The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Beyond the Mask: The Lessons I’ve Learned on Empathy in the Workplace by Kat Kennan

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

Beyond the Mask: The Lessons I’ve Learned on Empathy in the Workplace by Kat Kennan Radicalcustomerexperience.com https://amzn.to/3thGy9d Beyond the Mask: Everything I've Learned About Empathy at work by Kat Kennan is her chapter of the 2023 bestselling book, How to Break the Glass Ceiling and Still Keep It Nice. The e-book has a great meld of approachable personal stories, as well as research-based statistics that really hit home on the importance of psychological safety in the workplace. What People Are Saying: "As girls, we were taught that we could be anything we wanted to be. The women who came before us fought for our rights for, well, everything. The right to vote. Equal pay. The ability to work in any field we were passionate about. The list is endless. At the same time, we were told we could also be great mothers and partners and sisters and daughters and friends. We could have it all! "It turns out, that's a farce. Maybe you can have it all, but you can't have it all at the same time. "Beyond the Mask" is an eye-opening discussion about trauma, mental health, culture, society—and how to change the conversation so we don't burn out with chronic fatigue, PTSD, or worse. It will help you not only learn how to break your glass ceiling, but be OK with having it all during different stages of your life." — Gini Dietrich, founder and author, Spin Sucks

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my family and friends. It's wonderful to have you. As always, the Chris Voss Show is the family that loves you, but doesn't

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Four times a day actually on a weekday. And 10, 15 to 20 shows a week. You can tell I'm losing my mind. I can't even keep up with it all. We have an amazing young lady on the show with us today. Kat Cannon is on the show with us today. She's the founder and CEO of Radical Customer Experience. I love customer service and customer experience and holy crap, do we get back to talking about it more and everything else? So we're going to do some of that today and find out how you can do better as companies. You know, you companies out there do better.

Kat is a best-selling author, entrepreneur, and passionate marketing expert known for building high-impact customer service strategies and campaigns for CEOs, nonprofits, startups, as well as B2B and CPG clients. As the founder and CEO of Radical Customer Experience, she specializes in trauma-informed and inclusive marketing services, for which she has developed the 3Rs business model, an empathy-driven customer approach combining inclusive marketing, technology, and infrastructure to deepen brand loyalty

based on the proprietary, research-based, radical human intelligence platform, home of the Cancel Culture Checkup and Brand Sensitivity Score. Welcome to the show, Kat. How are you? I'm great today. Awesome. Awesome. Give us your dot coms. Where do you want people to find you on the interwebs, please? Yeah, absolutely. So personally, Kat Kennan on almost everything, whether it's LinkedIn or Instagram, what have you.

The website is radicalcustomerexperience.com. There you go. There you go. We mentioned a book in there. What, what's the plug on the book? Uh, yes. Um, I have an ebook that, uh, was a bestseller in five categories about empathy and the workplace is called beyond the mask, beyond the mess, the lessons I've learned on empathy in the workplace. There you go. People can order that wherever fine books are sold.

Is that on Amazon? It is. There we go. Okay, here we go. I think I found it on the Amazonian. So tell us, give us a 30,000 overview of your company and what you do. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a lifelong marketer, marketing executive, and a number of years ago, say 2018, 19, I actually had a couple of back-to-back traumas

happen to me and was diagnosed with PTSD at that time. And my analytical brain was still operating. And I realized that I was perceiving marketing messages very differently. And I knew it was in the realm of customer experience. I wasn't quite sure what I was going to do with it yet. But fast forward four to five years later. And I am now teaching trauma-informed marketing, which to my knowledge is something that I'm creating. But teaching trauma-informed and strength-based techniques to brands, primarily consumer-facing. And yeah, it's all about empathy, which is so, so important. So what were some of the things that you were finding in your response to marketing? Was there stuff that was triggering the traumas that you had?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the big misunderstanding about trauma, obviously, we know about it from a hospital perspective or from a vet perspective. But, you know, the reality is that every single human being on earth has experienced major trauma, especially if you look at it in the lens of the pandemic. You know, 40 percent of us lost someone we know. That's hugely traumatic. One example that I talk about a lot is the holidays or particularly Mothers and Fathers Day. And if you think about it, you know, around leading up to those holidays, like every email in your inbox, every post you see, every commercial is just bombarding.

Don't forget mom. Don't forget dad. Here are the best gift ideas. And for those of us that maybe have lost a parent, it can be extremely triggering. But there are some brands doing really good things. Etsy is one, Ancestry did something this year where they said, hey, we know this time of year is tough for many of you click to opt out of our mother's day messaging oh wow so i know the first time i saw that as a consumer i had lost my mom as a first mother's day without my mom and i was like oh they see me

oh there you go yeah uh that There you go. That makes sense. You know, there's some things that they're like that, like, you know, like, well, it's my father,

father's day was a little raw to see everyone celebrating for the first couple of years. You know, you're still in grief for a couple of years. And I can understand how that works. And that makes sense. If, you know, brands,

you know, don't want to be triggering the traumas or issues people have uh uh you know for a long time facebook facebook sends you those reminders you know if you haven't turned on i think you can turn them off now but they have those reminders they'll send you of like here's your posts from like a year or two or five years ago and uh it was especially triggering when I would get post reminders from, oh, here's me putting my dog down two years ago or whatever. And if you're still in that grief phase, that could be a little hard to put down.

Now when I see the posts, I'm actually pleasantly reminded and grateful to be reminded of what, uh, what, what a wonderful opportunity I had to have people in my life. But, uh, it's hard, especially when you're in that grief stage. So you help brands, um, deal with, uh, some of these people that are having issues that might get triggered by certain things and stuff. And, and, and radically bring better customer service and different diversity. What does it mean to radically bring that to the thing? What, what's the difference between like say radical vulnerabilities,

you put it at empathy and radical authentic investment as opposed to just normal. I think it's, we're leveling up, you know, it's not enough to, you know, use a popular word or something that's trending. It really needs to be truly authentic. And, you know, as marketers, we are really good at coming up with buzzwords that can quickly become pretty meaningless. But my whole company, you know, radical customer experience from the very beginning, I really pushed and adopted this idea of taking it that next step further.

And so when I was thinking about what those core tenants of the business would be, I knew vulnerability, I knew empathy. At first I said authenticity, and the more we got into the research, we realized authentic investment was a better fit. You know, it's companies that, you know, they're not necessarily just donating to donate or participating in fundraisers just to be a part of it. They are really, really giving, whether it's profit share or whatever it is, giving to those, you know, issues that they care about because it goes into the DNA of the company. That's authentic investment. Or really investing in their local communities, where their employees are coming from. And this doesn't mean, you know, adopting a park bench or, you know, a piece of the road. It really means saying investing in future workers. Yeah. So the one thing you talk about is how companies can avoid cancel culture. What does that mean? What is that about? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the last number I saw is like 40 to 50 percent of executives are terrified of being canceled.

Yeah. The point where, and I don't blame them at all, but to the point where they don't really say anything, you know, they're afraid to say anything publicly. But at the same time, you know, research is also showing us that over 60% of consumers want brands to speak up. You know, they want them to stand up for issues. And so there's a fundamental conflict there. So we put together a little software product called the cancel culture checkup. But it is, it is essentially based around these three tenets. And, you know, now it's third party data science verified. The thoughts that came from my brain to the platform are actually proving out, which is very exciting. But, you know, it's a, you know, psychometric based questionnaire that brands can send to their consumers, whether email or social.

There's also a built-in audience if they're looking for impartial consumers. And it really is testing sensitivity. So how sensitive do your customers perceive you to be as a company. And we're, it's, it's really startling. And we're able to show sort of how each brand is positioned against average with those tenants and even sub tenants and really diving down. And then the platform actually provides recommendations about what brands can do next in order to say maybe they're doing really well and you know authentic investment but not so great on empathy so we can help help them get there get to the next spot definitely you know you saw that with the the bud light uh kerfuffle and it's been an expensive turnout for them and for the first 30 days they didn't they try not to

say anything maybe to see if they could quell it or maybe it would go away or, you know, just be a fad and almost seem like the longer they didn't say anything, the worst that seemed to have gotten for them to sales-wise and everything. Yeah, absolutely. I think in terms of PR crisis saying nothing very rarely pays off. You know,

it's, it's specific actually to our, our questionnaire is, you know, if a brand is vulnerable or radically vulnerable, are they admit to, are they open to admitting mistakes? Are they open to actually apologizing? And that goes a huge way, you know, with consumers, especially since our research is showing us that 83% of consumers, 83% feel like brands do little to nothing in order to address any kind of customer service issues. That's pretty astounding. I know I've been brand side for the majority of my career. And if I was told that 83% of my customers weren't happy,

I feel like I needed to do something about it. Yeah. There was the, who was the actor recently with his wife? He's fairly popular. He was in that 70s show. And they didn't know. David Pasterson. Yeah, they did some sort of letter to a judge.

And then they had to come out and do an apology. I don't know if it was any good or not. I didn't really follow it. But I know that was an example of. Because they are a brand. I mean, people bought his wares of acting and and uh and so i think some products he's involved with investments he's involved with and um and so i think everyone's a brand now pretty much this microphone is my siberians have their own only fans and uh and tv show going on uh They're doing a reality pilot for Netflix this fall.

And they look at me and they go, we got more subscribers than you do. We're dogs. And I'm like, wow. Okay. All right. I see how it goes.

They're Siberians. They're pretty disrespectful. But so this is something, you know, you met, you put the finger on the pulse. Brands need to be seen. You know,

like a good example is what we're seeing with disney and uh the governor of florida uh ronda santos this this woke fight they've been in and it's kind of interesting and i'm i've always been kind of curious i think i know how people in florida see their governor for the most part um but i think you know disney as a brand too is kind of like you know i know how much parents and children love disney i mean i don't i don't have kids so i'm not a disney fan i mean but they're they're a great company i grew up watching you know walt disney and the i think it would come on every sunday or monday night the walt disney show and it would play whatever sort of stuff i was going i grew up as

a kid i enjoyed it um i'm just not into animation anymore uh i'm old uh but uh you know they've gotten into one and it's kind of interesting how they're battling it they're just they're battling it through court and and it seems like now ronda santos is giving the mea culpa like okay we're done fighting you and like not really um so that's kind of interesting thing because they're i don't think they really apologize for anything they're actually going on a on a um a war and and saying bring it on and it's kind of interesting the dynamics of you think about from what you're talking about where um you know i don't know

one one brand's gonna have to apologize to the other maybe eventually i don't know or maybe there's gonna be a recognition by a court that says one of you is wrong i don't know yeah i think i yeah i think the chances of that are probably pretty high um the disney example is particularly interesting because they've always been a relatively conservative company in terms of protecting their brand and, you know, what people really see sort of behind the curtain. They're really standing up. And, you know, statistically speaking, you know, with the research, consumers expect brands to stand up, you know, for whatever issue it is. And so, you know, we see a bigger backlash for brands that maybe tried to stand up and then backpedal than ones that just stand up and stay there. There you go.

So that may explain some of the reasoning. That was kind of what I was trying to get to. You let me get over that hump. I couldn't find the way to get around that mountain. But basically, so them standing up is them signaling with their brand that, hey, we support, I think it was over LGBTQ stuff, things like that. And so we're we're putting up the good fight for the brand do you think you think a lot of people that um that support disney are are backing that they're like hey you know it's good that disney's taking a stand we support

them yeah i absolutely do um there's a report that comes out every uh january from a huge pr company called edelman and they do the brand trust report and it's a global survey that really you know hits the pulse on what consumers are thinking you know around the world and you know they've they've gotten this you know this data out for the last several years and it's not changing. It's only getting stronger. There you go. Well, that's interesting. Now I kind of understand that whole dynamic more. Cause I was like, I don't know, I don't know if this whole fights and I don't know if it looks bad or it looks good, but now that I've talked to you, I kind of understand how the signal that's coming from Disney means they're,

they're standing up for maybe their employees. Maybe they're the people that come to their, uh, their thing. Cause everybody, you know, wants to enjoy, well,

you know, the Disneyland experience and go there. It's a fun place. It's supposed to be, it's supposed to be just a fun place. I mean, I've never gone to Disneyland and been like, Hey,

what is that beast that's in the mountain, Space Mountain or whatever? What is it? I don't know. What's the Ice Mountain or whatever the hell it's called? It's clear I haven't been to Disney in a while. But, you know, what are the little elves trying to say to me? Are there elves at Disney? I don't know.

It's been a while since I've been to Disney, clearly. There. Maybe I need to go. So, there you go. So companies need to take and work on, is radical vulnerability, is radical empathy, and radical authentic investment really doing large signals, doing massive signaling of what their values are and their morals? Yeah. I don't think it's doing enough, but it's trending up. And I think that the same companies who have been ahead on other social issues, whether it's sustainability or, you know, overall ESG efforts and even diversity and

inclusion, these are going to tend to be the brands that are speaking up. They're just, you know, a bit more forward thinking. And you also see great examples of brands that, you know, what comes from their DNA is what they talk about, whether that's Patagonia or similar brands. They are standing up for the environment. They're also standing up for things like voter rights. And it's fundamental to who they've always been as a brand. There you go. Now, what is the brand sensitivity score?

Yeah. So, you know, in the marketing business world, there's something called the net promoter score, which everyone upholds as the be all end all. And fun fact, it is based around one question, which is whether or not you would recommend the brand to a friend. So while it is a predictor, it essentially tells anyone that's on the marketing side, how your customers feel on average at any given moment in time, which therefore means absolutely nothing. And in contrast, you know, our system, which, you know, then produces a brand sensitivity score, not only do you get insights across these three tenants and get to compare yourselves against, you know, other similar brands or whether it's demographics or psychographics of the customers taking the assessment, um, it, it, the information it spits out at you is there's just nothing like it on the market, um, in terms of insights and, you know, these three getting behind these three tenets leading to sales. There you go.

There you go. The world is evolving. Consumers are evolving. Do you find that Gen Zers are more in tune to these sort of methods? I know starting with the millennials, they started to care more about social events and brands that supported social stuff or, you know, different awareness items like climate change, et cetera, et cetera. I think Gen Z has gone

to the next level with it. Do you see that as one of the reasons this is becoming such a big thing as the end of the workplace and market? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, definitely first with millennials and especially with Gen Z and goodness, my youngest daughter is Gen Alpha. But, you know, we're seeing more and more consumers, particularly in these two age categories, which is, you know, pretty wide gamut of years, who will walk away from a brand without a look back, right? Because of one issue, whether it was some, like a personal customer service issue that made them very uncomfortable, whether it was a post or an email or some sort of content um you know i i like to say it's not like there's a room full of marketers or you know um executives that are sitting around a conference table trying to ruin people's day um at least we hope it's not i always i always said said that look of the evil thing with the cat on my lap, like Dr. Evil. A billion. But it's so easy to trigger people.

And I think really, you know, above everything else, you know, or above everything, what I'm trying to teach brands is to take a breath to take a pause and just imagine um you know what it might be like if you know um your consumer was approaching from a particular spot uh there was a really really crazy uh situation that happened with the brand valenciaga last fall yeah that's crazy right with like kids and bdsm gear and um obviously it was wildly inappropriate um but let's take it one step further imagine you saw that campaign and you had suffered childhood abuse. Yeah. So, you know, that's, it's just like that next level. There's a lot of next leveling in this whole, this whole sphere, I guess. Yeah, it was, I remember reviewing that because I review a lot of these marketing stuff and marketing kerfuffles.

I'm always interested to that, you know, where people feel on the marketing the marketing you're like why did that fail um what were the reasons behind it because you know you don't want to step into some of those things that was a really interesting thing is what was going on with that and i kind of wonder about the owner of that company or whoever's setting those up um and i think someone trying to normalize certain things uh to bring them into the sphere of well that's normal um i don't know there's some weird there's some weird motivation behind that at least that's my perception um in your book beyond beyond the mask the lessons i learned in on empathy in the workplace uh do we want to tease out some of the different aspects of that? Yeah. So, you know, you get a lot of personal anecdotes from me, but it's woven in with research. I really give pretty step-by-step guides on how companies can create psychologically safe workplaces, trauma-informed workplaces, which is sort of

the next level up. Again, I guess it's a theme on this conversation about leveling up. But, you know, there are simple principles that companies and families, I do this at home too, you know, don't interrupt people. When you interrupt someone, you are literally telling them that their opinion doesn't matter, their feelings don't matter, you're completely invalidating them, just because, you know, you've interrupted. And I know that's something I will forever be working on, because I get so excited. It's like everything explodes out right um but again it's like take a pause let someone finish uh you know and then speak there you go we try and do that show people say we'll say that to me a little bit i like your show about how you try not to interrupt people um and i'm like yeah

because i'm interested in hearing what they have to say i don't i've heard enough of my crap unless i'm trying to get a joke in there's sometimes where I've got to jam a joke in and if someone said something where there's just a great joke for it and I think uh in my earlier uh show today I interrupted somebody three times but they they left such a good mark for jokes I'm like hey I gotta get this joke in here um but uh yeah and they they were funny so um that's usually the ones like, I can't let this get away. But yeah, we try and let people talk on the show. Is there a point though, let me play devil's advocate. Is there a point there where we're trying to address too many people's issues and traumas?

I mean, I could see if as a brand, let's say as a brand, I'm, okay, let's, let's stress people's potential traumas. You know, we have these things in the workplace now, microaggressions, you know, it seems to be getting more and more nuanced as to how you can offend someone, hurt their feelings, or it just seems to be anytime you can hurt someone's feelings or, I mean, you're not even trying to hurt their feelings, or it just seems to be anytime you can hurt someone's feelings. I mean, you're not even trying to hurt their feelings. They're just going to trigger it in some sort of thing that they have about whatever, and they could be traumas.

I mean, there's a point where you could just lose your mind in this, where it could be a bucket full of 500 things you'd have to do or an endless amount of things you could do because so many people are various and different. Is there a where it's like okay what point is it sane and what point does it reach an insanity where you can't function uh as a brand yeah no that's absolutely a good point and you know something that i've been thinking about and and i guess combating uh since the beginning of the business but i think sometimes when people first hear about the idea of trauma-informed marketing it it is daunting and it can seem overwhelming but that doesn't mean that you're tailoring every piece of content or campaign

for literally like every single issue that someone's experienced. That is unsustainable, not scalable. But more than anything, it's let's just take a pause. Let's just, you know, even if you're taking, say, the top 10 things, right, in terms of major traumatic experiences, it could, yes, it could be losing someone, a friend in our family. It could be a health issue. It could also be changing jobs or moving homes, right? Things that people don't necessarily think is this big, massive trauma that can be very, very triggering. And, you know, in terms of the workplace, i'm sure all of us and everyone watching listening

has been in that meeting where one of their co-workers just has a meltdown and you were like i don't know what just happened but i'm confused and puzzled and the reality is they probably did have a trauma reaction. But the thing about trauma is that it's always underneath. It's, you know, anger is a secondary emotion. So for most of those people that have that moment, it's not about anything that was said in the room. It's not even as simple as, hey, they had a fight with their partner in the morning it's it's something so much deeper and the majority of the time when you've had a trauma reaction you don't even know that you've had one um and if you figure it out it's much you know much down the road after the fact um and so that's something also just to keep in mind is that, you know, it's not like you'll have a list of customers, and I can say external customers or

internal customers, you know, your employees, it's not like everyone's just going to sign a drop down or put a drop down menu of what their triggers are it's just it's not that obvious um yeah but certainly just take a moment and if someone has something like that happen there has to be a way back in there you go maybe um i mean i remember after covid i was people were saying and i think i was saying we all need to have like a major psychiatrist therapy after covid um you know you mentioned how people had lost during covid um i have relatives still suffering from uh long haul covid and probably always well in their life it it would probably shorten their lifespan. And I think the average thing they figure with long COVID,

it's shortening people's lifespan by probably 10 years. But maybe we all need some psychology after this. What a good thing to do is in companies, maybe address the people who have traumas by suggesting people address their mental health go see psychiatrists go get mental help i know mental help is really important for people that have suffered traumas and actually doing the work with the psychiatrist um maybe this more this could be resolved that way as opposed to just trying to dance around people's traumas. Yeah, absolutely. I do think there's like a benefit or benefits perspective because honestly, a lot of mental

health care is not covered by insurance. You know, almost, I don't know, maybe it's just New York specific, but I don't think so that, you know, most psychiatrists no longer take insurance. And, you know, you can't blame them because they need to make a living too. Unfortunately, they're all sole practitioners. But, you know, there's certainly companies that could step up there. And there's always like emergency, like access, you know, typically, there's a plan like that with most people's insurance. But I think one of the biggest things companies can do is to bring in training about trauma and being trauma informed and how to pick out, right, when someone might be having a trauma reaction.

Because like I said, it's kind of undercover a lot. You know, it's not. And, you know, while you want to be vulnerable and have empathy and you want it to go both ways, right, you know, someone might not be comfortable sharing, might not even be aware of how damaging or damaged or triggered they might be. But I do think being able to have like some really committed training around what trauma can look like at work is really, really critical. There you go.

And that's kind of what I was alluding to. Yeah. Maybe, maybe we do need to amp up not only health insurance, but mental health insurance. I mean, I've been working in companies with or with or at companies all my life. And look, I'm like, you need some mental help. In fact,

most people have been watching the show for 15 years. Like he needs some mental help. The show is the mental help I get where all the great people come on and educate me. mental health. Um, in fact, most people have been watching the show for 15 years. Like he needs some mental health. Uh, the show is the mental health I get, uh, where all the great people come on and educate me, maybe smarter. Um,

which actually has worked actually. Uh, I know most people are like, no, he's still fucked up. Um, which is probably true. Uh,

but, uh, no, maybe we need to invest more in mental health. Uh, maybe we need to have more programs for that. that, you know, address people's traumas. You know, we've had a lot of people on the show, doctors, scientists, everybody from the gambit talking about traumas. And traumas, you know, they carry for a lifetime, especially if they're not addressed.

And so many people in youth, they'll experience traumas and they'll drag it through their whole life. And you can see what it makes. I mean, I've, I've had that with my own life. And you wake up at 20, 30 years down the line and you go, wow,

I should have gotten that fixed. I shouldn't get that looked at. And so, yeah, maybe more people in the workplace, you know, you've given me the idea and realizing, and I think I probably already operate from this aspect when I look at people and I go, there might be some trauma there, what's going on.

But as a leader, having people in your workforce, your team, or, you know, people in your life environment, you can look at them and go, i think there's some trauma with this person i probably should identify it and maybe see what see if there's ways that i can be either sensitive to it or uh help them deal with it or you're trying um you know just just uh not trigger it i suppose um you know i i had a friend one time that his brother had committed suicide and, um, I had, I'd forgotten about it. You know, I wasn't paying attention. I think I was, it was up late one night and somebody had, uh, sent me a video of someone jumping in front of a train in New York and I shared it with him, not even thinking. Um, and I was like, holy crap, look at this. This is shocking. and this is in the early days of

the internet he was really triggered and very upset and rightly so because i'd forgotten that his brother committed suicide and you know some stuff like that that that uh i was well aware of and um at least he told me the story once um but you know i ended up triggering a friend and certainly he didn't mean to and should have been more thoughtful on my part but you know, I ended up triggering a friend and certainly didn't mean to and should have been more thoughtful on my part. But, you know, it was just one of those mistakes people make and not intentional. But that was an example of somewhere I could have done better. Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, so I can't remember if I said that, but during the pandemic, I went back and I got a certification in being a trauma-informed professional. So bearing my own experiences with the marketing expertise, but really understanding what's happening in our body and in our bones.

And, you know, I think the popular book now for years is The Body Keeps the Score. And boy, does it ever. But current research is actually showing, like, this is astounding statistic. Even though I talk about it all the time, I still can't quite believe it. But we are all carrying up to 14 generations of trauma, literally in our DNA. So, you know, even for someone that has had like the most perfect life or perfect childhood, um, which, you know, let's be honest, none of us have had, we're still caring. It means literally in our bones, um, and You know, we're carrying that. And especially when you meet someone that's experienced a lot of trauma and you recognize them as someone who is breaking

a cycle, whatever that is, right? Whether it's substance abuse or violence or a combination thereof, poverty, right? Like they are sort of one stemming that tide and they are then affecting the following 14 generations. And, you know, so I definitely give honor in that area, but, you know, and thinking back to the pandemic, like the real traumatic effects of a pandemic is not even going to be in our lifetime right it's literally now going to be passed down in our dna yeah there you go uh so as we go out give us your final thoughts and pitch to people to come do business with you pick up your book etc etc yeah absolutely i, I think it's time for

businesses to step up and do better. And, you know, a great way to start is, you know, why don't you start with your own customers and see, you know, how they're, how you're landing with them. You know, head on over to the website, radicalcustomerexperience.com. Check out what I do. Check out those software options. You know, I'd be thrilled to answer any questions, walk anyone through the platform. And, you know, I am here to help. Like, honestly, our mission at RCX is to change the face of marketing by teaching empathy. But our big overarching

vision is really, really to stop and slow down the mental health crisis that we are all in. And that's the purpose behind the business. Changing marketing is just, is the entryway, is the way we're getting there. There you go. Well, you know, it's more than just about selling widgets, people. It really is. So thank you very much, Kat,

for coming on the show. We certainly appreciate it. Oh, I was thrilled to be here. Thank you so much. Thrilled to have you as well. Great message. I think I've learned a few things and as a leader, start thinking about how I address people in my teams. If there's trauma,

you're right. Maybe if there is a crisis at work, maybe it's just not sending them to HR and firing them for having an outburst. Maybe it's trying to figure out what's at the core of their issues. Folks, you can order up the book wherever fine books are sold, Beyond the Mask, the lessons I've learned on empathy in the workplace. It came out September 7th, 2023. Order that up wherever fine books are sold. There's a great Prime sale going on in a day or two. People watching this for 10 years from now

are going, what the hell? Prime Day 2 is in a couple days. So get a chance to order that up as well of course order the books given away for your family and relatives you know you may know some people have some trauma in your family we always kind of joke about on the show about the some of the people in people's family uh you know coming up you've got uh all the holidays there so maybe this might be a good book to give to some people uh that you know that are always the problem people over at Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner or whatever. You know who those people are.

And if you don't know who those people are, it's probably you. Ask me how I know because it's me. Thanks for tuning in, everyone. Be good to each other. Stay safe. And we'll see you guys next time. And that should happen.