The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Creative Thinking: A coach’s perspective by André P. Walton

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

Creative Thinking: A coach’s perspective by André P. Walton

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Because you're about to go on a moment. Monster Education Roller Coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hello, folks, Voss here from thecrisVos Show.com. Thanks, gentlemen. Welcome to the big show. As always, the Chris Voss show. He's been here for going on 17 years, 2,600 episodes, all the most amazing journey that we share with you with the brilliant authors, their minds, their stories, their lessons of life, and they can just make your life better. We don't do, we don't have people on

that make your life worse? Well, maybe that's my job. But we have these brilliant authors that do the opposite. So go to goodreads.com, Fortezs, Chris Foss. Facebook.com, Fortezs, Chris Foss, free, your family, friends, and relatives. Make sure you have five people in your downline because Chris Foss show is a multi-level marketing company. No, it's not. Stop it. YouTube.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, and I think Facebook.com, Facebook. Opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or the Chris Foss show. Some guests of the show may be advertising on the podcast, but it's not an endorsement or a review of any kind. It's a very amazing young man on the show.

We're going to be talking about his amazing insights and his learning and things he learned over his lifetime. He's going to share them with you in a wonderful different books that he's written and coaching that he does. His book is entitled, Creative Thinking, A Coach's Perspective, out June 17, 2025, Andre Walton joins us on the show. We're going to get into with him and find out more about his. insights as well. He is the son of a highly creative single mom who was a cook and housekeeper for British gentry in the 1950s, England, and a world-renowned painter whom he didn't know was his dad until he was 10 years old. He was native-born misfit. A posh accent in a local primary school and a loving mother who had no time. It was institutionalized when Andre was

seven years old. He grew up super quick. He went from building concrete. boats in Greece to teaching scuba to developing a unique model of what makes us or prevents us from being creative. Welcome the show. How are you, Andrew? I'm doing great. Thanks, Chris, and it's great to be with you. Great to have you as well. You experienced a brutal bout of burnout after you sold your business and, or after a brutal burnout of burnout, you sold your business and gained a social psychology PhD, focus on organizational level creativity.

And you've been kicking ass ever since. Give us any dot coms, any websites, any links we need to know about so people can follow you on the interwebs. Yeah, sure. My main coaching site

is plan, PLAN, number four, change, plan for change. Dot org. I also have a speaking site, do keynote speaking, breakout speaking, workshops, that kind of thing. And that is hire H-I-R-A-N-D-R-A-N-D-R-E dot com. Hire, Dr. Andre, dot com. And I think you got an offer, didn't you, where people could get a discount if they refer from the show?

Yeah, absolutely. I'm dedicated to trying to help stem the epidemic called burnout that's really racing through our professional community. So anybody that wishes to sign up and they mention the Chris Voss Show, they will get 15% discount on any of my three banishing burnout programs. Banish the burnout. Got to love it. So let's lead off with your book a little bit. Let's talk about creative thinking, a coach's perspective. Give us a 30,000 overview of what's aside this book, sir. Yeah, well, the first, the first goal really is to reposition creative. You know, people often think of creative thinking as something associated with recreation, or, you know, maybe what Aunt Dottie does when she gives up teaching at schools and goes and buys a paint box. It really is a lot more than that.

The first thing to understand is a way of thinking. You know, if we paint, we're not a great artist just because we paint a picture. We paint a great picture because we think creatively. And if you think about it, you know, go back to the. The days of the wheel and the bow and arrow, you know, they were innovations in their time. Before we even had language. And you go up to the world we have now where we have, you know, from the jet engine to the internet to the iPhone, we didn't get these things because we have opposable thumbs.

We got them because creative thinking is an innate human drive. So we need to position it as that. It's not a sort of secondary function at all. It is a really powerful drive that we need to satisfy. There you go. So that's the first goal of the book, really. And then I take the reader through a whole range of different things. So we get to the idea of neural pathways.

And for geeks like me, this is a really fascinating area because for anybody that's not familiar with that, with the advent of fMRI imaging, we were able to stick somebody's head in a little cone and be able to see the pathways in their brain light up as they think or do different things in real time. So it's really interesting because we see creative thinking light up certain neural pathways

that happen to be the same as those lit up with emotional intelligence. That's the first pretty interesting thing. And the second thing is, you know, in social science, it's difficult to measure creativity. So we measure divergent thinking instead. And it so happens that that correlates to happiness. So when people are doing things that think, cause them to think creatively, they will be happier. So the whole idea of using creative thinking in our lives is actually a triple whammy. Now, you had another book called Embracing the New Era.

managing oneself and others in creativity is creativity then a way to combat burnout and boredom you know I really believe it is yes and it's all it's all without sort of getting too much into the weeds here it's all to do with how we think in the sense of convergence and divergence you know I'm I'm assuming that at some point Chris you were a little kid and and And that point may only be last week or something. But let's take it back to when you were like two, three, four, five years old. And I think what the way that you thought there was very different to the way that you think as an adult.

You know, when you watch little kids, they have a very divergent way of thinking. It's like, you know, you take a little piece of a jigsaw puzzle and fit it into the whole picture. That's how they deal with new knowledge. And we don't do that as adults. As adults, our brains have trained us to be as lazy as possible. Sorry, efficient. And so what we do is if we see ourselves in a new space, a new environment, we tend to, our subconscious, you know, disappears off into its filing cabinet room.

And it sees if we've ever done something similar before. And then we do the same thing again. We treat new situations with information from the past. And it's very efficient. It saves us time and energy. But what it does is it tends to make us convergent in our thinking. And you see this in people under stress or with burnout. You know, they're like hamsters in a wheel or, you know, a racehorse with blinders on.

They're trapped in their thinking about their burnout or their stress or whatever. So the nice thing about creative thinking is you add that into the mix. You create new neural pathways for a client. and they start to combat that divergent, that convergent thinking with divergent creative thinking. And it's a very quick and powerful way of building resilience and banishing burnout. And how big is burnout in today's workforce? How, do you, are there any stats on this or anything?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, there are. It's, there are two stats that these are, these are pretty serious studies. One was, basically, it was funded by Microsoft, and it's a global study. And they found that 50% of working professional people had burnout in their current jobs, 50%. 50%. And there's another study, which is equally good science, that tells us that 70% of all adults in the US have been impacted by burnout in some way.

might be a spouse might be a best friend might be a colleague at work and so it's it is really and i call it the silent epidemic because it's something people get embarrassed to talk about i mean it's it's really you know it's seen as a sort of sign of weakness in their minds you know you don't want your boss knowing that maybe you're burnt out because you know then the boss will be like well maybe we need to move you out exactly well or sideline you or even worse, you know. Yeah, or demote you or, you know, whatever. But, you know, nowadays they're really hunting for the weakest links and companies,

and I don't even think they're doing the weakest link. It seems they're just laying off everybody with AI. But welcome to 2025. And I think we're going into recessionary economy. But, yeah, so you don't want to have your, you don't want to be the guy who's not contributing or not burning out. You know, I mean, you can tell when people have burnout, right? I mean, you can feel it. I mean, I've had employees that have burned.

out I've had employees that I've had salespeople that have come to me being you know technically the sales manager as CEO and and they're like you know I keep Chris I can't get motivated I I you know my bank's full and my belly's full and all my problems are fixed to now that I've been successful with your company and and I now I can't motivate myself to go because I'm used to having a lack so you got to go in and fix it but being creative Do you think that maybe that 50% burnout figure is because in most companies, they don't really want you to be creative. I mean, creative is kind of an entrepreneurial thing. In most companies, you know, they just want you to, you know, color within the lines, do what you're told.

It's a real do what you're told sort of environment. Would you, what do you think on that? Yeah, there was a very interesting study done. I mean, we're talking now about sort of 10 to 15 years ago. And over 70% of upper executives had innovation on their top kind of priority list. Of that, something like 73% in the low 70s. And of those people, something like 5% actually did anything about it. Oh.

So it's a great. Some people just print their teeth and hold on. And I see this in companies that I work with in that, you know, sometimes when you really dig below the surface, this desire for creativity and innovation is actually window dressing. It makes them look good. It makes them feel good. You know, if it's a publicly quoted company, their shareholders like to see, oh, these guys are really good at the innovator. Exactly. So they build a little shed at the end of, you know, behind.

the parking lot, you know, put, pad it with, pad all the walls and stick a couple of creative people in it. And then they could just go ahead and do whatever they're going to do. And, you know, unless you incorporate creativity as a core value, those people in the shed never really get a voice because nobody listens to them. Nobody really appreciates what they're doing. I'm seeing here, there's real science to it because doing creative mental health processes and stress relief can help mood-enhancing chemicals like dopamine and endorphins. And so it can really give you those feel-good chemicals. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, big, big time. And that's where the enhancing happiness comes in that I was referring to. So it's a really powerful. I wanted to just mention something, to pick up on something that you just said a little earlier, in the world of AI. Creative thinking can play a hugely important role in that. There was an interesting study done earlier this year, and it came from Carnegie Mellon

and I believe it was also partially funded by Microsoft. And they found that upper execs that are using AI tend to be poorer at creative thinking. Oh, wow. And so there was an interesting interview with the head honcho at Nvidia. And he was saying that didn't surprise him at all, but that what people needed to do

was to actively use creative thinking when they're using AI. You know, if you think about it, You've got a great AI program sitting there on a computer or your access to that platform. And you've got a choice. You know, it's as if you've managed to employ a genius to be a right-hand person. And you can either say, wow, this guy is so good. I've got to give him everything that I can possibly do to, you know, reduce my work loan.

So I can go play golf and da-da-da. Or you can say, wow, this is incredible to have this resource here. going to try and learn as much as I can from this as we go along. And those are the choices. And it seems intuitive, the human brain is inherently lazy. It seems intuitive that you're going to choose the first choice, that you're going to basically say, okay, what can I just pass off onto this genius that I've got trapped in this little box here?

And not use it as a true learning resource to improve your own cognitive processes. And so, you know, that's another really important aspect of the creative thinking process is that people who manage to create that cognitive process in their minds are going to be the ones that come to the float to the top with the new era of AI. I've seen, you know, the one thing that AI has helped me do is be more creative because they can do my own things like logos or pictures. like I do a lot of Facebook groups and even like advertisements and stuff. I mean, you can have AI create stuff for you. And, you know, it used to be I had to go, you know, go to an artist and pay them to, you know, give me a logo that looks like this, right? And, you know, they bring it, you know, in ninth or it was at 10, they bring me something

I don't like. And so the problem I was how we're working with them is there's always a lot of back and forth, a lot of time consumption because I'm like, no, I don't like that. And, you know, sometimes they bring me stuff that I'm just. just like artwork that I'm just like, that's really awful. It doesn't convey what I want to do at all. And, you know, maybe I'm too particular, but I like things done in a certain way when it, when it comes to the quality or the look that I'm looking to present for a brand.

And so it's always been frustrating for me, and it costs a lot of money because you're constantly going back and forth. And sometimes it's just, you know, the artist has a certain thing. And you see them and you go, I'd look great if they could do it this way. And they just don't do it that way. So with AI, it's made me more creative because I can go in and create my own logos, my own artwork now. I can create me on. I mean, they've democratized basically Hollywood where you can go in and just do about whatever you want.

And so, yeah, you're right. I think that's the one thing we had a discussion once with AI is, is it going to make it everyone brainless because they're not going to, you know, do any, any, dedicated thinking anymore. They're just going to go, oh, with the property to AI, okay, we're done. Or is it going to really take us to the next creative level? And I find with me and many of my friends are Silicon Valley encoders and stuff like that, I find they're using it pretty creatively. I think that's, it depends on your environment and what you're doing.

I mean, I'm with you. I just love the fact that I can, you know, get all this stuff done, you know, myself. and you know if i if i'm putting a logo together also it's saving me so much time you know you've got a designer some of my people i was working with are in india so you know i i give them a brief they go ahead and do it well it's the following morning when i get the thing and i say you know what this really isn't what i had in mind and so i send them a brief to how to change it and it's the day after that because of course they're you know 12 hours away from us so you know it's so you know it's saved so much time. But I think it depends. If you put yourself in a in a corporate setting in your mind. Now, I know it's a painful process, but just do it for a second. You know, you wouldn't be doing that sort of stuff. Somebody would be coming over and saying, you know, that's not your job. We've got people to do that. So, you know, the, the act of keeping you in your lane is preventing you from using AI to be truly creative.

Yeah. Well, I mean, that'll definitely do it. So let's talk about some of the offerings you have on your website and how you help people avoid this thing. I see several programs and burnout on plan for change.org. Give us a rundown of some of the ways that people can interact with you. I see they can book a call. Give us some, just a teaser out on some of the offerings you have here. Yeah, well, I have three offerings, really. One is a, it's a pre-established. program. It's very inexpensive. It's normally $397. It's down to 187 if they talk about your pro, you'll mention your show. And that is a six module program. You've got six videos. You've got six workbooks and you've got six blocks of text to guide you how to go through that. And it's really designed for people who are feeling highly stressed and who measure sort of over 50% on the well on the wellness scale in terms of the amount of burnout. And that guides you, all my programs guide you regarding long-term resilience.

That's one of the other frightening statistics is that 50% of people who have burnout have it recur within 18 months. So we're trying to kind of build this process where you, it becomes a habit to sort of catch yourself when something is happening to you that is conducive to burnout. So the other two programs are, they involve one-on-one coaching with me, and one is a 60-day program, the other is a 90-day program. And basically, in the early stages of both those programs, we establish the three R's. We have a custom design set of three programs, the three R's.

and that's to do with your relationships with other people, your recreations, and your responsibilities. And the reason for that is that when people have burnout, one of the things that they almost inevitably do is they tend to push people away, the very people who could be helping them get pushed away. So that's why we work on relationships. We work on recreation because that's another thing that just disappears from people's lines when they get burned out.

They get burnout. out, they feel all sorts of negative reactions, and they believe that those reactions can be counted by just working harder, doing more stuff. That's just burn out more, right? Absolutely. It's a really nasty, vicious circle. And so, you know, that's the reason we do that. And then responsibilities, because the other thing that's tied to the second R there, is that

people tend to get more and more controlling. So we have to, we do an audit of their responsibilities and say, okay, which ones are these do you think you can, you know, just delegate? And so we have the three. Now, both of those programs have, have those. But they're, the 90-day program is a little bit more intense in terms of one-on-one coaching. And it's really designed for people who have really severe progress, severe burnout. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and a lot of entrepreneurs are guilty of that.

I think a lot of maybe untrained or newer managers, you know, they don't delegate. They try and do everything themselves, and that will contribute to that. And I've been guilty of that, being an entrepreneur all my life, we're like, no, I can still do it better than anyone else. And really, you can't, especially when you're overloaded with so much stuff, you think you're doing, it's kind of an ADHD. D. OCD disease where you're like, I can do it all. And you're like, no, you can't do it. The other area of professional activity that's very prone to it is in the medical profession. Oh, really?

I mean, you saw this, you know, to a really serious degree during, during COVID. But, oh, yeah, I mean, one of my clients is an intern. and he's working 60 days nonstop and then he has three days off. And those 60 days nonstop are typically 12 to 14 hour days. I mean, it's not surprising, you know, you see the cause of burnout right there. But even in established professionals, burnout can be a really serious problem in the medical profession. And serious because of the numbers, but also serious because, you know, if you're just going in for a triple bypass, It's kind of nice to know that your surgeon is not bogged down with something as serious as burnout.

And some companies do, like, they'll do, like, creative workshops or what do they call them, retreats and stuff. But I would think you need more than, you know, a once-in-year retreat, right? I mean, maybe you can go to some tent in Arizona and smoke Hawaska or something. And once a year, that might not be good. I mean, I know as an entrepreneur, one of the things I really enjoy about being an entrepreneur is the creative process. And it can be frustrating, but I don't know, I've been doing it so long. It's just kind of just second nature. But I love being able to create.

The one thing that you can do to kill me is give me a job that I have to do something repetitive and boring over and over and over again. And, I mean, unless I love it. I mean, I do three podcasts a day, Monday through Thursday, but I love it. I love talking to people. I love interviewing people. I love hearing people's stories, their journeys. And, of course, it helps so many people that listen. But other than that, I mean, I can only do three a day.

If I do more than three a day, I burn out. But having the creative process, like one of the things I do is on Saturday is I just go take cameras and go do photography. And over the weekend, I'm usually playing with my photography. And, of course, playing with the business and stuff. But having that outlet where I can just kind of go and think about something completely different and enjoy, I enjoy that outlet too. So that helps. So, you know, find something you enjoy, whether it's, you know, for some people, it's building things, being tactile with their hands, repairing things. For some people, it's reading maybe or writing.

But, yeah, I really like this idea. So I think I may have asked you, do you work with companies and to help them train maybe teams? and then also individuals? Yeah, I do. I work with, sometimes it's with HR departments who are enlightened enough to want to know how they spot this at an early stage. As people don't realize, but it's a pretty contagious thing, burnout. Wow. You have a team of people with, you know, with one or two people with some level of burnout within it.

And the whole team really goes down to the, you know, it's the weakest link in the whole team. team. Oh, yeah. And then usually they start complaining or start what we call tubing others. We used to call that back in the tubing where a negative employee would start bringing everybody down, you know, and they'd start little whisper campaigns, oh, this place kind of sucks. Oh, I hate to work here. You know, that bit.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But one of the things you mentioned there is takes us right back to the beginning of this podcast when, you know, you're talking about you've got there. process at the weekends for going and doing your video work and that kind of thing. It's going right back to the beginning, creative thinking is a way of thinking. It's not a sort of, you know, anything to do with art or any, all those things, you know, art, writing, photography.

They're all part of the creative process. But the underlying thing that goes behind that is creative thinking. And I don't know if you feel this, but I know that, you know, when I give myself time to do something actively creative, it's not sort of a subtle shift in the way you're thinking. It's a change. It's a very definite change. You know, so if I go out into the woods with my camera, you know, that's everything else from the other side of the brain that's going on and on, the deductive, the entrepreneurial side of the brain, that all switch. is off. So, you know, when I'm talking about new neural pathways, that's what I'm talking about, the ability to say, okay, I'm leaving that way of thinking behind, whether you're talking to

somebody with burnout and they're in the hamster wheel or whatever it is. I'm now switching to this way of thinking, you know, and it's a really, it's a really powerful process. I mean, if you look at how the psychiatric profession deal with, an addiction, you know, like gambling or alcohol, drugs or whatever, the first thing you do is you take somebody from the environment they're in and you put them in a totally different environment. So they haven't got any triggers to be saying, oh, I need to shoot up or I need to, you know, bottle of whiskey or whatever. And it's the same thing with changing neural pathways. You know, you're actually creating a new process of thought. And once you get in that habit, you can switch into that and leave behind for a little while all that stuff that's been bugging you. and going around and round in circles. Yeah, I mean, sometimes coming back to something helps keep it fresh by doing something else. You know, I mean, I think a lot more people need hobbies, you know. People, you know, the hobbies sometimes I get wrapped up in is, you know,

do them scrolling on social media or TikTok, you know. And that's really not creative. That's just kind of like, it's just mind-numbing entertainment for your brain. I guess there's probably some dopamine there. I mean, I was laughing my ass off a couple of. videos last night, but I think I might have been high. And so, but that's not really creative.

I don't think it is. I think it's when you're designing stuff. Like, I like playing with stuff. I like noodling with it. I like trying to figure it out, trying to figure out how to do it. And I love the creative process and seeing the final result while I'm like, oh, cool. Look, I made something. Yeah.

You know, photography is that way. I can bring home a thousand pictures I've taken in a day. And you go through and you find these gems and sometimes I usually have my driving contacts in so I can't really see if I have a good picture or not. I kind of know but it's sometimes hard to tell and sometimes I get home and I find stuff that's in the background that helps make it a great picture or in the foreground like sometimes I'll take a picture of someone and I think I took a picture of someone the other day and they had this really wild shirt on and pants that had all

these interesting designs on it that really made for the story and kind of the attitude the guy was conveying on the street as I was street doing street photography and uh but I didn't see that through the lens and sometimes I get all sorts of stuff that I get home and I'm just like wow it's kind of like coming home to a Christmas thing where you're like I'm going to open the present see what it is and that really brings a freshness because then when I returned like I started getting lots of burnout I was doing about four podcasts. a day, Monday through Friday, and we even tried weekends. And I started burning out hard, hard. And so I had to start sending boundaries and go, okay, we're only working Monday through

Thursday. We're taking Friday off to do not do interviews or not really do much business. And I'm going to have a three-day weekend. And I'm going to, I had to start making sure that I got out of my office, because I have a home office. I got out of my office. I went driving some place. I went to, you know, I do little stay vacations. I drive to some place, go visit some place, go eat in a nice restaurant. That was really important. Every Sunday I try and go eat in a nice restaurant. And that's just my reward.

That's my break. That's kind of like my deal I made with myself where, okay, if you work really hard during the week, Chris, we can enjoy the weekend a little bit. And so then I go do something completely different like photography and just whatever, whatever your thing is. But then when I come back on Monday, I'm all refreshed. I'm all ready to come back to the repetition, and I feel good. And maybe more corporations need to make more space for this. Maybe they need to do things more often. Maybe there needs to be more tasks that they give to employees on how to be creative.

Oh, I think that's true. I think that's true. I think also they need to reconfigure the whole aspect of work, the whole balance between work and non-work. I mean, back in the UK in the 70s, when the oil crisis hit and they introduced at the federal level the three-day week. And other than sort of emergency services, that was the deal. Just regular companies were forced to reduce their working time for three days a week. And everybody thought this was going to be a productivity disaster. How could it not be. And of course it wasn't. In actual fact, there's some studies that suggested that productivity

actually went up. Mine's gone up since I started taking Fridays off. Mine's gone up. Now, I'm an entrepreneur. So you think about your business 24-7. You dream it. You know, there's always emails or something I'm answering. But I literally about, I think it was two months ago or three months ago, I made the decision to stop working on Fridays. And because we slam a lot. I mean, there's almost no podcasters. I know they do three shows in a day, maybe at the really upper levels. But it's really hard to sustain. And it's really, you really have to like people, be interested in people and enjoy the process of hearing people's stories and trying to be good hosts and make good content. But, and so for me, it's a labor of love. But still, I was burning out.

and I found that I'm more refreshed by taking Friday off. You know, I still answer clients' emails and stuff like that, but I don't get in front of clients on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. Those are Chris Foster's days now. And I found that by taking Friday off, I'm more productive. I'm more productive. And I actually kind of use Friday as still kind of a workday to kind of sit around my office and just tinker, tinker with stuff.

Like, oh, it's, hey, you know, even meaning to redo that logo. redesign that marketing or change this text here, you know, and I find that I can use it to tinker on stuff that I wanted to do. Like the, you know, you always have that task list that's probably 500 miles long of things you want to do if you get the time. That's kind of what I end up doing on Fridays and over the weekend is it kind of tinker. And, you know, since I work from home and have had a home office since 2004, I've always been able to, you know, piddle about the office at will, you know, I can go play a video game, come back and do a little bit of work, go play a video game or go take an app.

And I've just found I'm way more productive by taking that Friday off now. Just way more productive. And there are bits of our entrepreneurial day that are actually fun, and there are bits that are sort of a bit of a drudge. So, you know, if you can create the time to actually do the fun, And it also helps your attitude towards your work improve because you don't naturally associate it with something that you don't really want to get up in the morning to do. So it's nice. It is really important.

That brings another little bit into play here regarding burnout. You know, people, the medical profession, don't recognize it as a distinct disease. They just subsume it under the heading work. under the heading workplace stress. And, you know, it's wrong on so many different fronts. But one of the things I do with my clients is I sort of say, well, why now? Why weren't you here a year ago? And when you analyze it, for some of them, there was one specific event that triggered the

oncoming of burnout. But for many, the stress level didn't change in the course of the year. So, you know, how I define stress now is having a challenge for which you do not have the resources to cope. So, and that's, you notice that with, with a lot of people, but, you know, the stress level didn't actually change, but your own resources changed. And, you know, it's refreshing to hear what you're saying there about taking care of yourself at the weekend, having Friday as a, you know, I don't have to work day.

You know, you're taking care to make sure that your resources can deal with the challenges the rest of the week. And so that's a critical part. That way of thinking is a crucial part of helping people become resilient to the recurrence of burnout. So how can people on board with you? How can they get to know you better? I see Book a Call here. How can they find out more?

Well, they can find out a little bit more about what I do by watching my TEDx, my TEDx on YouTube, Dr. Andre Walton, TEDx, Anchorage earlier this year. My website that I gave you at the beginning there, Plan, the number four, change.org. That has all my burnout programs. It also has a page about my books. I've also on the Hire, Dr. Andre.com, hire d.r.ondre.com.

There's a gallery page that has a lot of stuff that I've printed from, you know, in Harvard Business Review, various other publications and so forth, that gives you an idea of the kind of work that I'm doing. All right. Sounds good then. Well, and so as we go out, thank you very much for coming the show.

We really appreciate you coming on, Andrew. Thank you so much for hosting it. And I really appreciate you inviting me on to it. It's a fabulous show, Chris. We appreciate having you. Thank you very much for your support. Give us.coms, and I think that's, an offer you had for a percentage off?

Yeah, absolutely. So anybody that is feeling as if they might be on the edge of burnout or, you know, when they when they have a cold, hard look at themselves, say, yes, actually, I think you've already got burnout. Don't hesitate to click on the call button and get to my calendar page and organize a call with me. And I can put you into a questionnaire that really has set up. is the degree of your burnout, and we'll figure out which of the three programs I offer

would be of most helped you at the stage you're out. Well, thank you, Andre, for coming to the show. Thanks, I'm honest, for tuning in. Order of the book, wherever fine books are sold. Creative Thinking, a coach's perspective, June 17th, 2025. It's out. To refer the show to your family, friends, and relatives, go to goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Foss.

LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, 1, on the TikTok, and eat all those crazy places on the internet. for the folks who commented on the show. Burnout is real. A change in scenery is the ultimate cure to burnout. And let's see, we've got a few people. As an artist and technical person who feel the switch from left brain to right brain,

it's how I deal with stress. That's kind of an interesting comment from Lori there, isn't it? She uses the left brain, right brain. Yes, it is. That is still a usable concept. It's actually been disproven that we use left brain for one thing, right, being for the other.

Nonetheless, the concepts are definitely still very valid. Yeah, Lori finds tinkering, relaxing, and it gives you a big thank you, doctor. So thanks for tuning in. Be sure to be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time. And that you have us out.