The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – A Knock at Midnight: A Story of Hope, Justice, and Freedom by Brittany K. Barnett

Episode Date: September 11, 2020

A Knock at Midnight: A Story of Hope, Justice, and Freedom by Brittany K. Barnett Brittanykbarnett.com Buriedaliveproject.org Girlsembracingmothers.org An urgent call to free those buried alive by America’s legal system, and an inspiring true story about unwavering belief in humanity—from a gifted young lawyer and important new voice in the movement to transform the system. NAMED ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS OF THE SUMMER BY USA TODAY AND NEWSWEEK • “An essential book for our time . . . Brittany K. Barnett is a star.”—Van Jones, CEO of REFORM Alliance, CNN Host, and New York Times bestselling author Brittany K. Barnett was only a law student when she came across the case that would change her life forever—that of Sharanda Jones, single mother, business owner, and, like Brittany, Black daughter of the rural South. A victim of America’s devastating war on drugs, Sharanda had been torn away from her young daughter and was serving a life sentence without parole—for a first-time drug offense. In Sharanda, Brittany saw haunting echoes of her own life, both as the daughter of a formerly incarcerated mother and as the once-girlfriend of an abusive drug dealer. As she studied this case, a system came into focus: one where widespread racial injustice forms the core of America’s addiction to incarceration. Moved by Sharanda’s plight, Brittany set to work to gain her freedom. This had never been the plan. Bright and ambitious, Brittany was a successful accountant on her way to a high-powered future in corporate law. But Sharanda’s case opened the door to a harrowing journey through the criminal justice system. By day she moved billion-dollar deals, and by night she worked pro bono to free clients in near-hopeless legal battles. Ultimately, her path transformed her understanding of injustice in the courts, of genius languishing behind bars, and the very definition of freedom itself. Brittany’s riveting memoir is at once a coming-of-age story and a powerful evocation of what it takes to bring hope and justice to a system built to resist them both. Brittany K. Barnett is an award-winning attorney and entrepreneur focused on social impact investing. She is dedicated to transforming the criminal justice system and has won freedom for numerous people serving life sentences for federal drug offenses--including seven clients who received executive clemency from President Barack Obama. Brittany is founder of a series of social enterprises, including XVI Capital Partners, Milena Reign LLC, the Buried Alive Project, and Girls Embracing Mothers. She has earned many honors, including being named one of America's most Outstanding Young Lawyers by the American Bar Association.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, I'm Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, we're coming to you with another great podcast. We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in.

Be sure to watch the video version of this at youtube.com for just Chris Voss. We've got an award-winning attorney and entrepreneur on the show. She's written a great new book that I think will blow your mind. And some of the things she's doing in the world are making the world a better place. Her book, A Knock at Midnight, A Story of Hope, Justice, and Freedom. Her name is Brittany K. Barnett. She's focused on social impact investing. She is dedicated to transforming the criminal justice system and has won freedom for numerous people serving fundamental death sentences for federal drug offenses, including seven clients who received executive clemency from President Barack Obama. Brittany is the founder of several nonprofits and social enterprises,

including the Buried Alive Project, Girls Embracing Mothers, and the XVI Capital Partners, it's Roman numerals there, and the Melendz Reign LLC. She has earned many honors, including being named one of America's most outstanding young lawyers by the American Bar Association. And she's the author of this great new book, a memoir, detailing how her journey transformed her understanding of injustice in the courts, of genius languishing behind bars, and the very definition of freedom itself. Welcome to the show, Brittany. How are you? I'm great, Chris. Thank you for having me.

Awesome sauce. And so we can see your great book that you've got behind there. Awesome sauce. And I've been reading it. It's a beautiful read. Just great, very descriptive. Thank you. It brought me a few tears as I've been going through the book. It made me cry a little bit, so I'll give you that. It's a book of the heart and caring and love. So give us your plugs so people can find you on the interwebs. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at MsBKB. That's M-S-B-K-B. I'm also on Facebook and LinkedIn under Brittany K. Barnett. There you go. There you go.

There you go. And you can order the book up on Amazon.com. You can also see all the great authors we have on there at Amazon.com forward slash shop forward slash Chris Voss. So what motivates you to write this book? You know, Chris, really my clients. I never in a million years thought I would write a book but we had a remarkable journey and they really encouraged me to put pen to paper and so once that was done I thought about okay what is the intention behind this you know I think in part I wrote it to correct false narratives about those most impacted by the war on drugs and just this whole media propaganda that

was onslaught in the late 80s that led to the enactment of the 1986 Anti-Drug Abuse Act. And so the other reason I wrote the book is for other young black girls like me from the South to have that representation. Growing up, I always wanted to be a lawyer. I grew up in rural East Texas with a town of about 1,200 people. But as I got older, I just never knew any lawyers. And becoming a lawyer started to sink out of my league. And I know that was because there were no lawyers in my small rural town. And there were definitely no lawyers who looked like me. And so I wrote the book as well to inspire young girls. And so give us an overview of the book, kind of a down-from-the-sky sort of view of what's in it.

Yeah, so the book details my journey, my childhood growing up in rural East Texas, having the challenge of a mother who was addicted to drugs and ultimately went to prison herself, and just how the proximity to those issues really helped me to be very well-rounded when it comes to the casualties of the war on drugs. Then it follows me through college and my career as a corporate lawyer working on mergers and acquisitions literally closing billion dollar deals by day and by night working pro bono to save lives of people who have been buried alive under draconian drug laws and it follows my work with Sharonda Jones very closely, who was a woman from East Texas, serving life without parole.

And her case just changed my life forever. And so was your mother's addiction and going to prison, and was that something that really drove you to become an attorney then? I would say not really, but I would say they really brought me proximate to be able to handle the issues for the criminal justice system. I went to law school to become a corporate lawyer and that is what I wanted to do. I had gotten a bachelor's and master's in accounting and became a CPA working for PricewaterhouseCoopers and then finally got the courage, you know, to go to law school. And I did that wanting to blaze this trail and climb the corporate ladder. And once I got there and in law school, I came across the case of Sharonda Jones. In her case, really opened my eyes to the system.

And because my mom had been in prison, I was very close and saw firsthand the devastation of mass incarceration on not just families but entire communities. Yeah. There's a thing in the book that you referenced that in your city during the 80s with the attack on minorities and stuff with the Reagan administration, you know, the drug war, technically, which was started by Nixon, which was designed to persecute minorities. acute minorities uh and uh you talk about how in i think in your city your county there was like 34 times the amount of of people that would go to jail for marijuana yeah in the rural east texas area i grew up in it was very blatant the disproportionate impact of aggressive law enforcement the laws you know just had on people of color and I just thought it was limited for a while you know to my little slice of of country east Texas until I got older and started learning more and saw this is systemic. This is nationwide. And so unfortunately, that 34 times rate that you mentioned, it impacts real people in real ways.

And I want to make it my intention just with the work that I do to show that we have to look beyond the numbers and see the heartbeats of the people impacted. it yeah and the other thing i took from your book uh uh your mama's financial aid package was cut as part of ronald reagan's austerity program that closed several hospitals in the area cut drug treatment programs child care initiatives education and daycare was no longer an option like a lot of people don't realize that when they cut these programs, they largely targeted minority areas. Reagan, you know, we've had several authors on,

and sitting on a hill, they talk about, you know, how Reagan used racism in the 80s and to gain power and persecuting minorities. And then you see the fall of this where people turn to drugs, people are struggling economically, they can't do their thing. And then, of course, the sheriffs and police departments roll in to make the thing even worse. Yeah, it definitely caused my mom to have to pivot

as she was putting herself through school with two little girls in tow, you know, and I think that people have to really feel and recognize just the impact that has or had, you know, on folks just trying to survive. Yeah. One of the narratives that I hear from a lot of people, and I know when I used to be a Republican, I used to have this, well, everyone can be successful. Everyone can raise themselves up by their bootstraps, and they'll cite, you know, random examples.

But when you grow up, I think when you grow up in impoverished neighborhoods, when you grow up in redlined areas, Jim Crow areas, that makes a whole difference on your outlook. It gives you a whole difference on what jobs and availability you have, et cetera, et cetera. There was a part that you talked in your book about growing up, I believe this was, this is in the city of commerce throughout the 60s the city of commerce was known as a sundown town any black person found on the streets after dark was in danger of being lynched this is in the 60s i mean god knows what it was like before that but you talk about the neighborhoods and growing up in some of these places and different things where, you know, it caused different issues in how you were growing up. In fact, I think there's another one that talks about the Jim Crow statues where your grandpa used to say that the general was built to look sternly at the black side of the town as a warning regarding where the town's heart lies, if there was ever any question.

So those different things really struck me as I was reading your book. Yeah, and it was things that, growing up, being raised there, we didn't pay much attention to sadly enough i mean the my high school mascot when i was in bogota was the river crest rebel it was a confederate soldier it's not anymore thankfully but when i was growing up it was and so even with these confederate statutes in our face every day you know back then we just didn't think much about it and you know i hear exactly what you're saying and i appreciate your openness about pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps you know because a lot of people think that way and and dr martin luther king jr said it best you know it's hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you don't have any boots.

Yeah. And that's the importance of, you know, what we've been talking about over the last while, Black Lives Matter, and realizing the systematic. And, you know, the more conversations I've been having, I realize how deep this fabric goes of systematic racism, repression, all this sort of things. And now we mentioned Martin Luther King. There's some books or some different data that Martin Luther King talked about that are in line with your book title. Can you expand on that some more? Yeah, for sure so my book is called a knock at midnight and it's named after the text of a martin luther king jr sermon titled the same and it was a time during this whole push to get

people free where the work starts to weigh on you you know Chris and it was a dark time of my life of feeling of putting in all these years of work and not really helping people achieve the freedom you know that we were pushing so hard for and during this time I was representing a man named Corby Jacobs who was serving life without parole or a federal drug offense, his first ever conviction, felony or otherwise. And he's serving time in a maximum security prison. I'm a corporate lawyer, you know, enjoying the fruits of my labor. But I'm dealing with this dark moment of a sense of disappointment and failure and he sent me a message with the text to the Martin Luther King Jr. sermon a knock at midnight and the text contains

a parable about a man knocking on his neighbor's door at midnight seeking bread and the neighbor doesn't answer and the man keeps knocking and the neighbor doesn't answer and the man keeps knocking and the neighbor doesn't answer and the man keeps knocking and really what king is talking about in that sermon is the three loaves of bread that the neighbor was seeking represent hope faith and love and the weary traveler at midnight knocking on the door seeking bread is really seeking the dawn and I knew I was going to write that scene in the book about how Corey Jacobs sent me this uplifting sermon during a dark time and so while I was writing the scene I listened to the sermon and I listened to it again. And I was like, wow, this is really the backdrop of our freedom journey. All of the knocking,

you know, years of people not answering the door, more knocking at midnight, you know, and in reality we were seeking the dawn. Yeah. And, i i asked eddie glad junior this i'm like are you and i going to be talking about how we still haven't listened to james baldwin or martin luther king uh or malcolm x uh you know 55 years from now again and so i'm hoping that we can get a lot of these issues resolved or we can start getting down those issues resolved and what things are going on now one of the features of features that you've been doing that's gained, you know, a lot of popularity was Kim Kardashian, and I believe working with you to gain the release of people. Yeah, you know, I first came in contact with Kim when she saw my client,

Alice Johnson had done a video for my.com telling her story. And it was so random because the video went viral and Kim Kardashian just so happened to be on Twitter and saw the video. And she was not only moved to tears, she was really moved to action to help Alice Johnson. And so I was a part of the legal team for Alice Johnson, who received clemency from Trump a couple of years ago. And that's how I began working with Kim.

And that case really opened her eyes to the system. And so, you know, thankfully she's used her platform to really raise awareness for the work that we are doing. And that has been very helpful. You know, people need to know that this is happening, that people are said to die in prison for, for drugs. Yeah. And I think in, in the young lady's case who uh who uh got released from prison uh she had been told that uh her family had been told that the only way she was going to leave prison was in a body bag i believe yeah yeah and that's what i don't think the general public understands or knows is that there's no parole in federal prison. So life is life.

And I just felt those life sentences in the core of my very being. It's the second most severe penalty permitted by law in America. You know, and so you had people like Alice Johnson or my client Sharonda Jones and Corey Jacobs sentenced to life without parole. They were serving the same amount of time as the Unabomber. Yeah, that's extraordinary, too. I mean, you just see it. There was a quote in your book that I had tried to save that said something about,

and I think it was one of your relatives or friends who said, basically, you guys have gone from slavery to the new way of persecuting black people or using the courts and drug charges and everything else. And I believe I read through her first, what kind of started her down a bad road, and she had a problem with addiction, gambling addiction, if I recall rightly. And she had a good job at FedEx, but evidently she got fired from that. And of course, once she got fired, you're besmirched with that. And kind of down the road, she went of trying to figure out how to survive. And, you know, one of the problems we

had from that area was they started closing a lot of mental health institutions, a lot of psychology things. You know, now we're kind of learning how damaging the drug war was and how instead of sending people to rehab and sending people, sending places to deal with their addiction, we just threw them in prison and threw them away, which is incredibly unfortunate and a horrible, horrible way to deal with these things. And when you look at the fallout, which I'm sure you do, and I hope more people as we talk about this think about this, you look at the fallout to the families, you look at the kids who grow up without their moms or their dads. You know, the one gentleman who was in the Wendy's parking lot was shot. He'd spent so much time away from his daughters being raised.

And so when he was confronted with the police again, he panicked because he's like, my God, I'm going to go lose more of my life. You know, he was on parole. I'm going to use more of my life where my kids aren't going to see me. And I'm sure that's one of the reasons he panicked. And so, I mean, people just don't realize how much this damages everything, how it just destroys. And then, of course, these kids grow up and they're left on the streets or left without parents, and then they turn to a life of crime as well. And it just perpetuates it and fills our prisons.

And that's why you look at our prisons, which, what is it? We have 4% of the world's population. We've imprisoned 25% of something or other. I forget the term. No, you're right on point. It's a sad number. Yeah. And sadly, when you look at the makeups of the people that are in there,

it's mostly minorities. So you sit there and you go, okay, well, we see what's going on here. It's just awful. So you became a successful attorney. You went through school and all that good stuff. The story is beautiful in the book, how you lay the foundation of going through it, leaving your sister behind. But, you know, there came to a point in your teens

where you had to save yourself. And, you know, that whole journey of what you have to do. I've dealt with addiction and seen relationships with addiction, so I know what that story is like. And it's heartbreaking. It's hard for children to go through. And then you become a successful corporate attorney, and you start getting involved with this. And what do you see

the future of this going to? Do you think that we can move, hopefully, with maybe a new administration to reforms? I'm hoping Kamala Harris would be someone who would help us get in reforms, maybe Susan Rice and stuff in more reforms like we had with Obama or Obama was trying to do. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Kamala Harris and Joe Biden do, you know, if they are the next administration. I deal with people every day who are literally set to die in prison for drugs. And, you know, no matter who's in office, we have this systemic problem. And I hope that people do address it.

It's past time. President Obama had the most robust clemency initiative ever. He granted clemency to more people than any modern day president by far. But there was a systemic issue there still, you know, and I think a lot of us looked at president Obama as our savior. I did too, you know, whether unrealistically. So, you know, he can't, he didn't create this problem, you know, he can't, he didn't create this problem, you know? And so he did

1700 people are free, you know, because of him, including seven of my clients. And so I think to move forward, we have to really start to reimagine what justice looks like, Chris, you know, I am beginning to get allergic to the word reform because when you're reforming something, you're just tinkering with the broken system. We have to transform the system. We have to completely reprogram our minds and brains to reimagine what justice looks like for us. Like, do you really want to live in a country where Sharonda Jones or Alice Johnson is serving life without parole in prison? You know, and so really questioning ourselves and learning about the issue.

Criminal justice reform, you know, is a hot topic. It's popular, it's fashionable. In recent years, you know know you see more and more celebrities and influencers and people talking about it and lots of change has been made but there's still so much more to go but even with how popular it is i'm so shocked and surprised even still at how little people truly know about how the system works it's it's true you know it's got that whole not my back it's it i think the problem with prison and prison reform and people think about policing is they have that whole not in my backyard sort of mindset

um you know we have they have this attitude that well you went to prison so throw away the key but hopefully now with black lives matter with uh um it's a horrible term defunding the police because it really doesn't speak to what they're trying to do and what it's about it's a it's a really bad pr term um but i think people are starting to get it or that's why people like me are trying to have these discussions so that people can have these thought expansions in your book um so that people can realize the systematic racism is there and how deep it goes. I mean, all the conversations we've been having, especially the last six months on the Chris Voss Show, with Black Lives Matter and the different aspects of what led us down this path

all the way back to Manifest Destiny and, you know, starting in this country and people's perceptions of white privilege and white exceptionalism and, you know, all the founding of America. I mean, it's 400 years of just a dearth of racism and repression and stuff that just has brought us to this moment that we are cracking badly, especially under COVID. But I think now you can really see. I mean, you look at the budgets

that are in the police departments, you know, I mean, the war on drugs has been failing for so long and more people admit, I think it was Erdman who admitted in the Nixon administration that they, you know, this is what they did to persecute minorities. They knew that if they went after drugs, they would be persecuting the blacks and people that were raising up against the Vietnam War. The whole thing was started for that very purpose, to put people in jail. And then, you know, same thing with the Clinton administration, with the three strikes rule coming down hard. I mean, now they've looked back and gone, well, that was bad. But, yeah, we fill these prisons with people.

We destroy lives, and then we destroy neighborhoods. We redline areas. You know, Jim Crow, we're seeing the statues come down. That's why I wanted to reference that in the book because it's a factor that we're dealing with. Do you think that with the defunding of police and what we're talking about, because we're already seeing some cities with the defunding of police and what we're talking about, because we're already, we are already seeing some cities do the defunding and start putting money into rehab for addiction, for drugs and things like that.

Do you think that we're, we're starting down a good pathway there, or do you need to more most likely? You know, I think the, the concept is important and the steps being taken are important you know what i do know is that even with the the funding the police there's still this whole as you mentioned systemic issue you know it's one of the reasons i i wrote the book too and what I really want readers to get out of the book is that I just want people to know the truths and really the truth about racial inequality in this country but also the truth about human beings that America is locking

up in cages on a daily basis and when you look at where my clients are, for example, their whole interaction and journey through the criminal justice system, it starts with police. And so it's all combined. It's all a part of a huge, larger oppressive system that we really have a lot of work, you know, to do on. and this is quite a moment we're in yeah and i truly hope as you mentioned you know we're not sitting here 50 years from now saying you know we should have listened to to dr king or malcolm x or or james baldwin as you said you know we we really have to take advantage of this moment. We really do. One of my biggest fears is that if Biden is elected, we'll go back to the Obama years where everyone was like, you know, all the racists went in the closet and everyone's saying Kumbaya again.

I mean, I was one of those people who is incredibly surprised with the rise of Trump, where I had friends that I thought we were all kum by eyeing and Obama and great were, you know, we didn't fix racism, but we're on a step toward progress. And, uh, and, and then to see them come out of the closet and you're like, holy crap, you're you, wow. Okay. You have some issues. Uh, and I'm hoping that we don't go through that. Like one of the things we've talked about in a lot of different books we've reviewed and authors is there's this pattern that we seem to go through this wave of presidents

and sometimes generational where we 10 years, one president's kind of good, you can actually kind of see it you can look at Johnson and what he did for black and poor communities and minorities and then you look at Johnson and what he did for black and poor communities and minorities.

And then you look at Nixon started the drug war. And then you go to Carter. Things seem to get kind of a little bit better. And then Reagan comes raging in with his huge racist agenda that he brought from California. And then, and then you see, what was it next?

Who came after Reagan? Man, I'm getting old. Bush. Bush, which, you know, more of the same there. And then you had Clinton that did the prison thing, but maybe there was a little bit betterment. I don't know. He did go after welfare and families and stuff.

But then, you know, you go back to Bush, and then you go back to Obama, and then you go back to Trump. You know, we just seem to be like, we just never learn. We keep having these racist closet events where everyone comes out. What are some other topics or aspects of the book that you want people to think about what I'm trying to get across, which is how my definition of freedom evolves throughout the book. You know, my co-counsel and I, we team up and we say we pick locks to human cages. You know, but the liberation heist is much more than just getting people out of prison. You know, one of the questions that I'm pond are released, that they're not just merely trying to survive, but they're in positions to thrive.

How do we get them access, you know, to capital? We have to find ways to really bridge that gap, you know, and I hope that readers will see that the true loss of mass incarceration is not just the lives stolen by injustice chris but it's also the brilliance and beauty that each person who's been locked up for decades could have contributed to this world you know we have to find a way to end the brutal cycle because our collective future depends on it yeah and it's interesting how how interesting how the powers that be in the capital that's behind us. You know, you have these private prisons now, and they're making, you know,

they're all about the money. One thing I was really surprised to find out early on when California was trying to go totally legal with the pot was the biggest funders of the lobbyists and and people who were trying to stop it were the prison unions and the prison companies and the police departments like i was like really surprised by that i'm like wait this totally make their job easier but then i realized it's all about jobs it's about money It's about the prison industrial complex that we've allowed to be built in this country. That's part of this attack that has been done on minorities. And so you still have to unravel all that stuff where, you know, it's just extraordinary to me because you're like wow

okay they don't want they don't want pot to be legalized because number one i have to let people out of prison then they lose jobs and then it makes it harder for racist cops to bust people up and put people in prison which you know let's run less of their rocks they get off. Yeah. And so you look at it and you're just like, there's a lot we got to deconstruct, rethink, and redo. There's a lot of work to be done, you know, and it can be overwhelming. It is for me, you know, and I do the work every day. And so for me, I had to find a specific niche within the system. I do a lot of work focused on women and girls in incarceration, as well as people serving this fundamental death sentence for drugs. And as you mentioned, you mentioned California. We have clients in prison for life for marijuana. I have a client,

Farrell Scott, and he's from Dallas, Texas, and he's serving life for marijuana. And Farrell says, I sold marijuana and got a life sentence. The people are selling marijuana today and getting a life savings. And it's so true.

It's so real, you know, and even you mentioned the three strikes law and people kind of retreating on it if you will i know the first step act passed in 2018 trump signed it it rolled back the three strikes law you don't get mandatory life anymore for drugs but you get 25 years which is still a long time you know but the but the problem with that, Chris, is what I don't think people realize is that portion of the first step act was not made retroactive. Wow. So you have people serving life sentences today under yesterday's drug laws. That would drive me insane

if I was in prison. I saw that. That would just, I've been heartened, you know, by states like California. I think other states have done it where they have made their retroactive release of prisons and stuff for people, especially under marijuana. You know, and like you say, I mean, California states,

Nevada, Colorado, I think up the West Coast, all have now legalized marijuana. A lot of states, I think, the West Coast, all have now legalized marijuana. A lot of states, I think, now have switched to it. You know, I started using marijuana recreationally because the vodka had just beaten up the old body way too much over the years. In my old age, aches and pains. And when recreational marijuana became legal in Las Vegas, I started taking it.

And what was interesting to me, I hadn't taken it up until that point because I really, you know, like my freedom. And I didn't really, I don't really get the drug much. I'd rather have vodka, but my body's just like, you can't do that anymore. And what was interesting to me was I quit. I started taking recreational marijuana, and I realized that I hadn't touched my acetaminophen, my Tylenol, for like six months, and I was using it for pain. I was using it for pain.

And that's when the light went on, and I went, this is why drug companies, you know, which are doing their own drug dealing, especially with what happened with the Oxycontin and stuff like that. I mean, those guys were drug lords. I mean, we persecuted drug lords in El Chapo for less activity, I think, than those guys' output. And so it made me realize why they don't want this drug to be legal. And probably number two, because it's great at persecuting people, which is probably what the real drug war is about. You know, there are countries like, I believe it's Belize. There's other countries in South America and around the world that they don't have a drug war.

Even like Canada has a place where heroin users can go shoot up and they don't have to worry about being arrested or harassed. And instead, they focus on treatment programs and help and assistance and everything else deals with addiction. You know, I had the attorney general for the pending attorney general for the state of Utah on earlier this year. And, you know, I made a point to him. I said, do you, do you understand that most people that go into rehabs or that struggle with addiction, many times they are, they've suffered some sort of sexual trauma as a child. And because of that, they're, they're trying to deal with that and make it go away in their head. And he was like, really? And I'm like, yeah, you should do some research into it. But this is why we need to try and help these people. because otherwise we just perpetuate the crimes, the damage and everything else.

And then we wonder why we have the issues we have today. Now, you're right. And we have to look back at our actions and really use that as a way to determine how we move forward. You know, you mentioned OxyContin, and, you know, we're in a horrible, horrible opioid epidemic right now. And rightly enough, people are looking to treat it as a public health crisis, you know, and get people help instead of incarceration. And that's so important, you know, but unfortunately, the crack cocaine epidemic of the late 80s and early 90s wasn't looked at that way. It was demonized and criminalized. And it wasn't looked at as a public health crisis. And it very much was, you know, and that led to users and dealers being locked up for exponential sentences.

And now we have to get those people free. Meanwhile, all the guys who own those drug companies are walking around pretty much free. I think there's a couple that have been arrested, but, you know, they just by their way had a thing. And we don't really look at the destruction. I'm hoping that this will extend, and I'm hoping, I was kind of actually hoping Kamala Harris would end up being Attorney General because I'd love to see her tear it up. You know, it's always fun to see her in the Senate hearings. I'm like, yeah, let's send her after everybody.

But no, it'll be great that she's in there as Vice President, and maybe she'll become, Biden's only said he's one term, so maybe she'll become the next President. But I think it would be good. One thing Trump did was he undid all the, I believe, I can't remember the name of it, but there were the contracts that Obama and Eric Holder would do after Ferguson would do with the police departments to clean up the racism. I think a lot more needs to be done, a lot more accountability. I do think they need to take away their ability to kill at will. I mean, you know, and we see the extraordinary, one of the most recent examples was a 17-year-old and then the young gentleman who was shot seven times in

the back. You know, he gets shot seven times in the back and it doesn't appear on the video, he's really doing much other than just trying to get back into his car and and yet you see the young kid walked by the cops who's white and and the cops like yeah he's white give him a pass and the guy's like i just committed murders and you just see it right there you're just like that is the problem and and why we need to address this uh in our society and we need to start working it's a long road, I'm sure, to do it, especially to undo a lot of the different things that Stephen Miller has done. But, yeah. So in the book, you talk a lot about the stories of some of the people you work with,

some of the success stories, what it's like. And I think it's good for people to understand what these people are like. Because when you see the young lady who was released who spoke with the RNC recently by Trump and Kim Kardashian and your guys' effort, she's a nice little old lady. I mean, who's she going to hurt? There was no, I mean, it was just morally and economically unjustifiable for Alice Johnson and many others to be spending the rest of their natural lives in prison. You know, do we really want our taxpayer dollars going towards locking Alice Johnson up for life? Do we really want our taxpayer dollars going to taking people, stripping them from their families and being positive contributors to society for life.

You know, I think that with the life sentences like I focus on, it just takes a special type of grace and dignity to carry a sentence like that and to wake up daily set to die in prison. And for my clients and what I try to articulate in the book is how even in spite of circumstances that will be unbearable for many with this life sentence, they remain so positive and encouraging.

I tell people a lot that I worked and I've helped free a lot of people, but at the same time, they are freeing me too. And it's just some remarkable, brilliant people that I have had the privilege and honor to represent. And I know that they have to be empowered, directly impacted people have to be at the center of any movement of any work surrounding them. And they have to be empowered to have a seat at the table and to be working to lead any efforts related to transforming the system. And I've had friends that have gotten caught into the system. Sometimes they did things that they shouldn't have.

They made a bad decision when they were young. One of the problems with the, in my opinion, with the parole system is it's so easy to get banged back. It's so easy to get pulled back. And the system actually perpetuates itself through the parole system is it's so easy to get banged back. It's so easy to get pulled back. And the system actually perpetuates itself through the parole system, in my opinion. You know, any sort of small infraction, any sort of, I mean, you can get pulled over, I think, for a traffic ticket and get banged back, if I understand correctly.

And to me, that's also part of the systematic racism, is it not? No, absolutely, Without a doubt. The system, the entire criminal justice system, from your first contact with law enforcement through your parole or probation supervision, it bleeds with racial injustice. it gets so frustrating at times because I see it so often and I see the heartache and pain and I see the destruction of mass incarceration. And you're right. Like you get someone, we, we have people, our clients, for example, they get out, they go to the halfway house and even some of the rules at the halfway house are insane. Like for a while they couldn't have

smartphones but they were required to look for a job but there were no computers at the halfway house but when they would go they would get these passes to go out and apply for jobs who's taking paper applications these days like nobody you know and so it's like they need a smartphone unless y'all are going to get computers in the halfway house they need smartphones to apply for jobs you know and so but then you have to apply for so many jobs you have to get a job in a certain amount of time but there's all these barriers you know to re-entry and my mom you know was on probation and parole when she got out of prison and i saw firsthand that you know and not

only these traps with probation but my mom couldn't even get an apartment in her name chris wow you know and with this re-entry and all the obstacles that we have in this country, it's just setting people up for failure. It does. It really does. I mean, uh, you, I, I would, I would see friends that got banged back on parole, um, for just minor fractions. I mean, if you don't get back in time to halfway that house, I think you bang back, like you say, there are things, but we don't, we don't give them support for jobs either. We're like, uh, we didn't train you for anything in the, in the prison except for license plates. Uh, so, uh, so go get that job there, or we might have to put you back. And you know, one of the things you have to do is when my friends will tell me, they're like,

yeah, when we have to go to a job, we have to explain it. And then, you know, prison for this and, and blah, blah, blah. And you know, right away, it goes right in the tubes. Um, one thing that may need to be done is, and maybe this can be done through investment or some sort of thing is to make some sort of segue job program to, to pull those people out when they get out and then put them through the thing. Do, do we need to create like a commission to, to relook at maybe getting, making the federal system.

So there is a parole system, maybe a federal commission or a state-by-state case commission that basically sits down with everyone that's in prison currently and goes, let's relook at these cases. Let's relook at the justice or the quote-unquote justice that took place on them. And is this person really an endangerment to society? Or what more steps would you advise on top of that? Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. There's legislation that's been introduced at the federal level

to introduce the very thing, to give parole back, you know, to give this second look. You know, I just feel that whatever commissions are set up or councils are set up to look at the system should be a diverse group and should include formerly incarcerated people you know and directly impacted people to really give true insight you know how do we transform this system how do we shift the paradigm and you know there's so much work to do there's lots of great places to start. We just have to keep going. Yeah. And sometimes if you bang back on parole,

you can pretty much go serve your full term and it can be just simple. And sometimes it's just your pro or agent. And I'll take this one for the team, but sometimes your pro agent just might be a racist and he wants to bang you back. I mean, they really do come around looking to bang you back. I mean, that's, it's kind of almost a power trip in some cases, in my opinion. Yeah, and your body is very subjective. Yeah. And I really, you know, more and more we looked at it and more and more there comes a realization that the problem starts with the police departments with racist cops with people with either either uh conscious bias or unconscious bias um and when they approach people they like you look at what the wisconsin sheriff i think it is has said uh about minorities

and stuff and locking people up talking about them them as their animals, I think it is. And you're just like, why does that guy still have a job? And so I think cities hopefully need to redo these budgets. We need to put more into mental health. You know, I watch, I watch cops a million times. I know how that kind of goes down. I used to love watching that show. And, and yeah, there's so many situations that they go to that really need, like, a counselor for, like, domestic violence. They need, you know, someone to come help for mental health, et cetera, et cetera. Like, all these families, you know, you don't need someone showing up with a gun and a domestic violence thing.

You need somebody to show up and go, hey, we need to put you in marriage counseling, and we need to figure out what's going on with you from a psychological basis. And instead, just sometimes, I mean, not every case is the same, but a lot of times sending someone in a gun in these high situations just make everything amplified with emotion. And, you know, it just takes it to the next level. And then suddenly someone's either dead or going to prison or something, you know, it just, it just takes it to the next level. And then suddenly someone's either dead or going to prison or something, you know, it just escalates the situation. And you know, that there are guys that are in the police departments, that this is how they get their rocks off. This is their thing. This is the, you know, they love this sort of stuff. And so I'm hoping that books like yours, people read, people learn from people understand the

humanity of what these folks are going through. These are human beings. And I think that's where we really lose ourselves in just thinking about, well, you know, the people in justice system, they must have done something bad, so they deserve to go to prison, and we're just not going to worry about those people. You're absolutely right. And you hit on one of the key points that I try to make in the book, and that's the human element. We have to look past the numbers and see the person, the heartbeat, and the human element is critical, but it's often ignored, though it's necessary to drive impactful change. And that's like one of the underlying key messages I hope people receive

from the book. Most definitely. Anything in the book we didn't cover that we want to cover before we go out? No, I think we touched on a lot of it. I encourage people to order the book and learn more and really get to know some really remarkable people and their stories in the book who were my clients and who are now free doing some incredible things. I mean, we all go through a life and I think we can, I can look back on times where I made some stupid mistakes. Maybe I did a little bit too many buzz drivings. You know, there are all sorts of different things where we make bad choices in life as human beings. And a lot of people just don't deserve to have their whole lives thrown away. And I think addressing the systematic racism feature of it is one of the most important parts.

And that's why I've been enjoying these discussions is I've had a lot of people say to me, wow, I didn't really think about what you guys were talking about before, but now I see how this weaves into everything and how we really have to start working hard and caring more about people and understanding what's gone wrong and making serious, strong changes. So hopefully this will engender much of that. I hope so. I hope so too. Because I don't want to be here 55 years.

Or through another Donald Trump, let's put it that way. So folks, give me your plugs one more time if you would, Brittany. Yes, absolutely. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at MsBKB, M-S-B-K-B. Or you can find me on Facebook and LinkedIn under Brittany K. Barnett. And I'm just super grateful for your time today, Chris, and absolutely enjoyed our discussion. Thank you very much.

I enjoyed your book so far. I'm about halfway through it. And like I said, it made me cry. It's beautifully written, the way you lay out the stories and everything. And I hope people read it. I want people to understand these things. I watched a lot of different research videos from your clients, and they're just wonderful people.

You can't imagine them being in jail. They're kind of like your grandma. And you're like, what? What is this? This isn't some sort of heinous criminal. I mean, you know, I've met people that are predators in life and stuff like that, like, what? What is this? This isn't some sort of heinous criminal. I mean, you know, I've met people that are predators in life and stuff like that, and they probably do deserve to be in jail. But when you realize what's going on in the background of this.

Anyway, guys, be sure to order Brittany's book. You can take and get it on Amazon. You can just search for it on Amazon, or you can go to Amazon.com forward slash shop forward slash Chris Voss. You can check it out there and order it up and all that good stuff. Also you go to the ECBPN

and refer to the friends, neighbors, relatives on the show so that they can take and subscribe to it. I definitely advise you to check it out, read it and hopefully petition your local and national

city councils and state councils, federal councils to make changes to this thing that's been going on for way, way too long. Thanks a lot for tuning in. Thanks for Brittany for being here and we'll see you guys next time. Thank you.