The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – All the Worst Humans: How I Made News for Dictators, Tycoons, and Politicians by Phil Elwood

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

All the Worst Humans: How I Made News for Dictators, Tycoons, and Politicians by Phil Elwood https://amzn.to/3LPfR1S A bridge-burning, riotous memoir by a top PR operative in Washington who exposes the secrets of the $129-billion industry that controls so much of what we see and hear in the media―from a man who used to pull the strings, and who is now pulling back the curtain. After nearly two decades in the Washington PR business, Elwood wants to come clean, by exposing the dark underbelly of the very industry that’s made him so successful. The first step is revealing exactly what he’s been up to for the past twenty years―and it isn’t pretty. Elwood has worked for a murderer’s row of questionable clients, including Gaddafi, Assad, and the government of Qatar. In All the Worst Humans, Elwood unveils how the PR business works, and how the truth gets made, spun, and sold to the public―not shying away from the gritty details of his unlikely career. This is a piercing look into the corridors of money, power, politics, and control, all told in Elwood’s disarmingly funny and entertaining voice. He recounts a four-day Las Vegas bacchanal with a dictator’s son, plotting communications strategies against a terrorist organization in Western Africa, and helping to land a Middle Eastern dictator’s wife a glowing profile in Vogue on the same time the Arab Spring broke out. And he reveals all his slippery tricks for seducing journalists in order to create chaos and ultimately cover for politicians, dictators, and spies―the industry-secret tactics that led to his rise as a political PR pro. Along the way, Phil walks the halls of the Capitol, rides in armored cars through Abuja, and watches his client lose his annual income at the roulette table. But as he moved up the ranks, he felt worse and worse about the sleaziness of it all―until Elwood receives a shocking wake-up call from the FBI. This risky game nearly cost Elwood his life and his freedom. Seeing the light, Elwood decides to change his ways, and his clients, and to tell the full truth about who is the worst human.About the author Phil Elwood is a public relations operative. He was born in New York City, grew up in Idaho, and moved to Washington, DC at age twenty to intern for Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. He completed his undergraduate degree from Georgetown University, and his graduate studies at the London School of Economics before starting his career at a small PR firm. Over the last two decades, Elwood has worked for some of the top – and bottom – PR firms in Washington. He lives in DC.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

There you go, ladies and gentlemen. There are ladies and gentlemen. That makes it official. Welcome to the big show We certainly appreciate you guys As always the Chris Voss shows The family loves you But doesn't judge you

At least not as harshly As your wife does Because you didn't do the dishes And you left that glass out today So knock it off Invite your friends Neighbors, relatives Go to goodreads.com

4chesschrisvoss LinkedIn.com 4chesschrisvoss Chris Voss won the TikTok And all those crazy places On the internet And as always The Chris Voss shows The family that loves you but doesn't loan you money knock it off people quit asking anyway guys we have an amazing author as always when do we not have

amazing authors on the show never so anyway guys 16 years 2000 episodes the latest author we have for you is phil elwood he's joining us today for his new book just came out june 25th 2024 called all the worst humans how i made news for dictators tycoons and politicians this is going to be fun because we're going to get in the dirt we're going to get into the we're going to get into the the the dirty side of pr i guess as it were we'll get into it. Phil Elwood is a public relations operative. He was born in New York City, grew up in Idaho, and moved to Washington, D.C. at age 20 to intern for Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. He completed his undergraduate degree from Georgetown University in his graduate studies

at the London School of Economics before starting his career at a small PR firm. Over the last two decades, he's worked for some of the top and bottom PR firms in Washington. There's a joke in there somewhere, top and bottom. He lives in D.C. Welcome to the show, Phil. How are you? Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Top and bottoms in politics. Who knew? Anyway, guys, Phil, give us a dot com. Where can people find you on the interwebs? You know, I have intentionally had kind of an absent presence from the internet. At one point in my career, I paid to promote the search engine results of another Phil Elwood. He was a dead jazz reviewer for the San Francisco Chronicle. And I did that to hide.

So, actually, I don't actually have a website. I have a company that I do consulting out of. Do you want to name the company or the link to the company? It's called For the Story. Eventually, it'll have a website. There you go. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's in your new book?

It's my first book. It's probably only. It's a memoir about the last two decades working in public relations or public affairs however you want to describe it working for some of the as the book title says worst humans on the planet and these it all kind of happened through happenstance but ended up working for a number of middle eastern dictators and interests and some israeli spies it's all very exciting the 30 000 that's the 30 000 foot angle there you go so you get into some of the some of the folks out there the dictators and stuff like that so you you give all the dirty details i guess in the book you flush out all the things you did

yeah there's one story in particular that kind of exemplifies achieving positive press results for a very difficult client. So this was back in 2009. And my client was the Gaddafi family. I was about to ask about that. Yeah. And so I didn't interface with the family very much, but I usually interfaced with the ambassador. And so I was summoned to the embassy one day, and the ambassador was to brief me on the fact that a national hero was going to be released and returned to Libya. This national hero's name was al-Megrahi. Now, I was familiar with al-Megrahi because I was alive in 1988 when he blew up Pan Am Flight 103, killing 270 people bound for the United States over Scotland.

And the first request from the ambassador was to describe what the media's response would be to the release of Al McGrahy. And I'm not sure what kind of language I can use on your program but shit storm or shit show one of the words I used to describe what was about to happen to us and that's exactly what happened it was so much so that the director of the FBI at the time a man named Robert Muller penned a letter to the Scottish authorities calling this a miscarriage of justice he actually used some much harsher language and so the instruction from the ambassador to me was to get a positive piece of press for the Libyans the week Al-Megrahi was released. Wow. A seemingly an impossible task. However, in my research about the Libyans, knowing about my client, I knew that there were three or

four members of Congress responsible for opening the door to Libya. They were a pariah state, a sanctioned state for a very long time. But these three or four members of Congress opened the door because the Bush administration wanted to use Libya in the war on terror. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, basically get the Libyans to kill Al-Qaeda for us. And so I went to one of these members of Congress who happened to be the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee at the time. And I said, I went to the congressman's staff and I said, you know, I drafted this letter that says, knock off the Libya bashing. We don't want to alienate them and lose them as an ally in the war on terror. And I got them to sign the letter.

I leaked the letter to a reporter at Politico who then wrote a story with the headline, knock off the Libya bashing. Now, the way I put it in the book is that I deserve whatever the opposite of a Pulitzer is for this particular piece of work. Oh, the Gaddafis. How shortly after that did everything go to shit where, you know? It was over a year, year and a half from that. So was this maybe one of the proponents of that? Maybe?

You know, I actually, you know, I don't point to this directly. I allude to this in the book, but I actually think it was his trip to New York that the media exposure he received that showed his people that he was a human being that could be killed. And that's exactly what happened. But we're getting a little ahead of ourselves because we've missed a very interesting step. And that's the visiting Vegas with Matasim Gad kaddafi oh yeah did you want to get that story or if that's in your book yeah let's do it yeah it's a it's a rather it's actually chapter three of the book and there it was the assignment i didn't know what the assignment was i mean a few things you need to understand i had never been to las vegas before in my life and i didn't know why i was going this time when they

when i got on the airplane to go to vegas i and they closed the aircraft door i received an email that said you know the instructions for the weekend and it wasn't that i was going to a conference it was that i was babysitting the 35 year old son ofammar Gaddafi. His name was Matassam Gaddafi. I remember this. And I was babysitting, I was to babysit him at the Bellagio Hotel. Now, he was the 35-year-old national security advisor of the country.

He ran his own military. And he had access to Libya's $60 billion sovereign wealth fund. Wow. So when he walked into the Bellagio, he walked in with the mentality of someone who could buy the place yeah no shit and everyone in it and so partying with this guy in vegas and his entourage i mean the email i got was just a list of demands i mean if you printed

this email off it would have been three four pages of just i want to buy escalades i want to buy harley davidson's i want to i want to go i want to buy jorts you know jean short yeah that's i mean you got to do that when you go to vegas i mean you own a pair i'm sure right i'm wearing them right now you're rocking the jeans of course i don't know why he wanted to see share oh you got to see share and somebody in the entourage i don't know why he wanted to see share oh you gotta see share and somebody in the entourage i don't know who wanted when it's a blow had to sort that out i mean there were all kinds of weird demands over the course of the weekend and then one of them was to arrange for a private plane. His date home to LA from Vegas. And as

with all of the other things we were billing them for, my employer, people who worked at my employer's company, were fudging the invoices a little bit and adding zeros and stuff. Adding zeros? Wow. And I was instructed to

get paid in cash for the invoices that I was giving them that were doctored. By the end of the weekend, I had about $60,000 in cash. Wow. I was unaware that it was totally legal to fly with

$60,000 in cash. I didn't know. You could fly with $100,000, no questions asked. I didn't know that. My co with $100,000, no questions asked. I didn't know that. My co-worker said, Phil, strap that shit to your body. Strap it to your body? Oh, wow. I taped $60,000 to my body to get through security

so that no one would know that I liberated this money from me. Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the strangest stories. And then I flew on a red-eye back to New York, sitting in

first class, in the first class cabin, with Flava Flav. Flava Flav! Flav was in rare form. He was quite active during the flight. Is that some substance of some type? You know, I'm not here to speculate, but yeah, probably.

He's running the Olympics right now, evidently. I think he just bought the women's swim team, evidently. Oh, yeah, water polo, I believe it is. Yeah, yeah, he just bought it or something. He's the main sponsor now. He's supporting the women's water polo team. He's got to get laid somehow, I guess. He and Snoop are really doing a lot of great things for the Paris Olympics.

They really have kind of taken over as the Olympic emissaries, haven't they? It's kind of, I mean, are they having to be drug tested? That's my only question. Absolutely not. Absolutely. Snoop would not. I mean, certainly the athletes have to be drug tested. This seems kind of unfair.

Do you remember when Snoop performed at the Super Bowl? Some media outlet, I don't remember which one, reported that he smoked marijuana before going on stage. I mean, that's like accusing Willie Nelson of doing that. Yeah, I know. It's kind of like, the more the acquisition of shock would be that he didn't. Yeah.

You're like, what? He performed without? Yeah. We should check into him, see if something's wrong. New dog operating on pure oxygen performing today. Yeah, that's right.

I was surprised he could run that Olympic marathon. Anyway, we digress. So, amazing stories in the book that are in shock and have fun with people. Let's get into your upbringing. Tell us about you. What got you into the PR business? You kind of alluded to it a little bit in your bio.

What got you down this road and why is PR kind of like your thing? Why did you go, yeah, I really like this? I mean, I assume you really liked it. I do. I do actively still like it an early aptitude for debate is the reason that i got into it i i kind of lost interest in school in high school and got really interested in competitive debate and you know we would I started traveling kind of around the nation when I was a sophomore, junior in high school and would go to debate competitions. This directly inversely impacted my grades because I didn't attend school very often, but it did get me on a scholarship to the University of Pittsburgh for a debate and which i promptly

had to a couple years later drop out of due to a drug problem ah and that's what comes from hanging out with flavor flight no this is long before i i connected with flight i just had to get that joke in there so it's kind of doesn't make sense but most jokes don't. It's okay. And, you know, dropped out of school, moved to D.C. to kind of dry out and went to work for Senator Moynihan and then eventually Senator Carl Levin after a slight infraction at GW. I was thrown out of George Washington University, too, and eventually graduated from Georgetown and then subsequently went to the London School of Economics for graduate school before starting a career in public relations. There you go. You've been through the ringer there. So you learned PR. Have you started your own PR agency through your journey? At one point I did, and I have recently done that again. The previous time that I started my own firm, I ended up working for the Israeli intelligence officers who had privatized their craft. And it wasn't a screaming success of a business, but it ended in a government investigation and the FBI coming to my house at 6.30 in the morning.

Oh, wow. That's always a great door knock to have. Hi, we're with the FBI. Yes. The opening line of the book is, when the FBI knocks, you are going to lose. You're going to lose. Never lie to the FBI, folks.

We've had FBI agents on before. You never want to lie to them because that's that's illegal right yeah it's legal they generally don't ask questions unless they know the answers exactly yeah so same with most people's wives anyway yeah do the wife jokes any other stories you want to tease out in the book that can get people to pick it up that are salacious did what what what let me you this, actually. Did you feel safe in publishing this sort of stuff and some of these stories? Do you feel like maybe enough time went by? Obviously, Qaddafi is not around anymore for obvious reasons, but do you feel a little,

were you apprehensive about publishing any stories that you put in the book? Yes. I mean, I was sure. was nervous uh because this is a it's a deeply personal story it it gets into it both my work but also kind of the mental impact that the work had on me uh so i i do believe that yeah there was some cause for concern but i don't i don't think that anyone's going to hurt me or anything like that over this i think it's all perfectly innocent you're gonna end up in the trunk of a car and and you know it's the whole scene from goodfellas basically you're in the woods and all that good stuff so there you go the The Israelis, that's got to be an interesting thing to do. They just got done whacking someone from Hezbollah and someone from Hamas all within a week or something.

They're out for blood. I haven't heard that was confirmed yet. Yeah, it is very interesting. I actually got mixed up with them because I was bored at my job. Because you're bored at your job. That happens to me on Fridays. I get bored and hang out with the third world countries that are, I don't know, does Israel qualify as a third world country? No.

No, it doesn't. I don't know why I said that. I don't know. So I just, I hang out with other third world countries except for Israel for the obvious reasons. I don't know what that means. There's a joke here somewhere. I don't know where it is i can't find it so i'm just wandering through whatever segue i've gotten myself stuck into and i'm trying to make it funny so yeah i just hang out with third world countries in my spare time now that's what happened to me is that i was

i was a little bored at my job and a headhunter out of London approached me and said, you know, would you go to work for this private Israeli intelligence company who has privatized what they used to do for the government? And they now deploy it for corporations and other entities. So I said, you know, yeah, I'd love to take the call. And I got to know them. they flew me over to israel hung out in tel aviv for a few days got to meet their staff and went to work kind of as their business development and public relations representative in washington wow and it involved doing a lot of very strange errands. I had to, yeah, I had to ferry documents around town,

create dummy email addresses that I only used once. This sounds like something that will get you a knock on the door from the FBI. Oh, yeah. And then they moved a bunch of money through my bank account, through my business account. Yeah, yeah. It just cost a million dollars to avoid being a regulator. Is this, I mean, this sounds like. Yeah, yeah. I just sold a million dollars to avoid a regulator. Is this, I mean,

this sounds like something that yeah, definitely gets you knocking on the door. Oh yeah. Oh, definitely. I had, I, I, it wasn't a total surprise. I had created a separate

savings account for myself with money for a lawyer in the event that I needed one and it turned out I really did. Yeah, it turns out that I really needed an attorney. Through one way or another, they got in the crosshairs of Robert Mueller's team, and so I had to become a witness in that investigation, which led to a chain of events.

And one of the most interesting chapters in the book, I think, is called Target or Source. And that is the point where I've been caught by the FBI, where I've been questioned by the FBI. 99% sure my name is going to get washed out in the media. So I have to try and protect my name. Like I said before, at the top of the show, I paid to promote the results of a dead man. I'm not interested in seeing my name attached to the Mueller investigation. So what I did was went to all of the journalists that I knew covering the Mueller investigation. Some of them were aware that I worked for the side group.

And I became an anonymous source to all of them. I struck an anonymity deal that said, look, I am not sure what these people are capable of, but I can say I fear reprisals. So keep me anonymous here, but I will help you write your stories about this subject wow and at the time muller investigation stories were in high demand in washington and i was able to work with some great reporters on some wonderful stories that kept my name out of the news there you go you reveal it the book is billed as you reveal all your slippery tricks for seducing journalists in order to create chaos and ultimately cover for politicians, dictators, and spies. So, industry secret tactics that led to his rise as a political PR pro. Is this a book that is largely targeted towards PR agents where they can learn some of the trips and

tricks of the trade as it were no it's not so much a how-to in that way it's a little bit much more like a pen and teller routine oh i'm trying to inform they're the comedians who ruined magic tricks yeah i'm actually trying to target the the-consuming public, anyone who picks a newspaper. Public relations practitioners, I think they'll enjoy the book because they'll relate to it more than your average consumer. But who I'm really going after are the people who consume news stories. want them to understand the mechanics of what happens how a news story goes from an idea in a conference room to a headline in all over the country like there is a mechanical process that i helped break down in this book about how news stories happen and it's i i you know it's a really unique look at the media from a different point of view. There you go.

Secrets of what goes on behind the scenes. Yeah, we've all seen like all the president's men and all of the kind of journalist expose movies about how the news is made from their point of view, but nobody's really taken a look at what about the heavily monetized point of view of the people talking to the reporters? Yeah, yeah. I don't think people really understand the back end of everything between lobbyists and PR agents

and how much money is involved in shaping opinion and all that sort of good stuff. I don't think the average American is aware of it. Maybe they don't care, really. They got more things to do than they can handle now as it is. It is definitely happening in plain sight. And one of the things that, you know,

this book is a number of extreme examples of foreign countries seeking to buy influence in the United States. And I think that's, I mean, that's one of the alarms that I'm trying to raise with this book is, hey, you know, there are foreign countries with agendas that we don't really understand that are news stories that are helping you know one story we haven't talked about yet is the world cup story so my client at the time was the qatari government and this was 2010 and they were ambitiously seeking to host the 2022 world cup at the time espn said it made more sense to play the super bowl in a lake than it made to play the world cup in qatar and they were right it did

but so it's a long shot bid so my job is not to support the qatari bid. My job is to go negative on the American bid. Which is expressly forbidden by FIFA's rules. So if anyone from FIFA is listening, I should probably be banned for life from working on a FIFA-related campaign because of this transgression. It's okay with me if they do that.

Alright. It's a terrible organization actually it's horribly corrupt but really fifa no way come on man yeah not kidding i've heard things yeah you should watch united passions it's amazing they made a they made a puff piece movie about themselves and still came off looking corrupt i think everybody who worked at the olympics back in the day eventually went to fifa i don't know the The IOC, FIFA, kind of yin-yang. And so my job was to go negative on the United States' bid. So one day the U.S. Congress, in their infinite wisdom, passed a resolution supporting America's bid to host the 2022 World Cup.

No surprise, right? This enraged my client. So they called my boss, and my boss called me and he said i told them that you would get a resolution introduced into the u.s congress opposing america's bid to host the world cup and i said that's impossible i i can't do that and he's any my employer said you know i said it you make true, and he hung up on me. So I went to a bar. I went to a bar, and I was sitting outside at this bar on 17th Street in D.C. called Fox and Hound.

And I'm having a drink, and this group of school kids walks by, and they're all morbidly obese. And I was like, there's my answer. And so I got a cocktail napkin and a pen and i wrote a resolution that said the united states government would not support bids for any international games world cup or olympic until we fully funded physical education programs in public schools oh wow and then i reached out to a lobbyist buddy of mine and i had him get a member of Congress to agree to introduce it, or at least to confirm to a reporter that she did. And so I leaked the text of the resolution to a reporter at Politico, again, got them to confirm with Congresswoman's office that it was

real. And he wrote a story with the headline World Cup versus gym class. Now, here's the thing. There was a lot of rivalry going on during this cycle. And so I can't say that I switched a single vote with this prank. However, what it did was provide cover to absolutely every voter who voted for Qatar because they could say not even the U.S. Congress wants to host the game. Wow, that's powerful. Right. So when you're trying to influence 22 people, it was supposed to be 24 FIFA voters, but two of them were banged up for bribery. And so 22, you're only trying to influence a universe of 22 people. So all we did was print off dozens of copies of this article and distribute it around in Switzerland to the voters and say, you know, deliver the talking point. Look, the United States funding for infrastructure for the World Cup for the infrastructure of the World Cup could become a political football.

Qatar, the Emir determines how the money gets spent yeah they ended up spending 220 billion dollars on the games holy crap all for less than 5 300 minutes of soccer and during the games this is the kicker This is why it went from a prank to a human rights issue. Yeah. During the building of the stadiums, the Qataris said always that only two people had died building the stadiums. Then on the eve of the games, they put out a press release saying, actually, it might have been more like 500. Holy crap. holy crap then american human rights organizations put out a press release saying actually it was much more like 6 000 people died building those stadiums jesus it's like a war of pr agents was that true or is that another pr agency

i'm sorry was that another pr agency doing that war, or is that true? I'm not understanding the question. I'm sorry. The notice of the 6,000 that came out, was that true, or is that another PR agency? Because it seems like there's just PR agency wars going on here between one. No. PR agency wars going on here between one... No, I tend to believe international human rights organizations and observers like Amnesty International

and Human Rights Watch. Those are the organizations that have weighed in on the number of dead in Qatar because of the games. Now, Qatar, I do not... Their data is not reliable

really it seems like they would be no no there was actually there was a bit of a controversy I'm not sure how widely this has been reported but there's a rule in Qatar that if the temperature is above

a certain degree the workers don't have to work. But the government lies about what the temperature is. So it doesn't matter what your thermometer at home says. It matters what the government's thermometer says. And so it's always a few degrees below that threshold where the workers have to work. Yeah, it's pretty bad. I think my girlfriends are trying that trick with me. I don't know what that means, but yeah, it's like we need to adjust the

thermometer in the house. Anyway, fun is fun. Great stories, interesting stuff with all this, all these data and things going on. What do you hope people gain from the book when they come out of it? My first goal was to entertain. I want people to have a good time with this. I want to make the reader my accomplice. I want to put them in the passenger seat as I drive the getaway car away from some of the bigger scandals of the last 20 years. And the other thing that I want readers to get out of this is a heightened sense of media literacy. I know that may sound boring, but when you read a news article,

and it's so much more important these days that there are so many different actors trying to influence our news coverage. I mean, just think of the foreign powers that we know are trying to do it. Russia, Iran, China, you know, these aren't small adversaries. And so I want people to read things with a critical eye. I want them to, you know, seek out credible news sources that are vetted with editors and things. I mean, you know, when you hear people say,

you just can't trust the New York times or the wall street journal or the Washington post. And you kind of can actually compared to the rest of everyone else. Yeah, dude, you met on 4chan who has a hell of a YouTube following. You shouldn't trust that. What?

No, you're't trust that. What? No. You're sure? I'm really sure. I'm really sure. Yeah, it's interesting the choices people make. I was watching, I was watching, there's some guys on TikTok

that interview Trump supporters and some of the sources they cite for data are just extraordinary. And it's half the time they can't remember where they saw it, but they're really sure about it. It's just extr extraneous stuff like post-term abortions where you're just like wouldn't that be murder like how do you you really think that's happening in california you know this weird shit like that or you know jfk things or you know he's still alive or whatever

remember when everyone was down at the bridge in in Dallas waiting for him to return as president or whatever? Crazy ass shit. Yeah, and then you've got pillow salesmen. Oh, yeah. And it's going to get worse here coming up with AI. It's probably going to get even harder to determine what's bad PR

and what's good PR and real and the truth, really, when it comes down to it, I guess. Yes, deep fakes are an incredibly scary innovation i think that i think that should be resisted and rejected in my profession personal i also think hacking is something that should be very rejected and policed a little better there you go. Maybe there needs to be regulation on it. Maybe.

I mean, you probably couldn't regulate it because then you'd be regulating free speech, right? It'd be like, but it wouldn't make it past the SCOTUS. Yeah, I like to say that my profession is the unintended consequence of the First Amendment. The unintended consequence of the First Amendment. That's good. I like that.

I like that. You know what? I mean, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? People should pick up your book and read it. Give us sydney.com if you want people to find you on the interwebs before we go. I don't have a website, but please, you can look us up on Instagram at alltheworsthumans. There you go.

All the worst humans. There you go. Thank you very much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Phil? there you go thank you very much for coming on the show we really appreciate it phil thank you thank you very much for having me i really appreciate it there you go and thanks to ord min dr matthew i'm all for heightened sense of media literacy bravo so very entertaining so to speak words with friends i don't know what's going on about there so there you go thank you very much or Thanks for tuning in, everyone. Order up the book wherever fine books are sold. You can pick it up right now. All the Worst Humans, How I Made News for Dictators, Tycoons, and Politicians.

Sounds like an excellent read with a lot of fun stories to it. Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschristmas, linkedin.com, 4chesschristmas, christmas1, the TikTok, and all those crazy places on the internet. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time.