The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Climbing The Hill by Amadou Camara

Episode Date: September 7, 2025

Climbing The Hill by Amadou Camara https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FK1RKBKL "I come from a place where survival was a victory, and every step forward was a quiet act of defiance." From the dusty streets of Dar es Salam in Guinea Conakry to the drafting tables of the United States, Climbing The Hill is the powerful true story of one boy's journey through poverty, loss, and unrelenting adversity toward a life shaped by hope, resilience, and purpose. Born into hardship, Amadou Camara faced a childhood where survival was never guaranteed. Yet even amid overwhelming circumstances, he dared to dream of a better life. With unwavering determination and strength, he carved a path forward, ultimately transforming himself from a struggling boy into a successful architectural designer in the U.S. This deeply moving memoir explores themes of perseverance, trauma, healing, and the transformative power of vision. More than a personal account, Climbing The Hill is a universal story for anyone who has ever fought to rise above their beginnings and believed in something greater beyond the struggle.About The Author Amadou Camara was born in Guinea-Conakry, where his childhood was marked by trauma, hardship, and the kind of silence that often surrounds suffering. In a world where abuse was normalized and children's voices were rarely heard, Amadou endured, but he also dreamed. His memoir is a testament to the strength it takes to survive when survival is not guaranteed, and to rise when the world teaches you to remain small. Arriving in the United States after winning the Diversity Visa Lottery in 2013, Amadou faced a new set of challenges: a foreign land, a new language, and the weight of starting over. But with the same resilience that carried him through his childhood, he built a life from the ground up-one rooted in purpose, healing, and hope. Today, Amadou lives in Madison, Wisconsin with his wife, Oumou, and their miracle daughter, Aicha. He is a professional architectural designer with a five-year degree in architecture, working at Flad Architects, one of the top Architectural companies in the U.S-He brings his passion for the built environment to every project he touches-shaping spaces that heal and reflect dignity, strength, and vision. Amadou wrote this memoir not only to reflect on his own path to healing but to give voice to the countless children still enduring abuse in silence. His message is simple yet profound: no matter where you begin, you have the power to choose how your story continues. Pain may shape us, but it does not define us. With courage, hope, and unshakable will, we can all build a life worth remembering.

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Because you're about to go on a moment. monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hello, folks, Voss here from thecrisvoss Show.com. The latest gentleman there, and the latest season that makes official welcome to the big show. As always, Chris Voss show for 16 years, and going on 2,500 episodes has been sharing with you some of the most amazing stories, journeys, lessons of life, things that people have done with the cathartic moments and how they grew and changed for them.

And they come on the show and they teach you how to maybe survive. some of the things that you may have experienced as well or get some perspective or, you know, just learn something new. That's what I always do every day on the show. I learn new things every time from our wonderful guests and different perspectives, too. Sometimes there's a million different ways of looking at something and sometimes you don't see it, and so you get that sort of experience. But in the meantime, we must get you and cajole you to go to goodreads.com,

Fortress, Chris Voss, for your family, friends, and relatives. go to Facebook.com for us Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, for just Chris Foss. Chris Foss, 1, TikTokity, and all those crazy places on the internet. Opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or the Chris Foss show. Some guests of the show may be advertising on the podcast, but it is not an endorsement or review of any kind. Today, we have an amazing young man on the show. We're going to be talking about his book out July 18th, 2025 called Climing the Hill by Amadou Camara.

We're going to be getting into it with him on the show and finding out his interests and all that sort of good stuff. And as we talked to him about the show, he was born in Guinea where his childhood was marked by trauma, hardship, and the kind of silence that often surrounds suffering. In a world where abuse was normalized and children's voices were rarely heard, he found himself that he could endure, but he also dreamed. His memoir, which is the book, is a testament to the strength it takes to survive when survival is not guaranteed and to rise when the world teaches you to remain small. After arriving in the United States, after winning the Diversity Visa Lottery in 2013, he faced new challenges of foreign land, a new language, and the weight of starting over. With the same resilience that carried him through his childhood, he built his life from the ground up, rooted in purpose, healing, and hope. He now lives in Madison, Wisconsin with his wife and their miracle daughter. Welcome the show.

How are you? I'm doing fine. Give us your dot-coms. Where can people find you on the interwebs? People can find me on Instagram, climbing the hill, climbing underscore the hill, or people can also find me on my website, which is amadou camara, otter.com. Give us a 30,000 overview of what's inside your book. so climbing the hill is about the unseen wounds that we carry the pain the trauma the hardship but it's also about the power of self-transformation and self-belief you know chris like you said i was born into a place where dreams didn't have the luxury of being spoken out loud but i carried one anyway quietly so

I grew up in Guinea-Kanakri, where trauma wasn't rare at all. So it was expected, but I've always saw something beyond the pain that I was going through growing up with constant family demands, and I endure 15 years of my life, you know, like working for my family while my fellow friends were just playing and laughing. I was only seven years old when I started, you know, doing things for my family. And that kind of pain for 15 years, you know, it was very intense. And but I was always climbing towards something that was greater and I was looking for something to escape. You know, then in 2011, I won the diversity lottery, which is crazy because out of, I don't know if you're listening out there

And you don't know about the diversity lottery. It's a U.S. program, the government program that grants 100,000, that selects 100,000 people every year. And then 50,000 out of those people are granted a visa to come to the United States as a permanent resident and then later become a U.S. citizen. And everybody can play out of billions of people, and it was selected. And that was, that was the. Yeah, that was the opportunity that opened doors to me to come to America. And I came to America with zero English and $100 in my packet. 100 bucks.

And a small suitcase, but my head were full of dreams and aspirations. So that's why I wrote the book. I mean, and so when you're living in Guinea, you know, what was life like like that? What was the environment like? I know that some South African or African countries, there's a lot of wars and civil wars, and it seems like endless wars. What was it like there? When I was living in Guinea, Guinea didn't have a lot of – Guinea didn't have wars at all. It's actually a peaceful country, but it's just a level of corruption, the poverty, that people go through their day-to-day lives just to survive, just to be able to get food on the table.

So that's the kind of hardship that people are dealing with back home. And then people deal with issues of problems of getting water, for example. And that was my upbringing. Remember, like my upbringing in Guinea was the constant fight of getting water and electricity. Growing up in Guinea, that was the hardest part. Yeah, trying to just get the basics. Yes. And probably safety and things along those lines.

And everyone's probably competing for just the same basic fundamental things to have. Yeah. Food and water. I mean, basic things. And then so at what point do you decide to come to America or you decide to apply to come to America? And why would you do that? What was the interest there? So, as a child,

my mother left me in the hands of my grandmother when I was two years old and she went up north when she got remarried because I didn't know my father my father passed away earlier in my life so then from the age of seven all the way to the age of 15 I was constantly doing household chores for my family and when we experienced a viral crisis in 2000 around year 2000 so me and my aunt we would travel to my mom house to go get water. And then we leave at the top of a hill. That's why the name of the book, climbing the hill. So we leave at the type of a hill, which is a very steep hill, and we would go down the hill around 4 a.m. 5 a.m. 4m. and 5m. 4m. and 5m. will go down to get water. So, and then the climb back up the hill, and then I had to carry these 20-liter bottles, and I was only seven years old then. And then the pain that I experienced in my back was tremendous, was really hard. And then my feet felt like they were made out of lead, you know, climbing back up. So, and I experienced that for 15 years of my life with my family.

So because of that, that constant pain that I was experiencing, I was looking for opportunities that I didn't have. Until one day, I heard one of my friends saying, oh, you know, you can actually apply for the U.S. diversity lottery, which there's no guarantee that you could win, but you can actually apply. Then I was like, okay, maybe this is an opportunity for me just to apply and to go to America and study architecture because I've always wanted to study architecture. So that's the story. So now, tell us about the architecture influence. Did this begin and early age? Did you have an eye for it? How did that work out?

So for architecture, I wanted to become an architectural designer since I was. in Guinea because I wanted to build something that I never had, which you mentioned here, safety, one of the things, and then beauty and structure and vision because the constant fight of surviving and to redefining myself and rebuilding myself was something that was really hard and difficult for me. So I envisioned a life where I am a designer and I'm going to rebuild my life, but I'm also going to build structures as well. So that's where kind of like the architecture thing came from. And, you know, and then basically what I went through in my life, in my childhood experiences,

it taught me that strong foundations are invisible, but they hold everything together, you know, just like trust in one's power to achieve anything that you set, that you you set your mind into. So that's the idea, the core ideas that sparked interest in me to pursue architecture in order to redefine myself. And so what made you want to come to America? What was your, what was your perception of America that somehow you would have a better life here? Well, you know, like back home, like we were seeing America on TV, you know, Like, you see American TV, you see the buildings, you see, especially like I used to watch this show called Gossip Girl. Exactly.

So, yeah. All the things, yeah. Exactly. So I used to watch a show called Gossip Girl, but it was in French because we don't speak English. Oh, it was in French, but I always, you know, saw Columbia University. And then I was like, oh, wow, I would like to go to America and study. architecture at Columbia and and then you know like we had this idea of America being like heaven for people you know and people don't understand when you come to America you're going to have to

work harder even harder even harder to succeed in this country so we don't know that I didn't understand that back then but now I do yeah so yeah it's interesting I didn't ever do gossip girls would inspire the Great American Dream. But you probably see people on there living a life of opulence compared to where you're living now. I mean, you know, they got water coming out, faucets and stuff here and, you know, all that sort of innovative stuff. Running toilets and a seemingly abundance, I would imagine, is the perception there. Yeah, definitely wild. So you come here and did you come alone?

Did you come with other family? Did you have family here you were coming to? I came to America by myself, just me. When you win the Diversity Lottery as an individual, if you don't have a family, you are coming just by yourself. So I came to America. I landed in New York, New York, JFK. And the first thing that I was shocked by, I landed here in November around the wintertime. So the first thing that I was shocked by was just the snow because I've never seen snow before.

I've never experienced snow before and that was shocking for me. And then the cultural difference as well. And then I saw a lot of people that I've never seen, I've never seen that many people before in my life at the airport. So it was something that, you know, I was afraid, but I was also excited at the same time about, you know, about the future. You've got the beauty of opportunity and the excitement of hope, but, you know, there's danger and unknowns, and you're coming alone. What did your family think of letting you go? Or what did you, you know, was that hard to leave your family behind? It was a little bit harder to leave the family behind. Also, because of the sort of pain that I experienced with my family, I was excited to leave my family behind. And I came to America with a level of anxiety as well because back home when I was selected for the diversity lottery to come to America, my mother had taken a loan and she assumed that. And she told me that that I would be responsible for paying the loan back when I come to America without even knowing that whether you would have a job in America, will you, like,

Like, you know, things like that. You don't speak the language, any of that thing. And I literally had to gamble on myself in order for me to come to America. Yeah. So it was a gamble. I gambled on my future because I didn't know what life would be like in America. So I, you know, the only thing that I had was just hope. Right.

That hope and faith. Hope that everything will be fine. Yeah. And this is the beauty of the great American dream. People always came here. It's a melting pot. They came here and brought their stuff. So, you evidently found your footing.

Were there people here that were helpful to you and took you in and helped you get work? Yeah. When I first arrived and I landed in New York City, I had a sponsor because in order for you to come to America, you have to have an sponsor. So I had a sponsor that took me in for a couple of days. And that person, it's painful to tell. the story because when I arrived, that person received me, but the person was actually pushing me to find a job and contribute to his rents. And my perspective, my point of view was I came to America, I have to go back to school and learn English and then be able to acclimate better

and then be able to find a job later because how could you ask somebody to just three days after arriving to find a job you don't speak to language you don't speak to language you don't speak to language at all so that was i talked about it in my book how painful it was to just go around and looking for a job and without even knowing how to speak to language at all and the constant fight between me and my sponsor that i have i have to learn english i went to columbia university to register for ESL classes english as a second language and soon has a found out he told me that if I don't find a job that he will kick me out he would kick me out and then now you don't have anybody yeah you're alone in the yeah yeah yeah it's crazy dude

yeah yeah it's crazy you think they would vet some of these people they're supposed to be sponsors but uh you know i mean there's all sorts of interesting people in the world but yeah i mean it's one way to get your rent paid i guess uh yeah it's it's a bit unfair i mean If you don't speak the language and you don't have a working, you know, you're still trying to figure out what this America is all about, what's going on. You've come from this area that's, you know, desolate and resource weak. And, you know, you're trying to find your footing. That's crazy, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So did you, did you find a job? Or had that work out? So when I have people back then, people in my community, from people from, people from, Dina, they had to suggest that I go find a job to become a dishwasher, you know. But because of my background, the things that I talked in the book, the labor, the child abuse and the labor that I was doing back home was actually doing chores for my family as well. So I was drawn into cleaning my family's house, which is composed of five bedrooms, four bedrooms, and, in a kitchen and a living room and a bathroom.

So I was forced to clean that for 15 years. So you are constantly doing chores and dealing with soapy water. And, you know, like my clothes were always wet. And as I'm going to school, I cannot focus on the school material because my mind will always go back to getting water at 4 a.m. in the morning and then come back and I don't even have time to eat breakfast because I'm unloading all these heavy bottles and then I have to do clean the house

and then at seven I have to go to school. And then Sundays were also days that I had to go to my mother's older sister to do laundry for her family. So her husband, her three children, and then my clothes and then my grandmother's closed. So I would start around like 8am and do laundry all the way until 5 to 6 p.m. And then, you know, I was always on my back on the washerboard and washing the clothes. So when I came to America and people subjected for me to go and become a dishwasher,

that was a fear in me because that's the past that I'm trying to escape because it was a constant. reminder of the struggles that I've faced in Guinea and that's not what I wanted to be. And then I said, no, I'm going to be an architect and that's the path that I'm going to take no matter what. Regardless of what's going to happen, I will succeed and I will achieve what I want to do. So we want people to buy the book, so I can't tell all the story on the intro, but we want them to buy it and read it. But somewhere in there, you segue into learning the language, I guess, And then do you start going to maybe school for architecture and stuff? Yes, yes.

I started going to school for architecture when, you know, I, of course, I had to find a ways. I had to relocate. I have to change environment because New York was not working for me, so I left. But I started finding my way back to school when I actually took English as a second language at Georgia State University, which was primary college back then in Atlanta. So I had to go down to Atlanta and then, you know, try to redefine myself. So that's when I find ways to go back to school and to study architecture. And so you have this real attraction to architecture.

What type of architecture do you tend to like? right now like I do like healthcare architecture and I do also like doing lab planning science and technology so that's actually that's what I'm doing right now because you know the idea of designing spaces that actually heal people you know and yeah because that's my story you know yeah that's a good journey you're you're you're healing people and you know dealing with all those issues. And then I imagine you find family along the way. We mentioned in the bio that you're married and probably children, maybe.

Yes, I find my wife. She's very lovely. And, yeah, she used to live in Arizona. So I found her later in life when I moved to Wisconsin. You know, her brother is a good friend of mine. And actually, which is really crazy because he has the same name and last name as me. So that's how we connected and we bound it. on that. So I met my wife. So I'm married. I have a daughter. And we live here in Wisconsin,

in Madison, Wisconsin. And so what do you hope people understand about when immigrants come to America? We're going through some interesting times here in 2035 recording this thing. And, you know, for my great-grandfather came to America from Germany. I'm an immigrant, too, technically. grand son of an immigrant. And when he came here, he spoke pure German in the 1800s. Yep. He was invited by the Utah Mormons, unfortunately. And, but he stepped off the Union Pacific train in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Didn't speak a leak of English. And thankfully, people were kind enough to take them in. And, you know, these are the people who helped build this country and make it. What are your thoughts on, you know, why it's important to have immigrants, coming to America and being part of this melting pot. Yeah, Chris, thank you for asking that question because I wanted to actually talk about that because the book is so relevant on our current political environment right now because, you know, like as we know, like when people come to this country,

I'm just going to throw a top provoking out there, you know? So when people come to this country, sometimes they say they don't work a lot or they don't do these things or they don't do that thing. But one of the things, the reason why I also wrote the book is to actually help migrants see that. It's actually possible to achieve whatever you would like to do in this country. It is absolutely possible. Me coming from a different background, a very challenging childhood experience where I was experiencing abuse and trauma and all that and coming to America and being, and without even speaking any English at all, and being able to achieve my dream and my goals, it's absolutely possible. And I want people also to understand that, and I want people also to understand that. And I want people also to understand that empathy is important.

Yeah. You know, like, you have to understand someone's perspective without judgment. And for me, I had to master that to survive. You know, people carry more than you can see. And they have been burned, silence, and told that they are not enough already. but you know you can only understand that when you have experienced pain yourself you know because then you become so you become soft because you have been exposed to sharpness for too long so you feel empathy in your heart when someone when you see someone struggling and people

will come to this country they were already struggling and they come in here for whole for a better life, you know? So, and I would really challenge people to understand, you know, their perspective without any judgment at all. And if you are an immigrant and you're listening to this show, I want you also to understand that. No hills are too high to climb if you have the determination to pursue your goals. That's what I want you to understand. And I would add onto that, because I said I'm going to throw a thought provocative thought out there for people to grasp with. So I would like to ask people, if you think that, because I came to America through the diversity lottery, and it opens up doors for me, and I use that opportunity to become a U.S. citizen and to work and to contribute to the economy of this country.

So I would like to ask people out there, do you think that the U.S. diversity lottery is something that Congress should continue to do, continue to do? Or do you think that the U.S. diversity lottery is something that Congress should not do? But I would also challenge you before read my book and understand and let me know. Yeah. Yeah, and they should have empathy for your journey. You know, there are so many people that have come to America that have changed it in so many ways. And many of them are small and minute, but, you know, it's a rising tide that lifts all boats.

You know, you look at Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs was a child of an immigrant who came here from Syria. Jesus, if we'd never let Steve Jobs in the country, can you imagine what this world will be like? You know, an iPhone had never been invented, a lot of the media, social media, all the great things that came. came out of kind of the democratization of that data, you know, may never have come to light, or at least not in the format that made it as successful as it did. I mean, it spawned so many industries and businesses and stuff.

I can't imagine what this world would be like without it. We'd probably still be, I don't know, typing on Blackberries, I suppose. Absolutely agree with you. Absolutely agree with you. And it made this country good. And immigrants work probably far harder. two or three times, maybe more than any normal American. We take, as Americans born here, we take a lot of this country for granted and its values

for granted. And it seems like until we lose it, we're not going to really value it. But when immigrants come here, you know, they have a dream. And they're coming from a place that is so awful, you know, and they don't want to bring that here. They want to, they want to bask in being an American. Yeah. And, you know, studies show that America.

America assimilates immigrants better than any other country. Like in France, they really have trouble. In other countries, they have trouble. People come here because they want to live the American dream. They don't want to live the Guinea dream. Nope. The American dream. You know, they want, I don't know, they want baseball and McDonald's, I guess, or something.

Pick your thing. So how did things work out with your family in Guinea? Did they maybe eventually come here? Are they still there? How was it like being estranged from them? They're still there. Most of them are still there. So we just talk and communicate sometimes, not all the time when I'm free.

Over the weekend, sometimes I just check in and see how everybody is doing. But I do make trips back home sometimes just to kind of like go and check, check, you know, check on people and talk to people and reconnect with people, especially my friends and my grandmother. Yeah. Things are going great despite everything that they put me through. But I also say thank you because I am the man. I am who I am today because of the life experiences that I've gotten along the way. Yeah. I mean, these are the things that drive you. These things that motivate you. These are the things, you know, we are all our stories of our life and our trials and tribulations are the fabric of our life. They're the stories. I mean, we all kind of go through things that shape us throughout life. But you kind of, sometimes you look at your life and you go, God, what would I be without some of those trials and tribulations? Where would I be? And maybe you wouldn't be the same person. Maybe be in a worse place. You know, you never know. and there's and so there's you know sometimes you just have to go that's my story and I'm sticking to it and of course beautifully you wrote a book about it was it good to see I mean I don't know if your mother got to see your success and and your family got to see your success and go hey made it all right good job my mother she did and did see my success yes she did and my family they're super proud they're very proud

But they won't be so thrilled that I actually wrote the book, you know, because the thing that they put me through is seen as normal in our culture. It's normal that you're supposed to do those things in order for you to get benedictions from your elders. So that's the thing. And then when I wrote this book, I actually broke the silence. Because in my family's silence is survival. But I had to break that silence for me and for any other children in the world that is experiencing child abuse and being silence in general. And I also have to break the silence for many immigrants that are coming to this country and to show them the power of. self-transformation that you can you can achieve anything that you that you will like to do in

America you can't absolutely and yeah what a great story man what a great story and you know it's I'm not a big fan of what's going on right now in 2025 I don't think a lot of Americans are I think I think we're seeing the abuse of the system and you know it's it's really sad that People use immigrants and immigration as, and this has been going on for zillions of years, a year's a time in humanity where, you know, politicians will always blame the, it's that other person, the immigrant, it's the minority, it's that, that other person who's taking your jobs that, of course, Americans don't want to do, which is ironic. And, you know, even what's interesting to me is, I've, you know, I've talked to this,

I've had guests on the show that came from Mexico. and they have this closed-door mentality. They close the door behind the mentality, they call it. And so they'll come to America and find success, but then they become American, and they're like, yeah, we shouldn't have immigrants come here anymore. I know I did, but, you know, they're still coming and stealing our jobs, and you're like, the jobs you guys don't want to do and the work you don't want to tell.

Come on, man. Yeah. And when you really study population, I mean, years and years ago, we had a gentleman on the show. He wrote a book about how America needs to kind of compete better with China by getting one billion people in it. You know, that's what made America great was the melting pot. And you've noticed since we've kind of curtailed that melting pot, and America is not doing too well. And yet still, you know, politicians are taking advantage of turning, you know, immigrants. of the straw men.

Yeah. And it's sad. It frustrates me because this is the oldest politician trick known to man. I mean, it's been going back towards Greece and Socrates and really steps a man. You think that by now, human beings would be like, ah, we see what you're doing there, Mr. politician. See what you're up to. Yeah, your little tricky dick doesn't work over here.

And there were probably times where that wasn't true. But anyway. Yeah. I do have a follow-up comment on that, Chris, what you just mentioned, if you're allowed me. Please do. So, looking at my story, my life story, right? Like how I came to America, how I got the diversity lottery, opened up the doors, and I came to America with only $100 and zero English at all.

Zero English. Like, you and I would not be talking right now back in 2013, and it's not even that long ago, right? 2013, you and I would not have that conversation at all. And the fact that I started from nothing, I came to this country with nothing, started from nothing, and worked my way all the way to now working for one of the top architectural companies in the U.S. you know so and then for somebody who is a native born citizen in america already speaks the language for you to say that me who came from a whole different background whole different country with zero english come to this country and work to achieve things in my life and then you are here born and raised and went to school here, no or the language. And for you to say that I'm

stealing your job, I don't think that's fair to say. Because we all have the power. You are the architect of your own life. You made the decision. You are Congress of your own life. You are responsible for deciding the policies in your life, where you want your life to be, and what you would like to do in your life. So, you know, so it's not fair for you to sit down and just say that, oh, this person and that person is stealing my job, when that person finds you here, you already had an advantage, which you speak the language, you're born here, you went to school here, you know all, you know the system, and that person really had to redefine their identity. They had to redefine, find a way, who I'm, like, who do I want to be in this country? you know so that alone people should understand that i think most definitely you know and you have to think from an abundance mindset that when people come here they're going to contribute

lift yeah you you you can't think of scarcity because if you think of scarcity everything shrinks and fails um and that's what this country is built on was abundance is like hey there's i mean there's so much land here that's still undeveloped uh there's so much opportunity you know and this is and that's what america was always sold was the land of opportunities yes you could come here you could make something you can contribute you could donate and everything else but uh you know like i said uh with the politicians uh it's really time we see through the evilness of their nature uh and no i'm not throwing all politicians on the bus because we have some good guys on the show but uh you know anytime one of those politicians is

pulling those trick bags where they're like, oh, that other person is the problem. It's not, you know, in 99% of time, it's politicians and the laws they pass that are causing the problems we're having. So, so Amadu, as we go out, tell people where they can pick up your book, where they can get to know you better on your dot-coms, etc., etc. Climbing the Hill, the book is available everywhere. It's available on Amazon. It's available at Barnes and Nobles, even at Walmart. and it's also available at bookshops.org.

And if you are out there and chasing a better version of yourself, I'm right there with you. You can find me on my social media account on Instagram, climbing underscore the hill. Or you can shoot me an email on my website, amadoucamara atter.com. But I don't know if they know how to spell Amadou Kamara though. there'll be a link on the Chris Vos show. Oh, okay, thank you. It's spelled A-M-A-D-O-U, Kamara, C-A-M-A-R-A.

Yeah. So there'll be a link on the Chris Foss show. You can link to that, and, of course, check out his book, Climbing the Hill on July 18, 2025. Thank you very much for being on the show with us. We really appreciate it. No problem.

Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it, too. Thank you. And thanks for us for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, Fortess, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com for Chess Chris Foss. Chris Foss won the TikTokity and all those crazy places in the internet.

Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time. Thank you.