The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Discover Real Men’s Underwear: Comfort and Innovation for Every Guy

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Discover Real Men's Underwear: Comfort and Innovation for Every Guy Rmac.store About the Guest(s): Jared Mortensen is the founder and chief designer of Real Men Apparel, the most size-inclusive men's underwear brand. Before transitioning into entrepreneurship, Jared accumulated 20 years of experience in aerospace and spent five years in the pet products industry. Drawing from his background in engineering and passion for innovation, he has revolutionized men's underwear design by introducing the concept of size-inclusive pouch sizing with A, B, C, D options. Episode Summary: In this enlightening episode of The Chris Voss Show, host Chris Voss engages with Jared Mortensen, founder of Real Men Apparel, to explore innovation in men's underwear. With an engineering background and ambition to fill a gap in the market, Jared discusses the unique A, B, C, D pouch sizing system that caters to the diversity of men's needs. The episode offers an insightful look into the challenges and triumphs of launching and growing a successful startup in the apparel industry. As the conversation unfolds, Jared dives into the nuances of launching Real Men Apparel on platforms like Amazon and TikTok, emphasizing the transformative role TikTok played in their business growth. Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the importance of product design and customer feedback in creating products tailored to diverse body types. By addressing overlooked consumer needs, Jared highlights significant issues facing men today—from comfort and support to confidence-boosting designs. This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in innovative business ideas and brand growth strategies. Key Takeaways: Real Men Apparel innovates with a size-inclusive A, B, C, D pouch sizing system, similar to women's bra sizes, offering comfort and support for diverse body types. The launch on TikTok was pivotal for Real Men's growth, providing a direct and engaging platform to interact with customers and boost sales. Many men have unknowingly worn uncomfortable underwear, and Jared aims to destigmatize discussions around men's comfort and body positivity. Real Men Apparel is committed to providing personalized solutions and excellent customer service, ensuring a custom fit without custom prices. The brand aims to expand its product lines, offering more inclusive and varied styles to meet the needs of all men. Notable Quotes: "It's like a comfort intervention to help people get out of that abusive relationship" - Jared Mortenson on traditional men's underwear. "We want to come up with a standard so guys could actually know consistently what they needed to order" - Jared on the A, B, C, D sizing system. "We called it cantilever design, kind of like the way that a lot of roofs and stuff are designed" - Jared on engineering-inspired product design. "It's about balancing both, but providing separation and support" - Jared on the key features of Real Men's products. “We are making adjustments to some of the sizing as well…trying to dial that in” - Jared on evolving design based on customer feedback.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. It's Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com. Oh, my gosh. The Chris Voss Show. That shrill voice means that we are live on the Chris Voss Show. We certainly appreciate having you guys, as always.

Refer to the show to your family, friends, and relatives. Go to Goodreads.com, 4Chats, Chris Voss, LinkedIn.com, 4Chats, Chris Voss, Chris Voss 1, the TikTok, any and all those crazy places on the internet. Today we're going to be talking about a product I'm in love with. And I know there's a disclosure claim on the Chris Voss Show for ftc stuff that says we don't endorse products unless said otherwise in this case we do sincerely above and beyond like i'll walk around and knock on doors for this product and proselyte on sunday saturday morning have you heard about our lord and savior real men underwear opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or the chris faust show some guests of the show

may be advertising on the podcast but it is not an endorsement or review of any kind so we're going to be talking about some of these details and stuff and all that good stuff and i fully endorse the product if you hear otherwise on the chris fa Show Disclaimer. He is the founder and chief designer of Real Men Apparel Company, the most size-inclusive men's underwear brand with A, B, C, D pouch sizes. Jared Mortensen joins us on the show, the founder and chief designer. Welcome to the show. How are you, sir? I am doing amazing.

I really appreciate you having me on here. I'm super, super excited to talk with you. It's super awesome. One, you just got an amazing show. And then two, you love our product. So anybody that does that stuff has got to be a great person. So we've had CEOs, billionaires, White House presidential advisors, Pulitzer Prize winners, some of the most amazing, smartest people in the world. And now we've got underwear CEOs on the show. So we're hitting our stride.

Absolutely. So give us the dot coms. Where can people find out about you on the show. So we're hitting our stride. Absolutely. So give us the dot coms. Where can people find out about you on the interwebs? Our website's rmec.store. But we're really the biggest on Amazon. And then TikTok. So we've been the top men's apparel brand on TikTok. We're probably in the top 20 right now.

I had a bunch of Chinese guys jump in there. But top underwear brand on TikTok. So literally, you go to any social, you search for Real Men Apparel and and we're gonna pop up what's the key or unique feature to real men apparel so this is like the the big thing men's underwear is traditionally designed like dudes or ken dolls right like they don't actually have genitals and so i don't know who designed these things like 50 years ago and like innovation underwear is like neon colors and making the logo bigger right and so they're really designed like you don't have a package and so we came up with an abcd pouch size classification for dudes package so similar to women's bra sizing because guys are different

shapes and sizes women are different shapes and sizes so it's about time guys actually had products actually fit their body shape and size amen brother um you know i've always had a problem with the tidy whitey underwears. I can never wear them. And I've been told by, I've dated a woman or two, maybe three, four, maybe five. And I've been told that I have a lot more going on. And I'm not just talking about the stick. I'm talking about the berries.

And so I was cruising TikTok, like I have been. I have a bit of an addiction. I'm one of those people who sit there for two hours and then wake up and be like, the sun's up? What? You know, I'll watch one more before I go to sleep. And I saw your guys' ad come on and I saw how it really helped. And I was like, and then I've been suffering from a hernia too. So I've got a,

there's some stuff hanging around that area and that needs some support. And all my life I free, I'm going to call it free balling it. All my life I free balled it. So I've worn boxers and there weren't tighty whities. I can't wear tighty whities.

I'm not a person who can cross their legs over like a woman can. You know, there's a lot of guys that can do that. God bless them. But just seeing that makes me cringe and want to curl up into a ball. But it's not physically possible. You know, if you make fun of guys who man-sit or whatever it's called, spread-sitting, man-spreading, whatever it's called,

I actually have to do that. That's not an option. So, you know, and wearing boxes all my life has not been fun. You know, if you go into a cold environment, you know, you get a wind blast up there. It's like, it's not fun. You know, you can just get stuff hanging around, banging around. I have to sleep with a pillow between my legs because shit can get crushed. It's a problem, people.

It's suffrage. And right now people like oh this sounds yeah they're like this is a real horrible thing so i saw you guys's ad and i was like fuck it i've never seen anything like this you guys have these different sizes a b c d depend upon the size of your package and what you need to put in there and then and then they're i guess the nylons are kind of compression based i really love that because it gives me really good support and you know i've never had that with boxers i mean i'm 50 i'm 56 years old when i discovered this i think in january of last year is when i discovered you guys yeah and i got the underwear it gave me the support it gave me the hernia support which is

really important but just give me the support and just to be warm yeah just to be warm for the first time in my life being able to walk around and you know what i gotta tell you it made me feel more secure it made me feel more put together it made me feel i i didn't realize how much of it was fucking with me yeah but it just made me just feel complete like i was just a solid human being and i wasn't some guy walking around with some bunch of crap slapping around a free ball in it and so I loved it I've ordered I've ordered probably about five or six hundred dollars worth of stuff from you so like I said folks I endorse it I'm really a fan of the v-fly stuff because the v-fly I hope you never get rid of that the v-fly acts like a shock absorber for me yeah so I was joking with you before the show that i actually probably need an e but the fact that the the v can kind of act like a shock absorber if you know if you know what i mean

and then of course the easy access if you got to go to the bathroom and stuff like that i've ordered the i love i hate the modals by the way i love the nylon that's just a preference you guys might like the modals but i love the nylon i support. And let's see, I've got the briefs. I've got the long Johns. I've got the short shorts. I've got a bunch of variations. And then what was funny, we were talking about before the show, and I know I'm dominating right here for a second, but what's funny is the nylon is compression. And so I actually feel like I lost some weight because I went from a five and it was really tight on me. And after wearing it for a while, I felt like I lost some of the fat in my butt. And I went down to a four and now I'm between a three and a four.

So that's my experience. Tell me what you think about that, I guess. The thing is, there's a lot of just personal preferences as well, right? So Modal is actually our top selling set. So the Modal is just organic. You know, a lot of people like I want cotton or something like that. Mod's twice as soft as cotton antimicrobial anti-odor but that's kind of what most people are wearing from a you know casual you know everyday wear type type thing because it's soft but modell is just way better than cotton but most people just haven't been

they're just not familiar with it but i prefer the nylon actually nylon mesh so we've launched a couple different nylon mesh products lately so this is actually the newest one is it's a nylon mesh with the V fly. So I'm super excited about, about those. And so that's typically what I'm wearing, but it really comes down to what you need. And so that's what we're trying to do is provide products that have, you know, for different, different feels, right. Whether you like a soft feel, you like a smooth, a smooth feel. And a lot of guys have never tried nylon. Like you talk about it and people are like, I like, what do you wear to work out? I'm like, I wear nylons. I mean, guys are just not familiar with the material, right?

And so the only thought is a lot of dudes, when they think about nylon, it's like pantyhose or something like that, right? And so they really don't realize that, hey, dude, this stuff is really smooth and it's slick and it feels really, really good, right? And so it's like, how do you give products to guys that actually will meet their their needs that that feel good to them and support them and so that's why we have a number of different styles and and different fabrics yeah and i think the v i i bought a few of the ones that it's closed off i'm not sure what you call it but no fly the no fly um i bought a couple of those i liked them but that v gives me a really good shock absorber it seems like i can i don't know and it gives me a little bit of breathing room you know yeah because it's i don't deal with being closed off or compressed in i i think i have issues but that's one well i mean that's

part of the reason that guys sweat so much they really don't realize so there's two ways your body can cool down like either your boys can move up and down or they just sweat right like dude i mean that's seriously so that's why people end up like just going commando free balling all the time because they're like dude i i want i don't want the compression and then i don't want the sweating so their only choice is either you're going to be smashed or you you're going to go with the boxer and and you got rubbing chafing and other types of issues right so that's what we're trying to do is give you the the the benefits of being commando without having the rubbing or the chafing and the other issues. So it's about balancing both, but providing separation and support. So we talk about being

supportive. We don't want our product to be supportive. Most dudes are confusing smashing or compression with support. We want it to be like a cloud holding your package. And so we want to support you but most guys are stuck in an abusive relationship with their underwear they just don't know it so that's why we're here to do a comfort intervention to help people get out of the abusive relationship there you go if you're if you're a man you you've got to check it out if you're a woman get it for your man you'll you'll really appreciate it and it looks great too let's get a little bit into the entrepreneurism of this because that way we don't lose the whole female audience.

What made you start this company? How did you get involved in it? Is this your first startup, et cetera, et cetera? Yeah, so I did 20 years in aerospace, which is totally different. And then I went and worked at a pet products company for about five years. It was private equity backed, and so we put together five different businesses. One of them was an Amazon PurePlay, like an e-commerce PurePlay. So I learned about selling on Amazon from those guys.

And then when we looked to exit, I went to my wife and say, we need to start an apparel company. And she's like, what are you talking about? We know nothing about apparel. Like, but you can't, there's no designs out there that are very good. And she's like, how do we do that? I'm like, I'll just start Googling stuff.

Anyways, I was designing for about a year. I bought thousands of pairs from all over the world trying to find stuff that fit my body. I bought stuff from all over except for Africa. I don't think I bought anything from Africa. But I came up with my design, sent stuff to factories. It was during COVID, so you couldn't go anywhere. And started doing samples back and forth. So we launched in March of 2022 on Amazon.

Had sales our first day and i've just gone from there so we did a million our first 11 months and a half million in our first our second year and then we did about six last year so that's across amazon tiktok and shopify but i think about a third of that was my amex car no i'm just kidding um but no i i bought a lot because i bought like a whole set of fives yeah and i like I like, you know, I don't know, a week's worth or something of fives. And then I tried a few different variations. I tried the seal off and then I just really fell in love with the V. I have the long leggings.

I need to try the mesh. And then, yeah, it's, and then, then I kind of lost weight from, I don't know, I don't know if the pressure from the compression helped just, I don't know, liquidate the fat or something in my ass. But luckily, I don't know if the pressure from the compression helped just, I don't know, liquidate the fat or something in my ass. But luckily, I don't know. They started getting really loose on me, and I had to buy a four. And I haven't been exercising. I mentioned before, you know, I have an eight-sleep bed, and it's cranked to 10 on the heat during winter. And so I usually wake up pretty much sweating.

And so I don't know if between the compression, the heat of my bed, I'm just rubbing that fat maybe, you know, because I was free-balling it before. There was nothing ever giving it friction. So I don't know. Maybe there's a way to lose weight with friction these days. Don't they have those things? They used to have those things that would rub your butt or your back. The vibrator things.

The vibrator machines for the NFL people. That and for Only only fans or something i don't know just only fans call that jokes they're the best so what got you so you you guys have something unique with the abcd thing right is that kind of what you call your innovation yeah so i mean once the the design just the design itself so we've got the the lift the the the shape of the pouch but then the abcd the thing is a lot there are a couple other brands that have some different like pouch external pouches but it's like mega man size and superman size i'm like how do you know what size you are right so we want to

come up with a standard so guys could actually once they figured out their size they know knew consistently what they needed to order and so trying to set a standard in the industry for that sizing, similar to a women's bra, right? Even though women's bras have been around forever, women still buy the wrong cup size and that sort of thing. So it is brand new. And so some guys can get paralyzed. Hey, what size do I buy?

And I say, the average size guy is a B, like about the size of a tennis ball, right? So the average guy, Twig and Berry, is about the size of a tennis ball, right? So the average guy, Twig and Berry is about the size of a tennis ball, total volume, not the shape. And so if you're not sure, just go with the B. Because the thing is a B size pouch is going to give you way more space than the traditional Ames or Fruit of a Loom or whatever. And even if you're on the larger side, a B is going to be better, right? So if you're not sure, start with the B and then literally you just DM us. If you

get a set and it doesn't fit you, you literally just DM us and we will send you the other pouch size. You don't have to do a return. I hate returns. Most dudes hate returns. It sucks. Like the only one that makes money on returns is UPS, right? And so just, we'll just send you the other size. You just donate them to a local homeless organization. That's what we do with most of our returns. We just donate them to a homeless organization. So just donate them and we will send you the other size. Cause we want to make sure you get set up. Sometimes it takes two or three, like back and forth, whether it's style, maybe it's a fabric. So maybe they get the modal set and Hey, they prefer the nylon. Maybe it's a pouch size. We want to help dial a guy into what works for him. And then once they

do, once most, most guys, once they find something that works for them, they'll just, they're habitual, right? They'll just keep ordering the same thing. so we're going to be committed to people if they guys if they're committed to ordering from us we're gonna we're gonna help them find the right size for them yeah i basically have three different sizes i have fives fours and threes i think i even bought a two just to see if i would fit into it or i'm like we'll just plan on getting there aspirational aspirational yeah i mean as long as i mean I'm down to a three now. I don't, you know, I don't know what's going on, but, and I'm not losing, I'm not doing anything to, I am lifting weights and on testosterone. So there's that. Yeah. It shows on your website about 50% of men are a B cup. Yeah. And yeah, this is just women's bras. They

have an A bra, B bra, C and D. And it's pretty amazing. The other thing is I like to is it takes the the berries and it moves them forward and outward and upward yeah and when I when I bragged about this on social media a couple people on Facebook are like oh it just kind of pushes you up makes you look bigger and I'm like that's not really that's not how I mean maybe maybe that's how it works or i don't know what the intent is but for me shit gets crushed between the legs there's the berries are a problem yeah and like i said i have to sleep with a pillow between my legs even in the underwear and you know having that pulled out between my legs and not being between there just makes so much so much happiness and wonderment i mean there's probably sometimes i used to maybe i was walking like a duck half the time or

something i don't know but it just makes so much you know it doesn't look good when i'm when i'm naked walking around my underwear in front of somebody i'm dating yeah sure it looks great uh it looks great in my shorts at the gym and every place else but it kind of looked great before it's just kind of it's hanging downwards so it's just whatever but the support i don't know how to tell you man the support the feeling of it is just so wonderful not just be hanging out there in the wind freezing your ass off all the time well the thing is like a lot of i mean there's a lot of things that we, we put a lot of thought into the design. So this comes from the aerospace background, right? So they're very heavily engineered between the design and the

fabric. Right. And so there's a lot going on that people wouldn't even think about. So initially, if they look at like our pouch, they're like, Holy cow, that looks like really, really weird, right? It comes, it sticks out and, you know, funny, but it's all by design. Right. And so, you know, you talk about the lift, but what but what what's happening here when you put weight in that pouch this material up here you don't feel this part of the pouch up right that material stretches so it's called a cantilever design kind of like the way that a lot of roofs and stuff are designed and so you this is what's providing that support so you put weight in here that stretches and then this will actually rotate down right and so you are getting

lift right but it is rotating down as it has the weight and that and then that scene's going to lock in behind the boys right yeah and so that's what allows us to have a single pouch some some pouch products you know you'll like sneeze you turn sideways you fall out of things because they're just not designed to lock you in so with our pouch the way with our single external pouch when you put the weight in there that seems going to rotate up behind you lock you in so with our pouch the way with our single external pouch when you put the weight in there that seems going to rotate up behind you lock you in and then it's going to actually provide support again it's the difference between support and compression but a lot of guys they hey they've never actually worn anything comfortable so that's the problem they just think

of either you know they got underwear and they just don't think about it until they actually wear something so you would be surprised how many like women and people that we've had buy our sets because they're like, it's a total gag gift, like a white elephant gift. They're like, oh, this will be great. This is like just, yeah, they're going to love this. And it's like a white elephant deal. And then the thing is, the guy that gets it, they try them on. They're like, holy cow, these are amazing.

And so they come back and buy a whole bunch more. So we totally endorse buying these white elephant gifts it's like gag gifts and things it's just like some funny laughing because the thing is once a guy actually tries them on and then they'll wear them for three days and they have to go back to their cks or psds or the whatever and they're like holy cow i didn't realize how uncomfortable i was until i actually wore something that actually fit my body so you bring up a really good point that, that underneath where it kind of meets the base of your berries and, and I guess your legs and that support system, because it's,

it's almost like a cup for me and I can feel it. Sometimes when I put them on, I make sure that I do a little adjusting to make sure I've got that cup under there and having that support is just amazing. So I've always been one of those people that like when I'm sitting, I'll have the worst time. Like I'm constantly moving and adjusting. Sometimes I have to get up and with these, with this underwear, the way it pulls me up and outward, I'm not crushing myself while I'm sitting. And then, you know, my girlfriends used to give me the worst time. They're just like, dude,

why you're always adjusting yourself in public. Like know and i i get up from a chair at dinner on a date and i've got to you know move stuff around you know i'm constantly you know moving stuff in the thing i haven't had to deal with any of that since i got the underwear everything is held in the place and it's all good and i'll give you one other thing too i was a miracle baby. So for three years, my parents tried to have a baby and they couldn't have a baby. You know what the problem was?

My dad's underwear was too tight. That was it. It was crushing and cutting off sperm generation. And a lot of guys actually have that. That's a big thing. If they want to have kids and you know you crush all you know you wear those tidy whities man they're just they're just smashers man yeah it's one that they heat right because literally that's what your body when your body's that's why you're sweating is because the

body's trying to save the swimmers right yeah so i gotta have a sect to me so i don't have to worry about the swimmers nowadays if you just would have wore if you just would have wore the poly type polyester underwear you wouldn't have to worry about it a second that's true there you go tidy white but yeah so you know that heat that you know the heat causes it's killing them and that's why you're sweating so much your body just keeps sweating to try to save the save your your sperm right and so yeah if you if you there's a some a reproductive health standpoint you really shouldn't be wearing any of that stuff that is smashing you. And also polyester, you know, there's a, there's polyester has been linked to male infertility. So the combination between, yeah, a lot of the chemicals used to manufacture polyester,

not so good. So a lot of people lump all synthetics together. Nylon is very different than, than polyester, right? And so you don't have those types of issues with the nylon. That's why we use nylon. And nylon is a cooling material versus polyester's actually a warming material. So between the compression, just the material itself, it's going to actually warm you up. And so you're going to sweat more wearing a polyester.

So we say do not wear any polyester, especially underwear, because it's not good for you. It's not healthy. In the summer, this summer, I was having a hard time converting to – i've been having a hard time this year i haven't converted to summer it took me like all three months to finally get my body to change over to i don't know summer and then it did this i've been suffering the same thing through winter i can't i can't seem to get hydrated enough with with whatchamacallit but i did notice that i had i had one hell of a hot box during summer and so i'm glad you came out with the mesh because i think i'm going to try the mesh is the message nylon or is

it the modal it's a nylon yeah it's an island so i haven't been able to make out make a modal mesh that i like yet yeah the model is nice it's just a little too soft and not quite as supportive as i need with the nylon i can see why a lot of people like it. The breathing probably is better on it, but yeah, I, I'm going to have to try, uh, I'm going to try the mesh, uh, so that I can check that out and the breathing. I got so hot going to the gym. I was having, I was usually burning up at the gym. That's where I was getting overheated. And so I had to buy some gym shorts that would breathe stuff, but I got to try the mesh too, but I got to tell you, i love it i recommend it to everybody i've told people about it it's kind of weird how guys are guys are kind

of skittish about talking about this they are it's like you know i i'm not asking to show you my stuff in the gym or anything like a locker room or not yeah yeah so like you're starting around real things the thing is like so that's part of the mission of our business as well as like to just give guys better one vocabulary and just comfort level talking about their body and not so either dudes don't talk about it, or it's like hyper sexualized, you know, if they do, right. And so so they don't talk to their sons, they don't talk to their doctors, they don't talk to others, you know, about their bodies. And so trying to give a little better language as well like for guys to be more to empower them to be able to to share and talk about this stuff and like hey it's important for you to be comfortable right and you're going to be more comfortable you know confident as you as you do that oh yeah so it's there's a broader a broader mission there but it's like okay we just we try to just use certain terms and phrases to to arm guys with so that they can they can talk about it and just be more open about it.

But it's, I mean, it's not something that we're going to necessarily fix per se. We want to help move that along and help guys feel more comfortable with it. Yeah, I had stitched into the back of the underwear, asked me about my underwear and was walking around the locker room that way and got some weird looks. There's always those guys in the locker room at the gym that are just out there free balling waving stuff around you know they're swinging it like this you know it's always those guys trolling for i don't know what they're up to

but no i i love the underwear man i mean you've literally saved and changed my life like i i'm not even kidding you you changed the quality of my life my daily experience of my life just i and like you say i feel more confident i feel more put together i don't feel like there's a part of me that's on its own little program the whole constantly you know doing the baseball thing where you're adjusting stuff you know yeah you should you should actually get the nba to do it do it or the, what's a baseball association. Then I'll be, yeah. You need to get the NLB in it. So, you know, they don't have to be doing the moving around there, the pitcher on the mound all the time there. I have had, I have had a pitcher from the Braves bought 10 of my jocks. So like literally I was packing orders one day. I'm like, dude, this is shipping to brave stadium. So we don't

have a deal or anything with him, but he bought 10 of the jocks. And so we do have some pro athletes who are in the product, but we don't have any endorsements per se. So I don't want to get out there on the underwear. I mean, it's kind of hard because you have all the Nikes. They have their own underwear brands. And so these guys have sponsorships, and they can't really say they're locked up. And so we can't quite compete with nike none of them yet for professional athletes the other thing i love about you we should really point out is because you guys love fat fuckers like me hey i'm a big

guy i'm 300 pounds yeah and so nine times out of ten when i find an underwear that might work for me it's not made for me it's made for some 20 year old wasted guy that's you know you know 110 pounds or something like that and so the beauty is you guys go all the way up to 5x yeah and then of course the abcd and so that was the first thing i bought was the 5x and when i got them i was like holy shit i can fit in these you know yeah and a lot of underwear and jeans and companies they don't they just say fuck you to anybody who's got, I don't know, waist size over 40 or 36. Yeah. I mean, they go to 1X, 2X maybe.

So like most stores, you're like 2X, small to 2X. And so they just don't care. And so that's where we're trying to, you know, we love to go above that. Right. But as a startup, I mean, I already have 36 sizes. Right. We're already the most size inclusive men's underwear brand in the world. Right. And so from an inventory standpoint, that's a big, it's a big deal to try to manage that we have 1000s of SKUs just because

anytime we launch a new product, we have literally have 36 SKUs. And, you know, when we but of course, when we first launched, we just did a D size because those guys were the most underserved in the market. So we just for the first 18 months, we just sold a D. And so it was the nine or the, the nine way sizes and just the D size. And it wasn't until about 18 months ago, we started launching the AB and, and C, but the thing is like, yeah, a lot of guys on the larger side are just getting hosed. Right. And so we, we charge the same regardless of the size. Right.

So even though an extra small is like this big and you know, the amount of material and things in there, know it's it's more right and it costs us more we we don't think guys should be getting charred or gouged just because they're they have a different different size right and so we're trying to provide a custom fit without the custom price right so that's the goal custom fit without the custom price and so guys can feel comfortable and confident regardless of their shape and size the thing is like a lot of brands are even like close to comparable from either material or a fit, they're like 35 bucks a pair. Right. And so we're also like, we're not cheap. We're not

like a Hanes Walmart. You're going to buy like a 12 pack for five bucks or something like that. Right. They're going to stretch out and not fit after two weeks. But the, you know, so we're comparing, we're competing against guys or selling but 25 to 35 a pair and we're typically about a three pack for 30 bucks depending on the set 30 to 40 for a three pack and we're way more reasonable than anything out there that's comparable from a quality standpoint now some people are like i can i bought something just like that off team who know you didn't right this is designed for a four-year-old right and it's like and it's gonna fall apart apart in three washings right so if you if you want to roll the dice and do and buy something like that off team i guess you you go for it and but you know those are not not the customers we're

necessarily going after people that really care about their fit and their feel and and and so like i've i've had a hard time even working with some of my factories getting the fit right because they look at it they're like that's not how you make underwear i'm like dude that's how you make our underwear and so i'm not so worried about people copying our stuff because they can't even copy it right usually because they don't understand like how a guy's body is really made and and anyway plus some of those chinese might need a like a negative a i don't know what that means so there's a a for the billiard ball you all right let me set up right. So you guys have a quiz thing on your site. You talk about this on the TikTok channel too.

You have an A size is about a billiard ball size of berries. A tennis ball, which is the average US male, is a B. You guys are average. Sounds like you're Trojans too. I have to wear Maxim XLs. A pickleball is the c and then d is softball yeah and then i think i'm volleyball but it seems to work for me so people can go to your website they can see what size fits everything but no i gotta tell

you the comfort level the fact that it pulls it forward to or out of your legs, I'm sitting right now, and it's really comfortable. Normally, they would move underneath between the legs, and you're just like, oh, God, I've got to move around and do all this. Just to be able to sit without that, I didn't really become aware of how much I was adjusting all the time until girlfriends yelled at me or this and it's so nice not to be constantly mucking about playing the the the pitch yeah i mean most guys don't realize how much they're adjusting there oh yeah until they actually until they actually wear something that they don't have to and they're like holy or they and then they have to go back right so when you have that contrast where you try something and then you go back to whatever brand you're wearing and they're like holy cow this is like it's you know it's it's it's not it's not good yeah yeah i think it's cool tell

us about from the business entrepreneurial side what has it been like selling on on tick tock a lot of people you know i had a lot of i've seen a lot of really successful business entrepreneurs launch on and sell stuff on TikTok. Some of it's, you know, the reselling stuff becomes annoying, I think, sometimes. But, you know, for getting the word out for what you've done, I actually thought about starting to affiliate sell them on the thing. I was like, do I want to appear in the or do I want to at least show what I look like? And there's guys doing it on TikTok right now. God bless them. I'm not sure if that's the real thing.

It seems like there's some guys doing like trampoline stuff. I don't understand that. Cody does the tramps. God bless you, son. That's in the internet forever. But what has it like been selling on TikTok? Did you start out there with TikTok and how did that change your world? We started on Amazon three years ago and that's all we were doing. And then it was just a little over a year ago, really when TikTok shop came out,

we were one of the first ones to really jump on there and started live streaming. So it's just the Thanksgiving week last year. And it was crazy. It a little like saved our business because the sales were just absolutely amazing. There wasn't as many people live streaming, actually selling products. But the thing is, the cool thing about TikTok live streaming, and I was doing the live streaming, right? So for the first eight months, I did all the live streams. The thing is, we were able to actually talk to our customer and share with people. Because you can only tell so much of a story on Amazon with an inch, right?

With a picture. And when we talk about comfort, talk about these types of issues. But on TikTok, it's like interactive. Of course, you get a lot of haters coming in there. The coolest thing on TikTok is when you bring somebody in. And we've got mannequins. And you've got this big old pouch and stuff. And they come in there.

And they're making fun of the stuff. And you know, the guys will come in as a hater. Right. And they're just like, why is this under my FYP? This is stupid. And they're just like totally hating on things,

but they come in there, they're in the comments. And, and then, and then you talk a little longer and then they're like, Oh, that actually kind of makes sense. And then a little while longer,

they're like, I just bought a set. They come back on another live and they're like, he's changed my life. And so there's times we'll have 30, 40, 50 return customers in the live stream, like talking about like the product and how amazing it is. And they're answering the questions. Like somebody is like asking something in comments and we've got, we've got customers are answering questions. That's how passionate they are about the, about the product. But the thing is with the live stream, it's just a lot more interactive. It's direct.

Now, when I was live streaming, they're talking to the designer. They're talking to the owner, right? So then it helps people feel a lot more of a connection to the brand versus just some random Chinese brand selling TikTok. It's got some random letters, their name. Like, what is this? And so, like, they actually know who they're talking to, right? And you're talking about real problems that real guys have and and we're trying to help solve that solution not just trying to sell more stuff cheap but trying to sell something that's better and so

that which is like way different than most of the stuff that's on tiktok i mean there's some good stuff on there but as far as something that's innovative and new and so tiktok just absolutely helped us a ton and thing is when we go live we go live on TikTok and sell, a lot of people weren't comfortable buying off TikTok. So then they'd go to Amazon and buy. So we're seeing a 50% to 80% increase in our Amazon branded traffic while we're live on TikTok. So it helped us a ton. And TikTok paid fast. And they had all sorts of subsidies last year, which like stupid crazy so like 95 margins for it's like four months we were selling on there which was awesome right so we loved it yeah and that's how i discovered you guys i was cruising tiktok and i was like what the fuck is this going on and since i know i you know i live with this problem i was like shit that might that might

really help me and i didn't think about my hernia. So if you have an inaugural hernia, integral hernia, whatever it's called, I got from weightlifting, it can really give you some support until you can get the surgery done. And so that was really important. But yeah, you guys give great customer service. I ordered the modals and I didn't like them because they didn't quite give me the support. They feel good, but they didn't give me the support I want. I asked to return them for the other ones. And you guys just gave me this. You guys just wrote it off and said, donate them to somebody. You guys, I've asked you over different things and you guys have given great customer service.

So I really appreciate that. I mean, like you said, the integration of your stuff. How do you feel if TikTok gets shut down? That's been a topic we've been kicking around lately. That will stink. We love TikTok. I mean, just it's a great place for people to connect and and not just get stuck in like a echo chamber that's so you know they because they're pushing stuff based off virality versus versus like followers you're really seeing other stuff like on your feed and so you get exposed to a lot of different different stuff that you wouldn't normally if you're on like IG or YouTube Shorts or like Facebook. And so I really like the fact that you get exposed to a lot of different stuff. And I mean, it's been absolutely amazing for businesses because, you know, it allows smaller people to just jump in.

If you have a good product and you can be engaging on TikTok, it's about it. You know, it's in for, you know, it's entertainment, infotainment. And so it just allows if you're an engaging host, you can just jump on there and sell stuff. And so there's been a lot of stay-at-home moms. It's like, it's changed their lives because they can go and stream and create some content and get in front of millions of people.

And just, so it's been just total changer, game changer for a lot of people around the country. And the thing is, that's where selling is going. If you go into Asia, like 80% of apparel in Asia sold through a live stream, particularly women's apparel. Yeah. So they're about four to five years ahead of the U S and this is not like

you QVC type stuff, right? So that's what a lot of people don't understand, especially big corporate people. They don't understand live streaming, social live streaming and selling on, on there. And so they think of just infomercials and QVC type stuff. It's totally different. It's a lot more interactive. And so that's where social selling, I mean, that's social selling. E-commerce

is going to a social selling type model. It's just the US is a bit behind. Yeah. And we triumph entrepreneurs here. Of course, I've been an entrepreneur since 18. And so that's why I love when people can cross into that realm and do it successfully. And I love TikTok. I think seeing the, you know, there was some people they're making like, you know, they're reselling products and stuff. So they're, you know, and they're selling sometimes some really cheap stuff that's like $5 price-wise in cheapness. And they're like, hey, there's a little drone or something. I don't know. I'm just making stuff up.

And they're not really a company like your company is where they're designing and bringing stuff in from China. They're just someone who's doing affiliate sort of stuff. And I've heard of people making $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, $60,000 a month doing it. And I'm just like, holy shit, what am I doing wrong with it? But no, I love that, like you say, moms and different people can just become overnight entrepreneurs. Yeah, they can jump on there and just partner with us. So we have hundreds of people. We send out 50 to 100 samples a week to different affiliates for TikTok. And so people that want to post content. Now,'s, you know, 10% of those

are really going to drive the biggest amount of sales. And so we have Native Princess, we have Cody Karma, we have a handful of people that are live streaming for us that are affiliates. Cody, Cody, he's the one that was he's just a customer, right? He's the backflip dude with the pants. He had some video on on IG 40 million views. I'm like, Who is this dude? And I'm like, he's wearing our pants. And so I messaged him like, you want some more product and stuff? He's getting like all these, of course he's trying to drive stuff all to his OF, right? Yeah. Oh, he's got an OF? Oh yeah. Yeah. That's what he's doing. But we got him set up on TikTok as an affiliate and he's

doing decent numbers on TikTok with the jocks and our pants. And so, yeah. So I mean, it's crazy. You know, we work with a whole bunch of different our pants and so yeah so i mean it's it's crazy uh you know you know we work with a whole bunch of different different people and so we love working with affiliates guys because why not i would rather make money than amazon or or you know or zuckerberg you know running ads on facebook i'd rather i'd rather have cody have 20 percent than zuck have have 20 percent and he's got only fans he probably has 20 or more i i never i thought about doing it either a channel for you guys or just selling it because i just there's few products that i love this much that i mean it has literally changed my life like the support

the warmth i think i think that was the big thing i was missing is the warmth yeah and you know when you're free balling it or you were living boxers, I think I gave them on boxers. I just wear shorts all the time. Yeah. And it's cold. And they're of a size that they're not crawling back up into my body very well. Yeah.

I suppose if you have a small package, you know, you get cold. Yeah. But they're not going anywhere. So things hurt, but yeah, not having to bang around, sitting, walking, standing, sleeping. I just love them. And it's just my confidence level, my just feeling put together all the time. I just realized how much it was impacting me. And a lot of guys are, you know, we're kind of power through sort of dudes as dudes.

We just go, fuck it. I'm uncomfortable, whatever. Life's uncomfortable for us. And then, you know, sometimes we're cheap. You know, we're like, we'll just buy the tidy whiteys because they're $5 for a pack of four. But these are worth it. These are so worth it. And then another plug I can give, I've been buying since January of last year.

So I've had these for a year now and they're they're holding up they're keeping up they're i haven't thrashed them up like i normally thrash up everything my my sweat my sweat's got a thing too where it eats i don't know what it is like on all my headphones it'll it'll eat the plastic and glue yeah you can see it's hanging off of somewhere headphones here yeah some reason my sweat like eats you can see it's hanging off of some of our headphones here yeah some reason my sweat like eat shit it's like it's like acid like yeah it's like acid like like one of those alien beings basically and it's like any headphones i get my my hair sweat will eat the thing my skin sweat and so they've held up man they haven't raggled or gone bad on me

they're still as firm as they were and and like i say i've just been downsizing as i've been going and i'm really comfortable do you make the so i usually buy the the v uh those are the most i buy the nylon seven inch boxer briefs with a v fly and is that in mesh yet uh yeah so that set that we just launched or where you know we we uh we're working through some stuff right now, and we'll have it out here probably next week or so. So it's a four-pack, seven-inch inseam V-Fly, the initial set. So we're working on some other colors right now. And so that's where we're working at expanding color availability as well as we grow. Because everything's bootstrapped, right?

So my wife and I just took all of our savings from the last deal that we were doing and threw it in there. And so that and a bunch of credit card debt, right? I mean, we've got a million dollars in inventory between all the sizes, right? To be able to make it happen. Because I mean, that's the big thing

is just have enough cash. So it's like people are like, oh, you should do this size and this color. I'm like, dude, every time I launch a size, it's going to take me 40 grand of inventory. 36 variations. Yeah. So it's not just not just oh i just want to do this and that and so we're trying to launch more and so we're rotating more color so we're doing some like one time we'll have one color set and then we'll we'll sunset those and another one and so we're getting some different options for for guys that because there are some people that literally they're buying i have people

that bought every single set of ours and so as i as i launch more colors they just keep they keep buying which is super cool so about 50 of our orders on amazon daily are our return customers right so we're 20 to 30 on tiktok as far as return customers and so and then of course on our shopify more like 70 return customers so so that's the cool thing is having people just keep coming back and and and buying the the product because once they find like i said once they find a product that works for them they will just they're they're really really loyal um yeah i mean i've spent about five or six hundred maybe it may be more than that with all the shipping and stuff but i think it's roughly about five or six hundred that i've spent i've even tried the strapless jock oh it's the nine and seven inch boxers that I like.

I like the really long boxers. The longer one. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why, but I don't know. They just seem to work for, for some reason, the other, the smaller ones will creep up on me. It's probably because I'm a fat. Well, it depends on your thigh. And so that's, that's where a lot of, and so this is one thing, like if something's not fitting a guy, right. We want to have a conversation with him, understand, okay, what is his waist? Where are your glute? What is your thigh? Right. Because there's some things that are just not going to work for battling against the thigh. That thin material is not just going to, it's going to lose the battle against a thigh, depending on the size. So yeah, you need to go with something that's longer than the widest part diameter of your thigh. So you're getting below that area.

So especially guys, if they have a thigh to thigh rubbing issue and so i've lost some weight the last little bit so i used to have more thigh-to-thigh rubbing and so like the longer one was i absolutely need it now i've lost some weight i don't have that issue as much and that's part of that that chafing right people get this this you get skin to skin rubbing you get skin and material rubbing but the chafing is made worse with the sweat right so when dudes are sweating it leaves salt deposits around along your legs and so then it's not like having your it's like sand it's like having sand in your shoes but it's in your pants but it's a lot smaller people don't even think about it because but that salt buildup that's and then you get that skin to skin rubbing and that's what leads to guys chafing so much and so with our

product since you get that separation you're not having as much sweat and because you have that the package protected even if you do sweat you're not going to get that skin to skin rubbing that leads to the chafing with that salt i'll build up i've ordered some of the smaller boxer briefs and they just kind of ride up on me and i don't like it i've got i used to race bmx bikes so i've got these massive legs that yeah yeah that are muscled up and and stuff but you know i can see how somebody else might like them but it's just not my type of thing but yeah you've got the strapless jogs the nine inch briefs the three inch briefs you got all sorts of variations that people can take and participate in i like the leggings i started wearing the leggings this winter i got some weird looks at the gym a little bit i don't i of course wear

shorts over the i was gonna say there are guys there's guys that are just wearing the leggings i'm like that's not what they're designed for but i mean like cody and some of these other guys i mean they're just like they're out there and so i'm like they're like can i wear this in public i'm like god made san francisco maybe a little easier but if you're if you're in kansas where i am you're you might get arrested but yeah they're i would get arrested i would would get arrested. They would come to me at the gym. I'm surprised they haven't come to me at gym already and just gone, dude, your shorts

are too small. But you know, hey, those girls wear those yoga shorts where I can basically see what they ate last year or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I go to a gym that has a lot of college people in it and I don't know, you look at their shorts and you're like, did you paint those on or

what's going on there honey and yeah anyway something about camels so yeah people can check them out I love them I kind of love this I love the compression support and like I said I kind of feel like it's either the friction is or the heat has helped me lose weight burn off fat cells I don't know someone may scientifically saying full of shit, and maybe I am. But I don't know. I mean, I've gone from a five to a four, and now I'm like a three and a four between the two of them. So maybe you're also helping fat loss.

Yeah, yeah. So the compression. And or, yeah, you're getting accustomed to some of the fits. Now we are making, like, that's one of the things about our brand though as we learn we get feedback from just different customers we are making adjustments to some of the sizing as well right so we're tweaking things between you know production run to try to dial that in because you know i'm a large right i'm a you know 30 i bounce around between 33 and 36 inch you know waist and and and so i can design stuff i know what it fits for me me, but somebody that's a 3X or

somebody that's an extra small, it's going to fit different for them. But I mean, sometimes you do have guys that are like an extra small, they're really small waist, but they got a big old glute, big old thighs because they're a rugby player, they're a soccer, BMX, right? And so trying to dial in those body sizes. And so that's one of the goals that we have is to even to expand the size types that we have. So the guys with different body type, cause you have some guys that are a five X, but they got no butt and they got a chicken legs. Right. And so then you've got other guys that have, you know, big, loose, big thighs. And so we, so we want to, we want to be able to provide better fits for all these different guys, right? And so that's part of the goal is to really just continue to expand that.

And that's one of our moats, like from a business standpoint is other brands. I mean, they're lucky to do small to extra large, and we're just like expanding out the sizes. And so we're able to get more of those customers in there to really have just never been able to find something that works really well for them. And so now the majority of our sales are like a medium and large, right? And so in the B size pouch. But as we expand things, we're just going to start spoiling people to where we're going to raise the standard of what guys are expecting from their clothes. And so it's not just right now it's underwear because that's the area that we can really attack, but really how do we do that with other products as well as shirts and pants and, and things just so guys can actually

have products to actually fit them. And so they look good and they feel good and, but do it at a reasonable price, right? So the guys aren't just feeling like they're getting like taken advantage of. Yeah. And the prices are reasonable. I mean, they're definitely worth it I mean like I said I've had mine for a year of the feeling the warmth the support not having to constantly adjust you know I can sit for hours comfortably now you guys go from waist size extra small to fit the bed for whoever that is I wish I was I was like 110 at 20 years old I'm gonna miss that all the way up to 5xl and that's that's why I really loved you guys and I wish I was like 110 at 20 years old. I miss that. All the way up to 5XL.

And that's why I really loved you guys and checked you out because I'm like, holy shit, stuff that can weigh. And the other thing is, too, the supportive, I imagine the modal is the same, but it supports my bowels and my stomach, too. You know, it comes up over the belly button there. And so it helps kind of give my fat belly some support, as it were. I mean, dude, I've lived in shorts most of my life, and people are like, why do you live that way? And I'm like, you know, we have problems. You know, I have to have everything custom made for me. One of my problems with shirts is I can't buy shirts off the rack.

I have to have them adjusted. If I hold my arm out, my arms will stick out two to three inches. Same thing with pants. I always kind of have the pants adjusted so I can live in them. And so my life is hell. But you saved me from it. So I appreciate the feedback. And that's the thing.

There's some people we didn't even think about as we were designing. And so I've had guys reach out to me and, you know, call me and just say, we're so grateful for this product. I have some guys that are double amputees, right? So they have two prosthetics and they're, they're, they're, everything's rubbing on these prosthetics all day long. Right. And so they're like, if it wasn't for the lift from the pouch and separation, like it literally changed their lives, their lives just completely sucked. I'm like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't even design anything for double prosthetic. So there's been guys that are just different situations.

A lot of guys have had different types of surgeries and things. They need ice packs. They need pads. They need other types of things in the pouch. And it's really just helped a ton of guys just be a lot more comfortable and confident as they deal with these other types of issues. Because there are some other products out there that support people when they're having hernias or vasectomies and things like that. They are designed like a medical instrument, right?

They look like it and feel like it. It's like they're able to actually wear products and it's just like their normal underwear. And it's literally helped them just feel way, way different. And so it's awesome when you're able to have that type of impact with people's lives. You didn't even think about it, right? I actually bought some hernia-supporting shit. Most annoying stuff ever. It was chafing and tearing me out.

I don't even know what. It's like Velcro-based. You're like, oh, my God. Anything more we need to know, Jerry, as we go out? Give us your final pitch out for people to check you out. Nordionline.com, all that good stuff. Yeah, so rmac.store, right? And so that's the website

and just i would say if you want to feel different you need to try something different and our product looks weird right and that's fine we understand that it looks weird but if you want something to feel different you got to look a little different and so there's a lot of dudes that their whole they'll like all the decisions that they're making as far as like their clothes or underwear they think about how they're going to look in the gym and they totally make that decision based on what are the guys going to think about when they see me in the gym wearing this? And then, and then even though 99% of guys don't actually change in a gym, but that's, they're stuck in a high school locker room and they just, they're thinking about that, that judgment. And so

they just don't actually try something that's a lot more comfortable. The thing is there's a 90, we have like 98% spousal approval rating as well. So guys look better. You know, there's, there's significant others are generally very complimentary of them just because it's, they're used to wearing and seeing their, their significant other wearing something that's just smashing them. And so there's no pad, there's no underwire, but it's kind of like a pushup bra for your pack. I mean, you just, you look different when you're, when you're wearing it, but you're going to feel different and, but you got to kind of get over that initial, get out of your head and just actually try it. And then you will absolutely love it. And if you don't, we'll just give you

your money. We'll either give you your money back, we'll send you another set. And or I will, if there's a body type issue, I will point you to some other brands that may work better for you. Like I said, I bought stuff from all over the world. I know most of the products out there. Now, if our stuff doesn't work for you, it's probably going to cost you $30, $40 a pair, or you're going to get something custom, right? But we want to help you find something that actually works for your body. But yeah, check us out on rmac.store. That's the best way. We have better deals there because if you buy something from us on Amazon, like Bezos takes half of it. So if you buy something from us for 40 bucks there, Amazon takes 50%. But it's going to ship from the same place, whether you buy it from Amazon or buy it from our website, buy it from

TikTok. It usually ships from an Amazon warehouse. That's where we keep most of our inventory and we just route the orders there. So you're getting prime shipping speeds, whether you buy it from us, buy it TikTok. But we prefer you buy it from our store because then we can support you better. And of course, the margins are better. And so then we'll usually give you discounts, right? You can go sign up on our website and get a discount code 20% to 30% off depending on email or SMS. And we're doing deals and stuff all the time to try to give our loyal customers the best deal because we'd rather have you work directly with you versus on Amazon. Yeah. And I've seen that too.

I've been like, Hey, there's a deal with, there's a, you know, I think I took advantage of some black Friday sales and stuff like that. So, and you bring up a good point now I've never gotten any weird looks in the gym. Most people aren't looking at everybody's crotch in the gym. Yeah. Unless you're, I don't know, you're going to West Hollywood gym maybe. And you know, so no one really gives a shit. You know, I have the guys in the gym at my gym they're busy taking pictures of themselves in the mirror going like this you know so they're not like

sitting there going what are you wearing there buddy you know that would be a little weird but i gotta tell you the girls i catch looks at the gym because i wear short shorts at the gym and i i and part of the reason i have to do is I have to support that hernia, especially when, if I'm lifting. So I've got to make sure everyone's in the right place or else I can make things worse. I'm getting that fixed here soon. But, but even then, like I get looks at the gym from women and if, if a gal you're dating or your girlfriend, or I don't know, I'm not married. The sees you in these things. She's going to like you. She's going to like you. She might, she might, I don't know, give you some attention and visiting or something. She might be like, Oh, I'm going to stay with this guy.

I don't know. So thank you very much for coming on. Give us your.com. So people can find you on the interwebs. R M a C dot store. So our Mac dot store. Yeah. And it even looks good in my normal shorts when I walk around. Even in slacks, it looks great. And I still can't fold my legs over like that, but I don't want to. You don't want to. It's not going to help you do that because there's still something there. Well, thank you very much, Jared, for coming on. Thanks to you for starting the Entrepreneur Journey.

This is the thing we triumph about entrepreneurs is they change people's lives, sometimes in a much bigger way than they even anticipated. You know, most people that start out as entrepreneurs, they find a project and they go, this doesn't work right for me. This could be made better. I've got some ideas. And they kind of solve their own problem.

And then they realize that other people may have those problems. And that's just such the beauty of entrepreneurism that we just love and champion on the show there you go thank you jared for coming on the show thanks for tuning in to the chris voss show underwear twig and berries edition watch for a watch for alternative podcast coming out soon where that's all we talk about is underwear uh thanks for tuning in go to goodreads.com for just chris voss linkedin.com for just chris vris fuss chris fuss one on the tiktokity and all those crazy places on the

internet be good to each other stay safe we'll see you next time