouldn't it be free here? What is your answer?

Well, I would say Bernie has actually been intellectually honest, because unlike some others, he says, yes, it's going to be free at the point of care. You don't have to pay premiums. You don't have to pay deductibles. You're not going to have these crazy co-pays. But everyone is going to have to pay some tax. It's not just going to be a tax on the billionaires. If you look at his proposal, you are going to have to pay something in tax. But that is going to be less than what you're currently playing the private insurers

and what you're currently paying for in health care. And to me, that's intellectually honest. I mean, Bernie is offered an intellectually honest plan. There's some people who kind of say, okay, only the billionaires. are going to pay for it and everyone will get health care. And my view is the numbers, very hard to make the numbers add up. And what Bernie's offering is actually a more realistic plan. I agree with you that it is intellectually honest and he is not being deceptive in the structure as he would like it. However, there is an elephant in the room, which is you're not talking about bumping Chris Cuomo

out of the way or not having to deal with News Nation. This is, the biggest, the wealthiest, the most lobbying-sensitive, biggest employer in the country. And we know what their response will be to any pressure. Hey, I hear you guys, you voted on it. Going to have to cut those jobs in your district, Congressman Kana. And boy, oh, boy, we're going to lose a lot of money here that's not going to go to politicians anymore. How do you deal with this beast? Well, it's a real issue. Two issues you point out. One is the issue of jobs. And a lot of people could be employed in administrating Medicare. A lot of people could be employed in having better health care. And we're going to need to expand the rural hospitals. We're going to need to expand actually health care. Right. You get more people into the health care system. We're going to have to expand care. That's going to create a more job. So there absolutely has to be a thought about if someone is currently working at, United Health Care, where do they work and what do they do? And I think that's a very legitimate questions. By the way, before you even get to Medicare for All, if you just did Medicare to

50, which would get a lot of people, that doesn't cost the astronomical transformation as Medicare for All. It's about $50 billion a year, which is about $1.20th of our defense budget. Your second point, though, is the bigger issue, which is these people have a lot of power. They have a lot of money. They have a lot of say. They go after people on television ads. So how do we overcome that? Well, when you've got people like Marjorie Taylor Green now and people in Nagas saying this system is broken, we think it's corrupt.

We don't like the influence of money in politics. I think you have a much better shot than when it was just people in the quote unquote progressive wing saying this. What does it mean to you that, not Rokana, by the way, but Democrats take more of the pack money, which is the worst money in the game, as we know, the legal PAC money that Citizens United ushered in. The Democrats take more than the Republicans do. Is that the case? I didn't know that until this show. By a lot. By a lot, which I was surprised by also, which is why I now know that it's true. Now, it's not, are you worse than they are? That's not my question. It's, is how big a deal is it that you would have to say no to that money and they'd probably threaten to go to the other side if everyone's not a

on the same page. Look, both parties are to blame for big money in politics. What I don't know in those statistics is, are you talking about just corporate PAC money? Are you talking also about labor unions and others? I do make a distinction between that I don't take any PAC money or a lot of money. But to me, there's a huge difference between a working class union supporting someone versus Pfizer supporting someone. 100%.

I agree with you 100%. And I think unions have been given a black, every institution can be abused and unions have had their problems. There's no question. But the idea that we are obviously so much better off without unions, I think that's debatable at best. Well, you would certainly agree that the unions are key to building the working in middle. Yes, I'm saying I think the idea that less unions is better for America is a debatable point. I mean, we can debate it, but I don't think we've had great results by destroying unions. Yeah. And my argument would be, look, one of the biggest declines of workers say have been the hollowing out of unions. And by the way, a lot of the union folks didn't vote Democrat, as you know, because they think we're not focused enough on their economics. They think we're not focused enough on their jobs. So I don't say this in a partisan way. But I think the big issue, Chris, is whose side are you on? And the reality is there are a lot of Democrats who also are beholden to this money.

and we run, and this is why it's a tempting thing to run on anti-Trump, because if you say, look, he's doing horrible things, and some of the things he's doing is objectively horrible, you can win potentially without ever having to really question the corporate interests. And isn't that an easier way to win if you can just say, you know, he's totally inappropriate and lacks all character and insulting Rob Reiner? Of course he does. And we should call that out.

and maybe we win an election based on that. But is that going to actually change the life of someone who's getting screwed over because their health care costs are too high? Support for the podcast comes from MASA. I got to tell you, if you care about what you eat, this is a brand you need to get behind. Why? Take a look at a bag of anything that you're eating.

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available on Disney Plus in Canada. You have given us a beautiful segue to the other topic I wanted in this, is what does it take to be a real one on the left these days? And I like having the opportunity to speak to you about this because you are not a flamethrower. You have some aggressive positions, and I've definitely seen you make political populist calculations that I want you to explain to the audience. But the Rob Reiner-Trump thing, how can anybody be surprised? When has he ever been a consular in chief? When has he ever put any interest before his own?

And my point is, if you don't say, like where I'm watching it in real time right now, Trump is the worst, he's disgusting, you know, Don Lemon says, F you to the president and makes fun of the size of his genitals, and he gets all this attention for it. Is that what it takes to be a real one on the left now? Do you have to be absolutely violent in your speech about the president? Do you have to condemn him in the strongest ways all the time? you're not a real one. You're normalizing. Look, I certainly think you get momentarily huge political advantage from being a shadow of Donald Trump, right? If you're the one meming at him, if you're the one ridiculing him, if you're the one going, taking the case to him, you're going to get a bump in the polls, you're going to get more attention. Ironically, you're basically making him the center of the universe, right? You're responding to him. You're in his orbit. What I believe is the Democrats need to say, no, we have a totally different vision. We want to be the party that's going to take this country

forward, that's going to stop the insults, that's going to change the economy. So you just don't have $18 trillion in my district. You've got real economic opportunity and roadmap for families across this country. I call it a new economic patriotism. But that's a harder sell. My view is long-term, that is a better place for Democrats to be for the sheer view that it's an independent position as opposed to being the small sun or the small planet revolving around Donald Trump. I mean, it seems like that's we're in his orbit. And I don't think that's any major political party, any major political candidate. When has a significant figure been defined oppositionally to someone else?

That is a cogent argument. And I agree with you. But it is not the prevailing wisdom right now. Certainly given the social media thunderdome, you know, black hole that our politics has gotten sucked into. I can't tell you. Like so last night talking about the Rob Reiner thing, I said, look, of course, I'm not surprised that this is what he did. Of course he's going to double down. and it would be nice if the most powerful person in the world represented the virtues and the

character that we used to care about in this country, but he'll never be that. That's not what he is. That was unsatisfying, Representative Kana. I was giving Trump a pass. And I understand what they want to hear. They want to hear F you, Mr. President. You're the worst. You're disgusting. They want to hear that. I don't know that it moves the needle with anybody who doesn't hate him already. And it does seem, though, that your party has fallen into that trap, though, Roe, where on social media, they believe that if you're a real one, you're rabid when it comes to Trump. And if you're not, maybe you're not a real one. Well, look, Chris, I may get into trouble for this, but I haven't put on social media or on Twitter or on any of the platforms, anything about Rob Reiner's tragic death

or Trump's comments about it. You know what I did put out, which didn't get as much attention, is why is Trump signing an executive order that is allowing AI to develop without any state regulation? To me, that's the bigger issue, right? You've got all the talk to people who may lose their jobs. You've got all the biggest job for people who don't have a college degree. Men are commercial drivers.

So my view is don't be afraid to criticize him, but criticize him on the substance, criticize him on the China policy, He criticized him on manufacturing jobs, criticize them on the fact that China's trade surplus has gone up and our trade deficit is projected to go up and then say, what are you going to do? Now, look, I would not be in the top people if tomorrow we were to have a national competition of who's the most popular Democrat, because right now what people want is a total humiliation in every way of Donald Trump. And the question is just, is that the itch of the moment, or is that how we're going to define the Democratic Party? I don't not believe that's how we define the Democratic Party. I do not believe that's how you defeat Trumpism.

I believe you defeat Trumpism by hearing people's anger, hearing people why they're upset at the system, and then saying, here is why we have a substantively different vision. Why just building a border wall, just doing terrorists, why that's not going to change life in Warren, Ohio, or Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Here's how we're going to change life. You pick which one you want. I agree with you. And it's weird because I believe you are absolutely well positioned to be part of the not just present, which you are, obviously, but the future of the Democratic Party or a young guy. And I think that you have a lot of growth potential on the national level. But at the same time, you're like the exception to what I see as the rule.

which is Roe Conno will talk to anybody, he'll go anywhere, he'll make his case, you know how to disagree with decency, that ain't getting it done on social media. The people who have the fastest growing followings, you know, AOC, waking up in a hoodie, and being like, hey, here's a few reasons that I think this guy's a, you know, and she sounds like somebody, you know, like who's talking to her college friends. But that's what's popular. And within the podcast community also. I see the people on the left who are starting to wear little tighter t-shirts, even if they're little guys, and kind of talking about how there's a muscularity to what they say, you know, we've got to kick their ass. And it seems to be that the left is becoming like what I remember in the early days of covering MAGA in the 2015s. We're pissed off.

You've forgotten us for the last time. And we're coming at you and it's personal. Well, there is no doubt that right now, if you want to go viral, You have to be the person who has the most outrage against Donald Trump. And, you know, someone said to me, you know, we disagree with Rokano on almost everything is so wrong, but he doesn't hate our guts. And so I'll vote for him just for that. He likes us, even though he's wrong about everything.

I said, that's a low bar. But there is a sense that I think that the sense that I have of two things, which is maybe it's because I grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, I actually think most. people in this country are decent and good. I actually like a lot of people, even if they voted for Donald Trump. These are people I grew up with. These are people I played Little League with. These are people I traded baseball cards with, right? I don't take it out. Oh, they must be evil for voting for him. And I try to approach things with, you know, I have a point of view. I'm for Medicare for all. But just because, Chris, you may not be for it. I don't think you're stupid.

And I don't think you're evil. I think I just have to do a better job making the case. And maybe they're blind spots. I haven't seen like you brought up. Okay, what about the people working at United Delta? What happens to their jobs? You know, well, that's a serious concern. And let's think about it because that's a democratic process. And I think just that basic sense that I love the American people in this country and that I have some kind of humility, you know, that's not the moment we're in. But the question is, is that the moment that we can be in? And I think after we're exhausted, we're embarrassed as a country. And my hope is people are going to say, How do we move forward?

How do we heal? How do we try to find a new national purpose? Yeah, I'm betting on the exhaustion also. I am. Right now, I'm underwater on that wager, and that's okay. But it's frustrating, but it's okay. And my political sense is if the Democrats had a vocabulary of only affordability, inflation, wages, prices, health care costs, you have a huge day in the midterm elections.

But I think that there is a better than even money chance that there will be a cultural distraction near that time. That will be something that is more divisive to the left than it is to the right. Like what? A selective kind of killing. Something that is terroristic in nature would be my guess, or something that plays to a niche fundamentalism within our cultural politics. But how aware are you guys of that? Because I see more and more that your influencers disagree with me and say, let it come. We're going to fight them on that level. And we're going to fight the affordability fight. We are not backing away.

We're not taking the high road. No more high road. There's only one road. And if they want to talk Venezuela, we're all over it. If they want to talk about jihadi versus Zionism, we're all over it. And we're going to fight these fights incrementally every day and still do the affordability. I don't think that works as well. But what do you think?

Well, look, I think with a central case has got to be good jobs in lower cost, the affordability in terms of people can't afford housing, can't afford child care, can't afford to health care, not just grocery prices and day-to-day costs. It's that they can't see themselves getting out of being behind bills for the next decade. You know, it's not just that they go to the grocery store, their electric bills are too high.

This is, they're drowning in a sense of not having the American dream. And the affordability crisis also because they don't have good jobs because they, yeah, they may be employed, but it shouldn't take three jobs or two jobs or a low-paying job to be able to support your family. So that, to be, has to be the central democratic case. Now, I'm not one to back away from my values, and we can get into Venezuela. We can get into guys. I have positions on them.

I talk about them. I talk about them with conviction. But I talk about them with conviction and dialogue and not trying to deemois. people. And I, my view is you can have an economic focus. You can keep for your principles on things. And a lot of it is how you, how you approach the situation. Your, you know, temperament. I mean, it used to say character and character matters. And people often are surprised that I'm one of the more bipartisan members of Congress because I'm also one of the more progressive members of Congress. And it's simply because I don't get into Twitter wars with people on the

other side usually. And I try to give people some grace and benefit of the doubt. And I actually think that matters. Support for the podcast comes from soul. Listen, I keep selling you on this because it works for me. I use, or if you want to say abuse, I don't believe everything is abuse. But when it comes to alcohol, less is more for me. So what do I do for my brain vacation? What do I do when I'm around the holidays? When I want to share a drink with my friends. I'll tell you what I do. I either grab a sole gummy with hemp-derived THC and or CBD or a sole beverage. Why? Because I get the brain relaxation and none of the downside of alcohol. So I'm able to celebrate with a soul wellness drink or gummy just like everybody else. And yet, I'm doing it my way. And I believe in the hemp-derived

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Cuomo and you'll get 30% off. You are supporting not Swalwell or Katie Port. in the California governor's race. You are supporting an outsider who is a businessman who has a more progressive demeanor in terms of disruption. How much heat are you getting for that? Or did you say, well, I had to go outside

because I didn't want to choose among colleagues? You know, I haven't gotten that much heat. I mean, I've got a good relationship with both Eric Swalwell, like Katie Porre. I gave him my heads up. Swalwell, in particular, was pretty gracious about it.

And Steyer, I gave a clear reason of why I supported him. I think you need a disruptor. You need someone who's going to clear up Sacramento. You need someone who is willing to take on PG&E and the utilities, which in my view has been a big, big issue in California. So there have been a lot of other things I've done that have gotten more heat than supporting Thomas. But it's unusual. It's unusual for a California member of Congress. You have two Democratic colleagues who are running.

and you don't pick either of them, especially Katie Porter, who is pitched as exactly what you're saying. Well, look, I think the difference with Katie and me is I do believe I have a sense of job creation and innovation in addition to tackling income inequality. I mean, partly because of the district I represent in Silicon Valley. And I respect her, but I, you know, I just thought Tom Steyer for this time was the right pick for governor. I don't have anything against either Eric or Katie. Are you afraid that there will be ramifications and repercussions down the road within the party

if these people stay in and have positions of power? I'm the one who said that Chuck Schumer should step aside. So I've taken on folks. I guess the thing that I believe in politics is you just got to speak your mind. You've got to be willing to take bets. You've got to be willing to take positions. I actually think it's one thing that Trump had, right? I mean, he would endorse all these people and all these races and all the conventional pundits where, how are you endorsing this person?

And he just said, look, if I end up sticking with people who I like and saying my peace of mind, eventually people will know where I stand. And I, that's, there are a lot of differences with Donald Trump. But my view of one thing that Democrats can learn about it is we don't have to always be so afraid of just taking a stand, taking a position. You mean, you like someone, go endorse them. It's not the end of the world. I mean, we stand at such formality in our politics, and that's not the moment we're in.

Here's a tough one. Extreme Islamism. And by the way, if you don't know, Roe is a brown guy. He is not Muslim. He is not African American. He is Hindu in his. orientation and his upbringing, which happens to be one of the most populated religions on the face of the planet. Anyway, when people talk about this, we have a problem, we have a

sticking point. Extreme Islamism is not being a Muslim. It is a perversion of that faith. It is his own ideology. We don't really have something like it in Christianity. I'm not saying we don't have bad or rogue Christians. Yes, we do. Plenty of them. But this is a specific structure within that faith that is corrosive to the same. This is very hard for people. Either they'll say, man, you don't get it. Muslims are bad. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. Or they will say, you aren't Islamophob because you are condemning people because of their faith, just call them terrorists. But this is a real ideology that spawn not just what we saw in Australia recently, but basically every time Muslims are involved, it's because they have adopted

extreme Islamism as an ideology. How do you explain it to people? How do you draw the distinction between what we are against and what we are not against? Well, I'm a person of faith. My faith is is Hinduism. It's a faith we grew up, even though Hinduism is sort of a pluralistic faith in that we grew up celebrating Christmas. It's still celebrate Christmas. It's a wonderful tradition. And so, but my faith comes from the same teachings that influence Gandhi, which was the bug with Gita. And what does that say? It's so you do your duty. You don't worry about the rewards. You treat other people with respect. You care about the planet. And I have a lot of respect for people of faith. And I think that the party, whether you're a Hindu, Jewish, Christian,

should be more open talking about faith in our political life because most people in this country are people of faith. It's, I think, one of the things that makes us a decent, kind nation. The second thing I would say is, and you and I may disagree on this, is that the problem is when faith becomes extreme and when it becomes extreme, and gets connected with politics and becomes linked with politics is either you are for my faith or you're not an equal. And when you have the combination of an extremism with political power, that is against every principle of democracy and liberal democracy. And so what I would condemn is any movement where you have religion lining up with a political power that is fomenting exclusion and extremism.

And in cases where that's happening in Hinduism, I would condemn that in places happening with Islam, I would condemn that. In Christianity, I condemn that. Now, I don't know if you're arguing that certain religions are more prone to that or not. I certainly am not a religious scholar to be making that kind of a claim. No, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not making that claim. That claim is made about Islam. I personally don't believe it's fair to say that.

Now, there is a lot of evidence that people will bring up to try to defeat me on that point. And I understand the evidence. And I understand that it is compelling evidence. But I disagree. I am someone who studies religions. I've been doing it for 30 years. And you can say basically the same things about the Koran as you can, the Bible, or you can, or any religious or philosophical texts.

And extreme Islamism is different than we do. Certainly not within the Hindu structure. There have been lots of fights that Hindus have brought rightly or wrongly in a very, very long time of the faith. It's the third largest religion in the planet. after Christianity in Islam. But extreme Islamism is something we're contending with on a regular basis. And it is something that is becoming a larger part

of American political debate. And I wonder, what do you do if it comes up around the midterms? If we have a God forbid and people are saying, hey, this country, this doesn't work in this country, we have to reject it. We're seeing more and more of that around the world. How do you handle it here? I thought the time that it was at its peak was after 9-11, right, where you had, in my view,

George W. Bush, who did a very good job on that. I disagreed with it on the war in Iraq. But he said, look, people like, I remember, I think a few days or a week after 9-11, there's President Bush at a Muslim gathering, at a mosque, at an ifthar dinner, or some dinner where he was saying, if you're Muslim American, you have a Muslim-American, and you have as much a place in America. And to me, that was one of his shining moments. And I just believe as a people, are there times where we could succumb to bigotry? Absolutely.

But by and large, we give people the benefit of the doubt. I mean, look at the case in Australia, the horrific terrorist attack of which was clear rank anti-Semitism. I don't know the person's faith was the hero, but my assumption is Syrian. He may have been a Muslim faith. who saved all the people there, right? And the Australian president goes to his bedside and says, you're a national hero. Loved it.

And I think that's the capability that we need and not just in Australia, but in America, where we can say there is anti-Semitism, there is these ideologies that need to be confronted, but there are many Muslims and people, Muslim America's Muslim Australians, who actually share a total contempt. for anyone using ideology for violence.

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That's wildelaskin.com slash quomo and you'll get 35% off your first order, all right? Thanks to the Wild Alaskan company for sponsoring this episode. What do you say to Jews and their allies who? who believe that the Democratic Party has moved away from them and towards their enemies, towards an acceptance that they'll, maybe it's called anti-Zionism as opposed to anti-Semitism, but it takes you to the same place.

I can just tell you what I believe and maybe give you a sense of where I think their concerns are coming from. I mean, I believe that we need, of course, Israel is a secure state, as a Jewish democratic state, that you cannot deny the Jewish people's self-determination. And I also believe in Palestinian self-determination, and we need a Palestinian state, non-Hamas, Palestinian state,

in Gaza, West Bank, and Jerusalem, that as a framework of the 1967 borders, that this is where we need to move towards peace. I have been very, very critical of Netanyahu, Ben-Gavir, Smokritch, for the type of government they've had, And that is not the government of Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres and the labor tradition. I believe it is perfectly understandable that many people, after October 7th, said this is the worst attack since the holocaust.

If you want to be pro-Israel, you've got to be with us at this moment. And for many months, I said Israel has a right to self-defense. This is a terrorist attack. Hamas is a terrorist organization. But I found that the way that Yahoo prosecuted that war with that. the man of killing and death and the kind of statements Ben Gavir and Smolkridge were making, things like we can starve the people to get them to surrender, the defense secretary calling them all animals,

that this was a violation of human rights international law. And I would argue the best traditions of Israel and the Jewish faith. And so my view is there's got to be room for someone who believes Israel has a secure right to exist as a Jewish democratic state and is totally opposed to the policy. of Netanyahu. But I think this is where the concern comes from from the Jewish-American community because the Democratic Party has been more critical of the policies than Netanyahu

than the Republican Party. And some people say, well, that means you're not with us at a time of our key fight. And I think that's why that issue exists. Do you think we enter 2026 without there being subsidies for the ACA? Unfortunately, I do. And I think it's horrific. I mean, it's a situation where people are going to get hurt. Politicians are going to be thinking, okay, is this an advantage for Democrats?

Is this advantage for Republicans? And, you know, but the working class and people are going to get hurt. And it's awful. Do you think we enter 2026 with America having a full-on military operation in and around Venezuela? No, because I think the same thing happens is what happened in Iran. There are enough voices here in this country that say we don't want regime-change war. Trump, in my view, listened to some of them. I mean, yes, we went in for one day of strikes on those nuclear facilities, but we did not

get into a war. I don't like us having a regime change pressure on Madero, but Madera is an awful guy. He's not legitimately elected. He's engaged in narco-terrorism. I'm not defending him. I just don't believe that we should be out there trying to effectuate regime change. I think we should be focused here. But I think there are enough voices, even in his own base, that Trump is unlikely to get us

into a full-scale conflict. At least that's my hope. What happens when Maduro does anything in response to what is being done to him? Because you know how the administration will use it immediately. And you know that they are provoking. I mean, we're kind of acting like Iran in this situation right now, to be honest. Usually they do it through proxies. They don't do it themselves. But we keep punching this guy in the nose for obvious reasons. One, he can't do anything about it, right? He can't take us on.

Two, he is a bad socialist, which this administration loves the imagery of that. And drugs are one of the last things that everybody agrees on that are bad in America. And as long as you show drugs, every time you blow up one of their boats, people are okay with the tradeoff between due process and punishment. what happens if Maduro does something and a bomb or a missile or anything lands near, let alone, God forbid, touches an American asset? Well, I mean, the dumbest thing he could do, but I think that's the risk. And we would obviously have to take a proportionate response, but it would be a colossal blunder for us to then get into a full-fledged war with Venezuela.

Look, I agree with your points. Madero is a terrible leader. Madero is a socialist that is ruining the economy of his own country. Madero is guilty of trafficking cocaine through Venezuela and some of it reaching the United States and that basically he's allowed of passage for Colombia and other drug cartels to go there. He is not a good actor. There's a reason the opposition leader got the Nobel Peace Prize. But I think when people are sitting there in my district or in Pennsylvania or in Ohio and they're thinking,

How are my kids going to have a good job with AI? How am I going to get health care? How am I going to pay for my groceries? What am I going to do for child care? Why is the American dream disappearing? They don't want politicians spending all their time worrying about Madero. Like, I just don't think that's what the American people want. I don't think that's what America first meant.

And I think where Trump has gone off base, the criticism of him has got to be, you ran talking about hollowed out America. You ran talking about the forgotten Americans. You actually raised legitimate. points about how we sent all our jobs to China and sent jobs overseas. And you pointed out that there are a lot of people who built this country who weren't getting a fair shake. And you know what? That's why you got two terms. But now you're hanging around with all these tech billionaires and you're talking about Malay in Argentina and you're talking about Madero. And it's sort of like

what happens to all your rallies in Butler, Pennsylvania? Because that's the opening for Democrats. Go to Butler, Pennsylvania. Let's start calling you to folks and saying, you know, we didn't hear you for a bunch of years. We hear you. Here's what we want to do for you. Yeah. And look, the opportunity is there for opposition to this administration because he has become many things that he promised he would not be. He is the most openly transactional and arguably corrupt in terms of what he has allowed. We always say, boy, if this were anybody else, he really is the Teflon Don. But he really has taken down the wall of transactional politics and business with who he's pardoned and what he's allowing and what the bases are for it. So there's certainly opportunity. And Rokana, I appreciate

you making the case. I wanted to feature you as I always do because I believe that you are a great reflection of what the party is capable of. And I wish you well going forward in the best for the holy days. Well, Merry Christmas. Thank you. I always enjoy it. You got fans in my in liberal parts of California, I was stunned, Chris. I was at a Starbucks, and I thought they were going to say, they saw me on MSNBC, they say, I would see you on Cuomo. I said, well, you know, you're growing. Your following is growing.

Well, I'll take it. I'll take whatever I can get. Roe be well, and thank you until the next time. Thank you. Appreciate it. What gets you noticed is not what gets you where you want to be. You tell President Trump, F you're going to go viral. You're going to look strong.

You'll be a real one. Is that going to get you elected? Is that going to create elections? Is that going to create connectivity with the American people? The ones that hate Trump? Yeah. What about everybody else? It's a really interesting, if unsatisfying, quandary because it feels good to voice.

frustration and anger, but is that the way to get to a better place? Not meaning nicer, but more powerful. A lot of food for thought in this interview, certainly for me, and I hope so for you. Thank you very much for being a critical thinker, for being a free agent, for not just being co-opted by fealty to some pack of other angry people. I think you've got to be better than that these days. You can check me out on News Nation 8p. Eastern every weekday night and midnight if you're on the West Coast. Why? Because it's cool to be on at midnight. Now, we just had a schedule change. And if you want the merch to show your independence, to show you're different, to show you're a free agent, to show that you're a critical thinker, you can get it in

the store right now over on TikTok. And the money is used to crowdsource contributions that we can make and feel good about helping people who need the help. I'll see you soon. Let's get after it.