The Chris Cuomo Project - Whoopi Goldberg, Judging vs Judgment

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

In this week’s episode of The Chris Cuomo Project, Chris explores how to exercise good judgment on social media, Marco Rubio’s demonization of immigrants, and how it’s easy for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to play the hero online. Legendary actor and comedian Whoopi Goldberg joins Chris for a broad discussion of topics including the murder of Emmett Till and her upcoming film “Till,” whether the U.S. is slipping backwards culturally, her extensive comedy career and role as co-host of “The View,” her plans for the future, and much more. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Let's start our own party. I will have the shrimp party. The shrimp? The shrimp party, yes. Why are we calling it that? Because that's the name I like. You got a better name? You like shrimp?

Well, I like the shrimp party. Because I like the idea of many shrimps partying in the ocean. But that might not be what you like. It's one of the craziest things I've ever heard in my life, what you just said. Yes. Welcome to another episode of the Chris Cuomo Project. Again, thank you. Thank you for spreading the word.

Thank you for the robust response. Thank you for helping the project grow. Remember, I picked that word on purpose because it's raised through the merch, free agent, cool stuff, by the way, to give to people who are doing good things. And my hope is to crowdsource it. Okay. So that's a little bit of business up off the top. Now, here is the premise for the day. Don't judge, exercise judgment. Now, a lot of points I'm going to be making, I'm trying to expose how we're being poisoned by our social media behavior. Social media is neither good nor bad. It's about how we use it and how we engage, okay. It's just a platform or a set of platforms. However, culturally, especially like on Twitter, the place is toxic. It's about judgment. It's about being loud. Okay. It's about being angry. It's about being hostile. And because

the media, you know, yours truly included, I was there for this. I don't remember architecting it. And I was always kind of suspicious of it. And I don't love these platforms. I have to be there. It's part of my job and I'm looking to engage. But I didn't really fight against it either. And the media started relying on social media as what we call Vox Populi, some kind of accurate reflection of where you guys are on things. And that was a mistake because it is not reality. Social media is about judgment. Reality is about exercising

judgment. Now, different. Better said, social media is about judging. I like, I don't like, I'm mad, I'm this, I'm that, I judge. I say, use judging just for yourself. Be kind, be kind, but use judging for yourself. Be kind to yourself, but judge yourself, not others. Okay. It's not your place and it doesn't really help create any space for better ideas. It's a shortcut. It's cheap and it is delicious to do. And that's why social media cultivate it. And now we see our politicians reflecting that vibe as well. I'll get to it in a second, but exercise judgment, scrutinize, think sensible conclusions. That's what you should be about, especially when it comes to politics and getting your leaders to do what you want them to do. Now, Marcus Aurelius, okay, a founding member of the kind of stoicism society, which doesn't really exist, but obviously one of

the great Roman emperors, he had a quote that nails this. Okay. And it shows you how old this concept is. Social media is just a new way of vibing on the same kind of problems culturally. Here's the quote. You'll see what those people are like, whose criticism you're worried about, and how poor they are as critics of themselves. You get that? The idea is it's easy to come after other people. It is satisfying on a visceral level, on a base level, negativity as a proxy for insight, criticism as some type of fugazi depth. But it's a trick. It's a sham. And we're now seeing it everywhere. It's pervasive. How do I know that? Let's go to the proof. Senator Marco Rubio, big on immigration, speaks about it in two languages. But what is he doing? What is his point? It's to go after the brown people

who are coming across the border. It's to demonize the little guy. It's to make something that you can be afraid of because fear is very powerful and it's easier to drive something with fear than with love. And he knows it because he's a savvy politician. So, you know, he makes a statement like, how is it that you can enter a country illegally and then sue that same country a couple of weeks later?

Well, he's making a gross assumption there, which is that the entry was illegal. Obviously, that's what the lawsuit's about. But he assumes that because it's not about the legalities. He's not dealing with the issue in terms of a solution. You want to talk immigration? Great. Do we have a problem? Yeah.

Are there solutions? Yeah. Is it demonizing the little guy? No, it's going after who's enticing them to come here, my brothers and sisters. Go after the employers. You never hear them talk about that. Why? It's easier. It's scarier to show the brown menace, as I used to call it, the people coming across. Why are they coming? Economic migrants. It's not just to be rich people's maids. Again, that's another game. It's a judging mechanism to divide. It's a judging mechanism to divide. They don't go after the big employers because the big employers have power.

And it's not as scary. And the politician's goal is to scare you into compliance with their own interests. Why not talk about the legal changes that would help? Because look, the whole lawsuit is they come here. Everybody says they're seeking asylum. A lot of them are not going to make the grade like overwhelmingly. They will not be found as legit asylum cases politicians, are you? Let's build a wall. We need more defenders. Look how strong I am. Go after them.

Use guns. It's cheap. It's easy. It's not what the people on the border are asking for. They want more tribunals. They want law changes. Why isn't Rubio talking about that? Doesn't really scare you, does it?

Doesn't really motivate you to think he's protecting you, does it? Think about that. Doesn't really scare you, does it? Doesn't really motivate you to think he's protecting you, does it? Think about that. That's the problem with judging versus exercising good judgment. Now, we'll do the other side now. Okay. AOC, the little guy, the little guy, the little guy. Let's give people everything. The little guy, the little guy. Okay. That's your vibe, right? Why aren't you in Jackson, Mississippi? Well, I don't represent Jackson. Oh, guy. The little guy. Okay. That's your vibe, right? Why aren't you in Jackson, Mississippi? Well, I don't represent Jackson. Oh, please. Come on. You talk about places. You go places. You do things. It's not just about your own district. It's easy to play the hero on social media.

A righteous warrior. This is good. This is bad. I'm about this. They're terrible. Look at me. Listen to me. Go to Jackson, Mississippi. It's a capital city. Jackson is the capital of Mississippi. Disproportionately black and minority. I wonder if that has anything to do with why they don't have good water. Oh, blame the mayor. He's a Democrat. What about the governor? He's a Republican. He's got a water truck outside where he is and his people are.

Same effort for Jackson? Or is this about politics, really? Having people have poison come out of their pipes for politics? Isn't this worthy of exposure? Isn't this worthy of making a stand and being there as a leader? Why don't you go, Cuomo? I don't have a show yet.

Watch me when I do. October 3rd, News Nation. And by the way, I wasn't elected to make things better. Okay, I didn't promise you that. I didn't take that very, very important currency in our democracy of leadership and access and take an oath to do that. These people did. Now, what is this that I'm describing? It's the game. Why aren't they talking to you about Ukraine? Because you guys aren't vibing on it. That's why. It's getting worse there. Armenia, Azerbaijan. Why aren't they talking about these things? If they care about people and their rights, if you care about democracy, if we spent trillions on Afghanistan and Iraq to try to make them democracies. Why aren't we protecting

a democracy in Ukraine that is desperate to be like us? Afghanistan and Iraq are never going to be like America. Why aren't we hearing this? That's judgment as opposed to just judging. That's social media, cheap, easy. Reality. That's the game. That's what we need to expose so that free agents like you can demand that the game change. Okay? Now, false parody. They're on the right. They are threatening the democracy. Listen, has the right gone farther than the left in these recent events? Of course, because they have to own Trump. And Trump's vehicle is antagonism and disruption to say everything is terrible except me. And it works on people who are so disaffected and desperate. And yes, there's a portion of them that are just

prejudiced and bigots, but there's a larger portion of them that are so disaffected and desperate. And yes, there's a portion of them that are just prejudiced and bigots, but there's a larger portion of them that are so disaffected and desperate that they'll look for a change agent like Trump. In fact, I've talked to so many people who voted for Trump who are actually pissed at the Democrats for leaving them with no choice but Trump in their own mind. And I always say to my Democrat friends who are in the business, you know, who are in the game, don't you see that as opportunity to go after these people as allies and speak to their interests? If they were so desperate that they had to pick a Trump, isn't there an opportunity for you there? But they'd rather play the game. They'd rather back extreme candidates in primaries so that they have the weakest opponent. If you want to be better than that, if that's your high ground, then be better than that.

Don't encourage worse forms of it so it's easier for you to win. See, this is the game, my brothers and sisters, and we have to change the game. Okay? Okay, what are your ideas? Okay, great. I don't need to insult people to sound like a change agent. That's the cheap way to do it. Fear them, they're bad. Change the game, demand debate. When's the last time you saw a Republican and a Democrat on the same show talking about something as elected leaders?

Think about it, never happens. Why? They pick their home bases. They're not looking to be tested. And their position is opposition. They don't stand to gain anything by being on the same thing. God forbid they agree about something. It'll make them weak. We need it. We need it. Term limits. You want to shame Congress? Shame them into passing term limits. They have to do it. Why not? Why won't they do it? Why don't we talk about this all the time? Apportion electors, rank choice voting.

Why aren't we talking about this, going to states and say, why don't you apportion your electors? It would make a difference. And then you get around a constitutional amendment and dealing with the electoral college to the extent that people agree in power that it needs as a reflection of your wants to change and be more fair. Ranked choice voting. Oh, it doesn't work. It only helps the Democrats. It's called math. OK, it's called getting to a place of something more akin to consensus. Don't let people tell you what rank choice voting is. Look it up. Understand how it works.

And you'll see this could be a good thing. This helps us. It helps keep from having a small, angry fringe win a primary instead of the reality, which is you, regular, non-extreme, non-fringe, free agent, open mind, open heart, willing to listen even to what you disagree with. Now, look, I know we're all watching the game. And I know even though you don't see yourself on the field and you think what's going on on the field is crazy, but you're still watching it and you wind up developing tendencies for one of the teams. We've got to break out of it if we want things to get better. Okay. And that's what we need is ideas. Now you may not like some or all of the ideas I presented and that's okay because they're not insults, they're insights and you don't have to

agree with them. Maybe you have better ones. Tell me. Tell me. Call me. Leave me your email. Give me these things. 516-412-6307. 516-412-6307. Give me your better ideas. Tell me what's wrong with mine. I end with this, a line from my current favorite band, The Idols, whom I may like too much, and I'm hurt that I can't get them to come on the podcast. Nothing has ever been mended by you standing up and saying you're offended. Go on. Tell them what I've intended. I do what I love. I say what I mean, and I fucking send it. Raw, but real. And that's the way you need to be. Okay? And that's what we need to hear from. Raw voices, real voices who want things to be better. And that's our guest, Whoopi Goldberg. First of all, giant in the business.

Okay. EGOT. Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony. Two Oscars. Amazing. Amazing how special as an entertainer she is. That's not even why I have her here. Thinker. Someone who wants things to be better and sees what is making us worse. The one and only Whoopi Goldberg. Listen, if you know anything about me, you know I've been doing AG1 for over five years, okay? Why? Well, because I heard about it just as I was looking at all of these white and translucent brown bottles in my life. Had to be a dozen of them, okay?

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Very cool, because you can't get through the TSA otherwise. Go to drinkag1.comccp. That's drinkag1.com slash ccp. Check it out. Take control of your health. We don't fake the funk here. And here's the real talk.

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HIMS dot com slash C-C-P. Prescriptions, you need an online consultation with a healthcare provider, and they will determine if appropriate. Restrictions apply. You see the website, you'll get details and important safety information. You're going to need a subscription. It's required. Plus, price is going to vary based on product and subscription plan. Whoopi Goldberg, thank you so much for now making the Chris Cuomo project something. Now that you have decided to come on it, it is officially something. Thank you very much. Well, you know what? You are so full of it, and that's why I love you,

because you're one of the few people I can actually have fun with when I'm talking to him. Hi. So I'm very happy that you're doing a movie about Emmett Till, where you're portraying the perspective of his mother trying to get attention. And I like that because it never has mattered since it mattered, right? Just for everybody at home, Emmett Till was a big precipitating event, a story, because of how outrageous it was that basically Emmett Till was held in contempt of the community

and made into a felon for talking to a white woman. That's what it was. You Emmett Till was held in contempt of the community and made into a felon for talking to a white woman. That's what it was. You'll see the word in the clips, harassed. That's bullshit. It wasn't about harassment. It was just deigning to speak. And it was huge in the 60s. But I always feel, Whoop, like it's never mattered enough since, you know, because there's still some news there. Yeah. Well, we've never mattered really enough. You know, the mere fact that, you know, institutional racism just continues on like it was nothing. I mean, this is a 14 year old boy who supposedly whistled at a woman and it cost him his life. Her husband and her, I guess, brother-in-law, you know, went to where

he was staying, grabbed him and murdered him. And then, you know, everybody pretended it was nothing. And what they did to him is kind of beyond heinous when you think of all the 14-year-olds that you know, you know, that somebody would do this to a kid. And because he was a Black kid, it didn't matter. And his mother maybe had to really, really, really, really push and push and push and push. And when they sent his body back home, she said, listen, I want people to see what was done so people have some idea of what I'm talking about. What did you think of her decision?

I would have done it. I would have liked to think that I would have done it. Hard to do, to have your own baby put out there like that. Well, you know, how else are you going to get people's attention? Because white people weren't really paying much attention to us, the way that they kind of are not paying attention now, in a way. What would happen if it happened today?

Well, I think people would lose their minds, much like we did during George Floyd. And I think it would not just be black people, because people are tired of this. They're tired of people coming in and shooting them. They're tired of people coming in and shooting kids. They're tired of just the top. People are tired of this. They're tired of people coming in and shooting them. They're tired of people coming in and shooting kids. They're tired of just the top. People are tired of it. We've got, we're weary of this. And this is, you know, this happened in 1955

and people keep saying, oh, well, we don't need to rehash it. No, we do. We need to remind people. We need to remind people why stuff is important. We need to remind people why so many people got out, you know, and walked to work because they were boycotting the Montgomery buses. Because people wanted to vote. happened, a woman was born, a girl was born who would become a woman, who would become a one of five women to win the esteemed EGOT series of awards. I'm talking about Whoopi,

obviously. What does it mean that the same year that that was done to Emmett Till, we had who would become Whoopi Goldberg, who has had unprecedented success in a very hard business? Do they mean something to one another as events? You know, a lot of things happened in 1955. Disneyland was born in 1955 in California. I was born in 1955 here in New York City. Emmett Till lost his life in Georgia in 1955. And the thing that we all have to remember is that one of these things is something that you look forward to as a kid.

One of these things is the thing that you want more than anything, to have a good time, to have your parents take you someplace you've never been before. When I was a little kid, all I wanted to do was go to Disneyland. And then I found out that we were the same age, so I wanted it even more. But I'd like people to keep in mind that we don't know what Emmett Till would have become had he lived, had he had the opportunity to grow into a young man. We don't know. So maybe, maybe I got a little bit of him in me. Maybe I got a little bit of him. And part of my passion for all of this is

to just get people to take the color off and look at a child as a child. It would have never happened if it was just a child, though. Well, no, it probably wouldn't have. So what do you want people to get from the movie that they may not know? I want them to just know that it happened. I want them to acknowledge it the way that we acknowledge all of the horrific things we've been protesting, whether it's George Floyd or the Second World War or everything that we've been seeing over the years with various colors of people, you know, various peoples of color,

have had to take a lot of crap for no good reason. You don't know them. You've not met them. You haven't sat down. You don't know their kids. So why are you pissed at them? Why is it that we all can't be equal? What are you trying to hold on to that makes you say you're better? And because you're better, you have the right to take somebody's life. I need people to just see what that means when you think you're better and you're entitled. This is what entitlement, this is the epitome of entitlement. How was it for you getting into this character

and owning those emotions and representing this situation? Well, you know, I'm playing, when we first started out to make this movie, I was young enough to play Mrs. Mo Mulberry. That's how long it took us to get the movie made, is I aged out so I could play. And I said, so we'll find somebody to play the mother. They said, no, no, no, you're going to do it. I was like, no, no, come on. I'm just going to be the producer. I'm the producer with you guys. They're like, no, no, you got to be in

it. So there are five of us, six of us, who have been trying to get this done for quite some time. And being able to say it's in the can and we're showing it to people, I want people to just know this story. Like we know Anne Frank's story. That story takes us and it takes us all kinds of places. Well, this is also the same. This is a little boy,

you know, who was murdered by monsters, whose story takes us many places and ends up here. And the question is why and is that okay with us still? Did it change you? I've been born changed. I was born changed. You know, if you're a Black kid growing up and you're my age, you start your path in life with this story. What it did was it changed a whole lot of the young people that we were working with who sort of had heard the story. You know, it's the same.

If you don't read Diary of Anne Frank, you don't know. You know, if you don't see this, you won't know. And that's what I'm hoping this will be for people. They're eye-opener going, oh, shit, we can't have this happen ever again. What does it mean to you that the family still believes there are people who haven't been brought to justice? Well, we know that there are people who haven't been brought to justice? Well, we know that there are people who haven't been brought to justice. Not like they believe. She wasn't brought to justice. Nope.

No. And they don't want to bring her to justice. They say, oh, she's an old lady. But he never got to be an old man. And I think there's nothing wrong with having this conversation in a court. You don't have to put her in jail. But we need to know that the right thing has been done. Because I tell you, if it was reversed, they'd still be chasing him.

Yep. I don't disagree with that. Do you think it'll happen? I hope it will happen. I hope it will happen. So a couple of points of resistance. We're not 1955 anymore. The progress has been tremendous. And the media and certain components of the left architect a false perception of police violence against people of color and prejudice. And it doesn't really exist the way we say it does today. Listen, people can say everything they want. George Floyd happened. We all watched it. Okay. There are person upon person upon person who are innocent. We're not talking about you went after the bad guys and you got it. This is about something totally different. And you don't have to

admit to what you see. You can pretend to be in the dark and that's just the way it's going to be. You're going to be in the dark. But know that if you're alive in this country, you know exactly what this movie is about. Chances are you may have said something that slipped out of your mouth because it didn't occur to you. It might not have been the right thing to say. People say stuff, stuff slips out all the time. But only when you say, you know what, I just heard myself. I shouldn't have done that. That's when you got growth. It's when you go, I don't know what you're talking about, that you remain, that you're just an egg. You're not hard boiled. You're not soft boiled. You're just there. How do you think we're

doing? We could be doing better. We could be doing better. Just in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. This idea that religious freedom means everything you want to do is okay, but not for me. I'm listening to people I had some respect for say, I don't know why people are so upset at what the Supreme Court is doing. It's like, seriously? You really don't know? You really don't know why people are upset? I find that hard to believe. You don't have to accept it, but don't fool yourself, man. This was what y'all did was wrong. And I know lots of people said, well, when we did Brown

versus Board of Education, that was wrong too. Well, no, not quite. Not quite. You might not have liked the fact that I was going to be sitting next to you. But as my as an American, it's my right. Right. It's right. I'm born in this country with the right. Plessy v. Ferguson was the mistake. Separate but equal was something. Now, sometimes the law has to evolve because we say law, but often we mean culture. Yes. And things have to change. But, you know, under law, I remember my father, may he rest in peace, as you know, huge fan of yours. And me of him. Your original HBO special literally made him lose a crown. If you had said the word raisin one more time, he probably would have been dead then. But he was talking with my brother and me about gay marriage.

And he said to Andrew, who was very much in favor of it as an equal protection argument, he said, this is a no-brainer. It is culture that is keeping us back from this. This is an obvious equal protection argument. If some people can be married, all people can be married. But it's culture. And where do you think we are in terms of culture? I think we've slipped backwards quite a bit because it's not just culture. It's a type

of religion. It is an idea that you know best for me, but I don't have the right to say to you, hey, then you can't run with your guns. If we're going to come right down to it, stay out of my body. Stay out of my body. You know, the Constitution doesn't talk a lot about a lot of stuff because a lot of stuff wasn't in it. So it is a living, breathing piece of work that has to, as you said, evolve.

So we've been evolving with it. And now some folks say, well, I don't like the direction this is going in. And I always say, then don't go in that direction. Stay where you believe you're comfortable. But don't stop me from going in that direction if that's what I choose. And that's what people, I think, can't get in their hands. You know, they're afraid of gay people. You know, they're afraid of gay people. You know, they're afraid of black people. They're afraid of Native American people. They're afraid of Asian people.

They're, you know, all this fear. God says, trust in me. So if you're concerned, trust in your God. Trust in your God. God doesn't make mistakes. God made everybody, right? Well, yeah. And so if you're going to tell me that this is wrong and this is wrong, you're basically

saying your creator made a mistake. And who are you? Who are you to tell me God made a mistake? Who are you? People seem to forget it when it's convenient. Do you think America can get to being what it was supposed to be in the founding, which is a more perfect union, indivisible, one nation? That's what they wanted us to be at its inception. George Washington and his farewell address.

Avoid those fucking parties because they'll bring you sideways. Be a nation. That is all. Be a nation. You think we'll ever be that? Yeah. We go in fits and starts. We go forward. Be a nation. That is all. You think we'll ever be that? Yeah, we go in fits and starts. We go forward, we go backward. We go forward, we go backward.

We're slightly on the teeter part of the totter. You know, on the teeter totter? We're in the teeter part. So we're kind of slipping. But people then come more to the center and say, okay, let's get the balance. Because nobody's going to get everything they want, ever. It can't be because we are a nation of many different types of people. But there are certain things we can all agree on. Don't tread on me. I won't tread on you.

Let's try to be civil because we've got little kids and they're watching and they want to see how we act. I know how to say please and thank you because my mother said please and thank you. You know, I know how to act because I watch my mother act like a human being. And so those are the things that are important. I think you can have all kinds of ideas, but it doesn't mean that they are the right ideas, but they might be the right idea for the country. And this is why there are two parties. And sometimes they don't think the way I want them to think. Nobody's thinking the way I want them to think, you know? But I know

enough to believe that if people vote, if they get out and they make the changes they want to see, things will get more balanced. Right now, we're quite out of balance. Think we need more parties? Why not? It just gives more, puts more people to work. If you got 16 parties, then you got 16 different things you got to do. I don't know if that's the answer, but I do know that what we're doing needs to have more cojones behind it. You think we care about the right things right now? I don't know. What do you think the right things are?

Well, we don't have to agree, right? But I think that the notion of a nation is common concerns and collective will. And I really believe a big mistake that we're seeing in our politics right now, specifically on the Democrat side, is there's tremendous opportunity for Democrats because people are so desperate for better ideas and for better in general. And the right is locked up with Trump and owning a lie about what happened in the election. They cannot get out of their own way. They cannot get away from what they know didn't happen without insulting the guy who said it happened and somehow undermining their own

party. So there's opportunity. And I believe that if the Democrats could keep Trump's name out of their mouth and just speak to the needs of the people who voted for him and offer them a better idea of common concerns and not these fringe appetites that keep getting fed by the media and the parties and the extremists. You just said it. You know, a lot of what would be nice is if the media could just back up, you know, because listen, you may not love Joe Biden, but I haven't seen anybody bust their behind more than he has to try to get stuff done and get it done for everybody. You know, this whole thing of finding some relief for people who borrowed money.

Everybody said, well, he shouldn't have. for people who borrowed money. Everybody said, well, he shouldn't have. Well, yeah, people are dying and their debt is rolling over to their children. Something has to be done. Somebody had to take a look. Did he do as fast and as quickly as people wanted him to do at monkey pots?

Probably not. But I know I got my 15 shots. And I'm feeling a lot more confident. There's so much to be done. I would like everybody in Washington to just figure out what's good for the people. What is going to be good for the people? Is it good for the people so they can get some health care? Yeah.

get some healthcare? Yeah. Was it a good idea to say our religious beliefs say we don't want to give AIDS medication to folks because it goes against my religion? No, that's not good. That's not good. That's not good for the people. Your religion has nothing to do with your first duty as a physician. What the, you know, I want everybody to just get rid of your party and get back to what's good for us. What is going to work for us? Everything that everybody wants isn't going to work for everybody. This I know. It's been annoying, but I know it's true. But give me something. Somebody just say, I'm thinking of you all and I want to get this done. And everybody on the other side, whatever the other side is for that side, everybody on the other side, just hear what I'm saying. This isn't for my gratification. This is for the people.

If the other side, if they would just put all the other stuff, he's not the real president. If they could get rid of the craziness, life would be so much easier on us as a nation. Because I feel like we get beat to shit every day. We're getting beat up. And I think people are just

they're dragging. People are angry all the time. It creates opportunity because, you know, and you do, you have a very full life and you have people around you all the time. Some agree, some don't agree, but you do not have the conversations that you have on The View or that I have on my show when I was on CNN and that I'll have at News Nation, although I want to do it a little differently. Regular people do not deal with these

things the way social media does and the way the media and the insiders do as an extension of social media. If I had to point at one bad guy, it wouldn't be the media in terms of the traditional media, whatever that means. It would be social media because you have outlets now that have no guidance other than their own appetite, avarice, and their profit. So it's a problem. But regular people never have this conversation. When you have people over for dinner, it'll come out in spurts, right? It'll come out in spurts. But then people start talking about other things. Their lives are not tied up in the search warrant of Mar-a-Lago. That is not where they are 24-7. Well, no, but people want to know, how did this come about? Because this is unprecedented.

One of the reasons that conversations that you would never be having with other people normally are coming up is because stuff does not make sense in the scheme of things. It's like, wait a minute, he took what? What do you mean you can't take classified? What are you talking about classified information? Weren't they pissed off at Hillary Clinton because they thought she had some classified information? How does this work? That's why people are talking about it. They are talking about it. They're talking about, listen, why don't I have any money left? Why am I just paying my taxes? Because we've been taxed over here. This guy changed the tax code and now you don't get to have an extra little money to take the kids to a dance party. You know, you got to watch your P's and Q's. You don't get to have a little extra house. You got to pay taxes on everything. little extra house. You got to pay taxes on everything. So it's like, well, can somebody just put a little relief out there for us? Because you want us to pay for X, Y, and Z.

And then you get your phone bill and the phone bill wants you to pay their taxes and the TV bill wants you to pay their taxes. Then you got TV and everybody's got a streaming service. Now what's happened is there are 5,000 streaming services. Used to be six, maybe a hundred networks, but they all show different stuff at the same time. Now you got to pay all this extra money, these little bitty gypsum drafts. So that's on top of it. People are getting used beyond reason. American citizens, in my opinion, pay tax and get nothing, very little in return for all these taxes. And you don't even know what the taxes are for.

Right, that's how they feel. But those two things go together. They think they don't get anything for it because they don't know where the taxes go. And that's part of the messaging of government. But we get caught up in these fights about, you know, look, my problem with what happened in Mar-a-Lago is not that they issued the search warrant. They didn't describe it well. They should have said, by the way, we didn't raid the guy's house. Stop saying that. And we asked for the stuff back. We talked to his lawyers. They kept saying no.

We told them this was going to happen. You know, they should have explained it differently. But Chris, even when they explain it differently, once you put one bullshit fact out, that's what people run with. Right. But that's just on the fringe. Well, that's all I'm saying is that I know a lot of people who voted for the former president, not twice, but once. And they are open to better ideas and better people. They were not happy that they had to vote with them. They were a little entertained, but ultimately they were depressed that they were like, well, I can't vote for Hillary Clinton, so this is all I have. And they became actually more angry at the system because of the choices it gave them.

But they are reasonable. They are reasonable. They want reasonable things to happen. They're not give me one fact about the search warrant and I'm going to believe all this crazy fringe shit. You know, we just listen to the fringes. We play to the fringes. We live in the fringes. The fringes, it's like the line in The Godfather.

Michael Corleone says, I try to get out. Every time I try to get out, they keep pulling me back in. Yeah. Why you got to bring up The Godfather with me, Whoopi? Because I'm Italian? Are you? Yeah, are you? Child, please.

That was good. You're right, though. But that's that game, though. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you do a great job, you know, in your position on The View. And I remember speaking to you when you were starting it. Even though you have your own politics and they put you squarely, you know, on one side of the aisle, you are open and you are decent.

I think so. I think that's really important. Well, I think 99% of the people are open and decent. Yes, me too. If you don't play to the fringe. But the problem is if you are open and decent, you have to figure out ways to get to that which you are entitled to. You have to figure out how to go vote in Georgia because people who are not open and decent

have made the laws play out in such a way where you're going, wait a minute, that doesn't make any sense. And then you have people and you say, but the last election was watched like a hawk by the Republicans, like hawks they watched this to make sure there were no shenanigans, only to discover that you think there were shenanigans anyway.

No, they don't. What they discovered was that they lost. That's what they discovered. And they knew that an extension of the demagoguery that they bought into allowed them to lie. And once Trump started echoing it, they can't go against Trump because, you know, he's the sacred cow over there now, but that's their problem. Well, he's our problem. Well, he is a challenge. He is a challenge for this country to show what it's really about and to see what will bring people together because it's easy to divide people. Do you still enjoy doing The View?

Yeah. You know, I find that I like it because it allows me to listen to lots of different folks talk so that when I do have folks over, we can gloss over that and get to the other stuff like how are the kids, you know, why is, you know, why do I have hair growing out of my ears? I'm not that old. We can get into the real stuff. And I kind of like having the conversations, you know,

but sometimes they're really hard because I feel like you're hitting your head against a wall. Because also people make their decisions about why they hate your guts, you know. People hate my guts. They say, you make their decisions about why they hate your guts. People hate my guts. They say, you're always talking about the negative aspect of stuff. Well, I think it is negative that you changed a law that's 50 years old that you didn't do enough homework about to see what the consequences were going to be for women, not Black women or Asian women or Hispanic, just women in general. You change the law without even saying, without even having the

information of what that means for someone who has a difficulty in the pregnancy that requires that they not keep this toxic thing in. And you think because there's a heartbeat, you think there's a heartbeat, you're not thinking about, is the child viable? Does the child have a brain and hands and arms? You're not thinking about any of that. You're not thinking about how did this little girl get pregnant? You've made no space. And to me, the fact that you didn't even have the courtesy to sit down with a doctor and say, what are the various things that this entails? Now we're trying to figure out what to do. Now we're trying to figure out what to do. People had stopped having abortions.

Nobody went to have an abortion out of fun. Nobody. And books, this idea, Chris, that books are being rewritten by some governor, not by a historian, not by somebody who recognizes what the real deal in the country was. It's like, just because you don't say that Bobby has a mom and a mom, just because you don't say it doesn't mean it's not happening. Doesn't mean people aren't going on with their lives,

but why do you want to make it harder? There's enough hard stuff in the world. Why do you need to make it harder for the kid and for the parents? This I don't understand. You don't have to like the lifestyle, but you don't have the right to make a child's life harder because you don't get it. They believe that the lifestyle, that this is what is believed by the fringe, by the fringe. Because again, I think overwhelmingly people in the country, whether they're forced to be in one party or the other, and an increasing number of people are leaving both parties, it's the fastest growing percentage in the electorate are those who are neither Democrat nor Republican. The fringe have been convinced that, oh, it's not enough for your kid to be this way, Whoopi, for your grandkid, for your great grandkid.

It's my kid has to be like this. My kid has to adopt their own pronouns. My kid has to go in a bathroom with all these different people who you say it's okay to be there. It's not just for you. You're making it my life, too. That's why I'm against it. So you're saying to me, I'm forcing you to accept the different people on the planet. And you want me to be the way they are.

So there's no more male or female. There's no more boys room and girls room. No more normal. Well, most boys and girls use whatever bathroom is free when they have to go. Just FYI for all, for everybody. They go wherever they have to go when they have to go. No, I don't want you to be anything like me, but I don't want you to make my child feel like he's not or she's not welcome. I don't want you to tell me how to live my life. You see, that's the difference between them and us. You live however you want to live, but get out of my way. If I'm in love with a man and I marry a man, it has nothing to do with you. As long as I'm paying my taxes and not killing people, it's none of your damn business. It's none of your business business. It's none of your

business. You don't want to see, I don't care what you want to see, don't go. See, you want to participate in everything and make it okay so you can come up and talk to people any old way. People are not going to take it anymore. You can't say certain words to people because they don't like them. Just like you don't like it when somebody says something you don't like sideways. You're mad. See, so I just feel like, listen, in America, you have the right to the pursuit of happiness, your happiness. There are certain things that we all decide is not okay. Hurting children, not okay. Sexualizing children, not okay. There are things that you are allowed to feel.

You're uncomfortable with me when I show up in church, then don't go to the church I go to. Be the bigger person. You go someplace else. Start your own church. So you could be with people who are like-minded. Don't come over here protesting what I believe because you don't believe it.

This is what I want. I feel like if we could do that, we might be able to get along a little bit better. We could if there wasn't so much money to be made and power to be had in keeping the division going. You're not wrong. And to cultivating a fringe. Now, one of the knitting aspects in our culture over time has been comedy.

I have become obsessed seeing how I've had an inordinate amount of time on my hands recently because I got shit canned. So I was reading a lot and watching a lot, trying to keep my head together. And I rewatched a lot of stuff. I certainly rewatched a lot of George Carlin stuff, which seems to me would play as well today as when he was saying it, except instead of the seven words, it would be the opposite. It wouldn't be that people are testing culture that way.

It would be that their existence, their definition of self, their feeling about who to love and how to be is what has become offensive and something that is only okay in doses. It's not words anymore. We still have problems with words sometimes, but it would be different. Have you given thought to using your gift for being funny and doing stand-up to discuss any of this stuff in that context? Have you ever thought about doing more of it? I was doing quite a bit of it, than COVID had. And COVID hit me a couple of times pretty, pretty hard. So I have not gone back out, and I'm, you know, I've written a lot of stuff, because I think there's much to be said, but now, you know, it's, you go out, and you hope for the

best, you know, I never used to be trepidatious about going out and performing, and sometimes I think about it at, when I'm at work. I think, well, somebody's pissed off today because, you know, this stuff floats past you. And my mother once said to me, you know, you can't be afraid of what you don't know. You don't know until you know. You know, you can't plan for what you don't know. You just go out and you hope for the best, always. So when I feel I'm about 70% these days, 70% up and at them. When I feel about 90%,

I probably get up and start doing it again. You think it's because you ran into trouble? Oh, no, in my shows? No, on The View. Oh, no, I'm always in trouble. I was always getting in trouble on The View. That's the nature of the show. That's why they

call it The View. So, you know, no, it's not that it's because I see people all the time. I go to a casino and see somebody. But getting up and the stamina of having to move around for a good hour and a half, because I can't, you know, I talk forever. So it takes a little more out of me. What about the power of it? I mean, there's something about comedy in our culture. You know, you had such a tremendous impact. And again, you know, my one beef with you is that

I don't hear you talk about your success enough you know I mean I knew that you'd won all the awards I knew you'd won two Oscars but the the you know your success has been fucking phenomenal and sometimes I feel like you know when you're getting in into with people on the views even sometimes I'm like you know you're not equals here you know in terms of your status as entertainers. I mean, you know, you're literally one of five people, women who've ever done this. And the only person to do it since you did it is Jennifer Hudson as a woman, but as a comedian. So my kids were watching me watch your special in some YouTube of your standup. of your standup. And they know you as like this kind of like agelessly, timelessly cool individual. Like, you know, to them from 19 to the 12, they're like, oh yeah, we know Whoopi Goldberg. Now a lot of that is the name. The name still works, Whoop. But cool. She's just cool. She's level-headed.

She's cool. The 19-year-old in college loved how you handled the situation on The View back in February. She learned something. She apologized for what she did not intend. And she took what came with it, which I thought was totally unfair as a consequence. I think that that was catering to the wrong things in our culture, not for you to discuss in your past. And you move forward and god bless you for it but they did not know how funny you are you're funny on the view but not when you're being professionally funny until they watch the acts that made my father lose a tooth and the power of it the power of of a whoopee of a george of you know you know, of Richard Pryor, you know, may he rest in peace.

The power, you know, there's not a lot. You know, you got like Sebastian Maniscalco. You got Bill Burr. You got Chappelle. You know, Chappelle went through it, but came out the other side. Powerful. George Lopez is the funniest man on the planet, and he is kicking everybody's ass. There's a lot of really great people out there.

And when I have the stamina, Chris, truly, when I have the stamina, you know, the hardest thing about getting older was not just getting older. It was getting older with long-term COVID. Yeah. And that has been a bitch. What do you have? What are your long symptoms? Let's compare, because I have it too, you know. Can't breathe. Resting breath or workout breath? Either. So if I'm, you know, I'm sitting on the show, doing the show, talking to you right now,

and I'm losing breath. So you see me adjust and try to take some deep breaths and just get it. Or coming up my stairs. I got stairs in my house, coming up the stairs, coming down the stairs. It's coming up the hill, not walking the way I used to. Like I used to like to walk. What do they say it is? They just say, you know, you got damage. That's it?

They can't do anything for you? Well, no, they can give me an inhaler. To work? Yeah, when I need it, yeah. But the idea that when you have more stamina, when's that going to be? What do you think? This shit gets better at some point?

Well, actually, I do feel I'll get better because it's not consistent. So if I'm laid low, like I did nothing for the last month. I have more energy now than I've had in a very long time. From the rest? Yeah, a shocking thing.

Something I never, ever did before. The R-E-S-T. I have more energy now than I've had in a very long time. From the rest? Yeah. A shocking thing. Something I never, ever did before. The R-E-S-T. Never did it before. Ever. And this last time, and I started to see it the year before when I was able to take rest. I found that I could handle a lot more, but I tell you this, the, the walking and talking thing on stage that is not cute because people think you're getting ready to

keel over. So I, you know, I feel like maybe, you know, not next year, but the year after. Well, I don't want to kill you, but I'm just saying in watching, going back, we need you. But in going back and listening to Carlin and watching some of the stuff about him, it's just, it's so now. And the reason I like it is because, you know, I've had a problem over the years.

I never really talked about it a lot, but a lot of the comedians who got deep into politics, I wasn't sure that they were always helpful to the process because my question was, well, what are they feeding? Are they feeding cynicism? Are they making it easier to laugh at the system and mock it? Is that what we need? And, you know, I would think about it, but a master at their best, you, Carlin, you know, Lopez doesn't do as much social commentary stuff of this vein that we're doing, but the men and women who do, we need to laugh more. We need to laugh at ourselves, not mock that we have a democracy or mock our leaders or mock politicians necessarily,

you know, to the point where you just don't respect them anymore. But we need to laugh about a little bit of this. I always felt that that was your gift. And, you know, to the point where you just don't respect him anymore. But we need to laugh about a little bit of this. I always felt that that was your gift. And, you know, Carlin too. And, you know, I know at some point you're going to say, stop putting me in the same sentence as him. But you belong in the same sentence. And, you know, there's something about it that is magical.

That I'm mad. You've got it right about why I'm mad, and now I'm laughing. Because that shit doesn't happen in our political system. These people are doubling down on demonizing. They are not laughing about this stuff. You know, Trump was funny in the beginning. It's not funny now. See, he was never funny to me.

But I'm saying to his supporters, he had them laughing. Now they are outraged. But again, I think they're the minority. And I know the majority is desperate to have a laugh. And not because nothing matters, but because everything matters. And you can't just focus on the worst of it all the time, which is what we seem to do. You know, there are some great folks out there who are doing exactly what you're talking about. A kid called Earthquake. I call him a kid. He's not a kid.

Earthquake. Do you know Earthquake? Yeah. He is really good. And I say George Lopez because George has the ability to look at everybody and realize that we're on, we're the same belt. We're on the same belt. So he gets us all at the same time. And then it's like, so why are we doing this to ourselves and each other? That's the stuff I love. And laughter is everything. Laughter is everything. And so I know what you're saying. And I, I and I will get back out just because I want to empty these books. I've been writing all this stuff down. And it's always about, is it just me? Or, you know, are you seeing? Is everybody seeing this? Because I feel like if everybody's seeing it, we all believe there's an invisible thing keeping us from doing anything about it. You know, I can't tell you how many times, you know, I've thought about, well, do I get up and explain to people again, you know, what this might mean to us in the long run. Because I'm a long run kind of person.

You know, I want stuff that I can say, here's where we are. Here's where we look like we're going. And that precipice is where I'm standing. I'm standing over here because I'm going to watch y'all go over the edge. You know, I want to find a way because I don't want to be a doom and gloom. But you're in the position

where you haven't seen more stuff that people seem to be ignoring around you since you did Ghost. Yeah. And that was the plot of the movie. It's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's crazy. It's crazy, baby.

Let me ask you something. So with all you've achieved and now this kind of like bonus, which is where you became, you know, like a voice in the head of America on The View, right? The show has tremendous cultural impact. What do you want? Like, you know, you've done everything. You know, you have done everything that people who get into your business aspire to want to do. You are a household name. You matter in politics. You matter in comedy. You matter in movies. You've won all the awards. What drives you? Curiosity. I want to see where I'm going.

I want to see where it takes me. You know, the things I wanted, you know, I wanted. One day if I make some money, I want to be an ambassador. I'm serious. To where? I think I'd like to be an ambassador to either Egypt or Italy. Very nice. Yeah.

But, you know, in order to do that, you got to fix stuff up, right? You got to do your own house. You got to do your... So I figure if I'm going to fix anything up, I might as well fix up my house. That is true. Not the people's house because it's costly to be in it. But you got to, you know... You got to have some job. Public service is not cheap.

Apparently not. Apparently not. Because they don't really pay. And that's an appointed position. I think you basically get nothing and you can't take anything from anybody. No, you can't. They call them emoluments. Can't take any emoluments.

Well, you used to not be able to. But I thought since the other guy was able to, I thought maybe they were changing stuff and we could. Yeah, you can take him as long as you can blame somebody else for taking more. That's right. Than you took. Were you surprised and do you think I made the right move coming back? Honestly, yes. I think you did make the right move.

I don't think you're one to sit around. Listen, whatever went down is not as heavy as what needs to come up. You're not a sit arounder. So I think you did what was right for you. I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. I knew that I wanted to help and I wanted to come back. There was a period where I was going to do something else because it just spun my head too much about what I thought I knew and how I thought things worked. But then I realized that it's just worth it to me to take the beating. Why did they beating you up? So I keep saying you need several things,

systemic changes. You need systemic changes to foster cultural change in America. So what do you need? You need a shame campaign to do two things, to get Congress to put in term limits and to get states to apportion their electors. And if you do that, then the electoral college basically goes away as a problem to the extent that it is. And having people in Congress forever accumulating power instead of progress goes away. Those are your shame campaigns. You then need legal changes that deal with voting. Ranked choice voting can work if it's done the right way. The last thing I think you need,

which is getting me beat up, is more parties. Because I don't see a way out of this because it's too easy this way. Whoop, I could run against you. You're one party. I'm the other party. I don't even care which one it is. You're the Democrat. I'm the Republican. All I do is say that you're bad. Whoop, he's bad, bad. I'll tell you why. You see that cat that's been walking around this interview? That cat, that cat is a bad cat and she knows it. And that cat attacks everybody. And she still has a bad person. I heard the cat killed somebody.

It doesn't matter if it's true. As long as I can get my people to fear you, I win. There is no incentive for me to be better than you. What is this battle of ideas? Yeah, I got a battle of idea. You suck. There's my idea. You are a threat.

You are a threat to my safety and my kids. That goes away if you have to build a coalition to keep your power. Every other mature democracy does not run on two parties, only us. Well, let's start with our own party. I will have the shrimp party. The shrimp? The shrimp party, yes. Why are we calling it that? Because that's the name I like. You got a better name? You like shrimp? Well, I like the shrimp party because I like the idea of many shrimps partying in the ocean, but that might not be what you like. It's one of the craziest things I've ever heard in my life, what you just said. Yes. You like the idea of shrimps partying in the ocean? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. That's crazy stuff. It makes me feel like the last time I got the dosage wrong on my THC and I had shrimp swimming all over the place.

This is me straight as an arrow. You know, you have to have an imagination. You have to be able to see beyond what's right there. You have to be able to see what's possible. So I like that idea. Anything to get us back to the people. Whoopi, I want to tell you, you've been a good friend to me. You've been an example to me on the view of how you can come across without coming across cross.

You show, I believe, a lot of decency, a lot of humility. And I appreciate you for that. You've given me good advice every time I've ever asked you. And you're doing me a favor by being here now. And I really appreciate you for it. It's my pleasure. You know, your dad, I'm just going to say this. Your dad was my friend no matter what. He would send a note if there was hell to pay. I got a note. You know, your mom is the same way. And we didn't see each other often, but I always knew that if I was true, they'd stand by me. If I wasn't fake and I wasn't full of crap, they would stand by me. Whether they liked what I was about at that moment or not,

whether they liked what I was about at that moment or not. They'd always say, you're entitled to your opinion. And for me, you know, that was everything. And I've known you a long time. And you're a really good man, a really decent man. And, you know, you evolve, you move on. You know, we can stay in the toilet because, you know, they love flushing us up and down. You know, the key is to get out of the toilet, dry off and move on.

You know, so I got you. I got you. I appreciate you. I wish you well. I can't wait till you have more stamina and you're doing more of what I believe you do best. And that's saying something when you've won every damn award there is for everything you can do. The Emmett Till movie, when it comes out, I promise you this, I'm going to do it on my show. Cool. I'll be at News Nation then. If you want to come on and talk about it, that's fine, but I'm going to do it anyway. Cool. Because I agree with you about the need to remind, you know, we just passed 9-11. We say never forget. Forget what? I believe people have a hard time answering that question beyond, well, terrorists did bad things. It's not what it was about. It was about how we came together in loss. And we need that now. Whoopi, God bless and

thank you. And you too, my darling. Love to the fam. Thank you. Thank you. A little taste of why Whoopi Goldberg is loved, but also respected, but also checked the way that she is. You know, what she says really provokes people to feel. Now, sometimes they're going to like it. Sometimes they're not going to like it. And both are okay. Now, sometimes they're going to like it. Sometimes they're not going to like it. And both are okay. But it's also a little bit of a reflection of what an amazing journey. Again, she has achieved things in entertainment as a performer that so few have. It's great to have her on the podcast. I hope you benefited from it. Let me know. Comment 516-412-6307. Leave your email information and let me know what you thought. Subscribe, follow, get the free agent merch so we can get money together and start giving it away. Thank you very much for being with us on the podcast. We will see you soon.