The Chris Cuomo Project - Stephen A. Smith

Episode Date: October 18, 2022

In this week’s episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, sports journalist and commentator Stephen A. Smith (ESPN’s “First Take,” “Know Mercy” podcast) joins Chris for an extended conversation about the differences between discussing sports and politics, his upbringing in Queens and journey into a journalism career, struggling with the loss of one’s family members, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If I'm talking about politics and I got Chris Cuomo on one day and Sean Hannity another, those two individuals are very compelling in and of yourself. But then when you combine that with the fact that I'm talking to you, it's like, what the hell is he talking to them about? Why would he be talking to them? Welcome to another episode of the Chris Cuomo Project. It's great to see you. Keep spreading the word. Subscribe, follow. Don't forget the free agent key. Here it is on the back. Are you free? Why? First of all, free agent, open mind, open heart, willing to listen even when you disagree. And the question, are you free, is because a lot of us are tied to feelings and attachments

and confirmation bias that we have to examine. And it's not that Democrats are bad. It's not that Republicans are bad. It's not that they're both the same and equally a problem in all situations, but it's that this system isn't working and we need to be free thinkers and think of ourselves again as part of a nation

and not a team or tribe. I want you to buy the merch the same way I do. So stop asking me for free stuff because the money we're going to put together in a pool and we're going to give away to people and causes that matter. Now, I've already made now two decisions for us that are just coming out of my pocket. So please buy this stuff so we have more money to give. Now, the reason I want to talk about understanding how to be different and to be expansive in your thinking is because our guest today is doing just that.

Stephen A. Smith. You know who he is. Big name in sports. First take has been number one forever. He has a gazillion views every time he says anything. He is intentionally and cleverly provocative. But now he's expanding. He has his own podcast called No Mercy, K-N-O-W,

where instead of just being provocative, he's being evocative. He's making you think and feel about things that have nothing to do with sport, but everything with getting better. How about taking a listen and a look at Stephen A. Smith? Support for the Chris Cuomo Project comes from PrizePix.

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Thank you. Appreciate it, buddy. Thanks so much, man. You've had many gifts given to you in your life. Yeah. And now you're doing something that, as a friend, I'd say, why are you doing that? Why do you want to expand into a discussion of knowing mercy, K-N-O-W, mercy. I'm jealous of that name.

I said that when you came on. Why would you want to take a career where the controversy that comes your way, you court, right? In sports, you're a master. Why start expanding into a world that is really ugly, that is really divided, really vicious? Not Jets, Patriots, but people who see themselves as enemies of one another. Why do you want to go there? Because I care. And doing sports the way that I do it and the fact that I have the audience that I have, you start realizing that what are you running from this stuff from? Because you can't anyway. that what are you running from this stuff from?

Because you can't anyway. Because so much stuff has invaded the world of sports and it's touched beyond those parameters per se that you find yourself discussing those issues when you're supposed to just be a sports reporter. I can give you Trayvon Martin. I can give you Castile in Minneapolis, in Minnesota. I can give you the whole Colin Kaepernick controversy and how that was politicized and ultimately hijacked. I can give you a plethora of things that have transcended the world of sports, invaded it, and forced sports pundits like myself to touch on issues to the point where we're walking the streets and they're treating me like I'm Chris Cuomo.

That's terrible. I don't think so. But it's like this. They either agree or they disagree with you. And so even though my expertise involves a game, people use it to touch on other issues. It's no longer about the X's and O's. Because remember something about sports that I believe, and you would know better than me in terms of as it pertains to politics, but I believe this to be true. When it comes to sports, there is no such thing as an expert in these people's eyes, unless you're an insider. Can you tell me who's getting traded? Can you tell me what they're saying the reason is as to why they've gotten traded, why they've gotten cut, why they've gotten suspended or anything like that. But when it comes to the actual X's and O's watching the game itself, you can't tell a sports

fan anything. They think they know. All they want to hear is whether or not you agree with them and why. Although a lot of people might feel that way about issues and particularly political issues that permeate our society, they're not experts. They don't truly, truly know. And at their heart, at their core, they might have the ingrained belief, they might have an ideology, but in the end, they don't really know unless they watch people who report on it

and talk to people who are involved in it. They don't know. And so for me, I look at it from the standpoint, discuss these issues, give them your perspective. Just don't act like you know something you don't know. I have no problem telling somebody to go point. And I think that because I have that kind of connection with such a large audience. I mean, they're talking about over the last several years per year. I've been seen on YouTube alone by over one point five billion people on average. So I'm like, these people are watching me. OK, fine. Then be responsible enough to

try and make a difference. And that's why I do it. Do you think it will translate? Because our interest in sports, not only is it in some ways culturally more ingrained than our politics, no matter how heavy the issues, but it's a release. It's a relief. Even though you can get angry, hate your team, hate what you say, hate this guy, hate that one. But it's different than how they feel about political animus. Do you think it translates? I think to some degree it does. And the reason why is because, let's say, for example, your Jets just won a game, okay? And we're excited. 40 points.

There you go. There you go. Just saying. Hold on to it. Don't know who my congressman is, but I know they scored 40. Exactly, right? So you do that, right? And by Tuesday, okay, what else is going on? And so in that moment, you're talking about something. It might be something like just breaking news this week, Daniel Snyder and the Washington football team and some of the trouble he's allegedly in and how he's got dirt on NFL owners and potentially the commissioner and how he's going to fight tooth and nail to hold on to his football franchise.

Draymond Green getting suspended by the Golden, you know, not really suspended, took some time off because he got into a fight with a teammate in Jordan Poole and how that's ravaged the Warriors organization. These are things that didn't have anything to do per se with the X's and O's of a football or a basketball game. But people want to hear about that. So what happens? Now we're getting into a conversation. Well, if you're Daniel Snyder, what do you mean you got dirt on the owners? What dirt? What kind of things have they been doing? What's been going on? We're thinking about the Ray Rice controversy from years ago. We're thinking about Deshaun Watson recently. You're thinking about stuff that's transpired, that transcended beyond the field of play. If you're in the basket, you're talking about basketball. Okay. What's going to happen? Is he going to get traded?

What's going on within the organization? What kind of stuff has been percolating on NBA franchises? Is this occurrence normal? Does it happen all the time? What are the kind of things we're talking about? So people are interested in just the X's and O's. And in that moment that you're talking to them about those things, it puts a thought in their head. And because you have different opinions and people who are articulating a message about recognizing one of the things that I said, for example, is when I said, be careful. Because, again, you have a situation where Devontae Adams for the Las Vegas Raiders pushed an equipment man, a camera person or whatever. The guy went straight to the police.

He got up fine, looked just fine. But hours later, we heard he was at the police department and he's filed charges and Devontae Adams is going to have to appear in court. It's a money play. Well, if you have money and everybody knows you money, you're a target. So that's a money play. Well, if you have money and everybody knows you money, you're a target. So that's a bigger message. Now that person was just watching the football game, but because he was watching the football game and he saw what transpired and then he's watching first take or another show, it's now like, okay, I hear that loud and clear. So when you go out in the streets, you got that kind of thought in your head And that's how you help change take place. So no mercy, K-N-O-W mercy.

But in politics, there is no mercy. It is a blood sport, Thunderdome. So how do you get people to even listen? It's hard enough. But to care enough to forgive. It's interesting that you ask that question because you've been doing television and you've been reporting for years. So have I. I started off as a high school reporter, became a college writer, and ultimately ended up being a pro beat writer for the Philadelphia Choir for

years. And I woke up every morning and the number one objective was, what can I write about and what can I report on and what can I talk about that people are most interested in? What would be most compelling? We're the pros at that. The politicians think they are, but they're not necessarily so. How many times have we seen politicians and they're completely detached from reality? They're focused on what they think their constituents will like and what they know, and they try to focus on that, but they don't have a damn clue a lot of times as to what people really, really want to talk about, what really resonates with folks. And that's why a lot of times they engage in spin and you're looking at

them and saying, do you have any idea how detached and tone deaf you appear to be right now? And I say to you that when I'm talking, my ability to get folks to listen, of course, is going to be a challenge because it's a genre that I haven't really ventured into too much in the past. But I'm thinking about real life issues. And if I'm thinking about real life issues, it's because it's real life to all of us, not me. I don't go in front of a microphone or in front of a camera thinking about what I want to talk about. I think about what the audience most wants me to talk about. And I think about the platform I have available to me, who that demographic is, who that constituency is, and I target them. And so if I believe that

I'm talking to you about what you want to know about, then all of a sudden, it'll show itself in the numbers. If I'm doing a podcast and I got LL, Cool J, the hip hop community is going to listen. I got Snoop Dogg, the hip hop community is going to listen. I got Dana White, UFC community is going to listen. But also the sports community is going to listen because he's a very compelling figure in the world of sports. If I'm talking about politics and I got Chris Cuomo on one day and Sean Hannity another, first of all, those two individuals are very compelling in and of yourself. But then when you combine that with the fact that I'm talking to you, it's like, what the hell is he talking to them about? Why would he be talking to them? That alone sparks an interest. It's like, wait a minute, what the hell is going on?

And then all of a sudden I look at the numbers and the numbers show that that is exactly the case because people gravitated to that kind of stuff because they were interested in hearing what in God's name would I be conversing with you guys about. All of those things play a role. And then you hear what you hear. You make sure that these people have something to say based on the questions that you ask. You're an absolute pro at it. Exceptional. You've done it for years where you're talking to somebody.

You ever had one of those guests and you looked at them and you're like, I gotta spice this up, because they're boring as hell. I mean, I gotta make sure I ask some pointed questions. I gotta ask some compelling stuff to peel something out of them for my viewer. That's how you gotta think about it. I think that you're right in the fundamental idea that you have to figure out what's going to connect to the audience interest. In the fundamental idea that you have to figure out what's going to connect to the audience interest. Where it gets tricky is you move past the what. What is that thing? And now you have to struggle with the how and the why.

For instance, the Parkland shooter. Yes. Was sentenced. The final sentence is held off. You didn't get the death penalty. Okay. Right. So now what do you do with that?

I'm thinking about it for my show. Should he have been given the death penalty? That's one. There is disappointment. Yes. Okay. And then there is the death does not, you know, get justice by begetting more death. That's right. It is a very hard conversation.

It's a very unsatisfying conversation. The death penalty is really, at the end of the day, a social instruction. It's really not a legal issue. Of course, you have cruel and unusual punishment issues and jurisprudence around it, but you can find a way to not make it cruel and unusual. I don't know why we mess. But you can find a way to not make it cruel and unusual. I don't know why we mess. Well, there's a bias against bullets in the case law.

But really, there's no easier way to kill somebody than to just put some lead in them. That's right. But we've moved away from that. But in discussing something like that, he doesn't get the death penalty. What do you say? Well, first of all, you do debate whether or not the death penalty was warranted. You do debate the whole issue of the death penalty being in existence because you have some people who are diametrically opposed to it totally. But then that ultimately transitions you to the issue of crime and punishment? And is it really to our satisfaction,

particularly in this day and age? Because even though what he did was far more heinous than a lot of things that we could point to as it pertains to the issues of crime, you and I both know that people, when they have a complaint about an issue, they tend to lump everything into the same bowl. You see, you see these people on the streets. This guy assaulted this person and they're in and out of jail. They didn't even have to pay bail. What's going on with our country? What has happened?

This is the kind of mentality people will gravitate towards, even though that particular instance had nothing to do with something that happened. instance had nothing to do with something that happened on the streets of New York City, near a subway station, where somebody got assaulted, but there clearly was not murder involved. People conflate these issues all the time. And when you know that about an audience, you pay attention to it. And even if it's to discuss it just to educate folks and teach them how to separate one from the other. The important point was, is that you touched on something that was in their mind, that was on their mind, that was in their heart and soul. And when you tug on those things, you got interest. And when you have that interest, then all of a sudden people are going to listen to you when

you least expect it. My concern for you is because I like you. Thank you. Same feelings. It is different when you upset somebody about the state of politics than when you do it with the state of play. That's true. Their feelings are rooted in an animus that is different. You know, even if they are big Cowboys fans right and you're just hating on that's right that's right it's different than hey listen i don't think you should feel this way about this diversity issue yeah because and this is what i my 25 years in this business has taught me you hating my team or hating on my team pisses me off. It makes me angry. It hurts my ego.

It does not scare me. I am not afraid by your point of view. At the end of the day, it's a game. The game's going to be played. They're going to win or lose. My life is going to go on. Politics, especially the way it's been going on recently, is a fear dynamic. So it's not just that Stephen A

is saying something I don't agree with. It's not even that I don't like it. You are threatening me because what you're saying, I believe, makes me less safe. About guns. I'm going to get killed now. I'm not going to be able to protect me

because of what you're saying. Death penalty. So now people are going to be more likely to do this because I can't kill them. I can't. And it is a very strong psychological pull that defeats the rational. At times, yes. But I'm not scared, man. I'm just not.

I trust my rationale. I trust my willingness to be reasonable. I know there's some assholes out here in this real world. I know there's some crooks, there's some hardcore criminals in this real world. I know that at any given moment, you can encounter all of that. But not to borrow off an old cliche, to whom much is given, much is required. And when I view the position that I'm in, I didn't ask to be in this position. I never expected it. But when they tell you you reach a minimum of 1.5 billion people and when you've had the number one show for 11 straight years

and you dreamed of being able to make a million dollars one day, and now that's just not a problem. And it's because of your voice and your ability to resonate with people. You do get to a point where, yeah, the fun and games are fun and games and it's great. But is that all you want to be about? You want to make a difference. You want to make a difference. And so, you know, you talk about honesty all the time. Just be honest. Stop lying. You know, it drives you crazy when people try to come on your show and they tell you a lie and I don't blame you because, you know, it can piss you off.

But for me, I want people to know that's why I'm not shy about saying, I don't know. Based on the evidence that has been given, this is how I feel. If you think I'm wrong, tell me why. Let's have that discussion and stop being a punk and thinking that just because you feel that way, you want to hate on somebody who feels differently and you want to inflict violence upon them. Excuse me, if your argument is sound and you've got a foundation upon which it can sit on, then why can't you just state what your case is instead of wanting to threaten somebody just because they feel differently than you? This is America. And last time I checked, it ain't just about freedom of speech. It's about freedom of thought.

Now, you've got to be responsible enough and caring enough not to want to create such a divide that you're willing to allow harm to come to others just because they think differently than you. I'm not that guy. I want people to know you could come in my face and think totally different than me, and it's okay. Are you willing to justify it? Let's have a conversation. There's a mercy in that. There's a mercy in that. You and I grew up in the same place. You grew up in Hollis proper. I grew up in Hollis Wood, 197th Street Hillside, up the hill. I was on 203rd, yeah. What did it mean for you to this day to be from Hollis, Queens?

How does it inform how you see the world? Well, it has a lot to do with it because, but it wasn't just Hollis. It's like, yeah, I'm a black man. I was a black kid. I was growing up in the streets of Hollis. It was poor. It was lower class. The outside, we weren't into projects. But the outside, it wasn't indicative of what was on the inside. The holes in the roof. No heat in the house. Sitting by the stove and the stove is open and you got to sit there just to get some heat. There's no food because we could barely, you know, we couldn't afford any food and stuff like that. We want government cheese and bread, rats and roaches running around and stuff like that. You grow up with all of that. You have those experiences. So you know how to do without.

You know how to survive. You know how to scratch and claw. In that regard, it was incredibly helpful. What isn't helpful is when you're segregated and isolated in terms of not having white folks around you if you're Black, not having Latino folks around you if you're Black, because you're not exposed enough. So it's us and it's them. And that divide, when you have politicians and people in the public that want to manipulate folks so they can peel from folks what they can and then leave you your own devices once they get what they want, to encourage that divide, that's when it becomes even more problematic. Because you were a victim of it. Exactly. And so the thing about it for me, where I was blessed in a way that I don't believe a lot of black folks are, is that my grandmother was white. My mother's from a mixed marriage.

And so, yeah, I was taught what racism is through the streets, through what I saw, whatever. My mother and father never brought up race. Ever. what I saw, whatever, my mother and father never brought up race, ever. It was my white grandmother who told me what white races to watch out for. And she taught me to compartmentalize. Even though she was in St. Thomas Virgin Islands, I would go out there twice a year. Once I became like 10 years old, 11 years old, stuff like that. And we talked all the time over the phone. She, no one loved me more. And my mother loved me a lot. But my grandmama, I mean, nobody loved me more than her, Chris.

And she would literally say, this is how some white folks are. But this is how you can tell the difference between the two. And it hearkened me back to Martin Luther King, content of character, not color of skin, what we were aspiring for as black people. But I also took it and learned to apply it to my thinking towards white people. I didn't look at white people and think that they were racist just because they were white. I'm like, no, he's pretty cool. You know, I had a guy in high school. I went to Thomas Edison Vocational Technical High School in Queens, New York. I haven't seen this guy since high school.

His name was Nolan. I keep forgetting his last name, but his first name was Nolan. He was my classmate in electrical installation. And he was this dude. He was a white dude, could fight his ass off, was ready to beat anybody down all the time, right? Nobody messed with him. So much so he couldn't find a fight to get into. And you know what fights he would get into? Anybody that messed with me. Anybody that messed with me. He was like, I could ball. I was in class. I was a good dude. I wasn't this black dude that walked around thinking that every white dude was racist. And he loved me.

Anybody that messed with me, he was ready to bust their ass, excuse my language, instantly. And when you got that kind of experience, it's like, yeah. It's interesting how you were able to collect experiences and add them. Because before you were the man in high school, and that's another thing. You're one of the few guys in your business, I know, who does not talk about being a player very often no because i wasn't good enough you went to college on a scholarship i did i did i could go winston state i went to winston-salem state but before that i was at fashion institute of technology everybody was teasing me about that because the junior college used to tease me like what the hell did you make

it so that's right but it was funny because we were 35 and 4 in junior college. And the funny part about it is the basketball team, we were pretty much, I can't say only, of course, there are exceptions. But for the most part, we were the heterosexual dudes at the school. Guys only made up like 5% of the school populace. And the rest of most of them were gay. Because it was the fashion institute technology. And so they used to laugh at us, but we were like, all the girls are coming this way you were in a good position but you know it's interesting though you know you don't you don't talk a lot about being a ball player you were a

college ball player when you were a kid yeah you had today what they would have identified like that yes as issues with reading and processing yes back then you were just a target exactly and you understand that experience too. Yeah. You were a big man on campus. Yeah. You know, you're the biggest sound in the room, in the business. You know what it's like to have people come at you.

No question. How do you keep that inside you, how it was as a kid to be able to have to deal with people coming at you? Everybody uses whatever they can as different sources of motivation. I'm in the fourth grade. I get left back with a first grade reading level. Donald Miller, Mark McKnight, Willie Johnson, Marshall Lewis, Bobby Williams,

Rasheed Williams, Cardell Brooks. I can give you names of everybody that laughed at me. And this was over 40 years ago. It was Tony Johnson, Billy Johnson, Stevie Miller, Fonzie. I mean, everybody, everybody. I remember everybody's face and everybody's name at that moment. You come to me and I met somebody a year ago, two years ago years ago 10 years ago 15 years ago i see their face but i might not remember their names because i'm not great with names i remember the names and faces of every single person what did it mean to what you thought about

yourself i was defeated um i thought i was dumb um i thought i would never make anything of myself. I was ashamed, embarrassed. And I talk about this in my book that's coming out in January. My father, no belief in me whatsoever, basically tried to encourage my mother to give up on me. My mother wasn't having it. She was not having it. My older sister, Linda, who was an educator at the time, she, along with one of my best friend's big brothers, his name was Tiver, and my sister's name was Linda, separately, without even knowing each other that well, they would teach me how to read and write. And that's why when I ultimately

became a journalist, my mother was so proud. It wasn't that I was just this loyal Biden citizen that didn't go to jail and I was making an honest living. It was like, it was what I was making a living in. The very thing that was my Achilles heel is what I was now doing as a profession. Did your father validate it? Never.

He was just hard. Yeah. I think the better word is indifferent. He just, he cared about him. The Chris Cuomo Project is supported by Cozy Earth. Why? Because I like their sheets. That's why.

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product and subscription plan. The role of loss is always important. I lost my father. You lost both your parents, but you lost your mother, who was a hub for you. Yes, she was. You lost a brother at a time when you weren't supposed to. A car accident, he wasn't supposed to go. What does that do inside you as part of your process of relating to people and situations? Well, first of all, I value brotherhood when it comes to men. I can see a Chris Cuomo. I could see a whole bunch of friends that I have,

people that I've been fortunate and blessed enough to get to know in my adult life. The brotherhood that I have with the Omega Psi Phi fraternity that I became a part of in 2012. The word brotherhood is very, very important to me because what it says to me is I got you no matter what. I might chastise you. I might tell you you're wrong. I might tell you what you need to change. And I'm good with all of that. As long as you got me. It matters.

Because my brother always had me. It didn't matter what anybody said. Didn't matter what anybody thought. It didn't matter what he felt in the moment. He needed to say to me to up my game. It always came from a place of, it don't matter what I say, how hard I see right now, you will never stay in the abyss

that you may ultimately fall into as long as I'm around, because I won't let you. And when I say to people, my brother, how you doing? That's my way of saying to them, that's exactly what I'll do for you. It doesn't mean I'm going to agree with you.

It doesn't mean I'm not going to chastise you if I think you're wrong, but I got you. That's what my brother meant to me. And he meant that way to me, not just as a brother, but as a father figure, because he was more of a father figure to me than my father. In the case of my mother, it's a different emotion. I'm a dad, I'm an uncle, I'm a little brother to four older sisters, I'm all of those things, but I've never'm a dad. I'm an uncle. I'm a little brother to four older sisters. I'm all of those things. But I've never been a husband. I never wanted to get married until later on in life because I was dedicated to my career and I was traveling on the road so much. And I knew there was no way I was going to honor marital vows. Being on the road 200 plus days out of the year. It just wasn't going to happen. But when it came to my mother,

I never cared, Chris, until she passed. And I'll never forget it as long as I live. My mother passes away in June 1st, 2017. Her funeral is a few days later. It's on a Tuesday. It's the night before, it's the day before game three.

And she died night of game, night before game one of the NBA finals. This is approaching game three. It was a Tuesday. And we're in the funeral home. And then we go through all of that stuff. And everybody looked at me and they, of course course I was profoundly sad to have lost her. Did you know that you were going to lose her? Was she sick? Yes. She had been battling cancer for about eight years. But here's where it hit me.

At this moment, I'm just by myself, man. I'm driving. It's there. We buried her. And I said, oh my goodness, the woman that I loved most in the world, that I knew loved me unconditionally, no matter what, is gone. What am I going to do now? And I say that as a single person. As somebody that's married, I'm speculating, but I think I'm speculating accurately. You can have a parent, you can be loved by your parents, but they're passing the baton to your wife. That's the person that's got you. Ride or die. You know, ride or die. You see what I'm saying? There are no questions. And that's why you walk down that aisle. That was mom. And I never thought about it being the void, a gap in my life until that day. And when that day happened, I was like this,

I'm all alone. And I never, ever, ever felt more lonely in my life than the day I buried her. What did you do with that? I pulled over on the side of the road near Hollis and I just cried. And I just stayed away. My sister, Samantra, she was around. My sisters were around. They go in my life. And I cried. And then I remembered what she had said to me. She was lying in bed.

It was a few weeks before she died. And it was a few weeks before she died. Because the last day she was transitioning. She was just looking with this blank stare. She didn't go in this pain. I never experienced nothing like that before. I never saw it. But days before that, weeks before that, I'm sorry.

She had looked at me and she said, what you looking so sad for? She said, this is how it's supposed to be. If you love me, and I know you do, you won't be. I respect the fact that you're being sad. I get that. Thank you. I love you and I'll miss you too. She said, but this is how it's supposed to be. Because if you love me, you don't wish for the alternative. You don't wish for you to be the one that's about to leave. And I'm the one that has to stay and go on with life without you. Parents are supposed to go first, not your children. And I held on to that. And I held on to it because, Chris, I have told that story to every single man that has come up to me and has lamented the pain that they're in because their parents are gone.

I've told that to every man. You know, the Islanders, where you're from, where your grandmother's from, they say a boy doesn't become a man until he loses his father. But it's obviously a transferable property that it's not until they're gone. Yeah. And I think your mother did a great job.

Thank you. Not on you. I'm saying in that moment of this is the way it's supposed to be. Right. Very often we're not prepared by the people we're afraid of losing for their loss. Right. My father didn't get a chance to do that. My father's passing was terrible because all he was about, you know, he was a ball player. You know, he played for the Pirates in the farm. He was a great basketball player. He played to his seventies, but he was not about the physical, oddly, even though he had been a pro athlete, he was all about his mind, all about his mind. Yeah. And he lost his mind. And it was even worse than Alzheimer's where he was all about his mind right all about his mind yeah and he lost his mind

and it was even worse than alzheimer's where he was like somewhere else he was there knowing that he was losing his mind it was very painful for us wow so he didn't get a chance to do that kind of transitioning uh as you said yeah and you know people think i'm making this up when i say this and i always i laugh've learned long ago, there's very little you can convince people of about you. You know, they're going to take what they want. They think you're better than you are. They think you're worse than you are. Right. My father was very worried about the family staying together. Mm-hmm. I've only known love in the extreme because my family has been put into such extreme circumstances. Right.

And it's unnatural. So my family's all about hard times because you are bathed in extremes, in tragedy. Right. And so we've always had to be like that. That's why it's been a little bit unusual for me. And look, I understand my own situation in a way that a lot of people don't. I get why the big J journalists aren't able to see the fine line distinction between my transparency with my audience, the cooperation of my bosses, and my commitment to my family.

Right. I get it. I get why this big shot journalist who interviewed me said, well, I wouldn't help my brother. It's ridiculous. But go ahead. I get it on the written test. Right. Of what are you supposed to do in this case?

Yeah, right. I don't know any other way. And I applaud you for that. Look, it's always nice to have somebody appreciate anything. It was never a choice for me. I never thought, hmm, should I help my brother? That's all he had ever done for me. All. I had a guy, this nut who lived down the street from us, throw a pitchfork at my head, just missed me, grazed the side of my head i made my mother late she was going to something for the american cancer society she was screaming my name and i came running up the street and i was holding my head like this being known as a prodigious liar even young in my life she was of course suspicious and

i was like he threw a pitchfork at my head that's why and she was like yeah i'll he threw a pitchfork at my head. That's why. And she was like, yeah, I'll give you a pitchfork in the head. And I moved my hand and she saw the blood. She went down. Andrew created order. Damn right. Out of that. And he always has. Yes.

And it's interesting when you talk about your brother saying, I got you. you the only time my brother's ever been harsh in correction with me is when he sees me acting in a way that doesn't recognize what i had done wrong in the past right because he doesn't say it to me in the moment right i never talked to him right about what was what wasn't i knew the facts as they lay before me i knew what he had been saying that's it it. Yeah. And it's a very unusual bond. It's a very unusual bond because so much of love in life is conditional. Yeah. And it's an interesting thing to have in your life. Yeah. Where you would not be able to convince me that, well, in this scenario, your sister Madeline, your sister Marjorie,

your sister Maria, you know, big boy, they're not going to be there. Yeah. I can't imagine that. I can imagine it in good times. I can imagine it today. Yeah.

That, you know, they don't like what I did. They don't like what this is. Whatever it is. But if I were in trouble, and that's because we had to learn that because there was so much trouble. Well, let me say this.

I don't mean like, you know, there were criminals or something but there was a lot of antagonism. I got you. Let me speak very, very candidly. Not just about myself but about you and your family on this podcast.

My mother and father, it was never an option to vote for anyone other than Mario Cuomo. Ever. Ever. Because their belief was, when I see him, I believe that he believes. Because again, if you're growing up and you're poor, there's a rat race, man. And this is why honesty is so important. This is why so many other elements come into the equation,

because with people that are in the streets scratching and clawing just to make ends meet, they just don't know. They don't have time. They don't have time, and they care about whatever one issue they care about, but they're not watching the big picture. They're not watching everything under the umbrella. So ultimately, inevitably, what it comes down to is finding somebody that you trust. They're either going to do the right thing in what I believe, or there's a perfectly logical explanation as to why they didn't. I might not like it, but I trust them. That was your father.

It was, too, though. It really was. I'm not, you know, when you grow up the way I did and you do what I do, I'm more fair about family than most people are. Because it's just the nature of how I grew up and being a journalist or something. Yeah. But he really did. I believe you.

Believe what he was saying. And he would not change positions on the basis of popularity. That's why he lost the election. Yeah. 1994, he was very popular personally. The economy was in the tank and it was a dominant social issue

that was the death penalty he would not shut up about how forget about that the death penalty isn't administered fairly right which was a big legal issue for him but morally he was like look you can't have a social instruction that death is okay. And a lot of people, a lot of Italian people did not agree with him. Even the Catholic church was sideways on that for a long time. And he would not leave it alone. Not only would he not change his position, he wouldn't shut up about his position and it was beating him. He was the real deal. You didn't have to like all his positions. I didn't like all his positions. I don't even agree with him about the death penalty. My feeling is a society should decide what its social instruction is. And I

felt that he was giving us much too much credit for civility. Yes. I was like, this is the most violent society I've ever been around in my life. Right. And I've been to sub-Saharan Africa. I've been to Central America. It's bad. I've been to Brazil. I've been everywhere. It's bad right now. The Middle East. There's no code when it comes to violence too often in this country. There are plenty of great Americans. I'm generalizing. That's right. But the general ethos is that. He was that. And I was always proud of him for that. I didn't like that he didn't run for president. I didn't like that he didn't take the Supreme Court because he was like, oh, you got that deadly sin, pride. He's like, you got pride.

That's a deadly sin. And I said, well, I just I wanted that for you. I wanted that for the family. I wanted that. And he's like, it's not what it's about. It's not what service is about. And I get it. I get it.

But he was different. Now, I'll tell you who else is different. I am a fan of you. I love the way you use. because I get the game, Stephen. I want you to know that. When I watch you, I have friends who'll be like, Stephen A. And they'll say something about like, oh, he was so loud on this. That guy needs to shut up.

I was like, he got you. I always say that. I say, he got you. Stephen, he got you on that. You know how to provoke, but the reason I wanted you here, and I'm so happy for you in moving forward the way you are, you don't just provoke. You have the ability to evoke, and you're going to make people get into their feels and talk about things on a deeper level to try to create some understanding, and if not, a little bit of a forbearance of animus that we do know as mercy. And I wish you the best with it.

I'm always available. Thank you, my man. Same to you. Good, because I need you a lot more than you need me. Please, I got you. That shouldn't be the case. Let me tell you something. You keep doing what you're doing because we need you.

And listen, I don't always agree with you. I agree with you a lot, but not always. But the fact of the matter is you're desperately needed because you're fair, you're fair and you're fair and you're knowledgeable. And the combination of the two things, we can't get any better as a society if we don't have people in positions of influence who don't have those two components available to them. And you do. And so to me, you've got, there's nobody rooting for you more than me. I can tell you that right now. I appreciate it.

I need it. And I'm trying. Keep doing your thing. I'm trying. Keep doing your thing. Brother, God bless. Thanks a lot, man. And I got you.

I appreciate it. Got you too. My man. Take it easy. A lot of ideas in that man's head and a lot more than sports the podcast is no k-n-o-w mercy it's great having steven a smith don't forget about the chris cuomo project follow subscribe spread the word get that free agent merch. And don't forget, my show is on News Nation, 8 p.m. You can go to the website and find out where to find it on television near you. Please join the family. I'll see you next time.