The Chris Voss Show - The Chris Voss Show Podcast – How to Sleep Like a Caveman: Ancient Wisdom for a Better Night’s Rest―Based on the Evolutionary Science of Sleep from Saber-Toothed Tigers to Modern Insomnia by Merijn van de Laar

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

How to Sleep Like a Caveman: Ancient Wisdom for a Better Night's Rest―Based on the Evolutionary Science of Sleep from Saber-Toothed Tigers to Modern Insomnia by Merijn van de Laar https://www.amazon.com/How-Sleep-Like-Caveman-Ancient/dp/0063430177 Sapiens meets Why We Sleep in an evolutionary romp through the science of sleep—and how we can get better rest—by one of the world’s leading sleep scientists. We spend roughly a third of our lives in bed, but for millions of us, not all of that time is spent sleeping. We strive for eight hours per night, only to lie awake thanks to stress, our ever-present devices, a new baby, or that 4pm coffee you thought you needed. As sleep scientist and recovering insomniac Merijn van de Laar shows, we’re hardly the first to experience this. When homo sapiens evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago, when saber-toothed tigers were their biggest nighttime worry, wakefulness served to protect one’s tribe at night. Research shows these episodic sleep patterns even gave our ancestors an evolutionary advantage. We can look to their example for guidance in improving our sleep health, too: how our sleep patterns change as we age, the benefits of communal sleep, the importance of environmental factors such as temperature and light. While our myriad gadgets may distinguish us from early humans, understanding the ways our brains evolved to rest can chart the course toward a better night’s sleep. Drawing from emerging science, archeological research into our ancestors’ habits, and close observation of contemporary hunter-gatherer cultures, How to Sleep Like a Caveman explains everything from why we sometimes jerk awake at night—likely a remnant of having slept in trees—to why our efforts to “optimize” our sleep schedules might just be a fool’s errand. The result is a surprising, accessible new framework for thinking about sleep—the way we were designed to.

You wanted the best. You've got the best podcast, the hottest podcast in the world. The Chris Voss Show, the preeminent podcast with guests so smart you may experience serious brain bleed. The CEOs, authors, thought leaders, visionaries and motivators. Get ready, get ready, strap yourself in. Keep your hands, arms, and legs inside the vehicle at all times. Cause you're about to go on a monster education rollercoaster

with your brain. Now, here's your host, Chris Voss. I'm host Chris Voss here from the ChrisVossShow.com. Beautiful. And there are a lot of things that makes a picture. Welcome to the big show. As always, the Chris Voss Show is a family that loves you, but doesn't judge you, at least not as harshly as the rest of the world because you're here for 16 years, 2400 episodes.

You've been learning, growing, changing, becoming better. Yeah, I sound like that intro to the $6 million man show. We can make it better. We have the technology. You have the technology here, folks. The podcast, the Chris Foss Show podcast. Refer it to your family, friends, and relatives. Go to Goodreads.com, Fortress Chris Foss, LinkedIn.com, Fortress Chris Foss. Chris Foss won on the TikTokity.

I don't know why I'm doing that, but, and also ChrisFossFacebook.com. Anyway, guys, we have an amazing young man on the show. We're going to talk about his hot new book, This Off the Shelves, that probably applies to everybody these days, especially living in 2025, which we are right now, if you're watching this 10 years from now on YouTube, like you guys do. So this is a book that everyone needs at one point in life, I guess,

or at least the older you get, it seems like you need it. His book is entitled, How to sleep like a caveman ancient wisdom for a better night's rest based on the evolution evolutionary science of sleep from saber tooth tigers to modern insomnia out may 20th 2025 we have merijn vandelaar on the show with us. Did I get that right sir? Yeah that's right. Yeah, yeah. I want to make sure we know he's hit that right on the head when we try and get that out there. He is a sleep scientist and psychologist with years of experience treating sleep disorders. He lives in the Netherlands and it's his first book that's been published in over 20 languages.

Welcome to show sir. How are you? Yeah I'm fine thanks. Yeah it's it's late in the Netherlands and it's his first book that's been published in over 20 languages. Welcome to show sir. How are you? Yeah, I'm fine. Thanks. Yeah, it's it's late in the evening here in Holland, but yeah, I'm still awake I you know, I tried to be a sleep scientist too once but my girlfriend said she was sick of me Just sleeping in bed all day and not getting out of bed and playing video games and then I had to go get a job and playing video games and then I had to go get a job. Hey, the rent had to be paid. And, but I was like, no, I'm trying to be a sleep scientist, mom. Yeah. You were just doing the practical,

practical exams then. Yeah. That's it. It was the novice level. So you're expert level. So give us a dot coms where can people find you on the interwebs. Yeah. So it's a Marine from the last.com. I think we have to put that in the show notes because I think nobody will be able to, uh, to, uh, make, make, make notes of that, but

it's marine van de laag dot com and there you can find anything about the book and about me. Yep. So give us a 30,000 overview. What's inside your book? Yeah. Well, I think, I think the first thing that is in the book is that it's very important to look at the physiology of sleep so how is sleep made up and why do we sleep like we sleep because there are a lot of things in sleep that are very interesting like you have different phases of sleep, deep sleep, REM sleep, light sleep and why is it configured this way? And what I tried to do is I try to look at the evolution and to explain why we have these different phases and these different cycles in sleep and why the

most important sleep, the deep sleep actually comes first in the night. So there's a lot about physiology. There's a lot about insomnia and why people have insomnia, why they experience it and what they can do about it. So tell, give us a background on you. How did you grow up, what influenced you and how did you get into this business? Why was there, was there a cathartic moment where you're like, I need to study some sleep eh?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, I was studying psychology and I was enjoying it a lot and especially, uh, the course about evolution was very interesting to me. So what I did is I studied after I did the psychology study, I started working as a psychologist and I started specializing in sleep. So I started working at a sleep center in Holland called Kemperhage and I worked there for nine years, also did my PhD there and studied insomnia and also suffered from insomnia myself a couple of years. So I think on one hand the own experience studied insomnia and also suffered from insomnia myself a couple of years. So, I think on one hand, the own experience with insomnia, on the other hand, the interest in evolutionary psychology really combined in this job that I do right now.

Pete Slauson And it seems like, currently if I'm wrong, but it seems like this, there's a theme I'm seeing kind of discussions about sleep that when you get older, it seems harder to fall asleep and all that sort of stuff. What's that about? Yeah, you see that. I mean, sleep ages, and I often say you get wrinkles in your skin, but you also get the wrinkles in your sleep. So what happens is you wake up more often usually when you get older, this already happens after 40. So when you age, this gets worse. And this also, I described in the book, this also has an evolutionary reason probably because the older people were not able to hunt and gather anymore that much as the younger ones. So they had a different

role during the night. They had to be awake to make sure that everybody was safe during the night. So probably why older people sleep less deeply than younger. Pete Slauson Really? So, it was like a safety concern? Jorgens Yeah. Yeah. Pete Slauson Wow. Jorgens It's called the Sentinel Hypothesis. Yeah. Pete Slauson The Sentinel Hypothesis. You know, I heard this thing recently, I don't know if it's true, because it was on the internet. You know how that works, right? But there was something that someone said, one of the talking heads, you know, they're always doing the cruise around there on the, you know, they're doing the circuit of podcasts. And so,

you're kind of always like, who's the professional? Who's not? I'm not going to figure this all out, right? And they were saying that men and women have different things that they monitor for. So a woman tends to notice a crying baby in the house, uh, or you distress baby crying baby, whatever you want to call it. She knows his things in the house sound wise that, that, you know, she's got to respond to as a mother. And then men, they don't tend to notice those things, but they tend to hear what's going on in the outside. They're like security driven, listen, instead of baby driven, listen, they're, they're security, uh, driven, listen. Uh, you think there's any truth to that? Maybe? I don't know.

Well, I think so. I mean, especially if you look at young children, then you see that women are usually much more sensitive to the crying of the baby and they wake up more often than men usually. And the thing is that if you're asleep, you're still a bit awake. So there's always a filter going on. You're always filtering things from the outside, which is also very important because it keeps you safe. I mean, you may be asleep, but everything around you still restrain it. So everything comes in, but you have a big filter. And that keeps you asleep. And in women, a crying baby just goes past as the filter. So it just gets in and that's why they wake up.

Wow. That's really interesting. You know, a lot of women that complain or, you know, you see it online with like, uh, you know, the man never wakes up when you know, doing the thing. But you know, and I'm no scientist, let's put it that way, folks, we don't like to, we don't like to share anything on the, we don't like to platform in the Chris Voss show. That's might be, you know, don't start a cult with it, please. That's basically it. But yeah, I remember, I remember seeing that and I was just like, wow, okay.

Maybe there is some truth to that. I think a lot of things we experience around sleep have a very distinct reason and often it comes back to evolution, definitely. So maybe now that I'm getting older, my body is trying to keep me awake for something, even though I'm a single guy. I don't have babies in the house and I don't have a family. I'm protecting my dog. But I think my dog is protecting me more than anything.

She's got it down more than I do. So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. I think that when you age, the thing is that we have this genetic makeup and this genetic makeup is built on 10,000s of years of evolution. So it doesn't really matter if you're single or if you're married or whatever, your sleep is just, it's like innate, it's built inside based on 10,000s of years of evolution. And it still works the same way as it did 10,000 years ago.

And that's what we've often lost touch with in the modern world. So we really think that sleep is something that you can put on and put off. And if you look at it in the context of evolution, it's much more logical what happens during the night. Much more logical attempts during the night. So how long have you been counseling people and working on this project of becoming a sleep expert and master I think I was 25 when I started as a sleep scientist and I'm 46 so 21 years And I think I treated up to seven to eight thousand people with insomnia in the years

With different severity. So yeah people with very severe insomnia People only experience insomnia for a couple of months, but also I've seen people who've experienced insomnia for like 20 to 25 years. So, uh, yeah. Wow. That sounds like my wife. She's always, she's had a headache for the last 25 to 30 years. Maybe you can fix that too. I'm not married. So that's a very joke. So what are some aspects, I mean, you're giving instructions on how to sleep like a caveman. Of course, we need people to buy the book to find out how, but maybe some, what are

some indicators that you have, you need to improve the quality of your sleep by reading your book, basically. What are some things that might be going on? I know there's a... What's that thing with the Darth Vader mask people wear? Tell us about some of those things that might... This book is for you if you have these problems. J.S. BOOTH Yeah, I think the first thing is if you're very worried about your sleep and if you experience anxiety during the night and you're ruminating about sleep and if you experience anxiety during the night and you're ruminating about sleep and you can't, yeah, you are very tired during the day experiencing complaints

during the day. But I think it's very important to read the book because it can really help you to recover your sleep in like 21 days. And I think that one of the first things that you can do and that you can read in the book is you can get knowledge about sleep. Because I think a lot of knowledge that is spread on social media, on media is not right. There's a lot of things going on there. And especially the eight hour myth, the seven to nine hour myth is going around

that everybody should sleep between seven to nine hours, that you might get sick if you sleep less, but also that being awake during the night is actually very bad for you while there is actually no evidence for the fact that being awake is in itself problematic. And one of the things I describe in the book is that the Hazard tribe, who lives in Tanzania, they are awake for two and a half hours every night on average, and they don't experience a sleep problem and these people still live within the same circumstances we did when

we were cavemen. So I think that being awake during the night is very, very normal. And I think that's also one of the things I described in the book. Yeah. How come I feel run down? Like right now I have, I've run out of four hours of sleep. I went to the gym last night and I couldn't get to sleep because I was jacked up a little and I was so run out on four hours of sleep. I went to the gym last night and I couldn't get to sleep because jacked up a little and I was so run on four hours of sleep. I feel like I've been hit by a bus. I don't feel fully recovered

What am I doing wrong if I can't? Yeah for us like is there something there's something Right. I slept four hours. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's very short. There are there are not many people who can you can get by on four hours. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's very short. There are, there are not many people who can, you can get by on four hours. That's We, you know, we pumped some coffee and caffeine energy me and jacking up, you know, yeah, but, uh, I mean, so how do I, how is there a way that I can replicate what that tribe does at, at, you know, I'd love to only sleep for that amount of time and not be murdering people the next day. But I'm one of those people that have a morning, you know, I have a, there's a sign on top of my espresso coffee. This is a, uh, you don't, you don't bother me until we've had coffee and I need, I need like at least five hours in the morning to become a human being. And then you, then you can talk to me. Like my girlfriends

know you don't go near me for the first like 12 hours of the day in the morning. Yeah. So it's a very important sign on your espresso cup then everybody has to keep out. Otherwise there's murder. And then we have the Skull coffee cup for the people across that boundary. So this is the last person who fuck with me for coffee. Well, the thing that strikes me is that you say that you slept for four hours, which is very short. So then I would like to know why do you sleep for four hours every night or... Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, sometimes. So how many hours do you sleep on average?

I try and sleep eight hours. If I don't get out hours to sleep over one or two periods, people are going to get people are going to die. And I don't even trust myself if if I'm not, you know, like right now, I could drive. I'm doing OK. Sometimes I'm ground down if I take two or three nights where I don't have, you know, fully asleep each night. And so like today, I'll I'll take a nap and pick up the other four hours. So I'll be fine once I get to that.

But, uh, I don't know. I mean, is that healthy or normal or, you know, there's sometimes where I'm just like, I'm not going to drive a car today because I'm just, I'm, I'm, I can tell I'm off my game and I'm just not going out. So what time do you usually get to bed? It depends. You know, I toss and turn a lot and I'll toss and turn like two or three hours. Like I'll just play there and sometimes just waiting for the edibles to kick in.

And usually when they kick in, that's when I kick out. Yeah. And so if you could sleep longer in the morning, could you sleep longer? You think? No, no, not with the schedule that we keep because most podcasts, you know, they want interviews during the day. Oh, yeah. So you can sleep in. It's not. Yeah. I've always been a night person. That maybe that's a good question for you. Is it really a truth to night people and day people? Like I have like werewolf energy at night. And it didn't help that I lived in Vegas for 20 years where everyone does shit at night

because that's when it's cool and you're not gonna catch fire when you leave the house. You do all your grocery shopping and everything late at night. Is there any truth to that or is that just kinda? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are different chronotypes. And I think that one of the things that really comes to mind when I hear your story is that you're really a night person So that's the first thing

Which means that I mean I think you can go to bed You can try to go to bed at 10 o'clock at night and you won't sleep for a couple of hours, right? Yeah Yeah, I'll be tired but as soon as I lay down my brain goes we're not tired anymore and then. And then I'm like, okay, well, fuck you. I'm going to get back up. My brain's like, no, we're tired. Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference between being tired and being sleepy, actually. So what would Corona you have different chronotypes? And you have? Yeah, yeah, you have like morning types of evening types, and maybe you're more of a night person. And what happens if a night person goes to bed very early, then they might be tired because there's a lot going on in their life, but they're not sleepy yet. Being sleepy is a different thing. And it has to do with adenosine, which is in your brain. And this usually builds up and in people with, with a late biological clock, so a late prototype, yet it can sometimes be too early to go to bed.

So maybe you might benefit from going to bed later, but I don't know what time, they usually fall asleep? About three or four AM. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Have you ever tried melatonin? Oh yeah. Yeah. Like fucking candy. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it worked for like 30 days or something. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then, yeah, sleeping pills, same way. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah sleep pills, yeah, they might work for like a week. Yeah. Double. In fact, I was taking double melatonin and then I was like, Oh, you're not supposed to oopsie. Yeah. But what happens is usually people, if they use melatonin, I think the first of all, it's always very important if you before you use melatonin to consult a physician, but always, if you use melatonin, I see a lot of people who use it too late.

So they use it like half an hour before going to bed, which is much too late. So usually what people advise is like taking two and a half to three hours before going to bed or before wanting to sleep, because then it can kick in after a couple of hours and you get this build up in your blood. Uh, that's what usually happens when melatonin is used in, in practice. So sometimes it can help to take it a little bit earlier. And sleeping pills, if you're suffering from being a late chronotype, then sleeping pills won't do anything for you or maybe temporary. So that's why I think it didn't work on you.

Yeah. And you're snoring. Do you have breathing stops or not? Yeah, I do. I'm kind of an overweight dude. And so I have, you know, I get that snoring. You know, my mom gives me a bad time all the time. Then I probably get to probably she, you know, she has that Darth Vader mask thing, I call it. But every time I talk to one of those people that have these Darth Vader masks, I even have a friend who's got an implant in his chest.

The Inspire, I think it is or something like that. They're never getting a good sleep either. Like they're full of shit half the time. They'll always, they'll always argument. They're like, oh, Chris, it really works. It really helps me. And then like two days later, I'll see a Facebook post going, yeah, I'm still not sleeping.

I'm so tired. You're like, you're so full of shit. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm I'm on your stuff. Like, yeah, you so full of shit. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm on her yourself. Like, uh, yeah, you're full of shit. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it depends. I think if you're suffering from sleep apnea, then you see that the, what happens in sleep apnea is actually your, your body gets too little oxygen. So it wakes you up during the deep sleep. And that's why you wake up and this,

this is not good for your health and it really can give you insomnia as well and in some cases it doesn't but some cases does and what you see is that because the oxygen drops that really has a bad effect on your health as well. So you have like a higher cardiovascular risk and higher chance of obesity and that kind of stuff. But if you use the CPAP, so this is the machine then you usually see that the apnea go down, which is actually better for your health. But I mean, I think if I listen to your story, then there might be a couple of problems, actually. Well, the first one is me. Yeah, so being a late person, late sleeper, maybe sleep apnea, we don't know, but this can be checked by a doctor.

Pretty sure. Yeah. And, and probably maybe insomnia to go with that because you're tossing and turning and you can't sleep at a sleep in the morning. So I would definitely see a physician if I were you. All right. Well, I've seen them and they have seen me and even to that. The let me ask you this. There was a question I had for you. Where'd it go? The now, what do you think of like these other sleep assist

other than the Darth Vader machines? Like one of the things I've had for I think since 2020 is the eight bed, the eight sleep bed. And I love it. It's my number one, I can't live without product that I own. Like it is next to probably the phone and my computer. It's the number one product I cannot live without. And unless people want to die and I want to go to jail for murdering, don't do that folks. The, what are your thoughts on some of these things? Like I do my, my eight sleep bed and there are other competitors in the market. I,

I don't want to, I don't mean to do an eight sleep commercial here, but it is really good. And, uh, but there's other, there's other products on the market, you know, like these beds that will cool and heat. I've had some people say that cooling is the best way to fall asleep, to have your bed super cold. But what's nice is it does give me some data and feedback. It gives me your report. It's got an AI system on it that will adjust. This is a commercial for 8 Sleep, isn't it? It's got an AI that will adjust. It tells me what my REM here is. So it says my quality of sleep last night was 55%. I flunked in school and I flunked in sleeping. I can't win.

28% consistency, 4.39 hours. Says I got deep sleep, 48 minutes REM 39. So it monitors all that. And it's supposed to adjust, it's supposed to have an AI that adjusts my stuff. I got two hours and 35 minutes of snoring. That's a lot. Yeah. What do you think about some of these different features? Do these help or are these not helping? I think that that trackers and especially if you look at commercial trackers like these things that are in the bed or you can use smartwatches or these things, they're actually not really

reliable. That's the thing about it. So they give a score, they give a sleep score, they also give a score on REM sleep, on deep sleep and how much you've had. If you compare them to polysynchrography, which is a sleep research that you do in a sleep center, then you see that they're actually quite bad at estimating how much you've been in a certain sleep phase. What they can do usually is they can estimate how long you've slept on average, but they're very bad at distinguishing between different sleep phases.

Yeah. Well, that's interesting to know because, you know, I do notice inconsistencies like I have a galaxy watch that you know supposed to measure your sleep And I think the phone does some of its own Google fit or something and Yeah, I've noticed there's an inconsistency of data there. So I'm like, I don't know I mean my my data is I didn't kill anyone before my coffee in the morning. So it's a good day That's a good day. That's a good sign. That's a good night. Yeah. That's what the judge tells me. Next week I get one of my six ankle monitors bracelets off.

What have we talked about that you want to tease out to people to get them to pick up the book? Yeah. I think the book contains a lot of things, a lot of information on sleep. It also book contains a lot of things, a lot of information on sleep. It also gives you details on how to improve your sleep schedule by using a sleep log. So you can use a sleep log that you fill in yourself, which is actually very subjective, but it really works. We see in practice and also in studies that it's a really good indication of how your sleep quality is, which is often subjective. So you use the book, you use the sleep blog, and you try to see whether you improve in your sleep. And what we usually see is that, especially sleep restriction, which is one of the most important methods to improve sleep, if you do that, then within

a couple of weeks, you see that 80 to 85% of people actually improve their sleep within within a couple of weeks. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a very strong method. That's really, there's a lot of research on that for the past decades. And it's a very good method. And in short, I mean, what does it mean? I was talking about adenosine. It's adenosine is making you sleepy. And what you do is you try to build up Adenosine to make you sleepier. So a lot of people who have insomnia, they're very tired but they're not sleepy. So we use this system in our brain to create more Adenosine. It builds up and then it creates nights in which you fall asleep faster and you have less problems of being awake during the night. So it has

an effect on both the falling asleep but also maintaining sleep and I think that's one of the strengths of the book that it really goes into that method and how you can do it yourself. So I can retrain myself from bad habits of you know one of the other problems is screens you You know, if people watch TV before they go to bed, that blue light, is that the bigger problem as they say it is, you know, watching screens before you go to bed and blue light? Yeah, there's a lot of research on that for the past 10 years. And I think that if we look at 10 years ago, then there was a lot to do about the blue light and screens and the mobile phones and there was a lot of light that was really keeping us awake. But now we know that

the light that's emitted from the screen from a mobile phone is actually not that intense. So yeah, you usually need like about 10 lux to disturb your biological clock. And if you look at the mobile phone, if you if you have it in the bed, you're looking at a mobile phone, you get three locks, so it's, it's a lot less than the 10 locks that really, yeah. So that there, this is also something that's like a myth and it's, it's, it's been put there down like in, in social media, what we see is that it's actually not true anymore.

I mean, there was research that said it might be, and now we see that it's not not true. Actually. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's a TV. The TV is I've actually advised people to watch TV in the in the bedroom, because sometimes when people are very busy in their heads, they have a like, like lots of thoughts going around, then, then sometimes the distraction from the TV can actually help you to fall asleep quicker. I've had patients who were on the couch watching TV, falling asleep, and then they went to bed and they couldn't sleep anymore. So yeah, sometimes I have, I advised using a television. Wow. Well, that's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. I've always, you know, I have a bad habit of watching fricking TikTok before going to bed. I really do. I have a, yeah, it's a bad habit, let's put it that way. And so sometimes I sit there

in doom scroll or whatever you want to call it through TikTok. And then I wake up and it's 4am or I look up and it's 4am and I'm like, yeah. So you were asleep. Yeah. And it depends on what you do. I mean, if you're on the phone and you're, you're replying your work mail or that, that's not a good thing. If you're looking at horror movies, watching horror movies, that's not a good thing. But maybe just doing things that are really calming your brain, then it's okay. Pete Slauson Watching horror movies before bedtime. Jorgen Lennon Yeah, I do that. Pete Slauson Of what's underneath the bed. Yeah, that sounds like a great,

peaceful way to go. Yeah. Do that. Oh man. Well, uh, so tell us about, do you have offerings on your website? Do you consulting coaching? What are, what are some things maybe people can find there that you can maybe work with them personally one-on-one? I don't know. Yeah, I do. I mean, I don't work with, with individual patients anymore.

So I, I had my own practice after working at the sleep center, but now I do consultations. I do presentations for companies and I also do consultations for professionals like psychologists and psychiatrists. So yeah, people can hire me for that kind of work. And I mean, that's something I really love to do. So yeah. Well, awesome sauce, man. The, yeah, and so, people can reach out to there. So, give us the final pitch as we go out and where people can order the book. Jorrit Jorrit Yep. Well, you can order the book at amazon.com. And I think that, well, the final

pitch, I think that if you want to know more about sleep, if you want to be less stressed about sleep, and if you want to have some practical advice, how to improve your insomnia, that's really science-based. Then the book is this, the book is, the book is a good thing for you. Well, thank you very much for coming to the show. We really appreciate it, man. Thanks. Yep.

Thank you. And I'm going to read the book cause I need, I need some sleep. I need as much help as I can freaking get. So thanks for tuning in. Order of the book where refined books are sold. It is entitled how to sleep like a caveman, ancient wisdom for a better night's rest based on evolutionary science of sleep from saber tooth tigers to modern insomnia.

So how to sleep like a cadence. Does that mean I teach take a caveman club and just knock myself over the head? So you can do that. I don't think that's very healthy. Yes Brain hemorrhage. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in go to good reason I calm fortress Chris Foss LinkedIn calm fortress Chris Foss Chris was one of the tick-tock and all those crazy places in it be good to each other Stay safe. We'll see you guys next time

And that should have us out good job, man