The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Customer Experience Expert Lynn Daniel Shares Insights on Entrepreneurism and Respect

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Customer Experience Expert Lynn Daniel Shares Insights on Entrepreneurism and Respect Thedanielgroup.com ### About the Guest(s): Lynn Daniel is the CEO of The Daniel Group, a company he founded in 1989. With a background in management, consulting, corporate planning, and product management, Lynn has led The Daniel Group to specialize in helping B2B companies measure, manage, and improve customer experience since 2005. His firm works with clients such as AGCO, Navistar, Kuma, and 80% of Caterpillar dealers to enhance profitable and loyal customer relationships. Lynn holds a BA in Political Science from North Carolina State University and an MBA from the University of Virginia. ### Episode Summary: In this engaging episode of The Chris Voss Show, Lynn Daniel, CEO of The Daniel Group, shares insights on how his company focuses on customer experience consulting for B2B companies. He discusses the importance of customer service, the power of referrals, and the impact of emotional satisfaction on customer relationships. Lynn emphasizes the significance of leadership's role in shaping a company's commitment to customer experience and highlights the correlation between employee experience and customer experience for business success. ### Key Takeaways: * The Daniel Group specializes in measuring, managing, and improving customer experience for B2B companies. * Customer satisfaction directly influences referrals, with highly satisfied customers being more likely to refer a company. * Emotional satisfaction plays a crucial role in customer relationships, surpassing rational satisfaction in impact. * Leadership commitment is essential in prioritizing customer experience within a company's strategic goals. * There is a strong connection between employee experience and customer experience, highlighting the need for a positive work environment. ### Notable Quotes: * "One of the things we have learned is emotional satisfaction. How you feel about something is far more powerful by far than any kind of rational satisfaction." * "There's such a strong connection between employee experience and customer experience. Ultimately, that's gonna backfire on you." Don't miss out on the insightful discussion with Lynn Daniel on The Chris Voss Show as he delves into the world of customer experience, leadership, and employee engagement. Tune in to gain valuable insights and stay informed on the latest trends in customer service and business strategy.

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Welcome to the big show. We certainly appreciate it. As always, the Chris Voss Show is a show that loves you, but doesn't judge you, at least not as harshly as your mother-in-law, because she never liked you anyway. But you'll get over it. Refer her and her family and friends to the show, and she'll just learn to appreciate you more.

Maybe not, but she'll appreciate me more. See what I'm up to there? Go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisvoss, linkedin.com, 4chesschrisvoss. Chris Voss is one of the TikTokity and all those crazy places on the internet that we are. And if you want to buy me a coffee, you can go to buymeacoffee.com, 4chesschrisvoss. We have an amazing young man on the show today. He's going to be talking to us about how he built his company, entrepreneurism, and how to be a customer experience expert.

So serve your customers better, damn it. We need more of that in today's age in life. We have Lynn Daniel on the show with us today. He's the CEO of The Daniel Group. We're going to be talking about his insights. He started his company in 1989. His background includes management consulting, corporate planning, and product management positions.

The Daniel Group helps B2B companies measure, manage, and improve customer experience. I was going to say service, but it was behind the camera there. Since 2005, the firm has helped companies such as AGCO, Navistar, Akuma, and 80% of the Caterpillar dealers create more profitable and loyal customer relationships he's been active volunteers serving on the boards of the nc state alumni association wfae and the hornet's nest girl scout girl scout council the hornet's nest girl scout council is that where i'm getting my cookies from let me explain the let me explain the the hornets and bites. Anyway, Lynn is a BA in Political Science

from North Carolina State University and an MBA from the University of Virginia. I tried to do a hornet joke there and it fell. How are you doing? Welcome Michelle, Lynn. I'm doing great, Chris. Thank you so much. Hornet's Nest Girl Scouts. Do I want to buy cookies from those folks? Well, that goes back to the

Hornet's Nest Girl Scouts Council is headquarter to buy cookies from those folks? Well, that goes back to the Hornet's Nest Girl Scout Council is headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina. And during the Revolutionary War, I can't remember the name of the British general who came running through the town and realized that he would not be coming back because there were

mad as hornets there. So that's so you will, if you can come to Charlotte anytime, you will see the hornet symbol all over the place. The basketball teams cost the hornets. Oh, really? So it's like a whole thing. On the cars, you'll see a picture or image of a hornet's nest. You'll see it all over town.

There you go. There you go. Because Girl Scouts are always nice. I always buy their cookies, but if I come across the Hornets Nest Girl Scout cookies, I'll give them whatever money I have in my pocket because I don't want, don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. Leave me alone. I have to stay away from the 10 minutes because I could eat three boxes if I started on them.

Yeah, they're really something. But the other thing I love supporting is entrepreneurism. So anytime those kids, boys or girls are out there in front of stores and stuff, hustling stuff, a lot of times they give them money. You know, the secret is just give them some money and just tell them to keep the cookies.

That's the trick. Because then you're supporting entrepreneurism, you're supporting future entrepreneurs, but you're also saving, you know, the next 50 pounds of weight you'll put on. So there's that. Let's get into it. So give us your dot coms.

Where can people find you on the interwebs? It is www.thedanielgroup.com. There you go. And give us a 30,000 overview of your company and what you do there. Okay. We focus, first of all, exclusively on customer service or customer experience consulting work for B2B companies. So we will do follow-ups by phone, by digital means,

with randomly chosen customers to see how the experience went. Now for us, most all of the clients we work with are selling generally expensive products that are very complex and have a long service tail. Say, for example, you think about a D6 Caterpillar tractor, or you think about a Massey Ferguson tractor or a Fent tractor that's sold by Agco. These things they they are used for many years but they also have a lot of requirements for service in parts a manufacturer may have a fantastic product but if there's not good support for that product the customer is not nearly as likely to come back yeah so that's what we want to do is we want to help them improve that service so that customer keeps coming back and tells other people.

Definitely. Because there's so much competition in the world. I think, for example, Caterpillar used to be the kind of dominant sort of force in the world. And then I think a lot of foreign competition came in, didn't it? Yes. Probably the biggest early competitor to Caterpillar was Komatsu, a Japanese company. And they still are a very formidable competitor. But there are also lots of other brands out there now that are good. And I think part of the interest in improving CX, Chris, has come about because of that very thing.

There's more engineering talent throughout the world. A lot of countries have learned how to make better products. So therefore, the level of competition at the product level has increased dramatically. But what customers want, if they're buying a product like that, they want a really great product at a good price, of course, but they also are looking at things saying, hey, I've got to make this thing work for me for the next five, six, seven, eight years. Who's there to make sure that it works if it needs a part, if it needs service, if it, whatever is needed. That's part of the driver behind the growing interest, I think, in CX among the B2B clients we work with.

There you go. I mean, you've got to stay in touch with them. We'll round back to more of this, but let's talk about your upbringing. People like to hear about the folks we have on the show. How did you grow up? What influenced you? What got you on the road to starting your own company a lot of years ago? And why do you keep doing it already?

Interesting questions, Chris. First of all, I grew up on a small farm in eastern North Carolina. I loved that experience and I'm finding as I've gotten older, I loved it. I love it even more now because I think there's some really good lessons you learn being on a farm. I think I also always wanted to have my own business. I think the reality of trying to be a farmer, I knew that was not something I wanted to do for all kinds of reasons, but just didn't want to do that. It's a tough business. It's a tough, it's a really tough business and you got to have a lot of capital to make it work. So I

always wanted my own business, went to business school, worked with some big companies for a while, did some other kind of consulting work, but in 89, went out on my own to just say, hey, I want to try this. Fortunately, it worked. Then in 2005, when we really started focusing on CX, we started with one Caterpillar dealer in South Carolina. And now, as you in your introduction noted, that we serve 80% of the Caterpillars in North America. Wow. That's pretty good. So that's really how I got here. It's a lot of fun. I love what I do. There you go. I really do love what I do.

I see people change their business for the better. Some of our clients that are really, really making a difference for their customers. There you go. It sounds like I always talk to people when I talk to entrepreneurs, I tell them, find something you love because it can be draining being an entrepreneur. It's hard to deal with it 24-7. You live it. You breathe it. Man, if you don't love it, if you don't have a passion for it, sometimes it can get hard to show up every day.

No matter how successful you are, no matter how much money you make. I made a lot of money and hated every company i own it makes it still makes it hard to go into work today you're making as much in a month as what people make in a year and you're still like oh god i gotta go in there again i mean it it really does make that much of a difference you know i guess the answer to my question you know why you're still doing it is because you love it and it's it's something you really enjoy it's like i visited a client last week in pennsylvania and to hear them talk about how they're using the information that we provide is just phenomenal they talk about what they're seeing change in the way they go about doing their business. And I think it's really, it's a great respect they have for their customers, which they started with.

But I think as they've gotten more feedback, they understand these are some things we need to be able to change or need to change in order to better even serve our customers even better than what we normally do. You know, you used an interesting word there, respect our customers. Do you find that that's lost in today's world? You know, you and I grew up kind of in the same era with the book by Tom Peters, In Search of Excellence, that kind of created this whole customer service revolution in the 80s, I think it was. And a lot of that just seems gone now, like entirely lost. What are your thoughts on that and respecting your customer? Chris, I have some frustration around that myself,

personally, because I get solicitations all the time for some things for our business. And rare is it that i find a salesperson that seems effective at communicating what's in it for me they're just pushing it right they just shove it in your face it's the end of the quarter man we got a hot deal on whatever it is we got a hot deal on and it is we got a hot deal on and i look at and i think why in the heck would i even think about buying that yeah even worse when they when you're they don't even qualify you and so i get i'll get emails from hey do you want to buy steel chris for your podcast i'm like why would i want to buy steel

china for my podcast did you you know what I do? You know, that sort of thing. Yeah, I find that's a frustration I have personally with the way a lot of business is done. The customer is just someone that is viewed as a mind that they can try to mine as much money out of as possible. The reality is the customer is looking for a solution customers are willing to pay for good solutions i mean that's one of the things i've learned they're very willing to pay for good solutions but we're not respecting them enough to listen to them enough to figure out what what in what way can we provide a solution for you. Yeah, yeah.

And that's really the heart, correct me if I'm wrong, what your thoughts are. That's really what an entrepreneur does. An entrepreneur usually goes out and finds that companies aren't servicing some sort of solution, whether it's a service or whether it's a product. And whatever they're servicing isn't good enough, or it could be better. And they've overlooked, you know, improving the widget to make it better. And so that's usually what entrepreneurs do. They come in and they serve the customer. Usually it's a self-serving thing where they go, I can build a better, I can build a better Ziploc bag. I can build a better paperclip. I can build a better, you know,

whatever. And I need it built better for me because an application that I want it for. And then they build it and they're like, Hey, some other people might be interested in this too. And that's the real beauty of it. But I like, I like the, the word you use, the respect for your customers. Cause it, it seems like a lot of that's really lost. I mean, why, why do you think we've broken down so much from, you know, this customer service revolution we used to have? Is online, is being online part of that, the loss of that in-person sales interaction? I think one thing is some of the, and I spent some time as a salesperson, and I learned from some people that were really good.

I'm not sure there is quite as many effective sales opportunities for a young person now as there was in the past. For example, the first company I joined out of business school, if you're going to do anything with the company, you would start out at the bottom of the functional area in which you were interested so i was interested in marketing they said okay we'll give you a sales territory in florida okay that's fine but i learned how to deal with customers even upset customers and these were farmers so they're a a whole other category of upset sometimes.

Oh, yeah. So you learn things about how people react, and it's a really good teaching opportunity. I'm not sure that we have as many of those kinds of opportunities, and I'm also not sure that we have as many effective coaches as we may be used to have hmm you know you just said when I was the sales they just said it's down watch Glenn Gary Glen Ross that scene with the with the always be closing have you ever seen that scene? Yes. Yeah, that's such a great sales thing. That and we watched, I think, I mean, this was in the car business,

so we watched the used car movie with Kurt Russell, I think it was. But not the greatest of sales, the things, but it kind of got to the core. Always be closing. But, yeah, I think a lot of what it is has been lost online. A lot of companies, you know, a lot of tech companies, when they scaled, they made customer service the last thing ever. I saw this with Twitter early on where they didn't care about customer service and there had to be a community actually built of customers to tell other people how to deal with the issues of the product and teach them to use

the product. And there just wasn't, they just didn't care. And a lot of the Silicon Valley companies that have come out, they just, they just don't care about customer service and they, they just kind of put it off and it's never become a real big value. I mean, try reaching anybody at Facebook to help you with anything yet here they, one of the biggest companies in the world. Yeah, yeah. You know, at least with Apple, I think you can walk into an Apple store, but you've got to walk in. It's got to cost you some money. Yeah.

But, you know, companies like, you know, like the cable companies, you know, where you'll spend an hour and a half on hold with them. You know, there's, you can't talk to a person anymore who knows what they're doing. Like they put, I swear to God, they just put, and people are nice, but they just put the, I want to say the dumbest of dumb up front, but they're just people who just don't know anything about the product they're just they're just i don't know push pushing people in directions and answering you know the most inane questions have you tried turning it on and off again you know that sort of thing and it's it's infuriating because you try and a lot of times i know what the problem is and and it's some somewhere up in their software. But their attitude in a lot of these companies is it must be the customers making a mistake first. And it's really irritating because they're like, I have to go through this 20-page process of clearing all the issues that it's probably you before we can talk about, oh, it's probably us. So I think a lot of that has just led to this degradation of customer service. And I guess people don't care. People have rolled over for it.

It's interesting. One thing that I've learned from the work we have done, and this is, you read about it in all kinds of articles about how much customers, how many referrals they give. I think one of the things that companies are not paying enough attention to is the power of a referral. And to cite some specific numbers, we've done some research among the customers that we interview. And in one market, it was ag customers, another was construction equipment customers. But we're finding that a third to 40% of the people we talked to have given a referral in the last six months. We ask them, have you actually referred this dealer, in this case, this dealer to someone else in the last six months.

And depending on the market, 30 to 40% said, yes, we have. However, among that 30 to 40%, only, let me turn it around the other way. Over 90% of those referrals came from customers who gave a nine or a 10 on the likelihood to recommend scale. So it was those customers that are really happy with their service experience and they felt good enough as Fred Reichelt, the developer of MPS talks about to co-brand themselves and actually say, Hey, you need to go see Chris Voss if you want to get this done for it and get it done right. So I think one of the things that marketers are not looking at enough is how much referral activity they have and how can they use it? Because what we're seeing, it's not being utilized much at all right now.

It happens. People know it happens. But it's not being focused on as a strategic marketing issue like I think it should be. Definitely. So it's the 9 or 10 values, the people that value it the most that are most likely to give referrals then, right? Yeah. So that's really interesting to know because honestly giving, I get all these email surveys. I'm sure you do too and people in the audience.

But I get all these email servicings demanding, you know, would you refer a company, blah, blah, blah. And would you, you know, do a reference for us on the app stores are really big on that they go they go would you do a would you do a you know a five-star review over here and they're constantly begging for it and it's actually made me more selective and dial back what i will say is great because a lot of times sometimes i would say something is great and then later get burned and but it's interesting that the people really appreciate your brand or the people that you really want to ask for those referrals and stuff and and listening is really important a lot of these surveys I swear to god because I'm a marketer so I look at how they're designed

and what they're talking about and I'll and i'll see that they're built to just like hone in on a very certain focus and sometimes they're worded to basically just be like just basically just be a hand job to management they're they're kind of designed to either make the employee look bad like did you did you have a great interaction with our employee? Yeah, no, but your employee is not the problem. You're the problem because if you put this employee in an untenable position and they're getting blamed for, you know, your idiot company. And, and so there'll be these kind of, I just call them like jerk off surveys where they're just creating these surveys, I guess, in the boardroom. And they're're like we're going to do a survey so we know that we have great customer service and they have these

narrow surveys that are manipulated to basically when you know they go to the boardroom they're like oh we're doing great here you know maybe one of the worst things about that kind of survey you'll get a score but you don't get any of understanding of why the customer gave you the score in the first place and that's some one of the things we have learned is coupling some some good question design with technology we can help our clients help them understand the customer gave you a six. What did you like about the experience? What could have been better?

Now, as a marketer, you appreciate, you're going to mention the first top two or three things that pop in your mind about what was either good about it or what was not so good about it. And those are the things that are the core things that our clients are starting to focus on because they're trying to understand, okay, they gave me an A, they gave me a seven, they gave me a nine, whatever they gave me, but why did they give me that score? I've got to understand the why behind that score if I'm going to begin to change my customer experience. Yeah, or that I care or respect my customer. Again, going back to respect. I won't mention the brand, but I take my car in to get it serviced at this one particular place. And they're a huge dealership network. And they do a nice job.

But every time I go, I walk out with the service rider. He takes me to the car and says, oh, by the way, Mr. Daniel, if you can't give me a nine or a ten, let me know why. And on the survey that's going to come to you, or would you please write a Google review for me? And I said, thank you. I will consider it. And when I get the survey, I promptly trash it. You know, it's kind of a, I really feel bad about the employees that are part of that,

that have to deal with that from management. Yes. It's an extortion sort of tactic, right? Yes. that from management yes it's it's an extortion sort of tactic right yes and you know i feel like i was at walmart one time and there was like i i didn't notice that there was a very nice lady and she was new and she was checking me out with the checkout counter there she wasn't checking me out i'm not that hot but she was checking me out out and she was kind of new there was someone helping her But she was really nice and friendly and you know, I guess I guess a Walmart you're nice and friendly for the first week or two Anyway, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. They're wonderful people Walmart except for the management who keep putting those self-serve installs in

Hey you people in fact, that's why I ordered Walmart from home But anyway, the I got home and there was like this little note in my bag. And I was like, what the hell is a note in my bag? And it was like, it basically said, hi, I'm a new cashier at the Walmart. Please save me. No, it didn't say that. It said, I'm a new cashier. Can you please go online and rate my service and tell them how good I did?

And I'm like, my God god i hold this woman's future in my hands where i i i don't i feel bad if i don't go i feel extorted bad if i don't go do a review on her and say what how wonderful she is she may not get her job tomorrow right or you know if i if i of course maybe I thought she was bad, I can get her fired. This is not the power that I want to have in my hands as a customer, you know, or the guilt and extortion shame, right? The other thing about that whole scenario is, again, I go back to respect. They don't really respect the customer. They just want you to give them a number. Yeah.

Because, again, they're not digging into the why you feel the way you do. And I underline the word feel because one of the other things we've learned is emotional satisfaction. How you feel about something is far more powerful by far than any kind of rational satisfaction you will get from it and you know honestly if you want to have better customer relationships stop that extortion stuff it's such a painful it's almost as painful as those people now that every story you go to no matter how low the level of service interaction is going to be, they ask for a tip. What do you think about that sort of business going on? I think it's unfortunate. And I think, again, what these companies are trying to do is they're

trying to put some of the compensation responsibility back on customers and not owning up to the fact that maybe they need to pay their employees a little bit more. But I do think it sort of goes a little over the top on occasions. You know, I think you bring up a good point. They flipped the pyramid. So it used to be that in my world, and it still is, in my world, customer service flows from the top the leader on the white horse the man the man who is a CEO or woman who's a CEO

sets the standard for the morality ethics of the corporation on down and so it trickles down to that pyramid but it has to begin at the top and that leadership has to be there that leadership has to care you know I see top CEOs going out and meeting with customers. I see them going out and meeting with the front line. I was watching the CEO of HP, Hewlett Packard, the other day and how he spends his day. And he spends his day literally going around, walking and listening for the most part, meeting with customers. He meets with people at the front line and he listens. He shut ups and listens. He's not like me. He meets with people at the front line. And he listens.

He shut ups and listens. He's not like me who just stands on a soapbox and barks at people. And it's kind of like a daily listening tour that he does, which is really interesting because he's trying to get out of his ivory tower bubble and get on the ground and find out what's going on. But that has to trickle down to the things. And if people work for a company that leads them, that, that puts customer service first, that it's, it's, you know, it's the blood of the company that circulates. They pick up on it and they go, okay, this is what we, you know, there's training, of course, that goes into that. But they pick up on it and they go, this is how our company operates. You know, for a long time, Nordstrom kind of had that crazy reputation where they take tires for return and, you know, you could return almost anything there. There's companies that, you know, have that reputation of doing the right thing.

None of them are cable companies, weirdly. Anyway, so I think you're right. They flipped the pyramid to where they're putting all the onus instead of on the CEO and the management and the leadership of the company on on basically let's let the customer drive it. And that way we don't have to deal with all this customer service stuff. We'll just let the customers in the front line negotiate it. Yep. Unfortunately, I see that a little too often in terms of the top management

not getting as involved as I'd like to see. But then I see some situations where the senior people do get involved and it has an amazing positive impact on the organization. Because one of the things we have also learned is if you don't have that clear definition of where CX fits into your strategy, it's not going to work. And that definition has to come from the senior level people in the company saying, this is one of our top three, four, five priorities. I was meeting with a new CEO of one of our clients, large material handling company. And he said that, you know, we have three priorities here this year, and one of them is CX. We are going to

deliver great customer experience. And he's out talking to people, you know, he's putting pictures on social media about where he's out visiting techs and other people. And my guess is they're going to lay the groundwork. He's going to lay the groundwork with he and his senior team for seeing some remarkable changes and improvements in their CX performance. There you go. That should be awesome. So let's get into what your company does. We want to delve into what I can see on your website here.

Tell us about your company. You've got a lot of employees. You've got a lot of different services you offer. Tell us what you guys offer to your customers. Our primary service is what we call our Experience Connect program, and it's a follow-up program where we do phone, email, text surveys to randomly chosen customers. We have a platform that our clients can access their results so they can see as soon as the survey is completed.

If it's a phone survey, they will see the written results. They'll also hear an audio or can listen to an audio recording. And we work throughout North America. Again, it's B2B focused strictly. We think we know that market pretty well and we want to stay in that market because for us, there's lots of opportunity there. We support right now three languages, French, Spanish, and English. We'll probably be adding Portuguese if things pan out over the next year. But anyway, that's really what we do. We also offer market research project work. So for example, many of our clients, they start working with us on the experience connect side and they want to to get some say more specific

knowledge about a market area a particular issue they won't understand we would do that kind of work and then really the third leg of what we do is training we've just moved into that pretty heavily this past year because our our clients were asking us we want some practical training for our people at the executive level, at the lower management level, and especially at the frontline worker level. Most definitely. Training is really where it's all about. If you train well, you're going to do well. But yeah, I wish they'd get rid of all that. I think I just feel so betrayed and so extorted when the poor employee has to sit there and beg me for, can you give me a good review?

And you're just like, you feel so guilty because you're like, if I don't give him a good review, does Johnny lose his job tomorrow and his kids are going to be on the street? What the fuck? It's like, it's an extortion tactic that's what it really is it's guilt and extortion what a horrible way to run anything the other thing to be said about that i think is they're they're sort of they're are taking advantage i think over the employees for sure yeah but the other thing is there's such a strong connection between employee experience and customer experience ultimately that's going to backfire on you yeah because the employees are going to say hey i know this game and i'm i may participate but let's say my participation is not

going to be honest participation. Yeah, it's going to be interesting. What else do people know about their companies? What sort of clients do you look for or qualify to work with you? Is there a certain size of company they need to have, et cetera, et cetera? Yeah, generally, again, within that B2B space, most of our clients are in the range of small would probably be $600 million in revenue up to, I guess, our largest client right now, OEM. They're about $9, $10 billion in revenue. Wow. But generally, 750, I should say, revenue, 750 million, up to several billion in revenue.

There you go. That's a sweet spot for us. And how can people reach out to you to potentially onboard or inquire to see if you guys are a fit together? Our website, of course, www.thedanielgroup.com. Always give me a call at 704-607-0182 or lindaniel at thedanielgroup.com. There you go. Thank you very much, Lynn, for coming on the show. I'm glad we chalked it up, and hopefully we can spread some shame on companies. Need better customer service, damn it.

Now if we could just get those cable companies on board, that would be great. Thanks, Chris. Yeah. Anytime you're leaving your customers on hold for an hour and a half when you have plenty of money to answer calls, give me a break. Thanks, Lynn, for being on the show. Thanks, Marv, for tuning in. As always, for the show, your family, friends, and relatives, go to goodreads.com, 4chesschrisvoss, linkedin.com, 4chesschrisvoss, chrisvoss1, the TikTok, and all those crazy places on the internet.

Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next time.