The Chris Cuomo Project - The Truth Behind The Secret Recordings Shaking The Supreme Court

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Chris Cuomo explores the recent controversy surrounding flags flown by Supreme Court Justice Alito’s wife and the implications of secret recordings involving Alito, Alito’s wife, and Chief Justice John Roberts. He discusses the ethical and political complexities of these recordings, the flawed process of selecting justices, and the broader issues of transparency within the Supreme Court. Cuomo also touches on the roles of other justices, including Clarence Thomas, in the ongoing debate about judicial impartiality and ethics. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Ooh, I'm Chris Cuomo. This is the Chris Cuomo Project. This is a very interesting topic because I believe the Supreme Court is legit. But the process of picking the justices is fugazi and we need to do better and we see that people are okay with wanting it to do it better everywhere else Except that the Supreme Court an added problem is that guess who polices the Supreme Court? Checks and balances right the government's about checks and balances right who polices the Supreme Court The Supreme Court. Oh, so how are they gonna make changes? I think I see a way through that also So what does this all mean? Justice Alito So how are they going to make changes? I think I see a way through that also. So what does this all mean? Justice Alito. And then you have Clarence Thomas.

Don't they both have to go? Doesn't Judge Eileen Cannon have to go? Doesn't the judge in New York have to go? Don't they all have to recuse? Let's break it all down because people are flooding the zone with bullshit here. Let's start with the basics. When do you recuse? Conflict. Conflict necessitates recusal. What is it to recuse? You step away. Excuse, recuse. Same kind of thing. You get yourself out of the situation. I can't be on this

case. Why? Conflict. What does that mean? Well, either I have an interest. I'm related to one of the parties. I have something to do with the controversy that is before us. Or I have feelings Or I have feelings that make me not impartial. That's Eileen Cannon. That's Judge Mershan in New York. Mershan has a daughter who doesn't like Trump. Eileen Cannon is a Trumper. Now, what's my take? It's all about advantage.

People only give a shit when it's good for their side. They're not about principle. They're just about positioning. They're not about justice. They're about just us. What's good for us? Prove it. Okay.

So, Mershon has a daughter who has political statements, feelings, positions, advocacy, anti-Trump, okay. But it's okay for Clarence Thomas's wife to help out the groups that puts January 6th together, because that's different than him. And it's different than Alito's wife, right, who seems to be some right-wing kook. That doesn't bother you, but Mershon bothers you, right?

Why? Because you give a damn about Trump. That's why. That's all that matters to you. And I bet you care about Eileen Cannon. Well, she's favoring Trump. I mean, she's doing everything she can. Yeah, because you want to get Trump. See it for what it is.

See it for what it is. Now look, I know most of you are looking around like, who's he talking to? I'm an independent. I get Trump. See it for what it is. See it for what it is. Now look, I know most of you are looking around like, who's he talking to? I'm an independent. I get it. I'm just giving you the ammunition to deal with these people who are types, who are on one team or another. Look, should Alito and Clarence Thomas step down from the Supreme Court? No. No. Why? Well, then all of them have to step down and you have to reconstitute the court with people who've been transparent, open, and honest about their political leanings. Because none of them answered the questions. Because the process is a sham. Go back and look what happened when Robert Bork,

very esteemed judge, was put up for the Supreme Court and decided to tell the truth about his political leanings and how he feels about things. He got dinged. Both sides wound up coming to an understanding. No more of that. Now it's just about numbers and politics of inflection in that moment, like McConnell screwing the Democrats out of Merrick Garland, which may have been a good call looking at the way he deals with the DOJ, but I digress. Here's the point. When those men and women come up there now, they don't answer any questions about their

politics. Oh, I can't talk about that. I can only talk about cases and controversies. And I respect story decisis and the court has already decided and that has to have great presidential value. Yeah, until you decide to change it. It's like, this is my favorite shirt. Yeah, until I have a new one.

Oh no, it's a higher bar than that. Is it? They changed Roe as soon as they had a chance. Starry decisis, my eye. It's all preference. Amy Coney Barrett is a conservative Christian. She's anti-reproductive rights. You know it, I know it.

Why not ask her about it? Well, they did. No, they didn't. She never got in there and said, I'm pro-choice and I'm gonna do what I can to make it that way. Or else she shouldn't. She's supposed to be a judge.

Listen, human beings are not objective. She's supposed to be a judge. Listen, human beings are not objective. They're supposed to be fair, especially at that level. Can Alito be fair? Yeah, fair as a Republican. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, fair as a Democrat. That's why she talks shit about Trump. Be open and honest about it. So you know Clarence Thomas is a righty. You know he is. You

know Sotomayor is a lefty. I don't see you hunting her family for associations that prove a political leaning. And now the news. Martha Ann Alito. How did we know that Alito would have a wife named Martha, by the way? Were you really surprised? Like, doesn't it just seem like that's the kind of name that he would have as a wife? You know, I don't know what that means. I don't know why I feel that way, but I do. So she gets secretly taped, legal in DC, one party consent.

She says, I'm gonna get you. You come after me, I'm gonna get you. Not now, I don't know when, but I'm gonna get you. You come after me, I'm gonna get you. Not now. I don't know when, but I'll find a way. Whoo hoo hoo! That's scary talk, man. First of all, it's just talk and it's what people say when they got stung and they want vengeance, but they don't know how. Second, who cares what she says? She's not a justice in the Supreme Court. Yeah, but that's his wife. Really, you married? You think I have the same political ideas as my wife?

You think my wife even knows what my political ideas are? We've been married over 20 years. I'm lucky she still remembers my birthday. The idea that we're like this when it comes to our politics or our positions is naive. In fact, it's insulting. All right, these are different people. Yeah, but Alito must feel

the same way. Then prove it. And even if you did, so what? And let me tell you something else. The lady who taped them and was it legal? Yes. Was it ethical? Hmm. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't like it. I only like secret recordings of people when they're known quantities and hiding it. Does she qualify as that? No, she really hasn't done anything wrong to anybody. She's not in a position of public trust. So I don't know that ethically, this was the right move, but whatever. It was someone else's call to make and they made it. But here's the nice spin on it. Ready?

I think the secret recording did Alito a favor. I think Justice Alito is in better position now than before his wife was recorded. Why? Think about it. What did he say in his letter? It's not me, it's my wife. My wife puts up the flags. My wife's got these political leanings about the flags. I'm not a flag guy. I don't even know what that means. Who's not me, it's my wife. My wife puts up the flags. My wife's got these political leanings about the flags.

I'm not a flag guy. I don't even know what that means. Who's not a flag person? But anyway, again, I digress. Alito said in his letter, it's not me, it's my wife. You now know it's his wife. So the secret recording did him a favor, showed that he's probably telling the truth that he didn't do that shit with the flag, she did.

What's the larger point? The Supreme Court operates on a flawed premise, okay? Now I'm not saying that it doesn't work. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be the highest court in the land. I'm not saying that there's no such thing as justice. I'm not saying that the institution has failed. I don't believe any of that.

I just think we're picking at a reality that has always been there. We've just decided to have beef with it now. And the larger question is whether or not these men and women can be fair. Now look, how do we judge it? Well, these men and women vote with the party that put them in there, the political leanings

of what outcomes they'd want in the cases, so often that you know the names of the ones who don't. Okay? And then yet there are examples that it still stays on the rails. Like what? Well, how about Justice Roberts? Going at it with somebody just recently saying,

this is not a Christian country. I can't tell you how many people get upset at me when I say this. And they'll say, wait a minute, aren't you Christian? I'll say, well, I was raised Catholic and I certainly choose to have faith that there's something bigger than me when I say this. And they'll say, wait a minute, aren't you a Christian? I'll say, well, I was raised Catholic and I certainly choose to have faith that there's something bigger than me

and bigger than us in this reality. And then a third of them will say, oh, you're Catholics or you're not Christian. What? How am I not Christian? You mean I'm not a born again evangelical Christian. Thanks for trying to take over an entire religion, by the way.

So that doesn't wash. And then they'll say the other two thirds, well, let's say half of the other two thirds, I don't want you to do math, but let's just play with the numbers. They'll say, wait, well then, well, why are you saying it's not a Christian country? All the founders were Christian.

Well, that's not true, but even if it were true, so what? Well, I mean, obviously Judeo-Christian ethic, that's what our laws are based on and on the morality of this. Okay, here's what we know about the founding fathers. Were most of them Christian? Yes, of course.

Were they devout? Not so much, more so than today, but it was much more of a posturing society than when it came to your faith. You were seen as odd if you didn't practice it, or at least say you did. Here's what matters most. What matters most is this. These religious men, if you want to call them that, went out of their way. These men bent over backwards. These men spent weeks and months figuring out how to make this a secular nation.

Look for the imposition of God or religion anywhere in the United States Constitution. Look for it. Oh, well, it's in the spirit of all of it. Bullshit. This is something you would make overt if you wanted it to be a Christian nation. Every theocracy does.

Why did they take such pains and go to such lengths and be so deliberate to sanitize that document of religion? Why is the First Amendment first? It's not out of ordering. It was how they, it's a really long and tortured story about how they wound up writing things down in the Bill of Rights, but it wasn't based on priority. But even if you want to play that game, the first one,

and again, I don't believe that it's a priority, but one of the Bill of Rights, okay, one of the bills there is what? The amendment. Separation of church and state. This is not a Christian country. Our religion is the United States Constitution. Our religion is the law. Those are the rules that we follow as an act of faith in our collective. That's the truth. It is not a Christian nation. And Justice Roberts said that. This is not a Christian nation. What else did you hear in those recordings?

Well, you heard Justice Alito admit that he's a Christian and that he is tuned in to the conflict in this country of Christianity and making it more of a guideline in American society. Oh, well then he can't be a justice on what basis? So our Supreme Court justice is not allowed to have religion. What are you saying? Just because you hate religion doesn't mean

it has to be the rule for everybody. And conversely, just because you're religious doesn't mean that has to be the rule for everybody. That'sely, just because you're religious doesn't mean that has to be the rule for everybody. That's my problem with putting morality that was taught to me as a Catholic in my upbringing on the rest of society when it comes to reproductive rights. They are not all practitioners of the same faith. So why would that be the rule in a secular society? So what, Samuel Alito says that there's a battle between Christian morality and whatever he thinks the negative alternative is. All of these men and women have religion of biases,

have preferences, have politics. That's my point. You should have known it in the confirmation process. Change the process. Know who these people are. That's the fix. Not kicking him off the court, it's not gonna happen anyway. And the Supreme Court polices itself. So if they put out new disclosure rules, new transparency rules, they still police it themselves. At least Justice Roberts pushed back on that notion. And I bet you he's a Christian too.

But he pushed back on the idea of this being a Christian nation. Why? Because it's a secular nation. And you can want Christianity to be the dominant moray. You can want that. You can work to make it happen. You may succeed. But that doesn't make this a Christian nation. Right? I mean, that's how it works. That's how it's supposed to work. So the real fix here isn't being focused on why, because that's not what this is about.

Not justice, just us. Bad, bad Clarence Thomas, bad Alito, bad crazy kooky Christian conservatives. Get rid of them, get rid of them, get rid of them. What do you think is gonna happen even if you did? There was enough pressure that one of these cats stepped down. What do you think's gonna happen even if you did? There was enough pressure that one of these cats stepped down. What do you think would happen next?

They would be digging into Kagan and Sotomayor and Katanji Brown, the newest justice. They'd find shit in their past and hang them with it. Hang them with it. Because that is binary zero sum play. Trump is gonna get it. Biden's going to get it. When will you see the game and work to stop the game? With the Supreme Court, it's an easy fix. We got to have transparency in the confirmation process. You got to know

who these men and women are. I mean, what standard are we trying to uphold? It's nonsense. Oh yeah, but it's a secret recording. Like somehow that means that you're being, I've said this before. People say things that are more true when they're being secretly recorded. That's right, because they're not performing for the camera.

But so what that he's Christian and he believes that there's a conflict in this country between Christians and non-Christians there is We don't know who we are. We don't know what our values are. We don't know who to be anymore We don't know what to devalue. We don't we don't know what matters We don't know where the lines are of decency. We don't know when to stop. We don't know what to protect we're lost and most of that is because you've got two people pushing you back and forth between them.

And you keep making decisions on which one hurts you least. Sucks, but that's where we are. My job, my interest is in getting you to see that, to interpret what's happening around us so that you can judge it and act or decide to not act on the basis of what you think matters for you. And hopefully that is a reflection of what you see as a community of need and common concerns. It's so interesting. If you look at the news coverage of what's happening with this controversy on the Supreme Court, you see exactly what it's about. Okay? Alito is either a crazy Christian or he's being victimized

for his faith and his wife is being secretly taped and it shows the deep state and blah, blah, blah. And then you have Chief Justice Roberts. If you like that he is pushing back on this being a Christian nation, you see Chief Roberts does not think we are a Christian nation. Then you have Roberts does not think we are a Christian nation. Then you have another headline that has him, has it posed in the negative. Can you believe Roberts doesn't believe we're a Christian nation? It's interesting.

These recordings about Alito, as I read the coverage of it, no longer tries to hide his theocratic worldview. The fuck he wasn't trying to hide it. He was secretly taped. Justice Alito in secret recording agrees nation needs to return to a Christian nation and an understanding of that. That's his political, personal, religious feeling. You don't think all these men and women have those.

You think you've picked men and women have those. You think you've picked men and women on that court who are a-religious? Just because you secretly record all of them, what do you think you're going to hear? This is bullshit for ABC News and the New York Times to put it out this way. They're just playing into the game. So let me read to you what Justice Robert says. Yeah, I don't know that we live in a Christian nation. I know a lot of Jewish and Muslim friends who would say, maybe not, Robert says in the secret recording.

And it's not our job to do that. It's our job to decide the cases as best we can. And that's secretly recorded. That's as part of a discussion where he's hearing the Alitos saying this wacky shit about this being a Christian nation and we got to fight for that. And Martha Anne being out there on the reservation

of getting back at everybody because she's German. Who says that? I'm German, you come at me, I'm coming for you. Wow. And Robert still says the right thing. What does that tell you? That when you pick the best of us, they're different than the rest of us.

And he's saying exactly what you wanna hear there. Yeah, but Alito isn't. Alito's acting like a human being. Doesn't mean that he doesn't understand the law and jurisprudence and doesn't judge cases in an excellent way. I'm just telling you, Roberts is the exception to the rule

that he can see past his own preferences, even in private conversation. That's not the way men and women are. It's not the way they behave on the court. It's not the way they talk when they're not on the bench. So why hide that reality by coming up with a fugazi process where they don't have to talk about who they really are as people? How is that serving us?

Because the way it is now, every time they come down with a ruling that breaks along political lines, it reinforces a cynicism. Okay, so am I saying that these decisions are just political votes? No, I don't mean that. I'm just saying that to suggest who these people are doesn't come in as an ingredient of what they believe.

You really believe that Justice Scalia came up with a case that vacated generations of jurisprudence on the second amendment, because he wasn't a personal fan of guns and a personal believer that access to weapons is a good thing. You don't think that? You don't think a guy who was so rigorous

in being a four corners interpretationist, an interpreter who looks at what's in the document and does not go outside it. And then he reads in an individual right to an amendment where it is not there, where it had never been found previously by the court. You don't think it was about his personal politics. Of course it was.

Of course it helped shape his understanding of the jurisprudence of what mattered in the law. And he got a majority to agree with him. Is it a coincidence that the Democrats pick people who get on the court who just happen to believe in reproductive rights and and the Republicans don't. So why hide from it? It doesn't make it bad. It's not a malignancy, it's a reality. And I'm not saying that the decisions are just political preference votes.

They're not polls. They're not votes per se of political preference, but they feed in, so you might as well know the reality of who they are and what they are, and the fix is so easy. Take the chains off of the confirmation process. Let these men and women discuss their politics and why they believe what they believe

and why they voted the way they voted and how it informs their sense of jurisprudence, if at all, maybe they can make a compelling case to you and to the senators who are reviewing them that, yeah, I mean, I'm a diehard righty or I'm a libertarian or even though libertarian, it's like, it's such a cop-out position. It's like, it's just a way of saying you're better

than everybody else while having no responsibility and no platform and no power. But anyway, I'm a Democrat, I'm a Republican, I'm a Libertarian, I'm whatever. And, but no, I decide the cases based on what I think the policy is in there and how the statute reads and how it's been interpreted in the past. Now you know, why pretend that they don't have any

of these personal leanings? I really believe that that's the fix. And I believe that these recordings of Alito don't change that. They just require, if anything, they just scream that we need the transparency more. I'll tell you what I'm impressed by is two things. I'm not surprised that Alito came out as a Christian who wants to see Christianity. He's a devout Catholic. He like lived at home with his mother. He's like a typical Italian homeboy, you know? It's that Alito was right that his wife

is clearly the firebrand in the relationship. There's even a reminiscence in there where the wife remembers that when she said she wanted to put a Sacred Heart of Mary or whatever flag up in response to something, he was like, please don't put up another flag. That's what he told you in the letter. It's my wife, not me.

He was telling you the truth, it seems. And that Justice Roberts in a private conversation said to somebody who was baiting him into playing that this is a Christian place, he said, nah, it's not who we are. It's not how it works. It's not how I do my job. That's my take on the Alito situation.

Should Alito, should Thomas, Roberts, Kagan, Sotomayor, Brown, any of them recuse? No. Not unless they have a specific conflict in a case. Well, what about where Trump is involved when his wife loves him? How is it any different than Mershon when his daughter hates Trump? You can't saddle these men and women with the political preferences of the people around them. It's not fair. And you can't say that you want it with Eileen Cannon, but you don't want it with Mershawn,

that you want it with Thomas, but you don't want it with Brown. You can't. That's just revealing that you're just about the game and advantage. You're not about fairness under law. You're not about fairness. You're about not justice, just us. You want to preference your side.

And I know you think, fuck you Cuomo, the other side's worse. That's not getting us anywhere. Think about it applied anywhere else in your life. Who smells more like shit? The guy who stepped in horse shit or the guy who stepped in dog shit? That's what we're doing in our politics right now.

Biden and Trump. A guy who you have fears that he's dead man walking and the other guy realities that he's a madman walking. Dead man versus madman. That's where we are. That's what the parties have given you, bestowed upon you. And guess who's happy with those choices? Not you. Better than two out of three of you. Don't like either choice. Who likes them? The parties. Because the parties are like hot dog versus Vienna sausage. They are both disgusting. But if you are in a battle of cheap meats, you've got a point of comparison. So they're happy with Biden and Trump. They don't give a shit about

their product. They just want to win. Eat this ballpark, Frank. They plump when you cook them. Why? Because they're filled with fillers and things that expand with heat. Yeah, but look what they're feeding you. They're floating in liquid in a can, which is pretty fucking nasty, let's be honest. They're okay with the product being shit. They just want to win. Now, I think the right has more of a point of frustration with Trump than the left does with Biden. I think the left has regret that they didn't make him stick to one term, that they didn't have better. And I hear the arguments that we're overvaluing how spry he is, that what he has lost in energy and cogency Biden has with wisdom

and understanding of how to do the job and understanding of the institutions. Maybe so, let's see if he can convince enough people of that. I think the right has more frustrations with Trump is that that fool will say whatever he needs to say in any moment. And he is unburdened by principle. He has no understanding of history. He has no understanding of philosophy. He has no understanding of economics. He's just a very basic street smart guy who understands people's prejudices and their fear and their animus and their grievance.

And he has sold people as any good salesman will that he is the guy to bust up what they want to destroy. And what's testament to how great a salesman he is. He's telling you he can do it, even though you already bought the product the first time and it didn't get it done. You're still going to buy it a second time. That's a good sell. But I think that party is much more frustrated with him

than the Democrats are with Biden. Why? Because he's a much worse representation of a Republican than Biden is as a Democrat. Now, and Trump is a creature of the fringe. Biden is not a creature of the fringe. I know O'Reilly and these other big mouth righties like to say that, that Biden is

owned by his far left. There's absolutely outsized pressure in a magnified minority in the left, but that's not where Biden comes from. That's just bullshit. You would have never had Trump if you didn't have a crazy right fringe. So see the game, see it for what it is. And don't play just to advantage. Be about something bigger than that. If you want things to get better. Otherwise you're just doing a reductive battle to the bottom and own it and be honest about it. Plenty of us are.

I just want to win. I just want to win. I don't care. I just want my guys in there. That's how I feel. You want the Supreme Court to be better? Have it be more transparent. How is it more transparent?

They should have better reporting rules in-house that the Supreme Court oversees about who they get stuff from and why. They should. Clarence Thomas has gotten way too much stuff from people that you don't know about. Doesn't make sense. And more so the big ticket is transparency

in the confirmation process. Have these men and women tell you who and what they're about. Nobody else gets away with it the way they do in vetting. Why? Because there's something sacrosanct about reviewing the law that is better than politics, that's above, that's beyond. That's clearly not true. So transparency is the cure, not secrecy.

Should Thomas recuse, should Alito recuse? No, not unless they have a specific conflict in a case. Like if it's a case about whether there should be such a thing as Christianity, well then yeah, then they can recuse because they're Christians. But just because they have wives that are politically active and may hold views that you find offensive, that doesn't mean that the judge has to go. Anymore than Sotomayor having a crazy cousin who hates Trump, so she has to go. You wouldn't feel that way. Katanji Brown, if it came out that she wrote papers or signed on to an organization that believed in anarchy or whatever negative

thing you want to figure out, well would she have to step down? Well yeah, she did it directly. Well, would she have to step down? Well, yeah, she did it directly. Ah, so you picked up the my change in the analysis. Do you have that with Thomas? Well, no, but if his wife feels it, no, it's not enough. Couples have different political feelings. And even if he shares her feelings, and Alito does as well,

do you see it in their judgments? And do you see it in their judgments? And do you see it in their judgments any more so than you do with all these other people? Make the process transparent. Be about fairness under law, justice, not just us playing to advantage. That's my take. And these secret recordings only make that point more clear. Wow, Alito's a Christian. That's not a shocker. Wow, Roberts, even in a private conversation, pushes back on the idea that Christians are better than anybody else and that his job is not about seeing religious preference. That's really impressive

that he did that when someone was debating him in a private conversation and he may have had the assumed comfort of knowing the Alitos were saying all kinds of shit that normally they wouldn't say to someone like me. But the idea that these judges have to go, then they all have to go. And you have to replace them with people who've been fully vetted, and you know their politics, and you know who influences them and their lives around them. And you don't know that about any of them. I'm Chris Cuomo. Thank you for being with me on The Chris Cuomo Project. It's not always going to be what you want, but it's about interpreting what's happening around and then

you filter it and you make it what you want. It's food for thought. I'm not here to confirm your suspicions. I'm not here to tell you that everything you believe is right and that the other side's crazy. Two things can be true at once. You've gotta be open. You've gotta be curious. You've gotta be open to what you oppose or you will become what you oppose. Thank you for subscribing, following.

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