The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Catch People Doing Things Right: How Ken Blanchard Changed the Way the World Leads by Martha C. Lawrence

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Catch People Doing Things Right: How Ken Blanchard Changed the Way the World Leads by Martha C. Lawrence https://www.amazon.com/Catch-People-Doing-Things-Right/dp/B0DTP1BCYM Marthalawrence.com This candid business biography reveals how bestselling author, speaker, and business consultant Ken Blanchard revolutionized management by leading with love and service. Ken Blanchard transformed modern leadership theory through unlikely means—by catching people doing things right. Written like a novel with warmth and humor, this authorized biography reveals how a mediocre student who was told he "couldn't write" became a bestselling author and a globally renowned management expert. Through extensive access to personal papers, letters, and interviews spanning six decades, Martha Lawrence paints an intimate portrait of the man behind The One Minute Manager and dozens of other influential books. From his early days coaching Cub Scouts to building a worldwide training organization, Blanchard demonstrated that nice guys can finish first by focusing on serving rather than being served. During pivotal moments—his sister’s tragic death, losing his home to wildfire, economic downturns threatening his company—Blanchard’s optimistic leadership philosophy was tested. Yet his unwavering commitment to bringing out the best in others while leading with love created a lasting legacy that continues to influence organizations globally. More than just a business biography, this book shows an American success story of someone who achieved greatness not through ruthless ambition but by genuinely caring about people and helping them reach their full potential. Blanchard’s story offers an inspiring road map for anyone seeking to lead with both results and relationships in mind.

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Because you're about to go on a moment. monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss here from the christmas show dot com there you guys young on and things that makes it official welcome to the biggest brain bleed show on the internet i don't know if that's really curious i've seen a lot of brain bleeding on twitter so there might be some uh there might be some but ours is a good kind of brain bleed that expands your brain and there's a little bit of bleeding because you know you got to grow it and then sometimes it gets too big for your skull, which is the problem most people listen to the show have.

But as always, before the show of your family, friends and relatives, go to goodrease.com, forechesschristch,christch, frisphos, YouTube.com, foreshestchchchchchchchfoss, LinkedIn.com, forechesschchchchchrist, and all those crazy places in the internet. Today is amazing lady on the show where we're talking about her hot new book

that's coming up to presses. October 21st, 2025, is entitled, Catch people doing things right. How can Blanchard changed? The Way the World Leads by Martha C. Lawrence, and she's going to be joining us on the show. She's a former editor, one of our favorite book companies that books us all the time, Simon & Schuster and Harcutt. She has shaped the voices of many of the world's most successful thought leaders,

an executive editor at Blanchard. She has collaboratively with Ken Blanchard for more than 20 years, including on TrustWorks, winner of the San Diego Book Award. Her editing credits include multimillion dollar or multi-million copy bestseller. and the New York Times number one titles. She is also the author of an Edgar, Anthony, Agatha, and Seamus nominated mystery series through private investigator Elizabeth Chase. Welcome to the show. Martha, how are you? I am doing really well.

And I just have to say, Chris, you have the most amazing intro of any podcast I've ever been on. It's awesome. Thank you. And it all goes downhill from there. That was the peak. We peaked already. So, Martha, give us your dot coms. wherever on the internet, you want people to find out more about you.

You can go to Martha Lawrence.com. That's L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E, Martha Lawrence.com. And I'm going to be talking about the legendary Ken Blanchard. I highly recommend you check out Blanchard.com. If you're interested at all in leadership, whether you're an individual contributor or a giant organization looking to do a big initiative, there's something for everybody there. Now, let's lay a foundation. Who was Ken Blanchard? You know, there's a few people outliers out there that may have not heard of him. Let's lay a friend out sure of who this gentleman is. According to the American Management Association, he is one of the most influential leadership authorities of the last century. I mean, he influenced people like Brene Brown, Simon Cynick, you know, all of today's leadership celebrities, as it were. He actually started out as a university.

professor, studying organizational leadership. He taught at Cornell and at University of Madison. I'm not University of Madison, University of Massachusetts and Hearst. And he was on sabbatical in California. Somebody invited him to speak at a young president's organization event. I don't know if you know that organization for presidents of organizations making. I think at that time it was like they had to make at least five million dollars a year in revenue. Anyway, Ken was so charismatic during his speeches that, you know, the audience jumped up, standing ovation and the organizers of the event said, Blanchard, what are you going to do next? You know, you're a huge success. And he said, I'm going to go back to the university and teach. And they said, you're crazy. When you're hot,

you're hot, you need to start your own company. And he said, start my own company. I can't even balance my own checkbook. How am I going to start my own company? And they said, we'll help you. So he had this advisory panel and they helped him start a leadership organization that's been around for 45 years now. So Ken Blanchard is, he's just basically a leadership legend. And he's written a ton of books. In fact, when most people probably aware of is the one-minute manager. The one-minute manager. Yeah. While he was out in California in 1980, he met a guy named Spencer Johnson at a cocktail party. And he was interested in business. Spencer had been writing children's books. And Ken's wife introduced the two of them. And she said, you know, Spencer writes children's books,

you're writing a book for managers. Why don't you write a children's book for managers? They won't read anything else. So they wrote this book, the one-minute manager, which was such an outlier at that time in the 1980s. Business books tended to be long and dry and boring. And people didn't really read them. Ken and Spencer wrote this little 100-page parable about a young man who was looking for an effective manager. And along the way, you learn these three secrets of management. And it was just as sensation. I mean, it was everywhere. It was on the New York Times bestseller list for three years. It was a pass-along book. It sold tens of millions of copies around the world. And it continues to sell today as the new one-minute manager. So that's how most people know Ken Blanchard.

A lot of books in that one-minute manager, they kind of expanded it to a lot of different, you know. You know, that was the publisher who encouraged that, you know, the kind of the early branding days. Well, we've got this winner with the one-minute manager. Let's put the one-minute manager to work. Let's do leadership in the one-minute manager. Let's do, you know, the one-minute entrepreneur. Let's do, yeah, so there are a lot of books in the series. Yeah.

I mean, it became like, what's that chicken of the soul or whatever? Yeah, chicken soup for the soul. But I have to say, there's a lot of substantive information in Ken's books. They're accessible and easy to read and fun to read, but it doesn't mean there aren't heavily researched, really actionable to-dos you'll get out of those books. Some of the best stories and lessons are parables, you know, seeing other people in how they behave through the eyes of a story, as opposed to me just telling you, like, how to be the one-minute manager, is brilliant. Spot on, Chris, and that's exactly what Ken said. You know, when you read something that's straight up nonfiction, your critical brain comes in and starts arguing with the author.

If you're reading a story, you're just following along in the lives of these characters and the learning sort of sneaks in there, you know, the back door. Yeah. Exactly. That's what we do in the Chris Vos show. We have the learning sneak in the back door. Might steal some milk and some orange juice and some bread, but, you know, that's the cost to do it. I was thinking about how small.

you must be, Chris, because you have interviewed so many incredibly intelligent people. And, you know, wow, what a career. Well, I'm so dumb. I make them look even smarter and more amazing than they already do. No, no, I've just been lucky. I've been a CEO and had my companies all my life since 18, and I've always collected lots of different data, followed the news, followed life. and I'm kind of like a, I'm a master of everything and nothing, a master of half-assnowing knowledge.

And so I have enough that I can just, I can usually keep up with people or, you know, make them look even better. But we have such great guests in the show. So in this book, what are we trying to accomplish? Clearly, it's not the one-minute manager series. So what are we, what are we focusing on in this book? Well, here's why I wrote the book. You know, I'm an author first and foremost. And there are so many biographies out there of business celebrities who have done amazing,

innovative things. They're fascinating people, you know, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, you know, a lot of those stories out there. But I felt like the time was right to tell the story of someone who became a huge success, not by pushing and shoving for attention or using other people, but by lifting other people up. So Ken Blanchard, not only does he teach about things like servant leadership, but he also lives that way. And so it's just a really inspiring story about someone who basically went from, I mean, in college, his professors told him he couldn't write. And he goes on to write one of the best-selling business books of all time.

You know, he wanted to be a university dean. That was really what he wanted to do. But apparently there were some recommendations in his file that were very negative. So when he went for those interviews, this was in the days before the Freedom of Information Act when you couldn't see what was in your personnel file. And he had this really great interview to possibly enter administration at Dartmouth. And he called the guy who interviewed him and said, you know, I thought we really had a connection. I really expected to hear from you.

And he said, sorry, Ken, you've got some terrible recommendations. Well, what do they say? And he said, Ken Blanchard's a great guy. He's fabulous with students, but don't let him near the faculty because he has no academic interest. And they said, you know, another guy said, oh, Ken Blanchard, he's fantastic, but he's not particularly intelligent. So to overcome that and go on to become one of the foremost leadership authorities

in the world, you know, what, it's an interesting story. What kind of human being, how do you overcome those challenges? And I think for all of us, we're all in business. we're all doing something. It's an inspiring story. He learned a lot about leadership from his father who retired as a rear admiral in the Navy and taught him about leadership. And, you know, when he was in seventh grade, he was interested in leader. Ken was interested in leadership really early in his life. And when he was in the seventh grade, he became the president of his seventh grade class. And he went running home and he said to his dad, well, I'm the

president of the seventh grade. I'm president. And his dad said, Ken, that's great. Now that you you have that title, don't ever use it. People follow leaders, not because they have a fancy title, but because people trust and respect them. And so Ken took a lot of those things away with him and really applied those lessons throughout his life. Yeah. I used to have a thing on my desk. It's in my storage thing. I think I tripped over the other day. And it was a picture of like, I think an eagle or a wolf, but it basically said, you know, your title doesn't mean anything. You have to earn it every day, something of that effect. And kind of like what he, they said, you know, it's not about the title.

It's about, you know, what you do every day to earn it. And it is an earned title. I mean, I've owned my companies since 18, but, and I could just lord around and be the boss. Might have done that a couple times. But, you know, every day you've got to earn the trust of your people. You've got to lead them and, uh, and inspire them. So would you call this like a memoir or a biography or? It's a biography. So it is a biography. It is not Ken Blanchard writing. It's me. I started, I actually started doing research for this book back in 2005. So this is the culmination of about 20 years of, you know, interviewing friends, some of whom have passed away, going through correspondence. It's a straight up biography of a leadership authority. It's a story of Ken Blanchard's life. And, you know, just had some fascinating interviews with people,

like Tom Peters and there are all kinds of stories in there. You know, Ken, Ken has, he has encountered, oh, there's stories about him meeting Martin Luther King when he was in college and, you know, his encounters with Donald Trump, his encounters with Jimmy Carter, Colin Powell. There's a lot of, there's a lot of really interesting stories in the book. I mean, he, I mean, it's probably, uh, unmeasurable as how many millions of people he, he helped. but we were joking before the show in the green room

about the old Nightingale Cohnit tapes used to say yeah and you know Earl Nightingale Tom Peters, Ken Blanchard all those Brian Tracy I can't even remember all the names John Maxwell

Oh yeah I even had records at one point early on my dad had a lot of records of Earl Nightingale and and think of grow rich guy Napoleon Hill and those guys And what a great era that was like you don't see too many people merging like that now is those type of people. Well, it was dispersed of, you know, positive energy.

And I feel like that's what we, that's what we need now. And, you know, you were talking about leadership. And here you have this podcast, you know, and you're in a leadership position. And Ken's message is about, you know, if you're in a leadership position, you're supposed to be serving, not being served. You know, it's all about, it's all about lifting other people. up. And I think that's what we need to keep in mind. I remember my book Beacon's leadership and talked about, it's kind of a memoir, pseudo, kind of my toolbox of what I used to be successful and how I became successful as an entrepreneur.

But, I mean, influences like him, those are the people that shaped me early on. I mean, I remember, I can't remember when I started getting the tapes, but I never read to college. I just started my first company 18 and never looked back. And, you know, people will tell me, they're like, well, you know, it's great. You just, you just went and did it and you were successful. I was like, no, I educated myself. You know, I read books like his. I remember reading the one-minute manager, and I had the whole collection of the one-minute stuff there, the whole brand stuff. I read all those books and probably other of his books that I had at one time in the physical library.

And, yeah, I mean, these people will shape me. They inspired me. I probably owe them for the success that I had in life because that was my education instead of going and learning and I'm not downgrading what colleges do, but I focused on kind of what Henry Ford did. I focused on what I needed to learn to do the stuff that I wanted to do as opposed to, you know, there's a lot of stuff you learn in college that, you know, you may or may not use in the future. But, you know, I immerse myself in books like his, Napoleon Hill, think you grow rich or I remember reading that was 18. I was probably getting all that material around 18 and it had a huge impact of my life, shaped it and brought me here. So thanks to Ken Blanchard. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know,

you probably have earned about five honorary PhDs doing all the work you can do with this podcast. And all the companies I've built and failed and all the fun that I've had. What do you hope people get from this book? What do you hope they come away with? Well, I hope people, particularly if they're discouraged, you know, about the direction corporate America is going, the direction the world is going, anyone who needs a boost. I hope they'll pick up the book and read about someone who overcame a lot of challenges. And I hope that it continues Ken's legacy. You know, he's 86 years young now. And people need to know where this came from, the idea that results are important, but relationships are just as important as results in business.

You know, it's really all about people. And that's really what I hope people get out of the book. And I think, too, people knowing his struggle and what he overcame as well, you know, like I talked about, the knowing that we're human, you know, some people see you when you're successful and they just go, oh, you must have just born with this or whatever. And you're like, no, you know, I used to be an introvert. I wasn't interested in talking to people. I mean, I was a huge interview as a child growing up, and in my early 20s, I was a huge

introvert. The only thing I had to learn was, you know, owning companies and running them and being the CEO, you had to communicate with people. You have to have a vision. You have to lead people. And then, of course, I learned that through Ken Blancher and other people from the Earl Nightingale series, or the Nightingale series, and reading books, Zigler, of course, et cetera, et cetera. And they changed my life.

I mean, I shuddered to think about where I would be here today. with some of those influences. That is so cool, Chris. And, you know, what you find out is it's not about you, you know. I think most authors hate doing publicity. And earlier in my career, I hated it. But it's really about the message and serving people. Not about you, you know, so.

And sharing your stories because you just never know who these stories impact. Yeah. And, you know, his life, I mean, he lost his home to a wildfire in 2007. I mean, yes, he's, he's, he's, he's, white guy. He's an old white guy. And sure, sure, he was had certain privileges. No question about that. But he, you know, he lost his sister, tragically young. There are all kinds of things that happened in his life that he had to overcome. So that's another reason to pick up the book is, you know, to find out how someone else navigates those hardships. Yeah. And leadership is so important. Like I talked about

my book and I sure Ken has talked about this as well. You know, anybody can be a leader. There's so many people when I talk to him, they're like, well, I can't be a leader, Chris, until someone makes me a CEO or manager. No, everyone can be a leader. The parents are leaders, or at least they should be. Sometimes the kids are leaders. Those teenagers. A person on the street who sees a crisis, a woman in danger. You know, I just saw a woman the other day. A random man, random woman, she fell in the tracks or something. This is over in Europe. And he grabbed her and pulled her to safety. And, you know, that's a leader. That's taking initiative in a moment where probably everyone, you know, I've seen those moments where people will fall back or they'll go, oh, you know,

I don't want to get involved. And a leader, you know, makes those initiatives. You're hitting the nail on the head, Chris, because what Ken Blanchard learned and studied and taught way back when he was a university professor is that leadership is an influence process. It's not in a title. It's an influence process and you're spot on you know his the greatest leaders in his life were his parents you know his mom taught him there's a pearl of goodness and everyone dig for it you know you're not more important than anybody else but nobody else is more important than you i mean those are important messages and teachers and coaches yeah the if you're influencing the behavior of another person you are a leader it's not about a title and he is he is and you

get extensive access to his personal papers, his letters, and his interviews, spending six decades of his career. Boy, that's got to be a treasure trove. Oh, such a treasure trove. I mean, yeah, letters from Colin Powell, a letter from Donald Trump inviting him to, you know, write, write his favorite advice about playing golf, you know, for a book that Trump was doing at that time with crown books, you know, all kinds of stuff. But what really impressed me about going through all that stuff was to see how early Ken was interested in leadership. He actually went to school. Think of this. This is kind of mind-blowing, Chris. He went to school before Brown versus Board of Education, which was the Supreme Court decision in 1954 that desegregated the schools.

Ken actually went to a segregated elementary school, but he was a basketball player. He had a killer outside jump shot, and he played around city leagues and became friends with a lot of black kids. And so by the time the schools were integrated when he went to high school, his high school was integrated. But he noticed there was a lot of siloing. And one of his good friends, Bob Brown, who was a black kid, they got together and started something called the fellowship, the student fellowship. And it was to bring kids from different ethnic groups and races together and, you know, make the school a better place. So, you know, that was. interesting to me that he was he was interested in leadership from the get-go he was a born leader

there's i think there's i don't know we we've we've had a lot of leadership discussion on the show and a lot of great authors like yourself and uh you know this we've always had this discussion sometimes are great leaders born or can they be developed i think i think i must have been a leader from birth i i often refer to me and my brothers two kings uh which sounds really narcissistic doesn't it no it does doesn't. No, it's just describing what is, you know. Yeah. But we always kind of had, I just always had that kind of leadership sort of thing. But I never really, I don't think I really became a leader maybe until my 20s, running companies and then kind of honing my two blocks of skills. But I think people can become leaders if they're not. Because like I said, I grew up a huge introvert. Now I'm a huge extrovert. They won't shut up. And people are like, can you go back to the introvert thing? And, Yeah. Well, you know, I think both can be true. You know, there are born leaders, but if it weren't true that we could develop leaders, Ken Blancher wouldn't have had a successful company for the past 45 years. There are things that you can do to teach people how to be better leaders. And you've probably talked about this on the show, Chris, how a lot of times a brilliant individual contributor will get promoted into a position of leadership. And they may be great at what they were. individually contributing, but they're terrible with people. And so you have to show those people, you know, how to, how to lead, you know, you don't

just tell people. And hence the title of the book, catch people doing things right. I think a lot of times managers think their job is to wait around until somebody makes a mistake and then jump on them and correct them. And that, of course, is not good leadership. So the idea. I call that gotcha leadership. Gotcha leadership.

Yeah. I cut you fucking up. Yeah. And then you don't, they don't recognize you when you do the good stuff. It's only when you screw up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ken used to tell this story about, he called them Seagull managers where, you know, they, they would just be unavailable until something went wrong.

Then they'd fly in, dump all over everybody, make a lot of noise, and fly out, you know. Wow, that's an analogy to think about. Oh, yeah. Don't be a single manager, yeah. Yeah, the seagull manager, take a dump on everybody and then, you know, steal all the popcorn. That's easy what I do in the break room. Steal all the popcorn. I'm not sure.

HR knows that. I think I can just gotten, oh, I'm getting a ping from HR now. So anyway, yeah, I was going to ask you about that, catching people doing the things right. Was that an axiom of his? Was that something that he, a mantra that maybe he followed? Yeah, yeah, somebody asked him. They said, Ken, you've, you've taught so many. leadership lessons over the years. If you could only hold on to one thing, what would it be?

And he said, it would be catch people doing things right because people don't get enough acknowledgement or praising. And it's something that motivates people. Now, let me just clarify. It doesn't mean a shallow, toxic positivity type thing where you just go, hey, great job. That's kind of meaningless. It's not going to have an impact. You want to tell the person, notice what they did. Feel how what they did made a difference to you. Tell the person, hey, when you did this, this is what I felt. This is the difference it made in my life. Thank you so much. You know, even if it's something like catching your spouse taking out the trash when it was your turn, you know, hey, honey, I want to thank you yesterday. I was totally stressed out. And when you

did that, I felt so loved and supportive. Thank you so much for that. I mean, it's amazing how just a little acknowledgement goes a long way. And we're so programmed, Chris, we have negativity bias. You know, it's not our fault. As human beings, our species had to look for what was going wrong on the savannah. And if there was something sketchy, we had to jump on it so it didn't kill us, right? So it's way, way back in there in our amygdala, you know, to catch people doing things wrong. But it really doesn't work in relationships. So that, that along with many other, you know, Ken has so many sayings, you know, none of us is as smart as all of us. Life is a special occasion. Don't miss it. I love that one. I love it. And these are all in the book?

Yeah. Each chapter opens with a Ken quote. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And there's a photo section in the book where you can see Ken in with his bushy 1970 sideburns as a professor and you know picking through the ashes of his house that burned down you know all that stuff yeah i'd like to read about how he overcame those sideburns from the 70s because i grew up in that era and boy they all had me my own dad did i had those Elvis sideburns did you wear polyester suits oh yeah yeah yeah it was a corduroy suit the one that's got it's almost like a carpet yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh Okay, I dare you to show a photo of that on your podcast. There's, I think there's one somewhere.

That would be kind of funny. I know there's some suit photos of me back in the day, but yeah, I was a big J.C. Penny Sears connoisseur of high fashion. Yeah, why not? Those old Sears J.C. Penny business shirts. And then when I finally got successful, I was able to have custom tailored stuff, everything. I have one of those problems where my arms are like two-inch. is longer than most people's. Oh, believe me. I have a

freaking nature problem. Yeah. Are you a tall guy? I'm very tall 6-2 and my dad had huge feet. My dad, back in the day, back when Vance was in California and they were just coming up, they're like a little shop. It's kind of funny to think about now, but he has

he had two different feet. He had a 14 and a 13 and he had a large 13. So he had to have shoes because of me. What a pain. Wow. I have the same disease, but mine's not quite as prevalent. And usually I can just fit a 14 on it, so everyone's happy. But yeah, I remember those old JC Penny Sear going out to Sears, getting the cheap ties. And then I was so elated when I finally reached success where I could buy the nice

dice. But so as we go out, anything more you want to share about the book and what's going on with Ken Blanchard and all the works that he's doing? Well, I just encourage people to visit Amazon and pick up a copy of catch people doing things right for the for the young manager in your life you know if you want to inspire someone who's just starting out in business or if your dad gave you the one-minute manager you know he'd probably appreciate a copy of the against biography also again check out blancher.com if you want to learn more about leadership there's a ton of information on there and and yeah and just catch people doing things right remember that

that, you know, if you're in a leadership role, you're here to serve, not to be served. So get your ego out of the way and see what you can do to serve others. Yeah, it's really important to do that and focus on becoming a good leader. There's so many people I talk to in leadership. And I guess it's shocking to me still that it's around because I listen to Ken Blancher and so many of these great leaders all the time. But maybe I just grew up with them and other people didn't. But I ask so many leaders, like, what is your leadership style? Or what are some of the functions of your leadership?

What is your toolbox? And you're like, well, it's not working. So maybe you should have some self-interrespective. You know, people, I think that's what they think that if you're a nice guy, it's somehow going to interfere with your bottom line. You're not going to get the results. And the opposite is true. When you take care of your people, they take care of your customers.

that takes care of your bottom line. Chiching, to ching, chiching, and that takes care of the results. Yeah, checking in with people, you know, touching hearts and minds, don't actually touch them, folks. That's an old term I used because I would go around my office and I check in with my salespeople or my employees. And I would, I called it touching hearts and minds,

but that was, you know, in the 90s before things got weird. And for me, it was finding out what was going on in their lives, making sure their heads are clear, because, you know, salespeople, especially, if they have some sort of conflict at home or they get, you know, they'll get like little things caught in their head. And when they do, their sales will suffer. So sometimes you've got to go in there as a psychologist and help clean them out. But also checking in with people and know you care.

You're not just showing up going, where are your TPS reports and what do you, how many sales do you have today? Damn it. You know, you're like, how are you doing, man? You doing good? Yeah. You know, communicating that you give a shit about their personal well-being, I think is a real important thing in leadership. Absolutely.

Yeah. Unlike what I do in the office. I don't give a fuck about you, people. Do your goddamn work. I'm firing you. No, I'm just kidding. I don't do that. Just on Fridays, maybe, when I get angry or something.

When I get hangary, I do that. Yeah, me too. I'm angry. Angry on Fridays. So thank you very much for coming in the show. We really appreciate it, Martha. It's been wonderful and insightful to have you on. Well, it's been wonderful to be with you, Chris.

keep up the good work. Thank you. We'll certainly try. They may, you know, if I die, I hope they just get AI to replace me on the show. Probably won't be as funny or ugly, but, you know, maybe a good-looking person on the show that looks like James Bond or something replace me. An AI thing would be good. I don't know, but they've got to be funny because that's what the people like. Martha, give us your dot coms one less time as we go out too. Martha Lawrence.com, M-A-R-T-H-A-L-A-W-R-E-N-C-E dot com, and again, blanchard.com for all you leaders out there. Thank you, Martha, for coming the show. Order of the book wherever fine books are sold. It is entitled, Catch People, Doing Things Right. How can Blanchard change the way the world leads?

And please go read his other books, too, after you read this one out October 21st, 2025. Thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Foss. LinkedIn.com, Fortess, Chris Foss, 1 on the TikTokity, and Chris Foss, YouTube, Fort S Chris Foss. They're all out there. Anyway, folks, be good to each other. Stay safe.

We'll see you guys next time. And that should have a second.