The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Elzie Flenard, III. The MAYOR at Podcast Town

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

Elzie Flenard, III. The MAYOR at Podcast Town Podcasttown.net Podcast Town founder, Elzie Flenard (The MAYOR), started Podcast Town to help folks find their “voice” among the noise. Through podcasting, he has helped and continues to help partners turn that voice into a powerful, long-tail marketing tool. It doesn’t have to be loud – it just has to be real.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi, folks. This is Voss here from thechrisvossshow.com, thechrisvossshow.com. Hey, we're coming to you on the Airgate Podcast.

We certainly appreciate you guys tuning in. Who knew we'd do another podcast in 13 years? Come on, really? Anyway, guys, be sure to see the video version of this. We've had so many great authors on. We just had the New York Times, one of the New York Times editors, co-editors, or whatever on the show. Great show. Just a great week last week. So go back and watch all those shows on youtube.com. You can also see 10-minute snippets on LinkedIn, Instagram, all those shows on youtube.com you can also see 10 minutes 10 minute snippets on linkedin instagram all those great places that we have stuff also go to uh goodreads.com you can see everything we're reading or viewing and all the brilliant authors that are always on the show

and you can go to all of our groups facebook linkedin twitter instagram we're just everywhere just google chris voss or the chris voss show make sure you get the right chris voss and of course you can see my books over on Goodreads. Also, go see our new LinkedIn newsletter. It's killing it over there on LinkedIn and our big 32,000 group on LinkedIn as well. Join up to that thing. Today we have an amazing gentleman on the show.

He is the mayor of PodcastTown.net, which is pretty cool. I'm not even the mayor of my podcast. I'm like the janitor or something. So we have LZD Flanard III on the show. Number one and number two are unavailable. So we have the third here, but we're still working on getting the rest of the family booked. But he is going to be on the show. Let me give you his bio. Don't pigeonhole L.C.D. Flenard III. Don't even try. Describe him this way, and I'll point out that one. Change your perspective, and he'll lead you down another path, maybe without you even realizing. He's a creative dude, an entrepreneur,

a family man, a business owner. No box fits. It doesn't exist. He's a man of original thoughts, all products of unique thinking. Welcome to the show. I'll see how our... Thank you so much for having me, Chris. I'm fantastic, and I'm excited to have this conversation. We're excited to have you on the show,

the mayor of Podcast Town. Give us your plugs so people can find you on the interwebs, please. So quick plug. My website is podcasttown.net and my email address is mayor at podcasttown.net. I'm always there. So if you email me, I will respond. He's always overseeing the town of podcast.net. Great stuff, man. Hey, tell us more about you. Give us a background, an origin story on you and how you got to be more about who you are and how you got to be the mayor. So long story short, Chris, I always knew I wanted to own my own business. And so when I was

a teenager, even my plan was this, it was simple. I knew I wanted to have a family. Education was important to my mom. So I knew I had to do that. And I knew that in order to get married to any self-respecting woman, I needed a job. And so I said, okay, I need to go to school, get a job, get married, have a family. And then once I have the opportunity, quit my job and do my own thing. That was my plan. And so I'm happy to report that the plan did indeed work. It took a little bit longer than I anticipated, but here we are. I've got a family, married. I tricked or convinced, I'm sorry, my wife to marry me. We had a couple of kids and I jumped out on my own and started my own business. And so here we are, the plan worked. It's always good when a plan comes

together. It's never a straight line though. It was very zigzagged. But one day I'm sitting in a meeting with my business coach and we're talking strategy, where I want the company to go and be and serve. And he pauses, which is always dangerous for a creative person. And he stares off into space and he says, Elzy, and I'm at this point, I'm on the edge of my seat because I don't know what he's about to say. He said, you're the mayor. The way you show up, the way you preside, the way you do your thing, I'm going to call you the mayor. You're the mayor of podcast town. And so we put it out there into the universe and people started to respond to it. In fact, I put it out on Facebook and I get a call from my mom and she's congratulating me on running for the mayor. And I

told her, I was like, mom, this is a marketing thing. I'm not really running for mayor. So that's how that whole thing happened. That's awesome, man. It's a great, it's a great moniker, I guess you call it. Like I said, I'm still the janitor of the Chris Voss Show. I just clean the toilets and pick up the trash, and they just go, get on the mic. You got started in a podcast a long time ago. When did that begin? So this was a part of the whole plan, right? So, again, since my first day on anybody's job, I knew I wanted to do my own thing.

And the problem, Chris, is it was taking a really long time. I was struggling to get my side business to the point where I could quit. And so year seven goes by, comes and goes. Year eight, year nine, year 10. And at this point, I start to realize that there's something missing. I'm doing the same thing over and over and I'm getting the same results. So I needed to change something. And so my bright idea was I was going to start a radio station.

It was an internet radio station at the time. And I was going to launch a show called Enterprise Now. And the idea behind the show, it was I didn't care who listened. I didn't care if I got a single download. I simply wanted to get in front of business owners and learn from them. That was my only goal. So I launched the show. Then things started to go. PR agencies started to send guests to me and I started to learn business from these people. And eventually I learned enough to quit my day job and do it full time. And so my motivation and my reason for starting my show was simply to gain

knowledge and to learn from business owners. Wow, man, that's awesome. And so you've, you've, you've gone from 2015 to now you're the mayor. So you're definitely moving up the next couple of years. You might be people say that a lot. And I kind of like mayors because mayors are in my mind, I'm from a small town, right? No stoplights, one grocery store, one gas station. I love the fact that the mayor is the guy who will come to your barbecue.

He'll come to your kid's birthday party. The president, he has, he's too busy. He has other things to worry about. I love that personable approach to both business and how we just move about in the world. It really fits us well. Yeah. Most people like the mayor better than the president. They just blame everything on him, no matter who he is.

It's always his fault. My toast is overcooked. It's the president's fault. I know how this works in this silly world. So yeah, mayor's a little bit better. He's a little bit more personal. You can go get in contact with him and stuff. So what is your, now basically you run an agency, is that correct?

Correct. Yep. So we started out as, again, no motives, no ideation that we were going to become a company even. It just happened by listening to guests and listening to the market and watching how things were moving in the podcast space, we eventually became a full service agency where we help with everything from launching the podcast through managing the podcast brand. There you go. There you go. So what sort of clients do you target? And for people out there listening, how do they get involved with you and get your help?

Yeah, we love B2B service-based B2B industry. Anybody who has small to no marketing team, but realizes the power of podcasting, they want to get in the game, but they don't know where to start. They don't know how. They don't know all of the nuances of marketing audio. Those typically make really good partners for us. There you go. There you go. What can you really provide for companies?

How do you take them to the next level? Quite simply, we help build relationships and cultivate relationships. If you're in business and you're not building relationships, then you're already, then you're, I don't know what you're doing. You're, you're, you're, you're off the mark. So podcasting is a fantastic way to build relationships. I literally would not be sitting here had it not been for podcasting. Yeah.

I mean, you and me podcasting definitely just rocks. I wish I would have, I wish I would have stuck with it harder back in the day when no one was doing it, but it seems like everybody has a podcast. My dogs have two podcasts and I just have one. Like David, one is, one is the joy of, of, of chasing balls. So there's that. That's interesting. So you have a podcast that you run yourself? I have three, technically I have four, but three of them are somewhat active. So I have Enterprise Now, which is my flagship show, the show that I started back in 2015, 2016. And then I have Podcast Town Throwdown, which is our branded show where we're talking all about growth as a podcaster and how to grow your audience. And then I have what I call Chris, I call it a audio video

blog because it's audio. I'm planning on introducing video into it and it's my blog. Those three round out sort of my podcast umbrella. Do you want to give us the names of all of them so people can Google them? Yep. The first one is Enterprise Now. The second one is just Podcast Town Throwdown. And then the other one is Life Me L I F E dot M E. So people can go subscribe to those and stuff and find out more about what you guys are doing. What else do we need to cover so that people know more about you and what you do? The impact, right? That podcasting has on businesses. I made the declaration a few

years ago, Chris, that in three to five years, if you're in business, you will be in the podcast space in some form, whether you're hosting a show, guesting on a show or sponsoring a show. And I have recently revised that declaration to read if you are in two to three years, if you're not in the podcast space in some state or form, you're falling behind. I believe that as a business tool, it's that important and impactful. People consume a lot of audio. It's just amazing how popular it got. It was funny. I thought podcasting was going to die and we pulled back on it. And of course, we were making lots of money in other areas. YouTube, of course, as a partner back when it was good and everything else. And of course we were making lots of money in other areas. YouTube, of course, as a partner back when it was good and, um, and everything else. And it was really wild. We, we hadn't really

been doing it for a few years, but people weren't really embracing it. And it seemed to be dying. Like YouTube was really just killing it with video. And I'm like, well, I guess audio is over. And at that time it, things had gone from 3g 4G. And people were like, hey, faster, we can download more data. And so we'll consume video. And so I pulled back a little, and we were just doing a few a year. And I'm like, yeah, I think podcasting is done. And then Apple jumped into the pool. And all of a sudden, I started getting these notifications from our Blueberry, our hosting service.

And it's hundreds of people start downloading the thing. And it's like thousands of people. And I'm like, what's going on? We haven't put up any new content for a year and people are listening like old shows and they're still listening. What's going on? And yeah, the license went on and it was crazy. And now lately it's, I think everyone's realized what you're saying is that they need to get a podcast for those companies that are out there or those individuals that are out there that maybe have small companies like sole proprietors that you do B2B. What sort of advice do you have for them to finally quit sitting on? To be honest, the advice is simple

to just get in the game. Starting a podcast is simple, not easy, but simple. Get with a partner, a coach. It doesn't have to be podcast town. Somebody to help you set it up and launch correctly and get in the game. Even if you want to start with guesting on other shows, that's a lower cost option where you can be a guest on shows and really show up as an expert and increase your brand that way. There you go. There you go.

So this is pretty interesting. What else do people know? Here's a good question for you. I get this a lot. I get these people that will call me up and be like, hey, Chris, I want to start a podcast. Okay, great. And I'll be like, go do it. And they'll be like, how do I start making money at that?

You're just like, what? Build an audience maybe first. What's your advice to those people? Because that's like the number one thing I always get from people is like, how do I start making money right away? And I'm like, I don't know, maybe you should worry about that after you get your episode in the can. Same advice. I think if you start a podcast thinking that you're going to make money right away, unless you already have a following, you're famous. I don't know, you're Shaquille O'Neal or Oprah Winfrey or somebody like that. You're likely not going to achieve that goal. So what I tell people is what was called ROR,

return on relationship. That is the number one way to monetize a podcast is the relationships that you build. And especially if you have a product, building those relationships and selling those services or indoor products on the backend is probably the number one way. Sponsorship and advertisement is an option, but you have to have so many downloads for that to make sense. And I don't know about you, if you delved into the sponsorship world, but it's a ton of work. You have to give them numbers and you have to have meetings and then there are decision makers and then there's follow-ups and then there's just a ton of stuff that you have to do that goes into it. And so oftentimes if you have, again, a product or a service, that's probably the number one in the highest return on investment.

Yeah. If you can integrate it into something you're already making money in where it's more like an advertising thing or something like that. But I wrote about this in my book and I talked about how over my lifetime, most of the companies I started were mostly investments with partners or whatever. And I like being the CEO. I like being the guy, but I never loved most of the business that I was in. I love making the vehicle and making it profitable and the challenge with that gun to your head where you're like, make a profitable or else, buddy, we're all going to be bankrupt if you don't make this work. I like the pressure, the drive of that. But I never loved anything and that really made it hard sometimes. And so a lot of, I didn't go

the normal way entrepreneurs go where you find something you're passionate about, you love it and it's awesome and you do it. Even my podcast for the first, you know, 12 years or something, I didn't love it. I just was like, Hey, it's a podcast. I get to hang out with some friends, talk to people. I've got a big mouth. It works for me, but I didn't love it. In fact, in the later years, I was really getting upset, really awful guests that wouldn't show up on time or wouldn't show up on ghost the show, just really unprofessional people. And I was just like,

oh my God, I'm so sick of these guests and what they're doing. I get good guests, but every now and then, sometimes I have people on the show and you have to carry them around through the show because they suck at media. I was just really frustrated at the show. And when the coronavirus started, we changed the format of the Chris Voss show and we opened it up wide, the aperture much more wider to be everything instead of just these really narrow Silicon Valley tech CEOs and technology discussions about phones and stuff. And I have just loved it ever since. I fell in love with it. I think, I don't think I've ever loved anything more in any of my business ventures than I

love the podcast right now. And so I love doing it. I love coming on the mic. I love doing one to two things that we do a day and just pumping out great material. I love the response feedback we get. And so I recommend, just like you said, you shouldn't look at this as like, how can I make money at this? How can I do this?

You really, and I experienced this too as a YouTube creator, it's really hard to make content. Like most people sit there and they go, I have a bunch of thoughts in my head and I can make a podcast. Now, after episode seven or five or six or four, you start realizing you really don't have that much gas up there unless you're really passionate about whatever you're talking about or doing. And it's funny.

I'll tell a lot of people. They'll be like, I want to do a podcast. I'm like, here's what I want you to do. I want you to take your phone. I want you to go record, quote, unquote, rehearsal podcast for maybe 30 minutes. Maybe do an hour. Just go record it. See how you do on an open mic.

Do three episodes. And then come back to me and let's talk about doing your podcast. That's funny. 98% of those people will never do the three episodes. And I'm like, well, I just saved you a lot of money. It's good advice. When people try and look at it as a, I think a money vehicle, like how can we make somewhere money? That's not the way to approach this business in my opinion. I don't know. Well, you tell me what you think. Yes. So I can definitely identify with what you're saying in terms of not loving any one thing. But I will say I do have a passion for audio. I've been a singer-songwriter since I was a little one. So I think for me, podcasting became just an extension of that. And it was an additional way to meet people because my number one job as the mayor is to shake hands and kiss babies. And so it allows me to be able to do that, to meet people, to hear their story, to tell my story and to connect with people. So I'll say, I will say I love the, the creation and the ideation process

in general, whether that's for podcasting or creating a new business or service. I love the process of having an idea, building a team around it, getting people on board, and then watching it grow and flourish. Yeah, that's the real fun of it. I was talking with the people today about your last night, I think it was, about crypto. And someone was making a thing that I always call them carpetbaggers, people that go from one trend to another. And they're like, I don't know. I heard it's a trend, so I should do it. And I'm like, you really shouldn't do that. People do that.

I'm an NFT pro now. I'm a crypto pro now. Every week, whatever the trend is, they're the newest thing. And it's a quick doing that. I've been doing the show for 13 years now. I think I'm pushing a little bit. I'm exaggerating. It'll actually be August 13th, but we're technically almost 13.

It feels like 13. Let's put it that way. And we're not changing the show like every five seconds. We're not doing this whatever. We did start some extra podcasts a couple years ago to try and see if they would get legs. And when they didn't, we put a bullet in their brain. That's just testing and doing stuff. But we didn't change the main show much and if anything all we did was open up the

the aperture and took more guests on from different various walks of life and i think the show is much more interesting now anybody who's a successful media person we have people from cnn and msnbc wall street journal new york times we have some of those brilliant journalists on the show and some of the most brilliant journalists on the show and some of the most brilliant writers and authors. People are represented by all the big Simon Schuster and houses. And these guys are all media savvy. And I love the show because when they show up on time,

they got their notes, they know their gig. I can run a great show by having great guests. And so I love it. But that's probably about the only changes we've made. But I haven't gone through life constantly trying to grab the latest thing. So anyway, I think we've beaten the, don't just get into podcasting because everyone's doing a dog into the ground now at this point. Yes. Yes. What else do we want to touch on or help people reach out to you and get involved with your agency and what you guys are doing?

I think the only other thing I would add is just really driving home the B2B side. I think in general, business people tend to be behind trends. I estimate that we still have another four to five years before the business world really gets to aha. Some people have caught on, but I think if you're in business, small or large, get into podcasting. I think, again, it's still Blue Ocean as compared to blogs or YouTube channels. So now is the time to hop in and stake your claim. Yeah. So what do you say to people who might say, it seems like everybody's blog nowadays.

Is there a reason for me to, like, where's my space, basically? Where's space for me? Yeah, for me, it's all about your finding your, your voice and your unique method to talk with your people. And a lot of times businesses have, they've already done that. They just have to transfer that to audio and really present themselves in a way that connects between people's ears. Because if you're successful in business, you've already niched, you already know your avatar, you already know what, you know, where they hang out, et cetera.

So now it's just a matter of fine tuning that and, and adapting that for audio. Yeah. You know, the other thing is too, you really have to have the ability to hold a mic for a good half an hour. Like I've had so many people that are like, I'm starting a podcast, Chris, because you're so good at this. In fact, one of my favorite things is when people, they come on the show and they go, you made it so easy. It was so great.

And they go, I'm starting my own podcast. I'm like, yeah, have fun with that. And I don't know, man. I know they come on the podcast. I do two shows a day. I'm not sitting there going, I don't know if you're good or not. That's their business. And in the longevity is the real case. I'm not sitting there going, I don't know if you're good or not. That's their business. And the longevity is the real case. I'm like, I had that with our YouTube video. We still have people watching content from our YouTube video from 13 years ago. And that's 13 years. It might be 14 at this point because we started there first. And we have people still making comments. They're still watching those videos. It's like insane. I had to quit putting prices on our videos because people 10 years from now, five to 10 years from now, will be like, you're stupid.

It's not $100 anymore. It's $10 on Amazon. Dude, that video is so old. Like, you have no idea. I still have people ask me customer service questions. Like, I can't get my Bluetooth speaker to work from 2013. Anyway, my point is you really have to have a love for talking, speaking, blabbing. I talked about this in my book where I grew up as an introvert.

I grew up as a very quiet, watch everyone do stuff person. I wasn't a narcissist yet. And starting my own companies, you have to be a master communicator. You've got to communicate and sell your vision to your vendors, your employees, your board, your investors. Everybody has to be involved in your vision, and you've got to constantly be selling it. You've got to constantly be marketing it. You've got to be constantly letting people know what's going on, why it's going on, what the updates are. And so I just became a big mouth for my companies. I always wrote my newsletter. We didn't have podcasting back then. I probably would have

had one. They're like, we have to hear you at work. We don't want to hear you on a podcast too. But I just became a big mouth over time. And owning so many companies, it just becomes natural to you to be communicating to people, helping them know what's going on, what's going on in your head, getting them pumped up, getting them motivated. And so to me, blabbing, that's what I call it, is just very natural to me. And so I think a lot of people, too, when they consider doing a podcast, they need to realize that you really need to enjoy talking. You can't just get on this mic and just go, hey, how's it going? What's up?

My least favorite shows are the ones that are stream of consciousness. And I get three minutes in and I'm like, I will never get those three minutes back. We use the script to cut out all the, because I just did it right there. I use a lot of the filler words and sometimes some of my guests use more filler words than others or repeat a word. And so we use the script to cut them out. And it's amazing. Sometimes there'll be like 500 words that's cut out of the show. And those stream of consciousness shows are the worst because I used to do them.

So I'm right in there with it. But yeah, I used to do stream of consciousness shows in the beginning. And yeah, they're really awful. One of these days I'll quit singing. What are some ways that people can use podcasts to build trust, grow their influence and increase the sub brands? How can they do that? Again, I think it's just a matter of understanding what your customers need and speaking to those needs.

If you're a lawn service company or I'm in Wisconsin right now. So if you're an equipment vendor, tell me how I can maintain my snowblower so that when I go to use it, it actually works. Tell me how some hacks on how to not have to shovel my deck every time it snows, because I hate shoveling. But things like that add value and help people save time or learn something. And by doing that, you're building that rapport, you're building your influence and you're building that relationship. And when it comes time for me to buy another snowblower or to buy what you have, you're going to be top of mind.

Yeah, or cheese might be a good really. That's what I do if I was in Wisconsin. Yeah, man, you guys are cheeseheads. Yeah, yeah, lots of cheese up there. I've got hungry just when you said you're from Wisconsin. So now you're a full-service agency. What are all the different aspects of different things that you provide to people on podcasts? Yep.

So the first thing being launch. So we help brands launch their podcast. The second sort of area is the production piece, which is editing. It is the show notes and all that stuff. a partner to help you create content and to help you have a strategy, to have a plan so that you don't run out of things to say, so that you're saying the right thing to the right person at the right time on the right platform. And we also help with the broadcasting as we call it, which is primarily social media, email marketing, that type of thing. And we're helping drive sales through those channels and through those mediums. And then you guys also do a few other things for clients.

You help them get podcast bookings, I think, for guests? Yes. Yep. So that will fall under our broadcast area where, again, you may not be able to host a show, but you have somebody in your organization that is a good ambassador for your brand. A person who is, who loves to talk, who understands the vision, who, who gets it, who can guest on other podcasts and really represent your brand. So you guys help them prep the guests for the show, plan the episode content. That's really good. Cause I don't think a lot of people know

how to do a research on a show. One of the things that's funny to me is, is anytime I'm on a show, sometimes they send me this whole five-page thing that I have to fill out to come on their show. And I'm like, most of our research we do, we just Google a name and pull up stuff and look at it for five minutes, and we have our research done pretty much. Then I'll watch other videos of people's interviews and stuff to see what their book's about, what they're talking about.

And I think most people are surprised when I have authors on. They're like, you didn't read the book. You don't have to. We watch a lot of their interviews. We know what's going on. If it's a really high media guest, we'll buy the book and probably jump through the audiobook on it. But for the most part, people don't know how to do the research.

They don't know how to do the background. Putting the show together, if you will, producing it, high media guests on. I think some of our big guests that we had that we did some interesting thing was Peter Strzok from the FBI. I wanted to humanize them and talk about something other than what the media just kept banging in their little 30 minutes, their 30 second spots. I wanted to find out my democracy was failing me. We had Carol Baskin on and that was interesting guests with the potential for a lot of interesting questions and a lot of interesting answers, which is how it came out. And so packaging a show and producing

it is really important as well. But what about, let's see, sales and marketing? Do you help them? How do you help them in that field? It looks different for every client, but essentially what that looks like or could look like is let's say you, your service company, and you have a course or training. Our partnership, it's, it seeks to set up a sales funnel so that people, when they listen to the show, we build a customer experience around that listener. So we want them to listen to the show and then we want them to sign up to the mailing list.

For example, they sign up for the mailing list. They go to a landing page, they go to a landing page. They go to the landing page, they get free stuff. And then they might get an email series that nurtures them for a time, and then they end up buying. So it's really digging a level deeper and really helping work through that sales funnel and that sales process. Yeah, it's definitely important.

If you can figure out a way as a brand to wrap it around like you guys are doing. And like when people say to me, they go, how much money do you make off the show? And you're like, it's integrated with everything. There's the YouTube channel, there's the mailing list, there's the chrisfastshow.com where we've wrapped it all in together. There's shows that we do, remotes that we do. There's so much. There's like a whole ecosystem of ways that we make money off the show. And if you really look at it, you're like, how much does the show actually make? You're like, well, not as much as you'd think.

But the overall wraparound, the money from it, and we still get great money from YouTube.com for the shows that are on there and the revenue share on there. But there's so many different ways to do it, package it, and, of course, build your audience, and it gets bigger. And, of course, we make a lot of evergreen stuff. Our stuff is going to be up. We tell people, hey, it's going to be up there for 10 to 13 years. I even tell my family, if I kill over one day, make sure the YouTube channel just keeps running, and make sure you take the money out of YouTube, because that thing will run as long as Google stays in business,

probably long after I'm dead. So that'll be funny. We actually have shows where I'll call up people and I'll be like, you look like 13 years younger on those videos. You might want to download a copy of it so when you're 70 you can look at it and be like, that's what I looked like on TV when I was 30. The longevity of it and seeing the big vision, I think is really important. Yeah, definitely. What else do we want to touch on your agency before?

So here's the danger, Chris, of having a podcaster on your show. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, go ahead. I'm curious to know what you think about the future of podcasting. You've been in it long enough to have seen some of the ebbs and flows where do you think we were we are you know three to five years from now i think you're gonna see a lot i think podcasting is still gonna be a thing one thing that disturbed me was with my youtube videos was i started talking about people because i early on tried to pioneer video podcasting and still in the 3g 4g area era i was still in the 3g era actually when i started it and i was just like i see the

future as as video podcasting and so i started doing video podcasts which are really hard for people to download and upload and whatever and over the years the consistent message i've gotten back on my videos and my youtube videos is mostly people are listening to them. They're not watching the videos. They're listening to them. They're doing the wash or like for me, I'm at the gym. So I'm not really watching a YouTube or a podcast. I'm listening to it. I listen to a lot of audio books while I'm driving in the car. I listen to a lot of podcasts while I'm driving in the car. And so people are doing other things and consuming it. Like I'll sit all day and have an audio book or podcast playing in the background or YouTube video playing in the background while I work on a separate computer. I don't watch the video. I just, I just listen to it every now and then if there's

something pertinent, Hey, here's something. And I'll be like, Oh, I'll go watch whatever that part is. But for the most part, a lot of podcasts I think are going to get washed out. Like the numbers I got from Blueberry was 80% of podcasts die by episode seven. And the other 80%, the other ones that are left after that, 80% of them will die by episode, I think it's 20 or 20. I think it's 17 or 20 or 25. There's some variations on there. Companies like Anchor probably have half a million. A couple of years ago, I heard it was 300,000. They probably have half a million zombies dead podcasts on their

thing. And in my experience, about 95% of podcasts are just either walking zombies or soon to be zombies. And we've had famous people on the show that were brought to us by top PR agencies that have a book. They've got a TV show and stuff. And we'll go look at some of their prior videos to prepare the research for the show. And people didn't pay their GoDaddy account. So their whole website's down. And you're like, wow, that was a waste of someone's time. So I think what's going to happen is you're going to see a consolidation where more and more shows like mine are going to be the people who last.

And we've really done that. We've outlasted a lot of people. And I think you're just going to see a lot of zombie podcasts. And I think it's going to continue because so many people are getting into it. And like what you and I have talked about in the show, they're doing it for all the wrong reasons. And the other thing is too, and this probably is a shout-out to your agency, is they don't do a lot of the prep work that you're talking about doing.

When I look at your website and I see how you help clients and how you really help them do all the legwork. A lot of people get burned out doing the research. They get burned out doing the scheduling. Sometimes it's hard to get guests. It gets frustrating with a lot of different things. Like guests don't show up on time. When I show up on podcasts, it's amazing how many don't have an automated scheduler. They're just like, hey, time's good for you.

And it takes like 50 emails to get a booking time. So I think what's going to happen is there's just going to keep being a consolidation of great shows, good shows. I think some of the silliness is going to end. I guess they're popular if Rachel Maddow does a show, seven episodes on Watergate or something, 10 episodes on Watergate. And she's got a platform where she can build a lot of audience. But to me, I think longer term shows like mine, one that you always know is there. It's always, you're always going to come back to it. It's not the, it's not the, it's not the spark of the week.

I think that's the future of it. And I think just, it's going to be consolidation. The better shows are going to stay and make the long-term thing. I think people are going to get, I think people are going to get, they're going to see the zombies. But the zombies already are just incredibly out there. It's just amazing. Like I've appeared on shows that aren't airing till, what, May or June of next year? And I'm just like, how do you build

an audience where you only put out content once a week? We run the Chris Voss show like a radio show. We do one to two podcasts a day. It's been a little light over Christmas and January. We'll be back to where we're punching out two shows a day. That's 10 shows a week. And when you look at Howard Stern, a radio show, any sort of morning radio show, people want content and they want to consume content. And if they like you, they want to consume your content. And if you don't give enough content, they'll go wander off and go to somebody else. And so when I see these podcasters that maybe do once a month, every two months, once every six months, I don't get it. I don't get it.

We have to jam out shows because we're putting out so much content. And so I think the powerful shows, the good shows, the interesting shows, the people that constantly have great content, great guests, I think those are going to be the ones who are going to make the long distance. And I don't see people changing their behavior. I think people are still going to consume. Mother still got stuff to do, whether it's at work or whether it's at home doing. People tell me I do it while I'm washing the dishes. I listen to your show and I'm like, what? Like, seriously, I'm not boring, but I'm not. They're doing other things and I do the same thing. So I feel their, I feel their pain, but I try and use

as much of my spare time or if I'm doing something boring, like gym work, like that's boring. It's not really fun to sit there on a treadmill for 30 minutes, but it's better if you can educate yourself. So I see the future continuing. Like I said, I thought it was dying in 2013, 2014 until Apple jumped back in. And it's so easy to get on. It's so easy to find. But I think more and more people are going to be searching for shows that have longevity. So if you get in this business, you really got to have a long-term vision. I've told people, sit down and produce, pre-produce. I think that came from a friend of mine on Clubhouse. We were talking about one time. I told him that I tell people to go pre-package three shows and he goes, no, I tell clients to package 20 shows, produce them, write them up, make a production sort of

thing for 20 shows. If they can't do that, then get out. And so I just see more zombie shows that are just going to be dead men walking, and mine will continue to be the tops. I think if I were to go out there, I would say 97% to 96% of podcasts are dead men walking or current zombies. That's a big number. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. I've been appearing on shows since I wrote my book in October,

trying to appear on shows. There's a lot I want to even go on. Yeah, it's ugly out there. So if you're going to get in this business, you want to get with somebody like you, an agency like you, who knows what they're doing, who can help you produce a good show. Because I think what people do is they don't know how to do all these different aspects that you guys provide. Producing the show, getting the guests, figuring

out how to make some money off of it, how to advertise yourself. And they get burnt out. They're like, this doesn't work. And so they give up. That's what most people do. When you look at what's the failure rate of people who start a business, it's what, 99% fail in the first two years. Same thing applies to podcasting or just about anything you want to try. People try and they're not really committed to it. It's one of our marriage doesn't have that sort of fallout, but it's more expensive to get out than get in. So I think it holds some people together. We found out how much people didn't like each other during the COVID crisis. Oh man, I married you, but I really wanted to be this close

to you. Anyway. So I don't know, what do you think the future is of the podcast? See over the next, I don't know, three, five, 10 years. Yeah, I agree. So similar to music, right? When, when the technology became such that you could literally make music from anywhere was great in some ways, but it was awful because there was a lot of really bad music. People who didn't know the first thing about writing a song, right? You couldn't tell your story out of a paper bag. But I think what it allowed is that freedom of creativity and expression. And I'm confident that cream always rises to the top. And so the people who are good, right, who did have talent,

they're going to be seen and be heard. Same thing in podcasting. I think at the consumer level, they're going to be a ton of bad podcasts. Like you said, people who just don't, who just aren't good. They should never have started a podcast, but there'll be some people who the technology will allow to be creative and to shine. I think from my perspective, I think that again, businesses are going to jump in with both feet and each, every business is going to have a blog, a website, and a podcast in some form. I think that area is going to continue to trend up. I think that the big guys are going to continue to dump money into it and buy companies and inject advertising

dollars into the industry until it flattens out. And then I think it'll even out in the people who have staying power, who are practicing the right practices from the beginning will last and the people who aren't won't. And see, I like what you do with your agency because you're helping people do the work. And I think that's what a lot of people don't realize. It is work. It is a job. Like I said, I'm the janitor of the show.

And it's a lot of sweat work. It's a lot of work. And a lot of people just think it's kind of goof off time. Or if you listen to their, like you said, stream of conscious podcast, it's just goofing off on the mic. Like, hey, how's it going? And they don't realize that you have to approach this from a work job, sweat sort of aspect. It's not easy. You can't just jump on this mic and try talking about it.

I see that with so many people that hit me up. I can talk. I like to talk. And you're like, no, you have to be interesting too. Or you have to be a good comedian. Like I have a lot of people go, your show is so funny. You're so funny. And I'm like, no, you have to be interesting too. Or you have to be a good comedian. Like I have a lot of people go, your show is so funny. You're so funny. And I'm like, I'm not really that funny because I study comedians, but I try to make guests

interesting. There's a lot going on my head. They don't realize how much production is going on my head at any given moment and, you know, what I'm watching the show. So, you know, you've got to have an agency like yours that helps people understand the work. Because if you don't approach it from that way, you're not going to be good. You're going to get frustrated. It's not going to work.

And you're going to quit and you're going to become a zombie show. And maybe a lot of people start businesses, several businesses, and maybe just find the right one. But practice makes perfect. So I don't want to fully discourage people. But, no, you just want to make sure you do it right. Like you talked about earlier, you've got to find a good coach. If you want a good coach, you've got to find the right coach that works for you. Some work, some don't.

But you've got to find what works for you. But you can't just approach it like, I'm just going to get a mic. I have so many people that are like, Chris, I bought a mic, and I bought a board, and now I've got a podcast. And you're like, okay, call me and call me here. Well, too. And I tell people, especially for business owners, you're busy. Every second, every minute, every hour you spend editing a show or writing show notes or doing anything other than growing your business.

If you include that plus opportunity costs, you're actually losing money by doing it. Oh yeah. I'm a jerk. I want to appear on a show that doesn't have more than a hundred episodes, mainly because if I'm going to spend two hours of my time and our booking and our half an hour preparing for the show, getting dressed up, getting my notes ready, seeing what their show's about. And then of course I've got the rap and then I always promote shows that I'm on. I'm not stupid. If you appear on someone's show for an hour, that's money you spend of your personal time, like you say. And so I promote the show. I make it a point to go do a referral testimonial on their Apple podcast so that that pumps the show up because that pumps my views up of my episode. I'm not stupid. I'm a real

particular person about what podcasts I appear on. There are some that I've done that are less than a hundred, but I know they've got a good audience. I look at their social media, know they have a good audience. They're good. They're good. They're good at hosting. And so I'm really particular. I turned down so many shows that would blow your mind because I value my time and I value that I go on. And yeah, I could probably get, I don't know, a hundred SEO links, I suppose, if I did it. Some people do that. There might be another guy named Chris Voss who does that, but there's just shows that you have to value your time. And whether you're a podcaster or the podcast guest, you've got to go,

is this worth my time? And for me, I'm like, are they going to pay their GoDaddy bill for the next three months? Is this show still going to be on the air? And there's so many that won't be. There's, like I said, I see this all the time when I watch guests' prior podcast episodes, and I'll be like, you go to the website and it's 404 or something. Like, yeah, they haven't paid their GoDaddy bill. You got that screen. You're like, that didn't work. So if you want to make content that's evergreen, whether you're a podcaster or whether you're a guest. And like I said, ours is to the test of time. And hopefully I always will.

I hope people, after I'm dead for 20 years, people are still watching stupid videos of mine on YouTube and consuming the podcast. They're like, this Chris Voss guy was really good. Too bad he died. So there you go. Let's go out. Anything more you want to plug in the show before we go out? Nope. Just the website.

Visit us, www.podcasttown.net. And again, I am always available via email, mayor at podcasttown.net. There you go. There you go. Can you, since you're the mayor and I'm the janitor, can, is there any way you can talk to somebody? Maybe I can, I don't know, maybe I got to run for office or something. But maybe I can get upgraded to head janitor.

I'm the chief bottle washer as well. That was like, that was what it was with all my companies. It was always like, they used to be, you're the CEO. I'm like, I'm also the janitor. No one picks up any of the garbage on the floor around here except for me because I'm worried about people tripping over and suing me. It seems like I do everything. So there you go.

Anyway, it's been wonderful to have you on the show. Give us your plugs so people can find you on the interwebs. You can find us on Facebook, Podcast Town, and also on our website. Those are the two places we hang out. There you go. Elsie, thank you very much for being on the show. We certainly appreciate it, man. Thank you so much for having me.

I had a blast. All right. And thanks to my audience for tuning in. Go to YouTube.com, 4ChessChrisVoss. Hit that bell notification button. If you haven't, you want to do that because it makes you part of a family. We're like a giant family. But the beautiful, the awesome part is we don't judge you.

I almost used beautiful twice there. Go to Goodreads.com, 4ChessChrisVoss, so I don't use the word beautiful in the third time. And also go to all the groups. LinkedIn is just killing it with the newsletter that we put out daily and the big 132,000 group. Go see what's going on over there. All the groups, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and all the crazy stuff that Chris Foss shows always up to. Stay tuned. Be good to each other. Stay safe.

And we'll see you guys next time.