The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Haystack Full of Needles: A memoir of research on mechanisms of memory in the decades that defined neuroscience by Louis Neal Irwin

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Haystack Full of Needles: A memoir of research on mechanisms of memory in the decades that defined neuroscience by Louis Neal Irwin https://www.amazon.com/dp/1664140603 Lirwin.org How do we store information in the brain? Is memory a thing in a place, like a specific molecule in a particular cell? Or does learning require a process in a population, like neurons firing in a specific pattern for each experience? This combination of memoir and history tells the story of how the mechanisms of memory were gradually revealed, through biographical vignettes of the scientists who set out to solve the riddle of memory, including the author?s own efforts as he was coming of age as a scientist. It shows how individual goals intertwine with the technologies at hand to push scientific knowledge forward, often erratically, and always in the context of social forces and private ups and downs. Not only a compelling personal story with the war in Vietnam, civil rights movement, and downfall of two presidents as backdrop, this is a lucid explanation of brain function for the nonscientist and valuable contribution to the history of science in the decades that saw neuroscience join molecular biology as the marquee biomedical accomplishments of the twentieth century About the author Writer, neuroscientist, astrobiologist, educator, and political activist. Born in West Texas and raised in San Antonio, now current resident of Denver. Former Professor and Chair of Biological Sciences at the University of Texas at El Paso. Previously lived in Lubbock TX, Lawrence KS, New York City, Detroit, and Newton MA, serving four terms there on the Board of Aldermen. Recently a Court Appointed Special Advocate for abused and neglected children, and current chair of the Public Policy Committee of the Democratic Party of Denver. Co-author of “Life in the Universe” and “Cosmic Biology”, and author of “Scotophobin”

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Some guests of the show may be advertising on the podcast, but it is not an endorsement or review of any kind. Today's featured author comes to us from Books to Lifemarketing.co.uk. With expert publishing to strategic marketing, they help authors reach their audience and maximize their book's success. Today, an amazing young man on the show with us. He is the author of his book called Haystack Full of Needles, a memoir of research on mechanisms of memory in the decades that defined neuroscience. Lewis Neil Irwin joins us in the show. We're going to get into some of the details with him and how you can learn more about what he's written about. he's up to. He is a noted neuroscientist, astrobiologist, and evolutionary biologist.

He has served on faculties at the Pharmacy School of Columbia University, Wayne State University, the Neurosciences Research Program of MIT, Simmons University, and Chair of Biological Studies at the University of Texas at El Paso. Over a career of teaching and research spanning half a century, he became acquainted with all principal scientists who like him were searching for the mechanisms of memory during the formative years of neuroscience. Oh, maybe those scientists just forgot. I'm kidding. See what I did there. Anyway, he's authored over 100 research, papers, reviews, and commentaries, and written, and co-authored four other books on neuroscience, astrobiology, and evolution,

and we'll get out of them why most of your brains are broken, including mine. Welcome to the show, Lewis. How are you? Fine, thank you. Good to be here. Pleasure to have you, sir. Give us any dot-coms.orgs. websites, wherever you want people to get to know you better. L.Urwin.org has a list of all my books and my publications and the plays that I've written. Ah, you've written some plays, too. Yes, I'm a playwright in my other life.

Yeah, you got science and then you got fiction. But I've, most of my life has been devoted to science. and especially to neuroscience. So that's really my, that's been my day job for over 50 years. It's good to have a day job. That's what my mom says. Give us a 30,000 overview, if you would. What's the side of this book, sir?

As the subtitle indicates, it's really three stories intertwined in one. First, it is a memoir of my learning. to be a scientist and becoming one during periods of social upheaval and considerable personal ups and downs. Secondly, it is an account of how mechanisms of memory storage started coming into focus, especially in the last half of the 20th century. And then thirdly, it's a history of how biochemistry, physiology, and anatomy came together to make the hybrid discipline of neuroscience for studying the brain and behavior. In the book, you talk about people and their memory and brains.

Now, what if they're on Twitter and they don't have any? Because that's pretty popular over there. Twitter jokes. Those are our callbacks. What fascinates to you about memory and why is it? Is it important, I guess, then you write about in your book? Memory matters to us because it is an account of our experiences, our emotions, our thoughts, our dreams, essentially everything that makes up who we are and helps us define where we

are and where we've been and where we are now. Now, how does memory work? Is there a hamster in there and he's just an archivist, librarian? He just tracks everything. And you're like, hey, put a movie on a memory and stuff. He can play it for you and stuff. Is that how it works? It's a great question, Chris.

Memory is encapsulated in something that have come to be called engrams. Those are patterns of nerve cell activity in the brain. Early on, there was a debate about whether memory is a thing in a place or a process in a population. So by that we mean, let me give some example. Suppose, Chris, that your brain is like a Christmas tree and it has a lot of strings of multicolns. colored lights. And the first time you smell a rose, let's say, the fourth light and the string that codes for odor changes from white to red, just at that point.

So that would be a thing and a place that has changed. On the other hand, suppose your brain is more like a Christmas tree that has strings of different colored lights, a string has the same color, but there are many different strings with different colors. And when you smell a rose in that case, then let's say the string of red lights comes on.

But it's not just one light, it's a whole string of them. On the other hand, when you smell a blue bonnet, then the blue string of lights comes on. So there we're talking about a multiplicity of cells that become activated, and the string that is activated depends on or determines what you perceive. So that's more a description of a process in a population.

Now, today we think that memories are much more likely to be, like the second option, a process in a population, many cells involved in the storage of even the simplest memories. But we know that the brain is plastic. It can change in the sense that it records experiences. And so there must be many things going on at many different places in the brain. So this is interesting, all these colors. You think of all the stuff you come up within your brain, whether it's memory or whether it's conjuring up innovation or ideas or thinking about things. And you're just like, what is this little, what, five or ten pound gray mass of noodles and blood and whatever gray matter? And it's just amazing the things that can do.

And you see those memory champions, too. Have you ever studied those guys, those memory champions? I think we had one on the show. He was like a memory champion and gotten the award for having the best memory or something many years in a row. Yeah, there are people with remarkable memories. I'm not, that's a whole field in itself, and I'm not very knowledgeable about that. My focus has been more on the cellular and the chemical substrate of memory and brains. And the human brain.

And I'm also interested in animal consciousness and in the extent to which memories are stored in nervous systems other than human nervous systems. There's an old saying the body knows the score. When people have trauma, they talk about how it's stored in the body, maybe the same way, this is a memory, right? So it's a trauma memory stored in the body somewhere, right? Exactly. They say the body knows a score. And sometimes people, it's kind of weird, they can have different things done to different parts of their body. I don't know, over here on the right side, you rub your kidney and suddenly the trauma is gone.

I'm just kind of making a light case for it. But you know what I mean? There's certain parts of people who store stuff. And that's, so there's some truth to that then. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good point you're making. And it's related to a realization. that we've come to more recently, and that is that brains stay with, memories stay with us in our brains.

We may have a hard time accessing them. It may be difficult for us to recall memories, but there is a strain of thought that perhaps most memories are never really lost. the problem is not losing our memory, the problem is being unable to retrieve our memories. There's a lot of misunderstanding, for instance, about memory loss with aging. People say, oh, I can't remember names, I can't remember this or that, I'm losing my memory. In fact, we're not losing our memory, but we are losing the ability to retrieve those memories. So a lot of research these days is going into what do we have to do to access memories that are latent in our brain. They're sitting there. We just can't bring them into our consciousness.

Really? That's interesting. Now, let me ask you this, and hopefully I'm not getting too off track from your book. But one thing about trauma, we talk about this a lot on the show because a lot of people have it. And it can impact your whole life. You can take childhood and drag it for 100 years if you want. And if you live that long. And so I know that sometimes we talk with psychologists.

I used to think it was weird when people would say, oh, I remember something for my childhood. I was assaulted or something. And wait, why do you mean, that's just really weird. Like, why didn't you remember that from childhood? And with the other psychologists we've had on the show, we probably had three, 500 psychologists on the show. PhDs, all that stuff, they agree that what the body does when it's overwhelmed emotionally and it can't figure out how to process trauma, like many of us, when we're children, we just don't have the ability to understand what's going on and what it means. And sometimes it's too

much for our brains to handle. And so it will be stored, I guess, till later. And then somewhere in there, the mind and body decide, I think he maybe can, she, she can handle this right now. and then they start awakening that memory for you. And so do you feel that's a valid sort of thing in this process of storing stuff for the body and wakening up at different times of memory? Kind of interesting. Yes, I do think that's a valid observation, and I think it's close to the truth. It also relates to another thing that is prominent in the news these days.

different, that is, allegations of traumas or allegations of, let's say, sexual assault or impropriety. And so frequently we have, he said, she said scenario where one person claims that they were abused, and another person denies that that happened. This is not a mystery to me, and it's not that surprising. I think what happens is that something did happen between those people. And over time, their memories have morphed. Their memories have changed so that one person remembers it one way and the other person remembers it the other way.

So it's not that either is not telling the truth or not telling, not trying to tell the truth. What they're doing is they're telling a different version of what really happened because their memory is labile. Their memory changes over time. So that is why we'll remember things. in a very different way, the same event, but remember them in a very different way. And they're not being dishonest, either one of them. They're just telling you the way they remember it. But memories are labile. Memories don't stay constant for our lifetime. They do change. And depending on who you are, your brain has a tendency.

to alter that memory in a way that makes sense to you or that you want to believe. You want to believe that something happened the way you remember it. And that's what your brain does. Your brain adapts it. So brains are not, are not, memories are not chiseled in stone in your brain. They're chiseled in the software of cells. and those cells can be virtually permanent if they're reinforced by reliving the experiences or rethinking the experience, but they also can change if the brain, for reasons of emotional trauma or just self-serving motivations, the brain chooses to alter those memories. The brain doesn't choose willfully, but mechanisms in the brain are such that those memories will be altered in accordance with what that person wants to believe or is led to believe.

Really? So if I lead people to believe different memories than what they remembered, you can do that? You can reprogram your memories. That would make some people's memories questionable, right? Because you're like, I don't know, will they still pass a lie detector? Light detectors in general are sort of inherently and imprecise. But the answer to your basic question is, yes, we can modify our memories, and that is one form of therapy makes use of that.

Now, in the laboratory, what we really want to know is not just whether we can change memories, but how we can change it. It would be nice if there was a traumatic memory that we wanted to purge from our brain. We wanted to get rid of it. If we could just take a pill that would get rid of that specific memory, that would be great. We have to know how memory really works in order to know how to manufacture the pill that would do that. And so that's why basic research is still very important in studying memory and in coming to understand how it works so that we can manipulate it if we need to. Of course, the other option is some people might like to have very pleasant memories instilled in them, even though they were not experiences that that person actually possessed.

A lot of science fiction books and novels have been written along those lines, taking happy pills to implant happy memories. So it can go both ways. But until we know what the mechanisms are at the cellular and the systems level, then that remains a project for the future, not something that we can do today. Yeah, yeah. I know a lot of memories, the most intense ones, are attached to emotion. Maybe all memories are attached to emotion. What's the correct thing on there?

That is also correct. Memories that have strong emotional, let me back up. Experiences that have strong emotional content tend to form stronger memories. So there is undeniably a connection between our emotions and what we remember, what we're going to store. And that is pretty well worked out. The neurochemistry of emotion and the brain circuits that connect those regions of the, let's say, we're talking about humans, those regions of the cerebral cortex, where the disparate

facets of the memory are located or stored. The circuitry between those areas and the emotional parts of our brain are pretty well understood. So we know a good bit about how emotion affects memory. And there is no question that that's true. Now, going back to the flowers, smelling the flowers in your brain that we talked about earlier, Everyone has the intuitive sense that there is a special connection between odors and memory. We can go for years without smelling a particular odor, and then we can come across it, and it will immediately trigger an experience

or a set of experiences associated with that odor. even though we haven't experienced that odor for maybe decades at a time. And the somewhat simplified neuroscientific rationale for that is that olfaction, unlike the other senses, connects directly to the emotional parts of the brain. and the others do too, but more indirectly. So the relationship between odor and the emotional part of the brain is particularly strong and direct. That's pretty cool. And that explains a lot.

Now, I've heard that women have a higher, the part of the brain that houses their memory is much larger than a man's, and of course, they connect a lot because emotions. is there, how they process everything. They're able to attach a lot of that through emotions. So is that true that they have a bigger memory size in their brain, or what's the skinny on that? No, I've never heard that. Oh, really? Yeah, I think that's some women who are concocting a self-serving.

That would never have it. But seriously, Seriously, brains of males and females are different in fairly subtle ways. But we think now that memory's long-term memory gets dispersed from one part of the brain where it starts out into different regions of the brain that those different aspects of the memory are scattered throughout different regions. of the brain. And females do in fact have slightly smaller brains than males, but they have the full capacity for memory that males do. And I think it is probably true that women in general

are more emotionally astute and sensitive. Now, how much of that is hardwired? during early neural development and how much is just social conditioning. I'm not expert enough to say, but the bottom line, Chris, is that I know of no substantial differences in the ability of men and women to store memories or to relate them to relate to relate emotional memories to episodic memories or verbal memories or other things. Okay. Maybe because your wife can remember, not your wife, but most people's wives, they can remember something you did in 1974 at 5 o'clock in the afternoon.

The temperature was 100 degrees, and most guys won't remember what that was. But, you know, men can't remember the same data on that. Men can do that. Men can do that too. Really? Okay. So maybe we store different things. And I imagine since women attach so much to emotion or men don't and they prioritize it, it would seem to me like they would have more, they would relate to,

it only it's easier to remember something more if you have emotion attached to it. But maybe there's a psychology to why our brains are developed. So men lying in bed, they will hear outside dangers. They are aware they will be listening for dangers, door opens, people outside, things that they deal with their protect and provide. Where women, they'll hear the baby crying, but the men won't as much. And so women are tuned to that baby because they're the connection with the pair, the deepest pair bonded between the two, where men were designed to be focused on different things. Maybe that's what it is.

Maybe it's a focus thing where men, we're worried about, worrying about, I don't know, data on it. Because ask anybody who's a baseball fan or grew up watching Mickey Miano and Babe Ruth and all that shit, they can tell you who was, who was dependent in 1985 and 74 and all that stuff. But if their wife asks him, hey, do you get that text message to pick up some groceries? What was it today? They can't remember. So interesting. Maybe maybe it's all just.

just that attachment to motion. Men will attach their emotions to things maybe they do with their father, like the baseball game, and women will attach their things to maybe a relationship. I don't know. Just a kick, just spitball in here. So you're the expert. Yeah, I think you're, you are certainly correct in noting that women have different thresholds for different stimuli than men. and there would be good evolutionary reasons for that.

There would be good evolutionary reasons for men that could hear the lion prowling around outside and women could preferentially hear the baby crying. That makes total sense to me, and it wouldn't surprise me that there are circuits that promote that bias. but it's only a bias. And I think we need to be careful about getting too carried away with neurological differences and emotional and perceptual differences between men and women. I'm totally prepared to agree that women are more emotionally intelligent,

but they also have excellent analytical minds. And men, I'm prepared to agree, certainly have deep emotions, and they have a degree of emotional intelligence as well. So these things that are manifest in societal differences, Like you mentioned the bonding of infants to their mothers, preferentially to fathers, that's a well-established fact. And we know that. Now, how much of that is due to a pre-wired bias in the brain,

and how much is social conditioning that women have always been encouraged from early girlhood to think of themselves as caregivers and mothers who are empathetic with their children. How much of that is social conditioning and how much of it is hardwired in the brain is a subject that I'm not qualified to make a decision about, but that is an area of active research. And I would say that most neuroscientists believe that all of human behavior, emotion, and experience involves elements of cognitive processing that women and men both have. It may well be that women have more of one kind and more of another. And it's probably due to a combination of neurological and sociological factors.

Yeah. It's interesting to see how all these brains are designed and how they memory stuff. Sometimes I just sit around and just go, like sometimes I have these weird, as I'm falling asleep, I'll have these weird sort of pseudo dreams. I'm not fully asleep, but I'll have these. kind of weird movies that my brain will play. And some of them are really complex. I'm just like, where the hell did that come from? What are you up to, man? I started to wonder what he's up to in his fair time. It's kind of like AI. It's kind of scaring me at this point. He's awakening.

But weird things. And sometimes they're so detailed and so intact. And I can find no connection with them to anything I've ever thought or experienced consciously or a video movie I watched or anything I've ever imagined. And you're just like, that came out of left. feel? What the hell kind of crazy shit are you up to back there when I'm asleep, man? I'm afraid to fall asleep now. But it's interesting, the creativity and what goes into the brain. And it's just like this, I don't know, was it a five-pound lump of grave ass. It's kind of like jello or something. So now early in your book, you pose a question of whether memory is a thing in a place or a Whether memory is a thing in a place or a process in a population.

And that's what I was using the analogies of the Christmas tree lights about. If one light comes on representing a cell where a memory is deposited, it might be just one molecule or a molecular source. switch or a microanitomical change, but if it occurs at just one point in the brain, then that is a thing and a place. But if the other scenario is the case where it takes a whole string of lights to light up, then that's a process in a population. And as I said earlier, a process in a population is closer to the truth.

But we have to assume that when the brain stores and memories, some change happened. It probably happens over a quite dispersed area of the brain, eventually, when it gets into permanent storage form. Wow. Yeah, the answer to that puzzle was that a process in a population, closer to the truth than a singular thing in a specific place. Let me ask you this. We've had a lot of psychologists on the show, PhD people and stuff, and not everyone's always right all the time, no matter what they agree.

I don't have any agrees, and I'm wrong all the time. But one thing they've talked about, or one thing they try and do when they help people that have trauma or attachment to a memory that's very bad, It's very emotionally overpowering. It's maybe some really deep-seated trauma. One thing they do is they do some different techniques, and I won't get into those, but they do different techniques to help you, to help people detach the emotion from the memory.

And in so doing, I believe they're able to lessen the impact that that trauma impact, that that things had and empower people to now they're in control of that thought and they've somehow minimized the emotion. What are your thoughts on that going on with psychologists and different things? Yeah, yes. I think that that is a form of therapy that some people are being treated with now. And as I indicated earlier, the objective or one use of basic science research on mechanisms of memory is to develop a more direct and efficient way of altering those memories, getting rid of the bad ones. But it's a slippery slope if we start fooling around with the brain too much. much because memories, memories matter because they are a history of who and what we are.

If we lose our memory, we lose that history and we lose a sense of who we've been. and for us what the meaning of life is. I mean, if there is a meaning to life, our memories are the version of that that is personally meaningful to us. Yeah. Let me ask you this. Some people, it seems like a lot of people don't recollect anything,

remember anything prior to about two to three years old. me I don't remember much until about two or three and but some people they're like oh I remember being born I remember I remember everything right for the very beginning and I'm like that's kind of weird I don't know that I want to remember when I was born I don't I don't want to know what that trauma was like maybe that's my whole problem in life I was birth in this world I'm like what the fuck of this shit what this place is a mess anyway the this may I blocked out the first two years so is that Is it true? Do most people, can people really remember what's that all about? I don't know of any credible evidence that humans can remember anything before the age of about two plus or minus half a year.

When people say they remember being born or they remember things when they were a few months old, it's, I think, more likely that they're remembering what their parents told them was going on at that time. And they integrate that into their personal history, and they think that that really happened to them, whereas it's just something that was described for them. Yeah. It's interesting how that works, because I've seen people that have convinced themselves with a certain memory. and you'll talk to them and you're like, no, it's not the way I went down. And it's interesting. Some people can just make up their own bullshit.

Exactly. And that's why one of the strongest messages I wanted to convey in writing this book is that memories are not chiseled in stone. And we have to beware of the fact that memories can change. for good and bad. And if we get into the technology of being able to alter our memories, then there's potential for good and there's potential for bad, just as with any technology.

Yeah. I'm thinking of me too. There was a lot of people who remembered things from 20 to 40 years earlier. They never filed police charges, but they were claiming this has happened to me. And one of the problems with that whole Me Too thing is when you, when you cite, I have this memory of you doing something bad to me 20 years ago. I can't bring witnesses.

Witnesses are probably gone and passed away. Or I can't bring witnesses or video or anything to that thing. I know guys now that they're keeping storage of consent sheets and videos. And they're going to keep them forever because you just never know, 20 years or 40 years from now, people can make up stuff. And you kind of have to wonder on some of these things, if the memory is accurate or if it's something they convince themselves because they told everybody for so many years or that's the way they spun it to get out of self-accountability for what they did in the relationship.

I've certainly met lots of people who created their own private Idaho. And if you were in that experience with them at their private Idaho, you could be like, yeah, that's not how that went down. That's not. But it's convenient. you've made, you've played victim and made everybody else at fault when you were the one with the dagger. It may be, it's interesting, you're not going to be thinking after this about how people can fabricate or edit memories to fit whatever narrative they want a story they want to tell and how they

can tell it to believe it. I've known some people that were extreme narcissists and they constantly told lies over and over again, and they would spend these. Exactly. They would spin so many lies. the lives were stacked up on each other. And it almost seemed like the repetition was what helped them reframe or re-edit their memory. Well, it does. It does. It becomes embedded and it becomes embedded in their memory. And it's just as real as if it had really happened.

Wow. That's interesting. It's kind of scary, actually. We just mega, whatever I want to believe. Some people narcissistically are just trying to get you. to are trying to reframe your memory and bullshit you that things weren't as horrible as they were. And you're like, no, they really were because I really remember them because I was the victim. But thanks for trying to make yourself the victim. So what do you hope people come away with when they read your book? What do you hope they learn and get an idea from?

I hope that readers of my book will come away with a deeper understanding of what memory entails. I hope that they will have a sense of how science really works, that it is a laborious, sometimes chaotic process that involves both steps forward and backwards, but that eventually lead to a true account of nature. I hope that the book reminds people that scientists, like all of us, are affected by the social military experience, both the pleasure of successes and the pain of failures in their personal and professional lives. And then finally, I hope that they take away the message that facts matter, that science is essential for a technological society to continue to progress in a positive way, and that scientists are an asset to the nation and to humankind overall.

You need that science there, eh? Because the last time I checked, other stuff doesn't work quite as effectively. But yeah, the brain is really, it's evidently it's one of the things we still don't understand a lot about or people used to say that. Did they still say that? I'm kind of old, so that's why. I have a memory of it. Yeah, I don't know, I think we got it.

So as we go out, give people a final pitch out, Lewis, to pick up your book and find out more about you and your dot org. They can, let's see, here's a picture of the book, and here is my website, which will lead you to places where you can obtain the book and find out more about me. all right all right sounds good so so thanks very much Chris I've enjoyed

our discussion here thank you you beat me to it so thank you for coming on the show we really appreciate it it's been a delight to have you and now you're just going to

I'm going to be thinking about memory and brains and all that stuff and can your book help my brain remember stuff sharper are there techniques in there maybe they do advise or maybe I just need to

attach some battery cables to my ears? Get it to work better? I'm sorry. What was the last thing, Chris? I was just doing a joke about, does your book teach me how to make my memory better, like maybe attaching battery cables to my ears with that help? Okay. Okay, I'm just sitting you up with jokes, man.

People read the book. Folks, order up his book wherever fine books are sold. It's called a haystack full of needles. A memoir on research. I'm sorry, let me recut that. A haystack full of needles. A memoir of research on mechanisms of memory in the decades that defined neural science. Thanks for us for us for us to readies.com, Fortresschus Chris Foss.

LinkedIn.com Fortresschus Christfoss, 1 on the TikTok, getting all those crazy places in it. Be good to each other. Stay safe. We'll see you next. You've been listening to the most amazing, intelligent podcast ever made to improve. your brain and your life. Warning. Consuming too much of the Chris Walsh Show podcast can lead to people thinking you're smarter,

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