The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Convergence by Jonathan Dixon, Gregg Owen

Episode Date: March 29, 2026

Convergence by Jonathan Dixon, Gregg Owen https://www.amazon.com/Convergence-Jonathan-Dixon/dp/B0FLVRM325 This story seems impossible. But every word is true. Convergence is the account of a vicious double homicide in 1970s Chicago and a trial that almost didn’t happen. This is a different kind of true crime book.It isn’t a mystery, because the killer was arrested right away. It’s not a police story, although Convergence is there at every step of their investigation. It’s not a defense lawyer’s story. This is a story from the other side of the courtroom. Convergence is the story of Gio Messina and Delphine Moore’s murders and the trial that followed, but this time told from the perspective of the prosecution. You are there to witness how a case is built, how it’s brought to court, and how it unfolds when the trial starts. You see what happens when power and money try and keep the trial from starting at all. You follow the prosecution from the courtrooms of Chicago to rural Tennessee looking for new evidence to replace the evidence that’s vanished. You’re introduced to the choreography of the courtroom: listening in on the careful strategizing, understanding the thought behind what a jury hears, and getting a close view of what’s involved in how it’s presented. Most importantly, you’re introduced to Mike Goggin and Gregg Owen, the two prosecutors who fought to have the case heard. Goggin and Owen had set a record for convictions that still stands. They refused to let the Messina and Moore murders break it. Convergence is a historical snapshot of a time when Chicago was changing, and a timeless picture of how justice is sought and found.

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reflect the opinions of the host or the Chris Foss show. Some guests of the show may be advertising on the podcast, but it's not an endorsement or review of any kind. We have an amazing young man on the show today. he's the author of the book called Convergence out September 17th, 2025 by Jonathan Dixon. And our guest today is Greg Owen, who is also the author on the book. And we're getting into that. Greg Owen, his life has been followed a path that few could have predicted.

He began playing professionally at the age of 15 coming of age during the height of the 1960s and 1970s rock era. As a touring musician, he performed across the United States to clubs, concert halls, eventually joining notable bands including the American breed, whose hit song, Ben Me, Shape Me, something we do around Fridays at night, became an international success song, and not my Friday nights. For years, his life was defined by the road,

concert travel, like performances, the energy of a rising music career. At the same time, he was quite building a second future. While he was continuing to tour, he rolled in law school, because that's what every rock and roller does. I made that up. Structuring his schedule so he could attend classes, and during the acronym here and begin performing for the rest of the time. That dual life lit, continue until a pivotal moment, its final semester.

So we'll get into some of the details, and now he's an attorney and a musician. So let's get into it. Welcome to the show, Greg. How are you? I'm great. I got to tell you one thing, Chris. You bring back to me memories of my youth, Larry Lou Jack, Steve Dahl, Mancow. I mean, you've got all those qualities in one person.

It's amazing. I mean, I'm serious. You really do. All those people dead? That's probably the common law. Larry passed away, yes. I'm sorry, Larry. I love it.

Thank you for the compliment. I certainly appreciate it. It's just mainly the caffeine talking, really. So, Greg, give us your dot-coms. Where do you want people to find you on the interwebs? Let's see. My publishing company, which I started with a couple other people, is 263Books.com.

2S at t h streetbooks.com and the reason is because most of my career I spent at 26th in california in chicago on instagram i'm gregg owen 2 6th greg owen 26th and i just reached 90,000 followers in six months i'm sort of happy about that oh congratulations share the magic i don't take my clothes off i don't tell jokes this sounds like a really boring feed i mean i know and that's that's what I was wondering. I said, why does somebody watch this stuff? There's a lot of attorneys online now, given advice and commenting on, you know, current legal affairs and stuff like that. But, you know, if you really want to go big, sell your feet on OnlyFans. That's what I'm starting next week.

And I'm not with subscribing to that. Let me say this about attorneys. I've seen quite a few, and I can tell they've never really been in a felony trial court in front of jurors. I mean, I mean, there are lawyers, but not many of them actually end up in front of a courtroom. Let me ask you this. Are their feet good looking? You know what? I've never taken the time to really gaze upon their feet as much as maybe I should have. Yeah, maybe maybe, but you know, at least you got your day job. So let's get into this book. Give us a 30,000 over you. What's inside of it?

Sure. The book is called convergence. And there's a reason why we came up with that title because it's a story of how a number of people, their lives and certain events, converged on one date and then one trial. And it starts out with a man who has been looking for his son for two days. His name is Tony Messina. He's a big building contractor in Chicago. This is a true story, by the way. He hasn't heard from his son in two days.

His son, his name is Gio. He's 24 years old. And Tony's concerned because Gio was not like Gio not to call home or not to contact anybody. So we found out that Gio might be in his girlfriend, Tinker's house, in North Shore of Chicago. He drives down there. Nobody's answering any buzzers or anything. He gets the superintendent of the building to let him in.

And when they go in and they find both of them debt and big pools of blood. Murder, you say. Yeah, yeah. And see, what's sort of uncanny about this is this. As that man is finding his son brutally murdered in his son's girlfriend, I'm taking the bar exam. Oh, wow. On the same moment at the same day. Wow.

And four years later, I would prosecute that case. Wow. I was going to say at least you have an alibi. Yeah, I mean, plenty of people around me. But I was taking the exam and at lunchtime we took a break, you know, and I went out to get some lunch at a club owner I knew had a place invited me for lunch. And I heard sirens, a lot of sirens, and lo and behold. But Chris was even more fascinating as this.

I get home from the bar exam. All I'm thinking about is going to L.A. the next day. My band that I had played in had gotten a record deal with Mercury, and they were in the record playing in L.A., which was a real well-known studio. And they were doing an album, and I figured I had two months before I got the bar results, I'm going to go out there and just hang out, you know,

and maybe play on some songs. So that's all I cared about the next morning. So as I get home from the bar exam, I see a newspaper truck delivering in newspapers. And in the box, in the front of the paper box, was a headline, contractor actress found slain. And it interested me, but I had no change in my pocket.

So I go in the house, about an hour later, my brother calls. He tells me his friend was murdered in Chicago today. I go, what friend? He tells me in the name, I don't recognize that he goes, yeah, he was murdered with his girlfriend. And something, I don't know what, struck me. And I go, was your friend a contractor? His dad is, was the girl actress? The boy that got murdered whose father found him that same day was a friend of my brothers.

Oh, wow. What a small world. I mean, yeah, I mean, unbelievable. I didn't know them at all. So I'm off to L.A. and getting the studio, and lo and behold, we're in the studio at the same time as the Eagles. In fact, we're allowed to use the studio when they're not there. Wow. And they were recording Hotel, California. They didn't have a name for it.

A friend of ours had become the road manager. It was a small world. Did you get to hear it all bouncing around when they were working on? We only heard, we never heard the song. We heard some of the, like, the drums and other parts, but not the song finished, no. You guys are like, that's never going to be a single. It's seven minutes, and there's a guitar solo at the end. And they had a goofy name at the time.

It was called Hotel California. Oh, okay. Yeah, but it became that. But I'm just saying, so I wait around for two months. I get the results. I fly back to Chicago, and I'm sworn in as a lawyer and a prosecutor. Wow. Yeah.

You've gone from groupies to lawyers. It didn't change all that much. It was still fun. Let me put it. Why did you want to become a lawyer? Let's establish that. Okay. As a matter of fact.

I grew up in Europe, 60s and 70s, and I had a couple of bands had some records. And we never made a dime. I mean, we signed papers. We didn't know what we were signing. I signed stuff at 17. Nobody, my parents didn't even see it. Wow. So by the time I went through college, I got out of Vietnam because I had a deferment,

kept playing. Once I got finished college, what am I going to do now? I'm going to get drafted. Oh, and behold, the lottery came around. I had a high number, so I didn't have to go. So my friend, the singer, says, why don't you take some law classes? We keep getting screwed by lawyers, you know? I said, are you crazy?

I thought about it for two weeks, and I said, we're still putting together, and the American breed had just broke up, so we're putting together a new band. Maybe I'll see what that's like. So I applied, took a test, and I got in. First day of school, I told the dean, I said, listen, Dean, I'm in a band. I had real long hair. Everybody had short hair, you know, 17. So I said, I want to go every other semester because we tour from June to December,

but we played more locally or, you know, in the winter months. He let me do it. So I went all through school and never stopped playing the band. Wow. And then my last semester, I had a woman who just broke my heart. I mean, it was real tragic. And I was starting to question my own ability. I wasn't a singer, so where's your head?

future. I didn't want to end up in a piano bar and that's what I, you know, so I saw a note in a bulletin board of my school that said the Cook County State's Attorney's Office will be at the law school the next day to interview for law interns. Something inside me very strongly told me I should do that. I mean, it was sort of uncanned. I mean, it was sort of scared me because I heard this. You better do it. You better do it. I called my mother, went home. She got her person to cut heard a couple of hair, took me to J.C. Penny, bought me a suit. The next day I showed up for the interview, that was on a Thursday. The guy says, fine, we need interns. We've got a lot of crime and not enough people, so could you start on Monday? So I show up to this building on Monday. I have

no clue. I'd never even been in the courtroom. And that's how I started. And I walked into this place. It was like I fell out of a space capsule onto a foreign, foreign territory or a foreign planet. because it was the opposite of anything I'd ever seen. I mean, the place was so crowded with people. They were smoking, there was smell of hot dogs and just humid. And the judge was on a bench. They were doing a case and people were yelling and stuff. Nobody said a word.

And I thought to myself, is this what it's all about? Is this what went to law school? Is this where I'm going to end up? And after two weeks, I loved it. I thoroughly, it was like I was on a state. again, you know, I was, I got comfortable with the setting and I wasn't afraid to talk. And I just adapted myself to it and really, really loved it. It is kind of a stage being an attorney. You're up in front of a jury. You've got to, you know,

convince them of, you know, you're telling a good story and, and explaining why maybe your client is innocent or not or should, should be sent to jail, all that stuff. And yeah, I mean, it's kind of like, it's kind of being on stage. And then they decide if they're going to clap for you when they give you their verdict. Yeah. You know, that's true. As a matter of fact, in my recent,

I'd never done social media in my life until six, seven months ago. And I thought, let me come up with things that were true that were interesting. So I have a series called the choreography

of the courtroom. It literally is like a dance. I mean, it's not, no, it's, you don't just walk in and do it if you're good.

I mean, there's places you stand, certain places, at certain moments, you put a witness on the witness stand, you have them look a certain

way, I mean, and one of the things in law, the only thing that's considered art in law is cross-examination. They call it the art of cross-examination. And that really cuts the men from the boys, so to speak. Because as a defense attorney, that's how you make a living. As a prosecutor, you don't get the opportunity quite as much, but I was fortunate. I had a lot of chance to cross-examine, and that really hones your skills in the courtroom. Yeah. Yeah, there's like a whole art to jury selection, right?

Oh, yeah. All this stuff. So tell us about this convergence case. Sure. You flesh it out. It's a real story. I guess you use the real names and everything since this is real. Yep.

Okay. And go ahead. No, so what happened was this? So like I said, I get sworn in. I ended up into felony trial courts. By the time I got, and then I got a call from my brother about three and a half years after that murder took place. And I would already try 40 murder jury trials.

I mean, I was quite experienced after a short period of time. And he said to me, you know, Greg, my brother's name is Jay, he said, Greg, my friend's family is really upset because they say your office is going to drop the charges against this guy that killed their son. I said, that's impossible. It's a double murder. No, no, no. So I looked into it for him. It wasn't at the building that I worked where all murder cases were normally assigned. Then I found out this guy was on bond for four years on a double murder. I mean, who gets the bond on a double murder? On a double murder, yeah. He did, and a low bond. And it all involves. I mean, I was working at probably the highest level of corruption that ever existed in any court system that resulted in the largest investigation and criminal trials of more judges that ever occurred in our country.

It's called Operation Greylord. We were right in the middle of all that. I mean, it was so corrupt. So I find out the case has been assigned to a building that never had a murder case. and been signed to a judge who was very anti-prosecution and a good friend of the defense attorney for this guy. How do they have a judge that's so anti-prosecution? They do, really?

Oh, they do. They're too liberal or woke or something? I mean, it was just at the time, I mean, first of all, a good amount, not every, but a few judges weren't on the up and up, okay? Oh, okay. There was stuff going on here. Hmm. So.

Slide me an envelope sort of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It's like Vegas. There was all, it was so blatant. It was like, but what can we do about it? I mean, you don't physically see them handing the money to a, from a lawyer to something. No, but it was going on.

I mean, we knew it was going on. And so I go over to this other court facility and everybody tells me they're, oh, Greg, don't touch that case. That case is, is doomed. It's got, it's cursed. I go, why are you people crazy? Wow. You know what they said to me. And they said, first of all, they're all a bunch of drug addicts.

I'm like, what's that got to do with anything? Here's me coming from a van for 10 years. I'm not going to really get too hung up. Somebody was doing some of us. I've been doing coke off of toilets and tour buses for... I'm just saying, I mean, I wasn't, that wasn't my mindset that they automatically, who cares? And then they said the only witness, they only had one witness who was present for one of the murders. and he was taking a fifth because it was a cocaine deal that had gone bad, very bad.

Wow. And he was afraid that if he testified and things didn't work out, we'd charge him with these drugs and stuff. So this is four years later now, and he won't even do anything. So I looked at this file. I looked at the guy. He was 24 when he committed to murder, extremely wealthy. I mean, ridiculous wealthy, well-known family and a business executive, so to speak. and these people that he murdered were his friends.

Who murders your friends with a knife, 11-inch butcher knife? If they owe you money, I mean. I mean, that's a pretty rough way to get paid. I mean, that's an extreme. I mean, I'm not saying I've ever done that to my friends, but I do live in Vegas, so. I don't know what that means. But the thing was, nothing, see, when they came upon the crime scene, the police said, is after the father got in, nothing had been taken.

There was cocaine. there, there was $700 cash, there was a real expensive gold watch. Nothing had been taken. There was no same. Sure wasn't OJ? That sounds like an OJ move right. But it was double murder, a woman and a man. So what can I tell you? See, I may have solved your case just now. They were young, though. Yeah. And so the case was solved pretty quickly for a variety of reasons. But what happened, the fact that I saw that file, and it just upset me. Here's this guy, wealthy, And he thinks he's going to walk on a double murder.

You know, he's just going to pay off everybody. And I said, man, not this time. No. So I called my partner, Mike Goggin, and he agreed to take the, do the case with me. We had to transfer back to where it belonged, and we went to trial. Wow. But getting people to testify was almost impossible. Really? Wow.

I mean, no, I mean, no, I mean, it's four years old. Nobody wanted to be involved. I mean, first of all, the family of this kid was, well, well known, powerful. He had some of the finest lawyers in Chicago could ever, could ever have. They were some, a couple of them were former mob lawyers. Jimmy Hoffer, they represented. Oh, really?

Sam G. and Kana, some big guys. Yeah. And here's us, my partner, I'm just about, just turned 30, my partner is 31. Between us, we had 10 years of experience, they had 100. He had three lawyers, three. Wow. So the book tells about what it took to get those two, two main, witnesses to testify, and also how an international drug smuggling ring became pivotal in actually

getting a conviction in this case, was a witness who was a pilot for a big drug cartel, who knew the parties and had flown the group to a location shortly before the murder to buy cocaine, because we could not tie the defendant to the victims. I mean, the witness saw the bag of guy, but he never seen him before in his life. He didn't know who he was. It was the first time. But we couldn't find one person who could even make it seem like they knew each other. And that's a tough case to bring to a jury. When you got a guy on the stand who's going to have to admit that he was part of a cocaine deal, the one. And why didn't he, why couldn't he have been the killer? I mean, why not? So we had to corroborate him. And the effort that we put in to try to get these

these people to testify. We found this guy. He had crashed the DC6 four-engine airliner in a field in Tennessee and it was loaded with seven tons of pot and 100 pounds of cocaine. That's a rather big crash.

That's Fridays around here. I mean, so he was arrested by a little town sheriff in Tennessee and we didn't know anything about him. I mean, when he got arrested, and we don't know, we didn't even know anything about them. But what happened is about two months before we're ready to go to trial, I'm going,

I'm going through our file. And a little slip of paper got stuck on something. True stuff. I pull it out. And I'm looking at it and it says, Bill Wright-pilot. And it gave the name of a flying service in an airport in Chicago called Midway. And as I was looking at that, one of my deputies, one of my investigators walked up, he happened to look over my shoulder and he says, oh, I know the guy that owns that flying service.

I go, are you kidding me? We didn't know what it meant. So we get in the police car, we go to the airport. And the guy tells us, oh, yeah, I know Billy, right? He used to work for me. He said he flew F4 Phanoms in Vietnam. He's a black guy. And when he got out, he couldn't get a job at the airline.

They weren't taking black guys at the time. So he turned into, he became first a charter pilot. He taught flying lessons. And then eventually he got married at a child and needed more money. so he became a drug smuggler. He blew planes from Ecuador, Guatemala, Colombia, Venezuela, constantly. And this one, so I said to him, he says, why do you need Bill? I said, we don't know.

And I showed him the note. He gets up, he goes, what, what's this all about? I go, what was a murder that took place? And he asked me when. So I said it was March 1st of 76, he goes, okay, he gets up and he goes through this file drawer. And now when you charter a plane, you have to give the chartered. people an itinerary like who's in the plane where you're going what they're how old they are how much they wait so he pulls out a file for this bill wright guy and he finds a slip an itinerary slip

for february 28th and it shows that bill right flew the two victims and the killer to lake geneva wisconsin the day before the buries took place now we were able to tie him in somehow with the victims oh wow i said them where's bill right he goes oh that's going to be a problem. I'm thinking, oh, no, the guy's died or something. Why did he? He goes, no, no, he's not dead. He's getting ready to get life sentence in Tennessee. For what? Then he tells me about the plane crash. I mean, 1976, being Afro-American or black in Tennessee, crashing a plane with seven tons of tons of pounds and a hundred pounds of a coat, was not a good idea. Yeah, that was, yeah. And eastern Tennessee, too. I mean, that was not a good thing to do. I mean, it really, I mean, it was,

It was tense. So I called my partner. Two days later, we're out of playing in the Nashville. We took a charter in this little city, Johnson, City, Tennessee, and we walk into the sheriff's office.

He goes, how are y'all doing? I said, we're doing fine. He goes, I said, we're here to see Bill Wright. I know, I know. That boy we got across the street, that fly boy, I go, yeah, we need to talk to, but what's this all about?

So I came a little rundown. We go across, and we walk into this courthouse. Now, it was a shock. We walk in, we go up these stairs to a gallery we can overlook the court proceedings. And in the middle of the floor was a cage, a real cage.

Wow. And my partner says, what's that cage for? And the deputy said, that's what we put the defendants. We're like, for what? We got a budget problem here. We don't have enough deputies, so we just lock them in there. Wow. I said, wait a second.

How about when they're on trial? Oh, no. When they're on trial, they sit there too. I say, are you telling me, you bring jurors in here and they're looking at a person sitting in a cage? Yeah. You think that's a little prejudicial? Yeah.

I mean, I mean, I'm in the south now, see? So we walk a few feet up into where the jail is, and there sits Bill Wright, the pilot, looked like young Denzel Washington, came up to the bars. He looked at me, he goes, what are you guys with the FBI or something? I go, no, no, no. Because he was looking at federal charges for that much drugs. Yeah. So I said, no one, I told him who we were, and the guy looked down at his hands. And he goes, I got to tell you something.

What's your name again? I go, Greg, he goes, Greg, I have felt bad for four years that I didn't say something to Geo about what was going on that plane. When I flew him to late Geneva, and he got out to pick up his package. He said, his girlfriend and that guy Mitch were in the back seat and they were making out. Oh, wow. The killer was making out with the guy's girlfriend. And he didn't tell, he did not tell, Chio that because he probably didn't want to get in the middle of it. And he said, probably if I would have said something, I might have saved his life.

So we went back down. This is this part you like. So we go back down and the sheriff says, so what? Can I, can I boy over there help you out? I go, oh, yes, sir. I remember this. It was yesterday. He goes, tell me again.

I told him, hold on a second. He takes his, you know, his phone, makes a call. And he's talking to somebody. He goes, yeah, yeah, and I need to talk to him right now. So somebody gets in the phone, we can't hear of that sign. And he says to him, you know, before I, before I tell you, I'm going to call on you. I got a bone to pick with you. We're like, he goes, you missed that family reunion.

My wife made your favorite dish. You know, and you didn't even tell us she weren't coming. You know how bad she felt? Oh, my God. Me and my partner said, what's going on here, man? So then he goes, here's what we got going. We got that boy across the street with that plane. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He goes, but you got these two prosecutors Chicago, they're telling me that boy can help them win a double murder case. Yeah, that's what they're saying. Well, hold on. So he takes the phone, and he goes to give it my partner who was closest to him. My partner's going, I don't know what this is. So I'm the next guy, so I take it. I go, hello, this is Greg Owen. I'm an assistant state's attorney from Cook County, Chicago, Illinois. He goes, Greg, I'm the governor of the great state of Tennessee.

It really was the governor of Tennessee. That's wild, man. I ran the case by him. I get done. He goes, give that phone to that nitwit. He called his cousins. He was a cousin. He was his cousin. Oh, of course. He was the second or third. Yeah, you know how it goes. So he takes the phone to guys talk, and then he gives it back to me. He goes, okay, Greg, we got this all worked out. I'm like, I don't believe this.

He goes, here we're going to do. We're going to lower the charges to a small amount, maybe less than five grams from seven tons. We're going to give him two years. He's already served nine months. So Wednesday's your trial, he says two months. He goes, by the time he gets done with that trial, he just about, could be give him day for day. He'll be walking free. And he did.

And they flew him up. there, put him in a suit, and he testified. Wow. What's the odds of that? You gave that guy, you kind of helped that guy, right? Do you believe? Yeah. Life to two years?

Life to two years. Not a bad deal. I've only got that in my last six marriages. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounded funny. Anyway, let's see here. So you tell the story of the book. It's an exciting adventure people can check in on. As we go out, any other tidbits you want to share to get people to pick it up,

is there any future books? maybe you're putting out. Oh, yes, yes, yes. In fact, the story is written from the prosecutor's point of view. You don't see that very often. Usually a defense attorney or the defendant or the victim or somebody. This is taken strictly from myself and my partner's point of view. We're giving people like a little insight into what goes on behind closed doors when prosecutors put together a trial. Why we put witnesses on in a certain order. Why we stand where we do when we question certain witnesses and stand in different place for others. We go into a lot of detail. And the other thing we go into is sidebars. You know, everybody watches stuff on TV, murder trials. And at some point, you're watching it and, oh, we've got to take a sidebar, and then the TV shows a fan going around or something. What goes on in sidebars is probably the most interesting thing,

even more interesting than the trial sometimes. And we go word for word from transcripts, because we had all the transcripts. Every sidebar is recorded by a court reporter. We actually go into, and in this case, for some reason, the judge never allowed us to do sidebars by the best. He made us go in his chambers all the time. So the court partner had to bring the machine. So we have all these sidebars, and some of the stuff that went back there that went on was just amazing.

Wow. And so the next book, we're already, third of the way there is called Pursuing Kings. And the reason is this, shortly after this trial, a new state's attorney was elected in Chicago. His name was Richard Daly. He went on to be the mayor. Oh, yeah, the Mayor Daley's. Now, when Mr. Rich Daly, when he ran for the prosecutor job, he promised the people he would create a special unit to combat street gangs. Because it was a big problem.

So he gets elected. He wins. I'm thinking I'm going to get fired because I was hired by the other guy. Lo and behold, he calls me to his office maybe a month after he's in. And he says, what would you think about becoming the first chief of gang prosecutions in Chicago history? I was stunned. I go, yeah, sure, you know. And so I ended up

creating the gang prosecution division for the Cook County State's Attorney's Office. Wow. The next book is about how that unit started what we went through and a real, horrible case, of street gang,

which was actually adults called the Royal Family. And they had been articles have been written about the Royal Family, and they were known as the Kings of Killing. Wow. So the book is pursuing kings because that's who we prosecuted.

First, a triple murder, and then a double murder. in Arizona I got involved in, too. Oh, wow. A lot of stuff going on. A lot of stuff going on. A lot of stuff going on there. So interesting, interesting things as well.

Now, so as we go out to any more we want to plug before we go? I mean, we've got to plug your show, of course. I mean, that's important. I mean, but, you know, that goes without saying. No, I think that people will find convergence very compelling. Right now, we have 87 reviews on Amazon, and we're at a 4.9 rating. On Goodreads, we have 73 or 74, and our rating on Goodreads is 4.65, which is extraordinary high. So the reviews are in. I mean, people love the book. Yeah. Because it really

tells you, you know, like in today's world, you know, how so much injustice takes place and nobody's willing to speak up and do anything about it. They just let it happen. Yeah. That's not what we did. We didn't let it happen. We fought for these victims. I mean, our job was to give the victims of voice. Their voice had been extinguished by the killer, their killers, and that was our creed. The victim is a voice. Give them a place at the table in that courtroom. And that's what Convergis really presses, is how if you believe in something strong enough and you do the right thing, you can succeed. Yeah. If you do the right thing, folks, it's really important to do the right thing. You don't want to do the left thing. No. Never do the left thing.

Don't turn left. It's always always go right because that's the right way. You got it. It's been wonderful to have you on the show and talk about your book, convergence and stuff, Greg. We got your dot com one last time before you go out. Yeah, we got 26th Streetbooks.com. That's the website.

And I'm Greg Owen 26th on Instagram and Facebook and all the others. And people can check out your music. Do you have a music site for all the music? I'm working with an artist, a couple of artists right now. studio, co-producing some music. Yeah, I put stuff every now and out. All right. Thank you very much, Greg, for coming to show. We really appreciate it. I really appreciate you having me. Thank you. And thanks for tuning in. Order up his book, wherever fine books are sold. It's called Convergence out September 17th,

2025 by Jonathan Dixon and Greg Owen has been our guest co-author on the show with us there as well. I always mention that so that people know when they search for it. They know, oh, this is the one. Find out of Amazon, wherever fine books are sold. Folks, go to goodreads.com, for chest, Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, for chest, Chris Foss, 1, on the TikTok, any of all those crazy places in the internet. Be good to each other. Stay safe.

We'll see you next time. You've been listening to the most amazing, intelligent podcast ever made to improve your brain and your life. Warning, consuming too much of the Chris Walsh Show podcast can lead to people thinking you're smarter, younger, and irresistible sexy. Consume in regularly moderated amounts.

Consult the doctor for any resulting brain bleed. All right, Greg, that should have a sound.