The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Dr. Matt Discusses Neurodivergence, Parenting, and Embracing ADHD

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

Dr. Matt Discusses Neurodivergence, Parenting, and Embracing ADHD Theneurodiversitycollective.com Show Notes ​About the Guest(s): Dr. Matthew Zakreski is a clinical psychologist and mental health expert specializing in neurodivergence. He is known as Dr. Matt and has a Doctor of Psychology (PsyD) degree from Widener University's Institute for Graduate Clinical Psychology. Dr. Matt is a high-energy and creative speaker who has given over 400 talks worldwide on supporting neurodivergent individuals. He is a consultant, professor, author, and researcher, and is the co-founder of the Neurodiversity Collective, which provides therapy, IQ testing, coaching, and consulting services. Episode Summary: In this episode, host Chris Voss interviews Dr. Dr. Matthew Zakreski, a clinical psychologist and expert in neurodivergence. They discuss the importance of understanding and supporting individuals with neurodivergent brains, such as ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and giftedness. Dr. Matt shares insights into the unique strengths and challenges of neurodivergent individuals and emphasizes the need for inclusive environments in schools and workplaces. He also highlights the value of meeting people where they are and providing support tailored to their specific needs. The conversation explores the impact of biases and prejudices on neurodivergent individuals and offers strategies for creating a more inclusive and supportive society. Key topics discussed in this episode include: The concept of neurodivergence and the different types of brains The challenges faced by neurodivergent individuals and the importance of understanding and support The role of parents in understanding and advocating for their neurodivergent children The benefits of embracing neurodiversity in the workplace and creating inclusive environments The impact of biases and prejudices on neurodivergent individuals and the need for greater awareness and acceptance Key Takeaways: Neurodivergent individuals have unique strengths and challenges that should be recognized and supported. Creating inclusive environments in schools and workplaces is essential for the success and well-being of neurodivergent individuals. Meeting people where they are and providing tailored support can help neurodivergent individuals thrive. Biases and prejudices can hinder the acceptance and understanding of neurodivergent individuals, and it is important to challenge and overcome these biases. Embracing neurodiversity can lead to greater innovation, productivity, and success in various domains. Notable Quotes: "There's a lot of value in knowing that you're a zebra. You're not a weird horse." - Dr. Matthew Zakreski "Neurodivergence is not an excuse, but it is a context." - Dr. Matthew Zakreski "When you put play to people's strengths, it becomes a rising tide that lifts all boats." - Dr. Matthew Zakreski

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show. The preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready. Get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times, because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from the chrisvossshow.com. Welcome to the show, my family and friends. We certainly appreciate you guys. Thanks for tuning in, as always.

We just did our numbers where we pulled the last four years of the Chris Foss Show. And we've increased our audience by over 1,405%. That's 1,405%. And if you don't think we're not going to brag the hell about that until the end of time, or at least the numbers go higher you're not even kidding yourself so we made a major change to the format in what was it uh 2000 february and march of 2000 with covid we decided we're going to change the world quit talking about silicon valley crap all the time and ceo interviews and of big companies and open the scope up to everyone so that we can educate the world and make the world a better place and that's what we have now

the the ceos the billionaires the the White House presidential advisors, the astronauts, the people who write amazing books, stories, Pulitzer Prize winners, they bring to you their stories of life, their cathartic moments, their lessons of life. Because as we always say on the Chris Foss Show, the owner's manual to life are life's stories. I actually said it a different way, but you know, we decided to reverse it this time. So anyway, we always have the most amazing people in minds here on the show. And I learned so much from the show. And if you don't, then you go back and listen to the damn shows because Jesus Christ, we have some amazing people on here. And we have one again today,

and it's not me as always. I'm just the idiot with the mic. I think that's what we're going to rename the podcast, an idiot with a mic with really amazing guest. Matthew Zekerski is on the show with us today. He is a doctor of neurodivergence and mental health expert. We're going to be talking to him about his insights and how we can learn from some of the things that he does. He is referred to as Dr. Matt. He's a psych doctor. I believe that's what PSD means, PSYD means. Is that what that means, Matt? Clinical psychologist, yeah. Clinical psychologist. There you go. I'm not up on the lingo since I'm usually on the other side of the room of psychologists rather than being in their chair. He is a high energy, creative clinical psychologist and a professional

speaker who utilizes an eclectic approach to meet the specific needs of his neurodivergent clients. He is proud to serve as the gifted community as a consultant and professor and an author and researcher. He's spoken over 400 times about all over the world about supporting neurodivergent people. He is also a frequent podcast guest. He can be found on many different platforms. He graduated from Widener University's Institute for Graduate Clinical Psychology in 2016. He is a co-founder of the Neurodiversity Collective, which provides therapy, IQ testing, coaching, and consulting. Clearly, I need some of that. Welcome to the show, Matt.

How are you? I'm great. I am never the second most energetic person in the room, so this is new for me. I'm like, let's go. I'm going through a wall for you, Chris Voss. There you go. Let's do it. Let's go conquer the world and the universe.

We'll kick over some stuff. But first we'll do it on the show. But our audience loves guests that have energy. So thank you for coming and bringing it. Give us a.com. Where can people find you on the interwebs? So if you want me to come and speak to your organization, whether it's a school or a business or a community organization, Boy Scout troop, whatever it might be, that's drmatzakreski.com.

If you hear what we have to talk about today, like, ah, yes, that's the kind of therapy I need. Then the therapy practice is the neurodiversitycollective.com. I try to keep them separate because Dr. Matt is the brand, but you only get me if you want me to do a speaking thing. If you want therapy, I have a whole team of awesome people that you could talk to. There you go. There you go. So let's lay a foundation on some terms and stuff. And we got your.com, right?

Where people could pull up the.com. I think we did, right? Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I always make sure of that because the.coms are important. You got to get the plugs. It's all about the plugs, people. So go ahead. What? Yeah. There you go. I always make sure of that because the dot-coms are important. You got to get the plugs. It's all about the plugs, people.

Go ahead. Yeah. There you go. So tell us, let's lay a foundation of what neurodivergence means and what that's up to and how you work in that sphere. So there are two, broadly speaking, there are two different kinds of brains in the world. There are neurotypical brains. About 70% of people are neurotypical. Their brains are largely within what we would expect a brain to do for your age and what the world depends on you to do.

There you go. And then there's the people on Facebook and Twitter. Is that the other brains? And then, yes, you read the YouTube comments section and you go, oh, oh, oh, God. There's the piece people on Facebook and Twitter. So the other brains. And then yes, you read the YouTube comments section. You go, Oh, Oh,

Oh God, the other brains. No, I'm just kidding. That's when we get into personality disorders. That's a whole separate podcast episode. So, and then people with different brains are the remaining 30%.

And that's ADHD, autism, OCD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, giftedness, which is my primary area of expertise. But the more we learn about this, the more we is, oh my gosh, like, I can snapshot a picture of your brain and be like, check this out. That's what an ADHD brain looks like. And people read it and they go, oh, because you still talk to people. You still hear people who are like, yeah, I'm ADHD.

I mean, that's just bad parenting. And I'm like, oh, I want to scream and throw this lovely cup of water you've given me across the room, but I'm just going to sit here nicely until you stop talking so that I can talk. There you go. I'm glad to know I'm in the exceptional

higher class of the 30% because no one wants to be with everyone else. And, and I'm an ADHD client and also, I don't know, there's a joke there somewhere about hair, but now does that include people on the spectrum, autism,

savants, things like that? Sure does. You know, there you go. There you go. The, so I'm glad to be in the company of,

of everyone on that 30%. I've, I have what, you know there you go there you go the so i'm glad to be in the company of of everyone on that 30 i've i have what you know what they normally term the ceo disease the adhd and while it's can be a curse it's made me a lot of goddamn money so let's go right absolutely yep yep it's unlike my first 10 marriages that were just a curse. No, I'm just kidding, people. It's a joke. I've never been married. So give us a 30,000 overview of the work that you do and kind of what you're engaged in and what you're trying to accomplish out there in the world.

So it all started with therapy, right? I mean, so I was seeing a lot of gifted kids, a lot of what we call twice exceptional kids, kids with a gifted IQ and some other learning difference, another neurodivergence, ADHD, autism, that sort of thing. And the more I did that, the more I started going to conferences to learn more. And I was in these conferences and I kept thinking to myself, I could do that. I could probably do that better than them. So I started putting my words out there and people started responding to it. And that turned into, oh, I'll do some breakout sessions to, oh, you want me to come talk to your school to,

oh, you want me to be the featured speaker at your conference to, oh, you're flying me to Europe to give six talks across a four day international event. I could do that. I could do that. Words am good I am could do that. And yes, it's still a little bit terrifying and a little bit surreal. But the more I do it, the more people want me to do it. And I realize there are a lot of people out there who are carrying around these neurodivergent brains who don't know oh and there's a one of my favorite things to say is there's a lot of value in knowing that you're a zebra you're not a weird horse there you go

you're not a weird horse a lot of people walking out there going like why is it that all the other horses are doing this thing and i don't do that it might just be because you're a zebra there's a i think it was carl junger was one of those one of those psychologists dudes you probably know who it is but they made a statement that the only measure of sanity is that the fact that the largest group of people who claim to have the most sanity and the smaller group must be insane thereby by population is the only measurement of sanity. But it doesn't mean we're all sane. Do you know who that was? I knocked it big through. It's in there somewhere.

I think it was Carl Jung or one of those guys who had a mother issue or something. But, you know, basically it's, we, I, you know, I grew up in society, you know, being called the dumb horse because of, because the way I was, a lot of boys have trouble in school now because there's hardly any men in school. And so they're being called dysfunctional girls and treated as dysfunctional girls. We've got a lot of psychologists on that have talked about that and written books. There's a lot of, you know, up until a lot of time, people were thought of as being on the, they were on the spectrum or autism were thought

as mentally less or viewed as mentally less. And so it's great that we're having these discussions. I mean, most of the servants, the most smartest people in the world are on the spectrum, are autistic and they're, they're smart, you know, they can run circles around all of us so Matthew how did you give us a little bit of background on you and

your words how did you grow up or are you part of the 30 percent or are you in the 70? No I sure am I mean and like I think a lot of people in my field this work is personal and professional right I mean I grew up as a gifted kid in jersey in the 90s and people kept using the word einstein they kept using the word harvard and all i felt from that was pressure gosh i guess i have to be perfect or the world will end and you know and then i got diagnosed with adhd in high school which frankly explained a lot because I was getting a lot from my teachers. If you're so smart, how come you can't dot, dot, dot? And I'm like, everyone tells me all the time how smart I am,

so there must be something wrong with me. Yeah, you feel that, huh? Yeah. In the absence of information, we create our own narratives, and those narratives tend to be catastrophic. Yeah. And we used to have this world that was really black and white. You probably say that in a lot of ways, actually, if you look back at the 50s and 60s.

But, I mean, you know, it used to be probably a good example of is the IBM men of the 50s, where everyone had to show up in black suit, black tie shoes black hat you know and you couldn't you couldn't you couldn't bring any colors or anything like that you you had to everyone had to fit the same form and i always have this picture in my mind of the of the pink floyd's music video we don't need no education or i think it's called something else but basically you know these these children are being walked through british schools and this lockstep machinery you know one size fits all punch out and i think a lot of us in the in the crowd of being in that 30 spectrum you know we got treated like the what you say the stupid pony or the stupid horse through school and and it definitely impacts

your self-esteem your ability to want to learn or care. Absolutely. And then because if you're not framing this through the lens of you have a different brain, then it defaults to it's either your fault as the kid or it's your parents' fault. It's like a teacher isn't going to say, clearly, I can't teach you. And the administrators aren't going to say, clearly, our system is broken and can't fix kids like this so it's a you know it's a real problem because the target defaulted to the kid and that's too much for any kid to carry you know i mean i say this all the time neurodivergence is not an excuse right i'm not gonna let you say i can't get a good job because

i have adhd no it's context right there's there's a reason so many of us end up in person facing gigs like bartending or being a barista or hosting a podcast or being a professional speaker right you don't want your adhd or to be your accountant. I mean, you know, my accountant does definitely does not have ADHD and he's really good job. You know, I'm not sure if I want to go on a bachelor party with him, but he's, he's stable and secure and very consistent. And I want my lawyer, my accountant and my surgeons to have that personality. You don't want your surgeon doing the surgery on your heart. And he's like, oh, was I doing something?

Right. And then we're, you know, what's this hard thing? You know, my, one of my favorite theater professors in high school, when I told her that I had gotten into improv and standup comedy and ultimately professional speaking, she was like, of course. She said, you can say other people's words, but you are always best saying your own words. And I mean, if that's not the ADHD brain in function, I don't know what could be. It's a great explanation. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. And so what you're finding in going out in the world from your description of you started speaking and doing all this thing, you're finding that the world is starting to become maybe a little more inclusive and trying to understand people and develop their strengths and utilize them like that. What made you want to get into psychiatry? Was it from your experience of growing up with ADHD and people not understand you and maybe you were like I need want to understand myself or did you have a different purpose I mean it's definitely that's a big piece of it and you know I think you want to be the adult you wish you had as a kid there you go and and it's funny because I don't actually live that both of my parents were psychologists as well what to look for and they supported me really well but i looked around and saw kids who didn't have what i had yeah myself all right

there's a lot of kids out there who need somebody like me and you know it allows me to get in there and educate the parents and educate the schools and educate the communities and also help the kid because you know what's smart doesn't mean your life is easy yeah and that's a that's the thing people don't understand in fact it's harder because as george carlin said you know think how dumb the average person is and realize 50 of the people are stupider than that so if you're really smart it's hard because you have to deal with the other 50 of people who are dumber than the average but none of those people listen this show it's only 50 they do yeah this is this is a very discerning it is driven off the stupid people for 16 years and it seems to be working. So there you go.

But so what was it like growing up with two psychologists? Parents, was it harder? Did they understand your ADHD? Yes and no. I mean, there's the hardest thing about living with ADHD is everyone can understand that it means sustaining attention is hard. And everyone means that disorganization and time blindness are parts of that experience. But now we understand a lot more of the emotionality of that. And, and how there's a phenomenon called rejection sensitivity dysphoria or RSD.

Oh, really? And the idea is that ADHD kids get somewhere around 17 times more negative feedback than their neurotypical peers. So not quite your podcast numbers, but still pretty impressive. Yeah. And so your brain,

which is wired to look for threat in your environment, Yeah, we're getting there. So the ADHD brain and really neurodivergent brains in general, though this tends to show up mostly in ADHD, is this idea of I'm looking in the environment for people to be upset with me and then I'll get upset at the idea that they're upset with me, even if they're not, right? So it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because if you're stomping around being like, why are you mad at me? The person you're talking to is like, dude, I'm not mad at you. You're like, yeah, you're acting like you're mad at're talking to i'm dude i'm not mad at you like yeah you're acting you're mad at me you're like i'm not mad at you dude so your voice is changing now i'm mad at you because you keep saying you're mad at me and i said no they're actually mad at you huh and does the does the scanning help in you know

one of the things about hd is we're really good at strategy. Actually, I should just speak for myself. We're really good at strategy and mapping. Is part of the mapping of looking for that? Part of, I don't know, how does some of those things transform into the CO disease that makes us so great at business? It's all about how much scaffolding you can put around you to manage stuff because if you've got teachers and coaches and therapists and friends who get that they're gonna be like no no dude you're gonna spin out you're fine and you're like okay like i just need someone to tell me i'm fine cool just like the ce CEO doesn't worry about whether the janitor is mopping the baseboards

in the women's bathroom in the first floor. The CEO is worried about the high level, big picture, 30,000 foot view things. That's what plays to the ADHD strength, right? I'm an idea guy. I was in grad school. I was our student body president. And my wife was our, whom I met in grad school, was our vice president. And when we did awards at our, whom I met in grad school was our vice president. And when we did awards at the end of the year, I gave her the neck award because yes, I'm the head of the organization, but the head can't survive the neck. You know, it's like, I don't know. I was like, guys, I have these great ideas and we're going to do these things that are going to be awesome. And then my wife would put the paperwork down and like, and look, I filled out

the form so we can actually do his ideas. I'm like you that's why this that's why the adhd or can be the ceo yes but you need people who are going to you need a good team around you you need those accountant types that can be the stable tell me about it right i was i was really lucky and how i fell into this me and my i you know me and my friend had been friends since we were 12 in junior high and i was always the adh idea guy and he was a very simple dude who who he could be the accountant sort of person and he could do the mundane the the the repetitive tasks that make me mental, but I could be the visionary. And after somewhere in our 20, about 10 years, probably after we met in around 22, I think I was, or I don't know, he might've been 22. Anyway, I don't know why I'm going on about this,

but somewhere around 22, we started our first company together. I'd had a few companies before that, but this is the first real one that was the home runner. And we started an empire of companies that ran for 13 years with him and I together and further from me. And we had a great team because we'd been friends forever. We could trust each other beyond a shadow of a doubt. And then I could be the visionary, the CEO and come up with all the crazy ideas and build models and stuff like that. And he could be the one who could apply it.

And so I never really given thought to the setup of it. Should this be a business setup that should work? It just kind of happened. And, and, and so you're right, that whole neck part and, and having the, you know, the grounding, if you will, or, or the people who can take those ideas and make them work to the 70% of the weird people who aren't in the exceptional class. Love it. Love it.

You can do it. So, but it's great that these, you know, we've had a lot of friends that are neurodivergent that have been on multiple times. I've got a lot of friends who are artistic and they're out sharing the message of, you know, the spectrum and, you know, the importance of these people. And, you know, I learned a long time ago in my companies very early on that I was not the purveyor

of every greatest idea in the world. In fact, some ideas are quite painfully expensive in losses. And thankfully I hit more home runs than I hit whiffs. You know, I had to learn that there's ideas that come from everywhere. And there's no human being that doesn't have the ability, I think, to come up with great ideas if they're given the opportunities. And you just never know. I mean, the head of Google right now grew up on a dirt floor in India. He was born and raised that way.

Dirt poor. Steve Jobs was an immigrant, a family of immigrants who came from, I think it was Iran or Iraq or one of those places, Pakistan. It came from somewhere. There's no corner on great ideas and to throw people away or dismiss them or be prejudiced against them because they're not like us. And you're just like, you watch the Kardashians all day long. Give me a break. Right. Miss me with that, please, would you?

Yeah, we lost the Kardashian crowd a long time ago. Yeah. Oh, no. So sad. And that's sort of the next step in my professional evolution is doing more stuff with companies and organizations. Because we have this pervasive idea that kids, and I'm going to use giant air quotes here, outgrow their neurodivergence when they turn 18. But that's convenient for the system because that's when we have to stop supporting them so you know i mean i have neurodivergent kids who are navigating college who are doing it by hooks and crooks and lots of caffeine it's one of those things like those kids are growing up

graduating through the schools getting master's degrees getting advanced degrees getting jobs starting families with the same brain. So we need to find parenting strategies that work for ADHDers. We need to find dating strategies that work for autistic people. We need to find ways to help dyslexic people at work. And you switch around the neurodivergent pieces like we're playing three-card Monty, but the idea is still the same. So now I can go into an organization say listen you're an

organization of x number of people which means by the numbers you have y number of neurodivergent people here on staff you don't create an environment that is inclusive to that those people are going to suffer in silence and you're going to follow them because you're like, you know, it's weird how Johnny can't keep his 16 F forms in order. We should fire him. Whereas Johnny's a great sales guy who's drowning in the mail room. Yeah. You can't do that to your salespeople. Those,

those people are special. They understand human nature and, and you can't, you, you, you, you TPS the report out of those folks, and you're going to kill your sales. Would you say you've been missing a lot of work lately?

Yeah, I love that movie, Office Space, if you're not familiar with the TPS report reference. So, you know, you mentioned something about parenting, and I think this is something that's also in your field, is helping parents understand their children on top of CEOs and business people as well. Talk to us a little bit about why that's important, that parents need to understand neurodiversity in their children and how just because a kid's ADHD doesn't mean he's acting out or he's a bad child. So I often think about this. I worked with a family once who the mom was very frazzled that the house was messier than she wanted it to be, and all she wanted was for kids to pitch in. And she was like, so I created a system for my kid to organize her room

and put things in places, and all these things are going to be fine. And I'm just so mad because she won't listen to me she's not doing this system so i let the mom sort of go on this rant for a while and i said okay so so this is a really great area for us to intervene on remind me how old is your daughter and she goes she's nine and was like, ma'am, I'm going to say this from a place of love, but there's no way a nine-year-old can do this system that you're talking about. It's way too abstract for a nine-year-old. This is a nine-year-old with an IQ of 147. This is a brilliant nine-year-old. And we forget when you've got neurodivergent people, we tend to treat them simultaneously at the highest strengths and their lowest weaknesses. So it's this weird dichotomy of like, why are you so great?

And why do you suck so much? Where it's, let's not forget she's nine. Right. And yes, this is still a child, right? If the pants aren't alphabetized,

nobody loses. Is she old enough to put the pants in the pants drawer absolutely so let's start there and then we can build upwards towards something a little bit more elaborate and the mom that you could tell was like a really seminal moment for the mom because she was she had gotten sucked into this highest highest narrative and you know the kid was a great kid he is a great kid and you know i mean it's the thing if we don't meet people where they are we're going to constantly lose them for the spiky parts of their narrative you know that's good or bad you you can't. You can't shame someone into changing. You've got to meet them where they are and guide them towards where we need to go.

I think that's a real important message you're saying right there. I mean, that's where they are understanding. You know, it sounds like the mother has a certain type of brain or pattern or mapping that she has. It sounds like she's trying to force adulthood on a kid, really. I mean, there's, you know, someone told me, I never had kids because I don't like them. But no, I like kids. I just don't like changing diapers.

I'm not doing it. And I like sleep too much. I really enjoy sleep. And I enjoy money and having it. So there you go. So somebody said parenting is like parenting with kids is like standing in a window and throwing your money out the window all the time but jokes aside folks you know it's it's you try and force someone told me a long time ago a really

important thing about kids and i used in my pseudo stepdadding i've had to be exposed to. And they go, you know, you make a hallway for kids, but you have to make it wide enough to where they can bounce around and they can figure stuff out and they can learn and they can be kids. But, you know, there has to be some containment, but you can't make it like a straitjacket. Yeah. Yeah. The term I use for that is backyarding.

Backyarding. Because when I was a kid and super high energy and always was creating things sometimes i drove my mom crazy so she would just say go play in the backyard which had a fence around it there was a big rectangular backyard we grew up in a nice town and then i could play teenage mutant ninja turtles or climb trees or fight bears but i was you know i was not going to get hit by a car because there was a fire in the backyard so i still call it this i call it backyarding because kids need room to play and get messy and test boundaries use their imagination too especially we have bled the joy, the color out of childhood. Oh yeah.

Want kids to be little adults. Oh yeah. I mean, they've taken away, I think recess in a lot of schools now too. And you're like, what the hell? That's a time when you go blow out your ADHD energy and then wear yourself out

for school. I mean, the recess has decreased across the nation by 82% in the last 10 years. That's crazy. 82%. That's, I mean. Dude, I was a rocket ship going off to school with recess. Right.

When I talk to administrators, I'm like, listen, I get that you think taking away recess is a good punishment. You are making everybody's lives harder. If you don't want that ADHD kid running around at lunchtime, make them write extra stuff or we'll come up with something creative. But you, I mean, I had a kid I worked with once, brilliant runner, ADHD as long as the day was long. And his principles, I'm sick of his acting out. We're going to take away cross country. I'm like, if do that he'll never come back to school you'll lose him yep and he's maybe that's what he deserves because school's not about cross-country i listen objectively you're right but also if you want the kid to be the best version of himself he's got to be able to move his body enough that

he can learn and brain and body are so interrelated and we tend not to see it that way and i mean so many great ceos i mean we're talking people who are on the top echelons of companies so many great entrepreneurs the people who change the world we're all ADHD. There's a reason they call it the CEO disease. And without us, I think this world would be very freaking boring, different, and lame, and we'd probably all just be IBM men. I think there would be less innovation, less success in the world. I mean, I think, I don't know if someone's ever done a profile on like the top people on the force 400

but i imagine a lot of them if they didn't inherit money and even if they did they probably still adhd because the pressure and you know it's it's a disease that makes you know i've learned to embrace it and love it and go how do we roll with this and you're right you you mentioned something earlier that i did want to expand on. You know, I'm 56. I still have ADHD. It died off a little bit when my testosterone dropped, evidently, in the last few years. But I recently got testosterone therapy.

And I'm using this as an ad to say, check your testosterone if you're a man above 40. But, man, it's back like a vengeance, that TRT, now that they leveled off my oil. Yeah, it's back. 56 years old and I still got it. So it doesn't go away. But you got to learn to ride it like a wave. And if you can have an environment that understands that, so you meet them at step eight and you don't have to start at step one every single time because that's exhausting yeah you know the adhd doesn't want to have to tell the whole story every every every single time time time over and over and over and over and over

what they want what they need is an environment that go that you can say i'm having a bad adhd day and they go cool how can i support you there you go and whether that's true whether you're 6 16 26 or 66 and you know and and as we embrace this neurodiversity movement you know people are raising their hands at work they're being brave and vulnerable and they're saying yeah listen i had an iep as a kid and i still need that kind of support. Can I get that at work? And I'm like, absolutely you can. I mean, we can talk to HR, we can talk to your DEIB people. I have a lot of DEI workers reach out to me on LinkedIn and say, how do we have these conversations at our law firms, at our pharmaceutical companies? I'm so excited to work with, there's a auto repair shop by me

who just reached out. They're like, we think we got a lot of these neurodivergents here. Help us. And I'm like, because I mean, think about it. Who's really good with their hands and not so great with the social skills

if we're speaking broadly, right? Traditional autistic profile, right? How do we support those people? You know, and I don't, that they're not actually my repair shop. I feel a little bit bad about it, but I'm like, absolutely. We'll get in there and we'll talk about what this stuff looks like and feels like. Because once we know we can empower people, right? My aunt always said, do as well as you can until you know better and then do better yep yeah you know i i didn't know what adhd was and in my age of the 90s i mean you know this wasn't anxiety and different

things weren't really talked about i think depression i think you knew what depression was but it wasn't in the societal norm of culture at least not the one i was a part of and so when i started i had always been adhd when I was young, I would check the door 20 times at night to make sure it was locked, even though I checked it 20 times. I was one of those kids. My brother, I think, would wash his hands till they bled, that sort of shit. And so we had ADHD pretty bad. I would drum on my desk in school and be yelled at constantly for not paying attention and not getting a grade. But I would think about things that were really important that shaped my life and thank God for that. But yeah, I mean, back then we still had a lot of men in schools and even the men would

still struggle with me. Nowadays, there's a real problem where it's just mostly women running schools and boys are being treated as dysfunctional girls, which is a real problem. And we've had a lot of psychologists and authors on, please go Google that data. And in effect, if anything, if you have boys nowadays, you have to kind of look at certain schools and what to put them in that understand what boys are going through. I think some of your comments from principals and stuff, I think a lot of that's where that's coming from. Understanding what men are going through and ADHD boys, ADHD boys, people on the spectrum,

all of these things, just trying, they're just trying to cram them into one model fits all. And usually it's a dysfunctional girl model. You just need to be like the girls. You need to calm down. You need to not act out. You're not,

you need not be boys. And you're like, genetically we're boys. Roll with it, honey. And that's really important and and i think that's being lost more so in our education system than ever before and and probably i think companies are really great at diy or di programs diversity inclusion

and stuff sometimes i think you can go too far i'm not a big fan of of what's the what's the thing that they do with the the slights the the micro microaggression stuff that can go too far. I'm not a big fan of what's the thing that they do with the slights, the microaggression stuff. That's going too far. Stop it. That's too much. That's emotionalism. But there's a way to make this balance where we appreciate people. As a CEO, you have to get in people's heads and understand them, figure them out, bring out the best of them.

As a manager, you have to do the same. If you're working with other people, you need to understand the people you're working with you can't dismiss certain people and just go this person you know they're just not as bright because i don't know they drum on their desk or they behave in a in a way that i don't fully understand you know all of my employees that i always had i always had to learn that they were all different and i had to understand each one of them, their psychology. Sometimes there's psychosis. I had to understand my own psychosis and,

and that made it so that I could tap into them for the best and help them achieve what they wanted to do and thereby help achieve what I wanted to do in servant leadership. And that it's just so important. And, and you can't dismiss anyone nowadays, unless they're really, really stupid. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just being sure. But you know, everyone has, everyone has their own thing and you've got to, you know,

when you're running giant companies and even small companies, you've got to understand how your people operate and how to get the best out of them and help, how to help them achieve what they want to achieve. And if they feel like they're a part of your big vision and your thing, then you're going to have a better chance of achieving it than just trying to, I don't know, ram it down everyone's throat, like I've mentioned in the one size fits all education system. I mean, absolutely. Right. And, you know, and I think within that paradigm of, you know, let like treating people as people with different needs, right? I would, I would respectfully tweak what you said. And the idea is there are, I almost find it more helpful to talk about in terms of like energy levels,

like extroverts and introverts, rightverts right because like i'm a guy who presents in some atypical ways for masculinity right like i was a theater kid right there were people who were like oh so you're gay what's your boyfriend's name i'm like no i'm because you were in theater they assumed you and so it's like there's got to be room for that kind of masculinity just i mean and this is sort of a funny side to that. Like one of the girls I dated in high school was a really amazing basketball player. She played pro basketball in Europe. And it was like, people were like, oh, so could you beat her one-on-one? I was like, she is a professional basketball player.

Yeah, she plays. That's her job. She wiped the floor with me. Like, you know, so there needs to be room for putting you know like say let's not jam people in the boxes yeah meet people there learn about them like you said and say learn about their strengths put them in areas that play to their strengths shuffle them away from areas that drag them down that punch holes in their bucket yeah then no matter how you walk through those doors, I'm putting you in positions to, you know, to be successful. Right. And, you know, I, you know, like I said, the CEO of Google,

you know, grew up on a dirt floor, right there. There's a lot of close-minded people out there who'd be like, that person could never be a CEO. Who says not? If you're capable, then you deserve every opportunity to go to the highest place you can fly. And that to me is at the heart of what I do because it's so easy to internalize all this misinformation and bad science. And like like the old what you know the old this is just you know you're just not trying hard enough you know what i don't know a lot of adhders who don't try hard yeah a lot of people who don't try smart and that's a different thing but there you go and i mean there's a lot of successful autistic people one other thing you talk about too i see here is dyslexia there's a ton of like super successful people that have dyslexia oh yeah i mean we could go down the list

i mean oprah winfrey i think uh uh i mean you can go down the whole list of stars and and people and success i mean you know it's well how do we how do we overcome this you know because it's, well, how do we, how do we overcome this? You know, cause there's a lot of diversity inclusion and stuff going on and stuff, but at the core of our human nature, it seems like we have some real problems with prejudice and jumping to conclusions. And, and I think part of it is wired into our, our monkey brain, our, our caveman brain where we're designed to try and make quick assessments of people to, you know, determine whether we're in fight or flight mode in some sort of tribal

caveman dinosaur society. I'm just joking around. People don't write me. The cavemans and dinosaurs probably weren't together. I know that, but you know, they were, they were, you had to determine, okay, is the man, woman, or creature coming at me a fight or flight situation are they a danger are they uh are they a threat are they a friend what sort of response do you need to merit and i think correct me if i'm wrong because i'm floating this theory out there i think the problem with that is it's expanded to a point that we use it for a lot of quick judgment a lot of discrimination a lot of different other issues that you know we're trying to deal with with diversity and inclusion people

of the lgbt community autism dyslexia giftedness adhd all the things we're talking about and probably everything else racism all the different biases that we have, where we slight human beings and sometimes we're horrible to them. Is that really what we kind of have to constantly fight at our core, that nature of us that causes this prejudice? I mean, you said it beautifully. I mean, when we were cavemen running through the jungle and you heard something rustling in the bushes, that threat detection system kicks in and says, run. Those people stayed alive and protected their genetic code. The people who were like charged into the bushes after them,

sometimes they got lunch and sometimes they were lunch. Yeah, this is one of the, this actually is one of the talks I give all about managing anxiety, right? It's not about curing it. It's not about overcoming it. It's about finding ways to make it work managing anxiety, right? It's not about curing it. It's not about overcoming it. It's about finding ways to make it work for you, right? So we've got these incredible threat detection systems, but they are absolutely wired

for living on the African savannah 300,000 years ago. They're not so much wired for, I didn't get as many mentions on TikTok as I wanted to, but that system cascades and doesn't know any better. It's like, I'm in danger. Ah, you know,

one of the things that we do is when things show up as different or unexpected, our brains say it's a lot easier to just slam the door on that. I don't know what that is. And then because our brains like to be right, our brains seek out information that proves us right. And the activating system where we collect data to support whatever sort of crazy bullshit we believe,

you know, I've always been enthralled by that. I grew up in a coal. And so I, and I knew it was bullshit from the time I was three. Somehow I was born a King where I just knew certain things. And that or I figured them out as a survival mode of ADHD is probably more accurate. But we'll go with the king thing first because I'm narcissistic and dark triad traits are how I learned to survive.

And they feel really good. I mean, they might be dark triad, but they're really enjoyable sometimes. Anyway, folks, but so I, I, I've studied why people believe things from the beginning of time. Why can a person come up with a belief that there are blue Martians living amongst us or lizard people, and then they can expand it into a whole ideology where they have books and knowledge and all the supporting biases that are built from that reticuling activating system that collects the data that they have. And yeah, it's really interesting to me. The other part of it is too, it's kind of lazy thinking, right? When you look at somebody and you hold certain biases, it's kind of just a way to be freaking lazy

so you don't have to learn anything maybe too. I don't know. Is that true or are just people just content in their bias? It's less lazy. It's the, the fancy psychology word for it is egocentronic, which basically means, you know, if you love, if you love a particular actor and spend a lot of time and money watching this actor's movies,

and then somebody said, Hey man, you heard that he's awful person, right? He does all these terrible things. Your brain goes, I don't, I don't want to believe that because I've already spent all this time and

money liking this guy. And he seems so wonderful being on camera. So I'm just going to ignore that, push it away because he challenges this thought in a way that feels very uncomfortable to me. Ah, the uncomfortableness. Yeah. And our brains like to be right, but their primary job is to protect us. Yeah.

So it's the sort of thing like the way we, the language I often use to talk about this is what we call first thought, second thought. So if you're walking down the street and you see a dog in an alley and it's growling and your first thought goes, oh, danger. And sometimes your first thought is right and you should run away. Sometimes you sit around, what's my second thought here? And you realize the dog is growling because its leash is stuck under a dumpster and to get somebody's attention because, Hey, I'm stuck. So you go over and the dog tackles you and is licking your face like, Oh, and you go return it to its owner. Right. So, you know, I mean, I was, took my kids on a walk the other day and, you know, and I think like a lot of us neurodivergent people, we put out this sort of vibe

and like other neurodivergency it's like you know to make a very nerdy reference you know the beacons are lit gondor calls for aid right and i walk into the forest with my kids and this little girl comes up to me and she starts rattling off information about the font on the signs in this park and of course i'm vibing it i'm like let's go and her dad goes i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm sorry i'm like hey i literally said it was like listen first thought second thought because yes i'm this guy in my real life i'm like first thought there's a kid i don't know running at me second thought is oh she's sharing a thing she's super passionate about and the guy literally was like do you have a card you know and it's one of those things like

if you can tolerate that moment of discomfort so many more people and experiences become available to you yeah right as you're pushing back on that part of your body that goes if you do this you're absolutely gonna die yeah actually probably not yeah i tuned in this really hard my audience sure we talked about over the years but after something that happened in 2016 i was trying to figure out why i was trying to figure out the terms of white nationalism and what this was and it was rebranded kkk and i was trying to figure out these terms they were using that i used i mean i didn't use them specifically but every now and then i referenced one like like culture and i'm like

well culture's culture and turns out they're you know their version's a little different maybe coded maybe our culture doesn't mean like everyone's culture big surprise there people anyway i was trying to figure these things out and i was like you know i i think i don't have a lot of biases and prejudices and i started and i and it came with this system i just kind of made up in my head where i was like you know what let's see if i still have any biases because i've been using some of these words these people are using and i don't really want to use these words anymore because i'm getting thrown in with them if I do. And so I started, I started doing this experiment and I don't know if there's anything triggered it that was like, Hey, here's an experiment you should do. But I was like, you know, let's, let's find out if I have more biases than I think I do.

And so I started doing a thought experiment where every time I go to the store in Las Vegas, I would listen to my thoughts on that fight or flight mode where I would determine the faces that I saw, the people I saw, what my initial impressions were. And it was eyeopening. I remember I saw a guy who was a big white guy who probably looks like me and he had a Harley Davidson jacket on and, you know, I had the Harley Davidson sort of, you know, rough guy gang look and man i came with some things on him and and you know because i've hung out with harley

davidson dudes when i was young and i and then my brain would listen the would listen to itself and i'd be like what the fuck did you just come up with i mean you don't know if that harley davidson guy's ever been in prison you don't know if he's carrying a weapon you know anything about he just might be a nice guy who just kind of likes the look you know he's probably not selling meth you know were you coming up with some of these things and i would go through that as i would go through the store and i would question my assumptions and be like yeah the stuff you're coming up with in your head is insane dude you have no idea who this person is or what their background is or or or anything you have no idea who this person is or what their background is or or or anything you have no idea and look at these thoughts that you're coming up with and here i

thought i was pretty you know didn't have a lot of biases and prejudices and discrimination stuff this stuff i would come up with is like insane and i'm just like dude you need to calm the hell down with some of these assumptions you're making you don't know who people are and that's that's why I love the show is to get people on the show and learn who people are. And I enjoy learning from people. But yeah, it was a great experiment to learn from. Everyone should go through it, I think, in my idea. There you go. So let's wrap up the show.

We've been having a lot of fun with this. We normally don't go this long, but we've had a great time. So give us your final offer to people on what people can get at your website what people can do to utilize your services etc etc so the idea i guess the number one thing is the world is built for neurotypical people because there's a lot more of them than there are of us so so if you're a manager or if you're a principal of a school or if you have a very large family and you're like what you're talking about doesn't describe me but it does it describes people i care about people who are in my orbits then i would very much invite you to talk to me because the idea that meeting these people where they are and giving them their own weirdly shaped holes to fit

into rather than trying to cram all these round pegs into square holes then you're giving those people the best chance to contribute to these circles that they operate in whether that's work or school or community service or whatever it might be and and when you put play to people's strengths it becomes a rising tide that lifts all boats there you go everybody does better when we play to people's strengths you know and think about the times in your life where people accommodated something you're not so good at or worked with you and you're going to realize people have done that for you and it helped you and if you have an atypical brain trying to make it in people have done that for you and it helped you and if you have an atypical brain trying to make it in a society not built for you and make the connection that

oh wow if me with my regular brain benefited from this someone with an atypical brain would logically benefit much more from it and we don't need everybody to sit in their own little palace, right? Most changes we make are simple and cheap, if not free, and based from a place of compassion and understanding. And, and I mean, you know, I don't have hard numbers on this, but every time we invest in this, every time we make somebody's life a little easier, it's back a thousand percent. I mean, it is just happier kids, happier people, meek for happier, more productive organizations, and everybody wins.

There you go. So give people your final thoughts and pitch on what they can do by hiring you, how they can hire you, how they can reach out to you on your website, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I i mean it's www.drmatzakresky.com and i'm very googleable because i have a very unique name so just punch

dr matt zakresky into into google or spotify and then i'd pop up a lot of places but the biggest thing is that the more we know the better we we can do. And it doesn't matter if you're coming at this from a place of, I raised six ADHD kids. I get it. I want to tweak what I know, or I'm not even sure if this whole ADHD thing's not a myth, but he made some decent points. And I want to learn a little bit more about that. My job, the reason I'm on this planet is to help people live better lives. And when that starts from a place of brain science, then we know more, we do better, and everybody improves. You know, and that's, I mean, it's a pretty good calling. And I like doing it, and I like to think I'm pretty good at it.

There you go. And they can reach out to your website give us the website one more time so for speaking it's drmatzakreski.com for therapy it's the neurodiversitycollective.com you know two hats two companies but you know CEO mindset right living that life why would I focus on one thing Why do one company when you can do a bunch? I always order flights of beer. I can't ever choose one thing. That's true. But that's a good thing, flights of beer.

Yeah, I agree. Beer is necessary. So thank you very much for coming on the show. This has been a really brilliant discussion. The funds that we have are the ones that go along. So thank you very much for coming on, Matthew. We really appreciate it. Chris, it was a pleasure. You're an awesome host and

I thought we got a lot done. There you go. We educated the people. Now go out there, folks, and quit being discriminatory to everybody and play on people's strengths. Thanks for tuning in. Go to goodreads.com, forgeschrisfoss, linkedin.com, 4chesschristmas, linkedin.com,

4chesschristmas, chrismas1, the TikTok, and all those crazy places we are on the internet. Be good to each other, stay safe, and we'll see you guys next time.

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