The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Before They Were Men: Essays on Manhood, Compassion, and What Went Wrong by Jacob Tobia

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

Before They Were Men: Essays on Manhood, Compassion, and What Went Wrong by Jacob Tobia https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0593797949 Gender nonconforming thought leader and bestselling author Jacob Tobia offers a paradigm-shifting argument for fundamentally reframing how we think about men. “A reckoning, a manifesto, a wellspring of curiosity, and an invitation to consider better ways of imagining masculinity.”—Amanda Montell, New York Times bestselling author of The Age of Magical Overthinking, Cultish, and Wordslut The conversation about masculinity, patriarchy, and misogyny has never been so prominent or heated. Alarmed by a new generation of angry, broken young men, genderqueer writer Jacob Tobia sets out to explore what’s going on and comes to a shocking conclusion: Emotionally and spiritually speaking, men and boys may be the ones suffering the most under the gender binary right now. Tobia should know. For their gender-defying adolescent heart, the nonconsensual process of being “made a man” was crushing. After spending a lifetime fleeing manhood and masculinity, they dare to ask the question: What happens if we stop understanding men as categorical beneficiaries of patriarchal institutions and start understanding them for what they are—co-survivors of patriarchy itself? In a series of personal and revolutionary essays, Before They Were Men argues that we must rewire much of our framework of feminism. Through this much-needed nonbinary intervention into a two-sided discourse gone stale, Tobia boldly posits compassion and empathy as the forces that will lead men—and us all—to a brighter future. Urgent, surprising, and counterintuitive, their book covers topics such as • the unspoken body image issues and dysmorphia confronting men and boys • the difficulty of challenging a world that glorifies war, aggression, and the violence of men • the case for rethinking, and ultimately retiring, counterproductive terms like “toxic masculinity” and “male privilege” From exploring the abuse endured by men in the name of gender norms to addressing the myriad failures of feminist discourse in grappling with men’s suffering, this book calls everyone—men, women, and nonbinary people alike—back to the table.

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Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, my name is Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my family and friends. We certainly appreciate it. As always, the Chris Voss Show. Family loves you, doesn't judge you. They moved my buttons here. Oh you got buttoned. We have buttons but they just pushed an update on StreamYard and I'm like hey where's the intro button eh? So welcome to the Big Show my family and friends. We certainly appreciate you guys being here for 16 years, 24 on an episode to bring you the Chris Voss Show. 10 to 15 new amazing interviews every week and all that good stuff.

Today we have another great interview that we'll be talking to about a wonderful book author as a new book out on the market. In the meantime, I need you to go to Goodreads.com, Forchess Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, Forchess Chris Voss, Chris Voss 1 the Tik TokityFossFacebook.com, I think that is where we're at. I just got thrown because I can't find my button. Someone move my cheese. Isn't that a thing? Anyway, the author of the latest book that just came out, or is coming out, August 26th, 2025, Before They Were Men, Essays on Manhood, Compassion, and What Went Wrong, Jacob Tobiah joins us on the show.

We're gonna get into it with him and talk to you about his new book, his insights, his experience in life journey, and all those great things that we do in collecting stories. Jacob is a gender nonconforming writer, producer, and performer based in Los Angeles. He's a member of the Forbes 30 under 30 and the Out 100. Jacob has made history on television voicing the non-binary character of Double Trouble

in Netflix's She-Ra and The Princess of Power. Welcome to the show, Jacob. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to be here. How are you doing, Chris? I am excellent. It's a pleasure to have you as well.

Give us your dot coms. Where can people find you on the interwebs? Jacob Tobiah www.jacobtopiah.com and at Jacob Tobiah across all socials. Chris Lange So give us a $30,000 overview. What's in the new book? Jacob Tobiah You know, my first book, Sissy, is a memoir of my coming of gender story and how I came to understand myself as a gender nonconforming person, as a non-binary person, sort of taking people on, on that path with me.

And, you know, I, I wasn't sure exactly where I was going to go with Book 2. And I'd just been watching the world and seeing how things have unfurled and could not fight and still can't fight this kind of sneaking suspicion that there is a lot going on with men and boys right now, in terms of mental health, in terms of, in terms of a real need for more complicated conversations, right? In terms of a need for championing that I, that, that I just couldn't deny that I needed to focus on this, right? So much of my own experience has been escaping some of the parts of masculinity that like really didn't work for me, that just didn't make me happy, that didn't make me feel good and finding what joy meant for me. And I was like, I have some lessons for kind of both sides of the aisle here

from that experience in the middle. And that's kind of where the book came from. Now we've heard different stats and stories lately on men's issues. Are there any stats that you want to quote or any research you want to cite from your book and stuff? Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. stats and stories lately on men's issues. Do you, are there any stats that you want to quote or any research you want to cite from your book and stuff? Yeah.

I mean, there's a few statistics in the book that I think are really, that are really powerful and the way that I have it set up is like, I try to, to talk about, to talk about kind of the intellectual and emotional stuff without plugging too many statistics, not because statistics aren't important, but because the statistics are really sharp, like they're really hard to sit with. And I think a lot of times in like public health writing and in sort of academic writing,

people just throw statistics at you, like they're easy to hold. And you know, and I'm like, and the way I present them in the book, it's really kind of like a poem. So you finish a chapter and you turn to a page and there's just one page like that's blank, other than the statistic. And this one says, men commit 81% of violent crime. And another another another statistic that I think is really important is

men are four times more likely to die by suicide than women. Yeah. And it's I don't want to present that to my reader in the middle of an essay. I'm like, no, you've got to hold that for a second. You got to press pause, sit, take a breath with it and be like, whoa, okay, if that's true, what might I not be understanding here in terms of how human suffering looks in this day and age? Pete Slauson So, do you delve into those stats and flesh them out in the book? Jared Slauson Yeah.

So, there's a lot, the book is a lot more narratively driven and a lot more kind of like logic and reason driven because I think when people think about gender, I don't think most people really, like in general, like if you try and argue with statistics, people don't emotionally connect to statistics in the way that they connect to stories and in the way that they connect to like anecdotes and narratives. So, the book has a fat work like sources section, right? Like it's like 25 pages or some shit. It's nuts. I did a lot of research for this thing so that I could say simple sentences that I don't have to qualify a ton. And then the backup is in is like is in the sources section, you know,

because I think that otherwise it could really interrupt the flow. And I feel like it takes people out of the moment, like when I'm trying to talk about, for example, I have a chapter called child soldiers, that's all about like military violence, and what it does to men and boys who I would argue are kind of preyed upon to to commit it right to to enact it. And when I when I say something like the United States has one of the most violent militaries ever known. Like, I don't want to have to cite 700 studies about all of that, like in the text, I'm like, you can accept that as a fact. And if you don't believe me, go to the back of the book, you can see where I got that from, and then keep coming with me. But I don't want to stop readers in their tracks with all this data, because then it's not it's not readable. The whole point is that you should be able to sit down with this book and not really want to stop reading it.

Pete Slauson And it's a collection of essays, correct? Pete Slauson Yeah. Pete Slauson And then, is there any memoir stuff in there? Pete Slauson For sure. Pete Slauson Okay. Pete Slauson Yeah. Pete Slauson So, kind of a spinning of your tales and stories of life and upbringing and then essays on some of your thoughts on all that

experience. Jared Slauson Yeah. So, I mean, one of the, one of the memoiristic essays that's in there, it's the second essay in the book, it's called Cat Calls, because part of what one of my sort of main arguments in the book is like, as feminists, we need to spend more work building compassion and empathy for what men are going through right now. And we don't like need to do that to, you know, be to be good so much as that's what you should do if you care about your own heart, right? You have to understand and come to a place of compassion for someone who's been hurting you. That's the only way to retake your power and to and to also help them potentially heal. So I talked about how the chapter cat calls kind of drives all that home because I don't

want people to think that like, I had that I'm just like saying this without having done it in some pretty intense circumstances. And you know, when I was 22, I did a lot of college grads do and I moved to New York City and I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm in New York. I'm in the big apple time to live my big queer dream life, you know, and put on my little put on my little, you know, like pencil skirt for my first day at work at this like business consulting firm that I was going to and you know, go to get on the subway and this you know, this dude like full on spits on me just says fuck you

and spits on me like on the street as i'm about to like go down the stairs wow and that began i mean a was really on the nose because it's just damn my first day of work like that's how you'd write it in the shitty movie version you know if i were giving notes on that script i would say wait a few days jesus christ let the character get established before you take them down you know give them a day or two at work shit isn't that New York though? I mean, they mug you and tell you to go fuck yourself the first day. Yeah, New York has to break you and it does it fast.

But so, you know, from that, I sort of talk about how, you know, I thought New York was going to be this place where I could be who I was and be myself. And it's no, it was a hell of like catcalling and street harassment that like, you know, had a threat of real violence behind it. Like it's pretty dangerous to walk around New York city as an openly gender nonconforming person. Yeah. I mean, it's not like there are certain neighborhoods where it might, one

could argue it's safer, but like people still hate crime all the time. Like there are still like people still get attacked on the street for being perceived as different. Yeah. It's not, you know, it's not often talked about as much, but you, you can just get fucked up late at night still, you know, or, and, and I got really in my head and scared about that because it like, cause it was really scary. I mean, I don't know if Chris,

if you've ever sat on a subway car and had two men loudly discuss how they wanted to set you on fire, but that literally happened to me. Like just one Saturday, you know, mostly minor ex girlfriends that want to set me, you, but that literally happened to me. Like just one Saturday. Pete Slauson Mostly mine are ex-girlfriends that want to set me on fire. Jared Slauson You know? I mean, I think we all been there in some way, shape or form. Pete Slauson We all, yeah. But no, I mean, I, I, I, you're kind of piercing a bit of a misbelief that I've always had that, you know, New York is kind of, is kind of more friendly to a lot of alternative lifestyles and a lot, you know, everybody in New York is kind of more friendly to a lot of alternative lifestyles.

You know, everybody in New York is alternative. You walk down the street, everybody's fucking weird. It's like everyone's different, everyone's got different flavors. It is a melting pot of a ton of different people, you know, and with a lot of different ideas. And they're all stacked on top of each other. I was born and raised in people, you know, and with a lot of different ideas, and they're all stacked on top of each other. I was born and raised in LA, you know, we have 12 million people, it's a lot of people,

but they're all spread out and it's similar if you've ever seen jokes about California. Oh, for sure, I mean, I lived in Los Angeles for the last seven years, like I know the vibe. But so where the chapter goes, right, is I talk about how hard that was, I mean, that shit fucked me up, like feeling like I was being preyed upon in public right and I was just I was pretty convinced I was like one day someone's and also this was a decade ago right

like this was that's a different historic time you know like like we were way things were way different a decade ago um and I was convinced I was like I don't know when but sometimes someone's just gonna someone's gonna have had a real bad day and some dudes going to fucking try me with a knife or some shit, you know? Like it's just, it's a matter of time until I get attacked and I become some statistic. There are statistics for that where transgender and people like yourself get, get attacked and killed. I mean that, that, that does happen.

Yeah. And people were talking about it a lot and it was a lot. And it was going on a lot when I was in sort of the era that I was living in New York. And what I had to learn, and it took a long time, but what I, and the essay really spells it out beautifully. You'll have to read the book. But what I learned through that process was like, at first, I just really hated these men who were making my life terrible. I just hated them and hating them got me nowhere because hating them just made me feel worse. Hating them made me feel like it made it, it made it, it made it feel scarier. It made the stakes feel higher.

It made me feel like I had no path to ever living a good life that I, that there was no way to ever solve this. You know, it made the problem feel completely intractable. And at a certain point, and I talk about it in the essay, like my, my family was on reality television for a very brief moment. Um, you ever heard of the show true life, that MTV series? I might've, I didn't, I kind of dis a series that like, it was like iconic for like kids in my generation.

And then they like still kind of making it. They're like making a few episodes once in a blue moon. And yeah, and they did one called the true life. I'm genderqueer. And it centered on like me and another person. And they interviewed my dad for it. And my dad, you know, was struggling, still struggling to kind of be at peace with having a really gender fabulous kid. And you know, and I'm like, I'm pretty great. I like it. Like, yeah, you know, I'm self-aware in that sense. But you know, he said something in the interview, like, I don't know how your dad is or was, but I feel like sometimes dads, like they just don't, they won't, you will have a neighbor

over for dinner and you'll hear a story they've never told you in their entire life. I don't know if my dad ever did that. He did get married a second time and he lived like a whole different life with other people for 10 years. And then when I went to his funeral, I was like, what the fuck are all these pictures? Yeah. Who are you? Yeah.

I feel like it's like you get your dad around a different- Why do you have pictures of my dad? Right. But so, I mean, my dad, he would just randomly, because he was like really, he was like a social butterfly. He was very bubbly. He would just open up when he was talking to anybody. And so he, you know, he would never said these things to me, but in front of a documentary crew, there's

like this random producer asking questions about his kid. And he just, he finally says something I'd never heard him say, which is that he's just really scared for me all the time. Oh, that it's like, that it's scary to have a kid that he was scared for me in the same way I was scared for myself. And I was like, Oh, and sort of, and I think that really reframed something for me. Cause then I have this moment where I was like, what if I think about the men who are cat calling me and harassing me as like people who are witnessing something that is bring, like it's something about me defying the rules of gender is bringing up something deep for them.

Yeah. It's right. Like it's something, something about how they had their own gender, you know, fucked with as a, as a kid, something about how they have been hurt by the requirement to be man enough or whatever, right. And me watching me be free and live my life freely makes them feel really scared. I think and also brings up this dude, I don't get to be free. Why the fuck do you get to be free?

Nah, fuck you. You know, And I think, I think, I mean, there's a lot of the psychology, like you say, the projection of insecurities and stuff like that. But also, you know, people, you know, innately, I think this is human nature, when they don't understand something, when it's either purview or education, they don't, they react violently to it sometimes, at least I can. So, I think, yeah, I think that, you know, instead of, you know, this is what we need to do and this is why we do the podcast and I think you talk about this book, you know,

we need to understand one another more and when we see something different, we need to do and this is why we do the podcast and I think you talked about this book, you know, we need to understand one another more and when we see something different, we need to not point fingers or go, what the hell is that? I think some of that is a natural fight or flight reaction that's at the core of our human nature, but it's inappropriate because we're supposed to be, we're not supposed to be animals, we're supposed to be beings that have a conscience that can be like, okay, why do I feel like I'm in fight or flight or mode? And why do I not understand this thing that I've seen maybe before? Although, you know, people have been gay throughout history.

So you go, okay, let me learn more about this. And you know, a lot of people have that sort of, you know, what's George Carlin said it best I think I've done the average person is and realize 50% of them are dumber than that I don't know if I can view humanity quite that way shit that's dark you how old are you I'm 33 but I'm 57 I pretty smart I have processed more people than you have I'm 57 that's That's true. Lester, I can't fight that. Sorry. I'm just pulling the card on you. That was inappropriate there.

Sorry, Jake. No, it's pulling the Clint Eastwood. Get off my lawn and card. No, I, I don't know. Maybe at 57, I'm more jaded and have less faith in humanity because I've seen so much of it pass before me. But I don't know. I mean, I really like what you said though about, you know, it's like when,

when you see something that triggers fight and fight or flight in you being like, wait, give me a second. Can I maybe, is there something I should be learning from this instead? Right? Like, is there a way that I can pause that reaction and try to interrogate it and try to think differently about the person in front of me? And I say that because that actually has to apply both ways. Because there are times where I see men, and there have been times in my life where I see men because of my own baggage

and my own sort of lived experience and my own trauma and shit, right? There have been times where I see a certain type of man, and I have fight or flight, right? And, and I stopped seeing him as a human being. And I start seeing him as, you know, this thing I'm told men like him are supposed to be. And I started to really notice myself doing that. And I was like, if I'm not practicing what I preach here, right, if I'm not trying to understand the humanity of men differently, if I'm not trying to look back and try to connect with the people

that I sort of like spent a while of my life fleeing and be like yo, dude I learned some stuff if I'm not gonna look back to and connect then how can I expect the world to change and for us? To all advance right men are not disposable men are not They're not optional men are a foundational part of the world and we have to love and care for men We have to it's not and we have to love and care for men. We have to. Pete Slauson Yeah. Jared Slauson And we forget that sometimes, I think. Pete Slauson Definitely. You know, a rising tide lifts all boats. There's two different

types of thinking in the world. So, there's either scarcity thinking where everybody can be like, I want what I want, I just want to, I just want to, you know, take everything from me and take care of me. And that's not how we live. I mean, we're on a giant survivor boat in the middle of the universe. And if we all want to start kicking holes in the boat, we're all going to sink together. And yeah, our rising tide lifts all boats. I mean, we are designed, both men, women, and beings in the feminine and masculine. We're designed to be compliments to each other and fill each other's gaps of what we're not. And that's just how human nature has developed over time. There's an old saying from Abraham Lincoln,

I don't like that man, I must get to know him better. And so- I have not heard that. And honestly, I wish that I had heard that quote before I published the damn book because there's a little quote section at the front and that one would be, that would have really slapped Chris. Sorry. You should have done the podcast for your first book. Yeah. Seriously. What was my publicist thinking? What was your PRon I was actually thinking I should call you on that and I just got lost in all the work that I do. But no, you're right, we need to take

care of each other. One hot topic, I don't usually do debate shows and hot topic shows, but I suppose we can touch on one viral thing that seems to be popular in conversation. You know, we recently had Men's Mental health month and we saw a lot of TikToks of women just celebrating men's suicide, women's suicide, or men's mental health issues. I got to tell you, I run big dating groups online of thousands of people that, I got to look up who wrote that article, but there was an article written that said there was a male loneliness epidemic because eighty-five% of men aren't interested in dating women right now. And I have a 5,000 dating group, but all the numbers I've pulled equal that, all the other

data I see online equals that. And they love just whipping men online with that sort of context. In fact, they pull it out pretty ugly on social media. I don't know if you want to speak to some of those issues going on because you, you know, maybe this is part of your book on essays. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to address that because I think it really does matter. First off, men's mental health is like, beyond important, right? I think, I think we need to probably, if we quintupled the resources we were dedicating to men's mental health tomorrow, it would still not be enough. Because that's about how many resources we're dedicating right? I recently for example, I recently started I started lifting recently, Chris. back and I just was like, dude, you gotta like you, like you gotta, you just gotta do something to see if maybe your body can like maybe if your arms can lift stuff a little better, then maybe your

back will have to do so much and you'll be like, I don't know, able to walk better. I don't know. Like I was just like, you gotta get ahead of this. And it's interesting because I'm like, you know, at the gym and there's, you know, there's, it's not, I mean, there's lots of women at the gym I go to too, but it's such a space where I'm like, I see men getting together. And I'm just like, what a missed opportunity for mental health resources, right? Like what the gyms we literally have so many places where people where men are gathering, where we're not even bothering to try to, you know, like, I'm like, I had this vision the other day, it was like a shower thought.

And I was like, what I want to live in a world where at the gym and like the men's locker room, they have a little like flyer that's hey, like muscle dysmorphia is a real thing. If you're like feeling weird, you know, be careful around like your body and ensure that you know, you're getting help if you're dealing with that. Because it's muscle dysmorphia, muscle dysmorphia, it's, it's, it's, I mean, it's a, it's a subhoot of body dysmorphia in general, which is, so body dysmorphia is a clinical condition where you literally cannot see your body accurately anymore because of insecurity.

Your insecurity is so deep, you can't see your body accurately anymore. And so muscle dysmorphia- Is that why people, sorry to interrupt you again. No, keep going. I'm just trying to lay a foundation for everyone. So is that where, I think it's bulimia and, and other sort of issues come out of that dysphoria? Yeah. And so one of the, one of the really under discussed,

but increasingly being talked about sort of manifestations of body dysmorphia in, in, it's not only in men, but it's predominantly in men is called muscle dysmorphia, which is like, is when men like get so get so in their head about the size of their muscles, that like, they will never be big enough. And it's and it starts to be like, it's a it's a I mean, it's you know, it's an obsessive type of thinking pattern. And it's a depressive type of thinking pattern, where no matter how, how much you work out, it's never enough. And you can't see your body accurately

anymore, you will stand next to someone who is equally big as you and your brain literally cannot see your body as as big as theirs. You can only fixate on your flaws. You cannot see what is good about your body. It's a type of insecurity that's really intense and it's extremely prevalent. Gyms are where it festers, right? And I'm just sitting here thinking and it can turn into, I mean, you know, people who are struggling with dysmorphia, who can't look at their bodies. I mean, people struggling with dysmorphia who can't look at their bodies. I mean, people with muscle dysmorphia, like dudes with that, sometimes they can't like look in the mirror.

You know, they like like it gets really clinical pretty quickly. And you know, people who are suffering with that, but don't know, and don't have any language around it and aren't getting any support and aren't getting any help, you know, and don't even aware that there's a problem. They think everyone looks at their body with that much hatred, you know, like, they end up really suffering. And it's, it sounds, you know, it's hard to make sense of because we're looking at people who oftentimes have like, really stacked bodies. But but but it's, it's kind of like this

addiction to trying to make it perfect. And it never will be for you. And so it's an issue with in men's mental health, but I'm like, that should be a national conversation. We should be having, I shouldn't have had to tell you the muscle dysmorphia exists. Pete Slauson Do you think a lot of steroid users, you know, those guys who kind of, I don't want to say overcompensate because I mean, there are people that competitively do it. I mean, and you've seen, you know, examples of people that, you know, it helps their lives, Sylvester Stallone,

Arnold Schwarzenegger. But clearly, I used to own a modeling agency, so I know my models fairly well. And I used to see a lot of that insecurity with them and a lot of roid use. So I don't know if those two are connected or what are your thoughts on that? Oh, for sure. Yeah. Steroid use is one of the main indicators of someone who's, who's really suffering like with dysmorphia and you know,

and, and what you need is like a therapeutic approach. The answer isn't just get your biceps a little bigger and then you'll be happy. It doesn't work. What you have to do is you have to learn to look at your biceps and say they are enough, you know? And I feel like so many men in general, if there's one thing that I would, I'm like that I'm like, I hope men take from this book, it's just dude, you're already enough. You know, I feel like masculinity, there's this part I

write about, like, at the very end, the epilogue of the book is just like a letter, it's just a letter called Dear Men. And it's just me writing to men being like, yo, let's talk. And like, the main thing that I feel is I'm just like, so much of masculinity in America has just become gamified. And it's like this competition to be the best and the most all the time. Not that that's what masculinity is inherently, but I think that's what a bad version of it has become. Yeah. So an example of just, you know, I would agree with you there, because I see that in women too, in dating and counseling for dating, is when I talk to them about how they identify

masculinity, women have a higher problem with this because they have to experience things with emotion. I can look in a room of men and figure out, you know, I have that masculinity tribal leader sort of thing where I can look at men, I can tell you kind of who they are, you know, I have that masculinity tribal leader sort of thing where I can look at men, I can tell you kind of who they are, their experience, I can tell you character. I can tell you a lot just by watching someone in a very short period of time because I'm designed as a man to know who qualifies in the hierarchy of my tribe, meritocracy, all this sort of stuff.

In my conversation with women, a lot of times the only masculinity they can see are those indicators of muscles and what a man looks like. There's studies and data on this. Women will look for cut jaws, certain points of their ovary process. They'll look for fatter jaws at different times of their period. There's kind of a thing where they do that. But a lot of them don't really know what sort of character that man has until they go in and experience it, which is kind of a challenge for women.

As men, I can identify stuff. We're designed to be providers and protectors, so we have this inherent nature to be able to recognize danger better. And yeah, that's one of the problems that I see in dating right now is when I talk to him and I'll be like, how do you know he's masculine? Well, he works out and goes to the gym. He's got a lot of muscles and he looks really good. And I'm like, do you have any, can you, can, I can read room and I can read people on character

just by watching how they move. Maybe I spend more time reading people. It's like a CIA profile. I think we know that, dude. But yeah, I think it's a big issue where, yeah, maybe we have too much in society said men equal muscles or masculinity equals muscles. And there's so much more that goes into it. Some of the most masculine men in the world, many people had them as fathers, weren't super muscular dudes.

I've had conversations with women about this too. They're like, yeah, my dad was really masculine, but he wasn't like a muscular dude. He just engendered the aspects of masculinity, provided the protective stoicism, the high emotional intelligence, non-reactionary, et cetera, et cetera. Any thoughts you want to throw in some of that data? I mean, I feel like some of I feel like some of what you said, I think we just we disagree on a few things, which that's okay. One thing that I'm trying to do with this book and trying to do just in general, I'm like, look, we're like spiraling into fascism real fast. And I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't fucking like it. You know, I'm like, I like

I like some basics. It never ends well. It's not good. Historically, it doesn't feel good. Um, so I'm like, you know, part of one that one of the things that I'm really trying to do in my own work is to be like, look, oh, someone said something that I don't fully agree with. But that's not the main point we need to focus on what we can build together. You know, I'm more interested in figuring out how we build together. But I also just want to want to mark just like a few things are I was like, okay, I'm not sure about that. And then I want to move to like, where I think we really agree and have like real alignment. And that's like where we can do the good work together. You know what I mean? I think like some of the some of the I I take issue with some of the idea around like the

inherent differences between men and women. And so much as I don't the when when I look at the data, like, I don't think that, I think that there are biological differences, I'm not saying those don't exist. But I don't think that they, I think so much of the, of what we consider to be inherent is like, how we've been coached to be and how we've been trained to be and how we've been raised to be. And, and I'm not saying that it doesn't feel inherent, because who you're raised to be feels inherent to you, right? If you were raised Christian, it feels inherent, you know, it feels like this is somehow you who you were born to be right? And I'm like, yeah, but if you grew up in a Muslim family, it might feel the same way to you to be Muslim, like, you know, and I don't say that I just say it as a thought experiment, because I think sometimes this idea of this idea that testosterone and estrogen like fundamentally change how you relate to the world and all

this stuff like, and the idea of differences between men and women, I think it can lead us down a more adversarial path in terms of like how we relate to one another, or at least it can lead us to like, to wanting to feel distinct when maybe some of our similarities are more important, you know, and I say that as someone like I am right smack dab in the middle of all of that shit, you know, like, I am super girly in a lot of ways I am also like, totally an asshole in a way that I think one could say is very masculine, right, you know, like I feel like I'm, I'm very like, and loud in a way that people are like, yeah, you were raised as a man. And I'm just kind of like, you know, sorry, I don't have to tell you, you know, but I've never been able to hold my wrist straight from a whole life. You know what I mean? There's, I feel like I'm a blend. Like I live sort of in this middle space. And I feel like part of my job is to be a bridge, right. And to sort of be like,

Hey, you know, like, I understand that there are differences and they, and they are like real, but focusing on what's what we have in common, I feel like is what's going to help us get through this moment in history, at least. Pete Slauson And I like what you talk about in your book, having compassion, having, I can't spell, I guess it's Monday, I learned how to read shit. You talk about compassion, empathy, as the forces that will lead men and us all to a brighter future. Rising tide lifts all boats. I mean, men and women's fates are connected to each other. We can't live with them and each other. And this kind of mentality that you see online

of attacking other people, you know, you can't, we can't, if you eliminate men or if you eliminate all women, we know what happens if you eliminate all women. The species dies, but technically the species would die too if you eliminated all men. Yeah. Yeah. We come to an end really quick as the dodo bird extinction. One of the things you talk about is a case for rethinking and ultimately retiring counterproductive terms like toxic, masculinity masculinity and male privilege.

Tell us about that. You know, it's a nuanced conversation, right? And part of why I wrote a whole book about it is because I needed to put it in writing, right? You really, I'll give the Cliff Notes version in a podcast, but don't fight me on it until you've actually read the essay. Because, you know, there's a reason why I write books. and it's because some things you just can't say as easily as some things need like a longer explanation and like a real death you want people to read something in 2020 I do god damn it I'm like you need to put your damn phone

down put that little get that little rectangle out of your damn hand and pick up a bigger rectangle this made of trees now you're the crew to Lennie sweat old man screaming, get off my lawn straight up. Because I'm like, look, do you want your brain to work again? Pick up a fucking book. I mean, Jesus Christ, like you cannot your brain will. You cannot heal your brain by looking at your phone. It's just not possible. Like all these people who are like, we make apps for mental health.

I'm like, if it's on your phone, I don't think I believe it. Put your damn phone down and pick up something else. Anyway, but yeah, I, I, you know, I had a lot of, I've been thinking a lot about the term, the term toxic masculinity and how I use it. Right. And, and what, what I realized about it is just like, the entire term turned into this game of telephone that went really wrong. Because the way, the way that when I first learned about the term toxic masculinity in a fairly sort of intellectual way, like in college, right. Um, I feel what I was, what, what it was originally meant to mean is like the idea,

it was meant to imagine for people to imagine like toxic masculinity, which a is not all masculinity, right? Tox people to imagine like toxic masculinity, which a is not all masculinity Right talks like masculinity and toxic masculinity Toxic masculinity is supposed to refer only to a sub like the parts of masculinity that are bad for everybody men included Right, like, you know, like being super violent, you know and being encouraged to be super violent like that's bad for men and for women. That's bad for everybody. And what was meant is for people to understand it like lead paint, right? Where men are the painters who are being asked to

wield the lead paint, right, and have to in order to do their job. And then the and then everyone else who isn't painting with the lead paint is asked to live in the rooms that are painted with lead. And it's, yeah, everybody gets fucked up by the lead, you know, and no one's doing well in a world like the painters are doing badly and the people who live in the houses they painted are doing badly. And, and I think that what you can see from that idea is that it's not saying that there's anything inherently bad about men. Right? It's like toxic masculinity was intended to be this idea about there are parts of masculinity that have been that men are

being asked to hold inhabit enact that are bad for men and bad for for women that are bad for everybody that are and what that term but but that's not how we understand the term anymore. Right? Trying to explain it in those terms, I can see your eyes glazing over as we're having the conversation. I'm not glazing. I'm actually reading where it originated from on chat GPT. Oh, but it's you know, I look like I'm glazing. Just that or I mean, maybe I'm glazing over trying to explain this abstract ass metaphor, right? It's so much work to even explain what the metaphor fucking means. And you can see why as a tool of mass public communication, a term that is a suggestion of a metaphor

is super reliable to misinterpretation. Pete Slauson Yeah. And it's a broad painting of whatever, I guess. You know, I mean, this gets painted on, you know, a lot of people have broad stroke of, and it becomes, instead of being an educational axiom, it becomes a whipping post. You know, you know. Jared Slauson And what it's turned into is the idea that like all, that, that, that masculinity itself is toxic, which was never what it was meant

as. It was meant that there are parts of it that are bad for everybody. And those parts, let's look at those parts and decide if we wanna keep them. But what it's turned into is just, oh, it's super reductive, it's oversimplified. And I think that what, I think what young men, especially young men who are chronically online, which is basically all young men now,

I think what young men have heard in through this bad, this this game of telephone that went really badly is that like, they are inherently toxic. Yeah. And I'm like, we cannot build a future that's good for everybody. If our if one of our major terms is leading young men to believe that we think they are inherently toxic, young men are not inherently that we think they are inherently toxic. Young men are not inherently toxic. Masculinity is not inherently toxic. Pete Slauson Yeah. And it looks like it originated by a guy named Robert Bly. Jared Slauson Yeah. Yeah. I quote him in the beginning of

my book. He's a really interesting thinker. Pete Slauson I would say so. I don't know much about this, so I can't really speak to it. But it looks like he wanted to return to authentic masculinity through mythology, poetry, and men's retreats. Mythology and poetry, that's feminine. So- But not how Robert Blythe did it, not how he thought about it. Really?

I'll have to learn more about him. And also poetry is not feminine, historically speaking. Poetry is like across, everybody did poetry. Yeah, I suppose the original Stoics, maybe you could call some of their work poetry. Yeah, like, yeah, like, I mean, ancient Greeks, half of the philosophers were writing poems too, you know. Poetry is, I think the idea of poetry is feminine. That's super modern. Yeah. I'll have to learn more about him. I'm going to look into this further. Can I tell you, can I read you the quote from the beginning that I used from him?

Yeah. He who is truly a man keeps walking, dragging his guts behind. Yeah, that's probably, this feels pretty true. Right. And I'm like, yo, that's not a good way. That's not a good way for anybody to live. We got to, we got to heal that shit. You know, don't drag your guts behind you.

Like you got to heal. I want to help. You know, the, the aspect of men and women, the journey's different. I had a gal on a few months ago who does a lot of counseling for men. And she, there was something I, we were talking about and I presented it as, as very ugly. It's a very ugly aspect for men. You know, I think one of the best ways I've heard it, women start at the top of the mountain. They're valued very early in youth and we value women in their youth and beauty because of their ability to have children at a very young age and at a very healthy stage. The older women get, the harder it is for them to have children, the harder

it is for them to have successful pregnancies, etc., etc. And so, as a society, you're a bio- not a society, that's wrong. Biology, biologically, I can't say anything today, evidently, on Monday. Biologically, we seek out women for fertility, because of their youthful nature. And it's very young, we vault them, we celebrate them. I mean, you know, there's no one 50 years old on the Miss America tour. They do have Miss Moms and stuff like that, I guess too. But they're celebrated for their femininity. They're valued. I mean, even as a man, just to hear the term women and children first, when the ship goes down, you're like, I guess, fuck us. I mean, we let it go because we're like providers

and protectors and we realize that protecting the womb is the most important part to the succession of propagation of species and that's all we do is live to propagate the species really. And, but it's dark. It's a dark reality to live with. You know, men and women, children and pets are loved unconditionally.

Men are not. We have to earn our place in the world. The best analogy I've ever heard is women start at the top of the mountain and they're measured by how far they fall. Men start in the valley, worthless, and they have to climb up the mountain. They're measured by how well they climb up the mountain and contribute to society. Most men's value peaks around 50 or 60. It's when we earn our most money, it's when we're most successful, it's when we can contribute the most of the world. I mean, the reason we send young men off to war is because they're worthless. They're worthless in

a way that they can't contribute to society. They have no skills, they have no value, and plus they can do war better than us because they're young and, you know, 50, I can't carry an 80 pound rucksack. But you know, so it's a dark place that men have to kind of grow from where they have to realize that the world will whip them and kick them if they don't build themselves into something to contribute. And that's our hero's journey as men. We go through a hero's journey. Women don't.

They're given their value at birth and in young age. Now they get very angry when they start losing that value as they age because we value the womb and we value fertility at its highest peak. And you know, she was commenting to me, she goes, you know, your outlook's kind of dark. And I'm like, that doesn't negatively affect me. I just see the reality of it and the logic and reason of it where it's not fun. It's not fun to be worthless in your 20s and on your tribe. Everyone goes, are you the newb who doesn't know anything at the office?

And you have to build something yourself and make something of yourself. And then finally at 40s and 50s, you finally mastered yourself and make something yourself. And then finally at like forties and fifties, you finally mastered yourself in life, if you've done the work. And it's, it's an ugly, bloody, vicious process that shapes you, but it is our hero's journey. And in the end, you know, people love us at 40, 50 and 60. We're really great. And I guess, you know, the, the question I have for, I mean, a, yeah, that is dark, dude.

It does feel dark, but that's the reality. You know, this is the universe. When I think about, like, when I think about what I, when I think about, you know, why, part of why I was like, I can't do this. I can't do this, like manhood masculinity shit. Like when I was just like, I got to get out of this rat race. I was just like, I can't live my life like that. That's too dark for me. Right? I just can't I don't want to I don't want to I I protest, right? That's kind of, but I also just think I mean, the world doesn't have to be like that. And I'm not I don't say that is I'm not saying that the world that that that makes the world like soft or whatever or whatever so much as I'm thinking like, I want people to feel like everyone should feel valued at every point in their life. Like people are inherently valuable, everyone is valuable. And I don't say that in a Pollyanna ish like stupid way that is a deep, deeply true thing. Everyone in your community is valuable for different reasons. Everyone brings something to the table. And I don't any, I don't, I think a world in which young men feel they have no value is a world in which we failed them. Yeah. And that's kind of where we're at now. And we got to fix it. Young men have value and I care deeply for them. And I don't, I'm

not, I'm not down to keep living in a world where you got to wait to 40 to feel valued. I don't want to live in that world. I mean, I mean, there's different aspects of value. I mean, certainly we value people that go off to war. But the reason we send them off to war is because they don't have any other applicable skills in society. They, men are always expendable. And that's the reason they say women and children first, and men die on the ship. I mean, that's just the way it is. Can I propose a thought about the women and men, the women and children first bit?

I'm like, whenever people talk about that, I'm just like, okay, so what you just told me is that there weren't enough lifeboats. Yeah, that's true. No, like straight up, dude. I mean, I mean that on a profound existential spiritual level, like, like straight up when it comes to the Titanic, I'm like, first off, why did we decide that it is acceptable to send people into the middle of the ocean ever without enough lifeboats for everyone to get off of the fucking vessel if it sinks? That is ridiculous. That makes no fucking sense. We should all just say no, just say no to that. Say no to a world where because we it's not like we don't have the resources to build the lifeboats. Pete Slauson Well, sometimes there's not time to displace everyone on the boat. The boats take up more. Jared Slauson Well, sure, if there's not time, but like, time was sort of like, it was capacity that was the issue with the Titanic as far as I understand it.

Pete Slauson Oh, yeah, definitely. Jared Slauson And as far as, if you have to choose, by the moment at which you don't have enough capacity to like, for everyone to be saved, like you have already failed everyone right and you've set up a world where people are gonna feel valueless and you're gonna create that i don't want to live in that world build enough fucking lifeboats the other thing is in the context of that titanic specifically and in general is like if your ship sank sometimes it is just legitimately and hurt legitimately an accident.

But it wasn't in the case of the Titanic, and it isn't in a lot of cases. It was an engineering failure, and it was about the hubris and recklessness of the people who ran that ship and wanted to send it to ocean way before it was ready and pretended that it was invulnerable and didn't put enough lifeboats on it

because they were too cocky about their stupid little design and thought it was gonna be perfect. Yeah, and probably more interested in making money. And we see that now where people are more interested in making money and they ship stuff, whether it's like that's the world we're living in on mass. Like we are currently living in the Titanic where we live in this world designed by three greedy fucking men who are terrible, right.

Who are just saying, oh, it has to be women and children first because we're sinking and it's dude, you made the boat. We don't have to be in this situation. Pete I think that's been an accident before the Titanic though. Pete Sure. Pete But, you know, I mean, we value the womb. I mean, when you really understand human nature, in my opinion, everything is about the propagation of the species. The cars we buy, the things we do. It's all about the propagation of the species and making the species survive. And as men, I mean, we're, you know, part of us not being, not getting

unconditional love is that's what the hero's journey that shapes us into masculinity and being men. It's the hammer to the anvil of the blacksmith. It shapes us as a sword and thereby we can give more back to society. And you know, we do the toughest jobs in the world. We are the foundation, as you said, of this thing. If you got rid of us, there'd be no one doing the sewer jobs, the internet wires into the world jobs, the mining jobs. You know, everything that this world is founded on, that everybody sits around and air conditioning enjoys,

is done by 99% men. And the hard, ugly, sweaty, nasty jobs, you know, you still see that 99% of men do these jobs. And they are the infrastructure foundational support for these things. And we do them because we're providing for families, we're providing for the propagation of the species. Is it a fun job? No, not really. If you really look at it from the outside, you're like, this seems ugly. As a man, I would love unconditional love. I get it from my dog because that's why they call it man's best friend. Is that the only place you get unconditional love in your life? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Dude, we got to work on that. Where else can I get it?

Your friends, man. Oh, no, no. Dude, your friends are supposed to love you like your family's supposed to love you. Someone's I mean, no, my family. I mean, we got to do better. We got to get Chris boss some fucking unconditional love, y'all. OK, there's there's no such thing as unconditional. No, I have it.

I have a lot of it. I'll take your word for it. But I like living in a world where I feel a lot of unconditional love, you know? Like, but I feel like, but that's the thing. It's I'm like a world where people think it's acceptable for to just, I'm like, nah, you gotta, everyone deserves more love. And this idea of manhood, like this is, I mean, it's, it's the core of what I'm talking about. This idea that being a man means living without unconditional love. I'm just like, I don't

like, I don't like that. I don't think that that's how people should live. I think everyone deserves to be loved unconditionally. Pete Slauson A lot of it comes down to biology, how we've developed as human nature over eons of time. So, Jared Slauson What do you mean? How does biology mean you don't need unconditional love? Pete I mean, there's just reasons for it. I mean, to us, the womb is the most valuable thing in the world, propagation of the species. It's vaulted over everything. We serve it. Pete But why does that mean you don't need unconditional love?

Pete It's because – Pete You're not disposable, dude. Pete I mean, we actually are. Pete No, you aren't. You're here. You're not disposable. If you're here, you actually are really you are you're here You're not disposable if you're here, you're not disposable if you're here. We need you So is another man a curb place me according judging by what I see in dating. Evidently. There's plenty of men I don't think I think I think I think you are not replaceable. I don't think people have replaced easily I mean, I would agree with you on the aspect of human beings and caring about one another,

et cetera, et cetera. But when push comes to shove, I mean, most men in our protective aspects will save a woman who's a stranger. You find a woman who's being raped, beaten, or attempted murder on the street, we'll jump in and put our life on the line for that woman. We're protecting the woman. And we don't even know who she woman. We're protecting the womb and we don't even know who she is. We're just like, we're men. This is what we do. It's been built into our nature for that reason.

But I still just don't understand why that means you don't need unconditional love and deserve it. I mean, I would like to have it. It would be a nice luxury, but It's not a luxury, dude. Dude, unconditional love is not a luxury. Like, we got to get rid of, I think that's what I'm saying. I feel like we have so many men and boys who are growing up in this manosphere being taught that unconditional love is a luxury product. I'm like, unconditional love is not a fucking Fendi bag. It's not a fucking like supreme, you know, hoodie, right?

Like, unconditional love, it's not Gucci shoes, right? Like, unconditional love is like what you, what everyone needs, everyone deserves. So how would you measure unconditional love? I think it's about people who are willing to love you even when you're fucking up. It's about people who are willing to let you learn, people who are willing to let you make mistakes and see, still see the best in you. And you know, I mean, and also, I'm okay acknowledging that a teeny bit because I'm sure there's gonna be like, I know that there's a lot of people who, I mean, I'm like, at times I can be pretty depressive myself, right? You know, I'm, I know I sound super optimistic, but I can be pretty like dark, you'll you can read it in the book. But I'm like, you know, I'm okay acknowledging that the idea of the perfect unconditional love doesn't exist. But I'm like, I am getting to 97% and 99% in some of my relationships. And that's I'll accept I'll round up to one at that point, you know, I'll round up to 100. No, I'm okay with I mean, I like I feel you know, I have friends where if I ended up in jail, they would still love me, you know. where if I ended up in jail, they would still love me, you know? And I just think everyone deserves that. And I don't want to live in a world where men don't think they deserve unconditional love. Chris, you deserve unconditional love and we got to get you some.

No one deserves anything. This is the universe. See, that's what I don't like that thinking. We deserve goodness. We deserve kindness. We deserve beauty. Like, we deserve a lot. Not in an entitled-to-it way, just in a you're on this planet and you're a human being and that's amazing. Pete It's a nice option. But no. Jared And we can provide for each other, which is why it's ridiculous that we don't. Like we have the technology to feed everybody, fucking feed everybody, come on.

You know? Pete I mean, there's a lot of good things we should do. But I'm glad you speak to this, you know. We've had authors on the show that are licensed psychologists, and 20, 25 years ago, they wrote books on what they were concerned about with young boys in schools and what they were seeing happening. And they wrote books entitled- I've read some of those, yeah. Yeah.

We've had some authors on the show that tie a lot of issues with what's going on with men now to school shootings, et cetera, et cetera. And there are issues that are going on with men. I mean, right now, I mean, I live in kind of a funny world where I run this huge dating group of 5,000 people. I poll, I counsel both men and women for dating. And one of the challenges is, you know, we have these women that have really attacked the toxic masculinity and men are bad, blah, blah, blah, you know, all this noise that

we hear on social media and in the media too as well. And just constantly shaming and belittling men and telling men that they're worthless, yet if men speak that way, then, you, then we're sexist misogynists. But the misandry that goes on against men, this is extraordinary. I mean, I've seen videos on TikTok of kill all men as a hashtag, scam all men. Yeah, that's sitting on five of me.

I've seen some of those. I've seen women literally posting videos on how to scam men for money and literally teaching each other. And these videos are in the trillions of views and probably billions of videos that have been made. And it's just been a whipping. And so 88% of men have pretty much said, we're not dating in the hetero community, we're

not dating and we're just not interested in. If a woman falls in our lap and she's the perfect angel, well, maybe we'll marry her, but other than that, they're not actually pursuing. And so what I've seen is all these women for the past, this weird 60 year experiment we've been doing to try and flip biology is to and basically take women and turn them into men because they're just doing masculine roles and they become more masculine than ever before. I mean, I just sometimes I go to a coffee with some women. I'm just like, I'm talking to another dude here. Here's another dude. It's not attractive to me.

Maybe she's just not the woman for you. No, that's not it. She's, there's a lot of dudes. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of guys who are, who like, like that's exactly that's their dream woman. It might be, you know, there's a lot of you to like a woman who's like in control and powerful and confident, you know what I mean? And then there's other people who are like, I want a little more of the Dom subby thing.

I want a little more of that. You know, like people, people just like different things. Yeah. That's where you come into the masculine and the feminine. What's the word I'm looking for? The opposition. So usually feminine men look for a masculine women and masculine men look for feminine women.

The there's, we, we look for that opposite to compliment us. So I think I'm, I can like sorta fucks with some of that, but only if we're living in a world where being a feminine man and being a masculine woman are like. Cool. I mean, people can do what they want. Yeah. But I feel like right now we don't live in a world where being perceived as a feminine man makes you safe or okay, you know? And I think that more feminine men need, like deserve safety and kindness and, you know, all that stuff too. And I think that if you find someone who isn't compatible with you, maybe it's not compatible. Pete Slauson Yeah. And so, what's happening with women

right now is I see women in their 40s and 50s who can't find the masculine men they're looking for. And I'm like, you've been screaming at men that their toxic masculinity is bad and they're shaming them for it. All men are bad. A lot of men ran off and left dating over the Me Too thing. And it started out as a very important moment to discuss those ideas and some of the worst people of it. But at the end of it, I think when people started waking up and going, this is becoming something that the original was not,

when men were just getting called out for bad dating. And I think when the actor is an Easter sees, I forget his name, I think he's on Parks and Recreation. As he's on Sorry. Or the Offer. He just took a bad date from a woman who was clearly playing to try and get a story and going after a Hollywood actor. It was just a bad date. She tried to turn it into a me too scenario. The victimhood competitions was out of control too.

But for men, women now are having a hard time finding the men they want at 40s, 50s. They're like, we're all the masculine men. And you're like, you told them that you shamed them into obscurity where they were told their masculine is bad. And now you want it? And then the other problem that women have in the future coming up, and I would say now too, from what I see when women talk to me, is a lot of Gen Zers have checked out and they're not, these men have been beaten down and shamed and they've seen so much ugliness in the dating pool that they're not going to college. And women hypergamously date up.

They're all going to college, the women are now more than ever, but they're not going to be able to find their hypergamous mates as they progress through life. And that's a real problem for women that's coming down the pike and I already see it in mass right now. It's crazy. Women are just like, where are all the good men? You see it online, they're always screaming, where are all the good men? You told them they were toxic, so they're off fishing, working on books and shit.

That was a lot, Chris. You just, that was a lot. I kind of did journey through a few times. That was a whole lot of stuff. And I'm like, I'm like, there were, and there, I have a lot of, so I'm, you know, and again, like, it's okay that we don't agree on everything right now. We don't have to. Like I definitely, like a lot of you said, I'm like, for me, I'm like, I don't

know if I like, I will also say, and I don't think this will come as a shock to you, I'm not an expert in heterosexual dating. So I do not know a ton about exactly how I can only sort of sympathize rather than empathize within the context of this conversation. But what I what I will say is, you know, I think, I think we're, I think we're scared to have a conversation on sort of like the feminist side about what young male loneliness means. I think we're scared to acknowledge that like loneliness is real and it really hurts. And that living a life where you feel you'll never find partnership,

where you feel you'll never get to get married, where you feel, you may not even feel, and I have a whole chapter on incels, like too, like I got a whole thing. But living a life where you feel that you may never even get to experience sexual intimacy while you're on planet earth, that is someone who's suffering.

And I don't think, and I think that we've rather than sort of looking at that suffering and saying, how do we make meaning of that? How do we, how do we work to create a world where that isn't happening? Because it is a problem. Like rather than taking that suffering seriously, we've dismissed it or just looked away because it made us too uncomfortable. And we turn on TikTok, I'm just being assaulted as a man. And that's the other thing is I'm like, dude, you got to get off TikTok, Chris. No, straight up. No, straight up. If you want to be a healthy man, you got everyone, everyone's gender

like is getting so fucked up by TikTok. Now, like everyone is just I just I'm watching people like spiral further and further into this oblivion on all sides of the equation. Like we're all falling off of our axis as a global community because of the predatory algorithms that are just trying to keep us broken. So we keep scrolling forever. Because that's their goal. I mean, that's one place where I'm like, I don't know if we have to agree on everything here. Because if you and I can just agree that every young man in America needs to get the fuck off of tik tok and talk to real human beings in their real goddamn life, because that is the only

way to learn actually live. And also because it's ridiculous to let a bunch of Chinese businessmen and and ridiculous to let Mark Zuckerberg fucking prey on your brain and your psyche to keep you a literal user of a drug, which is just the dopamine that you need every single time you go like this. Like, it's just like, I, it's part of why I can't bother be bothered to post much on Instagram anymore. Like I used to be like an influencer or whatever. I just can't be bothered to keep.

I don't want people here. Yeah, I would, I would totally agree with you. I mean, I'm a person who grew up, I'm a person who grew up in a world where, you know, we didn't have these things. And so to me, I still play a place, excuse me. I still place higher value on interpersonal relationships in human directness. People are like, what's the one thing that we can do to heal, like to solve the, sorry, I was glitching for a second.

What's the one thing we can do to heal the male loneliness epidemic? And I'm like, go outside, join a gym or an intramural sports thing and talk to people. Get off your fucking phone. Like your phone is because also it's just like, everyone has all these fucked up crazy ideas about gender now that are so intense and are based in they are picking the content that will make you keep coming back.

They're picking the stuff that's going to make your blood boil. Like when you open your phone, Chris, it's going to show you the most vile, awful thing it can find a woman saying because it knows that keeps you coming back. And that is not what almost in the real world actually think. But they do have good most videos on there. And that if only using that if it were designed in our best interest and it was just like, here's good music, enjoy. Here's some fun stuff about science. Have a good time. Then I'd be like, yay. But the moment that it picks up on an insecurity in your little brain, like for me, it'll just be like the moment it like sees how I respond to a video of a shirtless guy and like my

dysmorphia gets all triggered and I feel all ugly and I keep looking then it's oh, we're going to do that forever. Yeah, we're ugly forever. I I watched a snake video I'm not into snakes and fucking don't like them at all but I somehow I watched a snake video for a whole minute there was something interesting about whatever it was that it was the guy who's he's a vet I think or he runs a zoo and he's a trainer and so he's always pulling them out of shelves and they're falling on the floor and yeah you know and all this shit and so I's always pulling them out of shelves and they're falling on the floor and yeah, you know and all the shit and so I I watched him just for the gee whiz of that dude's gonna get his face bit and

And now I have an algorithm with a bunch of snakes and I'm like, I don't even like snakes I'm like I hate fucking snakes like reprogram reprogram. You're right. We need to get out We need to enter an interpersonal more and I love your thesis of you know, rising tide lifts all boats We need to think from abundance instead of scarcity. We're all on this boat together, flying through the universe that's cold, ugly, and doesn't like, it's a game of survival really when it comes down to a species.

We gotta survive together, because we're always marbled together. Exactly, yeah. You start punching holes in the boat, we're all gonna sink, which is kind of interesting. Our politics is working right now. Final thoughts as we go out. Final pitch to people to pick up your book.

I got an edgy. OK, first off, if you like, if you identify as a feminist, please pick up this book. Please, please, please. If you give any shits about any of the young men in your life, please pick up this book. If you are a man and you give a shit about yourself and you feel like feminists stopped talking to you or caring about you forever ago, please pick up this book. And also my, just the thought that I'm like, damn, I wish, cause this conversation has been interesting, right?

It's challenged me in some places. It's made me uncomfortable a few times. That's okay. I'm growing, I'm learning. You're growing, you're It's challenged me in some places. It's made me uncomfortable a few times. That's okay. I'm growing. I'm learning. You're growing. You're learning. We're doing it together.

But I wish that we had had this before I wrote the thing because I'm already like, damn, that's a good bit. But here's, here's my, what I think is maybe my biggest summation of how I feel about contemporary gender is the young. I mean, I'm trying to figure it out. I want to be, I'm gonna make it the perfect talking point. Like the young men's equivalent of burning your bra is smashing your phone.

I suppose so. Wouldn't it be burning your jockstrap or something? No, because like your jockstrap is not trapping you. Or I mean, that was funny, that was funny. It depends on the guy. My jockstrap is trapping you. But your jockstrap is not like opp you or I mean that's fine. It depends on the guy. But it's your jockstrap is not like oppressing you. Right. I don't like mine.

Mine did. But also it kept you safe. Like you fucking it's safe. That's true. You need that shit. You don't want to fucking look cross ball coming at you without a jockstrap. That's true. Come on. Like I was you know, I was raised. I have a dick. Right. I know these things. But yeah, I'm like just just fucking smash the phone, dude.

You want to get free? You got to get off of that thing. You got to get back into the light, into the real world with some air and some oxygen and some fucking trees. The other thing too, as I would say to young men is you need to be around men more. We need men operate well in tribes. And I believe, if I remember the data rightly, our testosterone actually increases more around other men. And we build each other better when we're

men as a tribe. And that's one of the things that I see men have really been diminished by. I grew up going to the Boy Scouts. You can make some jokes about some of the aspects of that, but the failures of the Boy Scouts. I was also a Boy Scout. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it taught you camaraderie. There were things that you learned about being around men.

One of the problems we have in our society is a lot of men, when they enter relationships, they abandon their men friends. I don't know if that happens in the gay and trans community and LGBTQ. But here in hetero world, they tend to abandon their men friends. And then when they get divorced, this is a big conversation we have in the singles communities, when men get divorced, they don't have a support crew.

They don't have a support mechanism. They've abandoned all their friends to serve a woman. And women, they still have their committees. They still have all their girlfriends and stuff because they've been keeping those active. And men need to hang out with other men. Go to the gym, like you say, do things. We're trying. It all comes down to cavemen shit when it all comes down to it.

Men go in tribes. they go do activities. That's the reason men love to game is because it's a time where we can get together as a tribe and we can go do shit. We can achieve shit. We can kill shit. We can learn from each other. We also shape each other too. Men are vicious to each other when it comes to our nature.

We do that because we build each other. We shape each other. It's part of the anvil and the blacksmith process that I talked about. And we need that. We need to we men need to start hanging around more men and not other incels, I suppose. You wrote an essay. I think men need to have actual friendships and need actual friends.

You got to have actual bros like you need actual friends that you spend time with physically. And I mean, gamer like friends online are cool, but like. Buddies on Reddit don't count if you're not actually friends with them. And like, and being on a comment thread is not a friendship. It can be, it can lead to one online friendships can be real, but you know, most, yeah, the, the young men are extremely lonely. And young men need more friends. And I mean, actually, men just in general are still are pretty lonely in our, in our culture, there's some data on that in the book, too. And then men need many friendships. And because you

know what, Chris, you're gonna hate this, you're gonna hate this so much. You want to know what friendships can be a source of? Well,itional love. Got him. I'm just saying my friends love me pretty much unconditionally. They do. I got some. I got real ones. Everybody, everybody needs to feel that. And you can't get that in a relationship. You got to get that in friendships. So I like your message. Get out there in the real world. I, you know, it's so weird now because like when I go on dates, I'll call a woman and they're like, it's so weird because no one calls each other anymore. I'm a phone caller too.

What do you do? People think it's so weird. I'm like, I don't like, I'm like texting is fine, but let me just fuck, can I just call you? Like your voice is nice and I want to hear it. Yeah. And you're learning so much more. It always turns me on more than pixels.

Can I call you please? It's kind of, it's kind of this, I think maybe what you're trying to address is, and I'm not going to speak for you, I'm asking questions, is, you know, we need a better intimacy levels and care for each other in this world in person, maybe. Jared Slauson Yeah. And we have to acknowledge that there are men at the top right now who are spending all of their energy trying to figure out how they can profit

off of our alienation from one another. Oh yeah. And those people, yeah. And those people like are need to be like, I want, I hope we can understand them more as adversaries, you know, like people need to know Mark Zuckerberg is not your friend. He's not. No, some people think he is. I'm like, Elon Musk is not your friend either.

Like Twitter is not designed to make your brain do good. Twitter is designed to make you feel bad. You know, I thought anybody who took too much ketamine, they had to wear a diaper and shit their pants would be your buddy. Was a racist fucking Nazi making Nazi signals. I didn't, Hey, he made the Nazi signal twice. So any South Africa that kind of tells you what you know. The thank you very much. Anyway, guys, the Nazi signal twice. So any South Africa, that kind of tells you what you need to know. The thank you very much.

Anyway, guys, thanks for tuning in. Order up Jacob's book. We're refined books are sold. It is called before they were men essays on manhood, compassion, and what went wrong out August 26, 2025, I can't believe we're in August already. I'm still in like February of 2020. Pick up his book, we're gonna find books for sale and let's have this discussion.

Let's try and lift, be a lifter as opposed to tearing everybody down all the time like I do. Anyway guys, go to Goodreads.com, Fortran's, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortran's, Chris Foss, Chris Foss won the TikTokity and all those crazy places in the internet. Be good to each other, stay safe. We'll see ya next time.