The Chris Cuomo Project - Why This Texas Democrat Is Going Viral

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

James Talarico (Texas State Representative) joins Chris Cuomo to discuss the intersection of faith, politics, and public service. Talarico reflects on his viral Joe Rogan appearance, his progressive Christian identity, and why he believes the Democratic Party must reconnect with its moral roots. He explains his resistance to toxic online culture, how he walks the line between calling out bad ideas and respecting opponents, and what lessons he draws from both seminary and the Texas statehouse. Cuomo and Talarico also explore systemic extremism, media incentives, gerrymandering, and whether national office is the best place to make real change. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Support our sponsors: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get 20% off + free shipping with promo code CUOMO at shopmando.com! #mandopod Sign up for your $1 per month Shopfiy trial at http://shopify.com/chrisc Reverse hair loss with @iRestorelaser! Subscribe & Save for 25% off or more + free shipping on the iRestore REVIVE+ Max Growth Kit, and unlock HUGE savings on the iRestore Elite with the code CHRIS at https://www.irestore.com/chris ! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Not going to be popular in politics by being nice, not these days, right? Wrong. One of the fastest growing stars in politics is somebody who is doing nothing that social media wants him to. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. James DelTalarico. Do you know that name? I think you might. You've been watching Rogan? You've been watching TikTok? You've been seeing this really sweet-faced young man who just seems to disarm people no matter what the debate is, talking about faith, talking about integrity, talking about what Jesus wanted us to do, Jesus wanted us to do, secular as well as religious, ethical, moral. No sniping, no insults. And yet, he is a multi-term representative in the House in Texas. He's a state-level politician who is all over national airwaves. How odd, How rare. I wonder why that is. Want to know? Listen to

James Tallarico and I guarantee you at the end of this interview you are going to say one thing. I wish he were my fill-in-the-blank of some high office. Here is Representative Tallarico proving me right. James Tallarico, good to see you again. Thanks for having me. So state representatives are not usually a national focus, but you are. Why do you think you keep getting platformed nationally?

And not just by my chunky self, but the likes of Joe Rogan and all kinds of TV and digital pursuits. Why do you think it is? What's resonating? Well, actually you were one of the first national shows to reach out and have me on. So thank you for that. And I do think more attention needs to be put on state legislators,

because this is where the real policymaking is happening across the country. A lot of our media, a lot of our politics is nationalized now. And I actually think that's that's unproductive and unhealthy. So I'm actually I'm happy that that, you know, a state rep is getting attention. But more broadly, I think that the Democratic Party has a real problem and needs to get outside of its comfort zone. And so the fact that I was willing to go on Joe Rogan's podcast, I've been on Fox News, I've been on the Christian Broadcasting Network,

meeting people where they're at and having sometimes uncomfortable conversations with people who aren't in the Democratic coalition, that I think is what the party needs now more than ever. And I think that's what the attention exposes is a hunger for people who will meet people where they're at and convey a message directly to those listeners and those viewers.

Some of it was the course correction that you provide to Christians. I think that was one of the things that made you appealing. Originally, the media was probably hoping that you were just a self-hating Christian, because very often we like to market people who bash their own faith, but that's not what it is. You have taken upon yourself as a divinity student, so obviously the theology is very important to you beyond the dogma, to talk to Christians about the hypocrisy of saying you believe it but not living it. Where does that come from and how has it been received in and around Austin, Texas, where you serve?

Yeah, it's been interesting because some folks have called me a progressive Christian, and I understand what they mean because, you know, politically or when it comes to policy, I do have progressive views. But in some ways, I consider myself a conservative Christian because, you know, politically or when it comes to policy, I do have progressive views, but in some ways I consider myself a conservative Christian because, you know, I believe in the authority of scripture. I believe in Christian doctrines. And so from a theological perspective, I'm pretty conservative. You know, I take a lot of inspiration

from the late Pope Francis, who was also, you know, in some ways, politically progressive, but also theologically conservative. And so these terms kind of get thrown around and maybe have different meanings in different contexts. But I've gotten so many messages over the last week in particular since that Rogan interview from people all over the state, all over the country, and some people from different countries who have sent me really personal messages about their own faith journeys and their discomfort with how religion has been used in recent years, recent decades, to hurt a lot of people. And they're thankful that someone is providing

a different perspective. Even if they don't agree with me on every issue people, and they're thankful that someone is providing a different perspective. Even if they don't agree with me on every issue, I think they're grateful someone is pushing back against some of the folks who are twisting our religion and using it to protect their own power and their own wealth. Well, usually Christians are one trick pony, right? It's all about being anti-choice or anti-reproductive rights or pro-life, whatever vernacular you want. And you did pull a Bergoglio. You flip it on them and say you make your faith about what you're against instead of

what you're supposed to be for and your demonstration of loving mercy, as Bergoglio loved to talk in Buenos Aires, but also certainly as Pope Francis. Why do you think that distinction is lost, and why is it so much easier for people to be against, rather than living as Jesus actually instructed? Well, this is not unique to Christianity, right? Power powerful people using religion to advance their own self-interest, that's a tale as old as time. It's been happening in our religion since, I think, Emperor Constantine. That was only 300 years after Jesus was executed by the Roman Empire.

So this is something we've struggled with throughout our history, right? Emperors, dictators, politicians, televangelists using our religion to push their own agenda. And you know, the idea that Christianity is synonymous with being anti-gay and anti-abortion, that's a pretty recent phenomenon. I don't think people realize that. This is, I pointed out on that podcast interview

that the Southern Baptist Convention was pro-choice until the late 70s. So this is really a phenomenon of the religious right, which is a movement that started in the late 70s, early 80s with Ronald Reagan, with Jerry Falwell, with some of those figures. And it has just gone unchallenged, I think, in this country. I mean, Jimmy Carter may have been one of the last Democratic elected officials who really spoke passionately about his evangelical faith. And we haven't really seen that. You've got Raphael Warnock, who I think the world of,

but we need way more folks who are pushing back against that narrative and creating space for people to have different views on these topics. Now, I wanna clarify, you know, Christians who are anti-abortion, I think they're, I respect that position, I do. I just talked about Pope Francis, he was anti-abortion, I think they're, I respect that position, I do. I just talked about Pope Francis, he was anti-abortion. And at least he was consistent in that pro-life view, right?

He was anti-abortion, but he was also anti-poverty. He was anti-climate change, he was anti-war. So he was very consistent, and I respect that. And I am always willing to sit down with a fellow believer who may come to a different opinion about the issue of abortion, as long as it feels like they are serious and consistent morally on that issue and on other issues.

And so all I'm trying to do is provide a little space for those who come to a different theological place on the issue of abortion to still be allowed in this community, in the church. And it feels like for the last 40 years, if you're a pro-choice and you're a Christian, you're kind of seen by many folks in the church as not a real Christian, because it's become so synonymous. And so I'm trying to push back against that a little bit. So why Rogan and how did you interpret his seeming to be completely overwhelmed by you on that podcast?

I mean, he is generally an active listener. And that podcast is often, you know, it's a platform for many things, but when it comes to political ideology, it tends to play to the fringe and conspiracies and all this other nonsense. And he has you on and he seemed completely in awe of you and wanted you to be president

as soon as you left the studio. Well, I don't know how serious he was about that, but I do think it was a real connection that we made on that show. I was struck by how open and curious he is, and that, in my experience as being a politician, those are the best interviewers. It actually reminds me a lot of you,

as someone who actually is in the conversation. Sometimes you have an interviewer who has a list of questions, they're just going through it. Maybe even sometimes they're trying to do gotchas, they're trying to pin you down and create a moment. But the best interviewers are people who are genuinely curious about who you are, where you come from, how you're thinking about these things.

It feels like a real human conversation that you would have with a friend or a family member or at a bar. And when you can do that on a big platform like this or like the Rogan podcast, I think it's, it's really attractive to people. You know, now I agree, sometimes that openness can get you a little bit of trouble because you may have some people who have some questionable views on your show. But you know, I would rather have someone who is much more open than someone who's more closed. I think it just creates an opportunity

to have a real understanding between two people, and that's just so rare in our civic discourse these days. -♪ Support comes from Mando. Got to tell you something. I sweat like a farm animal. Mando. Got to tell you something. I sweat like a farm animal. Mando works. Okay? Mando works.

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So here's why I wanted you to come back on James. One is because, uh... Mmm, I love ravioli. Oh tanta fama. Since when do you speak Italian? Since we partnered with SAP Concur. Their integrated travel and expense platform and breakthrough solutions with AI gave me time back to dive into our financial future. We expand into Europe in 2027 so I'm getting ready. Well you can predict the future? I can predict you'll like that message. What message? Whoa hey we all got bonuses. You can save for college now. I don't have kids. You don't say. SAP Concur helps your business move forward faster. Learn more at concur.com. I believe what you're saying is missing in your party.

And I care about your party for two reasons. One, I'm stuck in a binary system that I have complete contempt for, but I am stuck in it. Me too. So I would love to have more parties. I would love for the political parties to have less, much less control over our process and have it be less about outside money, but a lot of that is legal, a lot of that is tradition, and I'm stuck in it because all the powerful prefer it. The second reason is I was raised by a real one, a real Christian philosopher politician,

who you remind me of in terms of how thoughtful you are about your positions. I mean, you and my father Mario have very different upbringings and ethnic backgrounds, but your doxology and your idea about your faith is very similar. And you both face the same problem in different eras. Your party is running in the opposite direction of where you are. They got beat by MAGA, and they believe that a populist movement that grabs real grievance, not fake, that was the mistake that the left made with MAGA. You thought they were posers and fakers. The grievance is real. The disaffection is real. The affordability issues are real. The anger is real. And your party is now leaning into it because it beat you. And they are not saying the kinds of things that you're saying.

What do you think of that? I think if your viewers haven't it beat you and they are not saying the kinds of things that you're saying. What do you think of that? I think if your viewers haven't listened to your father's 1984 convention speech, the tale of two cities, I think it is the best encapsulation of what it means to be a Democrat. It's what the Democratic Party should be, a focus on people who are left out and left behind. And it feels like we strayed from that over the last few years, maybe the last few decades. But I do think that there is a moment here for a Democratic Party that remembers its roots, remembers its heritage, FDR and LBJ from my state or Mario Cuomo from your state.

That legacy is so needed right now when we have such division, we have such concentrated wealth and power, we have such a corrupt political system, we've got the greatest chasm between the haves and the have-nots that we've ever seen. We're desperate for an old school democratic party. And so, you know, people are saying what I'm doing is new. I actually think it's very old. And it's something that we have to get back in touch with if we're going to not just win elections,

because that's not really the point. The point is to get political power to make people's lives better. That's the ultimate goal. And if we can't change how we're connecting with people, then we're not going to gain political power, we're not going to make a difference in this country. So that's what I'm trying to do is help our party reconnect with its historical roots, because I think it has so much to offer during this moment of crisis

in our country? So I was seeing something the other day that I wanted to get your comment on. So I was watching clips of you at some community meetings or they were legislative hearings or something like that. And I thought it was interesting because you were doing it in your own way and you were way on the right side of the line of fairness. But the clips were going kind of viral because you were playing a form of kind of gotcha with different people who

were bringing up weird bills or whatever it was. There were a couple of different examples. And it didn't worry me, but I didn't know how to take it because, look, that is the currency right now. You have to be owning the other side. You have to show that they are worse, that they are stupid, they are to be feared and opposed. You're not using that kind of language. I want to be very clear. But I did feel that you were, I worry about the same thing with Buttigieg. You're very bright, you're very articulate, you know what you're talking about better than most people you deal with

because you take the time to think and prepare, but there is a risk that you use it as a sword in politics and it will be well received and it is. The clips are doing very, very well. But is there something you have to be careful about in that? Yes, so thankful you asked about this because this is something I think about constantly. I think the difference that I try to focus on

is the difference between owning an idea or a bad bill versus owning a person. The difference between saying that an idea is bad or an idea is harmful or an idea lacks kind of logical consistency. That I think is very important because in a democracy, we have to have a rigorous debate about ideas, right? That's how this is all supposed to work. And you have to be able to, this is again something I think my party struggles with, you have to make the argument, right? Sometimes Democrats, especially in recent years,

we just think, well, we're right. And everyone who disagrees with us is clearly wrong or they're bigoted or they're racist, right? Misogynistic. And we don't want to engage with that. I think the opposite. In democracy, you win by persuading people. So you have to make that argument.

You've got to win the debate. But there is a huge difference between beating an idea and beating a person, meaning saying that an idea is bad versus a person is bad. And so the line I try to walk, and I think to your point, I fail all the time at this, it's a difficult line to walk. It's how do you vigorously contest the idea,

or the bill, or the legislation, while still holding space for that person's humanity as a bearer of the divine image, as we would describe it in our faith. That is a real tricky line to walk. I do think I've been able to do it successfully in some instances, and some of the best feedback I get is, I really appreciate in this video how polite you were

and respectful you were to your opponent. To me, that's the best feedback I can get, which is I made a good argument, I use logic and reason and passion and rhetoric. You know, rhetoric is, you know, was an art form a long time ago before it became a pejorative. Using all those things to win a debate, but still loving and respecting my opponent, loving and respecting my enemy, as scripture calls us to do. That's the line.

And it's always so tricky. And I agree. The media environment is it creates these temptations, right? Because if you own somebody, if you say someone is an evil person, man, you can get more clicks and more views and more followers than you can imagine. Right? If you adopt those kind of Trumpian tactics of just degrading a person and kind of brutalizing a person, that can be very successful.

And for an elected official like me, that's a temptation, right? Because I want my message to spread. I want to win the next election. And so it's resisting that temptation as much as I can and loving my enemies while I still fight for what I believe in. I don't know if that makes sense,

but that's the line that I see that's super important not to cross. I think you have it exactly right. And by the way, I never said the word fail because you didn't fail. You succeeded in- I do fail at it. And there are moments when I-

But you succeeded in the game as it is played. And the problem you have is, and I don't know what the right advice is, I wish I did, is that the commodity, the currency, the coin of the realm is not what you do. And my caution to people is, it never works out for anybody but Trump. Anybody who goes down that road,

whether it's Ted Cruz, any righty you wanna pick, and now you're seeing it on the left with Crockett and AOC, and it never works out because here's my fundamental axiom. It's not a theory, but America is about sweet strength, not harshness. We are not bullies. Now people will shake their head at that and they will say, what are you talking about? You guys are so violent.

That's different. There is an outrage. There is a violence to us as a people. There's no question about it. Maybe uniquely so. But America at her best is not a bully. We hate bullies here. And we have become a bullying political culture,

especially in the digital space, especially on Rogan's podcast. You know, the pod brothers, it's a really tricky thing for me, James, because unlike you, you are very sophisticated emotionally and intellectually, especially for a young guy. And I don't mean to condescend, that's the problem in your party.

But I'm an old guy, right? I'm 55. And I actually could never be in elected office because I actually am a fairly rough around the edges violent guy. Like I could do something stupid pretty much at all times, which is why we can do better than me as an elected leader. But you are in a tough spot, because what is rewarded is not what's right. And you know that and it's almost like you have to have the patience, thank God you are young, that it will come back around to reasonable, to not

just left and right in this battle to the bottom, but like, can this actually be fixed? You know, do we have to hate each other all the time? Unless there's a bigger boogeyman who scares all of us at once. That's where your sweet spot is going to be. And I just hope the timing works out. Yeah, I definitely agree with that analysis. But the only thing I'd push back on is I do feel, and I think this reaction to that Rogan podcast proves that

earnestness and sincerity and compassion and understanding are gonna make a comeback. I don't do that for sure. You know, on my cynical days, I think we may be in a descending spiral that we can't get out of. But on my hopeful days, I see how people respond to this. And the thing I've most, the feedback I've gotten the most

since that Rogan interview is the phrase breath of fresh air, right? Like a breeze kind of blowing through the political discourse. You know this, Chris, there's one of my favorite verses in scripture is Matthew 5, 5, the meek shall inherit the earth. Again, that doesn't seem like it would be true, right? I mean, you look throughout history,

and you're like, no, it's the powerful. It's the bullies that inherit the earth. They're the ones who win. But the countercultural thing about Christianity is this belief that, yes, violence may win in the short run, right? Jesus was crucified on Good Friday. He lost on Good Friday. But on Easter Sunday, something else wins in the long run, right?

Love ultimately prevails in the long run. And that's, you know, you can see that in nature, right? The wind takes out the mountain in the long run. The water takes out the rock in the long run, even though it's softer. But over time, it is more powerful. And so I guess that's the long term that I'm making, is that love and compassion are gonna win in the long run.

It may not win you immediate views on social media, it may not win you the next election, but I do think that this is what people ultimately want. The other stuff is like, it's like empty calories, right? It feels like food, but it doesn't actually nourish you in the long run. I do believe that we are made by love for love as children of God.

And so I do think it's where our heart longs to be at the end of the day, even if we do trip on the way there. So that's just, again, that's faith. I have nothing to prove that. It is a leap of faith. But I don't know, I do I think people may be ready for it again. It may it may make a comeback. Support comes from Shopify. Now Shopify is really important, as

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It's also hike season, pool season, picnic season, and yeah, I'm down season. So drink it up with Tim's ice lattes, now whipped for a smooth taste. Order yours on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. The righteousness of the grievance is real, and I'm okay with it.

You have angry people who are rightfully upset of the grievance is real and I'm okay with it. You have angry people who are rightfully upset at their lot in life and how the system seems to be a burden rather than a benefit. On the right as on the left, I mean, that's what you guys were, with a union working class party. I mean, that's what Mario Cuomo was.

He was underclass all day. He wasn't even considered a white guy. I am, but he was an ethnic, you know. So it's the remedies that I worry about for you guys. That MAGA was playing with a lot of culture stuff. It's easy to say, I don't want my 12 year old daughter playing against someone's Cuomo's size, you know. I get it, I get it. This almost never happens, but yeah, I get it. That's a tough argument.

Not easy to win. But the remedies that I'm hearing coming from the left now, the comfort with calling yourselves socialists, when you know that that word is a death sentence. If you have to explain in politics you are losing and you have to explain from jump why you're saying, yeah, capitalism is no good, we gotta look at more socialistic. And it's, I'm hearing it more and more in your party.

What do you make of that? What do you do with that? I think it actually comes back to the way my, a lot of folks in my party have lost touch with religion and spirituality. I mean, you know, so many of the successful, progressive social movements, you mentioned the labor movement, civil rights movement,

farm workers movement, they were rooted in religion. I mean, the American civil rights movement was an explicitly Christian movement. Now, of course, there were, you know, allies from other faiths, you know, Jewish rabbis were out there on the front lines, marching with Dr. King. But the organizing was done in churches,

and Dr. King was a pastor, first and foremost, before he was anything else. And I think that's so important because they were rooted in something deeper than the kind of, you know, the ups and downs of a political fight. And I worry that, you know, socialism, communism, even capitalism, these things can become religions, right? They become dogmas. And when you don't have something else to root yourself in, so you start rooting yourself in political philosophies or economic theories, right? When in reality, right, the United States is a mix of all these things, right?

We have free market system, but we also have social security and Medicare, and public education and public libraries. So the idea that you would somehow kind of lean into an ideology in such a pure way as if you know we want to be completely capitalistic or socialistic, right? I just that one doesn't reflect the reality of what this country is and what's made it great. I oftentimes think in terms of economic policy, I do want to go back to the 1950s when we had shared prosperity and when we were growing together. That to me does sound like making America great again is getting back to that economic system we had in the middle of the 20th century. But so I do think there's a danger in when people in my party lose touch with faith or spirituality,

you start to believe in some of these political philosophies or economic philosophies, and you act like those are your religion, and that can be incredibly dangerous, and it makes you myopic and unwilling to listen to other perspectives or test ideas, right? Like, let's see if a policy works and be okay to admit when it doesn't work,

or if a program doesn't work. We should be okay of trying new things and seeing what's actually effective based on experience and data. And you can't do that when it becomes your religion. Do you see an advance in extremism in our political culture, if not our culture overall, and how do you believe we combat it, context the shootings at the Israeli embassy, this healthcare CEO, Minnesota politicians, what we just saw in New York City.

It seems to me that we used to, I'm old enough to remember when we were afraid of the extremists without, now they are all homegrown and seem to be susceptible to social media extremism, that it's all okay. This guy who was clearly diseased of mind, who just shot up the building in Manhattan, he is getting support online. He's dead, but he's getting support online. This is what the NFL gets. This is what the corporate elite get.

This is what happens when you ignore people who are hurting. That is extremism. We've never in America condoned violence as a methodology for political change until now, I think. Am I right? Am I wrong? And how do you see it? No, I think you're completely right.

All I would say is we should recognize how these systems encourage this, right? Sometimes I worry that we make this so individualistic, so personal, where we have extreme people in our politics, which is true, but I think we don't recognize how these systems promote more extreme rhetoric, more extreme policymaking, you know, not just our media systems, which we've already talked about, but like these social media algorithms, you know, not just our media systems, which, you know, we've already talked about, but like these social media algorithms, these platforms,

they get more clicks and more profit when there's more extreme outlandish statements that are made or extreme and outlandish actions that are taken. They're profiting off the extremism. So it's literally encouraging it, right? I mean, all of us see this, right? If you post something reasonable or you post a conversation where you're actually breaking

through and having some kind of mutual understanding between two people, that doesn't get a lot of clicks and views. But if you've got folks who are throwing expletives at each other, that's going to grab attention, right? And attention is, as you mentioned, the coin of the realm now. And so I just, I do want us to recognize that we are kind of being played. We are being pitted against each other

by these giant platforms that are profiting off of our divisions. But there's also systems within our politics. So I think of gerrymandering and redistricting, which is obviously a fight that's happening now in Texas. But, you know, when I got elected, I represented a swing district. I won the district with 51% of the vote.

Donald Trump had won the district by one point the election before I won that seat. So it was a classic district where you had a mix of people. And it was great to represent that district because it forced me as a politician to listen and appeal to everybody, right? Because I couldn't just win with Democrats.

I couldn't just win with my people. I had to build a big tent, a big coalition. I was targeted in the 2020 redistricting by my Republican colleagues. They basically cracked my district in half and destroyed my seat. The only way I survived is because a seat next door where I happened to grow up opened up. The Democratic rep went on and ran for something else. So I moved about a mile down the road and ran in the seat where I grew up. That seat though is a heavily

Democratic district, the district I have now. I think Joe Biden won my district with 75% of the vote, something crazy. And that is how most districts are these days. Most districts are deep blue or deep red. And just think about the incentives that puts in front of a politician, right? We can hope that elected officials have profiles and courage, but you know, let's not pretend

that that's a regular occurrence. They are self-interest, we are self-interested actors trying to win reelection. And so if your district is a deep blue district or a deep red district, the only threat to your reelection is your extreme flank. Right. In primary, right? You don't have to worry, the general is predetermined because of gerrymandering. Right.

So the only threat is your primary. So I just I say all that just to recognize that the systems we have encourage extremism. And so yeah, you could replace Marjorie Taylor Green, but someone's going to take her spot because the systems demand someone like that. Yeah. And so until we can actually reform

the system on all these different levels, the media systems, the political systems, we're not gonna see different outcomes in our politics. Support comes from I Restore. Listen to this, I got good personal insight for you. So I ran out of my I Restore serum, and I ran out of my I Restore thickening shampoo, even though I'm not shampooing my hair as

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That's what's in the helmet. That could be the game changer. Okay? And I don't know which one it is, but I'm telling you I felt a difference Give yourself the gift of hair confidence limited time subscribe and save 25% off or more and free shipping on the iris store revive plus max growth kit and Our listeners are getting a huge discount on the irisore Elite device when you use the code Chris at iRestore.com. So head over to iRestore.com, use the code Chris, and you'll get my show's exclusive discounts. Please support our show. Tell them Cuomo sent you. The approval rating for Congress is somewhere around my vertical leap, like 20 inches or

something like that. And yet the reelection rate is over 95%. So that doesn't exist in any other market system unless there are controls. And that's what we see. And that is the poison of the party. And that is how the few wind up dominating the many. And everything that happens gets passed through this, whether it's war in the Middle East,

war anywhere, or a shooting anywhere, everything must be processed through the lens of which side is it worse for. And you see this even with something that is as absurd as the Epstein situation. It was only a matter of time before Trump had to say, well, you better look at Clinton. What about what Obama did? The only way out of anything these days is to show that there's more reason to be pissed at the other side. It's all that works.

How do you get out of it? I think it has, the system itself has to be reformed. And I know this feels like process. It feels like inside baseball, you know, you talk to any political consultant and they'll be like, don't talk about redistricting, no one knows what that is. Right? Like you got to talk about health care and education.

Of course, those are issues that I care deeply about and do a lot of work on. But until we actually, you know, reform the system itself, redistricting, money and politics, social media platforms, until the structures are fixed, we're not gonna see progress on those issues that we care about. We're not gonna see a, you know, shared prosperity in this country. We're not gonna see good public schools.

We're not gonna see universal healthcare. The system itself has to be fixed first. And so I know that is complicated and it takes a lot of explaining, but I don't know. I think people are ready to be talked to like adults, I do. I think the American people,

maybe they don't know all the inside out of the political system, but they know something is broken and they're ready for people who will explain it clearly and provide some real solutions that could make the system work for everybody again. If you could get people to allow the solutions. The problem is they won't change. I mean, you know, a beautiful issue in this regard

is actually a very ugly issue that you live with intimately in Texas, which is immigration. Everybody knows the fixes. All you have to do is talk to anybody who works the line and they'll tell you that the main thing they want is more processing ability and different rules. Everybody knows that, but you'll never get it because the problem works better than the

solutions. Now it's been skewed a little bit because the Democrats screwed it up so bad that it created an opportunity for a harshness that Trump grasped and is now doing, did well with it. Now I think he's got overreach with the ICE deportations and he's lost the majority on that. So there's a little bit of flux going on, but people aren't in the solutions business, Mr. Talarico, which brings me to what the ultimate question is for you.

Does Talarico stay in politics? Do you want to move up in terms of your ability to affect change? Do you think you're built for it? Do you think you have the appetite for it? These are the questions I'm struggling with right now and doing a lot of praying and reflecting on that. I felt like I'm in a period of discernment

in my public service career. And I'm wrestling with these questions because I made the decision to go to seminary in my second term, largely because I just felt like I was hitting a brick wall in my public service as a state rep. And I didn't feel like I was making the progress that I wanted to make and making the impact I wanted to make.

And so I was kind of questioning the whole thing. And the only thing that pulled me out of that spiral was going to seminary because I think it provided, again, those roots into something a lot deeper than the kind of the daily back and forth, the fights, the corruption of our current political system. And I am trying to figure out if I can make more

of an impact in the ministry, because I do think that, you know, I'm on TikTok, I'm on Instagram, I'm talking about my faith and how it should inform, you know, our life together in this state and this country. And I'm just, I'm flooded with comments from Gen Z and millennials who are just like, I've never heard this. Like, I've been looking for this perspective.

If I've had comments of like, if I had heard this when I was younger, I'd still be in the church. I've gotten personal messages from people who say, I want a relationship. If they had a pastor like you, see, that's the problem in the church. I've gotten personal messages from people who say, I want a relationship. If they had a pastor like you, see, that's the problem with the church. The church is just a building. It's all about the man or woman inside of it

and how they inspire you. I'm on the board of the Passionists, which is a religious community within Catholicism. And, you know, there are so many, they don't run diocese. They have a couple, but they don't do that. They do traveling ministries. And I've often said to a man who you've probably seen on TV named Father Edward Beck, he looks

like Anderson Cooper, like oddly like Anderson Cooper. And they have both been on CNN, they were there with me and he was there after I got fired. And I often said to him, you know, Edward, not just because I love you and you're my friend, man, if you were a pastor in a church, I would go twice a week. I would be there midweek and I'd see you again Sunday

because you bring it alive for me. You animate it for me. You help me with it as a living instruction. But that's in short supply, brother, especially not just in the church, but in public service. I, well, I disagree with you that it's in short supply in the church because I, I'm going to seminary with some incredible young, again, millennial Gen Z pastors in training who are doing, who are talking about the same things I'm talking about, but they don't

have the platform right now. But like, you know, I- But you're in the protested church. Yes, Presbyterian. Right, I'm talking about- My granddad was Baptist, I'm Presbyterian. I'm talking about in the Catholic church. I mean, they barely making priests anymore.

I mean, yeah, and that is true. But I'm, you know, I do think that rather than just following a guy on social media who you like, I do think you need to be following a guy on social media who you like, I do think you need to be in an actual community. Yes. Flesh and blood in a physical place, right? Instagram and TikTok are poor substitutes for community.

But what I could do with this platform is I could help people find those communities or build those communities across the state, across the country. And that's really exciting for me. Well, that's your answer, James. And they yeah, it may be more of an impact than running for a statewide office. No, I see it the other way. I see it the other way. I think that the ministry is the cornerstone,

but the edifice is built through the service. And the more reach you have, the better. The problem is, and my father had this problem too, to bring it back to pop, the inspiration is huge. I would argue it is the most important commodity in politics, is capturing the imagination of people and giving them reason to believe and for them to then motivate the doing. But the problem is inspiration, yes, aspiration, yes, perspiration, getting things done. So then you get some guy like me who runs against Tallerico and when I'm not busy lying about your past I say yeah, but he didn't do it, but he didn't do it but they never did it but they never did it and that always works because it's almost impossible to get anything done because there is a

Legitimate position to just be opposing these days. I stopped Tallerico and his crazy lefty pals from doing what they wanted to do, vote for me. And that's the trick for someone like you is to be inspirational but also productive in a dynamic where people do not want you to get things done because then you are dangerous. Well, and it's part of why I don't wanna go to Washington

because I can still get stuff done here at the state Capitol. I mean, we were talking about how it's so nationalized. There's less of a spotlight here at the state legislature. And so I'm actually, I can still work with my Republican colleagues across the aisle. You know, I passed a bill to allow incarcerated minors to graduate from high school. And I got to go speak at the first graduation in the prison

and see these kids who are now able to turn their lives around. I passed the first ever cap on pre-K class sizes. I mean, we had pre-K classrooms here in Texas with 30, 40 kids in them, because there was no limit to how many kids are in a classroom. And I was able to fix that.

I passed a huge early childhood bill that's gonna raise the quality of early childhood providers across the state and give them more funding. And early childhood is a game changer when it comes to brain development and giving kids that head start they need before kindergarten. I passed the first insulin price cap here in Texas,

a $25 copay cap. I'm a type one diabetic and when I got diagnosed, I was 28 years old. I went to Walgreens to get my first 30 day supply of insulin. It cost me $684 for a 30 day supply of this medicine that I needed to live. And I was able to take that experience and then pass a copay cap so that other Texans don't have to go through that.

So I'm making progress here at the state level. I am worried and I am fearful that that won't be possible at the national level. And so it is part of the hesitance of running for something like US Senate. I desperately, I want to stop Ken Paxton from being my senator. I was part of the bipartisan coalition that impeached Ken Paxton for his corruption. So the idea of him being our US senators is deeply worrying to me. But that said, I'm not sure that DC is a place where I can make the kind of progress I've made here. That's a tough call.

I mean, look, it is and it isn't. It's only a tough call because of the vanity of it. And that is what people do, is that more, the eternal quest for more, as we talk about in our theology, the eternal quest for more. And it's never enough if it's about the agglomeration of power. And it is hard to argue, unless you get deep, deep, deep into the faith of reform, that the US Senate is a place to get something done because right now it's no longer the most deliberative body in the world. It used to be.

I grew up with those guys. I grew up with Moynihan and Aldo Matto and these guys who are like much deeper cats than what we see right now. Now it's just an extension of the house being in the Senate. So I mean, I guess if you were trying to make it back into what it was, then there is an ambition there, but otherwise you'll only be what you put out

in your TikTok. That's all you'll be because you'll never get anything done. Right. And I value the work I do connecting with people outside of the Capitol. Like I think that's necessary to move public opinion, to inspire people, to organize people, to change the system. It think that's necessary to move public opinion, to inspire people, to organize people, to change the system. It is going to come from outside. It's not going to

come from inside, in my theory of change. But to just do that and not actually be making progress within the building, that doesn't nourish me and doesn't sustain me. I have to be able to do both. And I am very worried about whether that's possible in a place like Washington. When do you have to make a decision about what you do next? We got the special session here in Austin. It's gonna last until the end of August

unless another one is called. We haven't even seen these new maps. So we're kind of, you know, we're right in the middle of this redistricting fight. And I was hired to do a job by my constituents, 200,000 people in central Texas. And I've got to do that job before I start applying to other jobs, right?

Now, you are right, James. So that's where my focus is right now. But again, I don't, But again, it's funny, I really don't talk about my father that often. But, not be careful, but be aware. Yes, they hired you to do a job. But what they really hired you to be was their agent,

was their advocate. My father didn't run for president for two reasons. And neither of them was because we're in the mob, okay, which is what everybody assumed. The first one was very worthy. The second one was not. The very worthy reason was that my father did not believe he was good enough to be president, and a relative

assessment was irrelevant to him. If you were to say to him, you don't think you can beat this chump, Tallarico, he would say, that is Tallarico's question. My question is, am I good enough? And my answer is no, I don't think so. The second reason was connected to the first, and I'm not good enough because I was hired to balance the budget and I can't get the budget done. So how can I run on fiscal responsibility when my own budget is held up in the state by the legislature so they won't let me run because I can't get this done? Now, I found that even as an 18 year old, lacking because well, of course,

they weren't gonna pass the budget if it meant you were gonna run. The Republicans didn't want you to run because you had a shot. So they were trying to help their party by keeping you where you were. And nobody cares whether or not you pass that budget or you get done with this redistricting calendar. It's all about whether or not you are in a position to advocate for their interests. So don't think that just because this job's not done yet, you can't do a different job because there is a transferability to the need. They need what they believe in about you in the largest way possible

because it's you that they're betting on, not the position. And so don't pull a Mario where you don't run, don't run if you don't wanna run, but don't run because you think, well, I haven't finished this yet. They know you're not gonna finish it. They know you probably can't even finish it, that there's no currency in finishing it.

There's just currency in blaming people for being unfinished. That's why we love debt ceiling brinksmanship. We love it on the federal level. Whose fault is it gonna be? Who's gonna screw it up? That's where we are and it needs to change, but ain't gonna change today.

And the higher you are up the food chain, the better a position you're in to make a real change. Yeah, thank you for sharing that because that's very helpful. It is a paradox in our politics that, you know, if we were in the 1980s in New York City, like you were, the idea that Donald Trump would be president and not Mario Cuomo. I mean, to me, it's like to have a man with such character and integrity,

not think that he's good enough. And then you have a man who who character and integrity not think that he's good enough, and then you have a man who lacks a lot of those things, feel like, of course, that he could do it. That is kind of the tension in democracy. The people who have the ambition and the, as I would say, maybe arrogance, to think you can make decisions for, you know, 200,000 Central Texans or, you know, 400 million

Americans, you know, that attracts a certain kind of person. And it discourages certain kinds of people like your dad or maybe like me. And that's I don't know what we do about that, but it hadn't really occurred to me until you shared that. You got to change people's perception of what they're hiring. So Trump is a better fit. Look, Mario Cuomo was a tough guy who's from South Jamaica, Queens.

He'd been, you know, grown up as an underclass. He was very aware of it. He was a legitimate anti-elitist. Other than when I left the law to go into the media, when I went to an Ivy League school, I've never seen my father more depressed. When he was like, you want to go to those people? You know, he was a real one.

It wasn't some artifice like it is today. He wasn't anti-success. He just was anti those people in their closed club. But if you're hiring for someone to go into a dirty business and punish the people who are in it Trump is the right guy over Talarico or Cuomo because you and guys like my dad are not knee breakers. You are not going to do somebody dirty because it's how you get it done. You would be for... that's why they called him Hamlet on the Hudson.

He could not easily convince himself to do what was expedient when he knew it was wrong. Trump is unburdened by any larger principle other than the pragmatism of the moment. If it's good for him, the answer is yes. That's why someone can come and punch his kid in the face and then next week make a deal with him and he'll be okay with it. He's transactional. That's what matters. Life is easier that way. And there is an argument to be made that in the current system, Trump is American politics. He is exactly what our politics is right now.

You change what people want and he becomes an impossibility in terms of being elected. And you'll see his party, when he's done, they're going to run right back to character counts, James. They're running right back to it. And they're going to get all churched up again. And they're going to say, Oh, no, no, no, this is who we've always been. They just can't be it right now because of Trump. But they're going to be right back on, you know, that they are the party of God. They are the Christians. They're not these godless lefties who are embracing these crazy Muslims and everybody else. We're the real ones. You'll see as soon as he's gone, they're going right back to that. So I would love to keep checking in. I love that you are resonating the way you are and for the reasons that you are. You are a breath of fresh air, yes, yes,

because we are in a really fetid, stale period. And it is good to see somebody getting notice for not being notorious. Well, thank you for saying that. And thank you again for taking a chance on me because you had me on your TV show long before I got all this other attention. And so I just want to thank you for that.

I told you, you know you wish that guy was representing you in state or federal government. Why? Smart AF and driven by the right kinds of ambitions. Now, can he make it in this toxic soup that we call the two-party system? I hope so. I hope so. I don't give a damn that he's a Democrat. I like him despite the fact that he's a Democrat, because he's not in step with his own party. But I think that the measured nature, the reasonableness, the reliance on real wisdom and real virtue is so refreshing. And I got past the idea that it's not realistic. I mean, he's too much of an ideologue.

I don't buy it. I think it's everything else that's going on in our system that's artificial. I actually think that's the authentic nature of leadership. What do you think? I'm Chris Cuomo, thank you for subscribing and following me, checking me out on News Nation, 8P and 11P every weekday night.

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