The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – False Claims: One Insider’s Impossible Battle Against Big Pharma Corruption by Lisa Pratta

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

False Claims: One Insider's Impossible Battle Against Big Pharma Corruption by Lisa Pratta Amazon.com Lisapratta.com In Big Pharma, lives are secondary to profit margins. But Lisa Pratta stood her ground—risking everything to expose the lies of a billion-dollar pharmaceutical business mired in deception, greed, and the systemic abuse of both patients and employees As a rising star in pharmaceutical sales, Lisa Pratta wanted to believe that she was helping improve the lives of people who suffered from illness. But as she climbed the corporate ladder, she uncovered a sinister world of bribery, fraud, and sexual harassment—all papered over with a thin veneer of corporate respectability. At Questcor Pharmaceuticals, Lisa found herself at a small company with a blockbuster drug that could have been a lifeline for patients suffering from multiple sclerosis—that is, if it was prescribed properly. But instead, Questcor chose profits over patients, training its sales force to push untested treatment regimens with the sole purpose of beating its competition. Lisa recognized this as not only dangerous but highly illegal. In the midst of this controversy, Questcor arbitrarily inflated the drug’s price to a jaw-dropping $28,000 per vial. Torn between her morals and the financial stability the job provided for her special-needs son, Lisa made a decision that would change her life forever: she reported the fraudulent practices of the company to the federal government. For nearly a decade, she led a double life—feeding insider information to the Department of Justice while enduring the relentless demands of her company to sell their drug using illegal marketing tactics. She faced constant fear of exposure, knowing that the government offered her no protection if her secrets were revealed. Nonetheless, Lisa pressed on, determined to hold Questcor accountable for the laws they were breaking and the lives they were endangering. This incredible true story offers a sobering look at the unscrupulous sales methods used by America’s corrupt pharmaceutical industry, spotlights the levers they pull to extract ludicrous profits from the sick and dying, and is a page-turning portrait of one woman’s heroic fight against Big Pharma and a mother’s struggle to protect her family.About the author Lisa Pratta was a top-selling pharmaceutical and biotech sales representative for thirty-two years, helping to pave the way for women in the field, only to see the entire in-dustry corrode with sexual harassment and fraud. Lisa was an honors graduate of Albright College before launching her career at pharma giants such as Astra Zeneca, Serono, and Questcor/Mallinckrodt. In 2012, while still employed at Questcor, Lisa became a whistle-blower reporting off-label prescriptions and Medicare fraud to the United States government and went under-cover for nearly a decade. She is a single mother of two, including a special-needs son.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries and motivators. Get ready, get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Cause you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster with your brain.

Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Hi folks, it's Voss here from the Chris Voss Show. Dot com. The Chris Voss Show. Ladies and gentlemen, they are the ladies things that makes official welcome to the big show. As always, the Chris V, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies

and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and

gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen,

ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and and cathartic events that they overcame and they're here to help you make your life better damn it or else I don't know what that means. Here we have an amazing young lady on the show today we're talking about her hot new book that comes off the shelf June 3rd 2025 it is called False Claims One Insider's Impossible Battle Against Big Pharma Corruption June 3rd 2025 by Lisa Prada we're gonna be talking to her about the insights on the book and some of her experience of life. She was a top selling pharmaceutical and biotech sales representative for 32

years, helping pave the way for women in the field, only to see the entire industry corrode with sexual harassment and fraud. Lisa was an honors graduate of Albright College before launching her career at pharma giants such as AstraZeneca, Sereno, Sereno? Lisa Larkin Sereno. Pete Slauson Sereno. Pete Slauson And Questcor, I can't pronounce that last. Lisa Larkin Questcor, Melon…

Lisa Larkin Melancrot. Pete Slauson Melancrot. I knew that. Lisa Larkin It took me a while too. That's quite the, where are you from? Melon crud. I think I, is, I think, is that something happens to watermelons? I used to say when they said we were being brought out, I said, that's too many consonants. We have to go back on hooked on phonics. Yeah. No kidding. Just call it Bob. Uh, in also employed at Quest Corps, she became a whistleblower, reporting off-label prescriptions and Medicare fraud to the US government and went

undercover for nearly a decade. She's a single mother of two, including a special needs son. Welcome to the story, Lisa. Welcome to the show, Lisa. How are you? Good. Great. And thank you for having me, Chris. Pete Thank you for coming. We really appreciate it. Give us any dot coms, where do you want people to find out more about you on the interwebs? Lisa Pratt Well, there's several spots. My website, if you want to contact me is lisapratt at yahoo.com, on Truth Social, ex-formally Twitter, I'm on Truth Social, ex-formerly Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. And the book can be ordered through, you know, HarperCollins website, Amazon, or Barnes & Noble. Pete Slauson So, give us a $30,000 review.

What's inside your new book? Well, three quarters of the book has to do with the DOJ case and going undercover. But I think what's really critical is the first quarter of the book that kind of describes how I became that strong person with character, morals, and integrity. And, and mostly inner strength strength because to go undercover takes a special kind of person. And it really goes back to the beginning where I had two horrific parents and experienced sexual, physical and mental abuse. So in the 60s and 70s, there was nobody there

to advocate for you. You were on your own. And it was a struggle to really survive. And fast forward, going into school, I kind of became an advocate for those that had no friends and those that were being bullied because I lived it at home. So the key to getting out of that environment was to go to college, you know, because we

were from a poor household. And I think after college, you know, it was difficult because I had all these loans. But what really formulated my integrity and character was my Nona Residi, who had a farm. And I spent every summer working on her farm. And I think her personality and her teachings led me to living a moral, you know, legal life in terms of doing what's right and doing things the right way. If it wasn't for her, I don't know where I would be. You know, and she was the first strong female and the only one that owned 3,000 acres in the state of New Jersey, starting in the 1930s. So she was an amazing role model.

And she was the first one to say, you will be the first one to be arrested if you do anything wrong. When you get out of college and when you go to school. And I never forgot that. She said, always keep your nose clean. Do things the right way. Pete Slauson The one thing people who go through childhood trauma seem to do is they react poorly to being gaslit or manipulated or they try, excuse me, I think they try and overcompensate

for or compensate for a right and wrong and they try and establish boundaries of what is right and what is wrong and it sounds like you were taught that even though your childhood experience was traumatic. Well, yes. And back then, there was no counseling. No one listened to you. I was crying wolf in school. And my father, he was the head of the Knights of Columbus. Well, who's going to argue with that? But when the doors were closed, all hell broke loose. But when the doors were closed, all hell broke loose. So if it wasn't for her, you know, mentoring me, she knew what was going on, but there was nothing she could do or anybody could do. Because she was married to my father's father, and she felt the same way about him.

She made a mistake. So, you know, my thoughts were, I am going to survive, I am going to be successful, and I am going to have a good life, try to make money and help other people who are maybe in the same situation that I was in. So you know, it was a journey in terms of I always was friends with the child who was bullied. You know, I always took the loner who had no friends, and I stood up for those who had no voice. So fast forward, you know, getting out of college and getting into pharma sales. And I saw all that sexual harassment. And I'm thinking, well, I have a lot of experience

in terms of how to fight those situations. But what blew me away, because you know, I was like, Oh, this is going to be like leave it to be for the white picket fence. You know, even though I was the first woman hired, everybody does things legal, ethically, moral, you know, we're all professionals, no matter what sex you were. Well, that was untrue. I saw the fraud, I saw the kickbacks, I started to see bribes. And all I could hear is my grandmother, my nonna saying, you're the first one that's going to be locked up if you do

anything illegal. Her her analogy was you steal a piece of bubble gum, you're going to get arrested when I was little. So I knew that I had to do things the right way and also try to fight back. So you not be a follower, but be a leader. And so you, you joined the pharmaceutical companies out of college. Correct. And so at what time period is this in? Well, this was my third job.

Okay. Because they would not hire a woman right out of college. You know, I tried to get into pharmaceutical sales, but they basically told me we only hire men. So I had a friend, see back then your health insurance only lasted six months on your parents. So I had to find a job because I had to get health insurance. It wasn't until the age of 26. So what happened was is I had a friend whose father was a burn surgeon in Philadelphia and he said there's this national diabetes research interchange that needs a tissue procurement Procurement Coordinator, AKA I did autopsies for a year. I procured tissue, like transplant or autopsy tissue for diabetes research. But it carried

science experience and I had health insurance. And then after that, I still tried to apply for a pharma position. And back then there was no, you know, online, there were no computers. So I saw an advertisement in the paper that said United Healthcare is recruiting physician coordinators. And I said, aha, that's kind of like farm experience because I'm getting doctors to join this managed care program. And I got hired. Oh, hence I had two years of experience of managed care. So in 85 is when I got hired as a farmer rep. Pete Slauson Uh-huh. And that was the first time, the first job?

Dr. Jennifer Linn You mean, it was my third job at first pharmaceutical time? Pete Slauson Yeah. Dr. Jennifer Linn Yes. Pete Slauson Okay. So, third job, first pharmaceutical. Okay. Dr. Jennifer Linn Yes. Pete Slauson So, how does that experience turn out? When did things start going off the rails?

Dr. Jennifer Linn Well, I mean, the misogyny and the sexism, Uh, so how does that experience turn out? When did things start going off the rails? Well, I mean, the misogyny and the sexism was immediate, but I had a phenomenal first manager and mentor who protected me as a woman and he says, you stay with me, I'm protecting you, But about a year later, I was in a doctor's office and I ran into a sero rep who saw cardiovascular medicine and he said, yeah, we're taking the doctors to Bimini to go snorkeling and scuba diving. And I was speechless. And I called my manager on a payphone, because there were no cell phones, and I said, did you hear about this? And that's how, you know, the trips and all started with one company.

So tell me what this is, the experience of you is in this. Is this the first time you hear about this and you start going, I don't know, my grandmother raised me not to do anything illegal. This sounds kind of unethical and questionable. Well, my eyes were like saucers until my company, which was a Carter Wallace, starting getting these ideas of Dr. Lunches, Dine and Dash, you know, I mean, it just exploded. And my line was, I don't feel comfortable doing this.

If I said I won't do it, it's considered insubordination and HR who is not your friend would get rid of you. Yeah, so I you know many times that line in my pharmaceutical career held. There were a few times where they let me go. Oh really? Oh yeah. Because to them that was in support nation. Okay.

And then when do you reach the point where you're, you're, you decide to turn the state's evidence or technically federal? Well, basically, um, a colleague, mine, his name is Pete in the book. A colleague of mine, his name is Pete in the book, he was fired and he called me and said, hey, you're still working for Quest Corps. I need you to come in because you could provide a lot more evidence working for the case. So of course, I was divorced. I had a special needs son. I mean, I had a lot of debt from the divorce and I needed to work. So I never make a decision right away. So I say, give me a

week maximum. I have to think about it. And that week I had a patient program, which is where Questcor and other companies have physicians or nurses talk to the patients about a drug. Usually it's off label and the patients go back to their doctor and demand the drug. And I had this patient program and I was going, it was for multiple sclerosis patients. I was going to the bathroom and this woman, her name is Melanie, was about

32 years old. She followed me and she had a cane. And before I got in the bathroom, she said, Lisa, is Actar going to help me? And I also learned she was diagnosed with lymphoma. She said, is this drug going to make me better? And as a sales rep, only the physician can answer that question. So I told her, yeah, you know, the corporate line, you have to ask, you know, the doctor who's given the talk or your family neurologist, I went in the bathroom, I lost it, I broke down. And it took me a while to get my act together to come back. And after that dinner, I called Pete and I said, I'm in. Who's going to fight for these patients because Quest Core was dosing the drug at a suboptimal

dose, and the patients who had an attack never got better. They were getting worse. They were getting worse. Yes. And did you ever brought that up to the management or said, you know, hey, this guy is going to be working or is it just obvious that they weren't going to care? They were all in on, I call it the Amway train. I noticed it training. I'm like, wait a second. The patients when they have an attack or treated with act are and they have to be on it three or

four weeks, not five days. Well, Medicare wasn't going to pay for it unless they compared it to a steroid, which was used for three to four days. So when I first heard that in training, I went, what did I do taking this job? So I was friends with private investigators, cops, et cetera, lawyers. And they said, you know, I discussed it with friends. They said, you have to sell by the package insert, which I always did. And I would say, to my manager, my line, I don't feel comfortable selling off label. I don't. And I told them I don't look good in orange if I go to jail and the food is terrible. But this, like I was in shock because this was the worst.

These people, if with an MS patient, if you have an attack, the key is to treat that attack and get them back to baseline. So they don't progress in their disease. With this drug, they felt better, but they never got back to baseline. And I would see these people come back to these patient programs. First they were walking, then they came in with a cane, then they went to a wheelchair. So I knew they were progressing in their disease and had taken Actthar subtherapeutically.

Wow. It was terrible. Yeah. You know, and you have a special needs son. How does this shape, tell us about that and how that shaped your perspective and what you decided to do ultimately. Dr. Edna Friedman Well, at about eight weeks, my son started having febrile seizures that were 30 minutes long. And some of them, they required helicopter visits to formally AI DuPont is where we started. And, you know, back then, nobody really knew how to

diagnose autism. He's 27 now. So I basically was the advocate in order to find a diagnosis in order to find a diagnosis, in order to find treatment and also education. And it brought me to my knees. I mean, because there wasn't a diagnosis, but eventually we found Dr. Weller, who was at University of Pennsylvania, who finally, you know, he's a fusion of diagnosis, not just autism. He's oppositional defiant. So that was hard and he has explosive personality. at home because it could be dangerous. And with Dr. Weller was the path to getting him a diagnosis and under control. But that, you know, advocating him, advocating him to go

to a special school could take its toll, but I had to. He was my son. So when the opportunity came to be a whistleblower, I've been there for ultimate stress. I knew being a whistleblower, this isn't over in six months. So having been abused, having advocated for those that don't have a voice and the piece de resistance is my son. I was ready. Yeah, I was more than ready. Because these MS patients, I equated to my son, they had no voice, he was getting better, they were getting worse. So when Pete, my colleague who got fired, asked me, it was an easy choice. It was a gift to be able to do this. Pete Slauson Definitely. I can see how that would influence you as the mother of a son and having to advocate and, you know, see what their struggle was. And yeah.

So you, I mean, did you struggle with it? Cause I'm interested in the human element of this. Did you struggle with, I mean, going, going state, going, you know, going on the witness program with the feds, I don't know if you were officially on the witness program or what your status was, but doing that, turning states evidence or federal evidence, that's a big decision, right?

I mean, how did you approach that? Mary F. Kennedy- Well, I said, who is going to speak for these people? All the companies I worked for were corrupt. Nobody spoke for me, you know, who is going to help them, somebody has to. And I said, you know, I'm going to roll the dice, like playing craps, I have to do it. I knew that I would be Jane Doe for a while. So I'll deal with going public later. I didn't, I didn't think about that. I just had to disassociate my emotions and think of it as a third job.

And I just said, I'm going to be relentless and bring Quest Corps down. I want them to their knees for what they've done. Pete Slauson Good. I mean, you do stuff illegal? You got that coming. But it's interesting, like I said, how children of trauma tend to become bully of bullies, or they defend other people, or they defend other people or they see they see other people being victimized through their eyes and they know what that's like and they decide that they're going to stop that it's Kind of a way of it's kind of way of trying to repair what was done to you in a way I think so. Yeah, and so, you know right and wrong becomes more important If people gaslight you, it tends to

trigger people in trauma because, you know, they were gaslighted. It basically just reenacts their trauma. And the reason I talk about this is we discussed this a lot on the show about trauma and different issues people have and how much their childhood shapes their arc through life. childhood shapes their arc through life. So you turn to States Evidence, or I keep saying States Evidence, take a Federal Evidence, and what is that experience like? I mean, are you wearing wires? Is he nervous? Mary F. Kennedy- I volunteered. No, I wasn't nervous because in my opinion, you know, I, you know, I've never had people say that you have done great or a good job. And I told my two key tam attorneys that I am going to be the DOJ's best relator. I am moldable. I follow advice, which I did.

I, you know, even as an employee, I was like Gumby. I can, you know, I'm alpha, but I can listen and take criticism. You know, criticism. And I listened to my two attorneys because I knew they were the experts. So I looked at it as a job and I, you know, there are thousands and thousands of pages of evidence that I faxed. And notes I wrote on my pants at meetings. On the under, I ruined pants by writing notes.

I wrote them on cocktail napkins. I wrote things like in school, you know, underneath your palm in the grade school, you write a note, show somebody. But the DOJ said we have so much evidence. I volunteered to be wired. They said we've got a plethora of evidence. Wow. I volunteered. I was going to do everything in my power. And one of the things they told me is you have to really, this is, you know, a marathon and it could go a long time and they were correct. You just have to stay focused and not let your head make you go crazy. Because a lot of whistleblowers that they had wound up being hospitalized. And having mental breakdowns. Yes. Pete Slauson I can see that. I mean, it's stressful. You watch movies where

I mean, it's stressful. You watch movies where people wear a wire and they dramatize. You know, especially with the mob, I would be worried, you know, if somebody finds out, you know, they don't want their money mucked up, they may decide for violence and there's a risk there. Well, when I became public, it was a different story. I was getting drive-bys, hangups. Really? I got Rottweilers.

Really? And I said, look, can they help me? No. But if you die, the government can get three times the amount of money. So I was like, no, I'm on my own. I even asked my local cops to do control and they thought it was a joke. Pete Slauson Wow. Julie Boudreau You know, like, I'm a single parent, so I started collecting Rottweilers.

Pete Slauson Wow. So, when you went public or the courts went public with it. What was the first step out that the public became aware of your, or the people you were turning in became aware of what you were doing? Oh, I was getting doctors trying to call. I mean, my phone was blowing up. And then I was getting drive-bys, stop, look at my house and it wasn't for sale. So I called my key tam attorneys and I said, talk to the DOJ. You know, I'm all by myself here. And they said, we don't protect people. And I'm like, no, but if you die, we'll get three times the amount. Pete We actually want you to die so we'll help you.

Kirsten Yes. Pete Okay. Wow. Kirsten So, you know, I said, well, you know, being a child, that abused child and all, I'm on my own. Pete Yeah. You're kind of used to defending yourself, yeah. Kirsten Yeah.

So, I got Rottweilers. Pete That'll do it. You're kind of used to defending yourself, yeah. Yeah. So I got Rottweilers. That'll do it. And so you go through the experience, how long did you have to have that sort of terrifying experience of people harassing you or trying to intimidate you? It lasted a couple years. Really? Years?

Yes. It lasted a couple years and it stopped. But when this book comes out, it's going to start up again because the book discusses healthcare and general, not just Quest Core, but companies in general and doctors. But you know what? I'll deal with it when it happens. I can't think about it. Pete Slauson Well, it's a lot harder to probably stop you at this point because, you know, now it's a book. What happened with the case? Tell us about the case. What happened with the case on this? Well, what happened was, is in 2019 when I became public, the, you know, Malin Crot had bought Questcor.

They only settled 10% of the case. And I said to my key team attorney, something stinks because of all the cases that I read that were taken by the civil division, there's 100% settlement. So this is a civil case, not criminal? Yes, they were going to go criminal, but I've discovered basically with the Department of Justice, it was just too much time and money in order to do a criminal case and go to trial. You put your life on the line for this. you know, time and money in order to do a criminal case and go to trial.

Pete Slauson You put your life on the line for this. I forget that. Marcia Well, what can you do? But they decided to go civil and what they did is, I provided so much evidence they take the low-hanging fruit in order to prosecute the easiest infractions or bribes. So that's what they did, but Malinckrodt only settled 10% of the case. So the thing was is we're gonna prepare for trial.

So I was practicing depositions. I had to meet with the DOJ and the head from Augie Rippa came from Washington to grill me for about six hours to see how I would do as a witness, states, you know, federal witness on the stand. Pete Slauson Wow. Debra Larson Yeah, that was interesting. And so then you finally got to meet on the witness stand And and turn in these these folks and stuff. What was that experience like? Well, we didn't go to trial Oh, we almost were but then all of a sudden

Malancrot hit the news and they were involved in the opioid crisis, the other division. And I told my attorneys, they're going to claim bankruptcy. And they are sweet talking the government. This is my, was my opinion. And we're not going to go to trial. They're just going to be like that bad boyfriend who doesn't want to keep going on dates and, you know, oh, we'll go next week. And that's what they were doing. And 14 months later, Malancroft went bankrupt.

Wow. So they just bankrupt their way out of the civil case? Yes, everything. So they just bankrupt their way out of the civil case? Yes, everything. But the opioids did them in. And that's why they only settled 10% of the case, because they knew that they were going to get sued due to their, they were the third worst opioid offender on the opioid end. So, I told them, huh? It's crazy.

A lot of stuff that comes out there. But you know what? Justice was served in a way. It brought them down to their knees. They've recovered. Act Thar is now $45,000 a vial. Wow. $45,000 a vial. Wow. So, yeah.

$45,000 a vial. Holy crap. Yeah. That is crazy. And a patient needs five. Oh no. That is just insane. Just totally insane. And it was made from a pig pituitary from a slaughterhouse. Oh, really? Mary F. Kennedy- Yes.

Pete Slauson That's crazy. Mary F. Kennedy- So, that's one thing we learned in training. I said, so pretty much they got it for free. Pete Slauson Wow. That's crazy. So, one of the things you talk about in your book is you need to advocate for themselves. What are some different ways that you advise people to advocate for themselves in medicine, in the health business? Dr. Lowe Well, there is one website that, well, basically in 2010, there was this law, it was a physician transparency law where doctors had to, you know, it's for

the Medicare, you know, disclose if they got any money for talks, if they were involved in studies or if they got lunches. And of course, it wasn't publicized, but the website people can go on before they go see a doctor is openpaymentsdata.cms.com and type in your doctor and you can see if they're on the take. Wow. Yeah. You can do that yourself.

Now that's open payments data. Data or data. Yeah. Yeah. D a T a dot C M S which is Medicare. Dot gov G O V. Wow. Type in your doctor. And I would suggest doing it before you see your doctor. My theory is a patient should know the answers before they ask those questions to see if their physician

is on the take or lying. I also suggest that they go to legal websites like Law 360 or Justica to see if they've been named in a lawsuit. That's pretty interesting. Yes. I also suggest that if they're prescribed a drug to ask the doctor, you know, do you talk for this medication? If they do run, because they're not making a decision based on science or publications in journals. They're getting paid by the company $3,000

per talk. That's pretty wild. That's pretty wild. And so you can check these things and have a look for yourself. Yes. Yes. You can also check the company. And you can go in, the company and I it's you can go in the company has these SEC filings where you can see if they're being sued. They're like 120 some pages, but I read them and they're the 8K which is quarterly and the 10K and you can go down and see if they've been, you know, because they have to disclose it and it's in tiny print see if they've been, you know, cause they have to disclose it and it's in tiny print if they've been named or involved in a key tam case.

So you know, these questions before you can even take a drop or go see your doctor. That's important. Like doctors should be like a NASCAR racers where they have to put all the emblems on themselves. Politicians. Like doctors should be like NASCAR racers where they have to put all the emblems on themselves. Politicians do. They have to put the emblems of all their sponsors. They gave them money.

But this is great that there's a resource for this. I didn't even know these websites existed. Yeah. I always like to see if they've been named in a lawsuit and you can't find it in Google. Really? And you know, and there's another website, legal website that's free. It's called crawl with a K K R O L L dot com. I've seen some specialists that I've had to see light up.

So I didn't I canceled the appointment. Like when I had cancer. A couple of them didn't have my best interest because they were named in a lawsuit. Pete Oh, they were named in a lawsuit. Dr. Kelly McPheese Or malpractice. Pete That is really, I mean, that's really powerful to know this data. One thing my mom, my mom raised two handicapped daughters and she finds that she gets more advocacy and

help from the prescription doctors than she does the real doctors. She trusts her pharmacist more. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Denise J. Lachance I don't trust the pharmacist, and it has to do… Pete Larkin You don't trust anybody. Denise J. Lachance

No, I don't. Pete Larkin Or Lisa. has to do. I don't trust anybody. No, I don't. There's a whole, I have a whole theory about generic drugs and it's not good. Because you know, this was a bandaid for the government, oh, we're gonna have generic drugs. And the key of the pharmacy is to slam your drug to a generic. Well, a generic drug is not 100% the same thing. It's 80 or 100, 80% or 125%, plus or minus. So that could be dyes, fillers. It has to be almost there. So the key of the pharmacist is to give you the generic drug because they're getting benefits from corporate, you know, they have to show they dispense so many generic drugs versus brand, everybody's on the take together. So the only generic drugs I would take would be like a generic anahistamine. I would not ever

take any Generic drug if you had like cancer or cardiovascular issues diabetes Wow never So do you think there's more markups in the genetics and there's more? There's more availability for the markup of a generic drug is like 3000%. Profit margin is extensive. Wow. See, and I used to do contracting too and work with wholesalers in the 80s and 90s.

That's why. And we used to call on pharmacies at the time, so I knew what the markup was. Yeah. A few years ago, we had Katherine Ebon on the show, I don't know if you've heard of her. She wrote a book called Bottle of Lies, the inside story of the generic drug boom. And she talks about these generics being made in other countries that, you know, they're questionable on, you know, how well they, how clean they are, how well they've processed adding stuff that shouldn't be added. It was kind of an interesting discussion. Well, the FDA allows this.

Wow. This was the FDA law, plus or minus like 25%. So it goes 80 to 125 Well, I don't want to take and roll the dice if I have heart issues You know if it doesn't work I could wind up like say I had a fib in the ER Like say I had a fit in the ER. There's no way there is a way to even though things are expensive that you can get a brand name. And I demand a prior authorization. I demand they do it on the phone. Not demand, but I asked nicely. You know, I say, you know, because the doctor won't do it.

They allow substitution. Whoa, whoa. You have to have them write brand name necessary. And usually like I have sign in now, they're bad. I get every prior oath approved because I have the doctor either call in or write it. Oh, wow. Yes. So you can get approved for a brand name drug.

It's just the doctors don't want to do the work. So you ask them nicely. I want a prior authorization. Insurance companies hate that word, but you can get the brand name, I would say, 85% of the time. And also, you can get copay assistance from the company that makes the brand name. So you have a high, say you want a brand name, like I'm just trying to think Lipitor for to lower your cholesterol and your copay, you got to prove for it, but it's a different level. It's a high copay. Say your copay is $500. Well, the company has coupons.

Usually you have to ask or you could contact the company has a usually a patient assistance program so they'll take care of your copay okay which most people don't know Wow that's pretty helpful yeah so as people read your book and stuff what do you want people to come away with what's important for you as they walk away from reading the book? What lessons they learn or information they gather? Dr. Lisey Kroft I just want people to be enraged because to me, healthcare in general and the pharma industry is completely broken. And if people are enraged completely broken. And if people are enraged and demand change to their local congressman or senator, this is the only way our system is going to be corrected. And I also want

them to see that you can be an advocate because the only one that's going to help you is you. Nobody cares about you. Don't assume your doctor cares. They don't care. Managed care has destroyed this in physicians. So you, you know, all those little tips and homework have to demand what you want and take notes. And if it does, if you don't like it, find another doctor. So be your own advocate. Don't assume they're God and put them on a pedestal.

Pete Slauson It's interesting that we kind of assume that these folks have our best interests at heart but like you say, they're highly compromised. I think people are kind of discovering that. We want to believe that someone who's a caretaker who, you know, follows, you know, ethical rules or supposed to be ethical rules about living and dying, you dying, would be a purveyor of high ethics and standards, but money's money. Dr. It cut most of their salaries in half. Oh, wow. And more because you're limited what they give for a Medicare patient or a commercial patient.

That's it. So that means what they were used to 12 years ago has been cut in half. Hence, the pharma companies come in with all the bribes and kickbacks. So they used to care years ago. Nobody cares. Pete Wow. Well, it does seem like we have a real problem in this country with our health care and all that good stuff. So, give people your final pitch out as we go out to orderupthebook.com to find and learn more about you, etc., etc. Lisa Prada Yeah, basically lisapradayahoo.com. You can find the book on Amazon, your usual place is Barnes & Noble.

The publisher is HarperCollins. They have a website. If you type in Lisa Prada, false claims pages come up in smaller bookstores to order. Pete Well, thank you very much, Lisa, for coming on and telling your story. Lisa Thank you. Pete Amazing story and definitely, you know, great advice for people in, you know, we all reach a point sometime where we're spending a lot of time with medicines and doctors and stuff.

And yeah, we need more advocates for ourselves and we need to call out this industry to behave itself better ethically and morally. So thank you very much, Lisa, for coming on the show. Lisa Thank you very much for having me, Chris. Chris Thank you. And thanks to our audience for tuning in. Order of the Book, Where Refined Books Are Sold, False Claims, One Insider's Impossible Battle Against Big Pharma Corruption.

Thanks to my audience for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress, Chris Foss, Chris Foss One on the TikTokity and all those crazy places on the internet. Be good to each other, stay safe, we'll see ya next time. And that's showin' us out.