The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – A Constructive Conversation with Dr. Ashlee and Dr. Chatters: Privilege, Awareness and Journey Toward Advocacy

Episode Date: September 27, 2020

A Constructive Conversation with Dr. Ashlee and Dr. Chatters: Privilege, Awareness and Journey Toward Advocacy

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi folks this is voss here from the chris voss show.com the chris voss show.com hey we're coming here with another great podcast we certainly appreciate you guys tuning in be sure to give us a like, subscribe to us on YouTube. You can see the YouTube version of this video at youtube.com forward slash Chris Voss. Hit that bell notification button.

You can see all the wonderful stuff that's over there. Also, we just got put and listed on Amazon Music as a podcast. So you can go to the Amazon podcast over there and see the Chris Voss Show, an online podcast on Amazon Music. Also, we're on Goodreads. You can find my profile on goodreads.com where we review a lot of different people. I'm under there under Chris Voss. And we just launched a new book club on there.

We're going to try and get going on the Chris Voss Show. So we're going to have a book club. We're going to give away books and everything else, everything we can do to promote the different authors that are on the Chris Voss Show. So we're going to have a book club. We're going to give away books and everything else, everything we can do to promote the different authors that are on the show. You can also go to Amazon.com forward slash shop forward slash Chris Voss. You can see all the books of all the great authors that have been on the show. You can buy them all and all that good stuff. Today we have returning guests.

They are coming to us both from prior podcasts that we've done. So you want to take a search their names on both of those. We have Dr. Kyle Ashley and Dr. Lawrence Chatters on the show with us. And they're going to do some different things we'll talk about here in a second that I think are going to be pretty interesting, pretty insightful. And we'll expand your mind and hopefully help you deal with some of the issues that we're seeing today, whether it's you or maybe other people you're integrated with. So let me start today. I'll introduce Dr. Chatters since he was here first. Dr. Chatters, go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself. Hey, Chris, thank you so much for having me back. It's an honor to be on this discussion in this podcast today with you and Kyle.

So basically, just to give a little background about myself, I currently serve as the Vice President for Student Affairs and Chief Diversity Officer, recently named, at Midland University in Fremont, Nebraska. As the Vice President for Student Affairs, I oversee a number of aspects that have to do with students outside of the classroom right now. Of course, one of the big things is coronavirus and what that's causing, and so some unique perspectives there.

But also as the chief diversity officer, I get a chance to oversee all of our inclusion equity and equity efforts at Midland University. And that really spams the whole campus in a way. And so really excited to be back today. Just, you know, we've had some great discussions in the past and I definitely see today as being no different. So thanks for having me back. Thank you. Dr. Ashley? Yeah, hi, everybody.

My name is Dr. Kyle Ashley. I am a professor of higher education at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. And, you know, typical of sort of faculty life. I do a lot of writing, a lot of reading, and my particular focus is really looking at the ways that dominance and privilege resulting from systems of oppression, largely we're talking about racism, sexism, homophobia, things like that, how those things impact college students and how we can help college students think differently and more productively about those issues. So that's a little bit about me. I also do some consulting.

You can find more about me at kyleashley.com and my consulting at ashleyconsulting.com. And I'm Chris Voss. I'm a homeless guy. I spent my summer just riding bikes and throwing the football and I bring smart guys on my podcast so that they can tell us and make us smart

sorry I had to do the summer school thing give us both your dot com so people can find you on the interwebs if you would please sure so basically for me you can find Dr. Lawrence Chatter's motivational speaking on Facebook. Certainly you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. And those

are the two major places that I have a following and a presence. And then for me, like I said, you can find out more about me and my writing and some of the ideas that I'm sharing at www.kyleashley.com. And then you can find out more about the consulting that I do alongside my wife at ashleyconsulting.com. And you can find me at, never mind. So anyway, guys, this is going to be a wonderful discussion. And one of the things that I've been getting great feedback from our shows is people have been seeing how i've been talking uh eddie glott jr show was really big where i got a lot of feedback where people are like i really appreciated seeing how open you were uh how

you were willing to really discuss and and and uh basically flush out these issues uh one of the shows that i've really been enjoying is Uncomfortable Conversations with the Black Man, which are really cool. I just sent a friend of mine the Roger Goodell thing. But having this conversation with ourselves where we can open ourselves up a little bit, we can operate in a safe space, and we can kind of ask ourselves some hard questions that are kind of difficult, but we can try and have an open mind to them. So I think that's what might be what we're doing today. Dr. Lawrence, I'll, Chatters, I'll hand the floor to you and you tell us what we're doing. Awesome. So today, ladies and gentlemen, what we're going to do is we're actually going to

work with Dr. Ashley through his process of understanding his privilege in life. And when I say that, I specifically want to focus in on his privilege as a white cisgender male in our society. And we're going to have a discussion about how that has developed for him and where and when he started to better understand his position in those different aspects and how that's really compelled him to do additional research in that area and also just continue to be open about talking about his journey. I think there are quite a few of us, and I'll put everyone in this bucket, that we understand how we've gotten to where we are in our life and how we understand the world and how we see things conceptually,

but very seldom do we have a chance to fully reflect on that. And what I'll also say is that I really want to thank Dr. Ashley in advance for being willing and open to do this and be vulnerable from these different, in these different respects publicly, because this is also not something that usually unfolds for most of us in a public forum. And so Dr. Ashley, thank you so much. I know I reached out to you earlier and told you to just think about what it was like to be you. And today I'll walk you with a series of questions through that process and, you know, feel free to share anything that you're open to sharing. And there are some other things that you're not so willing to share. I totally understand that too, but thank you for that vulnerability. And in this discussion today, for those of you who

are listening, I hope you can listen to this and truly benefit from hearing about Dr. Ashley's journey and then also reflecting on your own personal journey when it comes to establishing where some of your beliefs and conceptualization of these different concepts that we'll be discussing comes from today. So, Dr. Ashley, thank you so much. Chris, do you want to say something? Oh, yeah. I wanted to interject. If people want to go back to the show that I did with you prior, and this is why we're picking on Dr. Ashley,

is because I already kind of went through this where we went through a bit of these questions and process. And I think it's great that people tune into this because you can kind of see sometimes your own biases better from that third-party thing. I'll hand the phone back to you. Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say thanks for walking me through it. First of all, because you know, engaging in these kinds of conversations is very important, as you said,

and you do not have to take the time to do that. You know, it's, it's a gift that you're, that you're offering me to take the time to do that. You know, it's, it's a gift that you're that you're offering me to give me that perspective. And I think it's important to role model what this looks like, because we don't have many models of doing this kind of critical self reflection in our world. And so I think the more models that we can get like that, the better. And I think, Chris, you'd mentioned that you've gotten some positive feedback for, for doing that. And I think that's the reason, you know, it's just really nice to have people who don't react to their fragility and their defensiveness, but instead act from a place of maturity and, and really growth, you know, it's, it's about wanting to grow and be better. So yeah, I'm excited about it.

All right. So Dr. Ashley, can you start off by just, can you walk us through thinking back as far as you can when we specifically start to focus in on you establishing who you were as a young boy and where some of those, those beliefs of kind of what being a young boy was about. Specifically, let's narrow in on gender to start. So when was it first that you recognized that you were a boy, first and foremost? And let's just start there. Yeah, it's a great place to start. So I'm originally from rural mid-Michigan. So it's a pretty, you know, all white community with folks that look a lot like me. You know, I grew up in the country and all around my house were cornfields. And I come from a family of hunters. So my dad likes to go out into the woods and hunt. My brothers also are hunters. And so really in terms of gender, there were strong messages in my family and in my community

about what it means to be a man. And largely that was connected to hunting. It was connected to the outdoors. You know, there were a lot of, you know, trucks and that kind of thing. So for me, I'm coming to a place where, you know, I used to look at, at that sort of upbringing around masculinity as only negative because it reinforced a lot of behaviors and attitudes that I think are harmful, not only to others, but to myself. But now I'm also starting to see the ways in which that upbringing also, in addition

to some of those harmful attitudes and behaviors also gave me a foundation for some things that I think can also be kind of positive. So an appreciation and a value for the outdoors, for example, is one that I think is really positive from, from my upbringing. Excellent. And so you established early, from an early age, that through seeing what was around you, through hunting, through kind of watching your father's behaviors,

your brother's behaviors, and just seeing how those types of things led to them potentially being considered more masculine or more men or the expectation that you would follow in their footsteps to do some of these things and go along and be okay with what they were doing. Is that where some of the establishment of what's your early ideals about masculinity? Is that where those came from?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And Chris, I saw you had something as well. And I don't mean to interrupt and I'll let it out if it's an interruption. But one thing, and see, I'm learning from this too now. You talked about a few different things there, and it seems like there's a real package to either racism or masculinity, because we're going to talk about both today. But it seems like there's a package. Like a lot of the package you talked about, hunting, the trucks, you know. I grew up with the same sort of thing, the drugs, you know.

And there's kind of this package or idealism around Americanism. And I don't know, what do you think, Dr. Chatters? So no, you're absolutely right. These packages are, by the way, these packages are intentional, right? So if you think about, you know, thinking from a masculine perspective, going out and actually hunting and then potentially killing something and processing it. And if you think about driving in trucks and why a truck is important and why it's functional in a rural area and different things of that nature, these are all things that kind of come together as major components of being in that space. And by the way, there are marketing implications to those things as well, right? So if you think about Michigan in general, and you think about the industries that are more popular

in Michigan and such, and I mean, it just, it all fits together and overlaps in a way. But let's roll something else into this now, Dr. Ashley, because I really want to kind of understand, when do you feel that there was first for you, some kind of an indication in this grand scheme of this masculine package that was being, you know, essentially illuminated to you as you grew up? When did you start to see some challenges there? And I think some of us might, because maybe, you know, we are not as fond of doing certain things within that package. Some of us may not until we get much further along. And we've been seen, we've seen some kind of a complication there that we don't agree with, but how long did you accept that that was who you were potentially at the time,

and that that was what you were going to possibly become? Yeah, I think for me, it was really up until maybe middle school. Maybe, you know, the early parts of high school. And what happened around that time was my parents got divorced. And it was a really, it was a really difficult time in our family. I think one that we still need to do some healing around. But what happened was my dad had an affair. And so it caused my folks to divorce. And I think it also caused me

for the first time in my life to realize that my dad was flawed, that this sort of, you know, model of masculinity and manhood wasn't perfect in the way that maybe I thought he was as a child. And so that caused me to question the ways that I had grown up to believe about myself in terms of what it meant to be a man and how to be a man. And so it was really sort of that divorce that really caused me to say, is that how I want to end up? You know, how my dad is now, the kind of person that he's become, is that the person I want to be? And I think it was really at that point that I started to make some decisions about myself, my manhood, the way that I express my gender, that were maybe different than what my dad role modeled. I see. I see. So basically what I hear you saying is that was

really a watershed moment for you of looking back and saying, that was really the first time that this very idealistic view of your father came into question, right? It was this, well, yeah, I thought he was all of these wonderful things. And at the same time, there are some flaws there. So there were some cracks that you saw now. And if you don't mind me just stepping a little bit more into the space, but who did you end up spending more time with after that divorce happened? Yeah. So after the divorce, you know, I lived with my mom and I ended up spending, you know, a lot more time with my mom. Now that being said, because of capitalism and the pressures of capitalism, my mom had to take on not, you know, an additional job, but two additional jobs to support me and my brothers. And so even though I was spending less time, more time with my mom, I was also spending less time, it seemed like,

because she was working more. I see. Did you perhaps, did you move into more of an industrialized area, or did you stay in the rural area that you had grown up in? We stayed in the rural area, but I think in terms of our social class identity, it really changed. I think when my parents were together, I think we were really more of a middle-class family. And when my folks got divorced, I think that's when I really experienced what it meant to be like a working class, working poor family. I see. I see.

So can you talk a little bit Kyle about, and let's, let's kind of go back to this establishment of your gender. Let's roll into that some perspective of potential religion. Did you grow up in a specific church? Did you learn through that process of being a young man also about what it meant to be a young, you know, enter religion here man in that process? I didn't really. My parents were not particularly religious. And part of that is because they had traumatic experiences around the church growing up. And so they did not want to have a similar, you know, trauma passed on to their kids. At least that's how they explained it to us. my mother is one of the most morally confident and ethically secure people that I've ever met

in my life. She knows what's right and wrong. And she models that. And she, you know, I always say my mom taught me how to be a man, because she taught me the values of, you know, how to be a good person in this world, how to have respect and integrity, you know, how to have character, how to follow through on the things that you say you're going to do, all that I learned from my mother. And my dad, you know, in terms of his value system, you know, I think that there was less confidence there from him. But I do think, again, going back to that sort of appreciation for nature, I think even when he didn't have a lot of confidence in himself, he knew that he could turn to nature, and that was sort of a guide for him and his behavior and his life.

And so I think I got that from him too. Excellent. And thank you so much for talking through that. I think it really is helpful to understand where those values came from for you. And that, you know, also in, it sounds like being more in a space with your mother after the divorce that you saw some of the other things that you would have traditionally attributed to masculinity, possibly with hard work and commitment and working multiple jobs and everything. You saw your mom really manifesting those things to support you and your family at that time. And so that's unique in your, I think, in your development of understanding those concepts too. And then also from that moral perspective, gaining those things from her. And again, juxtaposing that to this extreme questioning of your father's values and morals

after the infidelity, right? And so that's really unique to see that happening from such a young age and what that, I guess, what trajectory that sets you on from both of those different perspectives. So now let's go back also just to this moment. We've heard a little bit about your establishment of gender. We've heard about, you know, that there wasn't necessarily a specific religion that, you know, influenced that timeframe. Let's talk a little bit about patriotism. What was patriotism like in a small rural area growing up in Michigan? And with, you know, as Chris talked about it, this package of masculinity, how did that load in and how do you remember that growing up?

Gosh, that's such a good question because my first reaction was, you know, I don't have a lot of memories of strong patriotism in my community, but I just finished reading a book about uh 9-11 and uh 9-11 happened when i was a freshman in college and uh reading that book made me remember the ways that our country really um isolated itself from the rest of the world during 9-11 by taking this sort of aggressive stance and, you know, trying to be vengeful towards pretty much anybody that we thought was responsible for the attacks. And so I think if I remember that time in my life, there were a lot of American flags. I think what I remember is people coming up with excuses to be racist to brown people, particularly people from the Middle

East or Arab and Muslim backgrounds, and that being justified in some way. And there was a lot of that in my community and where I grew up for sure. And so I think for me, again, being in high school and having already started this process of questioning my foundation in terms of what I thought was how I was supposed to be when that stuff started to come about. I also had some really great teachers that helped me think about this stuff in more complex ways. But yeah, I just started to think about how that was not the brand of patriotism and not the kind of American that I wanted to be. Well, I truly appreciate you thinking through that and also sharing just what your journey was like when you looked back on because I mean, of course, 9-11 just recently, you know, we had the anniversary. And I think we all do that

retrospective where we were and what we were experiencing and what we saw after that and how we really saw our country change after that. And I think that's a really important thing to mention. But as we think back to our communities during that time, and if you would think back to quite a few of the rural communities, there really wasn't another voice in those communities to talk about why what we were doing as a country at that point in time to totally ostracize an entire religion and group of people wasn't right, right? Those voices didn't exist in the rural areas of Nebraska, or sorry, not, well, Nebraska, Iowa, Michigan, wherever, right? It was really this idea of, well, let's come together as a country. And that coming together as a country didn't include people that look different in some spaces. And so let us shift

and jump into that discussion about race and ethnicity, okay? Because what I think you've really described here for us, Dr. Ashley, is you've described your cultural development here. You've described kind of how you grew up from a cultural perspective, which there are quite a few white Americans who don't truly understand what their culture is. They see it as this idea of, well, you know, I just grew up as American, right? But there are aspects of culture and ethnicity and traditions that do permeate a lot of areas in our country that are a part of the cultural identity of white Americans. And so I think you've really described that process to us. We haven't gone into depth here, by the way, we haven't talked specifically about what the country of origin is of your family, and where maybe some of these hunting rituals came from and the rural, the agrarian side of things, right?

But we've talked a little bit about that. So can you talk a little bit more just about from that cultural perspective, from this race perspective, when was the first time that you recognized that you were white? Yeah. So, you know, in terms of white culture, I did not have any consciousness of that really until college and really grad school was when that first kind of even entered my awareness in any way. But I think I had some consciousness about race at a much earlier age. And so even though my family growing up did not talk openly about race, we talked very covertly about race. And so I have memories of driving to Flint. So where I'm from is sort of a rural community just outside of Flint. And Flint is a much more urban community, much more, you know, black and people of color who live there. And even though, you know, we didn't really talk explicitly about that, it was sort of assumed and known within my family and within our community that that was the case.

Flint was also the closest mall. And so when we had to do back to school shopping or holiday shopping, we would go over to Flint and we would go to the Genesee County Mall. And I have vivid memories of driving in the car with my parents. And once we drove over the town line to get into Flint, my parents would lock the doors and roll up the windows. And no words were said, but the subtle message was, now that we're here in this place where these people are, we're not safe. And the subtext, again, is that the people who live here are unsafe, right? Again, they didn't use any words.

They didn't say anything. And then one more layer down of subtext is that we don't have to do this in our own community. When we drive around where we're from, we don't have to lock the doors and roll up the windows, which means that the people who look like us are assumed to be safe and, and okay. Right. So there's, there's this like very comprehensive package, Chris, like you were saying, in terms of packages, very comprehensive package that socialized me around what it means to be a white person in the community that I grew up in without saying any words at all. Right. And so that's,

that's always a memory that I, that I recall really vividly about coming to consciousness about race at an early age. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, that's a really compelling visual, by the way, of seeing the family roll into the more urban side of town or getting closer to where there's different types of people. And then all of a sudden, they're no longer open, literally and figuratively, right? It's really like, let's do what we came here to do and then go back to our safe community, right? And in our safe community, there are more people that look like us, who potentially think like us, who will not steal from us. But in these spaces, you know, essentially what the underlying idea is, is that these people we don't know, they're different from us.

We don't understand how they think or what they believe. And therefore, we have to close ourself off to them, right? And so we all know that one of the major drivers of this inability of us to truly understand each other's perspectives is fear, right? And so that in and of itself is fear. And therefore, how can you be open in those spaces? If you're beginning a lesson that you get from this process of moving into those spaces is we should be uncomfortable here, right? Yeah, we should be uncomfortable here because we don't know these people. They don't know us. And therefore, you know, and honestly, I think that those ideals of fear for those different spaces were likely cultivated by other people's experiences, right? So somebody that from your area who would have gone to Flint and said,

well, my car was burglarized, or I had this negative experience, or, you know, these panhandlers are asking for money on the corners and, you know, these different types of things. And that's uncomfortable for me. And they go back and they tell these stories. And then that shapes the behavior of other people as they move into those spaces. But commerce has always forced us in some ways to interact, especially during those times when we didn't have online stores that we were ordering all these things from, right? We didn't have the ability to really get certain things without having to go to certain places. So it does force us to do those things. So, but Dr. Ashley, can you talk just a little bit about when was it that you decided and when, when did you possibly start going into those spaces on

your own? You did talk about your journey in college, which can you talk to us a little bit about where you decided to go and why you decided to go there? And, and then maybe how that was a bit of a venture outside of this box potentially that you had grown up in and how that started to open your mind a little more there because education is also another thing that starts to remove some of those barriers from us as well. Absolutely. Yeah. It, for me, it really was college. So I graduated in, you know, the top 10 of my class and I applied applied to two colleges so i was i was a first generation college student neither of my parents went to college um and so in terms of

applying to college i had no idea what i was doing um so i had some help and i had some guidance counselors who really kind of helped shepherd me through that process uh I remember filling out the FAFSA and asking my mom, like, how much do you earn every year? And it was the first time my mom and I had ever had a conversation about like finances in our house. And I remember feeling like, wow, this is really grown up, you know, like, like, I'm an adult, I'm having conversations with my mom about her annual income. So anyway, so I did all that sort of not knowing anything. And I applied to two schools because that was really the extent of my, you know, expansive thinking. Like I really couldn't imagine going to school outside of the state because I

barely imagined going to school at all, you know? So, so I applied to two colleges in the state of Michigan, Michigan State University and the University of Michigan. And I really wasn't super excited about going to Michigan State because like more than half of my graduating class was going there. And for me, college was going to be a chance to get away from this place where all of these ideas that I'm starting to question are, you know, are reinforced.

And so I was lucky enough to get into the University of Michigan, and I got some scholarships to kind of help with that process. And it really was like country mouse. You know, I, I was in a whole new world and my college roommate, I had two roommates in my first year of college. The first one was another white kid from the UP who his parents got divorced when he was young. And so he and I just really connected. And then the other was this Latino guy from LA and he had lived a vastly different life than me and so I learned a lot in that first year just by living with somebody who had a very different

experience and I remember staying up late some nights talking with both of my roommates about affirmative action because it was 2003 and the University of Michigan had just landed a hallmark affirmative action case and everybody on campus was talking about it. And so it was a part of every class that I was taking. And I remember having a conversation one night with my roommates saying, you know, affirmative action is reverse racism to white people. I remember saying that. And then, you know, by the time my sophomore year rolls around, I am going through RA class and learning about how people of color experience barriers to the education system through all these systems of oppression that have, you know,

set them back basically since the founding of this country and realizing that, you know, the idea that we start off on an equal playing ground and that, you know, we should be treated based off of our merits. I realized that that's a bunch of bull crap, you know, it's a bunch of bull crap. And so, yeah, that was really when it kind of started to change for me. And I really started to willingly put myself into communities and environments where I was the only one. You know, I remember going to, um, like, uh, uh, uh, a Buddhist temple, uh, just to see what it was like to be in a space of worship that was different

than, uh, a Catholic church, which is all I knew growing up. Um, and, and like I said, my parents weren't religious, but, uh, the only really option was to go with friends and we would go to the Catholic church because that's what, you know, largely in my community was um so yeah it really was in college when i started to to do stuff like that put myself outside my comfort zone and and really willingly want to experience something really different than what i had known chris did you want to say something? No, I'm just sitting here making notes and learning stuff. I encourage anybody who's listening to make notes.

So, Kyle, thank you so much for vividly walking us through that journey of yours. I mean, I imagine you and this other kid in your room, your room, you know, and your space just like, wow, we found each other, right? Like we have unique experiences that are the same and how awesome is it that we found each other? And I am not familiar with the terminology UP, but does that mean upper peninsula or? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, and then there's this guy from LA who is totally different, you know, culturally and ethnically from you all potentially and probably working with both of you through coming to the realization of some of the implications of the affirmative action case that's brewing at Michigan. time to be able to have access to people who have maybe similar and then also different perspectives from you also in the classroom and some of the things that were happening there and to go into it with this thought process of yeah this is reverse racism and you know there's there's really no reason why and as I'm thinking about this journey and and I'm thinking about your personal journey I'm thinking here you are asking your mom at that, you know, dinner table for the

first time, how much she makes coming to that realization. And then probably being surprised first and foremost, that she's able to make do with such a little amount, you know, because I just understand the inequality there with pay and women and such, but, and then you on your own merits and, you know, the support of your family and your guidance counselors and such, make it to Michigan, right? And then here's these other people that are also there. And now here you are coming from meager means and then also a first generation student having to reckon with this idea that for some reason, other people who come from a similar background as you, who might look different than you, deserve more of an opportunity, right? And I'm just thinking about that. And I'm like, wow, as a young white college age male at that time, how was it possible for you to get around that? Because honestly, that is where I find a lot of

people get stuck. They get stuck in their own personal experience and how they've struggled. And when you say white privilege to them, they go back to the same essential story that you've told me today. And they say, well, I didn't have privilege. My parents got divorced. My mom had to work on her own. She had to pull herself up by the bootstraps. She helped me and my brothers and sisters get to where we are. You know, I got into college on my own merits. I was top 10 in my class. If I wasn't top 10 in my class, I may not have gotten in. I'm not going to go too much further down that rabbit hole. But what I'm going to say is, how were you able to sidestep the weight of a part of our issue is that people can't remove themselves. They cannot stand above their situation and see things. So talk me through just a little bit more. When did you feel yourself starting to shift in your thought process during that time?

Because it was such a hot button issue, affirmative action, and your school was the center of it. How did you do that in that moment yeah well you know like i said it was uh it was a conversation that was happening everywhere on campus so uh in all of my classes we were talking about it um and in particular i remember i think i referenced i remember taking this class it was called intergroup dialogue and it was a required class to be an RA. And I applied to be, we say RA, it's short for resident assistant. And basically it's a student employment position on campus where you're in charge of a floor of college students who are living in the

dorms or the residence halls. And so I was going through that class as a requirement for this job and i remember sitting around in a circle with all the other students in the class and the assignment was to talk about um your life experience in relation to uh your your racial identity. We were focusing specifically on race. And it was a very diverse group of students. So we went around the circle and there were students of color who continued to share their experiences that were just things that I could never imagine happening to me. You know, things that were said to them, you know, conditions in their family, people who were convicted and sent to jail. The communities that they were a part of that just did not have the same access to resources that I found to be commonplace. And then, you know, it got around to me.

And I felt like I didn't have anything of substance to share because I had never really even considered what my life was like in terms of my racial identity. That was not something that I had ever even thought about. And so I think the more I had experiences like that, where I heard other people sharing the ways in which they struggled and experienced pain as a result of these systems of oppression, and I compared it to my own experience, I said, you know, yes, I may have had some challenge and struggle in my life around social class and around some of that stuff. But the more that I'm hearing from these people, the more I'm starting to understand that not only did they experience some of those similar struggles around social class, but also they had other struggles. They had struggles around belonging and community and not having access to resources. And so, you know, it really just made me kind of analyze reality in the way that I had been

thinking about it and realizing that there was more to, to reality. There was more to society and the way that people live their lives than I had ever really allowed myself or realized before. And, you know, Dr. Ashley, there's a certain complexity there that you're describing at a young age, in my opinion, personally, because in my work with young college men and what they're experiencing at that time, that level of compassion, that level of empathy, that understanding, that emotional intelligence that you experienced during those moments is certainly more complex than what I see is available with a lot of other young men. And so I certainly want to commend you for that. But I also want to ask

you the question about what compelled you to learn more and what compelled you to not stop at this idea of, well, none of the things that happened to those people was my fault, because that's where I see a lot of people getting stuck too. You know, they're saying, well, I didn't cause any of the issues that these folks are talking about in this circle. So why should I, you know, be compelled to do additional work in this area or do even more self-exploration, right? And again, that may be because of that lack of complexity or understanding, or maybe even some kind of a ceiling in empathy that doesn't allow people to then want to learn more about themselves and others. But how did you navigate around that barrier that we see so often with other people

to continue into that work and then honestly become a well-read and written individual in that area? Because, I mean, that's kind of covering the expanse of where you were then and where you are now a little bit more as we'll continue to develop that. But talk to me about how you moved around that barricade of that wasn't my fault. And I, there's not really anything that I can do about that. Yeah. So I think the first thing to acknowledge is that, you know, you're, you're getting the version of Kyle almost 20 years after this process started, or maybe, maybe even more than 20 years after this process started. And that's not to say I've

got everything figured out. It is it is absolutely still a daily practice. And one that I have to continue to evaluate my own biases and the ways that our culture continues to ingrain some of these myths. But yeah, I mean, at the time, especially as a college student, yeah, I was resistant. I had tons of fragility. I didn't want to believe that I was responsible for anybody else's suffering. And I did want to believe that I was responsible for my own success. And I think, like I said, for one reason or another, I think I was open to developing genuine relationships with people who are different from me. And I think, like I said, that was a big drive for me in going to college period, was I really wanted to experience something different. And I really

wanted to develop relationships with people who were different from me, because growing up, I didn't have any of that. And I think somehow I, I started to realize that that was a detriment to me, that I had actually, um, suffered in my life because I, I hadn't developed any meaningful relationships with people who were different from me. Wow. And so I think I, first of all, I appreciate you. I appreciate you going back and actually acknowledging that there was some fragility still that was there and recognizing that

it wasn't a simple process. And I think that's the complexity of it all for us is that there are fits and starts in that process. Sometimes some days we'd like to believe we are responsible for our success. There's other days that we want to write our mentors and say, thank you for everything you did for me, right? We ebb and flow with this idea that we have the ability to truly change our own personal futures. The other thing, though, that I want to acknowledge here is that you are able to look back on this 20 some odd years later. And I think that's absolutely amazing. And I also do think that as we are talking about, as Chris mentioned, hey, folks should take notes and stuff. I do want people to think about some of the questions that we've talked about today in their

own life. I want them to think about when was it first that you did recognize this is who I am and these are the things that my family believes in. This is what is that package, so to speak, of my cultural being. I want folks to really do that exploration and I want them to look at it from where they are now. I would venture to say that, you know, a lot of the people listening to this podcast are introspective enough that they could start to think about these things and they can start to talk about these things. Wouldn't it be interesting to have this conversation now, Dr. Ashley, with your dad or your mom and just talk to them about what it was like for you to develop these things? And maybe they say to you, gosh, I had no idea that I was teaching you this by my actions in this specific area. I had no idea that these are the beliefs that you took from these things that we did every year. Because now that we are parents, right, we want to believe that we are really curating

these opportunities and memories for our kids, but maybe they don't get out of it what we expect them to, right? And, you know, unfortunately, today, we won't have time to really go into more of an advanced discussion about how, you know, with the partner that you decided to marry and such, how this thing was really, you know, shifted in a different direction when it comes to the cultural difference between you and your partner and such. But I think that, you know, honestly, I've just been very, very pleased with your openness and your vulnerability to talk about these issues today.

And I'm so happy to have the opportunity to talk with us about you today. Yeah, absolutely. I feel the same way. I think having genuine opportunities to really reflect in this kind of way are rare. I don't think in our busy culture we are encouraged to reflect in this kind of way are rare. You know, I don't think in our, in our busy culture, we are encouraged to reflect in this way. And I think that's probably intentional. Like you mentioned, and some of the other ways that we're taught to think, I think it's intentional that we're encouraged not to reflect in this way, because if we did, we might start to develop some critical consciousness, and we might start to make some different choices about our actions and our attitudes and our behaviors. So, yeah, I just appreciate the opportunity to reflect because I think it's important.

So one more question for you, Dr. Ashley, and then Chris, I'll turn it back over to you to kind of go through and, you know, potentially ask any additional questions you might have. Did you feel that you were losing anything in the process of developing your critical consciousness? Did you feel that somehow you were less than by acknowledging that you weren't fully responsible for your own success or that, you know, did you, did you lose anything in that process? I just really want to kind of better understand your journey that way. And maybe you can talk about if you didn't lose anything, do you feel that you gained anything in that process of developing that critical consciousness and such? Yeah, that's a great question. So I share this anecdote often, but you had mentioned my wife and how she's influenced my journey in these ways. So she's a woman of color and she thinks very critically and just, you know, just a very powerful, strong woman. And, you know, we have

conversations about this stuff pretty regularly. And I remember early on in our relationship, her sharing about her experiences and the ways that she's struggled with being marginalized in different ways. And me resisting some of that in one way or another through our conversations. And at one point she said to me, Kyle, what would it mean for you just to believe me? What would it mean for you just to believe that the things that I'm telling you about my own experience are true? That they actually happen the way that I have said that they happen?

And it kind of just stopped me in my tracks, you know, because essentially what the question is asking is, you know, can you put your own, you know, assumptions about who I am aside and let me speak for myself? And it's a powerful question and one that I continue to think about a lot because I think that really is ultimately the conversation that all of us are trying to grapple with around race and identity in our country is what would it mean for the folks who have privilege and dominance in one way or another in our country to just believe people who are sharing their experiences of oppression and marginalization. So essentially, that's the same question that you're asking me. What does it mean? Do I have to give anything up? And truthfully, in my experience, it has been

more rewarding than challenging. That doesn't mean there isn't challenge. Of course, there's challenge. But it's been more rewarding than challenging. So I'll say in terms of the challenge, it's about learning to think in new ways, learning to live in new ways. It's about owning your mistakes. It's about recognizing where you can grow and the ways that you have potentially been responsible for someone else's pain and suffering. And those things are not easy to do. But what I have found is that when I choose to look at those things, and when I choose to openly acknowledge the ways that I have potentially participated in systems of oppression or unknowingly contributed to someone else's pain

and suffering the more that i actually acknowledge that the better i feel it's like getting something off your chest it's like um you know i don't have to carry this around with me anymore i don't have to feel um the weight of it anymore um and so you know that's's just one example of how it's benefited me and been good for me. Another one, I think, from the very beginning was about developing authentic relationships with people who are different. And my life is full of people who are different from me. And I feel so, so fortunate to have so many people around me who have, you know, very different experiences from me. And I learn and grow so much because of them. And it's not something where they feel like they have to teach me because we have a genuine and authentic relationship. They want to share

their experiences with me. And again, it's like I said, it is a continuous practice. I have to work to maintain those relationships and bring those people into my life. So, so yeah, I, I think that kind of gets at your question of is there anything lost and is there anything gained? And, and yes, there is absolutely something gained by doing this work. And it is, it is challenging and I think the challenge is worth it. That is, that's an absolutely amazing, just summary of the true benefits of doing this exploration. To those of you who get a chance to listen to this, I mean, that's really,

certainly just a wonderful way of putting this together and saying that in those relationships that you do have with people who are different from you in your life, that you would fully authentically experience those individuals and not see them as, you know, specific in any tokenist type of a way, that you would fully embrace that understanding of those different cultures around you and, and just really embrace that. And I think it's just amazing, Dr. Ashley, that you've been able to share your journey with us today.

And I truly, truly appreciate your vulnerability and just your insight into this. And I hope that others have been able to learn from this. And Chris, it's just great that you allow us a platform to have this discussion openly and to talk about uh the benefits here so thank you guys for coming on man i feel like i'm in class i'm learning stuff taking notes getting an education here do i have to pay for this that's just what i want to know because i can't afford a student loan right now uh i actually have this one's free i actually have some hard-hitting questions for Dr. Kyle Ashley on unconscious bias. It looks like from the photo behind you, it appears that you're a Beatles fan.

You've got the Abby Rowe picture behind you. Yeah, so this is a name tag that I made as the director of orientation at my first job. And the theme of orientation, so new student orientation when students are coming to campus, the theme of the orientation that year was like dreamers do. Have you ever studied the unconscious bias of why you didn't use the Rolling Stones and used the Stones? Honestly, we could spend a whole episode unpacking Beatles and Stones and

systemic oppression as it relates to the music industry. I think your question is a fair one. I appreciate it. From our prior episode, I'm still struggling why Dr. Chatters prefers rap music over Metallica. We had that discussion on the show, but I'm still grappling with it.

We'll get there. Excellent. Bring a little lovey-dovey. I love what you guys did here. This is really brilliant. Thank you for the vulnerability, if I can speak these words, of both of you coming on the show and sharing this stuff.

I've seen a couple of your guys' videos that you guys have done together as a team and some other people where you guys have really helped open stuff up. Some of my notes here, I'll just share with these. Some of the kind of like epiphanies that I had are kind of things that I kind of, you know, I had experienced when I was a kid and my teenagers where I didn't want to belong to the cult anymore.

And so the cult and uh, and there was a lot of different issues with my parents and fighting with them. And it was, you know, we're fighting, let's put it that way. Um, and then, uh, so the cult paid for me to go to a cult psychologist to try and figure out why I was, you know, wanting to go join Satan or whatever. And so we went to the, so I went to the psychologist a few times. And really the whole issue when I want to leave is because I've been leaving for a long time. And then I had a friend I want to play with on Sunday. That was really it.

There's something I just want to go play with my friend on Sunday. And so we went to the cult psychologist and had this huge, after about four or five meetings, we had this huge blow-up meeting where he brought my parents in and we and and he went at me and like he really like anti-psychologist crazy went at me like he flipped out screaming and everything else but them being able to see what the fights where we were having a home had done they were able to see what was going on because they were able to see third party outside the box with my crazy cult psychologist. And that's when they went, okay, we just need to,

we get it. I don't know if that's an analogy that helps here at all, but I hope this gives people a bit of a template to look at internally where we can kind of that same sort of format where we see someone else talking about their experiences and I think that brings up at least for me a lot of internal dialogue that I have myself of well where did that apply to me and how did my parents and how did my childhood be raised some of the things I kind of had epiphany on and was this packages of identity concept. And when Dr. Ashley was unpacking, you know, some of the different aspects of that package for masculinity, you know, I was thinking about mine the same, you know, John Wayne was an aspect. I grew up in California on nice cars, Beverly Hills. But when I moved to Utah, I definitely came across the, probably more like

his rural Michigan, you know, the, we drive trucks, pick up trucks and, you know, the whole hunting and killing and the, and, and it made me sort of realize there's these packages of identity, whether it's identity of racism or identity of masculinity that we have that are kind of these, uh, uh, they're, they're kind of built up as these insulations or cover for the insecurity of who we are, who we think we should be. And they keep us from learning new things because we, we kind of hold onto those as like a, a, like a buffer or like an insulation.

I don't know if anybody wants to talk about that. Comfort zone. It's just our comfort zone, right? Yeah. And it's just, it's this identity of masculinity. I think maybe racists have the same. We were talking before the show about how sometimes when you're arguing with people who are talking about racist stuff, they're against Black Lives Matter, football kneeling, and all these other aspects that they get charged from by a certain president. You can't really get down to the real issue of like, well, why are you racist and what issues do you have with people in minorities?

And it's kind of the same thing, this package of whatever that they have, and it keeps them isolated and they don't learn from it. So maybe some people can get something from that. Some other notes that I had, there was a comment i think dr chan has made cultural development and identity growing up as an american and that's probably also some of these packages of identity uh where and we talked about this a lot of different shows in fact we have a new show coming out that's going to talk about but the package of identity the the shining city on the hill, the manifest destiny, this whole package of identity where we think that whatever,

and the show that's coming out today is extraordinary too as well. Fear is a basis. Identity is a key to fixing it. We talked a little bit about that. One thing that was interesting to me was you talked about how when you went into certain neighborhoods with the mall, you guys would lock the doors. That was quite extraordinary to me. And then you also talked, Dr. Ashley,

about developing relationships with people who are different than you. And what you can really see there is the redlining of America, if you're familiar with that. I mean, a lot of freeways and neighborhoods were built to separate us as different colors of people, and people that are richer, people that are poorer, everything else. We are built with this huge fabric. It's just insane how complex it is when you really start tuning in and thinking about it, of racial policy and redlining and ways of keeping people out.

You know, I think Eddie Glaude Jr. on my show, he said, you know, white people are always like, yeah, we need to help minorities. But then when you say we need a firm action, they're like, wait, oh, no, hold on. Now I'm against that. And you're like, well, wait. So, but it's interesting how one of the biggest problems we still face in America, and I think there's a study that was cited in one of my conversations, maybe with you guys,

where a lot of people don't know or hang out, and I think, Dr. Chad, is it with you, where we don't spend a lot of time in our neighborhoods with people that look very different than us and think very different than us because we've been, we've had that red lining that separates us and stuff. Uh, and so that was interesting to me to think about, you know, uh, and, and Dr. Chatter's actually, it's kind of funny. We, we did the show and he said, you know, how many black friends do you have or minority friends do you have, Chris? And I, I, and I and i got thinking about i'm like well i don't hang out with hardly anybody

now because of coronavirus but i don't i've always been kind of solitude uh sort of dude but i don't yeah i was like yeah i don't think i really have any and then after the show i went on my facebook and i'm like holy crap i actually do have a lot of friends that are minorities and i started freaking out i'm like if holy crap, I actually do have a lot of friends that are minorities. And I started freaking out. I'm like, if they hear this show, they're going to hate me because they're going to be like, what, Chris, what do you do? But the problem is I don't consciously think about it. So I don't like go, oh, there's, you know, like Donald Trump.

There's my African-American friend over there. So I actually had to do a blurb. I don't know if you'd heard it. Uh, Dr. Chatters, I had to do a blurb insert in the show where I'm like, I did say this to Dr. Chatters, but I actually do have friends. If you go to my Facebook, people I interact with, you know, um, I felt really stupid about that, but I don't think about it. So I grew up in California. What can you say? Uh, but you know, I, I still need to work on my unconscious biases, whatever I have. Critical consciousness, I thought that was pretty interesting.

It's painful to reflect on your critical conscious biases. I have to try and read my own handwriting here. But I think it's extraordinary that we go down that, that we're vulnerable, that we go, you know, what is it? And i think that's what keeps a lot of people from going down these journeys is they're painful you have to go wait am i responsible for being a jerk i mean i was just driving down the road to actually run somebody over or hit them or or uh get some special privilege from it and um putting your assumptions aside and uh thinking about not just our experience, but others with some of the different things that I made notes on that kind of stood out to me. So I love what went on here. Any comment on anything guys?

Well, I just want to note and make clear how, you know, all of the you know, the highlights that you just pulled out and the conversation that we just had wouldn't have been possible without Dr. Chatters and the insight and perspective and just facilitation of the conversation and knowing where to take the conversation, right. Based off of your expertise, your knowledge and your lived experience. And so I think we owe a huge thanks and gratitude to Dr. Chatters for facilitating the learning

today. Thanks, Dr. Chatters. Yeah. I mean, this is really cool what I've been learning from you guys on inclusive issues is that there's a lot of this going on now where there's inclusion officers at different places, a lot of workplaces are taking on this. So I think this is really important to help change a lot of minds. Yeah, and thank you so much, Dr. Ashley, just for, the more open they're willing to be, the more self-critical we get, the more progress we're able to make. And this is where, through a number of these different trainings and things that are happening

across the country, you know, unfortunately, because we can't have these one-on-one conversations sometimes, it's very difficult to make progress because we don't truly get to the root of the issue with a lot of people. And then when you're in a space too, with other folks who are also going through this same journey, it's harder to be vulnerable. And I totally understand that. I think that, you know, as you talked about my expertise area as a psychologist, I do get an extra awareness of how to walk people through this process to understand it and then also reflecting in a way that's empathic so that you understand i'm here with you i'm not just doing this just because uh and that doesn't necessarily happen in all space of inclusion and equity and so it's it is a challenging thing that we all face you have your your uh development process that

you've gone through and you are exceptionally aware, you know that multicultural competence is an ongoing journey. I think some folks think that it's a destination. They think that they're going to get there and then nothing else is going to have to change after that. And it is an ongoing thing. And so as we talked earlier about, well, what are some of the barriers to getting people to like actually start critically thinking about these things? Well, first and foremost, the fact that it's an ongoing, never ending journey, that doesn't excite anybody about anything, right? Like, yeah, you're about to start this, and you're never gonna finish. So wait a minute, you're telling me that I'll never be comfortable again, in my perspective on where I am and how I've gotten to this space, you know, from a

cultural perspective? No, because that's just what our country has given us from its historical context. And, you know, I in my announcement about my new job, I said, we are always seeking to be a more perfect union. And I think we just always as a people have to also be seeking to become better. Right. And I think that process in and of itself is so challenging. Nobody wants to think that they haven't arrived. It's such a hard thing to swallow. And in our country, by the way, and I think we're all seeing this, we're seeing a ratcheting up of all things that are diametrically opposed right now. And that means that each perspective is going to say, look at me, no, look at me. And if you look at that other thing, then you're wrong. You know, I mean, we have to get people to choose a side right now. And it's an unfortunate reality of our two party system. And so I think we're just going to have to be extremely aware of how much these next couple of months are going to tear our country in half. And then hopefully, again, we always try to think that

the election is maybe something that would bring people together, but it hasn't been in recent years, right? And so we're kind of this democratic experiment that we have is not working as well as we would have wanted it to continue working with the peaceful transfer of power and different things like that. And so anyways, all of that just to say, Dr. Ashley, thank you so much for being willing to be openly vulnerable in public, because it's just something that I don't see a lot of people engage in when we're doing this work. And I understand why. But I hope through hearing your story and Chris through this platform, other people

will gain some access to their own personal experience the way that you did, Chris, and be able to relate to it the way that you did as well. Thanks, guys. This has been fun. This has been fun. I've had a – who did this? I've made a bunch of notes, and fortunately, I have a copy, so I can always go back and re-listen. Sometimes I do.

I just go back and re-listen to the old podcasts. So this has been awesome. Guys, give us your links on where people can find you on the interwebs, buy your books, all that good stuff. Go ahead, Dr. Chatters. Oh, thank you. So Dr. Lawrence Chatters, Motivational Speaking on Facebook. You know, a like on there will gain you access to some when I'm not, you know, overwhelmed with my current job. Basically, times where I share perspectives on things. Certainly, you can reach out to me if you want me to work closely with your organization on inclusion and equity work on Twitter.

Lchat1 on Instagram, PHDJ. And, you know, there's a number of places I'm certainly willing to have personal conversations with folks that want to walk through the journey. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I love that you do so many different things. Like in addition to being this just amazing educator and the fear of these, these important and difficult conversations, you also bring joy to the world through being a DJ and music. And I, yeah, I just, I love that. So in terms of my stuff, like I said before, kyleashley.com,

the consulting work that I do with my wife is ashleyconsulting.com. We wrote a book in 2016, A Torch for Your Social Justice Journey. VITAL stands for Vulnerability, Identity, Trust, Authorship, and Liberation. And the book sort of does an overview of those principles and why they're all important in social justice work. So you can find that book on Amazon and other places that sell books. We try and price it

basically so that it's free because we want people to access this information because you know Chris you said like do you have to pay anything for this and you know really I think when it comes to this kind of work and these messages I want

us all to be free and I don't think, uh, freedom should have a price tag. So, um, yeah, the more that we can do this, this kind of stuff, um, and the more we can share these, these kinds of ideas, I think the better off we're all going to be. I think definitely. So, um, I mean, what we want to see is a achievement of balance in, in life where everyone can get along together. One of my things that I go to, I'm an atheist, but one of the things I go to is John Lennon's song, Imagine. I have a real deep belief in that, that we can all get along, that we can all be great people. When people are suffering, when people are not doing as well as others, we need to lift them up.

To me, that used to be the American way. I've kind of found out that Americana isn't quite built that way, but that's kind of the BS that we've sold ourselves over the years, but that just gives us more of a potential to be educated and address it, and so that we can understand that, you know, we all have this basis. I mean, we're all human beings. We're all, we all have the same sort of dreams, the same sort of, uh, uh, desires. We all raise our children wanting the best for them. Uh, this isn't a separation of, of, of, um, of minorities or color or anything else. We're all human beings. And so we should

treat each other as human beings. And we also should learn to recognize like, okay, so where do we have issues? And we should work to fix those issues. Because to me, a rising tide lifts all boats. And this idea of scarcity that gets thrown us at politics or like, well, if I have to help someone up, I have to give them more. It's like standing on the shore and someone's drowning and they're like, hey, I need some help someone up, I have to give them more. It's like standing on the shore and someone's drowning, and they're like, hey, I need some help. And you're like, well, you know, all people standing on the shore, lives matter or something, you know. It's just so stupid.

You know, you wouldn't jump in the water to help that person. You would because they're a human being. And so I think that's something we all need to look at you know i i i like 9-11 um uh that affected me i was a republican up until 9-11 after that i didn't become a democrat i just kind of went wow the world's much bigger than me and there's a lot of bad stuff going on in the world and good stuff and not everyone has got the same sort of opportunities. And why aren't people blowing up our world? And that led me down the exploration of the values that I became. And so I think all of us need to go through that in an education process.

It's very easy to hold on to these packages of identity where we go, oh, I'm this or I'm that. But I think it makes us better people when we think about trying to get outside that box and what we want to take and do. Anyway, thanks to Dr. Kyle Ashley and Dr. Lawrence Chatters for being with us today. You guys are brilliant minds, and hopefully my audience has learned some wonderful stuff. We'll look you guys up on the interwebs. And maybe we'll have some more of this before in the future.

I'm not sure what format we'll do. But see the prior podcast we have with both these gentlemen. You can search for them on The Chris Voss Show and check them out. Also go to Amazon.com forward slash shop forward slash Chris Voss. You can see all the books of all the wonderful people that have been on the show. You now see this show on Amazon Music. So there you go. Just search for the Chris Voss Show as well.

Find me on Goodreads under Chris Voss, and there's a new group. We just set up the Chris Voss Show. We've been giving away some books and all that good stuff. Anything more important to say as we go out, guys? No, nothing really. Just, again, thank you for the opportunity to to connect and yeah looking forward to the next time we can do it absolutely thanks there you go i kind of threw you guys that one on the curveball huh uh thanks for being on the show guys thanks my honest for tuning in

be safe stay well be healthy register to vote and vote against fascism we'll see you next time