The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Do This, Not That: Career: What to Do (and NOT Do) in 75+ Difficult Workplace Situations by Jenny Foss

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

Do This, Not That: Career: What to Do (and NOT Do) in 75+ Difficult Workplace Situations by Jenny Foss Jobjenny.com A must-have step-by-step guide on what to do (and what NOT to do) in the workplace featuring clear instructions and helpful scripts so you can deal with any unexpected situation at work. How do you deal with a difficult boss who is always unavailable? How should you handle a coworker who never completes their portion of a project on schedule? How can you establish a strong work-life balance when starting a new job? The workplace can be full of challenging situations and no matter how passionate, frustrated, excited, or downright angry you feel, it’s important to stay polite and professional. Whether you struggle with finding the right words or simply aren’t sure how to approach a topic, Do This, Not That: Career is here to help! This book gives you the tools you need to move forward productively so you can learn when to let go and move on. You’ll find more than 75 common workplace issues that cover everything from your first day on the job to your last. For each situation, discover what to do and what to avoid, then learn exactly how to make it happen. Find tips to reframe your thinking, simple scripts to help you figure out what to say, and even advice on your next steps depending on your initial response. Do This, Not That: Career is your one-stop-shop to handling any situation that work throws your way so you can prepare yourself for a successful career.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from the chrisvossshow.com, the chrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the big show, my family and friends. We certainly appreciate you guys being here.

We have an amazing author on the show with us today. We're going to be talking to her and her amazing new book that just came out January 10th, 2023. And the title of the book is Do This, Not That, which is probably the story of my life. Do This, Not That. Career, what to do and not to do in 75 plus difficult workplace situations. Jenny Foss is on the show with us today. She's going to be sharing her amazing breadth

and expansive knowledge. Boy, I'm good with the verbs today. As opposed to other days. Of her amazing new book, and why you should order it up on wherever fine books are sold. But in the meantime, be sure to guilt and shame your family and friends to subscribe to The Chris Voss Show.

Tell them to go to youtube.com for just Chris Voss, goodreads.com for just Chris Voss, and all those places on LinkedIn. The big LinkedIn newsletter is killing it. I don't know if you're aware, but the LinkedIn newsletters were made public, started to make public. You don't have to be connected to me to see the newsletter anymore. So those of you who have been avoiding on LinkedIn can now subscribe to it. And it's been exploding some more ever since they unlocked it, I think on the 13th of February, 2023, for those of you who are watching 10 years from now. So let's get into it. We've got Jenny Foss on the show. Not Voss, but Foss

with an F so that you don't, you know, people always have a hard time with that V and that F. I don't know why. They always want to call me boss. Do they ever want to call you boss, Jenny? Jenny, they get confused. Oh, absolutely. Bossy Fossy. Yes. They go right to the boss thing. And I'm like, well, I kind of am and I'm kind of there. So Jenny Foss, as you can hear, is a job search strategist, long-term recruiter, and the voice behind the internationally recognized career website, let's see, jobjenny.com. I have a camera right in front of that. She is the author of the recently

launched book we aforementioned by Simon & Schuster, and she has several career-related courses available on LinkedIn Learning. So we're going to be talking some LinkedIn here as well. Welcome to the show, Jenny. How are you? Well, I'm doing well. How are you, Chris? I'm doing well, if I can see around the camera that's in the middle of my screen. So give us your plugs, your.coms again, where people can find you on the interwebs and get to know you better. Sure. Yep.

Jobjenny.com is kind of home base. Certainly you can find me on LinkedIn, LinkedIn Learning under Jenny Foss. And also I am at Jobjenny on Twitter. There you go. There you go. So tell us about the book. What motivated you to want to write this book? I had an interesting experience,

which I think a lot of authors don't have, for which I am very grateful. I got a call. Actually, it was an email. A call? I got an email from someone at Simon & Schuster that said, we have this idea for a new series, which it is a part of a series called Do This, Not That. And we are going to create books around various life scenarios among them. Career. life scenarios among them, career. Also on the same day as Do This, Not That career launched,

Do This, Not That dating also launched. I did not get invited to write that one, but I was offered the opportunity to kind of throw my hat in the running as the author of this book. And that I think is because I've been doing what I do as a recruiter, a career coach, a consultant for people at various levels of their careers for a long time. And I have also been a writer for a really long time. So despite the fact that this was a crazy time of my life when they came to me, I mean, honestly, who is ever going to turn down the opportunity to write a book, but more importantly, write a book that I thought was a brilliant idea and something that's going to be helpful for a lot of different people. There you go. And you've been on LinkedIn Learning helping people.

Did that prompt their reach out from them? I think probably. I have been, they call them authors. So I am a course creator for LinkedIn Learning, and I have done probably a dozen or so educational courses around various aspects of job search and career development. Yeah, I'm looking over some of your courses on LinkedIn, and I love LinkedIn Learning, actually. I've done a bunch of their courses, and it's really fun and insightful.

I mean, they're not all that quick and easy, but they're easy to digest is what I'm trying to say. They're easy to take on, and it gets right to the point. There's not a lot of fluff. It's like, okay, here's what you need to do. I'm looking at some of your courses over on LinkedIn. One, you polled almost 2 million learners. Well, job search and career development is kind of universally challenging for people. And so I think even the, well, I know this because I work

with them, even the smartest, the brightest, the highest level professionals, when it comes time to making a move, whether that's a move that you need to make career-wise or you want to make a move, it's challenging. You have a lot of questions. Yeah. It's probably very popular right now, especially with your book, with what's going on with, you know, we're kind of going through a huge layoff period with the big tech that kind of seems to have overhired a little bit during COVID. Yes. Yes. I mean, that is a big aspect of probably who is benefiting from this book so far are those who have unfortunately been a part of this wave of layoffs. Also, Chris, we're looking at a time period in which I want to say on the heels of COVID, but are we ever on the heels of COVID? I don't know. But having gone through the big wave of COVID, I know a lot of people have gotten to that spot where they're really rethinking, is this what I want to do professionally? And if no, what next? And so we have a lot of

career pivoters right now and have over the last year or so. Yeah. I mean, it's a crazy time we're going through right now where you have this kind of looming recession, but we have extraordinary powerful job market. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon if you understand what happened with people who retired early with COVID. And a lot of Gen Xers that basically said, we're retiring early. We're cashing out our 401k and we're going to go have fun with the rest of our lives. We had a few people on the show that talked about it. So it's pretty good.

What got you down this career path? What you got, you started in advising people on what to do with their jobs, their careers. What was kind of some of the proponent behind that? Interestingly, I was a corporate marketing communications leader years ago. And I one day looked at my boss's job and my boss's boss's job and thought, you know, that's not really what I want to be doing. And I happened to have a friend at that time who ran a small recruiting agency. And he was always coming by my office. His recruiting firm worked for my corporation, the corporation I worked for. And he was always coming by my office, his recruiting firm worked for my corporation, the corporation I worked for.

And he was always coming by my office saying, you'd be really good at this. When are you going to come and be a recruiter for us? And so I had a moment in my corporate career where I just thought I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore. And I called him up and I said, all right, what does this entail? And what it entailed was a substantial pay cut, but an opportunity to learn a whole new career path, which really was meaningful for me because I've always really enjoyed, this is going to sound very cliche, but I've always really enjoyed helping people problem solve. And really a lot of what recruiting and career coaching is, is helping people problem solve and get to where they're trying to get. So from there, I started my own recruiting agency and then ultimately founded jobjenny.com, which is more supporting of individuals who are

making career moves versus as a recruiter, you're working on behalf of corporations trying to fill open positions. So it shifted my focus more toward the people who are, are really trying to figure this all out. And LinkedIn is a great resource for them. Uh, we love LinkedIn. I mean, I built a group from zero to 130,000, uh, over there, uh, over the course of years. Uh, you know, you, you have a great following on LinkedIn. So do I, um, I don't really talk about jobs so much, so it doesn't quite stick as much as the job people who talk about jobs. But still, it's such a great resource. It's still a great connection place. I love LinkedIn.

We've been really excited with the newsletter. And now that they've opened, I got the email that they were opening the newsletter to the public. And I was just like, thank you. Oh my God. That's amazing. Yeah. LinkedIn newsletters are, are under utilized, I believe, but extremely, um, worthwhile as a business owner.

I have a LinkedIn, uh, newsletter and I was astonished by how quickly it grew and how engaged people are, if you do it well, and hopefully people feel that we are doing our LinkedIn newsletter well. I don't do anything well, but I do it enough often and badly enough that people go, look at that, it's a car crash. Come on now. That's pretty much how my social media rolls, but no, you're right. It's, it's, it's such a wonderful underappreciated space. I wish LinkedIn would get more love. I've been one of the few people that have loved it over the years. You know, so many social media influencers are like, no, LinkedIn, it's kind of just for jobs. And I'm like, no, it's, it's a, it's a very, it's what I love about it. It's a

very professional platform for the most part. I mean, there's a little bit, it's a very, what I love about it, it's a very professional platform for the most part. For the most part. There's a little bit there, but, you know, it's very different. We used to, back in the day when the big powerhouses were Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn at the time, and they kind of seemed to dominate as the big, kind of the big three. We would call Twitter is like being at the bar, and Facebook is like being at your home, and LinkedIn is like being at the bar and Facebook is like being at your home and LinkedIn is like being in your office. So you're professional there. And then when you're at the bar, you're just a drunken menagerie of mess and doesn't seem like Twitter's changed much.

Then when you're home, you know, you're posting pictures of the kids for grandparents and stuff like that and whatever noise you want to make. So, yeah, it's really good. So let's get into the book. Uh, you, you wrote this to help people, uh, with 75 plus different workplace situations and what to do and what not to do. Uh, give us some tease out. What are, what are some things people are going to find in this book when they order it? What I love about this book is that it's super actionable. So I think a lot of nonfiction books, self-help books, if you will, sometimes they dwell a lot on the theory and what's behind it. And what I've discovered over the years in working with job seekers and people making career pivots is that they're really hungry for actionable tips. What do I do? How do I get unstuck? Or how do I even

put together this plan? And so the book was designed to be incredibly actionable in immediate terms. And it's set up in five main sections. So whether you're looking to land a new job or have a good relationship or deal with your boss or get along with your co-workers or move up to the next level and be the boss. Or then there's a fifth section that's kind of a menagerie of things like, what do you do if your coworker keeps stealing your food out of the... I mean, but there's a lot of more serious topics related to if you have a micromanaging boss or if you have a problem with a client that you can't get through, or you're dealing with a layoff. So the great thing about the book and what really excited

me about it when Simon & Schuster came to me is it's a book that you can be in an immediate situation and be like, I don't know what to do. Grab the book. It's a two page lesson. Every one of the lessons, and there are actually 81 of them, is two pages long and set up in a way that says, do this. Don't do that. Think about this. Here are some things to say, say this, and then what maybe you can do going forward. And so the, and I think we as humans today, we really want very immediate solutions. We are very conditioned to want instant everything. And this book does provide at least a starting point for people who need immediate answers or immediate support, which is, I really liked that about how the, how the book is structured. Yeah. Anytime you're trying to make your life better,

you're especially nowadays with when people are pressed for time and of course they need to get back to watching TikTok videos for hours on end, my mother just discovered TikTok the other day. She, uh, watched her friend of hers center a video. And then she, uh, told me that she spent two hours, uh, sucked into the vortex of, of, uh, TikTok. And, uh, sounds like my teenagers. Yeah. Sounds like me too. I mean, during COVID, I was consuming way too much of it. So you mentioned a great thing. I'm looking at the format of the book and the format's beautiful and it gets right to the point. So you have, you know, here's an example here. You want to apply for a new job, but you aren't 100% of a fit. You've got do this. So you've got a list about five ideas in this particular case. And so you've got some really actionable items like you mentioned there.

And then what I love is on the other side you have don't do this. Like don't do this or that. Here's the bad part. Here's the good part. Don't, you know, so you can separate that. And then you've got some actual items and advice on how to do this, how to say this, what to think about it, perception and how you deal with it. And it's hard for people to navigate the job market. I mean, I come from the old world where, you know, you had a paper resume

and you would come in and, you know, you'd go through, for us you'd go through two or three interviews. But, you know, back in those days, you know, sometimes you'd just interview once and people would hire you for whatever the job was. And then they'd later find out you lied on your resume. But now, I mean...

Not if I wrote it, Chris. That's why you're the professional at this. Now, I was reading I think the other day that some of those Twitter people got laid off and they're coders. Coders are usually in really high demand. I think they kind of got surprised by those Twitter people got laid off and they're coders and coders usually in really high demand. But I think they kind of got surprised by all the tech companies laying off and cutting the cutting some people.

They went they said it took them, I think, two months or a few weeks. And they went through about 40, 60 job interviews. And now with the online stuff, you can't you know, a lot of times the people are removed. So you've got to be able to make the best impression you possibly can and stick out from the pack. You absolutely do. No matter if you're a coder or looking to be a C-level business leader and having worked one-on-one with so many people over the years, which we have, I know that even the highest level, most confident business leaders, when it comes time to figure this out, they're, they're at a loss a lot of times because they haven't done it in many, many years, if ever.

And most people don't like feeling dumb. They don't like feeling like they don't know what they're doing. And sometimes people need an immediate solution, which is if you've been laid off and you don't have a lot of financial cushion, you've got to get to it quickly and get to it in a way that's actually effective. And the great thing about your LinkedIn courses and your book is people can feel empowered right away because when you get laid off or maybe your boss writes you up or you've got one piece on your boss is a micromanager. You know, maybe they piss you off. They say something funny, you know, you can kind of feel like, Hey, I just got punched. And, uh, and, and, you know, you can kind of get a little lost in

that. And so the great thing about having action items is you can get right on board. You talk about, think this, say this, you know, what next, how to deal with this thing. Here's a section, your boss is a micromanager, what to do. Interesting you didn't punch them in the face on the list, but I guess that might be the do not. Do not do that. Don't do that. Do not do that. And you're going to be looking at a different do this, not that scenario.

What happens when you get dragged into HR? What happens when you get arrested? There you go. You and your coworker just don't get along. That sounds like the part that I should be reading. Your team is, I do not play with other people. Your team is understaffed. And here's another one.

You're experiencing burnout. A lot of people have been experiencing burnout in today's world. And like kind of the journey you went on, uh, and people were doing and what they, you know, quote unquote called the great resignation. People were analyzing their life, uh, balance and work balance and going, this is really my passion. Do I really want to do this? And, uh, yeah. Uh, so talk to us a little about that. What do you, what do you, what are you seeing in the job market when you're consulting with people? Are these Gen X people that are taking over the job market?

I think they'll represent 30% by 2030 of the job market. Maybe it's 50. It might be half. I think it's half of the market by 2030. They'll represent half, and, of course, the world's probably going to end. No, I'm just kidding. What are Gen X people thinking and you're seeing in the job markets, I guess? It's beyond just Gen X.

Or Gen Z. Oh, Gen Z. Are we talking about Gen X or Gen Z? Gen Z. It's Friday and the brain went, woohoo, over the weekend. Really, there's really not that much difference in the core themes of what professionals worry about when it comes time to either making a change, navigating a challenging workplace scenario. We all as humans have a lot of overwhelm around this topic. We all have a lot of self-doubt and I'm talking incredible people. We have self-doubt. We're nervous about doing it wrong. And also Chris, one of the challenges is, and I say this knowing full well that I'm in this industry, is there's so much advice out there for people who are

making career changes or navigating workplace situations that it's very hard to know, is this good advice? Who's telling me this advice? What's the basis of their expertise? And should I follow it? And when you're in a place of tension, whether that's because you need a job or you're dealing with a situation at work that's really causing you a lot of stress, you want to just grab at information at help. Google me some immediate help, please. But again, a challenge is there's a lot of disparate and contradictory advice out there, which whether you're Gen Z or Gen X or anywhere in between, it's tough. It's challenging. And I think more people are looking for that thing that's going to fulfill them for a lifetime. I think they're more interested in not just a job anymore.

They're interested in something that, you know, I'm not really passionate about this. You know, one of the things I wrote about in my book and I talk about to people is my first companies, I was just kind of an investor in or a startup person. I love being CEO. I love being a problem solver. I love being an innovator. But I didn't like any of the businesses that I started. I loved them as my babies.

But when it came to their business itself, I didn't love them. I started. I loved them as my babies, but when it came to their business itself, I didn't love them. I wasn't passionate about them. I wasn't passionate about owning a mortgage company. I wasn't passionate about creating a career company. I wasn't passionate about creating other stuff. There wasn't like a love to it. A lot of entrepreneurs think it started with a love for something. Or I think people go into a business they love, like nurses. They care about people, doctors, they care about people. And they're like, Hey, I want to help people. I kind of enjoy making people's lives better, saving lives. You know, they find stuff there. And, uh, so I think more people are maybe on that journey than ever before. Would you agree

with me on that? I would very much agree with you that people are looking for meaning. They're looking for a way to be both present with family and find fulfillment in what they do professionally, which is the age old challenge, I know. But interestingly, have you ever read the book So Good They Can't Ignore You by Cal Newport? No. So Cal Newport is a computer scientist out of Georgetown. And for his PhD dissertation, he studied the mantra, do what you love and the money will follow or follow your passion. And what he studied was, do people who love and the money will follow or follow your passion. And what he studied was do people who report long-term career fulfillment, are they the people who did what

they loved and the money followed? And really fascinating was that he found through his studies that there's often an inverse relationship between those who just decided, oh, I'm just going to follow my passion and those who felt fulfilled long term. So the hypothesis he came up with, which is the basis for the book, is why is that the case? And then if that is the case, who does end up finding the most career fulfillment long term? Should I spoiler it? If you want. I mean, it's not your book, so you won't hear it.

Well, the subtitle of the book is Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love. And really what he's trying to get at is the best way to go about this. And he really changed the way I think and how I coach, too, is thinking about where you have career capital, whether that's education, experience, skills, all of those things. And then thinking about what am I trying to tap into that I don't get in my current vocation? Is it freedom? Is it prestige? Is it money? Is it flexibility?

How can I take all of my career capital and leverage that to get to those things that matter the most to me? You know, career capital, that's kind of an interesting term. Tell us a little bit more about what that is and what that means. it's career capital. That's kind of interesting term. Tell us a little bit more about what that is and what that means. Well, career capital is so, so I have a lot of career capital in, um, I understand staffing and recruitment. I understand kind of human stressors around job search and, and career change and career development. I understand marketing really well because earlier in my career, I was in marketing. I'm a really great writer.

I went to school to be a journalist. So I have the career capital that is the aggregate of my education, my skills, my experiences, actually lends very well to what I do as a coach, what I've done as an author, and what I do over on LinkedIn Learning because I have kind of a bundle of capabilities that allows me to do what I enjoy doing and takes advantage of everything that I've done up until this point. That's kind of the career

capital aspect of it. Yeah. And so people need to invest in their career capital, I guess, and develop it? No, it's more fulfilled in my career? That's an interesting journey to go on. And so by doing that, what you say is maybe open yourself to different possibilities or different job titles or job paths, the career paths that maybe you wouldn't think of? You know, like, you know, if you're good at one thing, you're like, maybe there are some other things I should explore.

Yeah. What maybe sits adjacent to that that I'm not thinking of yet, but still would be a doable pivot. Like if I today right now said, hey, Chris, I want to be a doctor. I have zero career capital in that other than the fact that, you know, I've put band-aids on my kid's skinned knees for 17 years, but I, I don't have any career capital in that. So that would be a crazy attempt on my part, unless I wanted to invest in the time, the energy, the money that it would take to get there. So, so where do I have all this career capital? If tomorrow I wake up and

I don't want to be job, Jenny.com anymore, which I will, um, how could I, what could I pivot into that? That may be the skills and expertise I have would be highly valued while I also move into something that maybe works better for me. There you go. I think people are realizing, it used to be people would take a job, you know, hey, I got to pay some bills and stuff. And I think paying the bills kind of puts a gun to your head for a lot of people when they lose a job and they need to get a new job. And sometimes they might, you know, make mistakes and take something they don't like because they're just trying to rush that. And your book can kind of help people understand more about how to navigate and strategize that a little bit better and get a better mindset to it,

really, I think from the way you've structured the book. Correct. And to be clear, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking a right now job if you have responsibilities and obligations. But the trick is to not get stuck in that if that's not what you really want to do, is to get your bills in order and then still keep steering yourself towards something that's perhaps more meaningful and fulfilling to you. There you go. And, of course, the big thing these days is this remote work or hybrid work or working in the office. Are you finding a lot of the job applicants you're working with or people are seeking new careers and stuff, you find there's still that battle going on for a lot more people want that remote work?

It's a fairly hot, that now they're making decisions that, hey, we really need you to come into the office at least X number of days a week. Some organizations are discovering that their employees through COVID moved and didn't indicate that that was what they were doing. And so they're saying, hey, it's time for us to have you come back certain days a week. And they're running into some snags with that. And yes, for sure. There's a lot of adjustment going on with that right now in the marketplace, for sure.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. I mean, I remember there were some companies, I believe Twitter, if I recall rightly, was one that told all the employees, hey, we're going to, I think Jack said, you can go, we're going to do this forever. If you want to work at home, work at home. And then, of course, they got bought out by Elon Musk. And he's like, no, claw back. We need to run back in the office. And it's kind of interesting

but it's been interesting as the dynamic of the united states has changed where people moved around the country i know a lot of people who moved out of san francisco and la um you know the the price of everything and the quality of life you know spending four hours a day in a car doing uh traffic uh you know it's a whole lot different if you can come home and spend time with the family, if you're not, those four hours are four hours, especially when you're at work for eight hours and then you sleep for eight hours if you're lucky. And people have gotten a taste of that now. So they don't want to give it up. They don't want to give it up. If you as a company have proven that you can be effective as a company, as a team, with either a remote or a hybrid setup, it's hard for professionals, people on those teams, if you say, okay, now it's time to come in every day of the week.

What's the justification for that? And is it a fair justification? What do you see as markets that are hot right now? What are people, is it the remote thing people are looking for the most? Is it any sort of specific sort of, are people looking to be entrepreneurs more or do the career pivots like you did and other people? What do you think is the big thing that is most popular in people's minds right now? There are definitely more people than I've seen

in all the years I've been doing this who are evaluating doing their own thing, whether that's as a consultant or starting something. Certainly more people than ever before are trying to find ways that they can work from anywhere. Location independent is a big thing. And whether that's working remotely for a corporation or again, starting your own thing. Yeah, that's, again, through COVID, a lot of people got used to being able to be anywhere and still work, be at home with their families, be able to throw a load of laundry in halfway through the day, or not have to drive. If you looked at the mileage on my vehicle, and I've been working from either a small office near my home or my home for like 15 years, you would think a 95-year-old grandma

was driving my car because of how few miles I put on my car. I remember the same venue. I started working at home after we dumped off our partners and investors, what, in 2004? And so everyone just kind of joined me. And like Geico loves the, Geico loves the like, how many miles did you drive this year chris like done i don't have a wife and kids so i don't have to go to the elementary school i just have to chase dogs around the house and so they're always shocked they're just like how many how many miles did you drive your car and usually when i when i usually when i travel i just rent a car because then if it breaks down i just throw some of your keys and go have fun with that. And it's fun to drive different cars. Um, but, uh, it's, it's, it, plus they, they take so much abuse on the road,

but it, to me, it's just like, it's being able to work anywhere in the world. Uh, pretty much as long as you have access to wifi at certain times of the day, um, is just wonderful and it's rich. And, you know, people have always talked about this sort of future environment where everyone's kind of a mindset and a course creator and sharing their wealth and knowledge, uh, that they have. And, uh, you know, basically we kind of come to this almost cerebral sort of society, um, that, that, uh, you know, sharing these, these brilliant minds and ideas. I think, uh, COVID kind of helped really bring that to the front faster. I will agree, but you would probably agree with me on this too. It also bubbled up a whole bunch of, hey, I'm going to be an influencer.

I'm going to be a course creator. I'm going to be a thought leader, which is wonderful if you do have rich knowledge and something of value for others that would be incredibly beneficial in helping others thrive and grow and learn and think. But it's a bit of the Wild West out there right now. It's lovely. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, there's some people that you talk to that don't know a clue of what they're doing, but I think that's prevalent in anything.

I remember when I first got 200,000 people on Twitter, I found a course creator one time who was selling a course on how to get to 100 followers on Twitter. I'm like, wait, people are charging for this? And just for 100 people, like what are you going to do with that? But, you know, I mean, Barnum & Bailey said you can sell anything to anybody at this point. So there's always a market for it. What do you see coming forward with 2023? What do you see the future in the job market for 2023 and maybe onward?

Do you want to throw any predictions out there? What do you see the future in the job market for 2023 and maybe onward? You want to throw any predictions out there? Well, I do think we're going to see some topsy-turvy still with tech. Tech, among others, where those organizations that really ramped up through COVID to accommodate the remote workforce and now overstaffed. We're going to see some movement there. Now, I say that, but I also say there's still plenty of opportunity out there. And what frustrates me, or it doesn't really frustrate me, it makes me feel kind of bad, is there are people who hear something like that and think, well, it's hopeless for me that there's all this stuff going on in tech. I'm not going to find a job. There are always jobs. There is always a way.

There is always opportunity. So even if you're in the tech industry or there's a lot of movement in recruitment right now too, because a lot of recruiters were hired to quickly ramp up some of these, um, pockets of industry that grew really fast during COVID and now they're not needed. There's always opportunity. So finding a way to make yourself stand apart, finding a way to really put yourself in the right places for some of those opportunities, just don't get discouraged by the news. Now, we also see a lot of growth in markets that are geared toward what's going on in the world. So healthcare, obviously, we're living longer. We have, and I know I have, aging parents who are needing care, whether that's medical care or wellness care or residential care. I think that that's a sector that's pretty

huge. Go ahead. I think it's going to be that in the future. We've got an aging baby boomers. They're going to need a lot more help. I know my sister's in a care center. It's extraordinarily hard to keep people there. And the temp workers are even almost more awful than some of the workers going on there. They bring these temp workers and they're paying extraordinary amounts of fees. That was my next question for you. You know, I was joking on Facebook the other day. I took a picture of Walmart who's desperately begging.

They have a giant sign out front of my local Walmart saying, we're paying $18 an hour, please work for us. And I was joking about how, you know, two or three years ago, you know, we were kind of, you know, everyone's kind of this political argument online about how, oh, should we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? No, the economy will crash and blah, oh, should we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? No, the economy will crash. And now everywhere I go, where I live, I mean, it's just people desperate for workers. I mean,

I've even gone to restaurants where they've said to me, hey, man, we're having trouble keeping people in here. And the great resignation has kind of created some things like, you know, we had an author on who's in the medical field, and they've talked about how there's a decline in doctors. Not only with COVID, it's driven people off. But just people wanting to go be in that industry because it's a hard industry. You know, you've seen, I think, a couple of the great airlines have said they're not going to require college degrees for people to go work for them anymore. So you're just kind of seeing this upending of college degrees and stuff. Does your book help people navigate the money part of getting paid and negotiating that?

Yes. There are lessons specific to that about if you wanted to ask for a raise or ask for a promotion. And that is a challenging conversation for most people. So it certainly gives the reader some ideas around how do I put my best foot forward or maximize the odds that if I go to my manager, if I go to HR and ask for this, that it's going to be a yes. Absolutely. It's been interesting, too. They've to be a yes. Absolutely. It's been interesting too. They've had to start passing these laws. I didn't understand this was going in the marketplace.

New York State, I believe, passed a law where you have to disclose the earnings. And I started seeing this on LinkedIn. California too. Yeah. I started seeing this on LinkedIn where people are like, hey, this is really BS that we go through four to five interviews and all this waste of time and you're not even going to pay me what I want. And I remember back to the old days, they would tell you what they were going to pay you. But I don't work. I worked for people since I was young. And I guess that became a thing in the market to the point it

became pretty toxic where people were disclosing it. But that's a new employee empowerment sort of thing that's going on as well. It's a great step in the right direction in terms of the transparency is designed to lead to salary equity for people of color, for women, for people with disabilities. And yes, New York City, the state of California in January universally going toward salary transparency, which is really nice. However, it's a bit crazy out there right now. The salary range is posted for some of the jobs that you see. It's like $50,000 to like 50,000 to 450,000. Oh, really? Yes.

Yes. Sounds like some gaming going on. There is some gaming going on. So we're going to go through an adjustment period where organizations who have long, I'll just say it, they've held the cards in terms of the advantage in the negotiation and they no longer have it. Some are responding in ways that are not super helpful. There you go. I like how you frame that.

You know, it is interesting to me. You know, for the first time in probably 40 years or maybe longer, there's empowerment now with the employees. And I think from what I understand of the math, you can tell me I'm wrong years from now if I'm wrong, but I wanted to bet on it. But from what I understand of the math, I mean, like I said before, a lot of the baby boomers left the marketplace early.

A lot of the Gen Xers exited early. And the Gen Zers, they kind of want a certain fulfillment with their jobs and they want to feel like it's more purpose-driven, I think. And there's just an empowerment going on with the employees now. And so books like yours can help people empower them better, give them the knowledge and strength they need, tools they need, have a nice, it's a nice reference sort of type book where, like you say, you can go right to the chapter and go, my boss just said this to me today, what do I do with that?

Exactly. Yeah, and then you don't resort to punching them in the face, which you should never do. You should never do that. You should never do that, no. Never do that. You can honestly get this book and read it cover to cover if that's how you read a book. A lot of people do. But yes, just as you said, it's a nice reference. You can have it on your desk. You can be like, oh my gosh,

I'm stuck here. I don't know what to do. And you get a quick two-page lesson that, at the very least, it gives you some immediate ideas on how to proceed and how not to proceed. And how not to do it. You know, I'm going to write a book on do this, don't do that on the life of Chris Voss and what to do as Chris Voss. And it's just going to be like, it's going to be like one page. It's going to say, when you wake up, don't do whatever you think is a good idea and just shut up and do your work. You're doing all right, Chris.

I don't know. I suppose so. It seems to work for me, whether it's working or not. I don't know if it's, if it's on the rest of it. I don't know. There's a joke there somewhere.

Anyway, Jenny, thank you very much for coming to the show. It's been really insightful to have you on. Great talking to you. People should grab your book. Give us your plugs where you want people to find you on the interwebs so they get to know you better. Yep, jobjenny.com.

You can find me on LinkedIn and in the LinkedIn Learning Library of Courses. Certainly, the book is available at all the majors, online and retailers. And on Twitter, I am at JubJenny. There you go. And order the book, folks. Wherever fine books are sold. Just came out January 10th, 2023. Do this,

not that. Career, what to do and not do in 75 plus difficult workplace situations. You can order wherever fine books are sold. Thanks for tuning in. Be good to each other. Stay safe and we'll see you guys next time.

And that should have us out.