The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Curiosity-Driven Leadership and Co-Parenting Insights with Jon Bassford

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Curiosity-Driven Leadership and Co-Parenting Insights with Jon Bassford John's Consulting Firm: ThinkLateral.com John’s Personal Website: JohnBassford.com About the Guest(s): Jon Bassford is an operations professional and entrepreneur, specializing in curiosity-driven leadership. With a background in law, John has launched and managed operations for various organizations including venture-backed startups and global nonprofits. He is the founder of Lateral Solutions, a consulting firm that helps organizations scale efficiently by analyzing and optimizing their operations. John's curiosity is his superpower, and he channels it to foster cultures of innovation and inquiry within organizations. He is also an author, with upcoming books focusing on effective co-parenting and leadership through curiosity. Episode Summary: In this episode of The Chris Voss Show, host Chris Voss sits down with Jon Bassford, an operations expert and entrepreneur, to delve into the art of curiosity-driven leadership and effective co-parenting. Drawing from his diverse experiences in launching startups, managing global nonprofits, and his personal challenges, Jon shares insights from his two upcoming books: "The Co-Parenting Secret: It's Not About You" and "The Curious Leader: Navigating the Power of Asking Questions and Fostering a Culture of Inquiry." Throughout the conversation, Chris and Jon explore the significance of asking the right questions to drive organizational growth and innovation. John discusses how an inquisitive mindset can enhance decision-making processes and lead to more efficient operations. The conversation also touches on the importance of intentionality in both leadership and co-parenting, highlighting how these concepts are woven into his books. The episode is filled with humor, personal anecdotes, and practical advice, making it an engaging listen for entrepreneurs, leaders, and anyone interested in personal development. Key Takeaways: Curiosity in Leadership: Cultivating a curious mindset in leadership can drastically improve organizational efficiency and foster a culture of innovation. Effective Co-Parenting: The key to successful co-parenting lies in realizing it's not about the parents but about creating a supportive environment for the child. Intentionality is Crucial: Being intentional in both professional and personal aspects can lead to more meaningful and productive outcomes. Psychological Safety: Creating an environment where employees feel safe to express their ideas can lead to significant growth and innovation. Learning Culture: Establishing a culture of continuous learning and inquiry can help organizations stay ahead in a rapidly changing environment. Notable Quotes: "The quality of your life is the questions you ask." "Leaders speak last." "Curiosity cultivates change, which fuels innovation and growth." "It's not about you; it's about the kids." "Creating a curious culture requires intentionality."

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Ladies and gentlemen, I wish I could hit those high notes, but after 14 years of singing that intro,

I finally had to give it up. I was hurting my... You know Geddy Lee had that high voice from Rush, and then he didn't after a while. I've kind of reached the Geddy Lee old age voice thing, so I no longer sing that after 14 years or 16 years now, but I think we gave it up a year ago or something. Anyway, enjoy The One and Far and Lately.

Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisfast, linkedin.com, 4chesschrisfast. Chris Foss won the TikTok, and he has all those crazy places on the internet you can find us. Today, we have an amazing young man on the show with us today. We're going to be talking about his insights and two new books that he has coming out soon. One is called The Co-Parenting Secret. It's not about you, and it's going to be released later this year in 2024 and there is the curious leader navigating the power of asking questions and fostering a culture of inquiry and that's expected late fall 2024 as well i like this idea the curious leader i i kind

of do a little bit of curious leading around the office here usually the curiosity entails what the fuck are you doing anyway i'm just kidding is that in your book john yes i do use the analogy of you know the mischievous curious george in my talks as well what are you doing or get the fuck out anyway and i'm just doing jokes here folks john bass bassford is on the show with us today welcome to the show john how are you i'm great how you doing you're an operations professional and entrepreneur driven by your curiosity curiosity of knowledge your superpower do you have a cape for that john do i have the what do you have a cape for that i don't but i do have a c on my chest okay wow do you have a big, do you have a tattoo? I just shave the chest hair and put a C in it every day. I have an A in my chest because most people call me an asshole.

Anyway, so it's your superpower and has driven your professional, personal and professional advancement, but I'm voting for a cape. So after law school, John put this curiosity to work, launching and managing and improvising operations for venture-backed capital startups to global nonprofits with impact. And he loves curiosity.

Maybe he was a cat in a previous life. Who knows? But he believes in curiosity-driven leadership. Welcome to the show, John, again. Tell us,.coms, where can people find you on the interwebs? Sure. My consulting firm is www.think-lateral.com and then you can also go to johnbassford.com as well i seriously have a whole rebranding for you

in my head right now like i just see you in a cape and leotards and you know kind of the whole batman from the 60s look going on and curiosity engage or something you have to have like something that activates it maybe we'll look at that for the book cover yeah i dude you dude you got a book cover right there man seriously you got gold people are going to see that be like captain curiosity you're gonna have to i'm gonna charge you for that one anyway john give us a 30 000 overview what you do there at the business you're running sure the. The company is Lateral Solutions. When I first started out, I launched operations for some startups, both for-profit and non-profit, and then stayed on as a fractional COO.

But what I've transitioned into is coming into organizations, again, for-profit, non-profit, and analyzing their operations, helping them get curious about their operations so they can grow and scale with data-driven decisions. I do a lot of organizational evaluations too. Mostly it's walking to places like, I don't know, the local grocery store in Smiths and going, what the hell is going on here? You kind of notice there's a theme and the callback of the joke where, anyway, it's a callback. Yeah, it's there. You've got two books coming out. Give us in your words, kind of what's inside some of these books. Sure. So the first one, the one on co-parenting, is more just a

project of passion. So I kept being asked by people, you know, how is parenting going with my ex-wife? And I said, it's great. We could write a book. And so I got tired of saying that, and write a book. And we're in final edits right now, and it's going to be released in the next month or two. Has there been any fighting over the edits? I'm sorry. I just said. She's, she's read through it twice and no major pushbacks on anything.

Ah, she'll probably take half the profits. Anyway, to more jokes aside, tell us about the other book. Yeah. The other one is, is,

is about, you know, harnessing curiosity, super power, really trying to learn how to ask questions, dive into your operations, you know, learn to ask the, the why to learn how to ask questions, dive into your operations, learn to ask the why, the how, the what, so you can constantly grow and change in your organization. Yeah. I remember as a kid, this was many centuries ago, when I was hanging

out with Joe Biden. I love Joe Biden. But I was hanging out with Joe Biden and Abraham Lincoln, I think. We were sitting around shooting the shit. And I read Anthony Robbins' books. This is nonsensical, people. Don't try and connect the dots. And I think it was Awaken the Giant Within, his second book from Anthony Robbins. And one of his big proponents in there was asking questions and how the key to the quality of your life is the questions you ask. And I said to him, what the fuck is going on over here? Anyway, no, I'm just kidding. It's a a callback joke but that really helped me in my business asking

questions is this the best we can do why do we do it this way you know there's the old business adage of you know you walk into a place and you're like what you guys are doing is stupid here why are you doing it this way and and they go I don't know we you know the guy before me did this way we've always done it this way why why ask questions we just kind of did what everyone did and you're like there's a better way if you just ask better questions what do you think about that 100 you know i started my career in the non-profit association space and it probably isn't a an industry that's more aligned with just doing things the way they've always done it and not asking why they

have people of long tenure, their volunteers, their boards, their staff, and they just tend to do the same thing over and over again. And it takes someone a lot of times outside to come in and say, Hey, why are we doing it this way? Yep. Why are we doing it this way? You know, have you ever heard the story of the turkey legs and the turkey in the oven and the in the newlyweds? I don't think so. There's a few variations of the story and let me see if I can speed run it So there's there's variations. So don't write me if it's not the right one. Give me a break But you might want to use this in your book. There's a newlywed couple they get married and they have their first Thanksgiving together. She Takes the turkey and he why he's watching her there in the kitchen.

She tears off the legs and throws them in the garbage and cooks the turkey. And he's like, what did you just do? Because that's my favorite part. And she goes, I don't know. That's the way my mom always did it. And he goes, we need to call your mom and find out what the fuck is going on. Like I say, it was a callback joke. What's going on around here?

So her mom goes, I don't know. My grandmother, my mother, your grandmother always did it this way. And they go, we should probably find out. So they call her and she goes, I don't know. My mother, your great grandmother always did it this way. And so for four generations, they'd been just doing what mother, grandmother, great-grandmother had been teaching them to do to put the turkey in the oven and cook it for Thanksgiving. And so they go, let's call up great-grandmother. You know, great-grandmother is still 100 years old.

She's still alive there in West Virginia. And they call her up and they go, hey, why did you always cook the turkey that way? And she goes, in the old days, we had these tiny ovens that were just barely coming out of the ovens, and they were just these little things. So you couldn't cook the legs with the turkey because it was too big, and you couldn't refrigerate the legs because we didn't have refrigerators back then. So you'd have to throw them out because they'd go bad if you cooked the turkey. Interesting story.

I was guessing a white meat, dark meat. You cook the turkey. Interesting story. I was guessing a white meat, dark meat thing, but that's a better story. That's a whole other show. Anyway, you know, a perfect example of no one questioning why do we do things the way we do until someone finally did and found out that the answer, you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's a perfect example. I love that example. So if you want, shove that in your book. I think there's a few variations of it on the internet.

Yeah. My first job in my career, I really saw how asking the right questions can change things. I was on the road training for this job, and I was being told people should do X, Y, and Z. But I couldn't find it anywhere in writing, like no manuals, no nothing. So I went back and said, where is this located? And I was told in the back of this manual for if you go to conference. I was like, what happens if I leave my book at conference? Will I ever see it again? No. If I don't go to conference, will I ever see it? Probably not. I'm like, and this was the lifeblood of this

organization. Everything people were supposed to do was in this document that was buried in the back. I said, can I bring this to the forefront and start getting this out? And they said, yeah. And in six years, we had 20% increase in growth and membership, 500% increase in programming, all because I brought this document that was stuck in the back of a manual and brought to the forefront because no one ever thought to say, hey, if what we want people to do let's tell them oh we got to tell them yeah yeah yeah hocus pocus stuff is this we have to tell people yeah you just gotta lead them to the water you know before you think they'll drink yeah feed them salt that makes

sure that they drink anyway trick i learned with horses learned with horses. Anyway, don't do that, people. So tell us a little bit about your upbringing. What shaped you? What got you down these roads and into these businesses? What were some of the proponents that helped you with your journey? Sure. So it's a little interesting. I was born in the Midwest.

Baptist family is very conservative financially, socially, everything you can think of. You know, church, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, went to the same Christian high school that my mom graduated from in a Baptist church. So very, very, you know, traditional Midwest upbringing, but, you know, again, kind of the curiosity in me, I began to question some things and think about things differently and how I saw them. And, you know, I really say that, you know, my upbringing kind of really helped shape who I was and my analytical nature. And so you got down these roads, now you're writing books. What are some of the other things you're doing on your website?

Sure. Speaking is a big thing that I'm doing. I'm really branching out now and doing a lot more speaking. Workshops come from executive coaching standpoint and, and staff culture standpoint, as well as keynote talks. So I actually have a couple coming up for some small organizations and nothing, nothing majorly public, but looking forward to those. Hey,

speaking, speaking, man. Yeah. You know, especially if the check clears, it always leads to bigger and better things. You know,

Diddy's doing speaking right now in a, in a, in a very large room, very large place. Yeah. You know, it's just, you move up the very large room, very large place. Yeah. You move up the food chain or down. I don't know. Wait.

Am I confused? Anyway. What's going on around here? Anyway. So it's great. You've got the book coming out. Was it hard to write two books kind of at the same time, or did you do them at the same time? I probably shouldn't be assumptive there.

I mean, roughly. Roughly kind of overlapped a little bit. I didn't dive too deep in the second one until I started wrapping up the first one and was waiting on. I probably shouldn't be assumptive there. I mean, roughly. Roughly kind of overlapped a little bit. I didn't dive too deep in the second one until I started wrapping up the first one and was waiting on it. It's that sort of thing. But, you know, they both really kind of wrote themselves. Again, I don't want to say it wasn't a long process and hard work. But these are things that I kind of breathe and live every single day.

And it kind of flowed out pretty, pretty quickly for me. Ah, you know, I, I, I've dated all my life and I think I started dating single moms at age 28 and now I'm 56 and I'm really tired of it. No, I'm just kidding. They're wonderful. Single moms are wonderful. They're beautiful and all that stuff. But, you know, I always had to hear about the ex-husbands and you know whether or not they get along and yada yada yada and it was always you know it's always an interesting

process depend upon who they mated with and stuff in fact sometimes you just if they have too many baby daddies that are problematic people they just really ruin the relationship you have to like bag that so how did So how did you, how did you navigate this? Did you, did you guys first have a hard time getting along? Did you always get along? Do you have an amicable divorce? Give us the deets. Sure. You know, we met our late twenties. We both had done a lot of dating, thought we knew exactly what we wanted and wanted out of life and, you know, fell in love and agreed to get married. But one of the mistakes we made is not living together until after we were engaged. Very, very honest about that. And you convince yourself,

it's learning curves, it's growing pains, it'll get better. We spent four to six years of marriage and counseling. And the crazy part is, is through counseling, we learned to coexist. So we thought we were ready for a kid, but all those problems came back with a vengeance once it was about a kid and not about a house and chores. So it was not the easiest divorce. We did agree to divorce in therapy, but there was a lot of animosity and heartache. But when it came to our son, we both agreed from the start, we're going we're gonna we're gonna do this different we're gonna we're gonna be curious about how we can do this differently and from how we saw things being how i was raised in a divorced family how we saw that in society you know it's it it's so important to the family unit it's so important the kids i mean it's tragic enough and hard enough for them

because they take on the blame of of they take them on the blame of the failure of the relationship you know they personalize it children do and so it's really important to try and have a mature process to these things i think there should be a law passed on it actually in my opinion but what do i know but yeah the the it's so hard and people can be really vicious, right? And I've seen some of the worst of it really over the years where people are withholding kids from one another and fighting over just the stupidest stuff and evolving their kids and stuff.

And you're just like, do you realize how much this spills over into your child do you do you really understand it so i'm glad you're writing a book on giving advice on how people can navigate this better and kind of cool their emotions you know yeah the subtitle you know is is it's not about you right it's about the kids it's about the collective you know it's not about selling scores or getting back or control and here's a little quick quick you know note about our relationship is i'm i am remarried and my ex-wife her partner her parents and her uncles write our wedding really yeah that's a good sign yeah that's a good sign that or they just wanted the free food that's true the booze yeah i i crash a lot of weddings just for the free food. That's true. The booze. I crash a lot of weddings just for the free food.

Yeah. And then, I don't know. It's like Wedding Crashers, the movie, only not as cool. It's like a college party for adults. Kind of. With the food, yeah. I don't know. I got to go to more weddings.

Nobody invites me to their weddings, mainly because I'm the bad single guy who's the awful influence who has all the models that he's dating. And as soon as one of my guy friends meets a girl you know she's we're getting married you're not hanging out with him anymore so i never get invited to weddings ever like seriously i don't no one invites me to their weddings because the the other thing too is they know i'll be the i'll be the guy it was at the movie wedding crashers or old school i'll be i'll be the guy Was it the movie Wedding Crashers or Old School?

I'll be the guy who's standing there at the altar going, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, run. I'll cover you, run. I forget the name of the actor in that movie. They know that I'll be the guy when they say, anyone in here object to this Bob and Suga getting married? I'm like, yeah, me.

What is the problem? I need somebody to wingman me for the models. We're going to Vegas next week. Can we put this off until next week, this wedding thing? Do you get invited to the bachelor party? No, I don't get invited. I'm usually cut out way ahead of time. Usually they meet the girl within about three months and say,

hey, Chris, she says we can't hang out anymore. And then I'm'm like okay dude all right have fun with that call me call me when your your bank account's empty and you're living in a cardboard box which that's when they call me hey chris you want to be friends again how's it going with the lava lamp in your mom's basement in that that cardboard couch mattress she set up what's going good how much did you lose a million or two all right i told you not to do that right yeah all right just so we're clear let's move on to your so i'm glad you're writing this book because people need this book damn it that's that's

basically what i'm saying curiosity i i dude i seriously think you need to be on the cover of this book you know yeah i wouldn't go too cheesy, but I'd do a leotard, whatever cape thing, Superman look. Maybe you want to, you know, if you really want to go, maybe this might be too far. You're ripping up your shirt and people can see the C carved into your hair. That might gag the chicks. I don't know. That might not be good. So it's got the business, you know, got the button down, but then the super owner, you know, business in the front, party in the back type mentality.

Yeah, you can put the C in a butt cheek hair cut out, but I don't think that's going to sell well for you, business clients. So there's that. Might turn people off, yeah. But no, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. Asking the quality of your life is based upon asking good questions. And I remember I used to always ask our staff questions. How can we do this better? How can we improve?

What am I not seeing? That used to be one of my favorite questions. What are we not seeing? You know, I would design some sort of new sort of innovation or some sort of new process from A to B or A to Z, whatever, in the flow through the business. And I'd be like, okay, what's wrong with this model? I don't know. It looks pretty good to us. I mean, no, in the flow through the business. And I'd be like, okay, what's wrong with this model? I don't know. It looks pretty good to us.

I mean, no, like seriously, what is wrong with it? Let's look at it hard. Let's, you know, cause everyone, you know, they give you the yes man thing is when you're the boss, they're like, oh, it's your idea. It must be brilliant. You know? And I'm like, I learned a long time ago, I'm not the purveyor of all the greatest ideas in the world.

I've got, I've got the bank account to prove it. And so I love what you're on to there. And sometimes asking the hard questions makes all the difference. Yeah, 100%. And, you know, you mentioned there about your staff, you know, not giving you their thoughts. There's something I've been saying for a while. I've learned that Simon Sinek is also using the phrase. So I guess I've got to give him credit for it, but it's leaders speak last.

If you want your staff's true opinion, don't give yours first. You've just skewed everything that they may have that might be valuable to you and your organization for a different perspective. You've just thrown that out the window. Unless you just really have this type A, challenge the the boss type staff you've lost their true opinion i've done that i've done that mode before but nowadays i when i do surveys or i question people i try not to put what i call my thumb on the scale so i try not to give like you say my opinion first because then everyone coalesce around it and be like don't don't challenge this idea

no and so i i like the wild card of what comes when i don't put my thumb on the scale and he and so you tend to get more honest answers by making yours last and then i usually use it like mclaughlin or whatever that political show was back in the day when we get done doing the round table i go you're all wrong this is the truth wasn't it mclaughlin wasn't there i don't know not sure mark it out and tell everybody they're fucking wrong i was gonna give their opinions on npr or something it was public radio so yeah what else do we need to know about your two books what do you want to tease out some more that we haven't touched on sure so you know what i'm about know, helping organizations improve their operations,

right? That's everything from your organizational identity and your decision-making process to what you do on a daily basis and whether or not that's driving the results you're intending. And then, you know, we kind of been talking about the software side of this, you know, the culture, getting the ideas from your staff innovation and just, you know, my co-parenting book and co-parenting, we were intentional, right. About, about creating that type of relationship in the co-parenting, creating a curious culture and creating an innovative culture is absolutely has to be intentional as well. Culture is real form, whether or not you're intentional or not. But if you want what you, if you want to create something intentional, you got to be intentional with it. Yeah. You've got to have intentional stuff. Do we want to talk about

this company, Lateral Solutions at all? Do we want to plug in? Yeah. Yeah. So it's been around for about six years. Again, when I launched it, I launched operations. So basically where an incorporating attorney steps off, I step in. Accounting, finance, HR, insurance, bank accounts, everything you need to launch an operating business is where I'd step in and I'd stay on as a fractional COO. And I've really kind of helped turn around a lot of organizations, both as a full-time employee and consultant. And I started thinking about what can I do to help turn around these organizations quicker when they need some change and need some growth? And that's when I came up with some tools and some practices to really dive into operations, learn about the operations in a quick way.

So you can create some strategic growth plans from that. Ah, so lateral, what was it again? Lateral solutions. Lateral solutions. And I got a funny story how that where that name came from have you seen the movie the upside yeah i think so brian cranston's character in that talks about his his company was lateral his book was lateral thinking right thinking of creative ways to solve problems and doing things differently so i kind of adopted

that and called it lateral solutions oh i love, I love it. I love it. Thinking laterally, you know, like Tom Brady or something. I don't know. Does he throw laterals? I don't know. Yeah. Sometimes. There's a, there's a, yeah, I'm the, you know, it's an interesting aspect of learning to think differently. And it used to just drive me mental. In fact, when I go into companies, I'll be like, why don't you guys do it this way? this is really stupid know what you do have you ever sat down and thought about it you know and a lot of people don't they're just like I don't know the person before me told me this is how they did it and the

person before he told me this you know just like the turkey story right yeah and and so that that that can be called the difference when it comes to innovating because you constantly have to be growing as business you constantly have to be innovating you've got have to be growing as a business. You constantly have to be innovating. You've got to constantly be looking at what's coming at you on the horizon. It really makes all the difference. And asking the hard questions, getting learning organization. I really like Peter Senge's book.

I've talked about this ad nauseum on the show. I like to torture my audience. The Fifth Discipline, his book that he put out, and then the workbook thereafter is just amazing. And, you know, he talked about creating what you mentioned earlier, that culture of learning, where people ask questions, they think through stuff, rather than just going, I don't know, they taught me to do this, and I do it, and I don't ask questions. Yeah. And, you know, having a culture in an organization where people think about stuff and what they're doing, and does it really impact the bottom line? Does it fulfill the mission of the organization? Any of your thoughts on that? you know we've all sat in meetings before right and the CEO asked for for feedback whatever and who's who's the person that speaks and everyone just cringes they're like why the hell are you speaking the new person the new person because you've been here for two minutes what the hell

do you have to contribute to this conversation the actual the actual answer is a lot because they're not bogged down the habits their traditions everything else that goes along with you know just doing the same old thing they're the ones that are coming in giving fresh insights fresh views and can truly help move the needle in in growing and changing because they have the freshest eye oh yeah yeah you know in in if you're in the ceo ivory tower you know you can be out of tune a lot of great ce that I see, they walk the front line, they get out amongst the peoples, and they talk to people and ask questions. What do you need help with?

What's working? What's not working? What do we need to do better? And those are really important. Instead of just going around like I used to do and just get on your soapbox and bark at people. They go around and they ask questions and they're listeners. I was a big listener in my organization when I'd walk through it.

I'd listen to stuff. Sometimes I'd stand there and just listen to what my employees were doing, conversations they were having, whether it was on the phone with clients or just wandering around. Sometimes they'd hang out in the bathroom even though it was the female's bathroom. No, I didn't. I didn't do any of that. Stop it. This is a joke, people.

Don't write me. But no, I'd listen. And it was funny how my business partner would be like, God, you're in touch with everything that goes on here. Sometimes you even know the numbers, and you don't know the numbers until they come in at the end of the month. I'm like, yeah, because I listen a lot.

And that's really important. And I think giving people the opportunity to feel like they contribute with questions and have input and that you're listening to them, I think that makes a difference in their experience as well as employees. Yeah, it also goes hand in hand with psychological safety. Google did a study called Project Aristotle, where they're trying to find out what it is that made teams the best.

They thought it was going to be all kinds of things. What ended up being in psychological safety, this notion that you get to know your staff to where they feel open and safe to contribute is how you're going to get that feedback. And like you said, walk around listening, get to know your staff is vitally important to making them feel safe. It also allows you to get to know what makes them tick, what makes them excited to get up in the morning, what makes them excited to come back to work. I talk about this a lot when I'm dealing with generational issues, right?

When we talk about older generation always saying the younger generation is entitled. They don't want to do the work. They want to do what they want to do. when we talk about older generation always saying the younger generation is entitled. They don't want to do the work. They want to do what they want to do. I want a team that's doing 90% of what they want to do, not 10% of what they want to do because they're going to have fewer mistakes, be more energized, be more productive, and be happier at work for all of us. Yeah. You want that.

You want them to be happy. Yeah. You want to be involved in everything else. What else have we talked about that's coming out of your books and all the other things that are in between there? Yeah. So another book that's kind of on the horizon, which kind of ties to the curiosity aspect, is the DIY dilemma. And this notion that, you know, as leaders in entrepreneurs, we got to feel like we do everything ourselves. And we've almost kind of created this environment in our culture and society where, you know, we wear sacrifice and everything as a badge of honor. You know,

we have to torture ourselves to be successful. You know, again, whether you're talking about the, you know, the single single parent who feels they're doing everything on their own or the business-centered entrepreneur, it's this notion that, you know, we have to go through this series of sacrifice and torment

in order to be good at something and be great at something where if we just kind of learn to work together collectively and open things up and accept advice and help that we'd get a lot more done. Oh yeah. I mean, if you're, if you're roadblocking, you know, advice and help and you're like, I don't know, you know, you're just, you're just

putting a, you're just putting a, a crux in everything and slowing everything down. And you know, if people feel that they're onboarded, then, you know, they feel like they have input. They're part of the team. And that can make all the difference in the world. So this has been really insightful. I'm excited to see your books come out. And I love the curiosity thing. Of course, we've already sold you on the cape and everything, so we'll expect to see you in that Batman outfit from the 60s.

Don't go with the slick satin look. Maybe a little bit, I don't know, higher design or something. All right. John, thank you very much for coming on the show. Give us your final thoughts. Tell people how they can onboard you, how they can reach out to you, figure out how to do business with you, etc. Yeah, it was great talking with you as well

and I enjoyed the conversation. A lot of this has been about being intentional in what you're doing and driving the results that you want. And curiosity cultivates change, which fuels innovation and growth. And I've lived my life by that, both personally and professionally. And if you want to get ahold of me,

again, my two websites are think-lateral.com and johnbassford.com. You can go there and reach out to me through my website and happy to have conversations. If you're looking for speakers and reach out to me through my website and happy to have conversations if you're looking for speakers, keynotes, whatever. I'm happy to have a conversation. Thanks, John, for coming to the show. It's been a fun discussion. Thank you. You too.

Thanks for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, FortressCurseFoss, LinkedIn.com, FortressCurseFoss, CurseFoss1, the TikTokity. Oh, it's a crazy place on the internet. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time.