The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Fully Human / Fully Alive: A Human Model: A Human Model: A Human Model by Lyle L Simpson

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

Fully Human / Fully Alive: A Human Model: A Human Model: A Human Model by Lyle L Simpson https://www.amazon.com/Fully-Human-Alive-Model/dp/1961225603 Lylesimpson.com "Fully Human/Fully Alive: A Human Model" by Lyle L. Simpson delves into some of life's most profound questions, providing a comprehensive exploration from a humanist psychological standpoint. This enlightening book seeks to address timeless queries such as: Why are we here? How do we face our own mortality? Why do we need others? How can we make our lives meaningful? Simpson combines insights from psychology, philosophy, and humanism to offer readers a thoughtful and practical guide for navigating the complexities of human existence. By examining the nature of our purpose, the inevitability of death, the importance of interpersonal connections, and the quest for significance, Simpson presents a holistic model for achieving a fully realized and authentic life. With an emphasis on self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and personal growth, "Fully Human/Fully Alive" encourages readers to embark on a journey of self-discovery and transformation. It challenges us to confront our fears, embrace our vulnerabilities, and cultivate deeper, more meaningful relationships. Through this process, we learn to live more consciously and purposefully, finding fulfillment in the everyday moments that make up our lives. Whether you are seeking answers to life's big questions, looking to enhance your emotional well-being, or striving to live more authentically, "Fully Human/Fully Alive" offers valuable insights and practical tools to help you on your path. This book is a must-read for anyone interested in personal development, human potential, and the pursuit of a meaningful, well-lived life.

You wanted the best... You've got the best podcast. The hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries, and motivators. Get ready, get ready. Strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times.

Because you're about to go on a moment. Monster Education Roller Coaster with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. Thanks, Ms. Voss, here from thecris Foss Show.com. What are you doing there? As soon as that makes official, welcome the big show. 16 years and 2,500 episodes, we've been bringing in the Chris Voss show because, you know, we were just sitting around and we were like, we should find something to do to uplift the world

to make the world better. Get people to share their stories, their lessons of life, their cathartic moments they overcame and share those stories with everyone else because, as we like to say on the show, stories of the owner's manual to life, because I never got my official copy in the mail, and I'm pretty sure, from what I hear, no one else did either.

Anyway, refer to the show to your family, friends, and relatives. Go to goodrease.com, for chest, Chris Foss. LinkedIn.com, for chest, Chris Foss, Chris Foss, 1 on the TikTok, and Facebook.com, Furchast Chris Foss. Opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host

or the Chris Foss show. Some guests of the show may by advertising on the podcast, but it is not an endorsement or review of any kind. Today, many amazing young gentlemen on the show. We're going to be talking about his hot book called Fully Human, Fully Alive, a human model. And it was out July 1st, 2024 by L. Simpson. He's going to be joining us in the show. We'll get into it with him. Welcome to the show, Lyle. How are you? Hello there. I'll be 88 in a month. But I've been an attorney now for 62 years. My undergraduate work was in the psychology and philosophy.

And I've been studying that subject for many, many years. I've spent 50 years as an officer of the American Humanist Association. There's most people that are humanists who think for themselves are some pretty significant people. My successor as national president in that organization was Isaac Adams. Cosmov, who published 480 books. Carl Sagan, the astronomer that created Cosmos series. Bill Nye, the science guy. These are all humans that I know personally.

So do you identify as a humanist? Is that your... And then if you do, what, you know, what is a humanist? Lay a foundation for us on what that is. I do start out in the book explaining this, but it has to do with the Epicurean philosophy that's 22,600 years old, I think. And it was named Humanism in 2017, and it's been known by that ever since. But humanism was a philosophy.

These are people who think for themselves and test their truth of anything that they accept. You put your religion on top of it so it doesn't confuse. conflict with any religion, they're humanists in all-faith groups, but it's people that are trying to make the most out of their own individual life somewhere or another. Okay. How does, let me ask you this, I'm not sure how familiar you are with AI, but how important is humanism, you know, given in this age where AI seems to be emerging as a new species that might compete with us as human? I don't even know how to answer that It is kind of one of those big questions Which came first the chicken or the eggs

So in your book You talk about several things You talk about how Masla Discovered that humans live on one of six Different psychological levels And 75 or 70% of all Americans are locked In the third social level Never realizing there are three levels above them

Talk to us about what that is and how that applies to humanism? Well, the first place, psychology started with Sigmund Freud, who took people that had bad behavior and with psychological training, tried to bring him in the mainstream society. So it started out kind of as a negative science.

And then the behaviors came along when Pavlo taught his dog to salivate when he rang a bell, even the food wasn't present, which means behavior can't. be controlled. And so that started a whole field of behaviorists. And what behaviorists say is that all behavior creates because of need deprivation. Maslow was trying to figure out why two of his professors were such beautiful people, what's the need deprivation that causes that? And all of a sudden he realized, maybe we've got this whole subject backwards. These are normal people. And to the extent

you have need deprivation, you get abnormal, clear down to the people that Freud was dealing with. And so he started studying needs and what he discovered was that the drive strength of needs can be categorized and he discovered there were six different levels

and that the need below is the strongest need and it'll control your behavior over everything above that. Your basic needs are food, water, cellar of warmth. If you really got to go

the bathroom nothing else is important yeah that's true and then once your basic needs are satisfied you go to the security level to build a framework that allows you to make sure you can satisfy your basic needs forever once you're secure you then bring other people within your defense mechanism on the social level and share life with them but basic needs and security needs control your behavior but once you're at the social level you could go beyond that but only 30 percent of our society today can live on a higher level how much 30 percent only 30 percent get beyond the social level oh really wow and that's because many of our beliefs once you have a belief it can become what's called a scotoma and what a scotoma is it acts like the spam

blocker in a computer some of those beliefs are are good. You know, if you've got a spouse, a wife, or a husband, you don't want anybody else to be more important than that person. So that belief is a good one. But on the other hand, a lot of those are dangerous or block you from seeing things that are more important. And so what my book does, it doesn't mean those beliefs will go away or you'll lose those beliefs, but what it does mean is that you can build a bridge over it or a barrier, over your barrier, or a detour around it so that that belief doesn't keep you from seeing what's above it.

And so what are the three levels above what most Americans don't get to? I'm trying to get above the first one. The fourth level is really self-awareness. Oh, my favorite. It's so that you really know yourself as an individual. And 30% can get there. But 6% then get to the actualized level where all of their needs are totally satisfied. And why that's important, selfishness declines at the same rate.

So somewhere on the actualized level, selfishness goes away. And what that does is it opens a new door for you. where you can become fully alive on the sixth level, because then you can do things for others that make a difference in the world without any selfish need being satisfied, and that changes your whole dynamic and makes your life fully worthwhile.

What that does for you, to the extent you leave the world a better place because you've been here, that creates a form of immortality we can be certain really does exist. And so understanding these levels and how they work is critical for you to be able to get to a point where you can become fully alive. Yeah. I mean, let me ask you this.

There's some people that say that even being charitable is a selfish act because I'm doing it to make myself feel good. And, I mean, when I'm charitable, I do feel good. It is a bit self-serving in a way. Is that because I haven't ascended fully all the levels, or is that true in your mind? It's clearly true. If you're living on the fourth level of self-awareness, you'll do things for others, but you're clearly doing it for selfish reasons. If you get to the sixth level, the things you're doing, there's no selfish component to it.

You generally don't even want people to know who you are. Okay. So like a Secret Santa might be a good, I know there was somebody I really respected that I remember reading about years ago. And for like 20 or 30 years, I think it was in Cincinnati, he'd been what he called the Secret Santa. And he would go around Christmas and he had some wealth and he would pass out $100 bills, $20 bills. He would go to like laundromats and places where people that, you know, obviously aren't on the higher chain of the economic levels. and, you know, he would target poor areas and he would go hand out money

and, you know, to help people pay it forward and stuff like that. I just interviewed one guy last year here in my local community. He drives a, every Christmas, he drives a sleight truck around that's got Santa sitting in and it's all decked out with lights, and thankfully, they're red and blue,

and thankfully the police officers let him give him a pass on these lights and his car driving around. but he gives out candy canes to people and I don't think he gives up money I think he just gives out candy canes and cheer tells people have a Merry Christmas and I've always admired people that can do that there's something gracious about the human spirit when we engage that way well there's really only about 1% of our society that actually get to the fully alive level a lot of the people like you're talking about

are doing this on the Eagle level because they get recognition for it. Yeah. But I can give you a number of examples of things that are on the actualized level or above. Please do. I'm sorry, what? Yeah, could you give us a few of those? I'd love to hear them because I'm working on, I mean, I'm just trying to get past the first level.

Okay. I'll give you an example of my grandson who has a freshman at Drake University. went on a three-week study a program abroad with 20 other students and three professors. And the professors took him to Uganda to a rural community of 30,000 people that had never seen white people before, let alone Americans. And it turns out one of the professors was from there. But anyway, what he discovered, these people were very caring and very giving. they had very little money.

And this guy, he was told about, had taken his wife to the nearest medical clinic, which is a three-day journey. But when he got there, he didn't have the equivalent of $5 to pay for the delivery kit, so they refused to deliver the baby. So he had to try and deliver his own baby on the side of the road, and the baby and mother both died. Oh, no. Well, that was more than my grandson could have.

He says, I'm going to spend the rest of my life saying that these people get their own medical clinic. When he made that decision of the 20 students, six of them agreed to help. The three professors couldn't dodge the bolts, so they had to help too. But anyway, my grandson agreed he'd raised the money if the students, other students, would figure out all the rest of their needs. he comes back in his sophomore year and raises the money they break the ground

and there's a lot more to the story but it'll make it shorter anyway the clinic opened the next year one of the professors went back and checked it on and there was this little two-month-old baby living under

in a crib with an IV drip she had both pneumonia and malaria that child typically would simply die the little child opened her eyes and she

looked up at this professor and that made it all worthwhile well that little child's 10 years old today and still living because my grandson made the decision he was going to see these people get a medical clinic I'll never know my grandson's name That isn't important to him.

But think what that does to create an immortality for my grandson that will live on forever. And that immortality is why I remember them and why we value them. And, you know, I mean, there's people that we've known that contributed to society, that, you know, built libraries for us and all sorts of different things. Now, one of the other things you talk about is the drive strength of the levels are twice that of the level above. which explains that is their beliefs that are holding them back what is that to statement refer to well there's a thousand different reasons it's all for each individual but I'll just use one as an example because I do this in my

book religion there are people that tell you that they've got the key to heaven and if you don't follow their requirement, you get to go to hell. I've seen those people. I've heard from them. That fear alone is sufficient to cause enough drive strength to lock you on the social level. Because you're so busy trying to get to heaven, you're not thinking of anything else. And it's kind of sad, but, you know, I do go into that in some detail. just because that's such a prevalent problem and if you understand how one problem can cause that kind of behavior change you can apply it to yourself and find what's really blocking your ability to get beyond that you know I can't address all thousand of the different reasons I can think why that happens but I can use enough that are generally known by society

so that you can see what I'm talking about and it's very important that you if somebody tells you that this is true and you don't agree and you get you get belligered really you get angry you're telling you've got a scotoma there

and so you can't see your own scotomas but that's pretty good evidence that that's exactly what it is Why is it that when we accept a belief, it develops into scatoma and acts like a spam blocker allowing us to see anything that might conflict, especially if it's real? Like, I grew up wondering why people believe the things they believed. Like, you know, it's amazing you can adopt one belief where you can just say, let's just pick something wild, like the earth is shaped like a triangle. It's not round, it's not flat people, it's a triangle. Everybody knows that.

sounds like the world's flat and if you get to the end you're going to fall off yeah i mean people build whole cults over this thing so someone's going to build a triangle earth cult now that i brought it up but uh and it's always been amazed how people can take that one belief they lock in on that one thing and then they can build that like what you talk about the scotoma this belief system that supports it even though it's you know operating its own private Idaho, basically, is what I say? So talk to us about that. How does that turn in these ketomas and we can't see outer data?

Well, there's some advantage to scotomas. You get bombarded with thousands of different challenges, I guess, is the right word, on a daily basis. And you can't solve all of them. And so you've got to have some system within your body to classify so that those things that you can get by without, you do. Otherwise, you couldn't function. You'd be wondering all over the place doing everything. That makes sense. I understand that there's kind of a, it can be good and bad.

It's one of those good and bad things that we all, good or evil sort of things. Well, you want to love your wife and your children, and you want to take care of them. And so that's a good scotoma to have. Yeah. Good focus to have on that. I'm going to write that down because I'm going to start doing that. Loving the wife and kids. Now, one of the thing you talk about in your book is you're trying to help readers find bridges over or detail.

tours around their scotomas so they can rise by the control. You mentioned one thing I always use as a notification device for me that when I feel emotionally triggered over something that someone says to me, I have to realize that maybe there is a scotoma, maybe there is a blind spot, maybe it's reality challenging my delusional belief that I've accepted, and then I have to go, maybe I should look into that because maybe it's me. Maybe it's not the outer data that's conflicting. Maybe it's

reality knocking on the door going, hello, reality here. We'd like to talk to you about our Lord and Savior logic and reason, reality. The whole reason for a college education is so that you can build bridges over where you've gone through your childhood

so you can expand your knowledge. and there's nothing wrong with that that's what education's for but we all have scotomas you couldn't function that's how you sort out information and I imagine I hear you would go crazy

if you didn't have scatomas you would basically be in information overload and overwhelm and you're trying to figure what to do with it maybe It would just be madness, maybe? I discussed this to some degree. This is really what makes a humanist. It's how you determine what is true.

And I use four different examples. Socrates had a way of determining what was true. He'd take two opposing ideas and realize the truth has got to be somewhere in between. Well, the only way we use that to determine truth today is the jury system in a courtroom. Oh, humanists would use that as a means of determining their own truth. And then there's authorities. Now, a humanist will accept an authority to meet a particular need temporarily, but they won't lock on to the authority.

And yet there are people, and I don't mean to pick on any religion, but there are priests and there are people out there that say, this is the truth and you follow me and don't worry about anything else and I'll make your decisions for you and John Shelby Spong who was an Episcopal priest in New Jersey actually

goes through the entire system within religion to show how this works and did a beautiful job of it but if you the humanist would test anything to determine what's true for themselves and if they doesn't pass the test they may accept that as a momentary solution to a problem but they won't rely on that going into the future

the fourth way of determining truth as opposed to self-testing is with science because science constantly is testing truth and so if science says something is true, it probably is. And so a humanist is more apt to accept science as their means of determining truth than a particular authority. Ah. Now

with that, with that using science, the one aspect of science is it's never a final determination. It's an ongoing development or exploration. I may not have the right words here, but it's an ongoing thesis. Right? And so one of

the great things about science is, it doesn't lock in like a scotoma so much it you know it doesn't try to blind spot itself it tries to identify those blind spots by peer review and different things like that and then it's it's never really to my understanding it's the great thing about science it's never really locked into any certain place it's constantly evolving and growing and learning more and trying to get beyond that dunning kruger sort of effect of you know the people who have little not knowledge on things think they know everything and people that are mastering something realize how little they know and how vast it is the amount they need to learn what are

your thoughts on that Einstein was only determined to be telling the truth after a hundred years yeah same thing with Newton and gravity didn't they threaten to kill Newton over the gravity in terms of science but the point is you're right science is science is evolving and what we believe is the truth today in science may not be tomorrow, but you've got an open mind to accept the changes and you've got to live the moment with the best knowledge that you possibly can have. And that's one means of humanist determining truth. Even your own doctor, you may accept what this doctor is tailing you, but say he needs to suggest you. you need surgery, a humanist would say, okay, but they may go get a second opinion. And because they can't know everything, but on the other hand, they don't rely on a single doctor's opinion.

People, security levels, needs, for instance, religion is a security, mid-social level. very strong it guides the life of most people but it also causes some of the biggest problems if

you're willing to test what it is you're told that at least it doesn't control you to the point where it can ruin your life Unitarians for instance

they never tell you what a truth is, they'll only tell you what the problems are and make you think your way through it. That's kind of a novel approach. Yeah. Now, for humanists, do humanists believe in a higher power? Do they believe in normal religion and gods?

Or are they just believe in humans? I'm kind of curious. Oh, they'll believe anything. I mean, there are religions within all faith groups. You put your religion on top of it. It's not an attempt to tell you what you have to believe. It's an attempt to tell you how you determine what you want to believe.

How you determine how you want to be. Well, you test with the experiences that you've had in the past, or you study the subject or whatever it might take for you to gain the information because you can't know everything. You determine who's the authority you're going to accept at this moment for that but you leave yourself open to change your mind if further information comes along in the future what a crazy thing man you know and do we need to constantly be questioning our data you know what do i how do i need to accept you know i don't know if you

studied the dunning kruger effect and and does that work into some of the stuff you wrote about in the book and and talked about i didn't quite get the question um did you you have you heard about the, have you heard about the Dunning and Krueger effect? And does that apply to some of the stuff you talk about in the book? I'm sorry, say that again. Did you hear about, have you heard about the Dunning Kruger effect? No, I don't know that.

Okay. Dunning Krueger effect is basically, let me pull it up so I get it right. I don't want to be making stuff up here. Dining a Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people with low competence in particular areas overestimate their own abilities and knowledge while highly competent individuals may underestimate theirs. Basically, the less a person knows that most more ignorant they are on subject, the more many times they overestimate their own knowledge. We see a lot of that today in politics and other things. And then highly competent individuals will underestimate their value and realize that, you know,

mastering any given thing takes, you know, 10,000 hours of application or however you want to call it. And so that kind of deals with cognitive, um, bias because if we live in the scotoma that we're the smartest people to know, like if, like I flunked algebra. If I were to start saying, well, I, I was in an algebra class, so I know everything there's to know about algebra. You would be like, you probably don't because you flunked algebra. So, uh, there's that. What else in your book haven't we explored or teased out to people to get them to pick it up?

Where do I begin? Yeah. I go through quite a bit of psychology in the book. Psychology is the study of behavior and that's my background and so I understand

that a little better than many other things. But I also point out that we're all built differently. You get into Myers-Briggs psychology, for instance. Yeah. And

what you find is that there's four totally different ways that people have of processing truth. And David Kiersey wrote a book on this subject on Myers-Briggs

psychology. It gives a pretty good, it's not a test, It's, do you believe this or do you believe that? There's no right or wrong. And you go through about 75 questions. You get all done with that. He's got about six pages in there that totally describes you that you'd think he was your brother or your next door neighbor that knows you that well. And my wife and I wouldn't be together today if we hadn't found that book.

It cost me $17, but it saved my marriage. did it really that's amazing do you want to tease that story out a little bit it found out that I'm an idealist to this in 10% of society think like I do and what Kersi points out is that most people have a modifier of one of the

other characteristics with them but I don't have any modifier it's only 1% of society looks at reality like I do my wife on the other hand is rationalist and rationalist is only 6% So she thinks exactly opposite of me.

So we went to a store to buy a birthday card for somebody. I find a card I like with a message I like and I want to get out of there. She won't buy that card until she looks at every other card to determine that that one's really the best. We got into a fight right in the middle of the crowd. So we went to a therapist and they told us about Myers-Briggs and saved our marriage. There's the guardians, which are the largest number, about 45%.

And they want to keep everybody within the box. And they're good at organizing things, but they always have to have a lot of recognition for what they do. It turns out I had relationships in the past with people that were guardians, and I didn't give them enough recognition. And then you've got artisans who think totally outside of the box. Well, all of them have a different way of processing information. Well, now that I understand that, it's enlarged my scope of being able to deal with a lot more people effectively. And but anyway, so the book goes into some things like that. There's a lot of others because what it's trying to do is help you guide yourself through life

so you understand who you are and what you do, what you think, and why you think that way, and how you can get beyond that by giving you examples that help you build bridges over your barriers. It's not trying to say you've got to go leave a belief. It just means you've got to amplify your ability to see more than that belief. Definitely. Amplify your ability. And, you know, one of the things I always work on,

this is something that not only is important in your life, but in business. So in business, you know, I learned about scottomas early on, I believe it was from Anthony Robbins in the 90s. I went to one of his very early events he was having in 92 or 93. I just look at my ticket to the day. It's kind of funny. I kept it all these years.

But he really impacted me and talking about scottomas and blind spots. And so over business, you know, one of the things you can have, especially as an entrepreneur, are blind spots. And so, you know, I would constantly sit down with my staff when we innovated ideas or brought in new systems, and I would be like, and I would ask them, I would be like, okay, here's the concept or the idea of what we're doing here. What am I not seeing that might be wrong with this model? Where are my blind spots?

Where are my scotomas? You know, and somebody will chime in and be like, oh, did you know that if you do this, then that's going to happen, and that's going to cause a chain reaction to over here. And maybe you haven't seen the whole big picture. They'll be like, you know, here's the flaw in that, in that idea that could collapse everything. And so I've kind of learned that this is an application not for life, but for business to challenge my scatomas, to question my belief systems constantly to value test them or strength test them, I guess, by trying to think about two opposing ideas outside the box. And so constantly in business, the ideas I come up with, the innovations I come up with, new businesses, I'm constantly looking at them going, am I operating in reality? Am I seeing everything I need to see?

Do I see the blind spots and scotomas? We used to call it looking the dragon in the mouth. And we'd sit down and if we had to spend like a lot of money, like, okay, we got to buy this computer system for 20 grand. Okay, this is a lot of money because we're, you know, we were a growing company. And, you know, I remember just have this meeting over a $4,000 copier. And, you know, it depended where we were on the level of business.

But I would sit down and be like, okay, we're going to spend this money. money, can we live with the downside if this doesn't pay off as being the innovation that we need or the things that we need to make business? So a lot of this stuff not only can be used in your life, in operations of what you do day to day with your personal life, but also it's really important for business people, CEOs, entrepreneurs, just about anyone in business. What are my blind spots? You know, how am I operating in reality? Would you agree? You better watch it. You might be a humanist. Yeah, I've been accused of the worst, though.

Usually in four letters, but that's another story. I've been an attorney for 62 years, and the first five years, I loved the chess game in the courtroom, but I woke up and realized, but I feel guilty making someone else lose. Now, who in the heck's going to want to hire a lawyer who's going to feel guilty willing for you? That's kind of bad, yeah. So what am I going to do? Well, I decided what I really want to do is help people be successful at whatever they want to do. And so I heard the Internal Revenue Service had a statistic that said that 80% of all new businesses fail in the first three years. Wow.

I thought, wow, that's pretty impressive. Maybe I could help there. And I had a client tell me one time, we're all born with 10 columns and 100 marbles. They just distribute different for different people. So some of your columns are really full. Some of your columns are missing a few. The reason why larger organizations have an outside board of directors is so that the weakness of the leader doesn't become the institutional weakness.

Smaller businesses can't afford a board of directors. So I thought, I'm going to fill that role. So I started studying what causes failure. And today, I've... representative over a thousand different entities one way or another and I learned lose maybe 16 17 percent because it really was a dumb idea you don't listen but there's a big spread between that and 80 percent and so I think I've added value for people and five of my clients are now world leaders and what they do

three of which we actually started in a garage but anyway so I I can sleep nights, and I feel that I am helping society keeping these people successful. So as we go out, what do you hope people come away with in the book and give people a pitch out to order up your book wherever fine books are sold? What's it? What now? So give people a final pitch out on your book to pick it up, final thoughts, and all that good stuff. the book is 320 pages

but you'll certainly know the subject fully if you get through it and it'll give you a lot to think about and it will help you regardless of what point you drop off but it'll help you have a much better life because you've been here and that's my goal and it's a worthy goal as well

your website is Lyle Simpson is that correct yes now it's getting re-stated i didn't realize that that uh when you created a website you bought it only for a short period of time oh yeah and so uh all of a sudden i couldn't get in there anymore so they told me well did you pay your dues well no i didn't know i had to got to pay the dues got to pay the man so i'm taking care of that but it would help people if they went in there and it would at least give them a much better idea what my book's about. Can people hire you to

consult or coach on the aspects of your book off your website when it's up? I would give them free help any way I could but I give a third of my time to society one way or another just because I think that's the right thing to do. And

my website one of my publishers put my whole resume in there that's 19 pages. I didn't want to know all that. That's a hell of a resume. So people can watch for your website. This will be published about three to five, seven

days probably. So I think hopefully your website will be up by that time. We'll put a link to the website on the Chris Fos show so you continue there. Thank you very much for coming to the show, Lyle. We really appreciate it. It's been wonderful to have you and very insightful. Well, I'm very pleased to have the opportunity

and wish you well and what you're doing because you doing a lot to keep the public informed of all kinds of subjects. We're trying to lift like you're trying to lift and give back. Thank you very much, Lyle. Thanks for tuning in. Order up Lyle's book, wherever fine

books are sold. It is entitled Fully Human, fully alive, a human model, and it's out on paperback July 1st, 2024. Thanks to my honest for tuning in. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortresschristch, Christfoss, LinkedIn. com, Fortresschristch, Chris Foss, 1

on the TikTokity and all those crazy places and all those crazy places. Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time. Thank you.