The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Ethics & Why It Matters with Kirk Hazlett, APR, Fellow PRSA, Adjunct Professor, Communication, University of Tampa

Episode Date: July 21, 2020

Ethics & Why It Matters with Kirk Hazlett, APR, Fellow PRSA, Adjunct Professor, Communication, University of Tampa Kirk Hazlett Bio A public relations professional-turned-public relations professor, Kirk Hazlett, APR, Fellow PRSA, is Adjunct Professor of Communication at the University of Tampa (FL). He is passionate about ethical PR practice and currently serves as PRSA Tampa Bay’s first Ethics Officer. In addition, he is Chair of the Ethics Committee, Global Listening Centre, an international non-profit organization promoting the noble cause of listening worldwide and encouraging individuals, organizations and institutions to work together to meet the urgent challenges of society. Before moving into academia, Kirk practiced nonprofit and government public relations and marketing for more than 35 years in the US as well as Asia. During his professional career, he managed communication programs for healthcare and member services organizations as well as the US Army and US Air Force in Vietnam, the Philippines and the United States. He also provided consulting services for both the Manila and the Singapore Red Cross.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Because you're about to go on a monster education roller coaster with your brain now here's your host chris voss hi folks this is voss here from the chris voss show.com the chris voss show.com hey welcome to the chris voss show podcast we certainly appreciate you guys tuning in be sure to go subscribe to the show refer it to your friends neighbors relatives let them know get them involved in the show give us a reference on

itunes and tell them uh you know five stars hey we really love the chris voss show uh we have got always the best guests and some amazing uh talent that's uh here today and coming up uh a gentleman by the name of kirk hazlett uh k Kirk is a public relations professional who turned public relations professor, and he's an APR fellow PRSA. He's an adjunct professor of communication at the University of Tampa, Florida. He is passionate about ethical PR practice and currently serves as a PRSA Tampa Bay's first ethics officer. In addition, he is a chair to the Ethics Committee Global Listening Center, an international non-profit

organization promoting the noble cause of listening worldwide and encouraging individuals and organizations and institutions to work together to meet the urgent challenges of society. We'll get a chance to talk about his history, too, that got him here. Welcome to the show. How are you doing, Kirk? I'm doing very well, Chris, and I really appreciate this opportunity to visit with you today. Well, thank you very much for your time. You know, I had seen some postings of you.

I can't remember where they were on LinkedIn or on Twitter or something. And ethics has always been very important to me as we talked in the pre-show. As a realtor, I used to take a lot of ethics classes. In fact, I think every year they make you take one. And I really think a lot more people should be educated in them. Ethics should be taught in school and everything else. And we kind of live in this world where it's really hard to find ethics and truth anymore, especially with the games that countries can play and the social media craziness and stuff. So give us an origin story.

Well, give us your dot-coms actually first so people can go check you out. Well, let's see. I do have a blog where I sort of rant and rave about everything, and it's literally KirkHazlett.com. And I try to be regular about that about once a week post up something and I ramble down all kinds of roads here but ethics usually runs into it you can also find me on LinkedIn just look for Kirk Hazlett in fact I make it easy just look for Kirk Hazlett on LinkedIn on Twitter Facebook I'm kind of hanging out there making snarky remarks about everybody under the sun and having a good time but i just

one of my things here just to talking about that is with social media why am i so sort of aware of ethics because we're out there we're out there everywhere and people can find us every time someone gets in touch with me the first thing I do is check them out and not only just who they are but what are they saying and how are they saying so you know it's there love to see folks on LinkedIn if you want to find out some of the weird stuff I've been doing here our Twitter where I make snarky remarks about literally everybody everywhere. I don't much care what their position is. And then, you know, Facebook where I put pictures of all the great food that my wife cooks for me

all the time. So there you have it. Oh boy, that sounds good. I need to tune into your Facebook for sure. I love home cooked food and well-made food. That's one of my things. So, you know, to me, ethics is really important. I feel like this world, we've really seemed to have moved away from truth, honesty, trust, and ethics are

an important, what would you call them, like a pinnacle or a pillar that we probably need to give back in our society. So give me like an origin story. What got you to the point where you decided ethics was the career for you and what you are doing with your time now? Well, you know, for me, it goes way, way, way, way, way, way back. And from my professional career, I started off as active duty military, and I served in various places. I was in Vietnam for two years teaching English as a second language.

And I think there is one of the cases where I didn't know what I was seeing, but I got a sense of the importance of communicating the truth because – let me tell the story, and I'm just going to go ramble down this road here. Go right on that. Is my second year there, I was there for two years. A second year, I used to, I taught in the afternoon. So in the mornings, I would literally go from the base where I was stationed, outskirts of Saigon, go downtown, go to one of the Continental

Palace Hotel, which was a really, really nice colonial hotel, had a veranda. And I would sit there and I would read and have a cup of coffee and read two newspapers, Stars and Stripes, which was a newspaper published by the government, the military, for military, and International Herald Tribune, which was, quote, a real newspaper. And I would read stories about what was happening in Vietnam with the military. And Stars and Stripes would be on this, oh, the great U.S. military, we did yada, yada, yada, aren't we wonderful wonderful and then i would look at the international herald tribune and there'd be the america's getting its butt kicked here and i started thinking about i'm going why are there two different versions who's telling the truth and so that goes back to it is

truth's telling don't just tell me what happened. Tell me why it happened, what it means for me, and all of that. So early, early on, got a sense of it. And then as I went through my various, I was in the Philippines for a few years, a couple of bases in the States, but had a chance to see different levels of government communication. And truthfully, and this is maybe I'm a naive kind of person, but I was impressed with what the individuals for whom I worked, how they were so careful about making sure that what they told people was, in fact, the truth. So did that work for them? Worked for Army recruiting for a few years and then decided okay been there done that let's go do something else went to work for honeywell

electro-optics division in massachusetts where i was living at the time so now i'm in the technology era and started looking at how they were communicating. And I would say for the most part, pretty straightforward and everything. But once in a while, I would see something, I'd be like, why are we saying it that way? So again, it's like, okay. So jumping forward, as I went through different organizations, then I got into the nonprofit area and wound up in Hawaii working with the Blood Bank of Hawaii. Where there I saw the really got a clear view of what it's like to tell the truth. And that to me, for ethics, just to go back to where am I going with all this,

ethics for me is telling the truth for the right reasons. It's also, and I just say, use this with my students and everybody else, it's the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's just, if you keep that in mind, you don't have to always be trying to keep a checklist of what did I say? When and where, you know, you've told the truth. That's very true. That's very true.

You know, I, I, uh, that's actually one of the rules I have. Like my, my life's always been pretty complex and busy. It's not as busy.

It used to be in the early days when I had, you know, three or four companies running at the same time. But, but, uh, between juggling business which i love and my projects and my adventures and relationships i i don't have time to to try

and remember what the hell i lied about i just don't like like you know and my friends would always get busted on my wife or girlfriend i told her i wasn't at the bar with the friends having drinks and and then i forgot and then i mentioned it and she's like you told me or at the or something and he's like ah man and i'm like dude i don't i don't ever want to have to sit around and go like keep my list of lies and i've actually had friends two friends that were very trumpy and they were bullying a narcissist as well and they they were consummate liars i mean and one one was a business and then another was actually a friend and and uh and and it was just it was astounding to watch him i i just

treated him like he had a mental condition look at him being like you know i know you're a pathological liar and i just kind of look at you and go uh he's my friend he's he's a special friend um and uh but it was astounding the way that he would repeat lies that he would stack them that he would have to constantly reinforce them he would always be selling them to you and sometimes you know i just be like dude i know you're just this is a lie you built a lie and then you know this is and finally you just be like okay dude and finally i just had to exit those people out of my life but you know it's so it's so interesting how once you tell a lie then you've got to start stacking lies on top of it right you've got to substantiate it and then and then you end up in a pathway.

Like, I would kind of look at a mental map of what some of these people would do with their lives, and they would build a life that was just a complete stack of cards lie deck. And I would sit and look at it and be like, if you took out this one lie right here, like, their whole life would collapse. And so for me, it's really important because I can't remember everything I would ever lie about. And I think we get caught in taking little white lies, don't we?

I mean, we make little white lies or we make little embellishments maybe a little bit bigger than we are like you know well you know if i give you another quick little sort of just back to when i was like i think i was seven 17 years old or something and grew up in in rural georgia and the town close to us the bigger town the drive-in theater had an x-rated movie and a friend of mine and i go like we're going to go to this we're of mine and i go like we're going to go to this we're going to tell our parents that we're going to go out and go have a hamburger somewhere but we're going to go up and so we go boogieing up to to to the town it's macon georgia just to cut it i'm from dublin georgia um and get up to the drive-in and the cops have already

shut it down because it's oh boy it's you because it's the 1960s and I'm sorry, X-rated movies are not real big yet. So anyway, we go back home and we haven't been to the movie, but okay, let's go back home. And I walk in the house, my mother looks at me and she says, you went to Macon to see that movie tonight, did you? And I go, how did you know that? Well, Mrs. Blatter Blatter saw you and your friend driving by, recognized your car, and she called me to tell me. And you didn't even get in. Wow. But, you know, again, Chris, that goes back to what we're saying here is you tell these lies and you say, well, I'm not hurting anybody with it. And yeah, whatever it might be, you don't know that you don't know who you may be impacting with what you've done.

And, you know, you, you've taken one deeper step into the muck yourself. So there you have it. And then you've got to remember it forever. I mean, that's why, that's why my two narcissist friends, they, they repeat stuff. And you may have heard, you know, from somebody else in the, in our world, that's in the news narcissist friends, they repeat stuff. And you may have heard from somebody else in our world that's in the news a lot, they repeat stuff. Part of what they have to do is they have to keep repeating that lie. Not only to, you know, this is what I realized with my two narcissist friends.

I got really close to seeing what that's like in the White House. And so my two friends would just, they repeat the lie. Because number one, they got to remember it. So you can tell they're trying to remember how it was built and sometimes they'll vary it a little bit like they're testing and sometimes they're testing you they're like is he buying it and then and then repeating the lie like i honestly found you know i mean i had these friends for years i honestly knew that they were lying to me like 99% of the time. And sometimes I just tell them, look, man, I love you as a friend. You don't have to lie to me. You can just tell me how it is.

But, you know, we don't have to do this. We can – you don't have to do this with me. Can we get like an exclusion zone for the Christmas relationship? But, no, that was impossible. And so, you know, I just look at them and I just smile and go, well, that's cute. Your little lie there. I know that's, you know, just the biggest crackhead lie I've ever heard. But what was my point?

I knew that they, oh, the repetition. And honestly, even though I knew they were malignant narcissists and they were repeating a lie to me, I got to tell you, after a time, after a time of repetition, I started to kind of go, well, maybe they're right. And I'd be like, Hey, well, knock that off. And so they do that repetition to, to, to have to do it and, and sell it, you know, and everything else. And, and they just wear everyone down around them with the lie. But, you know, and it's interesting to me, and I think you're right.

A lot of people have the attitude that, well, this doesn't really hurt anybody. It's a little white lie. For me in business, for me in authenticity, for what I do in social media and being out there as a social sort of public person, authenticity is something that was very important to me. And so I've tried to be as honest as I possibly can at all times. I'm not sure if I'm perfect, but sometimes I've embellished a little bit, or sometimes you kind of mock up a story a little bit or sometimes you you um you kind of mock up a story a little bit i remember when brian williams used to have that problem where he was uh he was telling a story that was a little bit too um you know a little bit too mocked up about uh something that he was doing uh some i

think it was a helicopter flight or taking fire somewhere or something but because people trusted him so much as a newscaster and a newsman just telling those slight slight little lies you know got him busted and and almost taken off the air permanently now he's kind of at the 11 o'clock hour on msnbc so they kind of threw him in the back but but uh i don't know i mean is there a good way to espouse to people why truth matters and why you shouldn't lie as much as you can? I'm not one for standing up there and lecturing to people this is what you should do. But you're asking a very valid point here. So what do you do?

And the way I look at it is I try to live my life as an example. And, yeah, I'm not perfect. So, you know, nobody's perfect. But I try to do the best things I possibly can. And from a personal, just goes back to day one for me, if I do something that I think may be questionable, I try to help you understand why I'm doing this. So it's just, you know, it's that, but, you know, and, but it doesn't hurt to remind people and just sort of segue over into the Public Relations Society of America, PRSA, on the national level and on the local chapter level, is we try to help our members understand why this is important. One of the I'm trying to be blanking on words here. It's okay, I do that all the time. It's like, what's your name? I don't know.

One of the hallmarks of an ethical professional or why you do this is because it enhances the profession. And this goes, you know, you're talking about being a realtor from the public relations side. I want people to say, oh, okay, he is a public relations person. By default, he is a good person. I know he's ethical.

I would love for that to be the norm. Universally, it's not. But at least we keep reminding our members and by default, the publics that they deal with, that we do have a code of ethics that says, these are the things that if you do them, you will be acting ethically. And, you know, and all you can do, you can't go around door to door and be an ethics police. I'm thinking about one of the cable providers that I keep seeing down here in the Tampa area, coming to the door, there's a, there's this couple in there, they had this piece of paper and they say,

what is this? And the, one of the guys looks at him and says, it's a cable bill, ma'am. And then they go through this, this thing about how they're being ripped off by the cable company, yada, yada, yada. Oh yeah. Yeah. And, but the thing is, if I know, if you are talking about my profession and you have doubts about what we are doing, then I need to take steps to try to change it the best I can. Again, you look at PRSA, I mean, we've got 24,000 members. It's kind of hard for me to go door to door and say, okay, everybody, this is what you should do.

But at least have it out there so that if somebody says, well, how about this? The member can say, here is what I believe in because this is what I feel like marks me as a true professional, not as a sort of a flying bag stab in the back kind of person. So you work with the university of Tampa for ethics. Do you, do you just teach ethics at the school or do you, or do you, do you oversee some function to try and make sure that the organization operates in an ethical sort of fashion? As much as I would love to poke my nose into everything that they're doing, as an adjunct professor there, I'm a part-timer,

but what I do, we have at the University of Tampa, the Sykes Business School has a center for ethics, and it's part of their business curriculum, et cetera. I actually have a very good relationship with everyone within the Ethics Center. I write articles for their newsletters and try to do that. And with the students, with our Public Relations Student Association, our American Marketing Association chapter here, is going to this, being that sort of the voice for ethics. One thing in particular right now with the coronavirus and all of that, and this, you say, what has that ethics got to do with that? Telling you the truth

about this. And, you know, you've seen it, I've seen it on national news and everything else that certain people one of whom I've I said seven years ago I would never ever say his name again but he's just in the highest position within the government within the United States of America you know who said says oh there's not a problem it will go away don't need to worry about this. And that's bogus. Yeah. Well, we certainly found that out the hard way, haven't we? We've done that. But the thing is, but you also have to say, okay, I need to tell the truth on this, but how do I tell the truth so that I don't scare the dick inside of everybody who hears it? But I don't also create false expectations. And I think there's where you have to be mindful.

How are we saying this? What are we saying? And following through, not only do you say it, but then you do it. The power of your word, would you say? Yeah, I would say that's exactly what it is. And I want people, you you know this is to me for communication communicators is just what you're saying there is when somebody hears what i say at least they will their first reaction is going to be okay kirk said that i need to think about that and see what it really means for me instead of that's ridiculous that's another idiotic thing that he said here that doesn't have any kind of basis in reality but you know it's you how are you impacting the the bigger audience with your actions with your words

with everything else so so those have uh those have an impact. For me, especially being a communicator and someone who's aligned, authenticity is important. The power of my words is important so that when people hear me speak, they know it matters. One of the challenges I've had is if I have a friend who lies from time to time, and usually when they tell a lie, it usually a big lie um you know they don't lie consistently like a narcissist does but um you know they're they're pretty consistent where when they tell you something like hey i just bought a new car oh yeah you bought a new car nah man i didn't buy and what they'll do is they'll be like oh yeah it was a uh 19 or 2010 or two what year is it 2020 uh bmw 5 series so yeah and you're like wow okay man that's awesome wow and they'll like tell you the whole story and then they'll like they think it's funny

because they think you're gonna prank you and then later you find out like wait were you joking about that and like they won't tell you like right, right away. Like, most people go, nah, just screw me, man. I'm just doing that. Like, later you'll find out they lied. And then the problem is they do that so often. They become like the boy who cried wolf. I mean, I guess a lot of people don't grow up with that story anymore like you and I did back in the day. But you cry wolf too many times.

You make the power of your word. You dissolve the power of your word, I suppose, is one way to put it. And then you gain repetition where people go, yeah, you can't trust anything that guy says. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on with that, dude. And so I think it's important. I think ethics are really important to people. And now in a day where, in an age where lying seems to be huge,

where you have dissemination of information, whether it's from countries that are trying to destroy us by social media posts that are like, yeah, don't wear a mask. Yeah, go ahead don't uh go ahead make out with everybody on the beach don't worry about getting um and then you have you know anti-vaxxers you have these movements of people that uh you know end up you see these deaths or outbreaks like the measle outbreak was really huge because of the anti-vaxxer movement and now covid a lot of the people that i'm seeing on facebook that are that are also the anti-vaxxer movement and now COVID a lot of the people that I'm seeing on Facebook that are,

that are also the anti-maskers are the are the anti-vaccine people. And some, some are saying they won't even take a vaccine. If they, if they get the thing if they, if they if they come up with a vaccine and you're just like, Holy crap, have you read what this COVID? I mean, every time I read something about this COVID stuff, it's just terrorizing. And the long-term damage of it, we still don't even know. There's people that have what's called glass lung. People lost kidneys and livers.

This is like, this is no kidding around. It's not. Again, what we need is people at a top level. I'm just using that. And when they say this, they're saying it based on fact. They're saying it based on scientific research. They're saying it based on their own personal experiences. And when you see them say it, you have to say, you know, wow, she said that.

I could tell in there. Go back. I'm going to use another quick story from when I was interviewing at the Blood Bank of Hawaii. And I was interviewing with a president. And by that time, I've already worked for two or three different presidents of different companies and stuff and it's like just I'm not that impressed by the fact she's president but I look in her eyes and I could see this fire she's talking about what what we would be doing to help the patients of Hawaii and I'm going this lady absolutely gets it she She lives what she does. And that's what we,

this to me, again, taking to the ethical side here is when she said something, the people who saw that on television or read it would go, if the doctor says this, it is the truth. And I must do what she says, period, end of sentence.

So it's, you live it, you breathe it. It's part of you. Yeah. And, and I must do what she says, period, end of sentence. So you live it, you breathe it, it's part of you. Yeah, and I mean, to me, it's so easy to just tell the truth. It's, you know, like I said, I'm especially not my age because I can't remember half the time I told the truth about what I told the truth about, let alone, you know, a stack of lies. Where were you last Saturday? What did I tell her? I told her I was at church when I was really at the bar with friends.

You know, it's the power of your word is really important. I think a lot of people need to take a look at ethics. Do you find that ethics is a learned trait? Does it come from the influence of your parenting, the ethics or morals they taught you? I don't even think – is ethics a moral or is it more of a trait? That's a good question. You know, digging deep into it, I think it is a moral thing.

It's deep within you you i think you are born either ethic with an ethical tendency or not i mean you you see people from you know when they're six years old and they're lying through their teeth and go like where'd you learn that one um but it also can be learned from the sense of, oh, okay. And I use myself as an example of that one. Growing up in my family, we were always taught to do the right thing and tell the truth, just from the get-go.

But then later on, when I studied ethics, and I go, oh, okay, that's why that's important. I knew it was important, but if you were to say, Kirk, why, I would not be able to say that. I'd just say, because it's what I do. So if you can introduce it, you're not going, not everyone is going to go, okay, fine, thank you so much. I will be ethical from here on out.

They're going to say, you know, it's a bunch of baloney. But all you can do is do the best you can do. Make it obvious that you believe in this. When you say things, tell people, this is why I am saying it. This is the rationale for it. But also be open to, be willing to hear rebuttal and be able to say, well, yeah, I see you don't believe in or don't accept what I'm saying here. Why is that? And see if you can have a conversation.

You know, my parents really drilled it into me to be honest and tell the truth. If I was caught telling a lie, I was pretty seriously punished. In fact, one of the things they did that that really helped that stick was like if i like say i said something crappy to my teacher or church leader or or you know i just did anything in my life uh they would make me go apologize to that person and like stand there and it was hard you know i'd be crying like uh but you know what? I learned some very important lessons, and I learned not to be a lion, even whatever, and I learned that truth was important and stuff like that. I know that in my past when I've seen some kids raised by some folks

that have trouble with the truth that tend to tell, you know, either a lot of white lies because I think we all white lie a little bit we all embellish a little bit uh people you know it's it's found when people date that they there's a bit of puffery you know that they put into their the to attract their spouse and you know six months later after you're dating someone you're like oh you don't really own a million dollars in a boat and you know and you know six months later after you're dating someone you're like oh you don't really own a million dollars in a boat and you know and you know there's some of that you see that in you see that in uh in nature you know the puffery of of of what people do to to breed and from a basic sense but but but still when it comes to real ethics, then, uh, then people get hurt. Um, like one time I saw, uh, we had someone who worked for our companies, uh, and, uh, what was funny is we'd

actually offered him stock in our companies and, um, uh, to try and make him a better, uh, more integrated partner. Cause he was a fairly good partner, but he never took us up on it. And later we found out that he had, when he was dating somebody, he had told them that he was a partner in our company, and that he had all this money and he was successful, when he was really just an employee. And what was interesting was, you know, I guess he thought it would never hurt anybody. Well, the problem was once he got married, his wife started looking around going, hey, man, where's these checks?

You know, and where's this job you're supposed to be going to every day? And then he had to come up with another lie to substantiate that lie. Well, oh, Chris and his partners stole the company out from under me. And, you know, whatever. And then, you know, and so I had found out about it round about through a christmas letter that had been sent to some people in my family uh that went there's a letter going around from this guy's wife who says you guys stole the company from him and that he was he he like owned like owned and ran the, your guys's company. And, and we found out about through this extraordinary sort of roundabout. And so I had to call him on the carpet and be like, what's going on. But you know, this is the problem. The,

the one lie you go, Oh, who's going to hurt to do this lie. You know, I meet this girl, whatever. And, you know, and then the lie compounds and compounds, and then she's out spreading, you know, just basically, uh, know, just basically spreading lies about her company, which almost was slander. But, you know, I mean, whatever, it's somebody's Christmas letter. But, you know, it's a good example there of how even in those boisterous times of attracting a make, we tell some lies that people find out later. You know, I've learned to actually watch people when I date or when I meet them or interview them for a job, and any sort of discrepancy or misinformation or lies I find on the resume,

that's just an indication of the type of person I want to have work for me. That's it. To your point there, in today's world it is so very easy to find out about people and i had a friend one time just to say talking about that she was going in for an interview with her new boss and uh she was a senior level banking person. And she said, I'm kind of really crazy busy. Can you find out anything about my boss just so that I would know something about him? It was like a quarter to 12. I called her back in 10 minutes.

I said, 10 minutes time, I was able to find out his name, his wife's name, the names of his two kids, the titles of the last three speeches that he had given on behalf of his company, the number of the Boy Scout troop, which he was a scout master. So again, it's easy, particularly in today's world, to find out that depth of information information about people. And yeah, if I catch you in a lie or an untruth, if I don't want to go too strong on this, I'm going to question everything else that you do as well. And that to me is the ethical challenge here.

Yeah. I'm really curious how much of it is learned, how much of it is character behavior. Like you say, I know people, you you know are kind of born into their characters when they're born and and there always seems to be people that kind of they're always pushing the edge of things um but from what i've seen largely there a lot of it comes from their parents they they take it from their parents like usually the little lie people are actually the bigger lie or the people that you know they tell you they embellish a lot of stories and you find out later they were lying and they just think it's funny. They're just like, oh, yeah, I just screw with you. But you're like, dude, I've had times where people have lied to me about someone being concerned about something. And I've called that person up and said, hey, I guess I need to apologize to you. Cause I was told that, that, that was offensive to you. Uh, and you were upset by that. And like, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, you know, your husband told me this and it ends up being extraordinarily embarrassing moment for everyone. Um, and, and, and turns out, you know, I was just being lied to, and I don't know why that was being put up.

You know, it's really interesting to me, some people that lie that don't really even have to lie. It's why, you know, it's so funny. It reminded me of a similar story when I mentioned working with the intelligence school. And I had a young Army enlisted person who was my assistant. She really didn't want to work for a civilian. It was tough noogies.

I'm the public affairs officer, live with it. She comes in, she came in one day and she looked at me and we had our school, which was literally an accredited school. Then we had the brigade where the students lived and ate lunch, you know, ate and all that kind of stuff. And she came in and said, the sergeant major up in the brigade is upset with you. And I go, really? Okay. And then I got up and put on my coat and she looks at me and just

looks, she said, where are you going? I'm going to go talk to the sergeant major. And I went and drove up to his office and walked in. I had never met him before, so I introduced myself. And he sort of said, you know, what can I do for you? And I said, I understand you've got a problem. And he looked at me. The look told me immediately she lied. Oh, wow.

But, again, this is it. As I tell my students all the time, you lie to me, I will find out. That's the funny thing. You know, it's a great point because eventually the truth does come out. Like, you can lie. Like, a lot of our stuff that's going on in government or even city governments or, you know you i mean you see stuff like nixon's a great example there was a there was a lot of stuff he

was lying and covering up i mean most people didn't even know nixon was you know anti-semitic and a racist and and they didn't even know he swore like a sailor like everyone a lot of people back then seemed to think nixon was like was like oh he's like you know jesus or something and then you know you listen to tapes and you're like holy crap you know and the truth does come out and you have to you know i i think just it's really important for people to i guess be self-actualized or or look at their internal choices that they make. But I think it has to start at a really young age or something. I don't know.

I think, you know, it has to and then has to be reinforced throughout life. And that's where I look at it. I know I keep saying my students today, but even back when I was working in PR and had people working for me, is I wanted to set an example of having an understanding of what we truly believe in and then making a conscious effort to do what we say. And, you know, they say actions speak louder than words. So I'm going to be a good person.

I'm going to do these good things for the right reasons. And then, you know, you can follow my examples. And this is you and I both have been talking about, you know, our parents setting this example for us. And yeah, when I go out of this world here, I want to be able to say, yeah, I made my mother, my dad proud. I did the right things for the right reasons. But as professionals, we have to do the same thing because others are looking to us. So it's baby steps. Yeah. Understanding, being able to verbalize so that if somebody asks you why, and then doing it.

Recognizing why it's important and everything else. So, Kirk, give me your plug so we can see what.com is looking on up again. Okay. Well, my blog is literally kirirkhazlett.com. Then you can find me on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, and LinkedIn, Kirk Hazlett. I try to keep it simple here and would love to hear from folks. If you've got thoughts on ethics or anything else under the sun, if I don't know the answer, I'll make it up and you'll never know the difference. All right. Well, sounds good. Thanks for being on the show, Kirk, and helping us out. Hopefully,

you can make this world a more ethical place. Be sure to my audience to refer the show to friends, relatives, neighbors. You can check all that out. Go to youtube.com. We see a lot of the video interviews that we do at youtube.com. Fortunately, that's Chris Voss. Thanks to my audience. Stay safe and we'll see you next time.