The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – A Billion Years: My Escape From a Life in the Highest Ranks of Scientology by Mike Rinder

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

A Billion Years: My Escape From a Life in the Highest Ranks of Scientology by Mike Rinder One of the highest-ranking defectors from Scientology exposes the secret inner workings of the powerful organization in this remarkable memoir. Mike Rinder’s parents began taking him to their local Scientology center when he was five years old. After high school, he signed a billion-year contract and was admitted into Scientology’s elite inner circle, the Sea Organization. Brought to founder L. Ron Hubbard’s yacht and promised training in Hubbard’s most advanced techniques, Mike was instead put to work swabbing the decks. Still, Rinder bought into the doctrine that his personal comfort was secondary to the higher purpose of Hubbard’s world-saving mission, swiftly rising through the ranks. In the 1980s, Rinder became Scientology’s international spokesperson and the head of its powerful Office of Special Affairs. He helped negotiate Scientology’s pivotal tax exemption from the IRS and engaged with the organization’s prominent celebrity members, including Tom Cruise, Lisa Marie Presley, and John Travolta. Yet Rinder couldn’t shake a nagging feeling that something was amiss—Hubbard’s promises remained unfulfilled at his death, and his successor, David Miscavige, was a ruthless and vindictive man who did not hesitate to confine many top Scientologists, Mike among them, to a makeshift prison known as the Hole. In 2007, at the age of fifty-two, Rinder finally escaped Scientology. Overnight, he became one of the organization’s biggest public enemies. He was followed, hacked, spied on, and tracked. But he refused to be intimidated and today helps people break free of Scientology. In A Billion Years, the dark, dystopian truth about Scientology is revealed as never before. Rinder offers insights into the religion that only someone of his former high rank could provide and tells a harrowing but fulfilling story of personal resilience.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. And now, ladies and gentlemen, a man who wears his shirts backwards so he can have better hindsight. I'm your host, Chris Voss.

Welcome to the show. I just made that up while I was thinking through the intro. Anyway, guys, and it's probably not funny either, so there's that. Anyway, guys, you know the drill. We've got an amazing author on the show. Mike Rinder is on the show. He is an escaped Scientologist. Is escaped Scientologist the proper term? But he has escaped, and we have him. author on the show mike renders on the show he is an escaped uh scientologist is escaped

scientologist the proper term um but he has escaped and we have him we've trapped him on the show for 30 minutes uh so his escape is short-lived no we're not putting him back into the uh the cult but anyway uh he was very popular we did the pre-announcement on the show and uh well you've had billionaires on the show actors actresses musicians i mean dave navarro was on the show he wasn't this popular um and uh so it's gonna be exciting to talk to him we're talking about his new hottest book that's just fresh off the presses and uh some of the different things he's gone through some of the films and different exposés that he's done uh so we'll get into that In the meantime, make sure you give the gift of the

Chris Foss Show. It's a family that loves you but doesn't judge you, and it's not a cult. You can leave at any time if you want, but we just might look down on you. We'll give you a glare from a distance, but you can leave at any time you want. Anyway, guys, family that loves you but doesn't judge you, youtube.com, 4ChessChrisFoss, goodreads.com for chest chris foss the big linkedin groups all the different places we have across the internet check them out as well today mike rinders on the show he is the author of the newest book that came out september 27 2022 a billion years my escape from a life in the highest ranks of scientology he's gonna be talking about that fun experience uh he is a former senior Scientology executive who is now a prominent whistleblower against the abuses of the organization.

Born in Australia and raised in Scientology family, he joined the organization's elite inner core, the Sea Org, at age 18, signing a billion-year contract and rose to the ranks, working directly with both L. Ron Hubbard and his successor, David Miscavige. From 1982 to 2007, he was a member of the board of directors of the Church of Scientology International, was the international spokesman for Scientology, and also headed the Office of Special Affairs, overseeing the corporate, legal, public relations, and spying dirty tricks, dirty tricks you say, of Scientology.

He escaped in 2007, leaving behind all of his family, siblings, wife, children, and disconnected from them. I know some married guys that want to do that. Welcome to the show, Mike. How are you? I'm great, Chris. How are you? Good, good.

As you can tell, we do info entertainment on the show, so we make it fun. Give us a.com or where we want people to find you on the interwebs, please. Well, the main place is MikeRinder'sBlog.org. I do a daily blog about Scientology and sort of things related to that. That's the main place where people usually find me. Of course, I'm on twitter and instagram and facebook but those things have become increasingly difficult to navigate and like i but whatever that's where i am i but go to my go to my my blog that's the place to find me and i think you have a

newsletter that you put out don't you or just well, no, it's just the blog. I mean, it's a daily blog, so there's always something new on there. And some of it is pretty fluffy, not too much substance. did a posting on there the other day about the using and quoting the words of L. Ron Hubbard about medical doctors and how Scientologists view the medical profession. And, you know, there's been other ones about how Hubbard direct Scientologists to destroy their enemies and his words. So there's a large variety of stuff. of it's a bit funny like there's a cut i i publish a cartoon by this cartoonist that does satire about scientology every friday he calls himself regraded being and it is pretty in pretty insightful and incisive so there's all sorts of stuff on my blog.

There you go. So what motivated you to write this book? It seems kind of obvious, but it's better if we hear it from you. Well, what motivated me primarily, Chris, was people asking me to. I'm fairly well known in the world of Scientology, both from when I was in Scientology and then subsequently when I left. I was in a big series of articles done by the St. Pete Times at the time about Scientology and then in Lawrence Wright's Going Clear on HBO

done by Alex Gibney. And then I did three seasons of Scientology in the Aftermath with Leah Remini so people sort of know who I am and a bit about my story and they're like well you need to write a book because we only hear bits and pieces we get you know you do a one-hour interview or you're on the show or whatever and we sort of see glimpses but we need the whole story and frankly it was a bit of a daunting task to me to begin with it was sort of overwhelming to think that i have to to go through all of these experiences because you, for whatever reason, I had, I was sort of like, you know, someone described me as the Forrest Gump of Scientology. I was kind of everywhere, involved in all sorts of things, and I knew that I had to get it right,

because otherwise Scientology would just come out and say, oh, well, he couldn't even get this fact right, and so the whole thing is just a bunch of lies, which they will say anyway. But what finally motivated me to do it was my wife nagging me, which is a big motivator. Nagging is probably not the right word word she won't like that if she hears it but you know insisting insisting you need to write the book you need to write the book and then covid i was sitting in the house i couldn't go anywhere didn't have anything to do

and i'm like okay i'll sit down and i'll do it. So that's what made it happen now. Yeah, we had a lot of great authors on that wrote a book during COVID. I did too. It was kind of like a great book writing. Well, you know, we're locked in the house, you know, and you're looking at four walls. Exactly. That was sort of what ultimately happened.

So give us a 30,000 overview of the book, and then we'll get into some of the details. Well, the book is really the story of my life. And my life was consumed by Scientology from the age of about five or six until, well, today. It still is consumed by Scientology to a large extent. I joined the, as you mentioned in the beginning, I joined the C organization, the there rose through the ranks of Scientology to the very topmost levels. And it became increasingly clear to me that there were things that were very wrong in Scientology, and I eventually escaped in 2007 when I was 52 years old, and I walked out the door of one of the Scientology buildings in London, England. time dealing with the bbc and i literally disappeared into the crowd on the tube i had

no money i didn't have anywhere to go i had no family i had no resume i had nothing and uh that's what the book is about and hi voksters voss here with a little station break hope you're enjoying the show so far we'll resume here in a second uh I'd like to invite you to come to my coaching speaking and training courses website you can also see our new podcast over there at chrisvossleadershipinstitute.com over there you can find all the different stuff that we do for speaking engagements if you'd like to hire me uh training courses that we offer, and coaching for leadership, management, entrepreneurism, podcasting, corporate stuff. With over 35 years of experience in business and running companies as a CEO, I think I can offer

a wonderful breadth of information and knowledge to you or anyone that you want to invite me to for your company. Thanks for tuning in. We certainly appreciate you listening to the show and be sure to check out chrisfossleadershipinstitute.com. Now back to the show. When I first wrote it, Chris, honestly, it was sort of like a legal brief. It was fact, fact, fact, this happened, that happened, this happened, that happened. A lot of which is sort of interesting to people because I interacted with, like, from governments and litigants to all the Scientology celebrities to just, I mean, some of the most bizarre things that happened in my life. But what I was missing, and this is sort of a symptom of being a Scientologist, is the emotion. In Scientology, emotion is a sort of a stamped out.

It's like it's not good it doesn't help anything it's not you know not moving the ball forward or something and so i i got this editor who was wonderful and i call her now my editor slash therapist because what she did was she would read a chapter and then say, okay, now tell me what was going through your mind at this point. What were you thinking? What was motivating you? What was the conflicts? And I'm like, oh, well, you know, I'm not so sure I can even come up with that stuff. Well, you need to. And so she really pushed and

prodded me to dig into my sort of stuck in an organization like Scientology, which does tremendous harm to people and abuses people. And yet I was a part of that. And how did I get there? And why did I stay for as long as I did? And what motivated me to finally leave? And then what motivates me to speak out about it now? So you asked for a 30,000 foot. I probably dropped to five.

There you go. Well, you know, hey, as long as we're, you know, give us that overview. We want people to go buy the book, order that baby up. So here's the interesting thing. I grew up much like you did in the Mormon cult, and the Mormon cult teaches the same thing. I don't think they teach it quite as much, but it used to be really bad in my day and age where it was like you alienate whoever leaves the cult. You're your family band. You lose everything.

And I know what it's like at 16 to walk from it. I'd walk from it years earlier. I was just slumming it for most of my teenage years. But finally, I went to my parents at 16. I went, hey, and I had a whole spin. I had a whole sales pitch. And I said, you know, the religious church that you guys belong to is like a magazine and when i was a boy scout i used to subscribe to uh boys life uh but i don't anymore because i'm not a boy scout

anymore and i've you know grown past that and and so your religion is like a really cool magazine and it's really cool for you people but i don't want to subscribe anymore and that was my that was my spin pitch and pretty good one frankly uh i i was an idiot at 16 but somehow i came up with that and uh so i was declared uh by them and the church uh an insane uh person who had mental problems so they sent me to uh a psychiatrist who was mormon and was paid for by the mormon church to re-indoctrinate me. So I know a little bit of what this is like, but you know, you're, you grow up, people don't realize that when you grow up, then this is all, you know, you know, you grew up in this way. I

grew up in this way. It's really hard to see the other side, the outside world to escape from this. It really is, isn't it? It's, it's it's extremely difficult and you know chris this book is written sort of addressed to my two children that i left behind that i brought into the c organization and scientology they were literally born into it um and you know now spend their lives doing nasty videos saying what a horrible person I am, et cetera, et cetera. And that came about from some wonderful advice I got from Larry Wright, who became, you know, someone I consider a friend after we worked on his book and then the the uh hbo doc um he said to me you know if you're going to write a book what you should do is write what's important to you and he said what do you think the book that i'm most proud of is and i said i don't know looming tower going clear like rattled off like all of his monster best-selling highly regarded by nope

nope nope not it's it's a book i published of letters to my parents i said oh really he said yes that's the most meaningful book that i have written and he said i think that that's what you need to do and knowing your story i think you need to tell the story of your life to your children. And so there is an introductory letter to my children at the beginning of the book. And I'm getting back to the point that you just made. And I say to them in there, look, you probably think I'm the devil. I'm sure you do. And, you know, I'm sorry for putting you in the circumstances that you're in where you know nothing else.

But let me try and give you an analogy that might sort of make sense to you without involving scientology because the minute you say the word scientology or l1 hubbard or whatever if it's if it's in any way negative it gets rejected so i said okay think about if you were raised in a house and inside that house uh there were people who all believed that the wall that surrounded the house was keeping out the evil. And that outside of that wall was this terrible, terrible landscape of horrors and disasters and catastrophes and death and destruction but inside the house was the perfect world that and this is all you ever knew that you were being raised in a house that was somehow so much better than everything else in the outside world it would be very unlikely that you would try and go and jump over that wall. But let me tell you, if you do jump over the wall, on the other side of the wall, it's a wonderful green pastures, happy people, a lovely existence. It's not all bad, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I know what it takes to get up the courage to wall is shout back over the wall sky writing dropping

leaflets over into your house everything that I could possibly do throwing rocks with notes attached to them to try and get through to you that if you would just take that one step, it would be possible for you to start thinking for yourself. And that is probably the best way I have of describing and trying to explain to people the mindset that if you have been inculcated with the belief that stepping outside of our world, whether it's the Mormons, the Scientologists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Temple of God, whatever, anything, you are going to die an eternal death of pain and horrible things are going to happen to you. It's really hard to get someone who has been, that's their only view of the world, to see anything differently. Yeah, that's the only thing they know. I think Starbucks has the same mantra.

No, I'm just kidding, Starbucks. We're just doing jokes on the show. Don't drink other people's coffee or else. You know, I grew up with the same thing. Everything was evil. Everything was damnation. The world was evil. People were evil.

There's also one thing I kind of struck on when I was younger. Actually, I just struck on this a few years ago. There's elitism to it, too. There's kind of a psychological elitism. I'm morally better than you because i'm in the club and you're not absolutely and that i mean that is a thing that all cults have in common you know scientology views the world outside of scientologyg which is a very derogatory term for anybody who is not a scientologist and i'm a wog the yeah you are i gotta change my tinder profile well i gotta get out of this

sun that's coming through my window now um the the wog world is is a horrible place. And the Wog World consists of two types of people. One, those who are simply ignorant. And they don't know yet about Scientology. So they're the great unwashed, ignorant people. And then the evil ones. The ones who do know about Scientology and are seeking to stop it and anybody that says anything that scientology doesn't like is automatically categorized as

an evil person that is trying to stop scientology and thus is trying to destroy all of mankind, literally. And along with this elitism is an us versus them-ism. You have to have this big enemy that we are battling against. And Scientology, oh my God, L. Ron Hubbard and his theories of the grand conspiracy against Scientology, waged by the psychiatrists and the drug companies and the governments and the bankers and the media. I mean, it goes on and on and on and on and on. But it's this huge war of righteousness. It's a righteous war to save every man, and child on earth and the only way that they can be saved is to defeat these horrible people who are seeking to destroy scientology i'm getting out of the sun

again oh god this i think scientology is after you with the sun they've yeah they've they've harvested the sun and are using it as a tool. I think L. Ron Hubbard's taking over the sun now or something. Yeah, exactly. So you're doing this thing where you're trying to save people. I know what that feeling's like. Do you feel, what's the motivation behind, you know, you've gone through the cathartic thing of leaving the church. I want to round back to that.

But since you brought this up, what's the main motivation for you? Is it saving all the people in the church? Is it saving your children and family? What really drives you on a day-to-day basis to, you know, do your blog, talk about these things, and get the exposure out. Is it part of it to repair what you maybe did or feel you did as damage or whatever word you want to use for it over the many years that you promoted the church, lied for the church and stuff? Is it part of that whole reparation thing? What is it for you specifically?

Well, you touched on all of the aspects uh except for one yes it is in some ways uh you know reparation or scientologists would call it amends that's the sort of term like making up for things that i had done in the past that now I see were, you know, misguided is a very kind way of putting it. Secondly, I want to ultimately reach my children. Look, I don't care if my children want to be Scientologists. Anybody can be a Scientologist if they want to. Like, you know, I'm not insistent that they not be. All I am trying to accomplish is that they can actually make that decision with the information that makes it an informed decision rather than information that makes it a preordained decision. I also want to stop the abuses that I know are ongoing in Scientology. Other people are being harmed, and that shouldn't be happening, and I want to stop that. And I think that there is one other sort of aspect to this, Chris, which is, you know, I lived a life for a long time where I had this enormous

purpose of saving the planet and all these people that I worked with who were sort of joined in this grand scheme of things and having a very large purpose like that tends to keep you focused on the mountain and not on the pebbles on the road and i found that when i first escaped that i that was lacking in my life i just felt sort um, I don't know what the right word is, perhaps small or insignificant, or there wasn't anything that was really important. And now having sort of embarked on this career as a whistleblower, um, and the people who have come forward and said you know thank you so much for helping

you really made it possible for me to see things that i hadn't seen before and the people that i have met and this sort of community of not just former scientologists but former members of other groups and organizations and people who have been in abusive relationships, et cetera, et cetera, has brought back this sort of larger purpose to life. And to me, that is a very valuable thing to have. I love the time that I spend with my family, with my new son, with my new wife, with the time that i spend with my family with my new son with my new wife with the friends that i have but having a a sort of a grander purpose or scheme to things is is important to me at least yeah there's a point we reach in our life where we give back and

and uh and i think it's important. You know, one of the things the Mormon church has had the biggest problem with is the Internet. The Internet and truth and facts being found on the Internet. And it's been the most damaging thing for them. In fact, they're losing members over it. How has that worked for, you know, I know there's a lot of folks like yourself who've left the church, who are doing the whistleblower thing. I've seen a bunch of the movies.

We'll get to the whole thing. I don't have a question about that in a second. But how is that working out? Is it being effective? It's happening in the Mormon church where people are leaving in droves. How is that working out with you guys are doing? Are you getting through to people? Is it helping?

Absolutely. I mean, I say often, Chris, that the information is the poison that kills cults. And information nowadays is so readily available. I mean, certainly you have to be a little discerning about what information you get off the Internet because there's a lot of false information there, too. Or Twitter. Yeah. the internet because there's a lot of false information there too or twitter excuse me yeah but there is a a a rapid absolute decline of scientology coincident with you know, the sort of birth of free speech on the internet in the 90s. And it really is difficult now.

Scientology used to be able to convince people to come on in and check it out and see what we have. And they have all these pitches that they give that sound pretty benign and are pretty benign and, you know, attract new people. And they do their personality tests and their e-meter tests and all that sort of stuff. These days, people don't even buy a toothbrush without Googling what's a good toothbrush yeah so and the minute you google scientology there is a uh an avalanche of information from people who are now presenting the other side of the picture of scientology from mostly from their own experiences. So that has cut down the number of people who gullibly walk into a Scientology organization and get sucked in down the vortex.

And that has been a very, very significant factor. And it's sort of a snowball chris because to begin with there were some people who were on the internet and there was you know like one major media that did any sort of exposes on scientology everybody else was sort of scared and now it's pretty much they're a toothless paper tiger when it comes to threatening the media and so there is a lot more stories there is a lot more coverage and we see now that the the world of scientology is imploding yeah well that's awesome you know i always anytime i order a cold i write off amazon and make sure and get the five-star reviews that That's how you pick them now.

But no, I actually was exposed to Scientology when I was probably around 20, and I responded to one of those personality test ads. Right. And I had left the church, and so I was wandering and checking out everything. You're still kind of believing in – I'm an atheist now, but you're still kind of believing that there's a whatever sort of boogeyman under the bed, and he's, you know, the supreme sadomasochist puppet master. That's my opinion. But, you know, he's fucking with you. He's like, hey, let's fuck with Chris Voss today because we have nothing better

to do in the universe. But that's jokes aside. You know, so I went in. I did the personality test, and they hustle you to buy the book Dianetics. And so I think it was five bucks back then. And they tried to get me to come back and do the whole clear thing. And I'm like, I'll go read your book and stuff. And then I read the book, and I just was kind of like, wow, this is better than the Book of Mormon that was plagiarized from the Bible, according to me.

And if you don't believe me, who was it? I can't remember the guy who said that. It was Mark Twain who said that. So I went through that whole thing, and so I'm glad you're cutting that off. Are people leaving the church, too? Are you getting through to any of them? what was the point that made breaking point for you you left the church at 53 did it take years where you started to have like a um you know a breakdown where you're like stuff isn't adding up i'm sick of this whatever or was it one big thing no no no no it was a long period of slowly waking up and like you know they

say that the that expression about the straw that breaks the camel's back well there is a lot of of weight that loads onto the camel before the straw finally drops and that was what was happening to me and that's what I describe in the book. You know, this happened, but that wasn't enough to get me to walk out the door. This happened, but that wasn't enough. This happened, but that wasn't enough. This happened. And then the final thing was I had been sent to London by David Miscavige

to stop a BBC Panorama show being done by uh john sweeney a reporter who was a very courageous very almost nutty courageous guy um who has become a dear But I failed to stop the show. And though John Sweeney was intent upon putting in his program that David Miscavige physically assaulted people, which he did constantly, and had asked me specifically whether Miscavige had physically assaulted me and I had denied it, I had this sort of, oh, my God, what am I doing? I'm here protecting this guy who's beaten the shit out of me. That's not why I came into the Sea Organization. That's not why I want to be a scientologist that's like but still that wasn't even enough um when the show aired uh there was no mention of david miscavige i had made enough

threats that the bbc decided they weren't going to put that in and i'm thinking okay i pulled this off this is great and miscavige says to me yeah well if i'd been there dealing with this the show wouldn't have aired at all you fuck up wow and of course he could have been there dealing with it if he wanted to he you know he sent me instead because i was the cannon fodder who could be blamed if everything didn't go according to plan um but even that wasn't exactly enough to get me to walk out the door or run out the door um he then sent a a message to someone in london with a cc to me saying that i'm never coming back to the united states and then i'm going to be sent to Western Australia with 10 pounds,

and that if I can't make a living out of that, I can always sell my body on the streets. Wow. I quote this letter in the book. And at that point, I went, okay, you know, the thing that was most holding me uh from leaving was i didn't want to abandon my wife and children yeah but now he's telling me you're never coming back here to see him anyway so what the fuck i got nothing left there is it was that moment where the horrors on the other side of the wall actually couldn't be worse than the horrors on the inside of the wall so i took that leap and that was the final straw it was certainly wasn't the one thing there was many many many things and i described them in some detail in the book of

all of these experiences and and shit that happened but that was the ultimate last straw and that was when i left when the horrors of the outside or the inside become worse than the horrors of leaving you know that's how a lot of these cults work. You know, we saw this. I see this in the Mormon church. It has a huge LGBTQ suicide rate. Right. Because, you know, they're very anti-LGBTQ. And when these young boys, men, girls leave, they're alienated from their family. And so you lose your family.

And usually it's a very young age when they're coming out and, you know, they're still building their identity just as a self, as a human being. And they'll have, you know, incredible suicide rates because, you know, you don't have anything. And that's what you left with at 53. You literally walked out the doors with nothing, which is, you know, it speaks to the power of where you were at at that point with that organization that it was better to leave with nothing and go through a cathartic crisis in your life than, than to stay. And even losing your family. Did you try and take your wife and kids with you to try and convince them to

leave as well? I imagine. Well, okay. Here, here is how it works in Scientology. Scientology is a snitch culture. And you,

if, if anybody says anything, you're immediately reported, even your spouse, your children. If you say anything. Of course, I was in a difficult position. I was in London, and they were in Los Angeles. So I couldn't fly back to Los Angeles and go try and grab them. So I figured, okay, I will get away and then I will reach out to them and try and persuade them to come and at least talk to me. And, um, you know, it's a bit of a circuitous story, but ultimately I wrote a letter and i said hi you know i'd like you to my ex-wife

and to my children said i i'm here with actually at the time i was living with david miscavige's brother and his wife who were my oldest friends in from the sea organization and they had left previously oh really and i so i was at their house and his wife was very close friends with my wife we we were all exceedingly close and she said to me you've got to get kathy which was the name of my wife and and taryn and benjamin my children to come here so that we can talk to them. And I said, Biddy, this just isn't going to happen.

They're never going to come. If I write to them, she said, I think that it will, I think you got to write, you got to write. So I wrote, I got a handwritten letter back from my wife.

Um, in, you know, like a week or two. And the opening line was dear mike i received your letter fuck you and wow i will inform the children divorce papers are in route and that was basically the extent of it i i it in writing was pretty devastating. And, you know, that's why this book is, and, you know, I say at the end of the book listen if if you guys ever show up at my door like i showed up at the door of of runny and

bitty or my other friend tom devocked um we welcome you with open arms you are always always welcome come knock on the door we will find somewhere for you to live where you can live with us to begin with. We'll find somewhere. We'll get you a job. We'll do whatever we need to do. There is unconditional love available for you here. And this is something that cults don't believe in. They do not believe in unconditional love because unless you're

in good standing with the cult that love is terminated yeah so it is not unconditional it is absolutely conditional love you are you are loved conditional upon you staying in step with the cult. And that is something that I have come to learn is incredibly valuable in life, unconditional love. And that's what I hope someday my children and even ex-wife and or brother and sister or whoever it is comes to take advantage of there you go well it's good to put the the doorstep out there and with the welcome and uh you know people people go through life and they go through cathartic

moments to make them question their their beliefs and realities. I've been through a couple of mine and, uh, you know, then they, they wake up sometimes or they start, you know, there there's cracks that develop. So it's good that they're there. Uh, do you talk in the book, you know, to me, L Ron Hubbard is one of the most curious, uh, curiosities of, of anything. You know, I've read the stories of how he used to just pump out books, like a penny per word, I think it was, or something along those lines. And he used to do this a lot until he figured out, and I think he even states that he figured out that a better way to do it is make money and build a religion. In fact, me and my, when we built our empire of companies, we used to joke about how we should make one of the companies a religion so we could get rid of it. And do you write in the book about what he was like? How much exposure did you have to him over the years?

Well, quite a lot. And I write about him. And, you know, people often ask me, so what do you think about L. Ron Hubbard? And I think that L. Ron Hubbard was a storyteller, which is a very kind way of saying liar in some respects, because he told a lot of stories about himself and stories like he was a storyteller that made a living out of, as you say, writing pulp science fiction. And he was moderately successful, never a huge, huge star, but he kind of made a living and you know there was a dispute about whether he made the statement you know why write for a penny a word when you can

you know create a religion and that's how you make real money uh the truth of the matter is it doesn't matter whether he said it or not he did it and and ultimately ended up with a 400 million dollar estate so he he did as that that quote says and that's where it becomes dangerous and where the abuses come from because you can tell science fiction stories and sell them in in all you want and everybody understands the science fiction when you start selling your science fiction stories and claiming that this is thoroughly researched science not science fiction thoroughly researched science then you start having a problem. And that is what Hubbard did.

He tells everybody from the beginning, even Dianetics, that I research, I've discovered these great discoveries that I spent years and years researching and testing and proving. And these things absolutely work 100% of the time if you do exactly like I say. And Dianetics offers to cure all disease, all psychosomatic disease, all mental problems, misemotions upset stress everything and turn you into a perfect human being in fact hubbard called it a homo novus new man and that as a clear you will have a perfect memory you'll never get a cold you'll be able to see perfectly you can throw away your walking stick if you're lame throw away your glasses if you're blind all of these and they are

in dianetics chris and tell of a panacea they those things are promised and i should have finished reading the book yeah you should have this is an exact science that's proven and blah blah blah the problem was that those things couldn't be produced like it's great to go out there and say oh chris if you buy my bottle of elixir i will cure you of your, you know, hair loss. And you may get a bunch of people to buy it, but when their hair keeps falling out, you got a problem. So Hubbard solved that problem of there is nothing that you can't, you don't actually achieve what he claimed in Dianetics by saying, oh, I've done some more research.

I further investigated and developed. And ultimately, that's what Scientology is. Scientology is now, oh, well, you know, Dianetics addressed the mind, but actually you're a mind and a body and a spirit, and that's what Scientology addresses, the spirit, because the spirit is senior to the mind. So if you address the spirit and then when Scientology, the first stuff of Scientology didn't really accomplish what he claimed it now would, he moved on.

Oh, I've made another discovery. That process carried on all the way until the day he died. He was coming up with new things to invent or inventing new things with new stories about how this great research has been done that now will accomplish what I said you would accomplish back in 1950. And it's still not accomplishable, but there is still the promise in Scientology that there is more stuff that Hubbard developed and more research that he did that has not yet been released. Yeah, that's right.

They dropped the releases, don't they? It's coming. It will be here. So don't they it's coming it will be here so don't lose faith don't lose faith you know it's like the the the jehovah's witnesses and their armageddon and the end of the earth and you know it's going to be in 1974 and then when it doesn't come to well that was just a test to get prepared okay it's going to be in 1993 oh and that happened oh no no no and the problem chris is that when you have groups like this when the failures become apparent that does not motivate people to leave that motivates people to double down. They have sunk costs.

They have invested their life. They have invested and told their friends that this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And if they were to turn around and say, actually, it's all bullshit, that's a big pill to swallow for a lot of people. So you often see like the end of the world is going to be tomorrow. And then the day after that, those guys are like doubling down on the end of the earth is going to be now 10 years. Hence, we just had a practice run. God was testing us to see how we're doing. And this is that kind of insane mindset that you get into as a part of a cult. So Hubbard exploited people and their insecurities and their hopes. And Scientology controls people through hope.

Like we will be accomplishing this magnificent thing of saving the world and saving every man, woman, and child on it. You just have to keep the faith. You just have to keep going and give us more money, give us more money, keep the money,

give us more money and keep going and give us more money and as long as you keep giving us money we will eventually attain this this nirvana-like state where everything is wonderful and you know this is this is really unfortunate you bring up a great point the sunk cost factor that you know people people have invested so much of their lives into it you know especially when you've invested 30 40 50 60 years it's hard to go hey i spent a lifetime being wrong it's hard to it's hard to look at that demon in the mirror exactly and that keeps a lot of people in um these days it keeps a lot of people in. These days, it keeps a lot of people also, at least in the Scientology world,

distanced but not claiming that they're out because they have friends and family that they don't want to lose, but they're no longer really convinced. They're not really participating and there is a sort of a new term that has been coined to describe those people they they are under the radar they are not letting the organization know that they're done but they're done and they they don't do that for fear of losing their job or losing their families or losing their friends or whatever they'd rather just sort of quietly uh be non-participants and non-believers but not let anybody know so the the book goes through your whole journey

going from your youth growing up up, your exposure to him, Elron Hubbard and Miscavige, and being a spokesman for the thing and the whole journey and then the unraveling. One thing I want to ask you about, I think I saw an interview where you were put in the hole at one point. And I think I don't know which Scientology documentary it was. I think it might have been clear, but it was they really did a lot on the hole and the escape from the hole. Did you have to escape from the hole? And then, why isn't like the FBI raided this? This is like almost human

trafficking. People locked inside of buildings against fire codes and stuff like that. Why hasn't this been raided? Okay, so first of all, the hole was sort of described and shown in going clear. Not in great detail, but in some detail.

And I have an entire chapter devoted to the hole because I was like one of the founding members. I was one of the first prisoners in the hole. And I did not have to escape from the hole because I was this very sort of odd person that i would be in the hole and then muscovich would have some catastrophe that came along and i so though i'm supposedly one of the worst people on earth i would get taken out of the hole to go deal with the catastrophe like i would be i i flew to new york out of the hole with hole with a escort guard to make sure I didn't escape to appear on the Today Show with Katie Couric. And then I went back. I would have been sneaking notes to Katie going, help, free me. But your family and your children are technically hostage at that point.

And that's what I describe in the book this sort of like yes the push and the pull of oh my god this is insane but what am i doing and why am i going back but if i don't go back this is what's going to happen and blah blah anyway um but i you i forgot the second half of your question uh why hasn't this been rated by the FBI or something? I mean, just the barcodes alone. That's the question. That's a question you've got to ask the FBI, because it's not from lack of trying to provide them with the information. And, you know, I also described that in some detail in the book.

You know, one thing that was a very a very significant event in the history of the united states government and cults or religious organizations as they look or new religious movements as they like to be called was waco and waco had a huge impact on the government and their willingness to entangle themselves in cults or religious organizations. And though that's not the entire reason, it certainly is a factor. The difficulties, you know, this country has built up a lot of jurisprudence over a long period of time with respect to the First Amendment. And unfortunately, the legal system is weighted very heavily in favor of those who have money. The scales of justice are not equal though the guys with the big bags of gold the scales of justice tip very heavily in their favor and typically what has happened over the years people have sought to uh sue religious organizations whether it's the Catholic Church or the Mormons or Scientology

or whatever. And typically, those are the little guys, the individual who has been abused and harmed by those organizations. And the organization goes out and hires 20 lawyers from, you know, from the big expensive law firms, and they fight until the death and ultimately often prevail. And that has created a body of law that is very, very favorable to the, quote, First Amendment rights of religions and very, very unfavorable to those same First Amendment rights that the victims have. People tend to forget that victims in these cases also have First Amendment rights. They have the right to choose or not choose. But the way the law has been developed, you sort of get stuck in this, well, if you were a member, then you agreed to whatever their crazy rules and regulations are. And we're not allowed to intrude into making any decisions about whether they're right or wrong.

And it goes all the way to the point of committing felonies. And I know that you're saying well that's you know a fire code violation or whatever the trick of it is is that there are all these loopholes in what what you know consent and all this sort of shit anyway i don't want to get into i talk about this at some length in the book and i talk about it on practically every podcast i do and i've covered it extensively on my blog about the problems with the first amendment and protecting individuals from being abused by religious organizations because the law favors the organizations not the individuals yeah money rules this country.

My last question for you really quick. Tom Cruise, it seems like he's a great poster boy for them. I was reading something in the New Zealand thing that he might be kind of wandering off from the church. I don't know if that's true or not. I've been outside the Hollywood thing. We had lunch one time at this great chicken place. It was right across from the Hollywood Scientology thing they have for all the actors and stuff yeah and we went wandering the the outside of the walls because suddenly i was like i was you know i was doing a

lot of jokes as a comedian i'm like i'm like yelling over the wall i think we're i think that time he was married to that one chick and uh she finally broke up the brunette actress and we were like yelling over the wall going hey hey, well, come on, jump the wall, we'll save you. And I was doing shit like that that I do as a comedian. And we tried to take pictures, I think, at the gate, and I can't remember if they were armed guards that had stuff over their shoulders or not, but they definitely threatened us.

They were not happy that I was trying to take pictures and being an ass outside their wall. Well, they don't send armed there they don't have um people they have mace and they have walkie talkies and they have billy clubs but they don't have guns the guns are inside they you know if something happens they'll come running out and they'll suddenly find a gun but uh yeah you know tom cruise has been a very prominent poster child for scientology but even he these days you'll note he hardly ever mentions it and in fact he insists when he is doing you know press for movies that nobody ask a scientology related question that you have to sign something that says that you will not ask

him about Scientology in order to be granted an interview with the great man so wow it's a it's a very different world and you know people are now far more educated 20 years ago you would ask people what Scientology and they would say oh isn't that what tom cruise is involved in isn't that the tom cruise religion these days you ask people what is scientology and they'll say uh yeah i watched the aftermath or i watched going clear that cult sucks yeah people love it too they love the intrigue of it i think was the thing. I was like, holy shit, people like this. It's like CSI or one of those murder mysteries. They love the intrigue of it.

Like I said, with Mormonism, the FDLCS, is that what it is? FLDS. FLDS. My business partner married someone who had escaped the cult of the FLDS. My business partner married someone who had escaped the cult of the FLDS, and he would house members, teenagers that would usually escape. And some would stay out, some would go back, and they would, you know, they would be going through the thing. And I mean, to me, somebody needs to pass a law that you don't indoctrinate children in religion. But I live in a world of fantasy. So what do I know? But it's been wonderful to have you on, Mike. It sounds like an amazing book.

And it's going to be a great beacon to tell people about cults, teach people about cults and Scientology and what the truth is. And so I'm hoping you'll reach much more people than you've and Scientology and what the truth is. And so I'm hoping you'll reach much more people than you've reached so far and continue the good work. Well, I do too. And I appreciate the time that you've taken, Chris, and the interactive conversation. It's been interesting. No, no, it's great talking to someone that has some experience

that is in any way similar because, you know, we all talk the same language. Yeah. I mean, I still have family in the cult, so I have to deal with it. So I know, I kind of know what that feeling is like. But, you know, it's interesting with the Scientology thing, you know, how they go after people. I've seen, like I watched a couple of your interviews and all the news agencies were Hey, we have to read the part where we don't get sued. So we have to post the reply from the thing. And, uh, and, uh, so yeah, I'm just waiting for my email to come with the C the, the, the DNC, uh, or what is it? C and D, um, from the cult. So, uh, there you

go. Anyway, Mike, thanks for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Give us your.com so people can find you on the interwebs, please. MikeRindersBlog.org. There you go. Follow him wherever fine books are sold. You can pick up the book. Follow him wherever fine books are sold. That makes no sense, whatever. Anyway, order his newest book wherever fine books are sold.

Remember, stay out of those alleyway bookstores. You might bump into Tom Cruise. A Billion Years Escape from a Life in the Highest Ranks of Scientology. This just in. Tom Cruise will not be on the show. He's canceled this thing. September 27th,

2022. Mike Rinder. He's not that great of an actor anyway. Thanks for coming on the show, Mike. Thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com for us as Chris Foss. YouTubes.com forward slash Chris Voss. YouTube.com forward slash Chris Voss. LinkedIn.com forward slash Chris Voss. Until the lawyers shut it down.

Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. And we'll see you guys next time.