The Chris Cuomo Project - Tyler Perry

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

Tyler Perry (actor, writer, producer, and director) joins Chris Cuomo for a wide-ranging discussion about struggle and suffering, including how life’s trauma can be a necessary evil on the journey to reaping great rewards, the need to sit with your feelings, how to raise a generation of young men who feel comfortable expressing themselves, the importance of rejecting the concept of “tough love,” life lessons from Norman Lear, the gift of saying goodbye to negative people in your life, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So nice, we're having him twice. Tyler Perry must be another big movie. Nope. Tyler Perry is talking about what you probably haven't heard him discuss before. And it's not just the travails of his own trauma and his own upbringing, which would be enough. It's about what is often ignored yet always shared. Struggle. Suffering. You have it in your life.

And if you don't think you do, you're just missing it. And it's certainly going to come. But we don't talk about what is probably the most relatable thing among us. Hey, I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to another episode of The Chris Cuomo Project with a very heavy-duty guest who's talking about something even more important than him and his career and his fame and fortune, Tyler Perry. So much good work coming out of him, so much success, but he was anxious to take the chance to sit with me for a good long talk about struggle and suffering and what it has meant in his life and what it probably means in yours, and yet we don't talk about it. And why we don't talk about

it? Why do we ignore such a shared experience, something that's so formative, so dominant, so important? Well, there's bad reason for that, but there's also instructive reason in that. And Tyler Perry knows both sides of the coin, the vagaries of life and trauma and transition and change and how you get to where you want to be by going through what you must and how to do that. Really important stuff. I learned a lot. I hope you do as how to do that. Really important stuff. I learned a lot. I hope you do as well.

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You see the website. You'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. All right. So, here's what I want to talk to you about. Struggle and suffering. What does that, what are those words? What does that concept mean in your life? You know, as I think about struggle and as I think about suffering, I think of two things, right? One being necessary evil and the other being the other side of that, which is the great reward. that had I not been through the things that I went through growing up in my life, I don't know where I would be right now. I needed to have some of those things happen to make me the man that I

am. In trying to understand it, have you understand what I mean by that? When people ask me about failures, how many failures I've had in my life, I can't really point to any because what I point to is the example and the lesson I learned in that moment, which further generated some more information or segue into whatever I was supposed to be doing in the first place or headed into that direction. Does that make sense? Does that make sense to you? It does. The question becomes, is that reality or just a function of perspective? People will say, I got here because of what I lived through, or maybe you got here despite what you lived through.

So why do you believe that the truth for you is you needed them, that they were opportunities versus just you deciding to believe that to not deal with the reality of those things? And I understand that's a very good question, but for me, and I can only speak for me and how I deal with it, how I move through it all, but for me, everything is a buy-in Like I look at all the pain, the suffering, everything I went through as a buy-in for something, right? And this has helped me to be able to move through a lot of it. What am I paying for in this situation? Why did I go through this?

What was this about? And every time, Chris, that I've been able to understand that, find that lesson, get that answer, I found myself in a much better position on the other side of it. Now, as difficult as it able to understand that, find that lesson, get that answer, I found myself in a much better position on the other side of it. Now, as difficult as it was to move through, once I got the lesson in it all, that is the moment that I was like, okay, that's what that was for. I can forgive that moment and let it go. Or I can try and understand that moment so that I can have the freedom on this side. So I believe that in everything that we're

doing on this planet, there's a buy-in. Because if you look at the world or just look at the universal law, there's up, there's down, there's in, there's out, there's east, there's west, there's an opposite to everything. So to all of this suffering and pain, there's got to be an opposite to it. And I wouldn't be the person that I am or I couldn't be in this seat if I didn't believe that because I would have given up a long time ago. There are two things that are going to surprise the audience. One is that this is the topic of conversation that you think of with Tyler Perry. Yes.

Why? We talk about this all the time. He was a fundamental friend to me when I was going through what I was going through. And I agree with so much of what he says because I heard it from him and he made me think about it. The second reason we're talking about it is that we all struggle. Everyone will suffer in life. And we do not talk about it. We don't talk about how to do it.

We try to avoid it. We try to pretend it didn't really happen. And I think it's a fundamental block individually and collectively. You told me once when we were talking, I was like, oh, and this and that. And I don't want to lament to you about this, but I, you know, I got a deal. And you said, listen, life is pain management. You've got to figure out what to do with your situation, feel what you feel, but then do what you have to do. And you helped me realize that there is a choice when you're faced with something. I'm not saying that you can get through it the way Tyler Perry

did. I'm not. He's a special guy. He's got special talents. He's got special rigor. But you always, and every one of us does have a choice when we're facing something. And I think sometimes we don't want to accept that. Yeah. And unfortunately, I think that people who don't want to accept it, and listen, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not clinically trained. I'm just talking about what I've observed and noticed and learned over the years. People who don't want to accept it or people who can't accept it usually find themselves arrested in that moment. They stay in that moment. And it's very life like water, like rivers. It's moving. It's

always moving. It's always in the flow. So if you find yourself arrested in a certain spot because of that, is that bit of pain, that bit of suffering has, has shackled you to it, then, then what is there to look forward to? What is there, uh, uh, ahead? So it's very important for me anyway, and me being a man of faith. And, um, I was talking to somebody about this earlier because, um, maybe I shouldn't say this, but I will. Um, they were like, you know, I'm like, I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I, you know, I, I pray. And they were like, which Christ, the Christ that, that wants immigrants to go back to where they came from or the Christ that loves everybody? So it was funny in that moment. But just the understanding of if I didn't have the things that my mother gave me, which is the foundation of faith, because no matter what hell was going on through her house, and this is where I get my example, whatever hell was going on in her house, she would take me to church with her. And I could see her relief, relieved, and crying and praying

and singing. And I thought, wow. So she gave me a foundation that when things get tough, I can pray. I feel badly for people who don't have some sort of foundation to cope. If your parents or someone who was supposed to didn't give you something to help you make it through, I see those people struggle a lot. So I'm grateful to my mother for giving me faith. And it may not be for everybody, but for me, that is what works. And that's all that matters. You know, forget about the you know the the jesus who wants people to go back that's all about us twisting religion uh to make it what we need it to be in there that's a perverse uh demonstration of it but it's very real i think whatever works is good as long as you're not hurting somebody else, whatever works for you that doesn't hurt somebody else.

Okay. So you disagree. Oh yeah. Or that doesn't do harm to you. I mean, obviously, you know, you could take, I go to take in a handful of Klonopin before I did this interview and I wouldn't, I have to go back into my mind about what I've lived through, but I don't see that as progress. I see that as self-medicating pain, and I understand why people do that, but it doesn't necessarily help you get to a better place. Sometimes it just can keep you in one place, and maybe that's good enough. All I'm saying is, I think it's so important for us to talk about this because, to me, it is the most neglected common dynamic that there is. I don't care what anybody shares in common with me or you.

It doesn't matter. It's a big part of our bond. Um, you're dealing with something and all pain is personal. Um, you know, my, my, my kid the other day, my father had a big, uh, tough love vein in him. I always felt it was his shortcut to parenting. He wasn't a natural parent. Neither am I. He wasn't a nurturer. Neither am I. He really was about his work. So he would just hit me with big infusions of tough love, make sure that I was insecure and on my game and realizing how much more I had to do. And if I were hurt, he'd say he was the, your leg hurts. What about the guy with no leg? You know what I mean? You know, you don't like your sneakers. What about the guy with no shoes? And I've learned to reject that. If it works for you, great. All pain is

personal. I stubbed my toe. Tyler tells me that he dislocated his knee. It doesn't make my toe feel any better. And it's okay to have pain. I feel that we run away from it in our society, that we feel like we got to meet a standard in order to be able to struggle, to admit our pain. And I think it holds so many of us back. Yeah, because it's also all relative, right? Like I say this in one of my shows or something about all of these people growing up in the same house, all children, four kids grew up in the same house, but each one of them turned out very differently. And what I found is that even in my household, you know, my father was really pretty abusive to me and my sister, but my other sister, he adored. So all of, all of our experiences were very

different. Like I can even running this company, there's some people that I could walk up to and say, listen, what you did was awful. You need to fix that. I am unhappy with you. And they get it straight. And then there are others that can just say, you know, if you do this and this, it'll be better. And they could have both made the same mistake, but it's about the personalities, right? So, and I hear everything you're saying, but I tell you what I found really important with it, no matter what side you fall on, is the ability to be able to sit in it, not medicated, not drinking, no drugs, just sit in what it is and really dig into how you feel about it.

Like my biggest struggle right now, and I haven't talked about this publicly, is compassion fatigue. I didn't know what it was. I'm not a person who has depression, but there was certain times of year I fall into the sadness of just like, what is this? And I can't get it off of me. What is it? I just, nothing really matters. I don't want to talk to anybody. I just want to be by myself. And a friend of mine asked, have you ever heard of compassion fatigue? And I went, I looked up the definition, just sure enough, every symptom I was going through. And in a nutshell, what it is, is when you give so much of yourself to others and everything for everybody else, you end up not having anything for yourself. The great thing is an easy cure. Pull away and refill yourself.

For me, that's going to the mountains, being in nature, disconnecting from everything digital, and just getting my mind right, right? But it's so important to be able to sit in it. That's what we cannot do. A lot of us. How do I feel? How do I really feel? Especially men. How do I really feel about this? This hurts. I'm in pain. I'm angry. It's okay for us as men to have those kinds of feelings and thoughts and express them, right? Without just saying, okay, kind of feelings and thoughts and express them, right? Without just saying, okay, you fell and hurt yourself, go get a Band-Aid, right? But even my son, who is eight years old, I encourage him to say how he feels.

Now, my son is a boy's boy. He wants to climb and jump and burn up things. He wants to know how fast things are going. And I want him to be all of his masculinity. It's very important to me that he has all of that. But at the same time, I want to know, I'll sit him down and say, how did that make you feel when that kid said that? Well, what did you think when that happened? Because it's very important that we raise a generation of men that can express themselves

and still be every bit of their masculine testosterone self. And you get in trouble for saying that, but that's how I feel. But it's the truth. Billy Joel had that song, Keeping the Faith. Found out I could dance and still look macho. There's always a duality, and it comes to mores. And I know that having this conversation, given how my persona is portrayed, people will come after me. He's soft.

He's lost his mind. He's trying to get into self-help now. You know, what's wrong with Fredo? And I know that's all out there because the media exists in an almost completely reductive and negative capacity right now. We're always trying to take one another down. I get it. I still think it's worth it. And I want to share one little personal anecdote about Tyler's family that I lived without anybody knowing that I was friends with him. And then I want to talk to him about how he put this in his kit. So I am trying to learn to snowboard. I wanted to move away from skiing. My son snowboards. He's a beautiful athlete. I'm an okay skier. I started late. I'm okay. So I was like, let me switch over to snowboarding, try something new. I have a coach. I am a human snowball going down this thing. And all I am is expletives and snow and near dislocations of knees and shoulders. And he says to me at one point, he comes up next to me and he's like kind of sliding down the mountain in

front of me the whole time watching me. And he says, don't worry, brother, you'll get better. You'll get better. And I'm on the ground every time he's saying that to me. And like once I finally, I'm at the lift. I'm like, what is the, what the, I'm getting better. Shouldn't you wait till I do something good. And then you can say, see, you're getting better. And he said, no, this kid said it to me. And it was Tyler's son. This guy was coaching Tyler's son and the kid would make mistakes, but he would get up and he'd say, that's all right. I'll get better coach. I'll get better. I'll get better at this. How did you get that into him? Instead of the typical, this sucks. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm never going to be any

good at this. Everybody's judging me. I have to go. How did you get the kid to a place or is it just his character where he's like, this sucks i'll get better yeah his his there was this there's this one moment where he was playing uh basketball and it was his first time and he was with these kids and trebecca you know and it's you know the kids playing basketball they're kind of playing around with it and he came he comes off the court and he's like he's he thought he was great he thought it it was great. His mom's like, no, you're really terrible. He was devastated. He's like, what do you mean I was bad? I was bad. What do you mean? So we took him over to Harlem, had him play with some kids. He got his ass really good.

And he really learned that I'll get better. I'll get better. So, so yeah. It's such an important lesson. Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, like people like you and me to different degrees, different experiences, but it doesn't matter. All pain is personal. I was raised that nothing was good enough. Um, that success is failure averted. All right. You didn't screw it up this time. You got good ratings last night. This movie was well-received. This show is good. Uh, but the next one, uh, you're right there on the precipice of his going downhill, maybe at a reaction formation. There's so many people in our generation with similar this show is good. But the next one, you're right there on the precipice of going downhill. Maybe at a reaction formation, there's so many people in our generation with similar kind of tough love backgrounds to the extent that there was love at all.

Now you're all over your kids. Everything's great. They can't do anything wrong. Everybody gets a trophy. It's like an overcorrection. And I think that that goes to the point of this conversation, which is no, the kid is going to struggle. The kid is going to suffer. The kid is going to not be enough, not be accepted, not be number one. And you have to deal with it again and again. And I don't think we're preparing people by making them feel that's not true. And that's the thing. I have an employee that works for me and he's he's a he's a good old boy from down in Georgia. He comes and he's like, Tyler, I'm so damn mad. Man, I came home the other day and my daughter got a trophy. But the problem with her trophy is they gave everybody in damn school a trophy. Everybody got the trophy, but she was the best. And I asked the teacher, why? The teacher goes, well, we just want to make sure

everybody feels equal. No, the rest of the kids suck. My kids should have had the trophy, right? So with all of that, with my son, it's just really important that he knows that you're not going to win all the time. Because if we do that to our kids, who are we raising? We're raising people to believe that everything you do, that mediocrity is okay. And that's not the kind of child I want to raise. I got one shot at this. He showed up really late in my life. I was 45 when he was born. I feel like I had my own grandkid.

So I want to make sure that whoever I leave, whatever, when I'm dead and gone, that this person on the planet has great morals, great values, but also has a really clear sense of self so that when these hard times comes, when struggles comes, and they will, that he knows what to do and he knows what's inside of him.

Why do you think we run away from one of the most common experiences as much as we do? One of the reasons I love your work, and this is true for a lot of storytellers, so many stories focus around struggle and suffering. And I use those two words for a reason. So I'm like obsessed with this topic because not only do I believe it's so key to so many of my own personal limitations and enduring struggles, things where like I'm now 52, I'm going to be 53. different iterations, but same shit. Struggle is the active process, okay? Suffering is the condition. Suffering is the condition where you're going to be trying to get out from under something on a regular basis. But we only talk about the problems in society. We point them out all the time. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with this? What's wrong with them? Never had to get

through it. And I think it goes back to we're more drawn to the problem than the solution. We'd rather be in pain than be obsessed with getting out of it. Am I right about that to any degree? And if so, why? Yeah. I'm making notes here because you're dropping so much stuff that I want to talk about. You talk about your different iterations, same shit kind of keeps showing. You talk about your different iterations, same shit kind of keeps showing up, but there's different iterations of the same thing. What I found in my life, honest to God,

is every time something showed up, if I learned that lesson, if I really was clear on what that lesson was, it never happened again in my life. Not in the same iteration, not in a, it was everything I dealt with has always been different once I learned the lesson. If I didn't learn the lesson, yes,

that kept showing up over and over and over and over and over again until I realized I have to pay attention to this because I've got to figure this out. That's why when something goes wrong, the first thing I'm going, show me the lesson. God, where's the lesson? Because I don't want to go through this again. What am I supposed to learn here? So my hope is that anybody who's going through that and keeps showing up, what is the lesson? Get to the lesson. Once you learn the lesson, I've never seen it repeat. And you talked about pain and people always wanted to go back to the pain. Listen, for me, the first 28 years of my life were miserable.

I was in hell. I hated my father with everything I had in me. He was the most awful human being. And a lot of my motivation for the first 28 years of my life were I'm going to make enough money to take care of my mother and I'm going to show him. I'm going to prove to him. And the anger and rage that I had toward him

was the thing that drove me. It drove my success. It made me work my ass off because nothing I ever did was ever good enough for him. So I wanted to show him I could do what I could do. Well, carrying that for so long was awful. And one day we had a horrible argument and I got to say the things as a man that the little boy could never say to him. And I said how he treated me, how awful I thought he was. And at the end of it, I heard myself say, I forgive you. Didn't even know where that came from. But what I found, Chris, after that is I could not function because the very thing that I was plugged into for my energy was all negative toward him. Once I let that go, I was like a car trying to find a different kind of fuel. If I'm unleaded, and now all of a sudden

I need diesel to run. So it was a strange, at 28, it was a strange time of trying to master through refocusing that energy. What is my energy source now? How do I get from that anger and that hatred to something that is good and positive? And I worked really hard on focusing on the good and how do I help and how do I lead and how do I lean on the good things in me and how do I encourage myself, right?

So all of those, so when you talk about people wanting to sit in the pain, it's usually connected to something that is their energy, their source, that something that somebody did or something said, or my mommy said, what daddy said. And as long as you're holding on to that source, I feel, and again, I'm not a psychologist, I feel that it's going to be very, very difficult to move through and learn those lessons and stop getting those same iterations. Look, they have clinical understanding in psychology as a soft science of things because of however present they are.

You know, you don't have to be a psychologist to understand life. We're all living it. You know, especially like the Viagra commercial says, I'm in the age of knowing, which really cracked me up the first time I saw it. I was like, yeah, I know I need the pill. That's what I know. which really cracked me up the first time I saw it. I was like, yeah, I know I need the pill. That's what I know. So the age of knowing is, all right, I don't have expertise, but I have a ton of experience. And there are a couple of keys, and he's not going to say this for himself,

but I can as his friend. You may hear this and be like, yeah, I have a tough time finding the lesson. Yeah, most of us do. It takes a lot of work and you have to be committed and you have to put yourself into it. And Tyler does that. That's why he's where he is. Not everybody can do and be where he is. And that's okay. The standard is always going to be subjective to you, but the tools are the same. You got to want to do the work. And that has been a thing for me is that what I definitely know now is that every situation I'm in, there's a choice. And I'm not saying drink, don't drink. I'm not talking about binary behaviors.

I'm saying how you feel about something. So somebody will come up with a situation and the particulars don't matter. Oh, you must be really pissed. Now, now they know what it is. Now you get your this. Now, you know, now there's no, no. That's how you think I should feel about it. But maybe that's not the best way for me to feel about it. Tyler explained that in a concept that I'm still trying to unpack right now. He heard himself say to his father, I forgive you.

Didn't know where it came from. That's because it's not for his dad. It's not for the people I have forgiven in my life who have hurt me bad. It's for me to help me get past it, to get to a better place. And we make a mistake all the time for each other. I'm Tyler's friend. I said, whoa, whoa, don't forgive him. He needs to say he's sorry. No, that's me putting it on him when the reality for all of us is, what do you do to get yourself to the best place? Forgiveness seems like weakness,

and it isn't. It's strength because it's you moving on, but I'll tell you where I can't do it. And I've had these discussions with my brother and with much more learned people who are philosophers and theologists, self-forgiveness is fundamental to change. And you have to be strong enough or tap into something that allows you to give yourself a break. And I have zero ability to do it. Now, I believe I have a great case. I say, well, but I know why I did what I did. And I know why what I said hurt my fill in the blank, sister, brother, mom, you know, anybody, anybody can be vulnerable to asshole-itis. And I'll say, so I can't forgive myself. I can't. I put myself in that position. I did that stupid shit. I got to pay for it. There is no forgiveness, but I would do it for anybody else. Why? It allows me to move on.

I got to pay for it. There is no forgiveness. But I would do it for anybody else. Why? It allows me to move on. What role has that played for you in your life in terms of you unpacking that, okay, I have to treat myself differently, see myself differently, no matter what anybody else is saying, to get to where I want to be? Yeah, but growing up in a household where I was told I was a stupid MF or you're SOB, you're dumb, you're this, you're... I've had all of that in my head. So growing up as a child, holding all of those voices in your head from people that are supposed to love and protect you will cause you to

not be able to hear your own voice say, you're okay. It's okay to let go. It's okay for you to forgive yourself. Because as you were talking about your father, who was, I'm sure, a great man, but as you're talking about him, you know, giving that tough love, or you've hurt your foot, but somebody else has feet, right? All of those voices, man, they live in our head forever. And it's very difficult for our own voice even as men as as women as we grow up into adulthood to be able to drown those voices out if we haven't exercised them got them out of our head if we haven't got to a point where we believe that we are not what they say because it's hard to to feel you can forgive yourself if you believe that he said I was a stupid MF, so I must be that, right?

So it took me a while to get, again, when I forgave him, getting all that negative out of me and also understanding that those voices were still there. They repeat. They're on repeat constantly. So being able to get them out and replace them in my head going, no, I'm not that. I'm a good person. I can forgive myself. Yes, you made a mistake. Yes, that was wrong.

You apologize to that person or whomever with the deepest sincerity in your heart, whether they forgive you or not, mean it from the bottom of your heart, never do it again and move forward. And don't judge yourself based on those one thing here, one thing there, one thing there. There are many people in my life who I've let make a lot of mistakes and I'll let people make a million mistakes. Just don't make the same mistake over and over and over and over again, expecting forgiveness. So I think the biggest part, Chris, is undoing those voices in your head. So Norman Lear gave me a great button on that idea. And again, you know that

no matter who you are, no matter where you are listening to this or hearing or watching this right now, you know, you relate because we are this, you know, that expression in it together, you know, maybe it doesn't apply where we put it in place for politics and different social constructions, but when it comes to pain and struggle and suffering, there's nobody out there where this is not only true, but it's the focus of your reality. It's why there's so much anger and disaffection and projecting that on the people who are, you believe, making you feel in pain, or you're giving them that power, or you're letting someone else give you that agency of saying this is someone else's fault or something else's fault. Norman Lear says to me,

every time you encounter a bad situation or a bad interaction with somebody, which happens to me all the time and sometimes of my making, because I'm obsessed with having better relationships with the people who've been so good to me, you know, whether it's my kids, I mean, they're not that good to me, but that's not their job. My job is to be good to them. You know, my wife, my friends, the family I choose, the family I have. So what? Now what? He said, you process everything through that filter. So this happened. OK, so what? Not that it doesn't matter. Not doesn't matter. But OK, so what is this? Is this is this money? You know, did you lose money? Do you got to pay money? Do you need money? OK, is that what it is? Or did you fuck up? You know, did you hurt somebody? What is it? And what are you going to do about it? Um, and even if that means what you're going to do is nothing and you're going to process

it and feel it and realize it and take a path because you need to go in a different direction. take a path because you need to go in a different direction. And that is a great tool that we do not use in our society. What we do is dwell, not what Tyler said, not sitting in a motion to try to figure out how to process it and learn from it and move. We exploit it for its negativity. This person's bad. These people are bad. This is worse. I see all of that as an outgrowth of our inability to connect, to struggle and suffering and have compassion. And I just wish we were as obsessed with this as we are with how big somebody's ass is in society in terms of a measurement of their value. in terms of a measurement of their value. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or their bank account. Yeah.

You talk about Norma Lear. He said something to me recently that I was blown away by. Because, you know, he's 100, going on 101. And I asked him, but, you know, you get a chance to ask a 100-year-old man something, you ask him,

I say, I asked him, I said, what are you looking forward to? And he said, tomorrow. Which, as simple as it is, it's such the perfect metaphor for all of this. If there's a tomorrow for you, then you get an opportunity to get up, try and figure it out, try and fix the things that are wrong and try to move forward. I'm just not the type of man that wants to live my life in the right now where I am and be comfortable. I feel like, as again, life is moving and growing and we're going to go through things. And I don't feel like the wisdoms that I've gained over the years are only for me. That's why I put them inside these crass, over-the-top movies with

the big moo-moo and the hellers, right? Because I know that there's a contingent of people who come from where I come from who can't afford to get in the Range Rover and go to therapy, but they can sit and lean on this, hear this character and this moo-moo and this ridiculous outfit and hear something that sits within them

that makes them want to heal or be better because that Medea is based on those kinds of women that I grew up with because I was talking to Michelle Obama and I'll never forget this. After reading her book, I was interviewing her and something hit me. I realized that I did not know any women, any black women growing up that were not abused, not one. And every one of those women were able to go to a character, a person like Medea for wisdom and for help and for therapy. So, but to understand that, that I didn't know one that didn't have tremendous suffering, that didn't have tremendous pain, these women were remarkable in how they were able to navigate that. And my mother included helped me

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this expectation that you're probably dealing with something. You know what I mean? How's it going? How's what going? You know what I mean? There's got to be something. It's all good. I'm okay.

And almost all the time, that's not true. Almost nobody is ever okay. Everything's good. That's almost never true. We just don't access it. Yeah, because when people say I'm good, it's because. That's almost never true. We just don't access it. Yeah. Because when people say I'm good, it's because you realize nobody really cares. Nobody really sees you. Nobody really knows what you're going through. So you just hold on to it and try and move through it, right? We're at a time in this society, man, that is so freaking

scary to me because I have an eight-year-old. I'm 53. I will be fine. I could ride it on out. But because I have an eight-year-old, I wonder what I'm going to be leaving to him and your kids and other kids. Because we're at a time where, in 2023, where we have a governor of a state that can watch and hear about five people being murdered, including a nine-year-old, and say, oh, they were illegal immigrants. Just dismiss it. It makes me wonder, where is the humanity in us? Where is the good in us? And someone said something that I never forgot because I was so frustrated because there's so much negativity all the time. We're inundated with it. We're bombarded with it. It's coming left and right. And even if it's on your phone,

if you choose one negative thing, our government allows 50 other thousand negative things to continue to feed into your soul, right? There are other countries that don't allow that, and that are not communist countries. I was in London and every website I went to, you had to authorize, do you want them to be followed? Why isn't that happening here, right? But all of that to say this one person said to me, because I was so heartbroken that everything is so negative and everybody seems to be just in these silos. And he said, the reason why you don't hear so much from people who are happy is because they're happy. They're not even thinking about it.

They're not even getting into those arguments, those base conversations that don't matter. They're happy with themselves. So I wish that we could get to a point where we could have more people talking about happiness and joy. And also when saying, when someone says, how are you? They mean it.

Like, how are you? Like when I ask that question, I don't throw words away. I know how important they are. When I ask, I want to know, you know? I absolutely know. Tyler had no reason to reach out for me. There was no benefit to him.

And it was years ago now. But he took an interest in me and what was going on because he's a helper. And every one of us has the ability to do that in our lives. And we all know it. And you may do it. You may do it all the time. Or you may not because you don't think you has the ability to do that in our lives. And we all know it, and you may do it. You may do it all the time. Or you may not because you don't think you have the power to. But that's not true because I guarantee you there are people all over your life,

whether they're your kids. Like I say to my kids all the time when I screw up, right, because I'm a hothead and I'm a warrior and all this other stupid shit that I justify when I could just be better. And I will say to them, listen, I am so consumed with you not having the same weaknesses and flaws that I have, that when I see anything in you that triggers me like that, to use a popular expression, I come at you as if I were coming at myself. And I don't mean that. And you think, oh,

don't put that kind of psychobabble on kids. They can't handle it. Yes, they can. Because why? Consistency. One thing I got going for me, and I know you have going for you. I'm around my kids the way was never the case for me growing up. My parents had to work. They were out there doing other things. I'm around my kids all the time. So I get more at-bats. So, you know, for every harsh situation where, you know, my son and I are nose to nose, he's my height now. He ain't ready, Tyler. Don't kid yourself. He's not ready. But we will go nose to nose, and I will say to him, and he'd be like, boy, one day I'm going to put you in. I say, that's why I train, brother. I wait for that day, and you're going to learn some lesson. You know, now I'm going to have another

at-bat where I say to him, I love you in a way that will never go away. It doesn't matter what you do to me. You can throw me down a flight of stairs. As soon as I'm able to speak, I'm going to love you. You have to understand that too. And everybody has the ability to do that to the people around them. And it's just not rewarded. One of the reasons I love your movies is that they leave people feeling good and understanding things. Sometimes you laugh to the point of crying. Sometimes you laugh and you cry. But they do that. In our society, there's very little messaging about that right now.

And when there's someone putting out for it, you know what people in my business are doing, Tyler? I'm going through your garbage. You know, we're trying to find out why this cat isn't who he or she's been made out to be. But I want to go back to something you said, and I want to make sure you heard yourself say it, how you see something in your child that reminds you of them and you go after that. But that's more about you than them. The way you approach it, the way you try and use a sledgehammer for something that may be a scalpel is more needed for a scalpel is your choice, right? So it's the same way with my son who is tall already at eight years old. So he's going to be tall. He's going to be big. I'm going to be much older. I will pay somebody to beat his ass before I let him take me down. Right.

So, so I understand what you mean by that, but I just want to just challenge you on just the approach of it, understanding that you're talking to yourself first. Like my son is my healer in so many ways because when I could hug him or go out and drive go-karts and go mudding with him, it's the things that nobody ever did with me as a little boy. So I get to see him. I get to get down on his level, his eye level, and have conversations with him. So it's healing. But I also understand those triggers as well. Yeah, you're totally right.

It's totally projection. And one of the things that pisses me off so much is that I know it and I still do it, which, you know, is just that's that's the human condition. You know, I'm trying. I'm trying. And, you know, it's funny you said my son is my healer. You know, I did a piece about my son as a mentor. Now, obviously, a mentor is, you know, that's not what we think as a kid. But yes, because my kid, a mentor is someone who instructs you in a way of life that is valuable, right? We all get that. My son did that for me. Watching him, watching his natural confidence, watching him understand things about himself and about the world and then knowing he's loved and doesn't matter what's going on. He knows he's loved. He knows he can come to his

mother. He knows he can come to his mother. He knows he can come to me. He knows we're going to be there. We may not be able to fix it. May take time. You know, he may be in trouble, but we are there. It is absolute. And also I see that in these meaningful relationships, I love how when someone's in trouble, I'm at my best.

I'm not a great friend in fair weather. You know what I mean? Like I'm not a great hang. You know what I mean? I'm not a great small talk guy. I can't party because people got cameras on me all the time. You know, like I can't, I'm not really that guy. I don't gamble, you know, stuff like that. But when there's trouble or you need something or there's a threat or it's real, I am fully activated. And it means everything to me. And do I expect it back? I try not to because you're setting yourself up for disappointment and I try not to do that, but it is highly unusual. I rarely ask for anything in my life.

It's just there. I'm such an easy read, I guess, that the people in my life just know, like, I got to come at him, you know, about this. I got to talk to Chris about this. I'm coming. I'm coming to his house. I'm finding him where he is on the boat. I'm taking him fishing.

I saw his show tonight or I heard his podcast. I do not like that. I'm finding him where he is on the boat. I'm taking him fishing. I saw his show tonight, or I heard his podcast. I do not like that. I'm coming for him. I just read this thing. Let me reach out. People are very good to me who are close to me. But I know that that's the natural way is that the people who love you do the most for you when things are worse, but we don't do it collectively. We hold people down and we separate them by their suffering to marginalize and make ourselves better and make one group better than another. And I think it's so unnatural, but here we are. Yes. And to that point, people like you and like me and lots of people who are watching this could probably relate. People always think we're fine. They always think we're okay.

They always think that we've got it worked out. They don't necessarily know that or are even able to pay attention to the quiet calls for just help, because we are that to so many people, which goes back to what I was talking about, that compassion fatigue. When you are that for everyone and everybody's plugged into you, it drains you extremely quickly. And if you're not careful, you'll get below a place, a baseline where you have nothing for anyone. So again, with that, I have learned to pull away, make sure that I'm okay so that I can continue to give and to help. But also, Chris, I'd like to say it's okay to voice that.

But I tell you what the problem is, when you voice it to someone, hey, I'm having this issue and that person doesn't show up the way you would or even show up, it can really devastate you because being someone who never asked for anything, I mean, I can ask for the littlest thing. And if someone doesn't show up with that little thing, I'm like, after all that I do for so many people, you can't show up with this one little thing. So I understand the funk that that can put you in

a thousand percent, but it's still okay to find the people in your life that you can ask for and say to and make mention of. Here's how I feel. This is what I need. How do I move through this? That's important. Find your people. Get rid of people who don't fix it, even if they're family. If they are not part of what makes you your best, got to go.

I have the gift of goodbye. I am really good at saying goodbye because if I realize that somebody's in my life that is not for the betterment of me, that is not, and listen, you don't even have to be perfect, but trying, if I see trying and effort, that's good. That's good, we can work it out. But I realized a long time ago,

you will kill people trying to drag them to an altitude that they're not ready for. So I've learned to just let people go if they're not ready. My father, the man who raised me, I found out at 40 that he's not my biological father, but the man who raised me, he gave me a shelter, money, food. The lights were never off, but he was an awful person. So today he's in his 80s. I make sure he has a house. He gets a check every month. He gets food. The lights were never off, but he was an awful person. So today he's in his eighties. I make sure he has a house. He gets a check every month. He gets food. He gets everything you need. I've forgiven him, but I don't want to have anything to do with him because too much damage has been done. And to bring that into my life, to bring that negativity, to cloud all of that into

this good space I'm in doesn't work for me. So it's okay to say goodbye. It really is okay to say goodbye. And family will give you a hard time, especially coming from where I come. What do you mean? What? He's changed. He's this. He's that. He's a, I don't care. I'm happy. I've got to joy. And I'm staying here at joy. There's nothing wrong with that because it works for you. You're not hurting yourself. You're not hurting anybody else. And at the end of the day, they're doing what we tend to do, which is they're putting their feelings and their experience on you to make it your own. And that is not love. And it's often not helpful.

And, you know, look, it can be hard. All this is hard. You know, I always I say to people all the time, you know, whatever it is that we're talking about, you know, even if it's something simple, like, you know, being in shape is simple. Tyler and I talk about this, you know, on a regular basis. You know, you eat less, you move more, you'll get in shape. But it's hard. You know what I mean? So it's simple, but it's hard. Assuming you're healthy enough to be active. Being nice is simple, but it's hard. Being good to yourself is simple, but it's hard. We just don't emphasize the right things. Like, I know, it's so funny. You don't pay attention to this. You're more emotionally sophisticated than I am.

But this is different because everybody loves you. But I have experiences where I put stuff out in this podcast that I'd never do on TV. And this is absolutely an outgrowth of what you helped me through. You know, it's not like I had cancer. I just got shit canned. But I was so shocked. Tyler knows all this. And I've told you guys, too.

But I was so shocked by how it happened and what happened. And I didn't see it coming when I was someone who, as much of a self-loather as I may be, I've always prized myself for having pretty good acuity about what's happening in the media and political world. But you get to a place where, okay, these people were here for me. Now there's only one of two possibilities. Tyler was here for me. Maybe it was good for him.

Maybe it was good for me. But if it's not that, all right, that's the kind of person he was. Or Tyler wasn't there for me because he or she can't handle that. So I had to make choices. All right. If it's all right, Tyler can handle it. And he wasn't there for me. He's got to go. I love him. I'll help him. I'm not, I don't want to hurt him because that's not forgiveness. I don't want to let him be active in my mind of like waiting for an opportunity to take him down. And if he's not capable of it, then I've got to put him in that place in my life

that he can't, I can't be that close to him because I'm going to need things. And he's not that guy. Yeah. I have a friend who went through something really, really awful, very public and horrible. And, you know, his wife was, you know, know involved in in his family and it affected him greatly right and he was the man so to see him um broken and nobody show up for him like all of the people that he thought would show up for him would have he thought they would but they didn't and it devastated him because he was just like i can't't believe this. I can't believe this is happening. And it was really, really public and really, really nasty. And I explained to him that a lot of these people can't show up for you because they're in their same situation. They can't stand with you because of what's going on in their own lives. And if they stood with you, then it would shine a light

on what they're dealing with. He couldn't wrap his mind around it until recently. He started seeing some of those other people that he thought would be there fall off. And he's like, oh, my God, you were so right about this. I was like, yeah, so you have to be careful how you judge people who can and can't be there for you. Because I love the analogy that you just made about do you have the capacity to be there? And in what capacity can you be there? And you have to also understand that people in your lives are on different levels. So some people may have the level and the capacity to take it all

in and run in. Will Smith said this after the Oscar there, and every time he talks about me, he talks about it. He said, I'm the first responder. I'm running in. I'm running in to make sure. And I'm like, what happened? How do I, well, are you okay? Where's Chris? You know, I just want to make sure everything's okay. But there are other people who, you know, I have a family member who she completely goes against the wall. She has to, she can do nothing. She can't even function in it at all.

So it's about personalities and what people can bring as well. I've learned the power of positivity, of, you know, most of the time now I check in, I'm checking in just to see what's going on. How are you doing? Let you know that I appreciate that you're in my life and you're there for me. And that's new for me. I used to just be like, you know, people would call me, especially when I was like really in crisis. Every time the phone rang, I was like, what happened? What is it now?

You know, every time I hear from somebody because I'm so waiting for somebody to attack me every five minutes. But I've made it a practice because it feeds the parts of me that I want to be more present. That's part of the struggle, who your people are, what you practice about yourself, how you practice your behaviors. We just don't put a lot of time in it. Now, there's one last thing I want to ask you about, and then I'll let you go. And I really appreciate you for this and all the good you're going to do for people by giving them your perspective. There is a temptation to not want to say that you are doing well or things are good in your life because we've become a society. I don't know

if you see it as much as I do, but I always thought the American dream was being able to succeed or fail on your own merits, make your money, assuming it's a fair situation and have as much of it as you want and do with it what you want. Now we have the elites and it's rich is bad. The powerful are bad. Money is bad. When I always thought that was part of the dream. I mean, I was raised by a guy with a pathological dislike for money. The only way to make sure Mario Cuomo wouldn't show up at your event was to offer to pay him. But I've never had any problems with people who are rich. You know, I mean, I look at how they spend their money and if they're doing the right thing with it, amen, amen. But it's hard these days to say, you know what? I feel really good about this. I'm

really good about where I am. I'm really good about this thing because someone's going to say, you know what? I feel really good about this. I'm really good about where I am. I'm really good about this thing because someone's going to say, oh, look at you. Look how tone deaf you are, all the suffering and the pain around you. But that's because that's what we want to reinforce, Tyler. I don't think that we're making people's lives better by spreading misery. I think that hearing positive messages and knowing that this guy's successful, this guy's doing well, this guy's family is where he needs it to be. That's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it is. It is. And from where I sit, let me see the most diplomatic way I can say this. I'm not apologizing for shit. I have worked my ass off, man. I came from nothing. I've slept in my car. I've worked my ass off for everything I have. And with everything I have, I do a lot of good for many, many, many people. Most things people don't even know about.

So I'm not going to feel bad about doing well, especially because of the heritage in which I come from and how there's so many people who have prayed for someone along the lineage to do well. Well, some kind of way it fell on me. So I have a responsibility to honor all those people before who didn't make it, who didn't get a chance, who didn't get an opportunity to own a company or run a business or travel. I owe it to them to enjoy every experience. And that's something that I want my son to understand as well. You come from a legacy of people who had to really struggle, who were brought to this country one way and somehow gave birth to you. So I'm not apologizing for any of it. I'm going to do my best to help as many people

as I can, but I'm also going to enjoy it because I feel that as hard as I've worked, any of it. I'm going to do my best to help as many people as I can, but I'm also going to enjoy it because I feel that as hard as I've worked, I deserve it. You do. Yeah. Anything else would be foolish. And look, even if it had been because somebody, when you turned 18, give you a pot of gold and you never had to make any movies or you decided to make them just because you liked them, but you never had the toil. And it could, you know, and even if it were that, you know, you were coming of age in a time where they were celebrating diversity

rather than trying to marginalize you and say that you weren't supposed to do those things. You know, a dynamic which you helped create, by the way, by showing how great people can be no matter their background, color, creed, anything. It's okay to be happy with where you are and what you have. And I do not begrudge it. I keep saying to people,

we are obsessed in this country with who's taking whose slice of the pie. Why aren't we focused on making more pie? Just make more fucking pie. And then it doesn't matter how many slices you got to give out. And America can do that in a lot of different ways. You know, even this stuff now I'm dealing with, we got a 20 year old, she's in college. Okay. She's a big shot. She's smartest in the family. She's most talented in

the family. She's everything, just ask. So she is, you know, big on the progressive nature of politics of identity, which, you know, is something that I that I definitely try to affirm with my work on television. And I said, you know, look, don't worry about winning the argument. Just worry about helping the people that you want to help. And there's a lot of pushback on diversity. There always has been. Okay. I said, now you see it in sexual identity. I remember when I used to have to be afraid to bring my friends who played Pop Warner football with me into my neighborhood because it was not safe for them to be non-Italian or ethnic guys in my neighborhood. Now we've moved on to something. We still have that, by the way. But we've now added to it.

And don't worry about winning the argument. Don't worry about proving the other person wrong. Just show people what's right. Show people what's right. You're going to be way more persuasive. And I think you've done that with your work. And I know you do it with your life. I was going to reach out when Sharpton gave you the award for how you live in your life on the humanitarian level. But you know what? You could have buckets of those if you wanted to. You go out of your way to make a difference. But I think it's also what makes you happy with yourself.

I appreciate that. Yeah, well, it's also, you know, my mother, like I would wake up in the morning and step out of the bed and there'd be someone sleeping on the floor. I mean, literally, I would step on somebody. I'm like, who are they? And she'd be like, well, they needed a place to stay.

Be quiet. Don't make them feel bad. So every time I'm like, what were they? And she'd be like, well, they needed a place to stay, be quiet. Don't make them feel bad. So, so it's every time I do something, there's no one on this planet that I loved more than her until my son was born. So every time I do something that, especially around her birthday, which would have been February holidays, which she loved for someone else, just randomly, that for me makes me think of her and I know she smiles. So, so it's absolutely her DNA in me for sure. The model of somebody who showed you that there's always a way through it. If you're willing to do the work to get to that point.

Tyler Perry, thank you so much. Not the common kind of interview, but I believe that this is something that's been formative in your life. It's formative in so many lives. And you're a great example of understanding and perseverance. And I appreciate you as a friend. And I appreciate you as a partner on this. Thank you for doing it. Same, man. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for talking about it. Because not a lot of people are talking about it, especially men. Not a lot of people are talking about it to this detail and this degree. So I'm grateful, man. I really, really appreciate it. And I'm always here for you. Well, look, people can come at you any way

they want. They're not going to come at you for being weak because you are a big, strong fucking guy. That's for sure. I love this shot because I look bigger than you. Tyler could fit me in his pocket, by the way. On purpose. You did that on purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did.

I'm so insecure. It's horrible. Anyway, thank you, big brother. I appreciate you, and I'll be in touch. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, man.

Talk soon. Thanks, Chris. Take care. I told you the man is as deep as he is tall and talented. We all struggle. We all suffer in our own way. No judgments, no more than less than you should, you shouldn't. It's all about how and why. And I hope that this discussion from two people who are still on the road and trying to figure it out, he's doing better than I am, I hope it's instructive to you in your own life and the lives of those you care about around you. Thank you for subscribing, following,

checking out how to wear your independence with the free agent gear. Being an independent is the way to get away from these toxic parties in our politics. They are the root of all of our collective political suffering. I will see you soon at News Nation, I hope 8 and 11 o'clock Eastern every weeknight. I'll see you there and I'll see you soon. Remember, take care of yourself and take care of the people you care about.