The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – California’s Insurance Crisis: Fires, Losses, and Recovery Steps with WOWS Fire Insurance Services

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

California's Insurance Crisis: Fires, Losses, and Recovery Steps with WOWS Fire Insurance Services Wowsinsurance.com About the Guest(s): Robert Feldman is the CEO and co-founder of Wows Insurance Services, a leading wholesaler in the insurance industry with over 25 years of experience. Specializing in fire insurance, especially in high-risk zones like California, Robert actively educates realtors about securing insurance for homes deemed uninsurable. A seasoned speaker, he has contributed significantly to discussions at the California Association of Realtors and works on task forces and insurance panels to find solutions to California's housing insurance crisis. Episode Summary: In this gripping episode of The Chris Voss Show, returning guest Robert Feldman, CEO of Wows Insurance Services, delves into the escalating housing insurance crisis in California, particularly in the wake of devastating wildfires. Feldman, with his 25 years of experience, provides invaluable insights into the catastrophe, sharing his direct experiences from his own community, which faced the brunt of these fires. Listeners will gain a unique understanding of the complexities intertwined with insurance challenges, climate change, and community resilience in these unprecedented times. The discussion further elaborates on the immense scale and impact of the California wildfires, examining how communities, especially those in known fire zones, are struggling with losses both physical and financial. Feldman addresses not only the insurance industry's response to these crises, such as policy cancellations and rising premiums but also broadens the conversation to include future preparedness and mitigation strategies. Through his extensive engagement with realtors and homeowners, Feldman offers a roadmap to recovery even amidst the devastation, highlighting the importance of long-term planning and immediate action in the face of climatic challenges. Key Takeaways: Catastrophic Impact: The recent California wildfires have been exponentially more devastating than past fires, with entire communities incinerated. Insurance Challenges: Major insurance companies have been withdrawing from California, leading to coverage issues for homeowners in risk-prone areas. Five Steps to Recovery: Feldman outlines a systematic five-step process to aid victims in recovering from property loss, emphasizing the importance of filing a claim and planning reconstruction. Future Preparedness: There's a critical need for better land management and sustainable planning to mitigate future climate-related disasters. Community Support: The conversation highlights the incredible human spirit and community support in times of crisis, stressing the importance of unity. Notable Quotes: "This fire was a 10x fire… Woolsey was supposed to be one of the worst fires in California, and this one will be at least 10 times worse." "Insurance carriers were in California prior to this event, and over the last couple years really pulling back in essence canceling policies." "This event was more damaging to the environment than the last 30 years of not doing the preparation." "Five steps are really so very important… this is not gonna be done in six months. This is gonna be years." "When things are terrible, the good of humanity steps in and we rally. That's what you're seeing right now."

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

Three votes for the Voss. Ladies and gentlemen, the Iron Lady sings to them. Makes it official. Welcome to the show. We certainly appreciate you guys. As always, the Chris Voss Show is the family that sings to them, makes it official. Welcome to the show. We certainly appreciate you guys. As always, the Chris Foss Show is a family that loves you but doesn't judge you. At least not as harshly as your mother-in-law. But if you refer her to the show, maybe she'll appreciate you more.

Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschristmas, linkedin.com, 4chesschristmas, chrisfoss1, the TikTokity, and all those crazy places on the internet. Today we have returning guest Robert Feldman joins us on the show. I was really interested to hear his perspective on this. He's been on the show a couple times before with wowsinsurance.com. He is an insurance professional with nearly 25 years of experience. We're going to be talking today about California, the housing insurance crisis, pretty much nationwide, and how he's been working to resolve it.

And I was really interested after having him twice on the show, what his insights were into the tragedy happening in California, the huge fires, the huge losses in tens of thousands of homes. I think it is at this point. His specialty is insurance in the fire zones and hard to place risks. He's an industry professional who served as a speaker at the California Association of Realtors. He travels the state educating realtors about how to secure insurance for homes that are deemed uninsurable. My brain's deemed uninsurable. Anyway, just a joke there. Robert, it's Friday, people.

Robert serves on many task forces and insurance panels, working directly with senior leadership of many insurance carriers to solve the California's state insurance crisis. To that end, he's the founder of Wow's Insurance Services, designed to deliver insurance solutions to large homes that struggle to secure insurance in California. Welcome to the show, Robert. How are you? Thank you. I'm holding up, man. It's been a wild and crazy ride. Definitely. The history, we've had you on the show twice before, pre this crisis tragedy, this horrific event of the wildfires in the Pacific Palisades, and of course, all over California, Southern California and LA, even in North Hollywood. I mean, it was crazy. So give us your dot coms and tell us what your thoughts are these days with what's been going on? Again, as you mentioned, my name is Robert Feldman, CEO and co-founder of Wow's Insurance. We are a wholesaler that brings insurance carriers into California. Brokers, over 3,000 brokers appointed throughout the state. Working on the Western United States at this point, but obviously our website is Wow's, W-O-W-S insurance.com. And my email is Robert at wows insurance.

Really right now we were on the show and Chris, you know, we talked about it and over the last couple of years, I felt like almost like the boy that's been crying wolf, you know, warning really, some really scary things. And obviously this is a lot worse than we ever possibly could imagine.

I, this is for everyone out there listening. This is, you know, basically where I live, this is ground zero. So it this is you know basically where i live this is ground zero so it's not i live in southern california one of the fires actually was blowing towards my house i was originally one of the ones that survived the woolsey fire which is the big malibu fire years ago as bad as those that fire was this is what's we i call a 10x fire so Woolsey was supposed to be one of the worst

fires in California or state history and this one will be at least 10 times worse wow at least 10 times worse yeah I mean 10 times worse I mean it's what is the scale of it right now people might be listening this years from now on YouTube and in our channels of course we keep all of our stuff up but uh tell us where what the scale is right now as you understand if you have some numbers yeah the numbers are pretty staggering there's estimation just and what's really scary chris is is that there's a fire towards pasadena called the eaton fire e-a-t-o-n fire that one on its own would have been a massive story a top top event the scary part of this is that was a separate fire separate event going on at the exact same time and it is almost dwarfed

you know because the the palisades fire is exponentially bigger it's actually more lost so what's scary is we had multiples to your point, multiple events happening, fire events happening separate, they're multiple and happening all at the same time. So it's obviously stretched resources into a lot of really rough, terrible things while that was happening or before it was happening. I was really concerned. I was talking about the fact that the winds we had Gail winds that were pushing 70, 80 miles an hour

and when that happens chris i'm sorry you know a fire ticks catches it can throw ambers two to three miles yeah and so it was just i mean areas that burned in the pacific palisades were by many accounts not areas that could burn and the reason why i say that is even though they were in quote-unquote fire zones these were full communities a lot of you've seen this on the news these are full community areas that were not really they were in a fire zone but not deemed a fire zone is what i would say really because because a lot of the homes that burn were not like a lot of times in the news they they show homes that are on edges of hillside, all these places. I got privy to see this was like I've never experienced a war zone in my life.

I hope I never do. This is what I would imagine a war zone looked like. Everything is gone. I mean, not just this is the really crazy thing. When I got privy to see, there's a section of the Palisades where not just the cell phone towers are gone, but the fire hydrants are gone. They're just melted. I mean, it melted. I mean, cars are melted to the ground. Yeah, I've been seeing that.

Cars are melted. The rims of the cars melt into the ground. Wow. of the cars melt into the ground wow yeah i i saw a port-a-potty where just what had come out of the port-a-potty was left and and the the port-a-potty had completely melted there was no there was not even a sign in the port-a-potty and the guy was showing he's like there was a port-a-potty there and it's just vaporized basically it vaporized in a whole area. You know, and you know, again, like I say, I hope I never end up in a war situation. See, this

is what I would analogize what it looked like. And I'm sorry to say there are lots of lives that are lost. They're still counting. You know, the problem with an area this massive, usually in most fires, you'll see like an area where maybe a street gets four or five homes or maybe seven or eight homes maybe a street gets four or five homes or maybe seven

or eight homes in the street this is four five hundred thousand homes in one area gone yeah just wiped off the planet and so scary the the precursor of this let's talk a little bit about that because we've had you on the show before you know you've been trying to resolve the issue that a lot of these homeowners unfortunately will face now where they were getting canceled i believe state farm was one of the big insurance carriers in in california state farm isn't there give me a cnd over that one the i keep calling my state farm agent he never appears isn't that the he's like i get a busy signal but a lot of insurance carriers this has been happening i believe florida and texas as well started pulling out of the state over the

last two or three years give us an update on how that works or precursor so well what has happened obviously the risks are and this is a thing that insurance companies are businesses, Chris. They are a for-profit business, regulated but for-profit. And so when a business starts to lose money or loses money, they will close things up or stop doing the business that's making them lose money. So insurance carriers were in California prior to this event where over the last couple years really pulling back in essence canceling policies with that said as a wholesaler we've been very successful in bringing carriers back in you know one of the questions I get a lot now Chris is what's going

to happen now after the fires and so we have multiple carriers it's it's crazy it sounds we were already we we have brokers that are sent things to us to get you know for quotes there are carriers that we wholesale through and we're actually in the process of binding policies already at this point not exactly on the site but at least it's not a complete southern california shutdown is what which it was at the fire yeah it's and so now many of these poor people that, you know, I heard one story of a couple that was in their 90s, their old senior citizen folks,

like just six months ago or something or three months ago, they had their fire insurance canceled. And so they probably just wiped their whole life savings. And that's the terrible thing. That's the terrible thing about it. What I would say, though, you know, the one thing I will say about the homes in the Pacific Palisades, along with the Eaton Fire in Pasadena, is prior to the loss, prior to the event occurring, there were insurance carriers writing.

There was no part of the Palisades that was uninsurable. That's what I would say. There was carriers willing to write it. The big problem I would say this is, is that a lot of seniors, to your point, they were with a company and they were paying X and now maybe the insurance is two or three X, meaning two or three times more. And some consumers, I'm sorry to say, made the decision because they own their house, not to insure it. And so when you make that decision, this is the terrible outcome and the opposite way. My heart goes out to everybody out there. I gave my email out earlier for your listeners, anyone that's directly connected to, we're helping people just in general. I've had back-to-back

meetings the last three four days with every major realtor chain in California giving them updates because that's what I do I'm talking about the five steps of how to recover from this and what to do and you know and we're just getting the word out and I'm fielding god well over 100 calls a day for people that aren't even consumer or clients i call them consumers because they're not clients that we're just trying to help people get to the right spots and unwind and get them in the process of getting going to recover wow it's it's it's crazy to think about i mean i don't know i suppose the attorneys maybe might have something to do with some of this, but I don't know.

I don't know how the whole thing. I mean, maybe the federal government bailing out people for stuff as well. I don't know if they'll get bailed out. It's kind of interesting how we'll bail out billionaires and billion-dollar companies, but the average joke gets thrown to the wolves. This is going to be an interesting one because this is not this is not the palisades the eden fire is very typical to a fire that has happened in california which is devastating the palisades fire is there's a whole section of the pacific palisades

those that aren't familiar there's a famous freeway called the 405 freeway and and and there's a santa monica the 405 Freeway. And there's a Santa Monica Freeway. Most people have heard of the Santa Monica Freeway. So that's crossroads or if I were giving you major landmarks. And where the fire started to really break out was near the Getty Museum. So the Getty Museum is a landmark, if you're listening, that'll tell you kind of where it is if you look at a map. It burned basically from the Getty Museum

to the ocean. And everything in between. Wow. There's not a lot of things in the Getty Museum, but I guess they did a lot of updating. They did a tremendous amount of fire harvying and were able

to defend it. Yeah. But geez, that would have burned They did a tremendous amount of fire harvying and were able to defend it. Yeah, yeah. But, geez, that would have burned with all the artwork and stuff inside of it. Oh, my goodness. But, I mean, it doesn't minimize everyone else's loss. So I don't want to frame it that way, the way I put it. So, you know, this seems to be, I think, you know, we have these rising cases of climate change and the effect that it's having. And it's not fun.

You know, anybody's been seeing the weirdness go on where, you know, definitely climate change and climate reaction and climate issues are ramping up. We recently had an author on the show, I think a year ago or a few months back, where he works for a national news channel, and they send him to the middle America for small to medium-sized towns when they have catastrophes of climate change. And when these small towns, middle America, sometimes there's those old you know, they're those old cities that got bypassed by the highway, you know, they're, they're on life support as it is because they're just small towns, but to have some of these climate events, you know, it can put the whole town out of business and destroy the town. You know, I mean, California may see an even bigger

migration, but I think, I think some insurance companies may be looking at this and i think maybe nationwide insurance premiums might go up on homeowners insurance because it's already on the rise chris it's already on the rise and so what here's what's going to happen and this is part of what we talked about last time chris you know i i use the word i use a saying einstein's theory of insanity the industry and collectively doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And why I say that is, if anyone looks up, we have our website, wowsinsurance.com. You can go on there and see what we're proposing to change and how insurance changes with our programs. But at the same time, this is going to be a situation where

we're going to have to aggressively change what we're doing there's been a lot of pushback a lot of the sections that caused this inferno and fire first of all you're never going to stop the wind yeah it was i'm sorry to say we were there was gust winds as high as 80 90 miles an hour they were talking about almost hurricane winds oh yeah the yeah. The winds are crazy. So the only thing we're going to be able to do as a California or really the western United States is we're going to have to get a hundred times better

about things like in essence areas that have uncontrolled burns are really coming off of areas that have not been maintained. A lot of the areas outside the Pacific Palisades have not been maintained a lot of the areas outside the pacific palisades haven't been maintained in 30 years so they had brush undergrowth that caught fire and threw this thing with the wind we're going to collectively as a state are going to have to look at this and

make these changes to make our environment safer for people to live i mean i understand there are some concerns you know if there's some people that live i mean i understand there are some concerns you know if there's some people that will be upset from that there's a damage to the environment and and i can make an argument now that i could argue that this event was more damaging to the environment than the last 30 years of not doing the preparation yeah you know there's a lot of concerns about animals well guess what happened to all the animals they know that were in the path of this fire guess what doesn't happen to the animals that are under a control burn yeah we're gonna have to start doing changes Chris we're gonna have to make changes or what's going to happen is

the insurance companies are not going to be able to afford this and afford to be able to give insurance. And ultimately consumers, too. Got it. There's a lot of – I said that earlier. A lot of people – insurance is a business. Obviously, it's a business. So if it makes profit, it stays in business. If it loses money, it pulls out of a given area or type of insurance.

So by doing mitigation, there's a lot of work that needs to be done in California. And not just California, but the western United States. You're not going to control winds. You're not going to control a fire when there's wind. But you can control the fuel to the fire so that it can't just create this inferno yeah yeah it's and i mean the the the one thing that will come out of this is hopefully they get better at they build better fire codes and different things but that may make that's part of it too houses being rebuilt will be built stronger and and but again i'm sorry to say with

the wind, if we do not take out the fuel lines, the fuel areas, and we don't maintain the fuel areas, I don't care how great, I don't care how perfect a house is built, it's going to burn. There was such a heat to this fire. There was such a heat to this fire, it was melting cement. So let's get into, now that we've talked about the problem let's get into how wow's fire insurance services is working to resolve this you work with brokers

you work with homeowners give us a rundown of what you guys are doing there right now it's not an insurance conversation for the fire affected areas well we've been i've been speaking on multiple as i mentioned earlier a lot of community events and starting to work on and work through. I've had 25 years experience of being in every major fire, Chris. I'm sorry to say. We built a five-step. I have a five-step process for recovery. We call it a five-step process for recovery.

And it's a chain process. It's not like five things to do. It's an order. One, two, three, four, five, following each other. As crazy as it sounds, Chris, and I'm sorry to say this, as we're pushing towards a week removed from the fire where a lot of this happened, there are people that have lost their homes that still have the first step is simply filing a claim. There's a lot of people right now that have lost their homes that are and it's

devastating they are they they've done the right thing they've gotten away from the situation they've got temporary housing whether it's a whether it's a hotel or some same with friends and obviously this being such a devastating event you know i i talk about virtual hugs i'm on helping people giving everyone a virtual hug. And part of that hug, though, Chris is kind of funny. It's a hug saying I'm sorry, but it's also a hug to pick them up off the ground. And talk start talking about things they have to do. And with that situation, filing a claim, making sure you have a claim

number, and making sure you have a claim adjuster is the most it starts off as number one, you have to have done once that's completed you can go to step two step two as crazy as it sounds is certifying the home as a total loss okay now why it's important to certify total loss is when you once you certify a home as a total loss the insurance companies are required to give you percentages of both your additional living expenses and your contents coverage. And it allows you to sign long-term leases. We had one report of a friend of ours, contact, that people are contacting for rent in New Mexico from this fire. Oregon, Washington, New Mexico, people are scattering. And that's a lot of it has to do with technology right now, Chris.

I mean, like an example we talked about prior to the show, you could set up in a lot of places, people that are remote. I've recommended to seniors that, hey, you might not want to be in Los Angeles right now while they figure this all out. Get yourself somewhere, Park City, Utah, Bend, Oregon, go to Las Vegas, go to Nevada, get yourself because you can rent potentially if you can get away with it, whether you're a remote person or whether you are a retired, if you're

retired, you might have that availability to get away from. But number two, when you certify, allows you to get to number three. Number three is securing where you're going to live. Because once you have the claim secured and you have it certified as a total loss, it allows you to open up step three, which is long-term housing. This is not going to be done in six months. This is going to be years. Yeah, it's going to be years. So then in the fourth step, once we get that third one done

you laugh chris the fourth step sounds very early but it's very important to do in your claims process it's to hire in essence work with and look to get in a architect a licensed architect to start to do your house to build the plans for your house. Insurance companies, once you've certified a total loss and you have that claim number and claim adjuster, once you have the, the architect will put a bid together for you to redo the design plans for your house. The insurance company is going to pay that

as part of your coverage. And that gets the ball started. Once they have the architectural plans, you can get to a builder, which is the last step. And people go, Robert, it might be years before they can get to this properties because of how bad it is. You're right.

But by having all five of these steps completed with a builder giving you a bid, it also allows the insurance company to pay you all your money that you're needing for the rebuild. So it's why these five steps are so very important, Chris. It's going to be interesting too, because it's going to drive up rents in other areas as these people get displaced, which we already have a housing crisis and crazy rents and crazy, all that stuff. We already have a shortage of homes too so there's

not enough for everybody so it's going to create a lot of pressures in other environments my friends in silicon valley and san francisco say a lot of people moved up there from pacific palisades and you know it's probably going to be displacement to the point that some people maybe not return is i think that's going to happen a lot chris i. I think that's going to happen a lot, Chris. I really honestly think that's going to be a really big thing. I think there's a certain segment now, it might be 5% or 10%. It could be 25%. We don't know, but I think this would be a good sizable amount of people

that will not return. How does homeowners insurance work on the payout for something like this? Do you have to rebuild in the area where they pay you the full amount of your loss if you decide to relocate someplace and you're like fucking i'm never going back there yeah okay so really what i usually give as advice is you want to get through those five steps okay at least we're to the builder because once you actually have your architectural plans and you have a builder that gives you a bid to rebuild your house, here's the bid to rebuild your house, and here's the costs, that will get you the money that you would potentially. If you do not get to that point, you could be shrinking your total or you're not going to be maximizing your potential coverages with your insurance company.

So it's why you want to get to that fifth step because you can then look to maximize. So it'll be interesting to see how this pans out. I mean, I don't know, man. It's on the fly, Chris. This is not normal. This is not a normal fire. There's going to be rules that are going to be changing. I was on with a really big name you would know today, Realty Chain. And one of the questions, I had over 500 realtors on it. And what they were asking questions on is like, okay, well, how is this? The answer is we're going to be 85% the same. 15% is going to change. And what the 15% is, I can't tell you.

So we have to wait to see what happens. Wow. I wonder if there's any chance one of the problems that, you know, California has is it's known for just incredible amounts of permits and time it takes to build anything. You know, Bill Maher was recently, you know, for a couple of years has been going on about how I think it took five or seven years for him just to be able to add solar panels to his back of his house. Yeah, that's crazy. Coatings for it. That's got to add solar panels to his back of his house yeah that's crazy coatings for it and so that's got to change that's got to change it seems like that that does need to change it has to at least for this if it doesn't well you know it's funny they've already have made announcements now that they're all of the different things that cause that they're

relaxing all the rules you know in essence to do it but they do that a lot of times in when fire major catastrophes happen oh do they the problem is is again einstein's theory of insanity chris are we gonna go here we're doing the same over over again and we're going back i mean we got to make changes we got to make changes man if we don't we're going to be in the same road over and over and over again and it seems like i think we need to prepare i don't i don't think i'm any i'm thinking i'm calling out of school here but it seems like what we need to do is also prepare that these are going to get worse over time yes and climate change disasters and everything else well and that goes back to my earlier comment chris if if you're

going to get i'm i am a George Patton fan, a famous Tank Commander fan. I read his memoirs. Any battle can be won if it's properly planned for with proper resources. You mean we have to plan? So to your point, Chris, you're 100% right. These events

continue to get worse. If we don't mitigate, if we don't do things to make the changes you're not properly planning for it you're just going to end up losing the fight so who are the prospective customers for you or people that you want to work with out there that might be listening on the show and and and why should they be reaching out to you so that you can help them with whatever they need? Well, first and foremost, we are a wholesaler.

So we bring insurance carriers into California and work with over 3,000 brokers. That's what we talked about prior to. At this moment, we are just helping everyone take a deep breath. There's a lot of bad information out there. I mentioned to you earlier, my email is robert at wows, W-O-W-S, insurance.com. I'm answering 200 to 300 emails a day and taking probably over 100 calls. Holy cow. And the reason why we're doing it is this is what I like to think is we're all hands on deck. This is not a moment where, you know, I think a lot of times I could easily shy away and help clients only or help brokers that have clients.

I answer phone if someone needs help i've said this on every major realtor chain that i've worked with at the team meetings or zoom meetings and i've been i've been helping people i i was going to about 11 15 last night and i got up this morning at the crack of dawn to go to the gym because i knew it's the one hour chris i would would get by myself. So other than that, it's going to be pretty wild all day. Well, we appreciate your support and helping people. I'm sure there's a lot of people. You know, maybe the people, are you getting reach out from the people who, you know, their home hasn't burned down,

they're in some of the other areas, but, you know, they're looking for insurance. Yep, we do that too. I mean, we'll help with, because we're helping people get out of the moratoriums and helping get people to insurance carriers. The ones that haven't gotten damaged are areas, peripheral areas that are being canceled right now still. We're still helping with, we have multiple programs and we get consumers to the right spots. Well, it's great that you're doing that and stuff. Anything more we need to let people know about

what they can do and how they can reach out to you etc etc absolutely first and foremost is the five steps are really so very important for any of those anyone that's listening right now that would like those obviously I mentioned a couple times if you don't want to hit you get in the rewind you can easily email me at Robert at Wow's w-o-w-s insurance comm you can see our website at wowsinsurance.com. We're just here to change not just California, but the West United States. And we're at the tip of the spear, as we say, to try to make that change. Well, we certainly appreciate it.

Thank you very much for coming on the show, Robert, as always. The honor's mine, Chris. The honor's mine. I'd like to say we don't want to have you back anymore for any future fires, but they'll probably have to have you back for more education and future disasters i think the update would be great every so often just for your cons your clients right now he's got to kick back in and get keep giving everybody updates yeah and florida needs help too i'm sure that florida is they're so funny i was asked by one of the major insurance insurance because they

like the concept of wow so much they asked where i want to be in florida i go i got to help california and west united states first so yeah that's true it's the biggest economy it's the They like the concept of WoW so much. They ask me where I want to be in Florida. I go, I've got to help California and the West United States first. That's true. It's the biggest economy. It's the fifth biggest economy in the world, I think, still. Bigger than Germany. We can't have LA go down. I think movies are still our number one export these days.

So, you know, we can't have Hollywood get lost, I guess. Anyway, thank you very much robert for coming the show uh we'll check out your thing and our thoughts go out to everyone who suffered through this event and hang in there seeing the seeing the people of la get together i saw a picture of what looked like a whole mob of people that had shovels and and cleaning materials and stuff that were going out to help start cleaning up lots of things. Yep. Seeing the outpouring of human.

It's the greatest thing about us. The greatest thing about us is when things are terrible, the good of humanity steps in and we rally. And that's what you're seeing right now. And that's the greatest thing. If we can always remember to do that when times aren't in crisis, that should buy together and help each other and lift each other but thank you very much for coming the show thanks for joining us for tuning in go to goodreads.com forces chris fos linkedin.com fortress chris fuss chris fos one chris fuss chris was one of the tick tock i guess unless they close it in three days the supreme court just announced that, they can shut it down, so we'll see what happens

here. Or go to Goodreads, or what is it, chrisfossfacebook.com. Anyway, guys, thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time.