The Chris Cuomo Project - War In Ukraine: One Year On (featuring Sean Penn)

Episode Date: March 2, 2023

In a special episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, Chris marks one year since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by reflecting on the state of the ongoing conflict. Drawing on his time on the ground from two trips to the war torn country, Chris highlights the bravery and struggles of everyday Ukrainians, illustrates what it’s like for journalists to travel to war zones, analyzes how the American public is reacting to the conflict and President Biden’s recent trip to Kyiv, and more. Chris is also joined by Sean Penn (actor, director, and co-founder, CORE Response) to discuss his humanitarian work in Ukraine, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy’s reaction to “Superpower,” Penn’s documentary about the conflict, and why being in Ukraine makes him feel more American.  Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, I'm Chris Cuomo and welcome to another special episode of the Chris Cuomo Project. As you know, we just marked the one-year anniversary of the war in Ukraine. What I'm having on right now, if you can't see, I will explain it. It says Riot Division across my dad bod chest because Riot Division is a big Ukraine brand that stems from the Maidan Square conflict days and the fight for freedom from a Russian sympathetic despot some years ago. And it has been resurgent now as a brand that is echoing the popular sentiment and resolve there. I want to take you through some footage that we haven't shown before of my time in Ukraine and the reality on the ground there. And the reason for this is very simple.

And it's the same reason I ask you to subscribe, to follow, to invest and wear your free agency. There is so much bullshit surrounding American politics regarding the war in Ukraine. The only reason that far-right Trumpy types are against it is because of that stupid phone call that Trump called perfect with President Zelensky that made all that trouble and noise during the election. trouble and noise during the election. Just because of that, they now just want to watch freedom get extinguished in the gateway to Europe? Really? They really want to say that Putin is a victim? Really? That's how diseased we've become here? So my hope is, by showing you the reality, it'll kind of just wake us all up to the idea that, no, no, no, not everything must be viewed through this filter of tribal tripe. That's what I want to do here. And I'm going to be your

Virgil, without the virtue, your guide through these different scenes and aspects of the reality that is Ukraine, unvarnished, unspun. You have anybody who wants to give you any proof that anything that I'm showing you right now is anything but the unadulterated real, which has been giving me nightmares ever since, please do. Support for the Chris Cuomo Project comes from PrizePix. I got to tell you, there's a reason PrizePix is America's number one fantasy sports app.

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So, why don't you set the table for us? Tell us where you went in Ukraine, how hard it is to get there. And you went there last year. Is this the same place you went before or someplace different? No, different place and different reality, not just in terms of what's happening on the ground, but getting there. This time, getting there was more difficult than the work on the ground. You can't fly into Ukraine. The Kiev airport is closed. So you have to fly to Poland, find your way to the border. So whatever hour flight it is to get to Poland, for us it's like eight, nine hours.

Five-hour drive to the border, 10-hour train into Kiev, and then another 10-hour train to get to the eastern portions. Ukraine is a big country. It only has like now close to 40 million people, but it's a big country. Then you have to drive over these shitty roads where you may get shelled, and then you start covering what's happening there. So I've never traveled like that to get to a place. I mean, sub-Saharan Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, but I've never had to travel like this because there was always a flight component that would get you close. Even in the Northwest frontier provinces up between Pakistan and Afghanistan, you would go with the U.S. Army in one of their helicopters, which is another thing. You're with the U.S. Army. You are not with the U.S. Army here. You're with Ukraine.

And as strong as they are, they ain't us, okay? And then you would find your way into that. So it's very hard to get there. And it's interesting and totally coincidental that the three times I've been to Ukraine have been really formative times. 2014, when the Russians shot down MH17, lied about it, and then I got there to cover a plane crash.

You get there and there are all these guys in Russian uniforms. And they are on the ground and there's a guy calling himself the prime minister of Donetsk, which is this big Eastern region. And he's just a Russian intel operative. I interviewed him.

I think his name was Borosky or something like that. The tape exists. That was 2014. And they were already just, the world was just letting them go through, just like with Crimea, just kind of letting them get away with it. You know, financial sanctions on what? A despot who hides all his money among all these oligarchs and people who will pay him back. I mean, come on. Now I go last summer, we go to Donetsk and Severodonetsk. We see this trench warfare and this World War I stuff that I've never seen before. I've never seen kinetic warfare like this before.

It's so antiquated. Shelling, random mortars, mines, you know. Mines, yeah. IEDs, okay. But usually it's enclosed fighting with, you know, very sophisticated warriors using small arms and calling in and predators, you know, and UAVs and all that stuff. I mean, it's like modern warfare. This is World War I stuff with drones that can be helpful. And certainly, Iran has reportedly been giving a ton to Russia. And that part of the country is now overrun by

Russia. In fact, it was overrun within 48 hours of when we left it, when I was there last summer. Now I go this time and we go to the new front in this place, Bakhmut, which is seen as a key to kind of a gateway to these different industrial towns that Russia would want. And again, the shelling was so intense, so much more intense than last summer. And, you know, everybody lies about casualties

and dead for advantage because you're at war. You don't want to show weakness, but you also don't want to show that you're doing too well because, you know, you need help. The Russians have their own reasons to lie, clearly, but there was death all over the place. And the people who were left behind, the desperation, that dead stare, stuff's blowing up around them and they're just sitting there filling up water bottles, you know, like it's not even happening. Why? Because they're just so traumatized.

I've never been around anything like that involving people who look like you, you know? That's like something you see in tribal warfare with barely evolved cultures where they don't know that there's any other reality other than this. You're dealing with a place with internet, you know, where they are a fully functioning European culture and they're just bombed out, bombed out. And it is scary because it can happen there. It can happen anywhere in that. They'll just keep marching along, marching along, and then what? The idea that, well, then Putin will be happy. Oh, really? Like when he did this in Georgia to stop NATO, and you think he'll stop now. No reason to go anywhere else, but there was no reason to go here.

So it's really frightening. It's really hard to cover, especially when you know you're dealing with flagging interest here within the media, not the main numbers. You still have definitely over two out of three of us believe that what's going on there is real and matters to us. But we have such magnified minorities right now in our media hellscape of how we cover politics that that last 25% that doesn't think it's a big deal get all the attention. Explain why you feel the need to go over there and actually cover this. So many people are reporting they have somebody from a bureau on the ground there doing something, but you actually want to go into the action and do this. Why is it important for you?

And why do you feel that maybe this isn't getting as much coverage as one might want from such a huge story? Well, you get compassion fatigue. It's not really in our backyard. And it's been politicized. So now it's like everything else. A train gets derailed in Ohio. All of a sudden, it's Ohio or Ukraine. I mean, this is crazy what's happening.

And it's all just the game and playing to advantage. And I see that. So who better than me to go? Why not me? And this is what I do. I don't really welcome people into this type of coverage. It really is scoring. And I was talking to my team the other day how, boy, if I wrote an op-ed like this Fox kid did about how he's traumatized from what he saw, which totally makes sense in reading the piece and understanding the dynamic, if I wrote that,

I'd get shit on all over the place for being soft and exaggerating or whatever, because that's our media culture. So my feeling is, I'm past what people think or perceive about what I do. So I might as well just do what matters to me. That's why I went to News Nation in the first place. That's why you're in my dining room in the first place, because I'm only doing things that I think matter. And there is no substitute for presence. When you come on my show and say, listen, we all know that Zelensky's a thief, but how do you know? You ever met him? Have you been around him and his guys? Have you been able to observe them at all? No. You don't know what you're talking about. I do. I've been there. Does that mean I know everything? No. But if you tell me, oh, Ukraine is obviously doing so well. No,

they're not. No, I've been there. I've seen the towns. Okay. I've talked to the people. I've seen the dead. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And that's literally the commodity for me. You don't know. You haven't been there. And it matters. It's not dispositive. It doesn't mean that you know everything about anything that matters just because you've been on the ground there. That's equally absurd. But if you want to have gravitas, if you want to have a command of context, presence is a very powerful tool in that. And I've always felt that way about it. I went last summer because I couldn't believe that something that mattered so much to me

was getting so little attention. So I went on my own dime. A buddy of mine was doing a movie over there and a documentary, and I went over and shot for him and took him to the front because I understand that reality. And it is not for everybody. In fact, I wish I had never done it.

I wish I had never gone to any of these places. And I could just learn from the best of the people who are there doing it full-time. This is what they do, their war correspondence. Because there's no question in my mind that some of what I struggle with is a function of what I've been exposed to. It's just not natural to see people

who've been shot in the head, being dragged and put into a car and bleeding out. That's not natural. You're not supposed to see that on video. You're not supposed to see it in person. You're not supposed to see anything like that. You know, have you ever seen animals in the wild when one of them is being eaten by something else?

You know, how like, they're like, ooh. It's unnatural for us, let alone to be in it, like bathed in it unnecessarily you know this isn't a leopard eating a chimp you know these are human beings making a choice to do the worst possible things we can do to one another um so it's a very precious commodity it's a very powerful commodity in terms of reportage and your understanding and your gravitas and your power over context. But it is a choice that is fraught with implications. And I judge no one who decides not to go there. It does not make you the man or the woman because you decide to go and do that. Unless you're a war correspondent. Men, that's all you do. That's really impressive.

and do that. I'm not sure a war correspondent. Men, that's all you do. That's really impressive. But for me, I just believe that, you know, when I talk about Ukraine and what's going on there, you know, everything's cheap now. Everybody attacks everything without basis. But I know that I know what I'm talking about. What do you actually do when you get on the ground there? I know you embed yourself with certain security teams or whatever. You talk to a lot of people. What is the actual information you're gathering and work you do? Imagine you just arrived in Ukraine. You're there for three days. What does that look like?

It's frenzied and frenetic because everything is so cost-conscious now. It was very ballsy of News Nation to send me over there. Okay? They're new. If this thing can go sideways, it's like now they're going to be known for going sideways. It's expensive. And we didn't have security. You didn't have like a security team with you? No. We would just go with Ukraine military. And if we could, otherwise we just drove ourselves there and got drivers and stuff like that. You know what I mean? But it wasn't like they were like the pilgrims or these other groups that you hear about are like

former special ops guys. Why? Because that's expensive and a lot of it's not available. And we're a startup and we're trying to get out there and get our hands dirty showing what matters. So you are there, you're obsessed with logistics. Things are changing all the time and you have to allow them to change. And you have to understand that the only thing that matters is that the team is safe and everybody goes home. And if that means you get kind of so-so stuff, then you get so-so stuff. I've done phoners from Afghanistan before. That's unsatisfying, but it's better than taking a risk that somebody sees the sun hit off your mobile satellite device and come in a pickup truck filled with guys shooting at you. That sucks when you have nowhere to go except the Kyber Pass or something like that. But you are obsessed with logistics. You're in the car.

You're on the train. You're exhausted. You're eating shit and drinking shit and dreaming of more comfortable days. And you are completely focused on the experience of exposing yourself to the people and places that matter. And hoping to whatever you believe in that it stays in your device. Even though we're all shooting on these now. Which has totally changed the game because you used to have like this 50-pound thing on your shoulder, which was not only physically ruinous to the person carrying it, but looked like a weapon.

I remember I went to the museum when it was still open, and they had like the old 60 Minutes correspondence packs of like just the radio equipment. Yeah. That correspond, like, this is such a game changer. Yeah. It's so much easier. And I'll tell you why this is also big. Comfort. Familiarity.

something. Comfort, familiarity. I take the guy, even if you put one of our Canon cameras on a tripod and point it at somebody, all of a sudden they're like, you know, they're a little froze, right? This you're so used to. We're all taking gratuitous videos of ourselves all the time anyway. It's so much easier. You know, you just have to, you know, for you at home who want to be in this position, just turn it horizontal and just holding it like this and talking to somebody, they don't even see it. They don't matter. They talk to you. They have their own phone.

Really changed the game. Made it easier to move. You don't have people stealing your stuff from the airport the way they used to. But you are obsessed with logistics, getting there, getting out, and getting what you need. We don't fake the funk here. And here's the real talk.

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What is your sense of how the people are doing, how the fight is going? What's your sense of just how the people are handling this on the past? Like, what is your sense of how the people are doing, how the fight is going? What's your sense of just like how the people are handling this on the ground? Morale is fragile, which is why they're so careful in Ukraine about what they're telling the population, but they're a pretty savvy population.

The fighting is fragile. If they do not have ammunition and weapons upgrades, they are outmanned and outgunned. And yes, they are fighting a far inferior opponent in Russia in terms of morale and reason to be there. You know, we keep hearing about, I don't know if you've heard this word, the Wagner Group. The Wagner Group. It's the mercenary group, right? So yeah, it's Wagner and their mercs, some of whom have been let out of prison

specifically for this purpose. That is not what they are up against in Ukraine. In Ukraine, there are people like Greg Ott, talented, creative, who has now decided to defend his country. And they are basically given a weapon a short amount of time. They are guys like Chris Cuomo, who have been out of the military for 20 years, 10 years, driving an Uber,

local shop, and now going back into the service, and they're in a trench in the snow, pointing a subpar weapon with mixed ammunition at a Russian fighting force. Passion of purpose and you seeing it as an existential threat as opposed to better than prison or because I'm told to be here, that is a big, big advantage for for Ukraine but it happens to be their only advantage and it is a durable one right meaning uh yes it's tough but it will also eventually wear away if they are just waves and waves of conscripted humanity with superior weapon systems and ammunition and a mindless and soulless ambition behind it. But you even went to like a, it was like a military training academy

with really young people there getting trained. What is it like seeing someone who's, you know, not even out of school yet, like training for war? That is heartbreaking and heart-rending. These kids have no business understanding what they understand. They have no business focusing their existence on what it is.

I have one of those examples of this species in my house. And for my son, who is a beautiful kid, for his head to be filled with, I got to go kill or be killed. I have to defend my country. And now, you know, many of you will casually say, well, we did it here in World War II, my grandpa. Yeah, you try it. Okay. There's a reason that we call them the greatest generation. There's a reason that so many families have stories of people who would never talk about their war experience and would find conditional comfort in booze and drugs and the sullen depression. It is maddening that these kids see their future as conditioned on whether or not they win a war.

And it is really heartbreaking. And people say, man, that's reality. That's what we did. That's not what I did, okay? My people came here two generations ago. I'm not a pilgrim, okay? And neither are most of you, okay? You didn't fight for the freedom of this country.

Maybe somebody several generations in your country did, but we've never had to fight for shit here. We talk the talk here, and that's okay. We don't have an existential threat. Our existential threat is each other. We've made our own problems here. We try hard to find reasons that people are different here on the basis of things that would be arbitrary if we were faced with a universal threat. And you know how we know that? Because we've seen it. 9-11, all of a sudden, every brown guy with a beard was somebody that all Americans, African-American, white American, European American, this American, whatever kind of hyphenated American you want to be, we all had a common

enemy. All of a sudden, we weren't talking BLM and police use of force. Not that they're not legitimate concerns, but we had bigger concerns. Bigger concerns. No reason to exaggerate something that we can deal with because we had something we couldn't deal with. And we went to war in a place where we had no business being and everybody was fine with it. And we spent 20 years losing blood and treasure in a place that would never be a fraction of the democracy that Ukraine already has been. That would never be an ally the way Ukraine has been and will be. Never.

I've been in all of those places, okay? It was always laughable. Oh, but Ukraine's taking the money. Oh, really? taking the money. Oh, really? Google and accounting of how much is believed to have been stolen in Afghanistan in the process of our leaving. What do you think? All of a sudden, all these chieftains and the Taliban have all this American and NATO equipment? I wonder how they got it. I hope they paid a fair price. But now we care. Why? Because it's politicized. And you see these kids, and I'm worried about my son and whether or not college is the right fit. And these kids are ready and they are going to die.

Some of the kids that we come across are going to die because people are dying every day. And the idea of that is heartbreaking to me. It's just heartbreaking. Biden was recently there and, you know, he went on that, you know, that secret train and everything. It was always logistics. Can you speak a little about like when you said a moment ago talking about how things have become so politicized? And what was your take on Biden arriving? All the security he probably went through, also like what what picture does that paint when you had people criticizing him for

going over there because of the ohio thing happening you know simultaneously it pisses me off i think biden going there was a ballsy move um and i probably would have criticized it had we been uh briefed on it in advance i would have been like well that's crazy because if something happens to that guy god forbid even if he like trips and falls all of a sudden you're in baby you know what i mean so that should have been the sole concern of our lawmakers but it wasn't it was just advantage and you know somehow seeing him as a pussy and they're playing with the air raid sirens. First it was, did you see that he was there with the air raid sirens? How stupid it was for him to be there. Then it was,

oh, they told Russia. Well, Russia doesn't care. Did you hear those air raid sirens? They don't fear him. He's not Trump. Then it was air raid sirens. What air raid sirens? We believe they made it up. It's just all playing to advantage and bullshit. That's all it is. I thought it was ballsy for the president to go there. I thought it was probably a great message for the allies to see about our resolve. I think it probably sent a message to Putin. And I think the idea, I'll tell you what's a ballsy move. The Americans tell you that our president's going to be there, and you bomb it. That's what would have proven that Putin is who he says he is, okay? Because let me tell you something.

If I believe that you are messing with my right to exist and you tell me where you're going to be, I'm coming. And he didn't. And that tells you something. And by the way, it doesn't make him a good guy. And if you want to say, well, come on, Cuomo, you can't have it both ways. I mean, Putin did show some decency. Yeah. Tell the women who were raped by his guys at his direction, if they're telling the truth, right? On both sides. Tell the people that I saw there, they've been bombed out of their homes where they live. okay? This is not

about hunting Nazis and taking out infrastructure, okay? They're taking out infrastructure. They're taking out apartments, schools. They're bombing people everywhere they can. They're throwing mines down everywhere they can. So I thought it was a big deal. And I thought that it was another sad expression of our reality back here. Why not East Palestine? Why don't they care? That, to me, is just another demonstration of the game, Greg. I mean, that's just all we talk about here.

Because it's the only thing that matters to me. And I just want people to see it everywhere. You know, that's why I say to people, don't be a lemming. Don't insult me. Shut up. Your whole thread is insults. You just don't like it when it's coming to you. But you are a lemming. There's insult me. Shut up. Your whole thread is insults. You just don't like it when it's coming to you, but you are a lemming. There's nothing wrong with those little rats, but they're just doing what they think they need to do and following the other ones. They don't

think for themselves. That's why they all go off the cliff, right? And I think that we have to be free agents here and be critical thinkers. And Ukraine is a beautiful example of this. If you look at it and figure out what it's about and why, where you want to be positioned on it is going to be obvious to you. Where the U.S. interests lie are going to be obvious to you. And all of these arguments that are being lined up, but we have problems at home that you don't want to spend any money on. Because you're not spending money on those.

And the money you do spend, you don't track. But now you care about the money. Come on. So to me, the politics of Biden going there were the obvious, because every game is like that here. Everything becomes like that here. And that's our problem.

And that's why we're so vulnerable. If we don't fix the game, if we don't change the game, it's only a matter of time before some enemy takes advantage of it. Where right now do you see the war? How much longer do you see it lasting? What are the circumstances on the ground? How do you see this playing out over the next, I don't know, year plus or maybe you think it's shorter? Where do you see it going from here? The best sense is that the war ends the day Russia wants it to, or the day that Russia is forced to make it so.

It's a little bit of a perverse notion that, well, Ukraine could stop it. Yeah, except somebody's in their country right now. You know, it's really interesting to me that Zelensky and all Ukrainian perspectives that have heard of this, they never extend their ambitions beyond their borders. You know, and if you think about it, that's very unusual. Usually, if you are in my country, I don't just fight you back to where you entered, right? Especially if there's a shared border.

Usually it's, well, if I'm going to win, I'm going to win. And that's not the situation. They really just want to be left alone. And. And that's not the situation. They really just want to be left alone. And I think that's a very important instruction. How does it end? It ends in a negotiated settlement, most likely, right? Because I don't see how unless they overwhelm Ukraine and kill a lot of the people in it, I don't know how they break the will of those people. And I don't believe that Europe or the rest of the world allows that type of ignominy. So it ends in a negotiated settlement. I just don't know what

that looks like. I don't see it ending anytime soon because this is a very sustainable type of warfare if both sides keep being fed resources. When you say negotiated settlement, do you envision that being ideally resetting back to how it was before the war began or even further than that with, you know, there was like Crimea and all the other- That's what Ukraine wants. Yeah. They want all their land back. Now, everyone you talk to here says, well, that's not going to happen. Every expert that I've spoken to say that. Obviously, I don't say that because what do I know?

But I know that in Ukraine, and you don't say that because what do I know? But I know that in Ukraine, and you don't have to be there to hear this, you can go anywhere on social media or any of the reporting and you'll read or hear or see the same. They say they want all of it. Everyone who seems to know anything says, well, that's not going to happen. So we'll see. So when you've gone to Ukraine recently and your trip last year, you went with Sean Penn. Can you tell us a little about just like, what do you think of the work he's doing, his organization is doing and your relationship with him? What I've always found impressive about brother Penn is how non-celebrity driven any of his advocacy work is. Haiti,

his advocacy work is. Haiti, New Orleans, Iraq, here in Ukraine, everywhere that I've seen or heard tell of the guy, he's just in the suck because he believes in whatever it is that's motivating his presence there. That doesn't mean that I always agree with whatever it is that's motivating him, but the work of the organization he started, CORE, I think it's Citizens or Community Organized Relief Effort, they're doing tremendous work in Haiti. They're doing tremendous work helping people who are fleeing or displaced in Ukraine. And that's just a fact. You can attack it if you want to,

but it's amazing that he's been a catalyst for that. And he means so much to people in Ukraine, not just because he's the two-time Oscar winning, you know, huge this, huge that, which of course he is, but it's because of his commitment. He's been there many times. And he was there the day the invasion started. and it's the backbone of his movie superpower that just premiered at the Berlin Film Festival and was very well received and he is just there in the suck and he only uses his power to project the message which is really admirable I see it as a great use of celebrity.

You know, he's not selling sports drinks. He's saying, hey, you want to pay attention to me, right? So pay attention to this. And he's very intelligent about it. He knows what he doesn't know. He does a lot of homework and he gets a lot of access and he uses it for the right reasons. We're going to play the interview.

Is there anything you want to say about the interview specifically? He is usually dead exhausted, okay, when he's in these places because he is getting pulled in a thousand directions. He went to the front with me, okay? He was step for step. He understands security protocols. Step for step, he understands security protocols. He understands war. He understands the violence. And what is most impressive to me is he cares about this.

There is no upside for him, okay, in being what he is in the Ukraine dynamic right now. This is not good for his career. It's not helpful to him. He doesn't like the shine. That's not who he is. I'm telling you, I know the guy. And he is literally doing what we say celebrities never do,

which is just authentically being about something bigger than themselves. This moment, how's it feel? You know, the thing is that this is, I think, my sixth trip in the year of this war. And Ukrainian resolve only escalates every time. And so, what does it feel? You know, it's the same concern I've had since the beginning. It's it will the allies support, will the world support fast so that more lives can be saved? There's not a question about whether or not the Ukrainians are going to win this. That's clear. The question is, you know, what it's going to take in terms of tools and to avoid suffering

and infrastructure damage, and I think what will end up costing us all a lot more. And as President Zelensky said, they don't want American troops on the ground. And they said, you know, you've fought too many wars, lost too many lives. But if they're not given the resources, then this is going to go on to a point where it will be necessary. to go on to a point where it will be necessary. So what I would say is just that this place is a picture of courage, but it's also the picture of the world economy. And I think that those are the physics that people should pay attention to, because it's

going to come on their door one way or the other. What's your sense of this renewed Russian energy and this step up in fighting during a period we thought might have been a cool down because it's so cold and people would stay stuck? What is the significance to the dynamic in your estimation that the Russians are making a push? Yeah, I mean, there's no question, but the bully's going to, you know, find every wrench in the closet to throw at certain times. And I think a lot of this is going to, you know, find every wrench in the closet to throw at certain times. And I think a lot of this is going to be impulsive. Strategically, and I talk to much smarter people than myself about this, I don't think that any of it makes any sense long term.

But what it means is that, yes, there's going to be, you know, more horror until the Ukrainians are able to, you know, be fully up in resource. But there is also that, you know, the positive. I think that the United States in particular, there is a, you know, a tangibly increased flow of support and resource. So you're here because that's what you do, but you're also on your way to open the Berlin Film Festival. Your film is ready, and you came here to show President Zelensky. How did he take the film? What was the impact? You know, we had shown it last night in the train station to, you know, our friend Alex, who runs the railroad, and to a group of ambassadors and others that he had put together. The U.S. ambassador was there. But significantly, I wasn't prepared because I realized I'd never seen it with a group.

I'd seen it with Aaron or my co-director or one person. And all of this happened very fast. It was organized fast. And the next thing we know, we're there. And I realized when the lights went off, these are the people that are living this fight. And it was very moving. The response was extraordinary. And then we found out that the president got up this morning, 7 o'clock in the morning, and watched it. And we just left his office.

And he was very positive on that. So we're moved, you know, and excited to be part of this messaging. Every film you do means so much to you, but with all the issues you've taken on, you've never had a piece that could be as relevant as this to ongoing momentum in real time you're not capturing the past event what does that mean to you in terms of what you hope this film can do well i think i think that what the film does do because we leave it to the ukrainian voices and and to

you know we we show it in such a way it's allowing people who may not have the luxury that I've had to be here and to have access to the people that we've seen and talked to and being with you at the front lines. I think it really does make sense for an American audience in particular of why it is an American problem and why it's not about, oh gosh, what's it going to cost us to help them? It's how much more it's going to cost us, I mean, even economically,

if we don't. And what it means to food security around the world and all those things are kind of simplified because that's the way I work. It's simple and, you know, just offer trust and you get trust back and let the film evolve itself. And I think it's kind of like letting people piggyback on the trip we took. When you think about what you want the audience, Americans specifically, to take from it, right now they are obviously politically divided, no surprise. want the audience, Americans specifically, to take from it? Right now, we're obviously

politically divided, no surprise. But there is an idea that, well, we've done a lot, and Ukraine's winning, right? So that's done. What's next? What do you want the audience to realize? No, I think societally, we have to really only understand this problem better and better. And I think that this film, to one degree or another, is a great start that way, because it's going to be those constituents that are going to be speaking to their congressmen and saying, we do recognize how this impacts the future of the United States and our ability to function around the world and what our children's futures are going to be in a very real way. And so, you know, it's the cost of doing business on planet Earth. You told me when we were here something, sometimes somebody tells you something and then all

of a sudden you realize that you feel it. When you said, I feel more American in Ukraine because they are acting on what we talk about. You think that's something that may break through to an American audience, that they're walking the talk? I like to believe that that's the most significant impact of the film. I think that the film makes that case in pretty clear terms. Now, you won't like this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. You don't think about this in terms of you and your role. You very much, as you say, leave the storytelling to everybody else.

It's not a film about Sean Penn. But this film and all the work that you've done, where is it for you? The most important film I've ever had. I mean, it was just a freak privilege that came up. And the people involved are, you know, this is, you know, this is the center of the way the world's gonna play out,

one way or another. And to be able to bear witness, and to be able to offer it in sharing it with the film you can't beat that everything you've done this is what you want people to see yeah where do you think we are a year from now hard to say you know as i again uh from the beginning i i um you know i i have an absolute feeling of certainty that ukraine is going to dominate this. What has concerned me, continues to concern me,

and what we should all be concerned with is, you know, how many people are we going to let die with decisions. The decisions that have been made to date were considered that which would escalate this to nuclear war a year ago. But we've had to do it. I think we have to understand, you know, if we care about our servicemen, at the end of the day, what the United States is going to have to do by any ideological measure of the economy of it

is everything they have to do to keep Americans from having to come into this on the ground. You believe this is a, if not now, when, if not us, who moment? I think, you know, before we would have American troops on the ground, we're going to do, how long is it going to take to do everything? It's when we figure this out clearly, but we will do it. So we may as well do it now. Look, the whole point of this is just to give you the real. And for you to be your own processing agent, okay? Be a critical thinker. But I'm just showing you how it is, okay?

I have no stake in this war. War is not good for me. I don't want to go back there. Why? It scares my family. It's traumatizing. It's horrible what they're living with there. And I think it's scarring.

And I think that's one thing for them to have to live with it and justify it. But they have a lot going for them that I and any other observer doesn't. There will be no vindication or victory for journalists who are watching this other than the dissemination of truth. So I just show it to you because I know it matters and I know it's real and I don't think it's relative. So take it for what it is and use it for what you want it to be, but be a critical thinker. Free agent is not a logo. I ain't getting rich off it, okay? It's a way for you to get away from the teams, get away from the group think,

get away from the tribes and being treated like a lemming and think for yourself, see what it is and determine why it matters, okay? I'm asking a lot, but I did a lot to bring it to you as well. So I hope you appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time. It really matters to me and I appreciate it.

And that's why we put so much into the Chris Cuomo Project. Subscribe, follow, really appreciate that. Want to grow this so we can do more of it. And I will see you next time. And don't forget, watch me on News Nation because a lot of the programming goes together.