The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – CONEtrolled: How we’ve lost our freedom and how to reclaim it by Nava Israel Ph.D.

Episode Date: August 31, 2024

CONEtrolled: How we've lost our freedom and how to reclaim it by Nava Israel Ph.D. https://amzn.to/4cMVFbN How is space travel like communism, science like religion, sports like cosmetics, and organized crime like medicine? These and almost all other areas in our lives operate in a remarkably similar manner that doesn’t do us any favours. The Cone Model developed by Dr. Nava Israel describes a recurring pattern in which we start with well-meaning solutions to address our needs and end up with dogmatic systems that rob us of our freedoms and worsen our problems. This book will take you on a journey to uncover the inner workings of the systems that oppress and control you under the guise of wisdom, necessity, kindness, greatness, unity, or progress. It will explore hidden truths you were taught to ridicule or ignore to keep you compliant, and help you rediscover your power and ability to build a better future as an individual, a member of your human tribe, and an integral element of this planet. About the author Nava Israel is a lifelong innovator, entrepreneur, author, researcher, facilitator, speaker, educator, a business and academic consultant, and a social and cultural innovator with a PhD in epidemiology. Beyond formal titles, she is a philosopher at heart with an insatiable curiosity for all forms of science, critical thinking, human behaviour, patterns, social justice, true and deep healing, our place in the universe, and the intersections of all the above.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. Chris Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com.

There you go, ladies and gentlemen. Look at the big show. We certainly appreciate you guys coming by. As always, the Christmas show is a family that loves you but doesn't judge you, at least not as harshly as your family does. We don't loan you money either, so remember that as well. Today we have an amazing young lady on the show. Today we're going to be talking about her books and everything that goes into them and

all that good stuff. We have Dr. Nava Israel, PhD, on the show with us today. Her new book was out june 8th 2024 it's called cone trolled how we lost our freedom and how to reclaim it she'll be talking to us about that on the book and her website and some of the other stuff she does she is an author lifelong innovator a professional speaker and educator, a business academic consultant, a trainer, a healer, and a social and cultural disruptor with a PhD in epidemiology. She's been a thought leader and philosopher at heart, and she has an insatiable curiosity for all forms of science, critical thinking, human behaviors, patterns, social justice,

our place in the universe, and the intersections of all of the above. Welcome to the show. Nava, how are you? Thank you so much, Chris. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. I am doing just fine. Thank you for coming.

Give us your.coms or your.cas, wherever people can find you on the interwebs. So it's.ca. I'm a Canadian. And they can find me on my website. That's navainc.ca or find me on LinkedIn under Nava Israel. And I would love for people to find me and connect with me. There you go.

So your new book, Cone Trolled, C-O-N-E, so like a traffic cone sort of thing, I believe that's on the cover of the screen. Tell us 30,000 overview of what this book is about. So this book is about a pattern that I have revealed and noticed and developed a model based on that, but I called cone model, therefore the cone trolled. And it is a pattern that we all live in. We all viscerally, we know it, we recognize it, but most of us aren't aware of it. A cone is not a good thing. Okay, let's start with that. A cone

is something very oppressive. It is something that controls us, silences us, brainwashes us, tells us what to think and what not to think, what to ask and what not to ask, how to behave, and what kind of behaviors are punishable. And we see these in others. We don't see them in ourselves, these cones. I'll give you an example. So think about a cult okay you are outside of the cult you can tell this is an oppressive cone this is a construct that holds its people inside tells them what to think there's a leader who is like this demigod, and everyone worships that leader.

They do what the leader says. They are not exposed to external information. They disconnect themselves from family and from anyone who's outside of their cult. People inside the cult don't know that they are inside of a cone. Most people, the vast majority, don't know that they are inside of a cone. Most people, the vast majority don't know. For them, this is reality. So some people who were born in these cults, that's the only reality they know.

That's what they call the normal. And people who were recruited into the cone were recruited based on manipulation that pulled them into these false promises of unity and meaning and beauty and divinity or whatever, whatever attracted them. A family, right? We are a family. We are one. So people who were disenfranchised, people who were abused with unresolved trauma, they are seeking that parent loving unconditional figure that will give them meaning. Once they are in the cult, there is this whole process of mind manipulation and mind control, where they learn to identify with the cult unreservedly,

where they learn that only those people inside the cult are worthy and superior, whereas everyone outside are not only unworthy and inferior, but most times they are considered inhuman. And therefore, they can be harmed, they can be shunned, and what have you. So this is an extreme example of a cone structure, where there is control at the top that contains the followers or what I call in the cone model, the subjects. They contain the subjects and controls them both physically and emotionally, mentally, intellectually. So I'm thinking, Chris, I'm not in a cult. What do I have to do with cones, right? You think you have any cones in your life?

Probably a lot of cones, right? You think you have any cones in your life? Probably a lot of cones, actually. I probably have a whole traffic sequence in my thing. For sure. That's a good one. And you know what? We all do. We all do. And the problem is that most of the cones in our lives are invisible to us in the same way that the cult cone is invisible to those inside the cult. Now, the trick with a cone is that a cone is made invisible through very intentional manipulation. And this intentional manipulation has us believe, again, just like the cult members, that this is reality. And this is the only reality. And that this is human nature. And that's how we are.

Right? But these are usually lies that are told to us to control us, to exploit us, to exploit the earth, to make us the means to someone's goals. I'll give you an example. There are tons and tons of them. So let's take a small example, a relationship. People in an abusive relationship seldom know that they are in an abusive relationship, especially in a relationship with a narcissist that controls their minds, you know, tricks the person, their victim to believe that every problem is their fault, that they should be thankful for having this wonderful partner, etc. So this kind of a relationship, people outside of the relationship who witness this abuse can tell the victim,

listen, this is not okay. This is a harmful relationship. But the person in this relationship, unless they have awoken, they will defend their abuser to the death. They will say, what are you talking about? I am fortunate to have this partner. You know, they are everything to me. I'm nothing without them. It is a call that unfortunately is more common than we think, because based on research in psychology, about one in every six people, you know, has some level of narcissistic traits. So this is not a rare thing,

but it is very rare for people inside of this relationship to realize that they are inside of the cone. So this is one example. Definitely. We used to call this inside the box, where we'd have a little thing we'd do back in the day. But it's a thing. I like the cone concept because, you know, people contain, I grew up in a Mormon cult, and so I'm pretty familiar with what cultism is

and all the different features of it. And I've always studied why people believe stuff that they do. And you're exactly right. I mean, whether it's a political cult, whether it's a religious cult, whether it's a belief system about just about anything, we kind of have these roped off or coned off roles and experiences in what we do. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you grew up. What motivated you to get into the field that you're in right now? And what motivated you to finally write the book?

Sure. So I was born in what is now Ukraine. But when I was born there, it was the Soviet Union. So talking about the cone and this oppressive regime was one big example of what a cone looks like outside and inside. Now, you know, when I was in kindergarten, I was taught there was this big picture of Lenin on the wall and the picture he was sitting at the desk writing. And our teacher would say, look at Lenin, children, see how he studies day and night. He never leaves his desk. And in my four-year-old mind, I was like, okay, that's really stupid. This is a painting.

Obviously, he isn't getting up. This is a painting. So I think that from a very young age, I had some form of immunity, I would say sort of a mental immunity to this kind of rhetoric of a cone rhetoric that that might controls your mind. I'm not saying by any means that I am not under the spell of some cones that I'm not even aware of still. I'm a work in progress. But I think that I've always seen through these systems and I never understood them. And I never understood why other people aren't seeing, why other children saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we should be like this. Okay, that's ridiculous. But as I grew up and we moved, my family and I, we moved when I was around seven, eight, we moved to Israel, a very different culture, a very different environment of survival,

very nationalistic, right? Because it's a survival environment, you become very loyal to your nation. And then I was taught at school, at lower grade, that you always have to be loyal to your motherland and that other people are there to kill you. Sadly, partially, that's true. But at that age as well, I was like, why do we even need borders? Why do we need that?

Why do we divide land to us and them and the other them? Why can't we be citizens of the world? Why can't we all just get along? Yes. Yeah, very basic. And everyone would say, okay, that's ridiculous, child. We are us, and they are them, and we have to be within our borders, and they are in their borders.

And so as I grew up, I started being obsessed, I would say, with searching patterns that would make sense, that would explain these weird behaviors of human beings, of division, of animosity, of injustice, of racism, misogyny, all of these things that made no sense to me, I needed to understand them and I needed to work to do something about that. So as I grew, I collected these thousands of pieces of information around me. And I went into, I became a clinical dietician. I served in the military, as all Israelis are, so I've learned about another dogmatic structure, how it works. And then I became a clinical dietician because I had this desire to heal, heal people, heal the world. And then I went and did my PhD in epidemiology. Now, for those who aren't, you know, if you don't know exactly what

epidemiology is, most of us have heard this name with the COVID. Epidemiologists say there's that no connection to COVID for me. This is basically statistics. It is statistics where you find patterns. What is connected with what what can explain what you know you have something that i have pattern recognition and early on i knew that the cult i was raised in was bullshit at three or four years old i knew it was bullshit because the pattern recognition that i was seeing there i think there's certain people that can see patterns like you and I and there's a lot of people who can't yeah and you know maybe they're stuck in the cone like you say but it's always been interesting to me how I could see stuff you know I'd ask I'd ask questions and

I get yelled at because they would be like you have to have faith and I'm like I'm not gonna have faith if you can't prove it you know prove this and they're just like you're you're doing it wrong you know they guilt and shamed and did all the things that cults do and you know if they can't get their way that way then they ostracize you from the cult and of course since the cult is the only thing you know you you it it ends up being a weapon that they can use against you and uh which you know cults do you know if you if you don't if you don't walk the walk and and talk the talk they'll throw you out and of course they use that as a as a weapon but you know it's it's interesting to me because i've

always asked myself how come i can see the patterns and other people can't like how can i how come i can see things that and maybe that's what your book really helps people do is see what pattern recognition is but it does seem there's certain people like you and i that i would theorize are pretty unique in where we see patterns and other people don't is there any truth truth to that? There is definitely truth to that. There's also a lot of research on that, and it's called emotional immunity, as I said before. And it is that immunity that you have innately where you don't take things for granted, where you need to understand before you accept something.

There is such a thing. There is such a thing. And it is not very common, as you're saying. And that's why most people are taken or given to cones unquestioning, whereas the shit-steers, pardon me, like us, ask the difficult questions and say, show me, prove to me, make sense to me. And then the calm masters, as I call them in my model, the manipulators, the exploiters, they create a culture within the calm of shaming and silencing and censorship. And, you know, nowadays, the most easy way to discredit you is to call you a conspiracy theorist. Right. It's that magic word that turns you into an idiot.

Even though you have completely valid facts and questions. Or traitor. Think about truth tellers and whistle blowers. Think about those who are in jail for blowing the whistle on something completely illegitimate of their government. With proof and evidence. And they are in jail for being truth tellers so it's not easy being the pattern recognizer it's not easy being the one with the emotional immunity because it can be frustrating at least or dangerous at most yeah i mean there was was it aristotle or whoever you know there's

people that spoke the truth about certain things and were called heretics and put to death. Yeah. Because they recognized pattern recognition. You know, I just did. I would find flaws in the system and be like, how come Jesus over here and the devil over here and, you know, this poor Judas guy got caught in the middle of all this bullshit. How come he got stuck with that deal? And, you know, because they would tell me, you know you know when you come to earth you have free will and choice but god knows what you're going to do and so god knew judas was going to betray jesus and you're

like that seems kind of like uh sending a guy to the gallows for something that it's like a minority report sort of thing going on and and they're like no no no it's just this way god knows what you're gonna do then why did he send us here so he could see what you'll do and you're like wait he knows what we're gonna do but he sent us here to see what we're gonna do this makes no fucking sense you know and so i have a question all those little different points and aspects and you know then i'd be told to shut up and just have faith and just do what you're told. And I'm not good at that either. But it's kind of interesting because that sort of pattern recognition has been a, and you just, I just actually learned something new today. Boys and girls, we learned something new today called emotional competence and intelligence.

How is it that I had this at a young age? I mean, at three years old I remember thinking this is bullshit this cult how is it that I developed that at three and four years old I was just born with it because I I've had it and it shaped my whole life a lot of people just go okay I'll get married have kids and then they wake up one day in a midlife crisis going I guess I chose something I didn't really think about choosing. And me, I've just always been through my life being like, no, I'm not going to choose that if it sounds like a garbage way to go.

No. And I've been that way through all my choices in life. And so I guess I'm just weird or born wrong because nothing in my life could have shaped me at that youth other than just, I don't know, people throwing things at me like religion. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you, Chris.

Yeah. I've had that as well. So, we're just born that way? We are born with stronger drive for this truth and seeing through manipulation. And others are sort of in the middle. And if they are in a very oppressive system, they are shut down and they just learn to shut their mouth, basically. Even when they see, they continue seeing. Once you see it, you can't unsee it, really.

But some, so think about in a cult, right? But you were a man in a cult. What if you were a woman in the cult, right? How much power do women have to speak up and be criticized? Like women in many cultures, not just cults, are voiceless, right? They are voiceless not because they have no voice, but because their voice is forbidden and taken away. I mean, there is a difference of human behavior there. So men were designed to be disagreeable.

It's a feature, not a bug. Women are designed to be communal. So they're designed to get along rather than be disagreeable and so there's kind of that human nature ploy into it it's not so much that their voice is taken away they have their voice they can speak up i mean there's been there's certainly been people in this world that have done that that are whether they're repressed over their race or whether they're repressed over their sex, right? I mean, that's what women did during voting for, I forget the term they used for it,

but when they wanted to vote. The suffrage. Yeah, they stood up and they went to having a Monday issue, but they could go form groups and picket. True, but what did it cost them? I'll give you a very simple versus men. Men never had to fight for their right to vote. So women have to fight for their human rights. We did actually have to fight for our right to vote.

Yeah, it's been, I don't know if you've read the Magna Carta or other things, but we had to fight and die for our right to vote. Yeah, it's been, I don't know if you've read the Magna Carta or other things, but we had to fight and die for our right to vote. Oh, I know. In fact, men cut that rug for women. Men only fought for men's right to vote, not for women's right. So even in the Magna Carta. So what I'm saying, again, I'm not accusing. Please don't take it personally.

This is not me, a woman, against you, a man. Not at all. This is about realities that a lot of men actually don't see because they don't experience it. In the same way that we white people don't have the experience of black people, and so we don't understand the privileges that our color gives us. In the same way, men don't understand the privileges that they have versus a woman. I'll give you an example.

So as a very assertive woman that never, you know, thought twice before speaking her mind myself, I've been called aggressive, a bulldozer, you know, everything that I did was for justice and for peace and for inclusivity. And yet, in many ways, I've been considered a bitch, problem maker, you know, whereas the exact same behavior of a man would have deemed that man titles of a leader, a go-getter, you know, a doer, you know, all these wonderful titles that exact same behavior in a woman are denigrating women, right? And that's why I mean that women don't necessarily have a voice, not because they don't have a voice,

but because this voice costs them so much more repercussions than it does to men. Do you normally get those accusations from other women or from men? Usually from men, but I will tell you that a lot of women who grow up in very patriarchal societies and sadly most of our societies are patriarchal to one level or another learn to play the man game right and so many women sadly oppress other women and silence other women because that is how they get power. But I am seeing, I am now almost 60. So I have six decades of experiences and wisdom behind me. And I have seen the change and I am delighted because I have seen the change happening in societies. We keep saying this is the worst time ever. Now we are deteriorating. This is the end. This is the

worst time in humanity. That is not true. That is not true. We have moved forward leaps and bounds, not just in technology, but in society. And sure, we have so much still to do, to fix. But I have seen these changes of women starting to go back to their communal supporting handholding instead of becoming predatory to move forward. I have seen men waking up to their own inner manliness that is not toxic, right? Where they can be themselves and experience emotions and be communal as well without being shamed. I have seen racism going down a little bit, still a lot to go.

I have seen indigenous communities gaining more voice than they had previously. So there is beauty happening, but the cones are painting everything dark for us for a reason, because we need to be scared to be controlled that's true that's true fear is definitely a controlling factor in there so as you as you in your book how do you help people identify if they're in a cone if they're in a cone thinking maybe And how do they recognize the patterns and how do they get out of the cone? Yeah. So, the book actually answers all of these questions that you just said. As you go through the book and you read how these cones are built, you start asking yourself these questions. Oh, wait, this looks familiar to me. These phrases, these behaviors, they look

familiar to me, they feel familiar. So as you go through the book, there is this visceral, I would say, recognition that actually what you consider to be reality and human nature is nothing more than someone told you this is reality and human nature and there are other better ways so as you go through the book you reveal more and more layers of this cone and you see these behaviors and you start asking the questions for yourself then towards the end like the last third of the book i would first of all, you have a tool that I've put in the book. And if you can't, you don't read these kinds of books, you can go on my website. My website is www.nav C-A, as in Canada.

And on my website, you can download a free self-diagnostic tool where you can answer these questions, and it will give you the measure of how vulnerable you are to manipulation. And this is a tool that's based on my model. It's a new tool. And again, it's not a scientifically validated tool, but that doesn't matter because the questions are real questions. And the higher the score, the more you are vulnerable to manipulative ploys. And then at the end, I speak about how we can stop recreating these cones because that's one of the problems

is that we topple one cone and then we build the next one and the next one. They reincarnate these bastards. Yeah. So are we always making cones? I mean, that's, I think,

I think there's something called the reticulating activating system or different things that we utilize to, to wall off knowledge like that, or to build a consensus to, to show that our belief systems are correct, that we believe, but usually that's just, you know,

that's propaganda for, for just supporting whatever sort's just you know that's propaganda for for just supporting whatever sort of you know dunning kruger sort of thing we've decided to believe in is that correct yeah so first of all this is the world that we know so intuitively we build with the tools that we have. And that's a challenge. But there's another reason for why we keep rebuilding and rebuilding these cones. When we live inside an oppressive system, so let's say capitalism. Yeah, okay. Let's call capitalism an oppressive system.

Communism. Doesn't matter which one you pick. And most live thinking this is the best way because we were taught this is your freedom. So what if only 1% really benefits and all the rest are exploited for that benefit? Forget it. Don't listen to it. Let us show you a football game. That'll be fun. So there is that dynamics of most of us don't know.

But then more and more people awaken. Like Gen Z, they are an awakened generation. And I applaud them with all the problems that they have with themselves. That's okay. They will figure it out. But I have great hopes for them. But they themselves, that's okay. They will figure it out. But I have great hopes for them. But they say, this is bullshit. We don't want that. And then more and more people awaken to that bullshit. But here's the problem. And you can already see it in the Gen Z. It's the anger and the vengeance. It's the burn the rich, bring the

guillotine, right? It's that anger against an oppressive system, which is not misplaced. It's a rightful anger, just like an anger against racism is legitimate anger. But when all you have is that anger and you don't work through it into some kind of peace of mind and you leave that or you burn that cone, that old cone, and you leave it and you start something new, you start that something new in a tainted mindset from anger, where you say everything there was shit, everything there was wrong, everything that I have nothing to learn from them. You know, not a single bit I'm going to take with me. I have so much better. And if you say something that supports that old saying, I'm going to punish you. Oh, oh, there's a cone for you, right? Woke. Being woke is wonderful.

It is wonderful. The concept is wonderful. You want people to be awakened from these cones. That's the woke thing. But look what happened with this woke movement. It became oppressive and punitive. Oh, you said that word? I'm going to cancel you.

Cancel culture, yeah. It became the new calm. Yeah. And it happens again and again and again when we bring our unresolved trauma, our unresolved anger into the new system, and we become vindictive, and we become single-minded and tunnel vision, and that's what builds the next comb. So here's the solution. When you leave that, first of all, trying to change a cone from the inside,

waste of time. These are not broken systems. These are systems that operate exactly as intended. Think about an abuser. Can you change an abuser in a relationship? Can you tell them, I disagree with you, you narcissist, change for me. Yeah, good luck with that. There's no changing someone who benefits from your pain, from your labor, from your whatever, right? From controlling you. Trying to change it from the inside is a waste of energy and time. You do need to raise your voice against them so that more and more people wake up and leave. But the only solution is to build something better.

And the only way to build something better that is not a cone is to heal. It is to heal your wounds. It is to let go of your anger. Not as in, I'm not angry. It's not toxic positivity. It's real healing. You have anger, go through it. Live with it. Be in it.

Process it and then heal from it. Just like grieving. Most definitely, yeah. Like grieving. Most definitely, yeah. Like grieving, you have eventually, you need to let the grieving go and you need to start moving forward as a healed human being.

And only that way can you build something that's not judgmental, that's not oppressive, that's not punitive, that's not black and white, wrong and right, that has nuance, that has flexibility, that is inclusive and not exclusive. That is the only way. There you go. There you go. So as we go out, give people a final pitch to order up your book

and what dot coms that they can do also tell us what you offer at your website is there coaching there is there stuff people can onboard with you there yeah so what i offer on my website is that free tool that you can download i offer services that are not individual coaching but i offer services to. I've developed a tool that's called the organizational cone diagnostic. And what I do is I go into organizations that are looking to be better, that are looking to be more sustainable, more inclusive, more healthier. And I help them with a two-day process of deep digging into core issues not not you know not band-aid solutions or you know to really find what doesn't work well what are and it's all about organizational culture so I'm not going into their profits.

I don't care about the profits. Because the profits are just the outcomes of what happens in the organizational culture. And so I help organizations figure out what are the pitfalls in their organizational culture, the deep root causes, and then they can start rebuilding, rethinking, improving, getting out of that cone, right? So, and that's why it's a cone diagnostic. So, it's a diagnostic that measures how cone-ish they are. Because a cone in an organization is cancer.

It's cancer. Yeah, definitely. And so, how do you know that you're not building a new cone that's just going to be a new problem i mean how do you know that this is the the one and only true cone i guess sort of thing or not cone yeah you know you know it based on your vision and the way that you do things. As I said, flexibility, openness, nuance, inclusivity. So long as you're not

harsh, judgmental, punitive, and my way or the highway, you can build beautiful systems. And here's the thing. Most of us think people who grew, people who grew up in cones and most of us are, okay, this is imaginary. This is utopian. Okay, great.

You hippie. You know, that doesn't really happen in real life. But that's not true. There is so much out there that works beautifully. There are so many organizations and communities that live peacefully with inclusion and not just with humanity, but with the earth as well. It can affect everything, the way we treat each other and the way we treat our earth. The reason that most of us don't know anything about these communities and organizations is because our media, our mainstream media, is the tool of cones. And so it excludes news and information about these alternative ways of being, living, working, and coexisting, because it doesn't

serve the narrative of the corporatocracy, of the corporates that govern the world. And so we don't hear about them in mainstream media, but they're not hidden. So if you go and dig and look, you will find tons and tons of beautiful communities beautiful organizations that contribute to humanity that are not cones that are not punitive and exclusionary etc so it exists oh there you go there you, you know, it seems like a pattern of human behavior is to take and eventually make things punitive. Like, it always starts out nice. Like, we saw that with DEI, where diversity, equity, and inclusion was this great thing, came out of wokeism. You know, now we see wokeism has turned it's gone so far left it's almost turned right

where you know it's it's pro hamas you see di di reach this point of insanity called micro aggressions and just being punitive people for microaggressions you're like seriously i mean how how much do i need to be afraid of my own shadow? You know, they always start this way, but it seems like they always end with, you know, the punitive part. Is that a correct assessment or am I wrong there? That is a correct assessment in the sense that that's how cones reincarnate. But that's exactly how it is. I mean, think about something like communism. And I know that at least in the US, it's like that four letter word, even though it's not four

letters, but you know, like, the ultimate insult to someone is to call them a commie. But really, if you think about it, communism came from a beautiful concept of anti-monarchy anti-exploitation of workers and it socialism is a beautiful ideology of we are all one and we we need to be together and support each other we are all equal you know all of these beautiful concepts but then it was hijacked by exploiters it was hijacked by people who were hungry for power and there came communism where equality is just a dress-up there was no equality i assure you in russia every yeah everyone was equal but like at the lowest denomination, everyone was as poor as the next guy with only the elite having means, which is, if you think about it, not very different from what's happening now in predatory capitalism. Only in predatory capitalism, everyone is made to believe that this is a free market and this is freedom and blah, blah, blah.

So the building of cones is something that is in our history, but it doesn't mean that it's in our nature. It is in our nature because, again, we grow up from cones. We bring these same patterns, bad patterns, that anger, and we build the next one. But think about a lot of the indigenous communities. For thousands of years, they existed in matriarchal systems where everyone were treated equally, where everyone was cared for, where the leader, the chief was a service leader, where their job was to make sure that everyone is okay, not to have power. power right and so these things existed and it is also in our nature everything is in our nature the good and the bad and it's what we choose to nurture and it is what we choose to do because we do have free choice we just need to choose the right thing and not say well it's a dog eat dog world i'll just be the top dog that's the only way of being there you go there you go it's a dog eat dog world. I'll just be the top dog. That's the only way

of being. There you go. There you go. It's been insightful, Nava, to have you on the show. We really appreciate it. Thank you for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. And give us your dot coms as we go out so people can look you up on the internet and reach out and work with you. Yep, absolutely.

So it's Nava Inc. N-A-V-A-i-n-c dot c-a dot com. There you go. Canadian! We love our Canadian friends. I'm a big Rush fan and I'm a big Trailer Park Boys fan. I love Trailer Park. I love

all things Canadian. You guys make some of the best comedy up there from Second City and a lot of great musicians. Not all great musicians. You can make some of the best comedy up there from Second City and a lot of great musicians. Not all great musicians. You can have Justin Bieber back, but... Okay. Okay, thanks. For some reason, you guys never want him back. What's that about?

I don't mind. I don't mind. Nickelback. No, I like Nickelback. Anyway, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Fossoss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Voss. Chris Voss won the TikTok and all those crazy places on the internet. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other.

Stay safe. We'll see you next time. And that should have us out. Great show. Wonderful discussion.