The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast BadVR CEO Suzanne Borders at AWE Show 2019

Episode Date: May 28, 2019

BadVR CEO Suzanne Borders at AWE Show 2019 See them at AWE Show 2019 Booth #527 badvr.com

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Of course, everywhere on every podcast platform there is because you know you never can have enough of the chris my show anyway i gotta tell you we're doing some amazing things this week we're going to be at awe in santa clara california the awe show and this is going to be their 10th annual AR and VR conference. You may have heard of this. AR, it's augmented reality, and VR, virtual reality. And this thing is finally hitting its stride. Magic Leap is getting really huge and kind of emerging as a leader in the technology. And there's all sorts of really great companies that are out there that are utilizing all the different vendors in the AR and VR space.

I shouldn't just play favorites, but, you know, it does seem that they're doing a great job. But there's all sorts of different vendors that are out there making their businesses surrounding this technology, building platforms and different services that are going to accentuate. And eventually these products are going to become an everyday part of your life. And it's kind of where the future is coming. So, you know, I don't know if you're like me, you like kind of see in the future. So this week we're going to be at AWE on May 30th. You can go to their thing. There'll be 7,000 attendees, 250 exhibitors, 300 speakers, and 100,000 square foot expo for, I think, let's see, three days in Santa Clara.

So if you haven't got your tickets, be sure to check it out, and you're going to meet some wonderful people. And today, we're going to be featuring one of the probably coolest people you're going to see there. And let's talk about who they are. Bad VR. We're going to be talking about the CEO, Suzanne Borders today. She's the founder. Bad VR is the world's first immersive data visualization and analytics platform.

Bad VR brings data into high definition, making it easier to discover and identify hidden problems and opportunities. They help businesses make better decisions faster. They're based in Marina del Rey. Wow, that's a beautiful place, I got to tell you. And the rapidly growing tech startup has attracted industry attention with its pioneering AR and VR demos, allowing people to quite literally step inside their data.

That's what I like to do. I like to step inside my data, wander around, look at it, check it out, go, whoa, check out all this data, whoa. Suzanne Borders, she's the CEO and founder of BadVR. And it's going to be great to talk to her about this business she's built and some of the things that she's done to make it happen. The world's first immersive data platform, she led the product design and UX at 2D analytics companies, including Remind, Crexie, and Userve, or Oserve, I should say. Suzanne is a recipient of Magic Leap's Independent Creators Program Grant and a previous winner of Zillow's Zip Code Product, or I'm sorry, Public Data Hackathon.

Passionate about the intersection of design, she is, and immersive technology and data. She finds inspiration and travels 75 countries and counting. Whoa! She could probably read a map, I'm pretty sure. And is a published poet. Wow. So we've got an artist and a brilliant entrepreneurial mind. Welcome to the show, Suzanne.

How are you doing today? I'm doing fine, thank you. How are you? Awesome sauce. Wow, man. I mean, I probably can't find half the countries you've been in on a map because I'm an American, but, you know. Well, you know, I'm sure you can identify the states. So, you know, that's most of the way there.

I'm not even sure I can do that. I went to public school, so I'm not sure. No, I'm just kidding. Welcome to the show, Suzanne. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Give us some plugs as to where we can find Bad VR on the inner tubes. Yeah, so www.badvr.com, five-letter URL.

We were able to snag it. You can find us there. We are releasing an app on the Magic Leap platform called C-Signal, so you can also find out information about that app at www.csignal.com. And you can find us on Twitter, BadVRInc, and on LinkedIn, BadVRInc. And you can find me personally on Twitter. My handle is Suzanne Porters. Awesome sauce.

So follow Suzanne on the interwebs there so you can take and see all the cool stuff that she's putting out. I mean, obviously, you guys must be doing something really cool because you guys have been awarded a grant by Magic Leap, and they must love what you guys are turning out for them. Yeah, yeah. We've been very happy to work with Magic Leap on our app, C-Signal, and in general, building our immersive data visualization platform. It's been great to have them believe in our vision of bringing data to immersive spaces and our goal to democratize insight. So it's been great to have their support.

So let's talk about you. How long would you start this company and what motivated you to do this? Yeah. So we got started about a year ago. We're very brand new. We're babies. What inspired me to do this is kind of a complex story. So when I was a kid, I was actually born out here in California. I was born in San Diego, but I moved to the Midwest. My father graduated from UCSD Medical School and got a job in Kansas City. So I was moved to the Midwest when I was six, and that was a huge culture shock. And so I didn't really get along with anybody in Kansas City. You know, my parents were not Christian. They were like Buddhists,

hippies. My dad didn't wear shoes. My mom, you know, didn't shave her armpits. So I got made fun of a lot. But my outlet for that was watching Star Trek, The Next Generation, and as something called the holodeck. And for me was you know this like north star like i really want that and and someday that's going to be real i want to be able to you know step inside this room and go anywhere in the world and see anything so i've always been fascinated with the concept of virtual reality as it relates to the holodeck and you know throughout my career as a product designer i've always worked with data and primarily with two dimensional data visualization analytics tools. So during that process, you know, I had this idea of bringing my passion for the holodeck in with the data that I was working with and thought, well, what if I could step into a holodeck?

And instead of just showing me a different place to show me a different place, what if I could be shown a world and each part of that world would be data driven so that the experience itself would become the analysis. So instead of having to, you know, set aside my time to perform a data analysis, I could just step into an environment and have that environment inform me in intuitively and naturally about my data. So that's what really inspired me to do it. And my time at Remind in particular,

working with really large, complex nationwide data sets and coming up with visualizations that an average real estate agent can engage with really made me understand the limitations of the two-dimensional screen and just really inspired me to push past those by adding multiple dimensions so that's sort of awesome sauce sorry thank you how how many people were inspired by the star trek series i grew up watching as a kid and uh i thought it was really cool you know it's

like amazing you see stuff and you're like that would be really nice and i believe the i somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the guy who invented this cell phone, the inspiration was the flip or what was it? The thing that, you know, I don't remember the name. He used it to call into the beam us up. Yeah.

Sort of thing. And I think if I remember correctly hopefully I'm not becoming insane in my old age wait I already am insane that flip sort of aspect and the fact that you could have something that small to communicate I believe was the inspiration to people who made so it's really cool

you know Star Trek kind of was this vehicle that was kind of like the people who were it. So it's really cool. Star Trek kind of was this vehicle that was kind of like, it's kind of like the people who are musicians who saw the Beatles on whatchamacallit for the very first time and went, holy crap, I should become a musician. That series inspires so many technical entrepreneurs to, and what's really great about that is

what you're coming from is the vision of what could be, the potential of that and the positivity of what could be, you know, the potential of that and the positivity of that and seeing that happen. So I imagine you went on this journey of, it sounds like you worked for several different companies. Yes. Yes. And so you went through these companies, learn the trade, learn the business, you know, got, got your feet wet on, on stuff, probably did some intrapreneuring as i used to call it when i worked for other people as a kid uh where i was basically an entrepreneur in training if you will um and

fortunately i had some at least one good ceo who who said yeah you know we need to give this kid some extra leash and see what he does and of course then i left the country company started my own. That's very familiar. I've been through the same. It's funny. I've had opportunities. I actually have turned down jobs at Disney, at Google, at Yahoo way back in the day.

I've always wanted to work at startups for that very reason. I wanted to be immersed in it because I feel like, you know, being an entrepreneur, you can't really go to school to learn that. Of course, you can go to business school and some schools have these like dedicated entrepreneur sort of programs, but I don't think that it's really something that you can teach without having experienced it. So I have frustrated my parents to no end where I get all of these amazing job

offers. And then I take the one at the smallest company with the least amount of pay. And they're like, what, why do you keep doing this? And for me, it's the opportunity to be with, you know, to work on in a company where I can work alongside a CEO, or I can report directly to a CEO at a larger company, you never get that. And you really have to be, you're sort of focused on into becoming very good at one thing. So, you know, as a product designer, I'm sure that it had I accepted that job at Google, I would have become a really, really, really good product designer. But for me, that's not the goal. The goal is to own my own business. So I feel like I'm a proficient product designer. Now I want to learn all the other skills that I need to know, or at least know, or learn what I don't know. So I can then be successful at running a business. And as you said, too, you know, I've been able to find some amazing mentors, people that have taken me under their wing that have, you know, really helped me define what it is that might the path that I want to take to found my company have made introductions to investors. And I would not have, I feel, gotten that same experience had I worked at a larger company.

So there's definitely a strategy and the reason. A lot of people do make fun of me sometimes. They're like, oh, well, why do you think that, you know, you have the credentials to start a company? You never worked at a large business and you didn't go to the right school or whatever. But, you know, I always counter back to that is, you know, I have been able to experience the startup life and the entrepreneur life without having actually been a founder before because I've worked at all of these small companies.

So they have actually given me value in the long run in getting me one step closer to my ultimate goal and vision of being a founder. That's an awesome analogy. I mean, if you would have looked at Steve Jobs in his early days, I was definitely had definitely had the chops when it came to understanding computing. Steve was mostly just a seller. I mean, any, the one thing I've loved about being an entrepreneur all my life and you don't really realize it. I don't think until you step into it is it it gives you self-actualization oh yeah punishment level that you will self-actualize

yeah well the what you know i you go you go uh uh oh man i don't want to be responsible for all this uh how about that oh crap it's. There's nobody that's backing me up. It's all me. And you learned the power of self-actualization, and it's all you. And the buck stops here, and you got to grow up. You got to learn everything. You got to do everything, especially in the beginning.

Oh, yeah. I mean, even when our companies got to the point of having up to 100 employees, I still would tell people I'm the CEO in Janet because they'll pick stuff up around the office. I feel like you don't really learn that unless you've been there. People and that was my biggest fear, accepting a job and a nice company with a lot of, you know, benefits, like, I never want to be dependent upon somebody other than myself for my own livelihood, my well being, you know, it's that personal responsibility is a big aspect of what drew me to entrepreneurship, being able to own myself. And if I fail, it's because I, I failed, you know, I don't want to fail because of somebody else, I want to fail

for my own, you know, benefits or win for my own benefits, but I don't, or because of my own, you know, strengths and weaknesses, I don't want to be sort of tied to other people to be successful or to fail either way. So that you have a very good point about personal responsibility and self actualization. If you have any sort of thing in your mind where you try to weasel out of taking responsibility, then entrepreneurship is definitely not for you because everything's your fault, no matter what, all the time. Even if somebody else did it, you're the boss. So it's ultimately- The buck stops there. You hired them, they screw it up. You set the rules, the environment, the company and everything else. It is it is a trial by fire. And to what you were saying earlier, you know, people are asking, you know, what qualifies you to do this?

That's part of the trial by fire. What's the word I'm thinking of? That's part of that. And that's that's what makes you an entrepreneur is being able to get through that fire, being able to fight yourself. I remember the deepest part of having all of our companies was 24 hours a day, you live being an entrepreneur. You don't even understand what being an entrepreneur is until you're an entrepreneur because you live it 24 hours a day i would dream every night about what i was going to do like the next day at business i'd be dreaming about okay what do we need to negotiate this meeting which employee do i need to you know whatever whatever's going on like every now and then i dream about something that wasn't business and i wake up in the morning and be like wow that was nice and dreamt about something that wasn't business and I wake up in the morning and be like, wow, that was nice and dreamt about something else. I think a great example of this is it's Memorial Day and you and I are both here.

We're both here. We're both working. Our worship folks in an entrepreneur. Much honor and sacrifice to our soldiers who gave their lives. But entrepreneurism is one of the freedoms that they gave us and the ability to build our company and do what we want instead of working under communist servitude or Hitler, for that matter. That wouldn't be working out well. I mean, I've traveled a lot, and I've been to Russia.

I've been to a lot of communist and former communist countries. And, you know, my grandfather fought in World War II. My other grandfather worked on the Manhattan Project. So my family has some military background, and I very much value in many ways the service that the military does for us in keeping us protected, not just physically, but giving us these opportunities to work and to earn our own merits because i've seen the opposite of that where no matter how hard you work or how skilled

you are you never get paid more you're never able to rise above the position into which you're born and there's nothing more discouraging to the human spirit than something like that and this you know societies apart, because nobody has the incentive to do better. Like, why try if you know, you're never going to get there, then you have a bunch of corruption. If all of these negative effects, you have mass murders, you have the gulags, you know, if you want to learn anything about it, read the gulag archipelago, the book itself just describes that. And I've seen those places. And I'm just so thankful in so many ways for what we have here in America. And I don't think that people who haven't been outside of

America sometimes understand how blessed we are to have this country and to have these opportunities. So I just want to take a moment to say that because it's just something I see I get in fights online sometimes with people who are all about communism. And I just think they don't understand. Like, I've had family, on my mother's side, they're Ukrainian. I had family die in the famine because of what happened there. And, you know, we still, many generations later, have stories and people that were lost in our bloodline because of that. And, you know, then they get into it because it's like a personal thing for me. So anyways, I won't go into it on your podcast i don't want to get political but we can get on another

show um you know so uh you know the the thing that gave us is the incredible freedom and what's interesting about you you something just popped in my mind after all these years of being an entrepreneur what's interesting is we have a lot of freedoms like for example you've been to 75 countries and seen how other people live in the countries and of course experience and traveled and all that sort of good stuff what's interesting about being an entrepreneur is you it does give you freedom like i can compact my work like sometimes i can say well i'm going to play some video games this morning and i'm going to do that work later on today. I better play video games all day. But you technically tend to have freedom, you know, you're not locked in a cubicle, and you don't have to show up at nine to five.

But there is a bit of slavedom where you're, you know, you live it 24 seven. I remember about a decade ago, I moved to Las Vegas and was kind of restarting our business's life down here. And I had some Chinese investors. They wanted me to build a mortgage company for him down here. And I thought, well, this would be great. I'll get settled down here and I'll build a mortgage company for him as a CEO. So I did that for a couple of years and I did that for a year. And it was really nice to go home every night and, you know, after a certain time, turn it off. I was like, this is really great. But it's their money and I don't have to lose as much sleep and I can actually turn it off and go watch TV for the day where when you're

sort of an entrepreneur, you can't do that. But so a lot of people, a lot of people, you know, it really, I think this is what you're speaking about where, you know, people question, you know, what qualifies you to be an entrepreneur? I mean, anybody can be an entrepreneur. It really is being able to beat the odds, being able to innovate, be able to do the things to make the difference in the quality of product or service you want to deliver to the world. And, you know, the beautiful part about being an entrepreneur is really what you're doing is you're taking an idea or a product and you're just improving on it, making it better. Like you're taking a widget and you're just improving on it, making it better. Like you're, you're taking a widget and you're just making it better. You're putting a spin on it or improving or making it a higher quality or making a better widget, if you will. And that's really what you're doing. And if

you can do that well, if you can help other people make their lives better, they will pay you in direct proportion to, uh, to the value value of that and they don't really care if you're like well what would your resume like before you you know receive jobs what was your resume before you build the iphone i don't know if we should buy this it looks really great but seriously do you have a cell phone experience exactly if you can solve a real problem and you can save somebody time or money nobody cares where where you came from, what your background is. So long as you're not a criminal and you're not doing things that are terrible for society, nobody cares what school you went to. No one cares what grade you got in seventh grade.

It's about solving real problems for people and saving them time, saving them money, disrupting industries that need to be disrupted, delivering an amazing product at the right price point that solves the right problem. You know, and every time that somebody does ask me that question, well, what makes you qualified? The qualification is that I'm doing it. I don't need, you know, like so many people say, well, I really want to be an entrepreneur. How many people actually do that? I've met so many people in my life. They're like, oh, I'm going to found a business and I'm going to go do this. And I'm the only one who ever ended up quitting my job to actually do it. So I think that people have this idea that it's easy to be a CEO or to found your own company or whatever. But it's, if it were

so easy, then why aren't more people doing it, you know, and I think that what it requires is the strength and the courage of will to say, think that what it requires is the strength and the courage of will to say, you know what, this is what I'm going to do. And I believe in this idea so much that I'm willing to risk my income, I'm willing to risk my time, I'm willing to risk, you know, my future to go all in on something like this. And it's not easy to put in a resignation from a job that pays you really well with people that you like but you know when you do really believe in it you do it so anytime that anyone gives you oh well you're not qualified i think i am because here i am i'm doing it that's my qualification i exist and i'm doing

it so and magic leap seems to be doing an awesome job so far so they put their money behind you so that's good you know i don't think anyone should question what qualifies an entrepreneur. The proof is in the pudding and what you deliver. And, and, and that's really, you know, your product speaks for itself,

if you will. So I think it's awesome that you're doing that. And, and, and, and I, like I said, I,

I, I fully support STEM and more women in tech. We need more people building from a lot of different aspects of the value of what the future is going to be in our technology. And of course, applying their experience, their life, their life views,

their, their outlook, you know, the world is a wonderful kaleidoscope of so many different ideas and, and everything. And the enrichment of the quality of our daily life and products and services comes from that giant kaleidoscope of everyone in the world or everyone in America contributing to these ideals.

And an entrepreneur is a really great focal point to focus that in, beam that in to a different product or service, and in the end end improve the world make the world a better place and and you really don't get paid for that or get value off that other than just like hey i left my mark and i improved the world and made something better and there'll probably be an entrepreneur to come along and make whatever you made better i hope so that's the whole goal. You know, go ahead. Sorry.

I remember, I remember looking at painted paperclips and thinking, wow, there was a way to improve paperclips. I would have, I would never would have thought of that. The one thing I learned about being an entrepreneur and you probably figure this out,

but I'll give you this. The one thing I learned as an entrepreneur, the one mantra that I always had is there's a way, there's always a way to prove everything. There's always a way to go to the next level with everything to make it better, to improve it, whether it's my own products or services that I designed, there's always a way to make them better.

And if I don't make them better and eat my own lunch, somebody else will. So it's my job to make them better. And I used to walk around my company and I'd be like, well, this is great. What we do, we built this and I innovated or innovated, and this is great, but there's a better way and we've got to find it so we can save more money. So we can become more profitable. So we see the future. But if we don't figure out what the better way is, someone else will. I mean, I think that may the best man or woman win and whoever has the best product that solves the the best problem or the right problem you know the market will determine

who the winner is and you're sitting on top of that but i don't i don't have that any problem with that competition i enjoy the challenge of being better every day and wanting to grow every day. And that's something I could not agree with you more. Everything in life can be improved. And I'm unfortunately, but also fortunately, blessed with an eye of a critic. So everything I see is garbage to me. And I always see exactly what I can do to improve it. And it's sometimes frustrating when it's things that I can't improve myself, like, you know,

say an airport and the really inefficient way they line people up when they go through security. I can think of a thousand more efficient ways to do it, but I have no control over that. And it drives me crazy. I wish sometimes I wouldn't see the more efficient route because then I wouldn't be burdened with wanting to have it. But in my business, it is great because I'm constantly seeing the flaws. And instead of approaching it with an egotist point of view of saying, oh, well, the flaws don't exist.

I can't acknowledge them because that's a reflection on me. I am both my wins and my losses. I'm my positives, but I am also my flaws. And every day I seek to identify those flaws and fix them in an effort to become better than I was the day before, both personally and in my business. And I think that that's really crucial. And really key is that never get to a point in your life where you're too afraid to acknowledge your own faults, because that's when you become brittle. And that's when you have somebody come in and disrupt you and take your place because you're too afraid to actually fix the flaws that you have because you won't even identify them. So that's like something that I'm very, very passionate about is like owning and identifying mistakes all the time because that's the first step to fixing them. That's really awesome, Suzanne. That that is one of the things that's going to make you a successful entrepreneur. In fact, I can probably tell you you're going to be successful with that mindset.

The two key things that I found, because we built a lot of businesses and then we started loaning money to companies, which was really kind of a cherry picking effort to look for symbiotic relationships that we could fold into our companies. But one thing that we found in that study of doing that was most entrepreneurs fail because they come up with a mission or a business concept and they run that sucker into the ground for a year or two years, however long they burn through all their money. And they're just like, I'm going to make this,

this, how we built this originally, we're gonna make this work. And they won't change it until they file bankruptcy or they would call me and be like, I'm going to make this, how we built this originally, we're going to make this work. And they won't change it until they file bankruptcy. Or they would call me and be like, hey, we need some money. And I'd be like, why? Because we're about ready to file bankruptcy. And you're just like, I don't know, what kind of furniture do you have?

You have some trademarks we can buy or copyright? And that's what I found. They would run it right into the ground and they would have this ego that like, this has to work. And the successful entrepreneurs that I've known, even myself, are the people who eat their own lunch. They look at that stuff. And that mindset you're talking about of looking at the world and going, how can we make everything better? I did that long before I started business. For me, that was part of the training to become a CEO. And I would look around the world and I count things too. And I kind of have this weird subconscious thing that's almost rain mannish, but just not that good. But I count

things like I would look at billboards and I'd be like, okay, that company has got 13 billboards and I see their thing everywhere. So obviously their company is going somewhere. Why are they doing that? Why are they using that type of advertising? That's interesting advertising and advertising work. And I would count all this stuff. And somewhere when we started our second company after a year and a half of starting our first on top of the first company,

I started having some issues with the obsessive compulsive and having anxiety, panic attacks and different things like that. Medication for the ADD. And I went and talked to my psychiatrist to get the medication. And I remember him saying to me, he goes, he goes, do you count things? And I go, yeah, I count. I count stuff and I explained to him how I compartmentalize and count things. And, and I like monitor stuff and I look at things and like,

what is somebody else doing and how can I improve it? And, you know, I'd be unhappy with everything. And he'd be like, I got to tell you, he goes, you know,

I'd probably have you committed if it wasn't for the fact that you're using this for business, you're just counting shit. Just because you just were counting stuff right and can you drag all this madness he goes he goes we probably haven't committed but the fact that you're doing it for business purpose and you're using it to make money for your companies clearly that's good but we need to still put you on some medication so uh the curse and the thing so let's get into bad vr let's talk about bad vr you started this

business um give us some different ideas now also we should point out we want to plug this you're going to be speaking at awe show here at santa clara coming up this week yes yes so i will be speaking on may 31st at 1 30 p.m in. in the Grand Ballroom at AWE. I'll be speaking about using XR to discover the future of data, sharing a lot of the insights that I have found during my time at Bad VR and sort of explaining how I see the future being shaped at the intersection of data and immersive technology. So I would love to see everyone in the audience

and, of course, meet everyone afterwards or before, and hopefully you'll enjoy all of my unique presentation. It involves some weird art. It also involves lots of data and some real life use cases and examples. So it would be pretty awesome to join. And it's going to be pretty awesome. There's AR, VR, and XR. And I don't, hopefully they just stop with the ARs and just kind of work on that. I remember when I first heard it was like XR, I'm like, what? I can barely keep up with what's going on with AR and VR. What is up with all these accurate?

Listen, I can't wait until it's just like the visor. It's going to be that eventually. Right now there's like differentiation and xr covers the whole spectrum and then we have a technical term which i love spatial computing i don't use it because anyone outside of this small world does not know what that means um you know but i just in the way that, you know, when iPhones first came out, they were like a special type of smartphone. But now it's just, we call them phones, right? Like every phone is a smartphone.

We don't really distinguish between a non-smartphone and a smartphone. All phones are now smartphones. So I can't wait until all glasses or all visors are, you know, AR and VR. And so we don't even have to distinguish between that. And I think that in the future, it's all just going to be one headset anyways. Like right now you have dedicated VR headsets and dedicated AR headsets.

But I think in the future, it's all just going to be one headset and you can have different modes and pass through and all of this good stuff. And that is the future that I'm very excited about. So no more acronyms for anything. It's just a headset or just a visor. In the future, I'm very excited about. So no more acronyms for anything. It's just a headset or just a visor. And the future I'm hoping for, I'd probably be alive for it,

is when it's all in a contact lens. Oh, that would be great. And when we have that brain-computer interface, so I don't even have to just think about it. And so that's my, like, I hope, hope, hope that I live to see the day that that happens. Because going back to what you said about, you know, obsessive compulsive, like, I constantly, constantly have so many thoughts in my head. And I used to actually blog to share all of the thoughts all the time. And I did, I have this theory that if you do something for 10,000 hours, it's not my theory, but a theory that I read in that I believe in. If you do something for 10,000 hours, you become really good at it. So I just,

I don't sleep a lot at night, I have a lot of sleep disorders. And so I'm one of those weird people that only sleeps like four hours every night. So I just like obsessively do stuff like I write, I learned, I taught myself how to play the piano, I play the bagpipes, I play the violin, I know how to do screenwriting, just like I have all these weird hobbies because I just have all this extra time um and just going through and like learning all about these different things I can't remember where I was going with this but I think that you know going back to numbers if you do something repeatedly for 10,000 hours you become good at it so I don't know how that ties to what I was originally saying. It's a hallmark of a successful entrepreneur and being,

being that diversiveness of, of approaching some of the different things. I mean, one of the problems, one of the problems I have is is being an entrepreneur all my life. I started when I was 18 and once you get that drug, you're hooked. Even if you don't succeed or succeed long-term with whatever business, that entrepreneurial drug, I used to tell my investors and my board and my partners, I say, you know, I love being the CEO partially because the buck stops here. I love the adventure. I love the challenge. I love the, you know, the, you know, having that demand of having to innovate.

And everything is on you. It's all you. And you're the leader. And you're either going to live or die. And even if you die, you're going to live another day because you're going to go start another business with what you learned. And sometimes, you know, the vehicle just wasn't right, but you're going to get it. But the diversity you're talking about, it's really important as a CEO because, you know, what was it? Steve Jobs said one of the most important things to him was learning a literature background. I think it

was literature or literary arts in college. And that's what helped him design the fonts and everything else that went into it. I've known a number of great presidents and CEOs throughout my career that literally arts was, they factor that as one of the things that made them a great at business because they, you know, there's so many different things,

especially you've traveled to 75 different countries. There's probably all sorts of different things that you see in a corporate and then all of that comes down to this concentrated solution into your business. You know,

my, one of my challenges in life being an entrepreneur is I've, I've got so many different projects and hobbies and things that I like to do and adventures, you know, I'll be like, okay, I want to be a camera guy for 10 years and I'll,

I'll go buy like all the cameras and projects. You know, I've been single all my life. I have no kids. I have two dogs. They're my children. And my problem is, is people are like, why don't you settle down with Chris

and, you know, do the whole suburban thing? And well, I kind of live in suburbia, but I'm just always on these adventures and exploring and stuff. But that makes you a better entrepreneur because you take all that diversity and it doesn't mean you have to be single in your life. You can get married and stuff.

But having that broad aspect, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. It all comes down to this concentrate inside you. And the diversity of being able to, you know, it's that mindset. I think a lot of people, like we talked about, when they work, you know, and you're sitting in a cubicle and you just have one job. And that's good. I don't want to shame that. There's some people that that's actually really good for them. They're not going to do well in an entrepreneur format.

That's all right. Yeah. You should be an entrepreneur. So Bad VR. You guys are going to be AWE. Did we get your booth number? No. We're booth 527 in the main expo hall so feel free to stop by we will

be demoing um the app the magic leap app that we'll be releasing soon this is the one that we received the grant for it's called c signal um this visualizes networking data within your environment from your wi-fi bluetooth and cellular. So you basically can put on a headset, and it acts as x-ray goggles and allows you to see your Wi-Fi coverage within your home to better optimize it, and also your cell phone and Bluetooth devices as well. So we're giving live demos of that, along with a couple of our other what we call data environments, which is unique to our product.

We do not use any charts and graphs in our data analytics platform. So a lot of people really struggle to conceptualize what is data if it isn't in a chart or a graph. So what we've done is come up with these new immersive standards for visualizing data, and they manifest as four unique data environments. So each of these environments, the same structure, different story. We paint your data onto the structure. And like I said earlier in this podcast, it's that vision that I had between melding an immersive experience like the

holodeck with data. So every part of these experiences are data driven and they help you discover hidden patterns and correlations within your data. So we'll have a couple of these environments there at the booth for people to try out as well. And lots of cool people to hang out with and, you know, fun stuff to see. So definitely stop by. This is pretty cool.

At badvr.com, you guys talk about how C-Signal works. You guys have complex data spatialization, sampling and algorithms, and a touch of machine learning. And your app discovers signals emanating from your right phones, Wi-Fi and algorithms, and a touch of machine learning. And your app discovers signals emanating from your right phones, Wi-Fi routers, and Bluetooth devices. And you can fully interact with it, completely immersive overlay, get an accurate reading of any signal layer. You can reach out and grab a holographic stick, poke, a mesh mesh or tap a red sphere what for those who don't know that technology what is a holographic stick or a mesh or a red sphere so basically these are holographic representations of the data and what we do instead of making you right now when you're taking a

reading of your wi-fi or your cellular network you have to go to a specific point in space and take out the reader and get a reading. And then you can walk to another place and take out the, you know, reader and get a reading. But you can't holistically put on a headset and immediately see that. You have to collect it first by doing this very arduous, time-consuming task of standing in a bunch of different places to get sample readings. So what essentially we do is allow you to put on the headset, walk around the room for like 30 seconds, and then with our algorithms or spatialization algorithms and all the magic whiz-whiz behind the scene, essentially create an immersive model of your Wi-Fi or cellular data within that room.

So you can just immediately see, oh, hey, that's where the hotspot is. That's where the dead zone is. And the way that we display this to you is through these interactive holographic sticks that are displayed into a mesh. So I guess- It's going to be kind of fun then. No, it's okay.

Go for it. It's going to be kind of fun to have around my house because we get sent all sorts of Wi-Fi routers from all the different companies next year. Who else? I can't think of them off the top of my head, but everyone says all sorts of Wi-Fi routers from all the different companies next year. Who else? I can't think of them off the top of my head. Everyone says it's their Wi-Fi routers and extenders and stuff. I'm always having to test

how much they spread out the MIMO on them which is supposed to, they always say it'll adjust to your house as to where to move out. You're always like, really? I'm just kidding. We review stuff.

It's our job to go, does that really do what it does? And it's good for consumers. So it would be fun to kind of go, you know, I'm constantly walking around my house. I'm probably who would use this. I'm constantly walking around my house with a Wi-Fi measure on the phone and going, okay, is this Wi-Fi router going to extend over here? And so it would be cool to mess with that data. Who's your customer base?

Who's the people that would utilize your product the most? So with this particular app, as it relates to the grant that we received, it's more for productivity, but behind the scenes, the enterprise version of this app that is not yet released would be targeted towards telecoms for RF modeling for 5G deployments. And then also for IoT arrays and setting those up and visualizing the signals from different IoT sensors within a given environment on a campus, manufacturing center, assembly line, that sort of stuff.

So this is going to be pretty awesome. And on your guys' website, again, badvr.com, you guys are talking about 5G, and you referenced that earlier. I know that there's a lot of cool things coming with 5G. In fact, a lot of people say with robotics, with your industry, 5G is going to change the world because of the amount of data you can transport over it. And just it's going to be as transformative or more to our world as say the iPhone was. Yes, I agree. I mean, and I think that it's something that maybe consumers won't necessarily see because it is really focused on heavy industry

and enterprise in terms of the value add initially. The difference to a consumer between 4G and 5G right now is not necessarily detectable. It's a little bit faster to download a movie maybe or a photo. Eventually when we start to have more headsets like the Oculus Quest that are completely untethered and we're doing this streaming of immersive experiences,

that's when 5G will really, really shine. But the first, first use cases, I think that really will highlight the value of it are heavy industry, industrial, IoT, sort of data streaming like that. And that's why I think that, you know, one of our environments is specifically targeted towards IoT and visualizing the data coming from thousands or even millions of different sensors within an environment. I think that AR and VR

really is going to be the interface for IoT and also for 5G. And so I think that that's one of the pieces that's really missing is our ability to holistically see IoT. Like, you know, we have a concept of what IoT is, but like, how do we see that data? And how do we interact with it? And how do we, you know, manage it remotely? And then also, for 5G, you know, how do we visualize the placement of these different micro cells? How do we model out the signal to make sure that, way that the cells are placed to optimize some coverage, both internally and externally to buildings? I think it's this particular tool that we have is super crucial for both of those industries to give a human interface to helping plan them and deploy them. So you'll be able to help with the 5G rollout.

I know that when I go to big things like CES show and everything, we've had, of course, the CEO, Mr. Shapiro, on the show for CES. And one of the things we talked about was one of the problems you used to have at CES, you don't have it anymore. And it wasn't CES specifically. It was CES being hosted in the las vegas convention center is you had you know almost i don't know if it's a million people but it seems like it is um you had hundreds of thousands of all these people in this giant warehousing building of the las vegas convention center and ces is trying to be there and

everything and they're trying to give not only broadband to the booths that are there on Wi-Fi. They're also trying, you know, you've got people walking around on phones, seeing pictures and trying to upload them to social and chitter chatter on their phones or, you know, wherever they do text messaging. And for years, it was just such a challenge to go to Las Vegas Convention Center, especially CS, because there's just a concentrate of so many people. it's such a great show, at being able to get a signal. Like I would try and live broadcast from there and be a nightmare. And so I can see where companies, eventually what happened is Las Vegas Convention Center finally really invested and they spent a ton of money

to have some telecoms come in and wire up the place properly so that there would be a continuum signal. I know AT&T, which sends us mobile phones that we review, so we love AT&T, they take in, will bring these giant trucks out to places, like events, they're probably going to have one at AWE. I know they bring these huge facilities out for these giant technology trucks out. They bring them out to the events.

And so I can see a lot of use case for your technology. In fact, I probably don't even know all the use case because I don't work in the telecom business, but I know enough to be dangerous, I guess, I suppose. Not really dangerous, just enough to throw some name drops at it. But I can see that, and especially with 5G rollout. What do you think? I don't want to get into politics at all here, but I know that one of the good things I just heard about recently that I'm hoping it's a good thing, so that's why I'm asking you, but I heard that the administration

for our country is really trying to make 5G, you know, maybe make us one of the first or best 5G or get that rolled out fairly quickly. I think a couple other countries actually have rolled out, but I know they're giving that a priority. Is that a thing that's going to help 5G? Yes, absolutely. And I am very thankful, regardless of where I stand politically, that that is a topic that is given high priority because I think it is very important. And I think that subsidizing and supporting that particular 5G rollout and with the telecoms will put us in a good position globally in comparison to a lot of our competitors. And I do think that in particular with China having

a different style of government that makes it easier for them to across the board sort of mandate things and get them implemented because they don't have the burden. And I don't mean that in a negative way, both the burden and the joys of democracy. It can take us a little longer. Don't get me wrong, I'd choose it any day. But when you do have a country that has total control like China does, they can implement things very, very quickly. So I think it is really important that our administration does take and does value 5G as something that we also need to work on implementing as fast as possible as well. And I know that with Bad VR, we've spoken many, not many times, but a couple of times to FCC, and they are very supportive of what it is that we're doing. And we

are working closely with them to help make sure that this 5G rollout is assisted with our technology and what we're producing and using that to help prioritize 5G implementation nationwide. And I recently saw, I think it was a CES or NEB show, there was some robotics companies, or maybe it was just online at a company show feature but they were talking about how with robotics with automation the automation robots and the different production things that we use um the 5g really is important because they no longer have to tether the robots to a cable or like what you see with that boston dynamics dog that always scares the crap out of the future overlords. Every time I see that, I hear the Terminator sound.

Why not? I'm trying to get my head right every time I see one of the bossy, dynamic videos. But, hey, you know, I welcome my robotic overlords. Please don't kill me. But 5G is going to be really important, and it's going to be really transformative. I mean, a lot of people, if you do your research, if you do Google,

the technology you're developing and working on and assisting with, 5G is going to change our world. It's going to bring us into a whole new dynamism. Is that a word? It'll be a whole new dynasty of 5g dynasty and dynamic future i'm just using like that a dyn something word english um i went to public school give me a break so uh what else do we know about your guys's company and what you guys are doing there um well i think one of of our biggest differentiators,

sort of talked about earlier, is our unique approach to not using charts and graphs. Another one I think that is important for everyone to know is that all of their experiences are fully interactive when you are immersed. So you don't have to actually exit out of the immersive experience to perform analysis or to do filtering. So when you're inside of one of our data environments, you can perform live filtering on millions of different data points using our specialized controller.

So you don't have to get out to rerun the query. All of that can be done immersively. And also the positive part about all of this is that we work on untethered headsets. So we can work on the Oculus Class. We can work on, you know, the Mirage Solo, which is also completely untethered. And we can also work down all the way to like a mobile phone working on a Google Cardboard. So that's really been a big focus of the company is mobility. And I think that that is something that's really crucial to the adoption of this sort of technology within a lot of enterprise companies. It being tied to a computer with a heavy cord and the necessity of having all of this computing power attached to the headset really makes it a hard sell.

We've been very successful at selling this sort of mobile solution, basically the idea of taking your data center anywhere with you. Yeah, thank you. It can also work completely offline. So it doesn't have to go through the cloud. We can have it go through a cloud. It doesn't have to go through our cloud. It can go through anybody's cloud or it can also be done completely on prem by putting an encrypted SD card into a headset. So if it has the abilities, which some headsets do, you can go through and explore it and just completely self-contained, which we work with a lot of, you know, proprietary data sets and very, very highly sensitive stuff.

So we wanted to build a system that was comfortable to people who are working in situations like that. And 5G is going to be so important. In fact, you know, that just hit me. You know, the untethering is really important, as you know. I'm just a lowly consumer. But, you know, being able to not be attached to something is really important. That's probably why I'm single after, you know.

I'm attached to dogs, but, you know know they can do whatever they want their huskies are pretty independent but I noticed oh the other day our good friend Robert Scoble I think he's interviewed you hasn't he? he came to our office in Marina Del Rey it was really fun

he just launched his infinite retina my best friend so give that a plug he just posted I think retina, my best friend. So give that a plug. He just posted, I think yesterday on Facebook, a picture of him and his son and they're in a airport aisle. I don't know if you've seen this.

I saw that. Yeah. In an airport aisle, sitting in the chairs of the airplane. And they both have their, I think they, the Oculus quest on the oculus quest and they're sitting there both wearing the headset with the with the with the handles in the row of the thing and i'm sure everyone the plane is like what the hell is that like i remember when i was trying to

write a book when i i got one of the first ipads not the first ipad but you know what i mean uh early on ipads no one no one knew what was going on in fact years ago i got one not the first iPad, but you know what I mean? Early on iPads, no one knew what was going on. In fact, years ago, I got one of the first early Bluetooth headpieces and people would look at me like, what is that crazy idea? And people would turn to me and the thing go like, what the hell? And the same thing, I would go to like Starbucks and I'd be trying to write this book on my iPad and, you know, get out of my home environment so I could kind of focus. And people would be like, what, what the hell is that dude doing? So I'm sure people would do that to Robert. I don't ever see it. And I thought, Oh my God, this is the future. I'm going to get on a plane. There's going to be

like homeless people wearing headsets. Oh, yeah. I received one of the first Magic Leap headsets here in the Los Angeles area. And shortly after I received it, I needed to go on a trip to Germany and to Greece. So I actually took my headset with me and I wore it on the airplane. And everyone was just they honestly thought that I was a YouTuber. It was some GoPro headset with a bunch of cameras on it, probably because of the tattoos and what I look like. They're, oh, are you a YouTuber?

It's an augmented reality headset. It was just like nobody knew what I was doing. I was definitely the weirdo, which I'm used to being, so it was totally fine. Most entrepreneurs are the weirdo, which I'm used to being, so it's totally fine. And then I- Most entrepreneurs are the weirdo. Yeah. We're the kind of the freaks who go, hey man, normal isn't cool.

We dream of the what if, and we make what if happen. And if it wasn't for us, you guys have a really boring future and you just keep doing the same old, same old. You know, we'd still be all doing rotary dials, whatever. Now I noticed I'm on badbr.com. Be sure to go to it, check it out. And everything, all the cool stuff they have there and also see them at EWE show coming up this week in Santa Clara. Let's get your tickets if you haven't.

But I noticed on here, you guys have a relationship with AT&T. Oh yeah. We have had a couple couple conversations with them. We are moving forward. We've talked about visualizing some dropped call information. Our conversations with them actually were what sort of inspired C-Signal. So we stay really close to, you know, the customers and the people that are using our product. We really help them or we really work with them and have them help us determine what our product should be. So the struggles with visualizing dead zones and tracing dropped calls are really what sort of inspired C-Signal, along with my own personal struggles with cell coverage in my house at the time.

AT&T is employed to them. We've reviewed a lot of AT&T phones on the show. We've reviewed Verizon over the years, not so much lately. Sprint, all the different things that Sprint bought, Virgin VR, Virgin Cellular, and

who's the other company t-mobile um but att really had the vision of sticking with us we've had a relationship with the att for i think almost 10 years now we view all their phones um they they give the support when we go to shows there we use their wi-fi hot spots uh they give us the power to deliver the show at stuff it's kind of funny i'll be at different events like CES and stuff and I'll have people message me on Facebook they're like the Chris Voss show Wi-Fi hotspot just walk by

so I know you're within 50 to 100 feet of us we want to meet you we want to hang out with you and stuff and it's all brought to us by AT&T and what's really cool is I took in I took in when people at events and stuff, or even when we go out to dinner with friends and stuff, I'll be like, hey, you can use my hotspot courtesy of AT&T. And so everyone gets to sample the AT&T network and the thing.

And it's really great. I think AT&T is just always in this really great vision of what the future is going to be like. And, of course, I'm sure they're in that competitive space rolling out the 5g i i know that the new notes uh they've sent us in the samsung galaxy s which i love uh those got the new i think it's 5g something and it's called it's not the full 5g but yeah it's kind of like the 5g light if you remember the 4g light back on the day um so it's you know it's getting there and all that good stuff but we certainly appreciate it i think it's awesome they're giving the thing uh for years we've gone to the

18t event that they do the developer uh program they do or kind of conference they do right before the cs show and we we go to see the CEO and all the different CEOs of different companies that come give their speeches and talk about what AT&T's vision is for the future. For a while there, it was about cars. And I think cars are going to be a big part of the future too as well. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I think that, yeah, actually cars, this is something I believe

I have to credit Robert Schoepel with this idea of having cars potentially be houses for the microcells of a 5G network. So, like, obviously with microcells, you don't, right now with cell towers, you have, you know, these really, really large things and they cover a bunch of broad distances. But the way that 5G works, you have microcells, which are much smaller and they cover a bunch of broad distances but the way that 5g works you have microcells which are much smaller and they cover much sort of shorter distances and the with the way that the pattern the wave works it doesn't go through a certain material and it's a lot more finicky when it comes to coverage so you really need to have more of them within a given space by several orders of magnitude so if you have a distributed fleet of something like Ubers, where they could all have a 5G microcell on it, they're constantly around you, they're always sort of circling it, it's maybe better to have that those microcells be mobile versus them

being stationary in any given place. I don't know, it was an idea that he said to me that I really was like, well, that's very innovative and very unique. And that would be a really amazing future to have 5G sort of coincide with cars in the sense of them actually being the 5G transmitters. and sending data back and forth for smart cars, for LiDAR information, mapping different areas, using data from smart cars. Definitely there's that aspect of it. But the one that's really captured my attention was that distributed 5G network on Uber. I was like, that's very futuristic. It'll be funny.

Someday in the future, if I'm in a dead zone, like somewhere in America, like back in the sticks, I'll be like, I in the future if i'm in a dead zone like somewhere in america like back in the sticks i'll i'll be like i can't get a signal i'll order an uber and just have them sit out front be like do you want to go anywhere i'm like no just sit there in your car because i'm getting my phone signal yeah i know i was like that's just like such a great idea i mean obviously outside of like large cities you might not have the coverage with an uber network but in large cities it makes so much sense um and yeah if it would be like that easy of like oh i'm just gonna order myself

a little microcell right here i'm just gonna call an uber and pay them to sit next to me so i can have coverage hey man i'd do it i'm not gonna lie i don't know if this is done already maybe it's done already but a brilliant idea in paying for roads and freeways and cities would be, you know, you know, when you're like here in Las Vegas, we have a lot of these big freeways and we have these big light towers that run down the middle of them.

I mean, the one thing that cell phone companies are always fighting with residents about is putting up these cell phone trees everywhere. And I think 5g is less gaudy. It's less, isn't it? You have to have more of them, but they're less, you know, you don't have to have these giant cell towers that are kind of gaudy to look at. Yeah, they look like, how do I put this?

Like, you know, those radiators that you have in your home? It's about the size. I mean, maybe some of them are a little bit larger, but roughly speaking, that's the size versus a huge tower that we think of now as when we conceptualize the idea of a cell tower. So yeah, they're much smaller in size. It would be interesting if they just ran them

along those lighting stands and then cities or governments use those to pay for the freeway upkeep or building. I don't know, maybe someone's already thought of that. I don't know. But that would be an interesting way of doing that. Definitely. And I think it has a lot to do with also powering smart cities. You know, when we start to have this sort of really, really, really intense coverage along these different areas, now you can start putting sensors on all of those light poles too. You can start putting cameras, you can start putting, you know, intelligent distributed, you know, automation and grids and all of this sort of stuff. And even AI, which

comes later once you have this sort of grid of like intelligent 5G sort of microcells, and that's sort of the Skynet sort of crazy future, but it's all possible. And it all starts with those deployments, which is what our tool, C-Signal and then Bad VR in general is really helping with is figuring out where do we place these little microcells to get the optimal coverage for everybody, you know, and like, how do I view the coverage of these microcells in a three-dimensional space? Because right now, when you think of cell coverage, you think of you go into a, you know, like a T-Mobile or an AT&T store and you have a 2D map on the wall. And it's just, you know, lines on a map. And like either you're in the coverage or you're not.

You're in the orange area or you're in the white area. But it's not quite so simple. I mean, altitude has a lot to do with the quality of the coverage or the coverage. So when you're in an orange area and you technically have coverage at a certain altitude, you actually don't. And then a lot of building materials have to do with that as well. You can be in an area that's orange, but you live in a concrete building, you're not going to have coverage or, you know, a lot of shrubbery has a lot to do with it, surprisingly enough as well. So it's shrubbery.

It's the damn shrubbery. So it's like, you know, three dimensional modeling of cell signal coverage is really important and becomes even more important when you have these micro cells that are even more sensitive to coverage than our existing networks and the signals that we use now. So it's really going to be something that is a three-dimensional problem when it comes to deployment. So that's why we did choose to build this tool. And that's why we're working really closely with a lot of these telecoms to figure out exactly what they need to do these coverage rollouts and to really place these

microsales in the correct locations. Amanda, it's pretty difficult to give cell phone service to places like Denver. They're like mile high, you know? Yep. I mean, surprisingly, I'm in like atmospheric events too, like weather patterns actually have a lot of effect on coverage too. So it's a very complex issue. And we really have sort of reduced it down to these like in or out, you know, maps of like it's covered or it's not. And it's, you know, with a lot of data

that we've done that we just really reduced it out of necessity because we don't have a better way to display it. But I think that's what, you know, immersive technology will help solve is give that nuance to these data sets that actually do have a lot of nuance. And it is becoming something that is necessary. We need to know these different points in this different, you know, the nuance in coverage and in weather and all these different data sets. We need a way to view that. And that's what immersive tech gives us.

And that's what bad VR gives you. That's awesome sauce. So as we wrap up, anything you want to plug more about bad VR? Well, I just, I want to remind everyone to make sure to come by our booth at AWE, booth 527 in the main expo hall.

Definitely come and say hi to me and say hi to the rest of the team. Definitely check out my talk May 31st at one 30 in the grand ballroom at AWE. And then of course, check me out on Twitter. My handle is Suzanne borders and I go off on Twitter ramp and I get into, you know, flame wars with a bunch of people and very entertaining person to follow.

I promise. So it will be worth your time. I'll be following you for sure because I'm also one of those people. So I love people that I'm like, yeah, I'm angry too. I love being mad on the internet. I have spent my whole life being somebody on the internet, right, because I lived in the middle of nowhere in Kansas City and I didn't have a lot of in real life friends so you know just like internet was like my escape as well as Star Trek obviously

but I learned um you know sort of like internet culture very early on and I've definitely been one of those girls that like pretends to be a dude on 4chan like that's definitely been me my whole life so I've been like flame warring people since I was like 12 years old so it's kind of like in my nature but but you know, I think that you can't really be an entrepreneur without having some desire to be, to be confrontational or aggressive or put your ideas out there. And I always, I've always found that me personally, I always start friendships from arguments.

So I find like people on the internet, I get to a fight with them and then we end up becoming best friends. But I appreciate the strength of somebody standing up to me and, and, and arguing for their opinions. And anyway, so long story short, I love playing wars on the internet.

Challenging ideas, say challenging the status quo saying, how can we make this better? You know, a lot of people, they look at stuff and they, they, and they look at the cell phone and they go,

they look, they looked at a rotary phone and went, this thing is the greatest thing ever. I mean, I remember the rotary phone. Yeah. Then I first got the wireless phone. Yeah. With a giant antenna on it. Yeah.

It was a cellular back then. And I remember having the brick phone, the cellular phone. It was like $800 a month back then for a business. Oh, my God. Crazy. And you could kill somebody with this brick phone. And then they had extended battery. You could buy, like, double this weight.

And you could murder somebody with the size of this brick phone. My dad had one. And I was young enough that I didn't have to pay the bill, so I didn't know. Actually, I was like, you know. But I remember he had it. And I remember throwing it at my sister one time. And my dad freaked out at me because he's like, don't break it. Don't break it. And then it was also like, it's actually going freaked out at me because it, he's like, don't break it, don't break it.

Then it was also like, it's actually going to really harm her. It's like 12 pounds. It's like tiny. So you can weightlift with the damn thing. But there were a lot of people who looked at those and went, this is the greatest technology ever. There's no way anything can be better.

And you know, here we have these paper thin devices that, that have more, I think Robert Scoble posted something about one of the early supercomputers back in the day. And the thing is like massive and, and our phones have way more computing power and do stuff. And those guys did.

In fact, it makes me wonder what they were doing back there. Were they solving two plus two or something with those? But I remember seeing the big, what was it? Five megabyte memory chips, memory consoles from IBM being loaded onto a truck. And this thing was like, this thing was huge.

And it was just five megabytes. Like, look at the megabytes. Those people can look that up to see what a megabyte is. It's so crazy how you have that curve. You know, if you look at that, I can't remember what the name of that curve is, but it's like the curve of innovation where it's like, you know, two megabytes or whatever. It took that much longer back then,

and then it just keeps getting smaller and smaller at an exponential rate. Is it Moore's Law? I think it's Moore's Law, right. And if you actually graph out Moore's law. It's this like crazy sort of growth curve because it's completely exponential. But I think that it's, you know, when you look at it now,

computers have a lot of processing power and they're very, very, very good at doing specific things. But when it comes to stuff like pattern recognition, which is what you use a lot in data, our brains are still better at that by several orders of magnitude than computers are. So I think that in the future,

we're really going to hone in on like, what tasks are computers really good at? You know, these repetitive sort of numbers crunching tasks and what tasks are the human brain, what tasks does the human brain perform very, very well, and then sort of find this way to mesh the two together. And that's going to be exciting. I think it's awesome that you're being an entrepreneur and you're making this happen

with Bad VR. Everyone, be sure to go to see Bad VR, go to the AWE show or go to the website at badvr.com. Check out Suzanne's speech she's going to be giving there at AWE. And of course, watch for her. I'm sure she'll be speaking at a lot of whole other shows and stuff like that in the future. So we certainly appreciate you being on the show. We certainly appreciate our audience. Be sure to give us a like.

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Refer people to the show so we can get a bigger audience because we certainly appreciate it. We keep you the greatest guests in the world. Thanks, Suzanne, for being on the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you. And we'll see you guys next time.