The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Age-Decoded by Mark P Ryall

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

Age-Decoded by Mark P Ryall What could possibly go wrong with the advent of CRISPR genetic engineering? This is the story of Nobel-winning genomicist Dr. Frieda Sengmeuller, who invents "age-decoding" – a genetic engineering method that stops human aging. When most humans are age-decoded in the year 2053, Authority leaders secretly use CRISPR to also remove people's "propensity to dissent". They fake Frieda's suicide, containing her for two centuries as she is forced to research "reverse-aging". Frieda's daughter Ximena teams up with Authority insider Tavon Brooks to try to rescue her. This book depicts the moral challenges humanity could face with the impending tsunami of genetic engineering.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi folks chris voss here from the chris voss show.com the chris voss com hey we're coming to you with another great podcast we certainly appreciate you tuning in be sure to subscribe to the podcast tell your friends neighbors relatives all those wonderful people to check out the podcast. It's going to be freaking amazing.

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Make sure you check that out as well. We have an awesome author today, all the way to us from our Canadian northbound neighbors. So it's going to be wonderful to have him on. We're going to be talking about his book that you can get right now on Amazon, Age Decoded. They Conquered Aging but Imperiled Humanity. Mark Ryle is on the show with us. And this episode is brought to you by our sponsor, ifi-audio.com. And their Micro-iDSD Signature is a top-of-the range desktop transportable dac and headphone app that will

supercharge your headphones it has two brown burr dac chips in it and will decode high-res audio and mqa files we're using in the studio right now i've loved my experience with it so far just makes everything sound so much more richer and better and takes things to the next level ifi audio is an award-winning audio tech company with one aim in mind, to improve your music enjoyment of quality sound, eradicate noise, distortion, and hiss from your listening experience. Check out their new incredible lineup of DACs and audio enhancement devices at ifi-audio.com. He recently retired from teaching economics at Royal St. George's College in

Toronto and Hillfield Street Fallen College, Hamilton. You might have to correct me on that when we get there. For a combined 24 years, his first love in high school coaching was always cross-country running. Mark's newly released speculative fiction, Age Decoded, is his first novel. He wrote it to educate himself and the world about the imminent to some of CRISPR genetic engineering technology. Welcome to the show, Mark. How are you? I'm great, Chris. Thank you. Awesome sauce. Awesome sauce. Give us your plug so people can find you on the interwebs, please. Sure. I'm a first-time author, so I actually don't have an author website. I guess I better

get going on that. But if people want to get to know me, if they just type in my name, Mark Ryle, that's R-Y-A-L-L, and go to Cora, I've got a big presence on there and they can really find out what I think about a lot of different things and look at my writing. And also if they want to look up the book itself, Age Decoded, they can go to most of your big retailers like Amazon, just type in Amazon, go to Amazon Books, and then type in Age Decoded. And there's a hyphen in there between Age and Decoded and they can find the book. Awesome, Sauce. Order that baby up, get a hold of it. What motivated

you to want to write this book? Yeah, actually, Chris, by the way, I'm so thrilled to be on your show. You're the man, and you got the show. Well, you're the man who wrote the book. I'm still working on my first one for the last 12 years. I just want to get that little... But thank you. I'm very

excited to be on. And congratulations on little, but thank you. I'm very excited to be on. And congratulations on your book. Thank you. I started writing it, believe it or not, about 11 years ago while I was teaching sort of part-time on the side, something like CRISPR genetic engineering was just popping up on the radar back then. But I heard CRISPR, what's that? Is that some garden tool you use or what is it? Something I do with my fries or something. Yeah, exactly. So, but I started reading about it. I thought this is intriguing. So maybe I'll read a little more.

I have a science degree, but I don't work in that area of bioengineering or genetics. I'm not a genomicist, but I did start looking into it. And then I thought this is a great topic. And I was also very interested at the same time. I'm a competitive triathlon. So I'm interested in sort of performance and aging. And I'm getting older now. You look like you're about 29, Chris. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Yeah. The older I get, there's more performance and aging. I'm in the 60 to 65-year-old age group for triathlon. And I'm pretty serious about it. I represented Canada in the world championships for that sport. And so I'm really interested in, you can see your, as you get older, you slow down and luckily it's all age group stuff. So they keep it fair. But so I was interested in aging performance, but also notice the stuff about CRISPR and genetic engineering. So my book

combines the two. It's That was my start. Yeah. So what is CRISPR? What does that mean or what does that entail? All right. So CRISPR, it's a method that is being used by geneticists to alter, change, even replace parts of the genetic code for any living species. So you probably don't want me to tell you what it stands for, but it's quite a mouthful, but it's a fairly new method. There was an Nobel Prize awarded to two of the prominent researchers in that. And one was from UCLA Berkeley, her name's Jennifer Doudna. And the other one was Emmanuelle Charpentier from Europe. I think she's from the Max Planck Institute over there. So they collaborated and they came up, they won the Nobel Prize in 2020. So just about a year and a half ago for their sort of not perfecting CRISPR,

but making it a lot better, a lot more efficient. And it's definitely a tool that can be used to alter the genetic code of any living thing. Wow. So this is one of those dry fryers that does my tater tots. Is CRISPR a good industry? We just had two Berkeley, I think the music department authors on today earlier. So is this basically say they want to remove maybe Down syndrome or some sort of other genetic defect out of the DNA code so that when you're born, you're maybe missing some of those things. Is that what that would entail? Yeah, there's potential with CRISPR to remove what they call germline cells, which is germline genes, sorry, which are early life things like right in the sperm or the egg or even the fertilized embryo.

Wow. And you can go in there with CRISPR and do things. But there's also, I find this even more intriguing, or just as intriguing as they can potentially use CRISPR on full-fledged adults to alter parts of their DNA too. What could go wrong? Which is probably the basis for your book. Give us an arcing overview, if you would, Mark, of your book. So my book spans the years 2050 to 2250, around there. So it starts out about 30 years from now and goes another 200 years beyond that. I do think, from what I've read, that they will find using genetic engineering a method of stopping aging. It probably won't happen in my lifetime,

but they do in this book. They find it in the next 30, 40 years. Now, that might be, maybe that's an exaggeration. Maybe it'll take 100 years, but there's a lot of very good research going on in the United States, Europe, Japan right now on this very thing. So in my book, they stop aging. There's a scientist, she's a heroine in my book. Her name is Dr. Frida Sengmular. She invents this CRISPR method of stopping aging. However, she's very hesitant. She's so brilliant, but she sees not just the scientific side, but she also sees the ethical side. So she's part of this group that looks at ethical and legal and social issues. And unfortunately, everybody's eager to get this thing going. Like this idea of immortality is just so alluring to

everyone. And it's actually pretty cheap. Everybody can go in there for 20 bucks and get it done in half an hour. I'm in. Yeah. I was going to ask you, would you go for it? I don't know. I'm on the down slope of the thing. Do I really want to be stuck being 53 for the rest of my life? It sucks right now, but it is only going to get worse. But if I could get my 20 year old self back. Towards the end of the book, I did mention it goes up a couple of hundred more years. They reverse aging too. Oh, let's, is that true? You're in on that one, right? You're in on that one. Okay. Anyway, so in my book, the Frida, Dr. Stengler,

she wins a Nobel Prize in 2054 for her CRISPR application to stopping aging. Most people go for it, not everybody, but they line up and they, most people get it done. And so what happens then though, is every good book has to have a scandal, right? That's a physical thing.

CRISPR can be used to change physical things. So I wanted to put in a physical thing. A lot of people think aging is a disease, so we've got to stop it. I don't necessarily agree with that, but so that's a physical. But I wanted to put in a psychological thing, too, because psychology is tied somewhat to your genetics. And so I thought, OK, how can I create a corruption, a scandal here? Oh, yeah.

When they go in to become age-decoded to stop their aging, I'll have the government, the authority is set up to do this. Also tinker with people's, what I call the propensity to dissent. That is their capacity to criticize. So unbeknownst to the people they have some other there's some other genetic tinkering that goes on too they become a little bit docile maybe yeah they don't know quite what's happened to them and it's tricky because actually just going back to crisper when you if you were to change a gene or part of a gene or several genes there are other human traits are very complicated

like something like intelligence probably goes across hundreds of genes there's not one gene that makes a person intelligent so if you do CRISPR something to a gene you might get an effect that you want like maybe stop old age but there's something else that gene is involved with too and you could have that so with something like propensity to dissent or even like addictive behavior or i don't know creativity is a great one those rates are very complicated and they probably are expressed across more many genes there's there's a game called jenga i don't know if you guys have it imagine i'm in canada and you have these little log blocks and you can build up as high as you possibly can. It's a game. And you pull out

different log boxes, you go up and then you put them on top. And I imagine screwing around with DNA is the same. Like you say, you pull out one thing, you think, well, we're just pulling it out, no big deal, but it might balance the whole other chain and have some traumatic effects, maybe. Absolutely. And as scientists, I'm trying not to be just negative with this book. The book is thoughtful and it's meant to educate people, but there's so many good things that are going to happen with CRISPR. I can throw out a couple of examples. They think that something like Huntington's career, which is a horrible affliction. I actually know of one family here in Toronto that is affected by that, that that is expressed in, I think, just one gene. So if they can zero in on that with CRISPR, they might actually be able to stop it even in adults.

And then something like cystic fibrosis. I also, I knew a fellow who had that. He unfortunately passed away as a lot of people with that disease did, as a young adult. They find that cystic fibrosis is a little like Huntington's. It's fairly simple, and it's a matter of two nucleotides being in the wrong spot. So a C and a G versus a G and a C, just literally the flipping. And there is a lab in Singapore right now that has just announced the ability to flip those two nucleotides. So there's stuff going on. I'm reading about it every week, there's stuff going on right now.

And it's incredible what they're going to be able to do for disease from maybe potential blindness to HIV, cystic fibrosis, Huntington's, Alzheimer's. It's going to be a tsunami of very positive stuff. But like with any new technology, like nuclear technology, when it came in, there are potential, let's say, unintended consequences that are bad and also potentially intended bad consequences, which is probably the worst part, bioterrorism or something like that. This kind of falls into what's going on right now, because there was a lot of people with viruses.

In fact, I just saw some news today that some idiot in our Congress was asking about tracking devices in the vaccines that we're getting and just crazy stuff that the bat crazy people appeal to here. And hopefully they can figure out a CRISPR gene to make morons smarter. That'd be good. I love my Moderna vaccine. I can call Bill Gates. Hey, Bill.

That's right. In a busy signal right now. But I love my Moderna vaccine. And if it's tracking me, I don't know. Hopefully it'll keep me away from stupid people. So this is the thing where, you know, the government's really not doing tracking and stuff. I always love how people are like, I'm really important. The government must want to track me.

It's you're unemployed, you're bankrupt, and you're living out of your van down by the river. I don't really think that the government, I don't really think you're the Illuminati's into you. But so there's that. But I think a lot of people, this is interesting how the government mucks up into it. Probably, does Mark Zuckerberg

put an anti-privacy chip in him too? Is he up to that? If you could have done that, that would have been a totally believable plot. People would have been like, is this reality or a fiction? That's another thing about my book. It's science fiction. But it's interesting. I was talking to someone about this yesterday.

If you took the top 100 scientists in genetics and threw them in a room and said, okay, tell us where we're going to be in 200 years. That's going to be science fiction too. They don't know for sure. It's all speculation. I'm just speculating with my book. And I had a lot of fun doing it.

But my goal is not to sell books. My goal is to educate people about something that I think is going to be a fundamental shift. In fact, the way I look at it is, Chris, is so far in history, men or humans have worked really hard to try to make the world better for humans. We've messed up on some things, but we've done a lot of great things like medicine and education and social services. Very important things to help people and help each other and make people not having to work 80 hours a week and get killed by this some disease and when they're 15 years old so we've moved along life expectancy and all that but that's nature there's the nurture and nature sorry that's nurture so that's nurturing helping each other man has spent most of our energy and progress trying to nurture each other and get better.

But nature is the other side of it. I don't know if you ever saw that movie Trading Places with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy. Yeah. It's nature versus nurture. And they have some fun with it. But those are the two ways we can impact each other. And genetic engineering, CRISPR, is crossing into nature. We're going to change the very nature of humans. We're going right through the DNA code and changing

the nature of people and the nature of humanity. That's the difference. Awesome. Do you want to tell us some of the other main characters that you have in the book? I think one really interesting character I have is this older fella. He's older than you and I. He's almost 80 years old. Wait, I'm old? And he's Buddhist and a very thoughtful person, but he went for the age decoding. So he got locked in at almost 80 years old. He's very frail. And he, I guess he, just trying to find the quote here. Excuse me for a second. Yeah, I think as you're doing that, I'll just riff here. You were talking about different things you could do to make the human nature better.

You're talking about what we've done a lot of good things, but we've done some bad things. One thing we really should decode is Canada sending us Justin Bieber. Is there any way of reverse aging on that one? Because you guys really sent us a, you guys really sent us a turnball there. We sent you some good ones, too. You did. You did. We have a lot of musicians who have done well down there. Yeah, Rush.

Rush does make up for Justin Bieber. If we could now just get Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson to run over Justin Bieber on the road somewhere, run him over with their car, then I think we'd fulfill the whole concept. I'm a big fan of Gordon Lightfoot. I don't know if you've heard of him. Gordon Lightfoot, yeah. The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Do I have that right?

Yeah. He probably has done well down south there, too. Yeah. Yeah, he did pretty well. Boy, we are old. Right now there's millennials listening to the show going, what the hell are they talking about? Shania Twain is from Canada.

Shania Twain is from Canada. Shania Twain. There you go. The Second City cast, the comedians that you guys brought down, John Candy. The list goes on and on. Some of those brilliant things. Why are people always trying to leave Canada? What's so awful about Canada that people always leave and come in here? Why do we have a good sense of humor living up here?

Because of the weather. The weather keeps us smiling and laughing. Hey, look, i found the quote so just for your audience to paint the picture this fellow's name is jesus even though he's a buddhist okay he converted from catholicism to buddhism he's a very thoughtful guy and he says someone he's talking to his granddaughter who i will quote a little later and jesus there's this idea of if you were immortal you're going to have so much time on your hands right are you going to be motivated are you going to have ennui are you going to want to eventually just kill yourself maybe still living until maybe you have an accident

or something that's it you know like an irony huh like i'm so sick of being eternal i'm going to kill myself yeah so here's jesus he quote, humans with so much time naturally avail themselves of it inefficiently. Anonymous once said, so he's quoting Anonymous now, quote, the thief to be most wary of is the one who steals your time. But now Jesus continues. He says, with age decoding, I believe it's the opposite. The thief to be wary of is the one who lends you too much time. They steal your humanity. Wow. That's powerful. That's powerful. Maybe I should quit working out. It seems like I'm stealing my humanity at this point. And those Big Macs have such great humanity in them. That's really interesting. Do you have any other quotations you'd like to read from the book? Yeah, well, so it's interesting because he, when they bring in reverse aging, he now, he's stuck almost at the precipice of death, almost 80 years old in rough shape.

But now they offer him each reversal, and he's debating whether he should go for that. Now that's very tempting for him, right? Because he can start getting younger. And he's got a granddaughter named Zaymana, who he looks after, because Zaymana's father unfortunately died. So Zaymana is 25. She's locked in at 25, as are a lot of people. So that's the sort of the sweet spot age that a lot of people go for if they get a choice. And so Zaymana, however, she lost her father and her mother is this Dr. Frida Singular,

who the government took her and locked her away. They took Frida Singular because she was objecting to the ethics. And they faked her suicide and took her underground and captured her. So her mother has disappeared. She thinks her mother has killed herself, but her mother is actually being captured by the government. And she's being looked after by Jesus. And Zaymana is having some, government and she's uh being looked after by jesus and zaymana is having some obviously she's lost her father so she is she's having some psychological

reaction to that obviously anybody would if they lost so many precious people and she has this condition where she it's not like self-cutting but she chews at her hand in her wrist does it in private always. Nobody ever knows. And when she walks around in public, she puts what she calls her healing glove on to cover it up. Anyway, this is a quote from Zaymana. This is the granddaughter of Jesus. Quote, here I sit, gnawing pathetically.

So she's gnawing on her hand. A sliver of one generation. Isolated. Infertile. Unable to relate or reach out. I'm stuck in one egotistical dimension. I'm alone. What's it like to nurture a baby, to bring up a child, to see a walk and talk for the very first time? What's it like to listen to a son or daughter tell stories about school and their friendships and to grow old, witnessing them mature into adults, companions and caregivers? What's it like to fully experience the cycle of life with loved ones?

I'll never know the joy of being a real mother like women were in the old days. If I did come to know it, it would come in some artificial way. Wow. It's interesting to me. Can you, in your book, can you reverse age below, say, your nephew is 25? You can go below them? Yeah. They actually, in my book, they had an experiment where they tried that with younger.

But unfortunately, it got out of control and the teenagers went back until they became like almost these broken up embryos. Holy crap. They couldn't stop it. So they went back to nothing almost. Wow. That's definitely interesting you go the wrong way and you die a different way basically maybe yeah um the interesting thing in my book too

is this i pointed the picture of jesus being really old and then simena being stuck at 25 if you would if you did have a genetic engineering used to stop aging, you would have a society where there wouldn't be a lot of new, new people born because they'd have to control populations. I have one more quote, if you don't mind. Yeah, let's do it. And this shows that divide between the young and the old.

So it's, it's not a soccer game. I don't know if you're a sports guy. I am. And my daughter played soccer. You go there, watch the game, but because you're so few young people,

what they do is they have the young people that do play, they're all, they're like an amazing phenomenon. So people go and pay to adopt a young person and be their pretend father or mother for just for the game. And so during the game though, the young people know that they're special and they know that there's not many old people left either because everybody's sort of 25 years old now i use the soccer game as a metaphor of the old and the young both who are really discounted in this future society so during the game oh and there's a graveyard near the soccer pitch that's important old graveyard soccer pitch people kids playing and they're like 10 or 12-year-olds. During the game, the old stones stood as one in the background,

not in opposition to the youthful game in the foreground, but as a subconscious set of spirits gathered to follow a beautiful game, to worship the lifeness and exuberance of the playing children, and to earn some respect in return. That respect came in the form of furtive glances from the young girls and boys in the direction of the playing children and to earn some respect in return. That respect came in the form of furtive glances from the young girls and boys in the direction of the stones, as if to say, we know you're there, we can see you, and we want to, and we very much know what you're about. At this boundary between the cemetery and the soccer pitch,

the old and the young, the two forlorn groups of Zone One whispered unified statements and made mutual offerings. Wow, that's poetic. It sounds like a great, beautiful book. Is it mostly, would you describe it as being realistic or crazy sci-fi or maybe both? I don't know. I would classify it as, there's a category of sci-fi called hard sci-fi or maybe both i don't know it's i would classify it as they call it there's a category of sci-fi called hard sci-fi or hard speculative fiction where you're trying to take the current

reality and just move it forward and actually almost a futurologist try to make it realistic so i'm not on some far planet somewhere with all bizarre things going on i'm trying to i'm literally trying to see where we're going to be in the next one or 200 years. It's a crazy guess. And I think for the readers, the best thing about this is I'm not trying to like, there's a lot of great books coming out right now. The Codebreaker by Walter Isaacson. And there's a book up in Canada. I'd like to mention one of our researchers up here from Dalhousie University, Francoise Belize. She just released Altered Inheritance, which is at Harvard University Press. Those are great books, but they're nonfiction. What my book does is it allows people

to learn about this stuff, but also really feel through humans, feel and imagine what it's going to be like. That's the difference with using fiction. Yeah, that's really interesting to think about. One of the things that makes life beautiful and valuable is the fact that it's finite and the fact that there's danger where you it can end any time or the fact that things can get taken away from you whether it's in my life it's been my dog all of a sudden sometimes it's a loved one sometimes it's a crisis that happens sometimes it's a loved one. Sometimes it's a crisis that happens. Sometimes it's a tragedy of environment or mother nature. And it creates this cradle of life where there's a fragility to it. And that fragility, I think, gives it an intrinsic value that I wonder if you would lose, and you probably explored this concept with your book, that you would lose because without being able to die, can these characters die under some sort of mother building falls on them or something like that? Yes, they can still have accidents. But still, if the one, the biggest things that hurts me in my life is the things that have been taken away from me, my father, my dogs,

my grandmother, my grandfather. And so once, if you could erase that loss and keep them around, I don't know, you might get more sick of each other too. Yeah, you can see. That's right. Certain people you may not want to be living forever. Did you just die already? Get out of my life. No, I'm just kidding.

You certainly ruin life insurance companies and policies. Yeah, actually, that comes up. I taught economics. I have some discussion about the business effects. Yeah. A lot of wives are going to be heartbroken over that one. I keep putting arsenic in his coffee and he's still alive. What's going on? So there's that. What sort of hurdles did you run into trying to publish this book? Sure. Lots of hurdles. The first thing I should point out, this is a self-published book. So

I promoted myself, such as doing this program. And 10 years ago, I tried to get it published. And maybe it was serendipity. I don't know, because I think it's better it came out now. But 10 years ago, I tried my best. I sent it to New York publishers, some in Canada, all across the United States. And it was just rejection all around. And I understand that I'm first time author. And also, I don't have a huge platform. And also science fiction is a very competitive, big and competitive field. So I understood and I put it on the back burner. But with COVID and retiring recently from teaching, my wife said to me, why don't you stop being a nuisance in the

house here and start working on that book you were she great very nice strategy on her part and i think let's update it and let's self-publishing now is much more viable let's give it a go and that's what i did so i'm it was great journey but there were a lot of obstacles um along the way yeah sure so would you say you wrote it recently or over the last 10 years then i wrote the probably about almost 200 pages of it 10 years ago, and then I added about 70 pages. I actually cut out a lot. I had an editor here in Toronto, a sci-fi buff, look at it, and he said, Mark, you don't need this.

So I probably cut out 40 pages and added another 100 pages. So now it's 260 or something. It's only an e-book right now, so if you get the e-book, it's going to be like, I don't know, it translates. It's more pages something it's only an ebook right now so if you get the ebook it's going to be like i don't know it translates it's more pages probably 350 pages ebook there you go do you see this do you see a second book coming with these same characters at all i think so i've actually i've learned in this book that humans are going to become more like, I hate to say it, robots. So there's been a lot written on robots becoming more like humans. I think to look at humans becoming more robots,

maybe I could call it convergence. Ah, there you go. Or you can't, I don't know. I'm thinking of that as a sequel. Yeah, so I've really enjoyed the process, and I'm definitely going to take another stab at it. Definitely. We'll want to take another stab at it. Definitely. We'll want to have people check it out.

Anything you want to plug before we go out on the book and what's inside? Yeah. So I just want to say, I want to be positive. I know that CRISPR, there's a lot of outstanding scientists working on this in this new field. And actually any young people, it'd be a great field to get into.

There's going to be so much activity there. So the book is more of a caution and it's an education and it's a little bit of dystopia. I don't want to give it away, but it doesn't end so bad. I'm a positive guy. So I want to just say the book is something for people to learn more about genetic engineering, maybe have a bit of fun with it, imagine things way out. And especially young people out there, middle-aged and young people, or even your older listeners, I recommend that they have, maybe their children or grandchildren, give it a read. I would say anybody over 15 years old could probably read the book

because those people will be living more of this than we will. So that's my plug for the book. It's good education and good fun. There you go. Give us the plugs on where people can buy the book and find out more about you. Sure. So the book's called Age Decoded, A-G-E hyphen decoded. And if they just go to Amazon or to Apple Books or any of the big retailers, if they type in that title for the book, they'll find it there. And if they go to Cora and type in my name, Mark Ryle, R-Y-A-L, I think I have a link to the book right at my profile there. And I answer a lot of Cora questions about aging and genetic engineering, but also questions about silly things like golf and some comedy things

and what's it like to be in Canada. There's a lot of topics I had fun covering there. So those two, those are the two sources that they can look up. There you go, guys, check it out. And Mark, thank you for being on the show with us and spending time telling us about your great book. Thank you, Chris. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you. And guys, go to wherever books are sold, your local bookstore, store seller, go and support them. Check out the book, Age Decoded by Mark Ryle. You can check that out. They conquered aging, but imperiled humanity, messing with DNA. What could go wrong? Who knew? Anyway, guys, thanks for tuning in. Go to youtube.com, fortune is Chris Voss at the bell notification button. Go to Instagram, LinkedIn, Fortuness Chris Voss, hit the bell notification button.

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