The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Assassin’s Manuscript by William J. Carl

Episode Date: February 24, 2024

Assassin's Manuscript by William J. Carl https://amzn.to/3ULkv6G When former CIA assassin Adam Hunter’s last hit goes awry, he attempts to leave behind his world of espionage and murder by embarking on a career in ministry. But soon, he is pulled back in to crack a code hidden in an ancient manuscript in order to foil a terrorist plot. In the meantime, Renie Ellis, a lawyer in the small town he’s moved to gets caught up in his dilemma and falls in love with him, not realizing he killed her fiancé by accident. What will she do when she finds out who Adam really is? The heist of a famous Codex from the British Museum, Papal intrigue in the Vatican, both Sicilian and Russian Mafia, and a US President who knows more than she admits all play key roles in a story that keeps the reader guessing until the end, a conclusion that no one sees coming. From Rome to Jerusalem, from Egypt’s Mt. Sinai to Tennessee’s Smoky Mountains, the characters scramble for their lives, racing the clock to prevent an international disaster.

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We always have the most amazing authors on the show bringing us their latest books and their writings and teachings and everything else, and entertainment as well. Today we have William J. Carl on the show with us today. He's the author of Assassin's Manuscript that came out in August 22 of 2022. There you go. There's a lot of 22s there.

There you go. He's going to be talking to us about his latest book and what's gone into it. He is a PhD, and he was once a pastor, seminary president, professor, and U.S. Senate guest chaplain. There you go. He's also a Greek scholar, award-winning screenwriter, playwright, poet, and lyricist. In his recent publication of Assassin's Manuscript, he is now the author of a thriller. He earned his PhD from University of Pittsburgh in Rhetoric and Communication. In 2013, he was given Pitt's Golden Medallion Award as a distinguished alumnus and was named one of the 200 most influential leaders out of 300,000 living alums globally. Welcome to the

show, William. How are you? I'm great. It's great to see you, Chris, and great to be on your show. It's great to have you as well. Give us your dot coms or any place on the internet you want people to find you on the web there. Sure. I have a website called LeConte Publishing, and that's named after the iconic mountain here in the Smokies of Tennessee, L-E-C-O-N-T-E, and then publishing.com. It's an interesting site. It's not a traditional publishing company. I have lots of mentors, writers, artists, lots of people who can help those who are trying to do all those things.

And that's the main one. I'm William Carl on LinkedIn and William Carl author on Instagram. But, you know, that's pretty much it. There you go. So give us a 30,000 overview of what's inside your new book. It's a Dan Brown meets Daniel Silva thriller, basically. So you're combining Jack Ryan and the name of the Rose or you're, or Jason board, excuse me or Jason Bourne, and all the kinds of books that are Indiana Jones

type stories. And yeah, that's pretty much it. I can tell you the background and the log line, but that's the kind of book it is. If you like Dan Brown and you like Tom Clancy, you put those two together and that's what Assassin's Manuscript is. There you go. We've had, I think, all the Tom Clancy authors you put those two together and that's what Assassin's Manuscript is. There you go. We've had, I think, all the Tom Clancy authors on the show except for Tom Clancy because he's really hard to book these days. I don't know why I'm making jokes about a man's death, but we just had Mark Greener on the show last week for his new book. And Mark, his first book he read was a Tom Clancy novel, and he ended up writing several of the Tom Clancy novels, even after his death. So, yeah, people love these books.

I mean, they're hugely popular. People love spy and all these stories and thrillers, et cetera, et cetera. In your book, it doesn't seem to be a typical American-era terrorist spy story. How is yours kind of different than those? Most of the Clancy and other kinds of books like his, Jason Bourne, Robert Ledlum type books, have the Americans as the good guys and wherever, the Arabs or whoever else are the bad guys.

And I wanted this to be more nuanced. I wanted all my characters to be broken and flawed so that there aren't just good guys and bad guys. We're all a mix. And I don't remember which writer said it, but I love this quote. There is good in every evil person and evil in every good one. And so what we have is the Americans aren't all purely good and the others, the terrorists aren't all purely bad.

So yeah, that's what I told my mom when she wrote me out of the will. That's good. That's what we do here on the show. The jokes. Yeah. You, you wrote this differently than in that format to give it that sort of

special stand apart edge. Also, it's a beach read with literary depth in this sense that the main character, Adam Hunter, Adam in Hebrew means humankind. He's in search. He represents a violent humanity out of control in search of peace. The main female character, Rennie, R-E-N-N-I-E, which is short for Irene, and that's the word for peace in Greek, is the only one who can complete his mythic story. There's a problem in this because earlier, before the book started, he was doing his last hit in Upper West Side, New York, and it went bad. And by accident, he killed doing his last hit in Upper West Side, New York, and it went bad. And by accident,

he killed his own wife. He killed the terrorist's wife or girlfriend, and he killed the fiance of this woman named Rennie down in Tennessee. So he comes close to her, and she begins to get interested in him, not knowing that he killed her fiance by accident. So it's a very unlikely romance. But the literary depth is there because this follows Joseph Campbell's Hero of a Thousand Faces, you know, behind the Star Wars movies, where you have a major character who needs to leave ordinary world, go to extraordinary world. And he has to decide, and he meets with his mentor and in yoda and those stories and he has a shadow stealth which is darth vader i have all of that going on in here but i never say those things specifically it's it's under underground there there you go yeah there

you go now you've written i think was it seven other books, I think? Eight. Eight nonfiction books. Yeah. There you go. And so, were those in the same vein or venue of these? No, because I've been a seminary professor and more clergy, those are in the more religious level. But one was a set of lectures I gave at Princeton and it's been translated into Korean and reprinted and all that. But that's all fiction and I can roll out of bed and write fiction. It's easy for me. Non, excuse me, those are all nonfiction, I should say, and I can roll out of bed and write nonfiction. But fiction is really hard. It's so different.

Yeah. You have to develop characters and that's it you know all the stuff and yeah i i i we have so many great authors like yourself that write thrillers novels and stuff and and i really i'm jealous of them because you know my books is non-fiction it's boring as hell and it's been these stories of my life and crap i couldn't even make up other than living it but you know when and it was very easy to write because it's like you know i lived it but you know where you guys can create whole worlds out of out of thin air and character development and plot lines and all that sort of stuff um from nothing i mean it's just it's just incredible that you guys have that talent skill that you do it.

So in line of your other books that you've written previously, what made you want to go this route with this book? What drew you to this writing the story and telling it? Okay. It was Alex Haley, the author of Roots, who was sitting in my office one day and I was going to have him speak at something we called the Town Hall Forum. And he said, have you written anything? And I go, yeah. And he said, let me see one of your books. So I pulled that set of lectures off

at Princeton off the shelf, and he started thumbing it. The author of Roots is thumbing my book. And he says, he looks up and he says, Bill, you need to write a novel. I go, what? What makes you say something like that? He says, two things. One, you know how to write, you write really well, and you know how to tell a story. And that's how I got started. And I said, what kind of novel should I write? He said, what do you like? I said, oh, Tom Clancy.

He said, I like that. And I go, I don't know anything about that. He said, mix that with old manuscripts, because you're a Greek scholar, and do research on the espionage side, and it'll all come together. And that's what happened. And 30 years later, Chris, and 12 revisions later, it finally is published, which is kind of amazing. It took that long.

So it took you 12 years, did you say? No, 30 years. 30 years, right. And 12 revisions. Wow. Because I say on interviews like this or meetings with book clubs that, you know, writing, great writing, great stories, novels, screenplays, poems are not written, they're rewritten. That's why you need a great editor yeah Stephen King and one of his books on writing says to write is human and to edit is divine and you got to have somebody who's going to help you be

able to tighten the story which happened to me and preserve your voice as well or the voice you want to have in the story that's a good point about the voice. I think that's excellent. Yeah, when I was finishing my book in 2021, I needed an editor, and I had found one that knew me really well, and so they could write in my voice or make sure that my voice stayed in the text. And I never really understood what a big deal it was. I'm just kind of, I don't know, whatever, it's editing. And I had two friends that did editing, and they were both women. And I'll get to that point in a second.

And they're like, hey, we're professional editors. We'd like to do the editing. And I'm like, here's a page or two, and show me what you got, and let's see what this whole editing thing is about, whatever. And they wrote it, and could hear the the voice change from masculine to feminine that's why i mean they were women and you could hear them i mean it sounded like them and they were my friends that were women but it sounded in a woman's voice in their vernacular and and i was gone like and i never even understood how important it is that that

the preservation of that voice is i was editing whatever they're putting the commas in the right place and you know but i learned it's a it's a whole different game and when i read what they wrote and they you know they're they're brilliant people they wrote good stuff but you know i was gone my voice was gone it didn't sound like my story at all it sounded like their story and i was like holy crap i get that so there you go. Now, are you going to wait another 30? Is there any follow-up to this book? Are you going to wait another 30 years? You know, a sequel to this would be really wild. But I want to make one other point about the editing. When I first wrote it, it was 740 pages. So I carried this giant manuscript

into a literary agent in Texas, and I dropped it on his desk. He said, you nearly broke my damn desk with that thing. Go back and take 200 pages out and I'll look at it. Now, that was like killing your babies, you know, pages. But a friend who's also an author said, learn how to write screenplays and then you can tighten the story. So I did. I took screenwriting, and I even entered some screenwriting. I won the Telluride Indie Fest screenwriting contest with a romantic comedy, which is a totally different kind of story from

this big swashbuckling espionage story, and that helped me tighten the story, the dialogue, the description. It flies now. It's very fast-paced. Yeah. And another person who was an editor for me is Charles Cornwell, who taught English at Davidson College and is the former husband of Patricia Cornwell and her editor through all her books. He was my editor through all 12 revisions. And finally, after the 12th revision, he said, it's masterful.

Get it out there. I couldn't have done it without Charles Cornwell, I know. There you go. There you go. Yeah, that's interesting. Learn to do a screenwriting thing. We had somebody on the show recently who they wanted something to be, they wanted to write the screenplay for something and their wife went,

no, you should write the book. So there you go. I guess you just have to find what works, really. They're totally different media. And I even turned the screenplay where I won the screenwriting contest into a play that was done at a regional theater in Alabama. And it was a totally different kind of writing. I mean, in, in screenwriting,

you show in, in playwriting, you, you say, you, you, you have dialogue that carries it. And in musicals,

which I'm trying to turn it into now, you sing. Oh, you're going to turn into a musical, huh? I've got the idea of it. I've written some songs for it and such, because it's a story that cries out to be sung because the emotions are so deep in it. It's

about a matchmaker who finds out she's dying of cancer and tries to match her husband with someone before she's gone. And I've known actual women like this who've said to their husband who are dying and they say to their husband, listen, if you marry that floozy down the street, I will rise up and haunt you. I know who you should marry. That one might be good and bad, but this will be a better wife, yada, yada. So this woman is a matchmaker. She's like Hyacinth Bouquet on Keeping Up Appearances, the British comedy, just driving the story.

And she does match him with her hospice nurse, not realizing that they were lovers in college. The audience knows, but she doesn't know. And the moment they fall in love deeply again, she finds out she's going to live. How do we unravel this dilemma? It's called Maggie's Perfect Match. It's Maggie's Perfect Match. Anyway, but that's a totally different story from assassin's manuscript okay which is a lot of you know there one reviewer said i look forward to a sequel to see any characters that dr carl didn't kill off in the first book because there you know there's a lot of stuff going on. The main logline is former CIA assassin becomes a minister in the

South and then gets pulled back to his world of espionage and murder. And he has to crack a code in an ancient manuscript to prevent a terrorist plot and an international disaster. And I had to interview real hit man to be able to write this story. And so that was an experience in itself, just being three Americans, one Israeli and one Russian. I don't know if you want to hear the story of how I met him or not. Please do. You just set it up. So now we got to follow through. Okay. I'm an extrovert and I walk into a restaurant. I don't know if you ever do this, Chris, walk into a restaurant and I walk around to booths and tables and go, is that good? You know, to the people who are eating and they look up and like, I guess, you know, and family backs away. We don't know him, but it's outcomes assessment. I want to know

about whether the food i don't want to just look at a menu so i start meeting people and i meet them easily and i want to learn about them do you always do that when you go in a restaurant not always every once in a while when it's one where i don't know much about the food and i just do the check-in yeah they have an help app you can download for that yeah i know I know. That's right. I could use Yelp. I'm just trying to help. Yeah, that's helpful. I appreciate that.

That way people aren't like, what's going on? Who's this guy walking up to our table? You know what I do? I just walk into the back, and I go up to the counter that has the food that's waiting to go out, and I just stick my finger in whatever and take a look at it, maybe go back for seconds. I usually do that with the desserts so yes you're right that is funny so one of one american that i interviewed was a taxi driver in kentucky and he had picked me up at midnight and i said where are you from

he said new york and you know a cup of coffee you know and, I said, when'd you come here? After NOM. What'd you do at NOM? I was in the Phoenix Project. That's assassins. So I said, you got to pick anybody else up? No. And I said, if I cross your palm with a hundred dollar bill, can we have a drink and you can tell me stories? Heck yeah. And so we sat down and he started telling me what it was like killing people. Another one is the son of a hitman who was a philosophy professor at a college, and he didn't know until his dad was on his deathbed that that's what he used to do. Wow. And he was the regular Little League dad in the neighborhood.

And, I mean, these people are like, be your next-door neighbor, you know, and they're cold as ice. Another one is a librarian at a seminary. Wow. They're like, be your next door neighbor, you know, and they're cold as ice. Another one is a librarian at a seminary. Wow. I knew librarians are killers. You can always tell those guys are murderers, man. Well, this guy, I mean, he said there are countries I can't even go to around the world.

Wow. And so I took notes. Another one was an Israeli running a tennis tournament. My older son was playing in and he I found out that he had been with Mossad in Israel. And I said, which unit? And he said, the Kidan unit, K-I-D-O-N. And that's Hitman. And I said, you need to tell me some stories. And he did. He opened up. These guys want to talk it's amazing yeah so he said i had arafat in my sights twice but the order never came to take the shot crap yeah that's what i was thinking too and then a russian former russian mafia chief who's now a pastor up in the ural mountains who's killed a lot of people but now he's a pastor. And I got him to tell stories. So I had to- Are we a pastor? Yes. Think about it.

You better pay your tithing when that hat goes around. That's right. Yeah, you better pay. Don't trust the priest, man, and confessions. People will ask me sometimes, you know, in book clubs and such, is this book autobiographical? You know? Yeah, there you go. Former assassin becomes

a minister and i smile and pause and i go you know all writing is autobiographical there you go really wonder there you go yeah so i can see i didn't kill anybody there you go i can see that pastor when people go in for confession they're like like, hey, Reverend, I sinned. I stole a candy bar today. And he's like, is that all? I killed people, damn it. What the hell, man? Up your game, buddy.

I have never heard that analogy. I can see that whole scene on SNL. That's a great one. I did have three years of Taekwondo karate as an extracurricular course in seminary to handle rough parishioners. You know, I'm like ready, ready for it. What's going on in your church, man?

Yeah, no. Church is over there. Yeah. We had a wonderful, wonderful congregation in Dallas. But, you know, every now and then, you know, one of those ladies gets a little out of hand. She gets a little too up into the spirit and starts dancing and speaking in tongues. And you got to throw holy water on her. The power of Christ compels you and stuff.

There you go. There you go. The whole thing. So other questions I had on this. How do you manage to keep the readers in suspense all the way through the end? Yeah. So I'm very bored when I read. I'm very easily bored, right?

And if you don't grab me, I can pick up a book at a bookstore. And if you don't grab me with the first line, I'm probably going to put the book back up on the shelf or in a library. Because I'm bored easily myself, I don't want to bore anybody else. So my goal is to grab people from the first line. I also like James Patterson's very short chapters. So I've got short chapters with hooks at the end of each chapter. And characters that are interesting.

And then a plot that makes you, wow, I've got to see what happens next. And I will drop little hints along the pathway to say, you know, look, look at this. You got to, you got to read more to find out what's going on. That keeps it a page turner. And it makes a great beach read, as you mentioned earlier, because you, you're like, I got to find out what happens next. And that's right. You turn in the page.

That's right. As it were. So there you go. Let's see on your, did you actually travel to all the seven nations you depicted in the novel? I did. Yeah. James Michener is one of my models. He always does lots of research, or maybe he has a lot of graduate students who do a

bunch of it for him. I don't know. I don't have all that now in retirement. But he always went to places and would describe them in detail. Now, I think he describes them in way too much detail because you just skip over and I want to get back to the story or the dialogue. So that's where I had to tighten because I did travel to all these countries and all these places. The only place in the novel I didn't get to was the papal apartment where the Pope is. And I knew two people who knew the Pope very well,

so they described it to me, but everything else in the novel, in all these places, Moscow, London, Jerusalem, the Sinai Peninsula, St.

Catherine's monastery. I mean, everything. I went to all those places. There you go. And so, yeah, I mean,

I don't know what to put. I don't have any Pope jokes for that room. Maybe, maybe he was killing people. And I don't know what to put. I don't have any Pope jokes for that room. Maybe he was killing people. And I don't know. I'm not going to get that killer preacher out of my head now. I can see him in the confession booth. People like, I sold some candy. And he's like, is that all?

Yeah. You know, it's in the Bible itself. If you think about it, the Apostle Paul was murdering people before he got converted. And so it's right in the scripture itself. Yeah. Good for Paul. Was he the guy that got the head cut off? No, I don't think he got beheaded.

There was somebody who got beheaded and they had the head run around because, I don't know, that's what they were into back then. That's what we do around Fridaysidays around here so there you go um your book looks at a conflict fictional look at the conflict in the middle east it was published before the israeli hamas war yeah do recent current effects impact your views in the future of that volatile region well, I would say that my answer to this is I'm not a political commentator. I'm an author, and I don't want to step into a landmine of what side is right and what side's wrong. I do have a vision, a bit of a vision about peace at the end of this novel, but you'll have to read it to see how it plays out and how it compares to what's actually going on. There's a bit of life imitating art, art imitating

life going on for sure in this kind of book. And the first part of it is the fact that this book starts with the robbery of a famous artifact from the British Museum in London. And if you've been watching the news last August, there were articles in The Economist, The Guardian, Wall Street Journal of artifacts being stolen from the British Museum. And so here it is, it starts with this, the very beginning of the book is the robbery of a famous old codex that's a real live codex that was discovered by St. Konstantin von Tischendorf. Konstantin von Tischendorf was a real Indiana Jones guy in Germany. And so there's a lot of life imitating art in different ways, but I really stay away from making comments about the Israeli Hamas situation,

other than to say the word Hamas in Arabic actually means violence. That's the meaning of the word Hamas. And the other interesting thing is the word assassin comes from the word Hashish in Arabic. The hashishim were those assassins a thousand years ago in the castle of Ulamut who were paid by this old guy to go out and kill crusaders. And then he would give them hashish,

you know, and he'd have some women for him, them and all that. I was on a show the other day and the interviewer says, what? Wait a minute, you mean assassins are the original stoners? I'd never even thought about that. I never even thought about that. But that's the root for the word assassin. There you go. Get stoned and kill people. It's Fridays around here. So there you go. go but yeah people love this intrigue and and everything else i like how you traveled to all the places i we have a lot of great authors like yourself on the

show and they always tell me that you know they pick places to write about that they like to go vacation at and so then they then they can tell the publisher so hey i need to go to france so that i can you know right do some study, some on the ground research. So this is basically your first novel. Is it hard transitioning from a nonfiction to fiction? It is. As I said earlier, nonfiction is easy for me, even though I'm trying to write so I get your attention and keep you all the way to the end.

But this is really about characters. And what's fascinating, Chris, is that the more I wrote, the more I realized I was beginning to get to know the characters. I don't know if you've had other authors say this on your shows, but I felt like I could actually hear them talking to me. It sounds like I'm hearing voices and such, but no, they would say, no, that's not how I would say this. Really? Yeah, or they would say, no, that's not what I would do in this situation. I would just be like, then you're right.

Why am I doing all the work here? That's right. But they really helped me. And one of the main characters, there's an old mafia don from Sicily named Vicenzo Mazzini, who wants papal absolution and knows he won't get it from the present Pope. So he's going to try to get the present Pope knocked off. And he literally, as I was ending the writing of the novel, I could just almost see this guy rise up and said, don't you understand that so-and-so was my, and I don't want to give away what he was, but it's like it opened a story up for me in an amazing way. So you really got to know how to write characters and you've got to write characters

that people will care about. And one of the things I learned about in screenwriting is that every character needs to want something. There's a want. The original Rocky movie, Sylvester Stallone wants to go the distance. He doesn't want to win the fight, get the title. He wants to go the distance. And if you watch, that's what happens in the movie. He loses at the end, but he goes the distance. What the author does is set up obstacles for each character getting what that character wants. It takes time. It takes a lot of time to figure it all out. There you go. So anything on the horizon for a second book then? I have a couple of wild stories. This one's wild enough. Related to this, and Adam, it could be like a sequel, but it would start with the robbery of a radar buster plane on Whidbey Island up near Seattle.

And this is a powerful plane that can knock out all the communications in the Eastern seaboard. And I would have a terrorist steal that plane and get things started that way. That would be a little crazy. Yeah. Do you think you'd carry over the characters? Maybe, you know, like we were talking about Tom Clancy and a few of the other writers in that genre,

they usually have like character threads where, you know, there's like Jack Ryanyan yeah jack ryan right i've had a lot of people say wait a minute i didn't want this to stop i want to hear more what's going to happen to adam and renny and the the carry the key characters and so i i think it would be easy to carry them over i just got to get the right platform for it there you know you, writing, I was speaking at an event recently and I titled my talk, Wordslingers and Story Weavers. We writers are the muses of the world, whispering in society's ears, better ways to think and better ways to live. And it is a challenge to create a story. As you said earlier, Chris,

that's a big challenge to figure out a plot that is out of nothing, you know, then it makes sense and then it keeps people's attention all the way to the end. That's what a lot of reviewers say. And this book's on sale now in 42 countries and just popped up in the harvard bookstore of all places the other day there you go nice it's on sale in the maryville college bookstore down here in tennessee and the harvard bookstore now there's a combination so there you

go so you're doing well with it and kicking butt and it sounds like it sounds like there's going to be some demand to you know get more stuff i mean that's the people love these books and they love the characters well the other thing i think about is learning myself how i know how to write screenplays but how to write a netflix series because this cries out a lot of people going we see it on screen already as we read it and it cries out to be a series, not a single movie. You know, our actor son in New York was in a George Clooney movie, The Tinder Bar, with Ben Affleck, and he was in the final season last summer of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.

His name's David Carl. He did the narration of this novel, Assassin's Manuscript for Audible. And it's already selling really well because he is an expert in international accents and he also brings his acting training. And when you listen to David read this book, it's almost like you're hearing a movie, you know? And he studied at University of Evansville and Rami malik was one of his buddies you know who at evansville who won the oscar and all that and there you go david's making it in new york hopefully we'll have you back to with your second book to to you know create the thing or you know if you write a whole different thing a lot of authors we have on the show they write a

lot of these types of books they they sometimes have different character veins. Right. You know, like they have Bob. Bob's doing this one. They do like 10 or 15 books. And Joe, their other character is over here doing 15 books. Sometimes they'll do one book and then hop to the other. So hopefully you're on a great course with your book and all that good stuff.

Any final thoughts or pitch as we go out? Give people your.com so people can find you on the interwebs. Yeah. LeConte publishing.com and the books, assassins manuscript. And it was a lot of fun writing it. And I think a lot of people are having a lot of fun reading it. And I look forward to, to hearing more about what people think about it.

There you go. Thank you very much for coming on the show. William. We really appreciate it. It was great to be with you and I hope you have a good evening. Thank you. You too. If you think there's something else for tuning in, go to goodreads.com, 4ChessCrispFoss,

LinkedIn.com, 4ChessCrispFoss, CrispFoss1 on the TikTokity, and all those places on the internet. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe, and we'll see you guys next time.