The Chris Cuomo Project - Tucker Carlson and Chris Cuomo in Conversation on Media Ethics, Mistakes, and Moving Forward

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

In part two of their conversation, Chris Cuomo and Tucker Carlson (host, Tucker Carlson Network) delve into the into the complexities of disagreement in politics, family loyalty, and media ethics. Chris shares insights into his career journey, from being hired by Roger Ailes at Fox News to his eventual firing from CNN, and how these experiences shaped his perspectives on facing personal and professional challenges head-on. Tucker and Chris also touch upon the importance of critical thinking, the failure of the two-party system, and the potential for more nuanced and open-minded public discourse. Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject #cuomo #cuomoproject #tuckercarlson #newsnation #news Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Now, in this next part of the interview, you're going to see here on the Chris Cuomo project that you can have disagreements about the issues. It doesn't mean that the other person is a demon or a devil. Look, it can mean that if you're having a disagreement over the value of a particular group of human beings or of whether or not it's okay to kill every time you're angry, you know, something perverse and existential and highly immoral. But that's very rarely what we're talking about. We're talking about things that were complicated

and nuanced and didn't have to be black and white, but they were made that way out of political advantage. And that's how the conversation continues. MUSIC What are these guys getting bored over here? It continues. ["Dark Secrets"] What are these guys, getting bored over here? You guys aren't? What they're doing? I'm loving this. Anyway, whatever, I'm going on.

No, no. See, this is supposed to be an interview with you and your dark secrets. What's the worst thing you've ever done? The worst thing I've ever done was to forget what I'm supposed to be about. Every time I have an amazing ability to repeat mistakes. Been there.

An amazing ability. And I just started looking into myself more about this. You know, and in this way, I'm very shy about this stuff, but everything that happens in life, there's very little that you control, right? Most things happen to you, not by you. But with everything that happens, you have an absolute ability to control what it means

and how to react to it. And that is really easy to say and really hard to do. And what I did when I got shit-canned, and I really, I gotta be honest, I didn't handle it well. I really didn't. But can I just ask, just to see, because you're explaining how you keep repeating the same mistakes, which is a very frustrating

and very human phenomenon, but do you think you got fired for mistakes that you made? Yes. Really? And I'll tell you why. Because did I do what they say I did? No, I never lied, I didn't go after my brother's accusers. And you could say, why not?

Isn't that what you're supposed to do? His party has rules, and the rule is an allegation is enough, and you don't really go after the accuser if they are believed, okay? That's what he signed up for, okay. That you're talking about the Democratic party. That's right, that's what he signed up. One allegation is enough. He had more than one, okay. That you're talking about the Democratic Party. That's right. That's what he signed. One allegation is enough.

He had more than one, okay? So that's the rule. And that was my conversation with him. I never went after his accusers. I didn't work the media. I didn't call up and say, I wouldn't have called you, that's for sure. But I didn't call people up and say,

do me a favor, we're friends, be nice to my brother. And here's how we know that has to be true, okay? You don't think that if I had called somebody up and asked for a favor, they'd be raising their hand right now and saying, he called me, he called me. You don't think that they would immediately announce it? Of course they would. I would have been fine if you'd done that

because it's your brother, but that's just me. But I'm saying, the media would say, no, this is unethical, blah, blah, blah. I didn't do what they say, but I foolishly believed, and this was a mistake, that my bosses, the media, the people who I thought knew me would allow this uncomfortable balance to be respected and seen for what it was.

And, cause look, is it a conflict? Of course it's a conflict. Unless your boss says it's okay, which obviously he did, right? Because obviously there was no secret about me talking to my brother and listening to some of his meetings with his staff. And it was a mistake for me to think

that that would be respected and treated fairly. I should have never thought that way. I should have seen it for the way I would now if someone came to me and said, do you think that this is gonna be a problem? I'd be like, yeah, it's gonna be a problem. As soon as they find out about this, they're gonna use it.

And it was a mistake. The only part that rings a little false is when you said, to my ear, is when you said that would have been unethical. And so you're someone who's been in the media your whole life at high levels, ABC News, Fox News, CNN. News Nation. News Nation, and News Nation now. But like, you know, because you've lived in that world,

that ethics in the media are like lower than they are among prostitutes, like I think. First of all, you gotta live your own standard, right? Okay, fair. You gotta live your own standard. And I believe in the media. I believe in it. I think it's, if not, I don't want to say the most,

but it's definitely one of the main signatures of our democracy. And you know from your travels. I couldn't agree more. And there's no question that's impermanent. So you're saying, to be clear, you believe in the idea of- I believe in the idea.

Yeah, yeah, me too. And do people practice it that way? Not enough. Everything is imperfect. Everything that is human controlled is imperfect and easily corrupted. Some people do it very well, certainly better than I do. Some people suck and are mean and try to do things just for advantage

and it works really well because we reward the wrong things. Negativity is allowed to be a proxy for insight. Taking you down does lift me up. And people don't want to hear good things about Tucker Carlson. They want to hear bad things about Tucker Carlson. If I were to do a profile of you that was making

a fair case for all the success you've had, it would get dismissed as a puff piece and I would be seen as a dupe. If I were to say falsely, but with just a little bit of proof that even regular people who aren't in our business would be like, God, the proof is kind of thin on this, that Tucker Carlson loves to kick puppies, they would say, that's a hard-hitting piece

of journalism right there. Because negativity is the proxy for insight. So that's our business. So they would look with that mindset, I made it too easy for them to come after me for my situation. And I should have seen it, but more importantly, my real mistake was allowing my family to absorb that blow

as if it were just about me and my brother, and it wasn't. And it's really hard to have something that goes so wrong in your life, where you come out of it like, I don't even know what I would do differently. There's no world where I don't help my brother. There's no world where I don't help my family, where I don't help my friends.

That's all I am. But what I did to my family, what I did to my kids, I hate myself for it. And all I can do is to try to be different now and make different choices now. Like I don't pick fights the way I used to. I believe that my value at the time on CNN was, I'm gonna bring on Tucker Carlson.

He's a smart guy. He's practiced on what he is. I'm going to take him apart tonight. Not gratuitously, but I'm going to take him on on his own basis. I want him at his best, whatever his best argument is, let's have him on and let's get after it. I don't do that the same way anymore. And of course, you're gun shy or you know,? No, because it's not worth what it did to my family. But there's been a saving grace, which is what brings me here today to be with you. It doesn't work anymore.

You tearing me apart on any issue, not personally. Let's say it's just policy. You just kill me on immigration, okay? It doesn't move the needle. The people who believe me think you're an asshole. And the people who believe you think that I'm an idiot who shouldn't be listened to. That's it.

It doesn't change any minds. Doesn't change any minds. The only thing that can change minds is to change your audience to critical thinkers and people who are open. They're not lemmings, they're not sheeple, they're not party people. They're independent, they lemmings, they're not sheeple, they're not party people. They're independent, they're free agents,

they're critical thinkers. And to have conversations that are uncomfortable. So how could you possibly be upset about being fired? I mean, this sounds like, it's not flattery, it's sincere. That sounds like a much more enlightened view of the world, a truer view of the world than the view that cable news encourages. That's a good thing, isn't it?

Look, again, bad things happen. You get an opportunity what to do with them. I'm choosing to try to create a better professional mode for myself, but, but I can't look at what happened to me and not see injury. Now, do I have the ability to say, Chris, I'll show you injury. Injury is falling off a crane.

Injury is getting cancer. Injury is not being able to feed your family. True, I am ridiculously blessed. I never think otherwise. My father would haunt me if I did. I know that for a fact. otherwise. My father would haunt me if I did. I know that for a fact. But I had a platform, a position, at a place where there was incredible reach. And I was able to weigh in on whatever

mattered in the world and get an audience that was unfathomable to me before I was at CNN. And I lost that when I was fired, and I'll never get it back, never. And my name right now is Chris Cuomo, I'm okay with that, comma, fired by CNN, I accept that, that's a fact, comma, for lying about what he did to help his brother. That is not true, and it cannot stand, and I cannot have my kids have to deal with that

as a Google search of me. It's not true, and the people who said it know it's not true. So, there's an injury. You know, I always used to, maybe I'm the one who grew up in the mafia family, because I just don't see that. I didn't grow up in a mafia family. I know, I'm just joking.

I just want to take your head. No. Squeeze it. No. Is that wrong? Is that evil? It's a little wrong, but I'll accept it. We don't fake the funk here, and here's the real talk.

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I just don't look lying is bad. It's always bad. Lying is always bad. But doing whatever you can to help your family. Again, it's just a hierarchy of loyalty. And anyone who tells you that you have, except to God, a higher loyalty than to your own family, that's your enemy. No, your loyalty's to your family, okay, period.

So I don't, you know, you say you didn't lie, I actually completely believe you. But if I found out that you did lie, I wouldn't judge you, it's your brother. I mean, like what? I think it matters. If your brother was on the run and he said, can you give me 500 bucks for a fake passport?

I'd give it to him. In a second! Yeah. Yeah, that's how I feel. So like, how is that a sin? I don't know if it's a sin, I don't know if it's right, I don't know if it's wrong, I'm just telling you that's the way I am.

Yeah. But. Good, well I admire that. If I had been lying, look, I apologized, okay? And this was really hard for me. I mean, I apologize all the time when you make repeated mistakes the way I do and you lose your temper and you do stupid shit

that you didn't mean to do. You wind up apologizing a lot if you're trying to get better. I apologized for what? For what I did? No. For helping my brother? No.

Because I was told by my boss that people at CNN felt that they'd been compromised by what was coming out about what I was doing for my brother. That, I never saw that coming. And if I had known at the beginning, and I offered to leave twice, if I knew at the beginning that it was gonna be bad for the men and women who were working at CNN

doing what they were doing, and I was gonna compromise their ability to do it, I would have quit like that if I had known. Can I just say, I mean, I don't know, how long did you spend at CNN? Over 10 years. Over 10 years. So I didn't spend quite 10 years, or I spent a long time there.

And the idea that they would have moral qualms about that at CNN is just not believable. Just don't believe that. I mean, they put on from Operation Tailwind when I was there, to the Russiagate stuff, which was just factually untrue, to all kinds of other stuff. Like, they have no qualms about lying,

because I've seen it. They did when I worked there. And so I just don't believe that they were morally offended by a man helping his brother, and not even in ridiculous ways. Like, you weren't, you know what I mean? So I guess my question is, I'm used to seeing people taken out for political reasons.

You're from one of the most famous Democratic Party families in the world. You're related by marriage to the Kennedy's. Like no one's doubting, right, what side you're on, at least by appearances. Why, what was the real reason they took you out? I just don't believe that. That they were offended.

I mean, bullshit. I hurt CNN. How? Because the media saw me and what I was doing as being beneath the level of transparency and ethical obligations that someone should have in the position that I was in. I don't like to swear, you know,

but I just can't say bullshit enough. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. But I'm telling you, that's- Jeff Zucker was like having an affair with an employee, supposedly, according to the media, but, and was later let go because of it, according to the media. But the point is, I just don't believe that.

And my guess, because I don't know, because no one there will talk to me anymore, but my guess is- They won't talk to me either, which really hurts. It's crazy, though. It really hurts, but I'll tell you what, though. But I think it was the testosterone level thing. They just don't want a man who doesn't hate himself on TV.

That's what I think. Look, that's not the reason that was stated. People get frustrated with me because I don't go bad on Jeff Zucker and I won't. Two reasons. What I said earlier about the opportunities he gave me. And two, that's a bad place. And I've been there.

And if you let yourself get absorbed. I get it. It is hard to get out. So I have so much respect and concern for so many people who are still at CNN. And I think it's an amazing place that's capable of amazing things. And I really miss what I had there.

I get it. And it would be easier, I guess, and outwardly more satisfying to be like, I hate them and I hope bad things happen. No, no, no, no, and I'm glad you don't feel that way. I don't feel that way about my last employer. I'm not mad at them at all. I never feel mad at them, and I'm not, and I mean it.

But. I'm mad. I'm angry about what I mean it. But... I'm mad. I'm angry about what happened to me. But I just don't, there's clearly a reason that's different from the stated reason, and I think the most obvious answer... I was just trouble. I became trouble for them, and the brand matters more.

And when it was working for them, I was the man, and they couldn't get enough of me. But you were the highest rated show. Right, not even close, I was the man. And they couldn't get enough of me. But you were the highest rated show. Right, not even close. I was the number one show. But they... They can't fire you if you've got the number one show. Yes they can.

Are you serious? Yeah, like this. Pfft, and out you go. Wow. And look. Wow. It's a tough... But keep that in mind.

It's a tough business. I understand that. And here's what I tell myself now. And I think this is important for our audiences also. This is what I signed up for. The really, really impressive ability you have to separate yourself from the impressions of you. I don't have that, that's good.

I say that, but I don't have it the way you do. I now tell myself this, and this is what keeps my hands like this instead of like this, I signed up for this. You wanna be forward-facing? No, it's true. You wanna be in the media?

No, that's true. You wanna have the platform? You want people to listen to what you say? Then you're gonna have to listen to what they say. And if they don't like you, you have to take it. And that's what you signed up for. If you don't like it, that's fine. Leave, go work somewhere else.

Go start an electrical services company and have a different life and live it. But if you wanna be public facing and you wanna be part of the dialogue in the arena, right, as Teddy Roosevelt said, then this is what you signed up for. And I tell myself that all the time. And it never ends well.

I mean, it doesn't. It always ends in tears. These relationships with these media companies, I've lived it. I have to ask though, did anyone, well, was it Zasloff, by the way? Who did it, do you think? Look, he wasn't in yet,

but it's hard for me to believe that Jeff Zucker, I thought he was making that deal happen. But it's hard for me to believe that, you know, Jeff Zucker, I thought he like was making that deal happen. You know, another regret for me on this is, God, you know, Jeff was so important to that place. He was so valuable. And because of this dynamic, he wound up being out. And I never wanted that.

People say, well, at least he got fired. I feel terribly that he got fired. Good. And he was so valuable to that place, and we see that now. I don't know who knew and who did what. I'm told things. I'm not gonna repeat them because I can't prove them.

But I don't think it was a one man decision. It never is. So when you did leave after 10 years as the highest rated show when you left. I didn't leave, I was fired. When you got shit canned, as you said. Did any of the other anchors call you to say, gosh, I got kind of shafted,

I'm sorry to see you go? No. Nobody called you? No on-air person? People called. A couple of guys, but none of the ones that you know or you recognize with the CNN brand. Why?

Because they were told things that weren't true. And I think in fairness to them, you take care of yourself in those positions. And you don't get caught in a situation where maybe you'll get swept into the controversy of being on Cuomo's side and he's the wrong side, he's the bad side, I'm on Jeff's side, I'm on whatever side,

you protect yourself. But if you work for a company or any organization that prevents you or terrifies you into not making human contact, expressing sympathy to other person. I don't know that they terrified him into it. I think it's either they didn't want to talk to me because they thought I fucked up,

or they didn't want to talk to me because they thought I fucked up, or they didn't want to talk to me because they thought I messed up, or they didn't know what to do, or they were worried about what would happen if they did. And I get it. But by the way, they're not the only news organization that behaves like this at all. They all do as far as I know.

But isn't that a red flag that you're working for like horrible people? Look, it was an ugly situation. But they're ugly people though. I mean like who would do that if I, you know, if I fired someone who worked for me, who was popular or unpopular, whatever, I would never say to the other people on staff, don't ever reach out to that person.

I don't judge it. You know. I do. Marcus Aurelius is one of my favorite philosophers, right? He was the last of the good emperors, whatever that means in Rome. And he says the greatest revenge is to not be what you oppose.

Well, I agree with that. And that is hard to do, especially for me. I'm ridiculously petty, and not just because I'm Sicilian. No, it's probably just because of Sicilian. No, it's probably just because it's Sicilian. Well, maybe a little bit. But it's really hard to do, and I don't judge people for not reaching out to me. I get it, I get that it was hard.

I get that this is really painful for a lot of people in a lot of ways, and I really feel badly about that. I wish I had control over it, but I don't. And I am here and I am a phone call away for anybody. And now people are calling. Now they're calling and I'm good with that. And if I can help, I wanna help.

And if you wanna reach out, I'm here. What do you think the chances are that some of the people who didn't call you, I'm not naming Anderson or Wolf by name. You just did. Oh, I did. Sometimes I have trouble discerning between the- Inside voice, outside voice?

The internal dialogue. That explains it all. Monologue up. But that your colleagues will be calling you in a couple years as your former employer does collapse under the weight of its own irrelevance and sort of ask you for guidance on how to live outside the system. Well, look, it is different doing what you're doing now, doing what I'm doing now. I don't think CNN is going to collapse.

I think it's a very powerful organization. I think everybody's got to retool and find different ways to be effective. If anybody can do it, CNN will. I don't know the new management team there. I don't know this guy. I hear positive things about him from people in-house. It's hard times in the media. It is. News Nation, where I am, is hiring. I think it's the only cable news outfit that's growing. It's the benefit of starting low, but it is growing. And I think the main reason that it is

is because there's such a desperation for different and disruption of the norms. And I know it because people say it to me all the time. The most common thing is, I don't know what they're gonna say after this, but the most common thing I've heard up until this is, you know, at CNN, I saw you differently. Now, sometimes they'll say you were different at CNN.

I don't see that. I mean, I was certainly different personally because I hadn't gone through this maelstrom, this crucible, but they'll say, you know, when you were at CNN, I didn't like this, but now I do now. And I think that there's just so much silo thinking that News Nation is not part of that.

And it's getting an opportunity to just be what people see on its air, without people thinking, well, I know they're trying to trick me into being this way or that way, and I think that's probably why it's growing. But I'm sure that's right. I'm the last person who would know, as you know,

but I think it's also important to acknowledge that maybe changes have taken place within you. I mean, your views probably don't agree with all of them. I know I don't. But you do seem, well smart, I will say that, but very self-aware. That's new. So I wonder if, having been fired and humiliated a lot,

I've always thought that men need to be humiliated regularly, especially people who are successful, because otherwise they become totally unbearable. And I wonder if that's like not the greatest thing that ever happened, it's good to be humiliated. I think that you can find value in it. There's value in suffering, there's value in struggle, there's value in it. There's value in suffering, there's value in struggle, there's value in pain. In fact, I do believe that the things that have shaped

my life when I look back at like what moments mattered and what moves mattered, what events, they're almost all negative. Well, let me flip it around. Have you ever learned anything important from eating French toast in bed on vacation? No. No. The easy moments don't yield that much. Look, no shame in my game, I've been using AG-1 for over five years.

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CozyEarth.comcom and the code is Chris. So you said, I can't complain, I don't have cancer, I haven't fallen off a crane, I think is what you said. And I hope I never get cancer and I hope I never fall off a crane. But there is something, I know a lot of people who've had cancer and are completely fine and grateful to be alive, of course, and they suffer.

But there is a difference between suffering with an ailment that's not your fault and being publicly humiliated as a result of decisions that you made and suddenly becoming unpopular with all the cool kids. That seems, in a lot of ways, I'm not in any way minimizing all the other bad things that happen to people, but that seems like it's in its own category. It's different. I would argue that I was never really that popular with the cool kids. I've always been kind of boxed out in the media. Why? Because my name is Cuomo, and when I first wanted to get into this business I couldn't even get a

job at New York One. The reason that I wound up working at Fox News was because Roger Ailes was the only one who would give me a shot. Everywhere else I went, you know, I was a lawyer, I'd been practicing law, and- We were the father's Mario Cuomo. It hurt me. Among the liberal outlets, but it was Roger Ailes

who was the only one who gave me a job. That's right. How interesting, why it was Roger Ailes, the only one who gave you the job. How interesting, why? He said, so, yeah, a little bit of a long story, but through mutual relationships, he had seen me on television. And his joke was, this guy looks like he should be on a soap opera,

but he sounds like he's from the inner city. And he said, let me meet him. And I met him. And we talked about a million different things. And he said, look, they're going to make you go to local television and you're going to learn a lot of bad habits. You're going to learn a lot of good things.

I'll bring you in here. I see something in you, and I'll teach you everything I know. Here's the thing though, if you fail, you're done, because you'll be failing at a place where people are gonna see you fail. This is not West Virginia. But if you don't fail and you pick it up,

you're gonna leapfrog ahead of where you would have been otherwise. He said, and here's the good news. You don't seem to give a shit whether you succeeded at this or not. Because I wasn't going into it because I wanted to be a star. I thought there was an incredible opportunity to contact people and to show them things and mess with how they feel about things

that wasn't being used. It seemed so cookie cutter to me at the time. When I entered the business, they would talk to me about how I tracked and that these aren't movie lines, Chris. You know, you have to read them, you know, there's an intonation and your hands, kind of keep your hands down.

By the time I left, I was like a model of like, you know, use your hands more, you know, you gotta be more natural. those sound like everybody else. Things change. So I went there and Roger made good on his promise. He sent me all over the country, covering crime, learning the skills of being a broadcaster and an interviewer, the trinity of interviewing.

He said to me, pointed at this, here and here. He said, you've got to balance your head, your heart and your balls. And there's a time to be ballsy, there's a time to be compassionate, there's a time to be smart, and you got to figure out what the balance is, the alchemy of them.

And he gave me those opportunities. And he told me when I left to go to ABC News, he said, you're making a mistake. He said, they will never accept you. And I said, they don't accept me now because I work at Fox News. I was like, you know, this is, I gotta go. This is like the real place.

And he was like, they're never gonna accept you. Was he right? I think to a certain extent, there's been a selective kind of exclusion, but it never really mattered to me. I didn't go into this business to be a star, to make friends. I got my people.

And I'm not really friends with a lot of people who are in the media. I never have been. And if I am, it's because our friendship transcends media. It's not based of it. And the relationships that I had that were largely media based, they disappeared when I got shit-canned

with a few exceptions. It's an unloyal people. I think that it's like you stop going to the nightclub. You know, I hang out in the nightclub. I go to the nightclub. You're not allowed in the nightclub anymore. I guess I'm not gonna see you that much. And that's what the relationship was about.

I never have brunch with Wolf Blitzer anymore, it's weird. I love Wolf Blitzer, I called him the captain. I thought that he was such, is such, I don't know what I'm talking about in past tense, Wolf is such a great exemplar of what I wanted to be in that business. He's unfailingly kind. He does what he thinks is right and he works his ass off.

I called him the captain. I miss him. I miss a lot of him, but life goes on. He's unfailingly polite. I would definitely say that having worked with him. Oh, it's more than that. If you talk to the people who stars are usually not nice to, you know how they'll say,

oh, he or she, they're a little hard on the furniture. Furniture is a metaphor for these other human beings that are doing jobs in production. No, it's so true. And he, you won't find someone. He's the kind of person that if you say you don't like wolf, there's something wrong with you. It's the kind of person that if you say you don't like Wolf, there's something wrong with you. It's not because of him.

Me, you can dislike. Like I have people with the same last name who will say, hold on, I love the guy. These are things I don't like. I'll tell you one thing you and I share. You, I noticed this when people talk about your wife. When they talk about your wife, they talk the same way they do about my wife.

Yeah. Oh, when you meet her, she's the nicest person. She is a good person. And then a little subtly, it's like, as opposed to the guy she's married to. We have a phrase that in my house, it's called DA, the designated asshole. And that's my job. That's my job, the designated asshole, and that's my job.

That's my job, baby. I own it, I own it, but I'm trying. And I believe that even this is a function of that. People aren't gonna like this. They're either gonna say that I should've basically been raking you over the coals all the time, otherwise there's no value to this. I'm just allowing people to not see you for what you are.

And I just don't think that gets us anywhere. And I think people can make their own minds up about things. That's just a silly partisan point on either side. And of course, that's the past. I do think it's bigger of me, though, than you. And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why.

I was thinking about this actually during the conversation. One, you're less injured by what happened to you than I am. You are killing it business-wise, right? Everything you do is huge. And your boy Musk, meeting with Trump, by the way, to fund his campaign now, I wanna get your head on that. But I feel like this was really, I'm surprised that I was able to listen to our counsel

and say, wait, no, this guy has done nothing but hit me like a piñata. And I decided, you know what, that was them. And let me meet him on his own terms. The funny thing is, But that was good for me, I'm a very small person. I barely remember that. I know, I hate that.

I hate it, because I remember all of them. So I have a really good friend who I talked to this morning, he's just a wonderful man. And his name is Glenn Greenwald. And you can agree or disagree with his views on things. He has also kicked my ass on a regular basis. No one was ever meaner to me than Glenn Greenwald. No one ever.

And he must have written 50 pieces calling me various names, all unpleasant names. And we ended up six or seven years ago meeting and finding that we agreed on some things, not everything obviously, but some things. And that friendship, and I think it's fair to call it a friendship, has just brought me so much joy. It's so nice to see that someone is like, that you're wrong about your assessment of

somebody and the person's soul is like, way better. And I have to say, I've had that experience so much in my life. It's the greatest privilege of this job is to meet people and find that they're nothing like the caricature. Occasionally, they're worse, you know, but that is- Or you're right about whatever they are. Or you're right. That's exactly right. that has happened to me,

having interviewed thousands of people as you have, but I would say most of the time I'm like, I like that guy. Do you know what I mean? I really have felt that. Depends how you meet him and the context. I think the context matters. Sometimes people are in performance mode, they're being what they think they need to be in a thing.

What did Greenwald say when you said you were gonna talk to me? I didn't tell him. Yeah, we were talking about something else. What did Greenwald say when you said you were gonna talk to me? I didn't tell him. Yeah, we were talking about something else. What do you think he would have said? What do you think he will say? I don't know, I didn't know he was opposed to you. I don't know that he's,

I don't think that I really matter to him, but I mean, you know, he's come after me now and again. I'm an easy target of opportunity, I get that now. You know, having a year of not being on and watching TV, which I don't do a lot of news watching. I don't like it to confuse what I think the right angles and the right things are for me to do on my show. But having that time to watch and to think,

I'd probably come after me too. You know, it pretty- Well, I'd probably come after me too. You know, it pretty- Well, I will say it's fun. I'm just being honest. You should do that. It's really not my thing, by the way. But I gotta tell you, you made it hard

to try to not play the game that was being played on the other side of it. But I do know this, and I know this. And I know it again, what I signed up for. I know two things about our business, okay? One is the two party system has failed us. Yes. And Trump versus Biden all do respect to them

and their fans, okay? I'm not impugning them as people, although Trump I could go down the road with. The fact that they're the choices and that the country sees that they are inadequate choices only has one source, the party system. It has failed us. It's not in the constitution.

It's not a creature of law. It's just tradition. The Supreme Court said that in the 1970s. It's gotta go. I don't know how it goes. I don't need to know how to go to know that it's a problem. But that's the first thing I know.

When you go to Thanksgiving, family Thanksgiving, I mean, you're the son and brother of two of the most famous governors in the last 15 years. This does not go over well. It doesn't, okay. Because I have real Democrats and real Republicans in my family. And what I say to them is, you know,

which by the way, I say very little because, you know, I'm trying to get my holiday on here. You know what I mean? But what is your party even about? What are you except they suck? What are you? What are Republicans now? Cause I remember back in the day, I married into a real Republican family.

They are real people of character, of fiscal austerity. They have a different position than the current orthodoxy about what policy should be abroad. Character counts. You know, they were real conservatives, okay? It's not what that party is anymore. Democrats, my father's Democratic Party, he was all about workers.

He was about the underclass, but he was about government does everything you needed to do and nothing more. You help the people who can't help themselves. That's what it was supposed to do. And it was supposed to try to find ways for people to cooperate. That's what he was all about.

I remember sitting in the executive mansion in Albany and he had the head of the Senate, tying guy, Ralph Marino, they were absolutely at each other's throats, okay? Budgets and stuff like that, right? Pop was the governor, this guy was the head of the Republican Party, basically. He brings Ralph Marino over, they sit on the couch, opens a bottle of wine, or I think I actually opened the bottle of wine, and they started talking,

and my father was like, Ralph, I don't wanna hear this and this about me. Ralph's like, fine, you're right, that went too far. But what you're trying to do with this is, this just is not right. And you're trying to force it on us and you're trying to hold this thing. And they had this whole conversation,

a Republican and a Democrat. This guy was the leader on the Senate state side, okay? He had no business by today's rules being in that house, let alone making a deal, not a bad deal, not subterfuge, but I get it, we disagree, but we got too hot and that's a mistake. Now, how do we make this budget? How do we get this done? That's what it was about.

And by the way, that was tortured enough. What we are now is you're a traitor if you're in that room. Of course. And I know two things. The two party system has failed us and we have to have more voices and more conversation, not less. I know two things, the two party system has failed us, and we have to have more voices and more conversation, not less.

I know it. And that doesn't mean that people have to agree, in fact, the opposite is better. And I know I'm gonna get beat up for it. And that's okay, because that's what I signed up for. But I'm happy that we did this. I think there's value in it to people. And some won't think that, but I'm not going for all.

I'm only going for some, because there's only a small slice of people right now who have an open mind about anything. So winnables. My firing is not more important than your firing. Why do you think that you were the one? Like, you know, you're getting my head on why it was me. Why do you think it was you?

I mean, strictly speaking, I have no idea. I've never been told. I've heard a lot of people throw around theories, but I don't know which are true. And I don't really care. But more broadly, I understand why. It's called destiny. You know, you're just, your life has an arc and a path

and you don't know what it is, but you can feel it, you know, happen. But you didn't say, why me? What about all these other people? No, I felt like this was always gonna happen. It doesn't, I mean, I was shocked for like three minutes, but that was it. Well, I talked to you right after, I think,

within a couple days, and no, I was, this is my path and there will come a time when you show up for your annual physical, and he's like, stage four pancreatic, and you're like, okay, you know? I mean, that's just what it is. And so I'm almost never really shocked by anything that happens, but that,

I just immediately saw the upside, because I wasn't mad. And I wasn't mad, actually. And, um. Are you on medication? I don't take Advil. Like even Advil. So this is just you? Oh, you'll never meet anyone who's more opposed

to pills than I am. Or any intoxicants of any kind other than nicotine and coffee, that's it. That's where our roads diverge. Dude, I am, I am like. I am about better life through chemistry. No, I don't take anything ever, like ever. In fact, I had a back spasm yesterday.

I've had back surgery and it hurt. It's like, I'm not taking Advil. No, I'm just totally opposed to that. That's a whole nother conversation. But yeah, I'm with, who's that weird actor in Scientology? I can't remember, Tom Cruise. You had the reach for Tom Cruise's name? I couldn't remember.

I'm sorry, I couldn't remember. He didn't just come to mind? I'm sorry, I couldn't remember. But he gave some speech on TV a few years ago, or several years ago, 10 years ago, about how SSRIs and stuff is evil. And everyone's like, he's crazy! But I was like the only person. It's like, you go, Tom Cruise! You were on the wrong side of that.

No, dude, I was so... I'm all about that. Anyway, no, I really felt that it was destiny as I felt that most things are. I think there is a plan. Anyway, I just want to thank you. That was like the most interesting conversation I've had in a long time and I sincerely enjoyed it.

I believe in conversation. Amen. I appreciate an invitation to your house. Thank you. And the lines are open. I'll be telling you how much everybody hates me for this because you won't be paying attention. No, I won't.

At all. You'll be laughing, I'll be crying. But I won't be. This was the right thing to do. Thank you, Tucker. Thank you for giving Conversation a chance. Tucker Carlson and Chris Cuomo can speak together. Any two people can find common concern.

Let's get after it.